Behind the Bastards - Part One: Alfred Hugenberg: The Elon Musk of Weimar Germany

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

Robert sits down with Amanda Montell to talk about Alfred Hugenberg, a German industrialist who made Hitler's rise to power possible for some very familiar reasons.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, Robert here. We had a little mic error for the first couple of minutes of the episode. My audio is going to sound a little shitty for literally like three or four minutes, then it'll be back to normal. Apologies. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where I am eternally frustrating my business partner and the only person who truly cares about me. Sophie Lichterman.

Sophie, why do I do the things that I do? Why do I taunt you when you're just trying to help make me a successful person? What's wrong with me? You like to self-sabotage. I love self sabotaging Oh my god, you do and like I recognize that so when you do it I still I still help anyways because I'm rooting for you. So, you know you

Speaking of self sabotaging, you know who doesn't self sabotage God I hope not. They're a very successful person our wonderful guest today today, Amanda Montel, author of the book, Cultish, which I've cited on the show. We've all read. Yeah, we've all read the book. If you haven't, what are you doing? It definitely influenced the Zizzians episodes, influenced a lot of my work. Amanda, thank you so much for being here. Hey, it's a joy and a pleasure. And you know, so many of my, sounds like a cult listeners are obsessed with your show. That's how I learned about it from them.

So I'm stoked. We love cults over here. It's hard. It's one of those things where it's both just objectively, cult leaders have the highest odds of any group of bad people of being incredibly entertaining, right? I know, I know. Especially when your definition of cult leader is as loose as mine, loosey

goosey. Yeah, endless, endless entertainment. I was thinking also, like, as soon as people stop exploiting others, our podcasting careers are just gonna tank. Well, the good news is I do have several generations of people, several hundred generations of people being shitty to each other to get through stuff. Oh, so true. No, your career stability is like, unlock. We haven't even gone to Nixon yet. Oh my God. No, you have, you're basically a tenured professor in the program of bastard studies. I just realized I sent Sophie the wrong script

because I was up until 6 a.m., but she's got the right one now and so do I. Wow, Robert, Jesus Christ. What could be better to do today when we have Amanda Montell on than an episode that's not really about a cult, except for everything, I mean, I guess episode that's not really about a cult, except for everything. I mean, I guess if you wanna call the Nazis a cult,

it's a little bit about a cult, but he wasn't even really a Nazi. For sure. Oh, okay. He was just, he was actually kind of, usually like when you're talking about like a German who was like prominent in the early thirties, and you say like, he wasn't a Nazi.

You're saying it to be like, because he was like some sort of hero, right? Or someone who was trying to do the right thing, you know, in the middle of this dark period. The guy we're talking about today is a man named Alfred Hugenberg. And he wasn't a Nazi in a way that makes him kind of worse than the Nazis.

Holy shit, oh my God, I'm pumped. Okay, I said this at the beginning before we started recording, but like, please don't apologize that we're not doing a co-leader as you can imagine. I'm like kind of sick of it. But I'm on a World War II kick. I mean, actually it's been an extended kick.

It's been an extended kick. So I'm, is it appropriate to say like, I'm pumped to talk about? Oh, yeah. No. No. We all. This Hugenberg fellow. We love the big dub dub dose. And this is Hugenberg is number one, one of the key guys in making the Nazi regime happen. Although, again, he's not a Nazi and he hates them.

He hates them. OK, because most Nazis are kind of poor for most of the period of time. And he is a rich dude. This is Alfred Hugenberg, it would be fair to call him the Elon Musk of Weimar, Germany. That's the first thing that came to mind. That is the first thing that came to fucking mind. Because like Elon, you know, he's playing ball,

but you know that he just disdains the shit. No, he thinks they're pitiful. He thinks they're like small potatoes. Allegedly, in my opinion. I don't know. I don't know what's going on in that noggin of his. Thank God. But that's the first thing that came to mind.

Oh, goody. No one ever has. So I guess let's just get into this. Cause it's one of those things, when it comes to his early life, not a super Elon early life, when it comes to his role in the Nazi regime, it's almost beat for beat exactly what Elon has done. Right to the point where like Elon is now,

it looks like getting edged out of Doge. There's a number of reports that Trump is kind of tired of him. He said that he's stepping back. It's all like all of that, but it's gonna be an interesting history of like a German piece of shit that like doesn't sound all that much like Elon

and then he's going to get in power and it's like, oh wow, these guys, was Elon just like cribbing off this fucker's notes? It's the same story. It's so funny. Oh my God. I'm so excited. Again, I'm not sure if that's the right adjective, but like on the edge of my seat, on the tips

of my toes. I get giddy when I get a new Hitler book in the mail, so I get it You know, oh Good. Okay, is that a problem? Sure I feel really free. I feel really safe. Yeah, this is a safe place for for us Probably should say Hitler stands, but oh My god, I just love third Reich knowers Oh my God. I just love- For us Third Reich knowers.

Yeah, I just, I, any, anytime someone can pull off saying the words Giddy and Hitler in one sentence, I'm like, we are cut from the same cloth, my friend. Hitler usually wasn't even giddy talking about Hitler. Didn't like being around himself. No, that's why he needed the crowds. Yeah, yeah. And this is, yeah, so we'll get into it.

Yeah, yeah. And this is, yeah, so we'll get into it. In Mississippi, Yazoo Clay keeps secrets. Seven thousand bodies out there or more. A forgotten asylum cemetery. It was my family's mystery. Shame, guilt, propriety. Something keeps it all buried deep deep until it's not. I'm Larisen Campbell and this is Under Yazoo Clay. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Breaking news tonight. The return of Tot Mom, it feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth.

TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg, please go away. Guys please don't miss this. Please join us. Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer.

He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 starting April 9th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Alfred Ernst Christian Alexander Hugenberg was born on June 19th, 1865 in the city of Hanover, which five years or so later would become the city of Hanover, Germany.

So again, he predates Germany by about five years. These are still just a bunch of states with Austria being, or with Prussia being the dominant one. Prussia. I was gonna say Prussia, and I was like, if that's wrong, I'm gonna sound so dumb, but it's all giving Prussian era. It's the goddamn Prussians,

and the goddamn Prussians, as a general rule, they just pants Austria, not far from the time that he's born, right? Which is why Austria is on, you know, anyway. So the fact that Germany becomes a thing is largely the work of a fella named Otto von Bismarck who orchestrated a series of wars, treaties, and alliances that culminated in the defeat of Napoleon III's France and the rise of the Prussian Kaiser as the emperor of all Germanic peoples, or at least like, because like Austria-Hungary is still separate,

most of the Germanic peoples, or at least like, because like Austria-Hungary is still separate, most of the Germanic peoples. In those heady early days of Imperial Germany, people get very excited about the idea of Germany, right? It's like fucking Pokemon when it starts off, right? Folks can't get enough of Germany. They are. What are they trying to catch? Other Germans, right?

Like that's the goal. We gotta get all the Germans. We got a catamari, all of the Germans into this thing. And that'll probably end well. Putting all the Germans in one box seems like it'll not lead to a series of world wars. So there's this kind of academic theory that's being promulgated, you know, around this time.

And obviously it's being promulgated before the formation of Germany, but it really gets supercharged afterwards and it's called pan-Germanism. And this is the assertion that Prussians and Bavarians and Saxons and Hanover, Hanoverians or whatever, shouldn't see themselves as different peoples

and certainly not as different nations, but as one united German people who have a manifest destiny to spread, not just in Europe, but across a grand colonial empire that ought to because Germans are a great people and they deserve what the British have. Right? There's a lot of this like, they're very insecure, the Germans in this period of time. Right? And so there's a lot of, why don't we have a lot of stuff? Well, they're very insecure, the Germans in this period of time, right? And so there's a lot of, why don't we have a lot of stuff?

Look at the British, the British have so much stuff, why don't we have any of this stuff? Come on guys, we gotta do the stuff. Here's a cult parallel, a cult leader is often someone with a little chip on their shoulder. He's like, hey, hey now. That is, that's every Kaiser to be honest. And it's certainly Otto von Bismarck. So they start being like, how are we going to create

a space for us Germans that's worthy of the name? Now, these kind of nascent ideas, even though they're starting to gain traction, they're not even initially, they're not universally popular and not even within Germany because among other things, these different German states have been fighting each other up until very recently, right? The Prussian Juncker class, which is kind of like

their nobility, has a bunch of ancestral privileges, right? That they maintain even once Germany becomes a thing and they're not eager to give those up, right? They're like, what, you mean, you mean I have to give up my power over those uncouth Bavarians? No! And the idea that-

Not everybody, so not everybody's down to be panned. No. Is what I'm gathering. No, not everybody. This is, this is like, there's a lot of conflict over this. Now the idea that Germany should expand colonially, largely in Africa, is less objectionable. People are very into this,

but they're also not great at it, right? They kind of get like the shit, their attitude and everyone's attitude, is they get kind of like the shitty pieces of Africa, like Namibia, a lovely place, but it's like a desert, right? It's not at the time seen as like, well, it doesn't have that much stuff for us to exploit

compared to like what we wanna be exploiting. And then looking at the British who own like fucking a third, like a shitload of Africa. And like, what the fuck guys? And so this is all what's going on as Alfred Hugenberg has his childhood. Now, unlike Elon, cause we've made that comparison, he is not born into wealth

or into really much privilege at all. Some people will say his upbringing was comfortable. That's not wildly untrue by the standards of the time, but we would not see this as a comfortable upbringing. And in fact, it's kind of close to Hitler's childhood. Alfred's dad is like a civil upbringing. And in fact, it's kind of close to Hitler's childhood. Alfred's dad is like a civil servant. He's a guy who works in the administrative state and he dies when Hugenberg is very young.

And Alfred is the only son in the family, which is also like Hitler. And the Hitler comparisons keep right on Hitlering because both young men also spend their adolescent years aware of the fact that their mom, since their dad is gone, is incredibly financially strained, right? They have this pension,

but none of the pensions are enough to take care of a family. And so they're like, they're in, it's a tremendously difficult time. And he can't not have been aware of the fact that they were poor now, right? So there are some other similarities between Hitler and Hugenberg.

Both young men were moved to create art in their early years. Hitler becomes an obsessive devotee of the opera and has ambitions as a painter. Meanwhile, Hugenberg is a really talented, creative writer with what biographer John Leopold described as, quote, "'A flair for literary expression. And you know, if you're a kid who's good at writing,

that can be a great way to express yourself and to work through some of your trauma and stuff. Alfred does not do any of that. Sure. Which is actually a real difference because Hitler throws himself whole hog into being an artist. He kind of sucks at it. Like he's not any good, but like tries.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's definitely giving like George W. Bush's painting endeavor. Yes. It's like, I don't know. Although the order of operations was flipped.

W entered painting after his political tenure. Maybe Hitler should have done that. I don't know. I gotta say, Hitler better painter than George W. Bush. Oh, okay, that's something. But less creative. Bush, there's a degree of where, okay, you're trying to creatively represent

how you feel about the people you're painting. Hitler was just sort of like, look at that building. What a great building. No, they were really mid landscapes, 100%. He had no point of view, at least in painting. No, they were like really mid landscapes, 100%. He had no point of view. At least in painting. No, no, exactly, exactly. Which probably says, anyway, people have tried

to psychoanalyze that shit for years. What's interesting to me about Hugenberg is that he has, and he'll write some books later, but he has like a literary skill. Like he could have been a fiction writer or something like that. And he forced- Okay, L. Ron Hubbard. Well, hey, I didn't say he could be anywhere

as good as LRH, you know. Okay, okay, okay, sorry. Sorry, jumping to conclusions. The man who could put a 50,000 word novel out in just seven hours of taking reds, just popping pills like you. I mean, we don't have the technology for someone to be as on amphetamines

as L. Ron Hubbard was back then, right? Yeah, so true. Yeah, it's it really is like a quite a special time and place. So, Hugenberg chooses a what's kind of interesting to me is that Hugenberg doesn't just sort of like fail to explore his potential as an artist, he purposefully forces himself not to write, right? Not to make art because he just like, that's silly

and that's like artists are poor and I am not going to be poor. So thereby I am going to make, I'm going to stop myself from exploring this thing that I'm good at in order to study the things that will make me good as a businessman, right? Huh. Yeah.

Okay, very self-flagellating. Interesting. Yes. Well, he, yeah, he very much is this like, I, this is not an appropriate thing for a man who wants to be rich to do. So even though this is what I want to do, I will stop myself from doing it. Oh no.

Cause he wants, he is going to be rich. That I will stop myself from doing it. Oh no. He is going to be rich. That's his goal from the start. He's going to make generational wealth. He wants his kids to help to part-own the Reich. He initially follows in his father's path. He studies the law and political economy in his secondary education. He's just very well in school, very bright guy.

He has from the beginning a flair for money, which would have been noticed by his instructors from the jump. They also would have been noticed his skill as a writer, but not for long because he decides to, quote unquote, suppress his skill in order to focus on his career. He talks about it as like, I made a choice to smother the artistic side of me so that I could make more money. Now, Alfred makes a couple of friends, but he has no real hobbies

outside of his business ambitions. And if he had anything we might term a pastime, it was thinking about the way that the state and the economy worked and how they ought to work, right? From a very early age, he's thinking about why do the economics of the time function this way and how can I change them to function in what I would term as better. While he's in college, he does his dissertation, which is his first book length publication. These are effectively books, and his first dissertation is titled Internal Colonization

in Northwest Germany, which he fetishes at the University of Strasbourg in 1891. In his book on Hugenberg, John Leopold writes, The un-doctoral candidate analyzed and detailed the role of the state in fostering economic growth. This volume depicted three themes which always undergird Hugenberg's political views. First, the state would have to assist the farmer and totally abandon a laissez faire approach to agriculture. Second, the farmer would have to act as an entrepreneur and form a capitalist bulwark

against Marxism. And third, Germany would have to expand its empire. So a couple of things are going on here. When we talk about internal colonization, Germany, right now, the Imperial Germany, includes a bunch of Poland, right? Now if you think back to your maps of Europe, Poles, not Germans. These are within the boundaries of the German state, a colonized people.

And Germany is sending German farmers into this occupied Poland, Polish territory to try to Germanify it, right? Like that's very much what's going on. And Hugenberg's writing about that, but he's also writing about like, there's not really enough Poland for us. Like maybe we could get some more, I don't know.

But also we need to be taking more of Africa because we need to continue like kind of shotgunning these farmers out. And we can't just sort of let the market take care of them because then they might not succeed. Like it's part of this, he's not really talking all that much in racial terms, although he is a racist, but he's very much the conclusions he comes to are identical to the ones Hitler is going to come to thinking through racial terms, which is interesting to me. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, do you think, do you, I actually wasn't aware that Germany was sort of like jealous of Britain's colonization efforts. Oh, and hugely jealous of Britain and hugely jealous of the US. Hitler is obsessed his whole life with like, why didn't this happen to us? Yeah, oh yeah.

Whoa. Yeah, I mean. Okay, okay. That's key context because if a whole nation, a fledgling nation, whatever, a nation that's trying to build itself, has a popular kid in school to look up to and feel jealous of, that can create, to use the school analogy,

some kind of in-cell inferiority complex type behavior, which is what I'm getting here. This is exactly what's happening to all of Germany. Yeah. And for an idea like how bad this is, we've talked about this in the show, Hitler grows up obsessed with the cowboy novels of a guy named Karl May, sorry.

Karl May is like the JK Rowling of his day. He is a children's book author who writes these books about like his experiences in the American West, fighting alongside Indians. And they're all lies. Like he's a con man, but Hitler is obsessed with this. He like mails copies of them to his generals on the Western front.

But all of Germany is in the late 1800s and early 1900s obsessed with U.S. like with Westward expansion, right? Yeah, rugged masculine expansionism, manifest destiny. Yeah. But also there's this feeling like, well, America is obviously destined to be a great nation. God has just given them this empty continent with no people on it that they get to take.

They're jealous. And Hugenberg, this is such a foundational aspect of German, like the German character, that like to this day, there are festivals to this guy in Germany and like people will do the equivalent of like US renfares where they're dressing up as Native Americans in Germany. That happened, this happens today.

Stop. No, yeah, it's a whole thing. It's a massive deal. Wait, I can't get over the irony of like us through the United States celebrating the European Renaissance and Europe celebrating like some fictionalized and surely very problematic and fucked up vision of the early days in the US.

It's truly the grass is always greener. The grass is always greener on the other side of the imperialism. Yes, exactly. So Hugenberg is not as obsessed with cowboys as Hitler, but he's very much obsessed with this idea of expansion. And he sees it as a matter of survival for the German race. And he writes that Germany will only quote,

"'Gain power and significance by taking it from others. And when he says others, he's talking a little bit about Europeans, but he's mostly thinking about Africa, right? Now, while I said earlier that Alfred was not a man with hobbies or a social life, he does nothing but work. I mean, he's getting a doctorate, which you do kind of have to be that way

to get a doctorate for a little while at least, right? If any of my friends who got doctorates are anything to go by. But he does have one extracurricular activity he starts to engage in around this time. The same year he published his dissertation, 1891, he helps to co-found a political club, the German General League. Now, you won't find a lot written about this incarnation of the organization, but historian Barry Jackish describes it as a political pressure group critical of the German government's foreign and domestic policy decisions.

Now, that's a definition so vague, it could refer to an organization of any ideology. So I should further say the specific ideological launching point of this group that Hugenberg starts with a bunch of other guys is the idea of pan-Germanism that I discussed at the opening of the episode. Jackish continues, The Pan-Germans were an openly expansionist organization that called for German colonies and spheres of influence throughout the world and the creation of a strong Navy to reinforce Germany's newly gained status abroad. In domestic politics, the League supported an authoritarian monarchy and opposed the

growth of parliamentary democracy. The League also sought to combat what it regarded as the pernicious influence of a myriad of un-German elements, particularly Slavs, often Catholics, and ultimately Jews." So these are not Nazis, because those don't exist yet, but you're seeing the Nazi in this group, right? Like it's not so much of a leap from this to the Nazis, right?

For sure, strong notes of Nazis. Strong notes of Nazis, right? Yeah, yeah, this is like a Sega Dreamcast isn't a PlayStation 2, but like, oh, I can see what people were like working towards, right? Yeah. For sure.

This is the Sega Dreamcast of National Socialism. That's what we can say. So, and also they are playing Crazy Taxi, so a lot of direct elements to the Sega Dreamcast. I'm gonna guess nobody gets my Sega Dreamcast jokes, but whatever. I was nod guess nobody gets my Sega Dreamcast jokes, but whatever. I was nodding and I wanted to understand. I really, it's like my partner will talk

about video games sometimes. That is a video game, right? It was a video game system. Oh. It just didn't, it didn't make it. It didn't make it. Okay. It came out around the N64 and the PlayStation and it did not last.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Anywho. We all are, we all are, we all are. It's a tragedy that rins at me to this day, like the death of my grandfather. Oh, I'm so sorry. So Alfred is a founding member of this group, but he's not like the singular driving force behind it.

When I say founding, there's like a bunch of guys who get together to do this thing. And it kinda, it's gonna pretty quickly take a back seat for him because his career gets started and he's just got a lot of other shit on his mind. Wait, I have a question. Sure. What does this guy look like?

Well, you can pull him up in a, yeah, I mean, I'll have Sophie pull up a picture of him. Obviously, most of them are gonna be when he's older because people didn't have as many photos of them when they were super young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1865. That was like-

He's born in 60. This is, we're now in like the 1880s, something like that. You're talking about Alfred? Yeah. Yeah. Oh boy, Alfie. You're gonna, it's-

It's like, this is like the 1880s right now. Yeah, but- I mean, in fairness, all these things look the same. So I guess nevermind. No, no, no, no's a, I. This is like the 1880s right now. Yeah, but. I mean, in fairness, all these seem like the same. 1890s. So I guess nevermind. No, no, no, no, no, no, the picture's worth looking at in my opinion. Oh yeah.

The picture's worth looking at. I just, like, forgive me, I just, I need a visual here. The picture's worth a thousand words and most of them are going to be, wow, that is a German ass man. The hair is fun. Oh. And be, wow, that is a German ass man. The hair is fun, and the mustache is fun. Okay, I'll describe it. There we go, yeah, there's Alfie H.

Oh my God, okay, so he looks like dudes on my side of town in Los Angeles, Loki. He's got that Bismarck style mustache. on my side of town in Los Angeles, Loki. He's got that like Bismarck style mustache. It's the way that I know exactly what neighborhood you live in. Yeah. Oh yeah, let's not talk to me, but this is what I'll say. This is what I'll say. His mustache is shaped like Squidward from SpongeBob's legs.

Yes. Yes, that's exactly it, yes. And it's white and his glasses are just- Perfectly round. They're Harry Potter glasses, honestly. He's got Squidward's legs as a mustache, like perfectly round Harry Potter glasses. And his haircut, if you've seen the movie Falling Down,

he's got like an old man high and tight. Like it's a remarkable combination of things. And like, by this point, this is a picture of him when he's older, you had money for a barber, you were one of the richest men on the planet. What is good? Although-

No, this was super on purpose. That does really, that does get us back to the Elon Musk comparisons, because it's like, wow, neither of you motherfuckers know how to get a haircut. Jesus Christ. I say that looking the way I do today, but Jesus Christ.

You look great, Robert. Although similar to Elon and Alfie, the hairline is impressive. I mean, obviously, Elon would certainly help. He did not have the ability to have a Turkish man's hair transplanted onto his scalp. Yes, that is not a Turkish man's hair. That's all Hugenberg.

Totally, which is honestly amazing, especially considering that he was such a bad person. You would think that like, that would have affected his hairline. Some terrible people are graced with an incredible head of hair, like Fabio. There is no right or reason. I don't know that Fabio was a bad person. I'm just insulting him for no reason.

Yeah, who knows? So, who knows? Given his humble beginnings, Hugenberg started his career as an entry level civil servant. So he's not, he has no nepotism to benefit from, right? He's not getting like a head start. He's going to get ahead because he's good. He becomes a member, he gets hired for the Prussian Settlement Commission in Poznan, which again is Prussia had conquered this chunk of Poland and they have a commission to help settle

it. And he is helping to manage that from 1894 to 1899. This gives him a degree of influence in the German state's attempts to reform some land use policies that were essentially holdovers from the medieval era, right? They've got these kind of medieval policies on like the aristocracy owning land that slow down colonizing it because a lot of land is just meant to be like where this duke or whatever hunts. And it's great if you're a Duke, and it's actually probably pretty good from a wildlife conservation aspect, but it's really bad from a farming. And Germany's whole thing is we don't have enough food. We can't make enough food to not die on our own. And this is constantly on our minds. So again, Pozen is an eternal colony within Germany.

Most of the population is Polish, but there's this small number of German farmers whose expansion was desired by the government. However, said expansion is stymied by the fact that many Polish people already had claim to the land. Hugenberg suggested ways to uproot them, but ultimately quit his job when the government refused to revise its inadequate policy towards the Poles. And again, that inadequate policy is you're letting them live in their own homes, right? Like that's the issue that he has with Poland.

You know what I just thought? Or with Poznan. Because the, obviously, like the use of euphemism within the Nazi regime and their campaigning is well studied and documented, but I will never get over it. And if this guy Alfie had his roots in creative writing, I bet he was a master of euphemism. Oh, yeah.

Inadequate policy. Yes. Yikes. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is Hugenberg's first foray into entrepreneurship as soon as he quits, you know, this government job because it's not working fast enough. And he immediately reveals himself

to have a head for this kind of work. He creates a series of land co-ops that allow, so he goes into business independently and he starts going to these different groups of farmers who are trying to colonize this territory that is like the center of modern Poland. And he starts putting them in together and making co-ops. And the purpose of this is because each of these independently,

these small German farmers have no economic power and so kind of keep getting fucked over. And he forms them into co-ops so that they can basically collectively set prices and bargain for better prices, right? Like the very modern thing, you know, that he's doing here. And it works. Like this makes all of these farms much more successful and it helps stimulate the growth of like more independent, like more German settlers, like farming in this area. The project is successful enough that in 1904, he gets hired back to the civil service for a, in

a significantly better position, right? Special advisor for economic development to the civil service in a significantly better position, special advisor for economic development to the east. He's just kind of like a guy stuck in the cogs in the machine. He bounces. He has this incredibly successful co-op thing for all these farmers, and it does well enough that now he's the special advisor for all economic development in the east. One of the things that's going on in the east, as I had insinuated earlier, is in Prussia you've got all these Junkers, right?

Are these, they're like the nobility, right? And these guys are also a lot of like the fighting nobility, because like Prussians are warriors. That's what you do if you're a Prussian Junker. But they also have these vast family estates, often with thousands of acres of land, and they're just kind of fucking around on them, right? The aristocracy does that everywhere they can. And so, Hugenberg doesn't want things to work that way.

He wants this land to be freed up if it's not being farmed for more farmers to buy it. Now, like all conservative Germans, and Alfred is very conservative, his interest is in autarky, right? He wants the state to be able to produce all of its own necessities, you know? We just had the tariffs come down yesterday, it's kind of the same idea, right?

Conservatives never quite get over this. What if we didn't need anyone else? And it's like, I don't know, man, do you like kumquats? Cause that's kind of critical that you trade. Do you like computers? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, fuck Jesus. It's more, it's a little more understandable

in this period as a German because they're always aware of like, okay, well we've got Russia on one side and they don't always like us and we got France on the other and they don't always like us, and we got France on the other and they don't always like us, and then the English control the seas, so we're really easy to starve, you know? It would be great if we could grow enough food to not starve. Mm-hmm. So, Hugenberg set to work applying his three principles

to the problem of all these giant useless estates going unmanaged. Being a practical guy, he came up with what seemed like a simple solution, and he published a book about his work with the Farming Co-ops Imposing and how similar tactics could be used to encourage the rapid accumulation and deployment of capital to properly settle the East. Alfred insisted that the state's role in all of this was not to stick with the traditional younger view of property and instead to use its power to encourage competition.

He wanted them to pass laws to confiscate large, unproductive estates and resettle them with small farmers who would form co-ops. I won't give Hugenberg credit for a lot, but this probably would have worked. And I base this on the fact that basically 100% of the time, shit like this got tried and peasants were given access to large areas of raw land to split up and manage in common, productivity increased. And it especially increased over the old way of quote, letting some rich guy use it as a private park, right? It's just more effective in a farm in terms of yield.

However, the rich guys that Hugenberg wants to dispossess are the rich guys, right? These are the people running things because the Prussians are kind of the most powerful group within Imperial Germany and they don't like that Hugenberg wants to take their shit. I'm going to quote from Leopold's book here. Confronted with strong opposition from Junkers and others opposed to this proposal, state officials hesitated in their advocacy of this legislation. Hugenburg scorned their pedantic political conscience and again left the civil service." So he's like, fuck you guys, I'm going home. I'm going to go do my own thing now. I tried working through the government. It's useless. Word.

Yes. You know what's not useless? You know what should be the government? The products and services that support this podcast. They should run the country. Why not? Could they do, could they be worse? Could it be worse? Maybe. There's a type of soil in Mississippi called Yazoo clay.

It's thick, burnt orange, and it's got a reputation. It's terrible, terrible dirt. Yazoo Clay eats everything, so things that get buried there tend to stay buried. Until they're not. In 2012, construction crews at Mississippi's biggest hospital made a shocking discovery. Seven thousand bodies out there or more. All former patients of the old state asylum. And nobody knew they were there.

It was my family's mystery. But in this corner of the South, it's not just the soil that keeps secrets. Nobody talks about it. Nobody has any information. When you peel back the layers of Mississippi's Yazoo clay, nothing's ever as simple as you think.

The story is much more complicated and nuanced than that. I'm Larysen Campbell. Listen to Under Yazoo Clay on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Breaking news tonight. The return of Tot Mom. It feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth. TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg, please

go away. Guys, please don't miss this. Please join us. Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. I just knew him as a kid. Long silent voices from his past came forward. And he was just staring at me. And they had secrets of their own to share. Gilbert King. I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott.

I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it. Every time I hear about my dad, it's, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known. If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed. I never expected to find myself in this place.

Now, I need to tell you how I got here. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Bone Valley, season two. Jeremy. Jeremy, I want to tell you something. Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley, season two, starting April 9th on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content starting April 9th

Subscribe to lava for good plus on Apple podcasts And we're back I don't know I think Shamba casino would be a good overlord Seems ethical casinos are always nice We could all smoke indoors, you know? That's how casinos work. That is a vibe. That is a vibe. So he bounces, gets out of government again, and his dream is to make East Prussia not

a backwater, right? That's kind of what he wants in this period of time, but he's been stymied. And Alfred, he's not an introspective soul, nor is he to kind of waste his energy being disappointed. So he right away gets a job on the board of directors for a bank in Frankfurt that serves several mining concerns. And not just mining, but companies like generally in the metal business.

So suppliers and producers of raw materials. And his role here is reorganizing and rearranging things to enhance the profitability of everyone in this industry. Basically all of the owners of these different mines and sort of like mineral concerns and whatnot are all putting a chunk of their money in like a common pile to be used. And Hugenberg is managing it. He's an early hedge fund manager, right? Wait, I am so- It's not that back then,

but that's what he's doing. I am so dumbfounded by this guy's disposition. Like he wanted to be a creative writer. I'm still stuck on that. And then he suppressed it to become someone- A hedge fund guy. Yeah, in hedge funds. on that and then he suppressed it to become someone who's interested. A hedge fund guy. Yeah, in hedge funds.

I'm just like, how does that make sense? Is he truly a Renaissance man and so adaptable or was he never truly an artist to begin with and he just kind of told himself he was suppressing his artistic tendencies, but really he was meant for this. He writes several books. I don't know if I'd say he was meant to be a creative writer, but I think the thing is more he is utterly obsessed in the way that poor kids sometimes wind up being

with I am not going, I am going to be somebody, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is how you do that. Ultimate opportunist, however, whatever path will lead me there. Like come hell or high water, I will fucking be somebody. Yeah, okay, okay. That's this dude. Yeah, got it.

So his role in this kind of early hedge fund-ish position is to like, yeah, enhance profitability. And he does, he does well enough that he gets hired on next to run a bank, like a whole banking firm. So like a, basically a network of banks that's run by a prosperous Jewish family, the Mertens. Now Hugenberg is a raging anti-Semite as is the German general league,

which he's still a member of, which by this point has changed its name to the much catchier Pan-German League. And they'd only doubled down on the anti-Semitism since then, but this doesn't seem to stop him from being willing to work for this rich family, the Mertens. Now the League at this point, it's not a mass organization, nor does it want to be one. It's got maybe a few thousand members at this point. It's going to top out at 38,000 people, which is very small for one of these.

Again, by the Nazi era, there's going to eventually be a couple million brown shirts, right? So this is not a huge organization, but members of them are professional people, often with a lot of money and influence. So the Pan-German League is hugely influential culturally. It punches above its weight class, right? Because the members of it are guys like Hugenberg. They're social climbers or they're already rich and influential. Now I quoted from that historian, Barryish a little earlier and those quotes were from a book he wrote on the Pan-German League titled The Pan-German League and Radical Nationalist

Politics in Interwar Germany, which is a very accurate title, but not very clickable. You know, seven things you didn't know about German nationalists. There's a lot of better ways to title it, Barry. I'm just saying. Oh, sorry. The Buzz just saying, oh, sorry. The Buzzfeed era hadn't hit yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's, it's a very good book.

And here's how Barry describes the league's membership. The Pan-German League drew the vast majority of its members from the social strata identified by the German terms Bildung und Besitz, or the propertied and educated middle class. And this is where we get to a very important and very German prerequisite for the rise of the Nazis. One that doesn't get discussed a lot.

We love to talk about, and I do it on this show, the things that graph exactly to shit that's been happening in the US when we talk about the fall of Weimar and the rise of German fascism because there are a lot of similarities. But there's a lot of differences too, which is I think are important to emphasize now because I think some people get like, oh my God, we've done all these other things that are similar to Weimar.

We're destined to do this. We're not. It can go different for us. And part of why is because like, it is a very different culture. We're not Germany at any point in time. Wait, I actually have two questions about that. Well, no, I have a comment and a question.

So bringing it to cults, people do the same thing making comparisons between Donald Trump and Jim Jones and we live and including myself like you. I love to point out rhetorical similarities, the way that they weaponize. They exist for sure, yeah. Yes, but there are extremely noteworthy differences that are equally important to emphasize,

and Jonestown was an unprecedented and since unreplicated thing, and Jim Jones read Nietzsche, and Donald Trump doesn't read anything. The one thing, the Jonestown story has a courageous US congressman risking his life for his constituents. That'll never happen again.

So true, no, honestly, that's a great point. But there was some drama with a plane and that's really happening. There we go, there was a lot of plane drama, yeah. Yeah. But my question related to this somewhat, and this is a really basic question, so maybe this will sound like kindergarten level, but like, I don't really understand and have never really understood how German nationalism among these guys like Hitler and Alfie, how was it so raging?

Like I don't I don't find that I mean I know Trump but Trump doesn't have American nationalism I find. For one thing I mean Trump definitely uses American nationalism. He uses it yes but I don't think he feels it in his soul. Yeah this is one of those things to an extent you simply can't understand, because nationalism is a new idea then, right? The idea of a nation state and the way we conceive of it is fairly new and also the idea of just being a, the idea that I'm a Serb and so I should have a Serbia,

right? People hadn't always thought that way, right these are these are kind of new and especially The idea again they had to really it took a lot to convince all these different Germanic states that you're all Germans There's a story I'm gonna tell in a little bit that I think will make some of this make a little bit more sense Yeah, no that's already helpful cuz a novelty, when something is brand new, you like don't really know what it means yet. Cause you don't have the context and the retrospect, but it, yeah, it's sexy.

It's exciting. It's like AI stuff now, like in 70 years, we'll look back and be like, why was everyone- Nationalism is the AI of the turn of the century. Yes. Totally. I mean, there's an extent to which like, at least in terms of how excited people are by the idea

that that's not totally wrong. Yeah, yeah. Now, when we talk about like, why did Germany go in the direction it did? This is really where the seeds of a lot of the things that, you know, culminate in the thirties are being planted. And a lot of leftists like to argue that fascism evolves out of capitalism.

You know, the bourgeoisie and especially conservatives in the bourgeoisie, inevitably turn fascist once their material interests are threatened. Now, we'll leave out now talk about how accurate that is a depiction of what's happening in the United States right now, but seeing things that simplistically misses some very important aspects of how Nazism got going in Germany. Because Nazism is a radical political movement. Nazis don't like conservatives. In fact, they kill a lot of them, right?

That's not the, they don't target them the way they do the left in any way, but they are not a conservative movement and they don't see themselves as conservatives. And they're not really very keen on capitalists either, although a lot of capitalists eventually do support them out of self-interest. I'm saying this because Hugenberg is never a Nazi in the ideological sense of the word. He is a monarchist and he is a social and economic conservative.

And the Pan-Germanic League, while there's things in it you can see as like, oh, I see how Nazism arrived from this. It's more that the soil is the same, right? And so the plants have some similar characteristics that are coming up. The Pan-German League is not going after, the Nazis are initially going after the poor and downtrodden, right?

Those are Hitler's earliest recruits and veterans, disaffected veterans. That's not who the Pan-Germanic League is going after. It is laser targeted at the group of people that Leopold identifies as Bildung and Besitz. And there's another term for that group. And that term is Bildung's Burgertum, right? And that is crudely, we might say the upper middle class. It means literally the cultivated bourgeoisie.

In his book, The Fateful Alliance, historian Hermann Beck writes, Germany owed its reputation in scholarship, administration, and technical expertise to this numerically small but socially influential university-trained elite. The Bildungsbürgertum was a uniquely German phenomenon that originated as a distinct social class in the second half of the 18th and early 19th centuries. And these are the people who run things. They're not the people who are in charge of things, right? That's generally the nobility.

They are the people who are being delegated the task of actually making shit happen, right? Because they have the educations. And this is a class that in the earliest period, including where we're up to, the 1890s, is a progressive and liberal class. That's gonna change. They're going to become extremely conservative

in the 1900s, but they're not initially. And in fact, the first man to posit what we would consider a modern view of what homosexuality is, and the first gay man to come out publicly, is a member of the Bildungsbergertum in 1867. The first modern, like, guy, both two, and when I say a modern understanding of homosexuality, this guy, Carl Ulrichs, comes to a conclusion that like, oh, homosexuality logically is something I'm born as, right?

This isn't a choice. It was viewed as both a choice and as like a deviant thing, right? Carl convinces himself like, no, no, no, this is like a natural thing. And as a result, we are a discriminated underclass and the laws need to change. And he comes out in public in 1867 at a town meeting. And so he's like, he's simultaneously like introducing everyone at the meeting to the concept of homosexuality and also saying, and I am one, which is wildly brave.

Like he is, this dude rocks. Well, he's a member of the Bildungsbürger Tum as is Albert Hugenberg. And in terms of like seeing how this gets, how things shift, nationalism in the late 1800s is a progressive liberal ideology, right? In part because of what it means about how pre-existing elites needed to not have the kind of power that they used to have.

And Carl Ulrichs is a German nationalist, previous to the existence of Germany. Normally people see it and they're like, okay, well, that's right wing. No, no, no. He is a German nationalist because the German state he is in, homosexual sex, sodomy, is legal. But in Prussia, it's illegal. Prussia is pushing to dominate all these other states. And so Ulrichs becomes a German nationalist because he's like, then we other Germans

will be strong enough to force the Prussians to stop being bigoted against gay people. So when we talk about German nationalism, this is not always like a right wing regressive ideology. There's a, and in Hugenberg's earliest days, there's a lot of very progressive aspects to it. It is utterly fascinating that, like living through present political times, we think like, oh, you know, this label that describes this particular group of thinkers,

that that correlation will be perennial. Like that will always mean that. But, you know, it's like, no. But no. It can flip so fast. Shit changes. Yeah. The Republican Party used to be a very different thing, right? Exactly. 1865 or so. So from the beginning, this uniquely German class, the Bildungsbürgertum, was characterized by a close relationship to the state, since its strongest component came from the upper echelons of state bureaucracies in various German states. In addition to the people who are running the government, there's also a lot of professors,

university professors are generally of this class, as well as a lot of prominent lawyers. The origins of this entire social class actually trace back to a guy named Wilhelm von Humboldt. Humboldt was an educational reformer in the early 1800s who remakes the whole Prussian education system. He is a big believer in the power of the individual to reach their full potential or bildung through education. their full potential or building for through education, right? Among other innovations, he codifies the idea of a national school system for kind of the first time in the West that starts with primary school and then secondary school and then university education. Everyone

adopts this. The foundations of our education system such as it is are traced directly back to Humboldt and his reform of the Prussian system, right? He is basically the father of the concept of universal mandatory education, which is paid for by the state. And it's one of those, there's a lot of modern day criticisms of the Prussian system. People will argue it only exists to provide soldiers, right? And so the schools are trying to make you into a good soldier for capitalism. And like, isn't not 100% wrong.

These were Prussians, so that was a big part of why they wanted to educate people so they'd be useful for the state. But Humboldt's also a very progressive guy for his time, and it would not be fair to categorize him as like some sort of like weirdo fascist, you know? Because that's just not what's going on at this point in time. He was not trying to make students into little robots. His goal was to, was his citizenry who was capable of reasoning, thinking outside of the box, and actively learning.

So as to better serve the state, but he wasn't trying to like lock people into a little box. And his reforms work well enough that by the time Alfred Hugenberg is getting his start, Germany has the best universities on the planet. And it is universally agreed, the best universities on the planet. It is universally agreed the best doctors and scientists are German. It's because they start having a modern university system between everyone else. In the early 1900s, Germany is the font of learning in the West and very much is seen as that way, especially in the medical realm. And this is, that's a huge part,

this class that Hugenberg is a part of, the Bildungsbürgertum, they, these are, they're characterized by their belief that education makes people better and because we're educated, we're better, right? Better like, like morally better? Yes, yes, yes. Or better like, okay. Very much that way too, yes.

So you can see where the problems start to arise, right? Yeah. There's this good thing of like, they're like, we need to have an expansive and well-funded education system, great. And also we're better than the rest of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like more valid, valuable humans.

That's probably gonna go in a bad direction. So as you're starting to see, there's some danger in having a class like this, right? And what starts with a well-deserved sense of accomplishment in their own system morphs into this overall sense of superiority, right? If the world is copying the German education system, which it is, doesn't it make sense that Germans should rule more of the world, right? That's really a lot of how the thinking, as this progressive liberal class becomes

more conservative, that's part of what they're thinking. Now, yeah. So, you know, that's going to be a problem. It's this kind of thing that by the end of the 1870s, they've stopped really being as liberal. And by the 1890s, they're advocates of imperialism and they are aggressive nationalists. It's no longer Ulrich's very reasonably progressive nationalism. It is a, what if we just took everything kind of nationalism, right? Oh my God. So by early 1909, Hugenberg has made a name for himself as a great businessman and financier and an innovative thinker in the field of imperialism.

He gets scouted by the son of one of our old bastards, a guy named Gustav Krupp. And Gustav is the inheritor of the Krupp weapons dynasty. These are the guys who had made Germany possible because Germany comes into being in 1870 when they beat the French in a war. And they beat the French because Napoleon III is still using brass cannons that are basically identical to the ones the first Napoleon III is still using brass cannons that are basically identical to the ones the first Napoleon had used. And Friedrich Krupp, his people figured out how to make modern steel artillery that is just so much better at killing men.

Oh my God. Wait, was that guy? Was he an art collector? Krupp? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were a very rich family. So yeah, they bought a lot of art. I think I went to an art exhibit in Zurich that was exhibiting his art collection and like trying to reckon with how those pieces were acquired. It was really interesting. The Crups, I mean, they're like Bezos level of wealthy for the time, right? Because they are selling the whole world guns, right? They make

the best ones. Now Krupp is a member of the aristocracy, right? Um, but he, he's looking for, he has an understanding of like his limitations financially. And so he's, he's scouting for a man of quote, really superior intelligence to become the new chairman of the board of directors for Krupp. And Hugenberg, he immediately recognizes as a genius and he gives him the job, right? So Hugenberg is kind of the CEO of Krupp Arms, of the biggest gun company in the world, right? That's ever existed up to this point. And for more, he is going to be the guy running a lot of it. Technically, he's primarily doing in the world, right? That's ever existed up to this point. Oh my God. He is going to be the guy running a lot of, technically he's primarily doing the financial decisions

for Krupp, so he's not designing guns, but he is like the head man at Krupp for the decade up to leading up to World War I, right? Oh my God. And what Krupp is doing in this period is pushing the Kaiser to build the machine of death that is the German mobilization schedule, right? And part of what they're doing is Krupp is going around

and they're going to one country and being like, hey, we'll sell you these guns. You really got to modernize. Your guns are a generation or two behind your neighbor. And like, they're getting armed, so why don't you get armed? And then once they arm that country, they'll go to another and be like,

hey, your neighbor just bought a bunch of new, you really gotta get some new guns, right? And this keeps ratcheting everybody's anxiety up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just like, I just sold your neighbor a stack of Bibles. Yeah, but this worked so well.

And Hugenburg is on the finance side of things that like dividends expand from 188 to 14 percent from 1909 to 1913 like that's and that's a big deal Krupp is making so much fucking money and because Alfred is running shit. He becomes Spectacularly wealthy and the balance. Oh my god, think guy think hundreds of millions of dollars by the standards of his time, right? That's that's probably that's about where he is in millions of dollars by the standards of his time, right? That's probably, that's about where he is in terms of like our modern concept of things.

He's not like a billionaire yet, but hundreds of millions. Now, despite the fact that he is making Gustav Krupp so much fucking money, the Krupp's are again aristocracy and Hugenberg, despite his wealth, is just a burger, right? He's not like a, he's a common man. You know, he comes from like the nicer part of the common class, but Gustav doesn't really- He's new money.

He's not gonna hang with him, right? As biographer Leopold writes, though everyone was impressed with his extraordinary intelligence and obvious ability, there is no indication that Hugenberg, during his 10 year stay at Krupp's, ever developed anything more than a formal relationship with his employer. The patrician aloofness of the securely established Krupps contrasted sharply with the dogged determination to succeed, which characterized Hugenberg.

Indeed, Hugenberg seemed typically— Oh, he was a bad hang. He's a bad hang. Indeed, Hugenberg seemed typical of that class of general directors, which George Bernard described as being driven by an inferiority complex because they know they are dependent and in the final analysis are as disposable as any other employee. Lack of security made such a director continually harder and more uncompromising than the owner himself. Possibly as a psychological compensation, Hugenberg in these years emphasized the inflexibility,

stubbornness and self-righteousness, which would characterize his political career. So he knows you don't need me, you can throw me away if I stop making you money. And that drives him to be the son of a bitch, of the sons of bitches in business in this period. And he- Oh my God.

He just, you know, this is, maybe this is gonna sound like a fucked up thing to say, but like, maybe he needed more love, you know? Like, did his parents- Yeah. You know, who- His dad, well his dad dies right away. No, I mean- Okay. Maybe later, not a big personal life guy, you know?

Yeah, no, that is business. He's really a scroo guy, you know, yeah You know Yeah, just this fucking lonely Screw just plays by Michael K Yes Yikes, he's yeah, you know, he needed one of those really really intensive Like parent-child therapy sessions were like, yeah You know a teenage boy is like forced to sit on his mom's lap and make eye contact with her for two hours.

Well, the downside is they do have psychotherapy by then, but if he had gone to it at this point, he would have just been given a shitload of cocaine by Freud. Which is, this guy's a finance bro, that is not gonna make shit better. No, no, no, no. He needs, he should have fast forward to the ketamine, ketamine times.

Right, right, that would have fixed him. Our ketamine billionaires are in such good health. Oh yeah, wait, whoa. Oh, do you think, do you think that Alfie was on coke? I mean, it was, he probably took it at some point just because it was in a lot of medications, like a lot of patent medications. There's a bunch of different shit you would be given

for like a flu that might've had some coke or some heroin in it, right? Like, so it's- So maybe that is a parallel again between him and Elon. They could be both medicated wrong. They could be both medicated. No way to know. No way to know.

So Alfred is very insecure because of his position. And he takes this insecurity out on his workers, by which I mean, crup workers. He despised socialism and he found himself violently opposed to anything that smelled slightly of democracy, by which I mean unions. Alfred talked a lot about wanting to make unions obsolete. He's one of these guys who's like, well, I'm just going to treat our employees so well that they'll become members of the petite bourgeoisie. I'm going to give them stock in the company.

Then why would they want to be unions? They'll be shareholders, right? And they'll be able to buy their own homes. And what he's suggesting here, this is what happens in the US post-war to create the most prosperous society in history. So like within the capitalist milieu, this is an idea that does work. It's going to work in the US not long after this. But Hugenberg is just bullshitting.

He has no interest in doing any of this. As Leopold notes, quote, "'Working and living conditions did not change much "'during Hugenberg's tenure.' "'He ultimately did find himself forced to work "'with what he called yellow unions, "'which are trade unions that aren't allowed to strike. So he'll work with these guys because they don't actually have any teeth.

But as a rule, he found even that kind of union disgusting. And he starts pushing internal propaganda within Krupp that depicted management and employees and Leopold's words, quote, not antithetical classes, but common producers of shared wealth. You know, you and your you and Krupp, the plutocrat who owns all of this money by pushing everyone towards World War One, you're really the same. You know, that's like that's the propaganda. He's he's not good at propaganda at this stage.

Now, got it. Yeah. And again, the wealth's not actually being shared. And this is something Alfred and his fellow industrialists would acknowledge cheerfully. They don't think you should share wealth. They are social Darwinists. They believe the poor and working class can only be trusted with a certain amount of money. And if they have any more than that, they'll fritter it away on harmful nonsense because they're just not smart enough to reinvest it into the German arms industry, right?

Which is obviously what a smart man does with his money. Oh my God. Sure, sure, sure. By 1912, Hugenberg was one of the most prominent men in the entire Reich. He was awarded the Red Order of the Eagle by the Kaiser. Now, this is one of dozens of made-up awards that the Kaiser would give different Germans over the years in order to like, you know, you need to have a bunch of fake awards to hand each other so everybody can wear a uniform

that looks fancy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's worth noting- It's the NXIVM sash of- It's the NXIVM sash, yes. Of Germany at this time, yes. And Alfred's Red Order medal is third class with a bow. I don't know what that means.

Leopold writes- That is so, That sounds dumb. Yeah. At the ceremonies, the chairman of the board delivered a masterful speech criticizing the attempt to use universal male suffrage as a means of imposing class rule on the Reich. He insisted that neither voting nor legislation would advance the workers, but only a very much richer, very much greater, and very much more powerful Germany would be continued to ensure continued benefits for the industrial proletariat. And so in the speech he's saying, the only thing that can make the poor, the working

class more comfortable is if we steal everything from the rest of the world. That's your only hope, guys. Damn. Speaking of stealing everything from the rest of the world, Sophie, can we, should we show them our sponsors? I don't think we're stealing things from the rest of the world. You never know. I steal shit sometimes, Sophie.

Like cable. Allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. There's a type of soil in Mississippi called Yazoo clay. It's thick, burnt orange, and it's got a reputation. It's terrible, terrible dirt. Yazoo clay eats everything, so things that get buried there tend to stay buried until they're not. In 2012, construction crews at Mississippi's biggest hospital made a shocking discovery.

Seven thousand bodies out there or more. All former patients of the old state asylum. And nobody knew they were there. It was my family's mystery. But in this corner of the South, it's not just the soil that keeps secrets. Nobody talks about it. Nobody has any information. When you peel back the layers of Mississippi's Yazoo clay,

nothing's ever as simple as you think. The story is much more complicated and nuanced than that. I'm Larysen Campbell. Listen to Under Yazoo Clay on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Breaking news tonight. The return of Tot Mom. It feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth. TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg, please go away. Guys, please don't miss this. Please join us.

Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1. I just knew him as a kid. Long silent voices from his past came forward. And he was just staring at me. And they had secrets of their own to share.

Um, Gilbert King? I'm the son of Jeremy Lynn Scott. I was no longer just telling the story. I was part of it. Every time I hear about my dad, it's, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between a killer and the son he'd never known. If the cops and everything would have done their job properly, my dad would have been in jail. I would have never existed.

I never expected to find myself in this place. Now, I need to tell you how I got here. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer. Bone Valley Season 2. Jeremy. Jeremy, I want to tell you something. Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley Season 2 starting April 9th on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire new season ad free with exclusive content starting April 9th, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. We're back.

We sure as hell are. Yes. So now, as I said, during this whole period, one thing that's going on is this cycle where crumples send their arms merchants abroad and say, hey, your neighbor just bought all these great cannons or this machine gun and they're thinking of using it, so why don't you get some more guns? And one of the things this cycle of upgrades does, it's great for Krupp's bottom line and other weapons manufacturers.

They're all taking part in this. This is not just Krupp Germany. He's not just responsible for the preconditions of World War I, obviously. But one thing that this cycle that these arms manufacturers are all responsible for means is that every European leader is constantly thinking, okay, right now we've got better artillery than the French, but their machine guns are a little better. And in two years, they're going to have new artillery. So maybe we need to go to war now if we're going to have a chance of beating them, right? Like everyone's always thinking this way, right? How is this like manufactured escalation legal?

Like this sounds- Because these people own the government or run the government to a big extent. Yeah, like- Oh, it's so fucked up. Yeah, it's great. So Hugenberg profits from this process and he may have been more directly involved

than even just like running the finances and benefiting it because he winds up involved in a huge scandal right in late 1912 to early 1913. He's implicated significantly in what's called the Kornwalzer affair. Now I'm going to quote from an article by Lothar Burchard from the 1988 German yearbook on business history to describe the Korneswaller affair. A Krupp employee was found guilty of bribing army and navy officers. This proved not only to the German, but also to the foreign skeptics that they were right to believe that the company would stop at nothing in pursuit of its interests.

In 1905, George Bernard Shaw had already, in his play Major Barbara, not been sparing with his insinuations. In 1913, even the serious American journal The Iron Age wrote, following the facts revealed during the Cornwallser affair, that Krupp was obviously recently prepared to go to any lengths to agitate a war. Even before the First World War had really started, H.G. Wells had already decided who was the real culprit. And the center of this disaster, which had finally become a world catastrophe, is Kruppism, the dirty, violent trade with the tools of death. It was shortly afterwards that the often repeated but never conclusively proved allegation

arose that the then company boss, Gustav Krupp, v. Bolland und Halbach, had been informed by the Kaiser months in advance of the imminent war. And Alfred is directly implicated in this bribery of army and naval officers as like because he's the manager of this guy. And it's too much to say that we don't know, again, we don't really know if the Kaiser was literally warned months in advance of the imminent war because I don't actually think it was planned that way. But that's the rumor going around, right? And it's definitely true that Hugenberg is aware of how tensions are ratcheting up and is using that as a way, he is taking advantage of this to make money in a way that makes

World War I more likely, right? He has some of the war guilt, right, because of the position that he has. Again, there's plenty of war guilt to go around. The French aren't blameless. The British aren't even blameless. And fucking the Russians, sure as shit, aren't blameless. But he's one of the, he's one of a small number of men who is directly implicated in creating the conditions of World War I, right?

The bastard. Now, yeah. Given his age and wealth, there's no chance Hugenberg or too many of the people he cared about, because he doesn't care about a lot of people, were going to have to fight and die in this war. In fact, he was very pro the idea of having a World War I. He's gotten back into the Pan-Germanic League at this point, and the League is doing everything they can do to encourage Germany to go to war with its neighbors. If you're old enough to remember the biggest cheerleaders

for the war in Iraq, that's what these guys are doing, right? They're coming up with justifications for like, why we have to go liberate Eastern France, right? They'll welcome us as liberators. Belgium is national. Wow, sweet. Yeah. Did you just imply that because Alfie like had no friends

and no loved ones and no family members and thus no one to lose in a war, he's just like, yeah, fucking go off. He's got nothing to gain from a war. Yeah. So- Nothing to lose. Yeah, well, nothing to lose.

You're right, sorry, I fucked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it sounds like the, right. He has- Yeah. Ultimately, he's doing life wrong, but- He's doing life very wrong. That's obvious. Yeah.

And to make things worse, he's cajoling European powers to arm each other, both in his job as an arms dealer and through this social club that he's helping to run. And then in 1912, something terrible happens. It's the same year of the Kornwalzer affair. The social Democrats win big in that year's German elections. And Germany is a parliament, a parliamentary monarchy, right? They have a parliament. The, the Kaiser is often described as an absolute ruler and he has, he can overrule most things, right? But there is a parliament and they, they don't have zero power and the social Democrats win big that year, which scares the shit out of Alfred and people like him.

So he starts talking to other rich, reactionary nationalists and he tries to sell them on an idea he's had, which is he wants to create a cartel of the producing classes. In other words, he wants to get all of the rich business owners together and form a union of rich guys to collectively bargain in their own interests, right? He sees what union is-

A gold union, not a yellow, a gold. Yeah, a gold union. Yes, exactly. And this is a thing, he's not alone in thinking this. A lot of magnates in the Ruhr, and the Ruhr is Germany's industrial heartland. It's where the guns get made, right? And a lot of the guys who run and own the mines and the companieshr is Germany's industrial heartland. It's where the guns get made, right? And a lot of the guys who run and own the mines and the companies making raw materials

and the companies turning those raw materials into weapons and other stuff, they're all thinking along the same lines. And so in 1913, he is hired to chair the board of directors for an organization that pools money from mine and factory owners in the area for profit. And part of the goal here, he's not just like investing it, he is spending it to benefit them.

Part of the idea is you will spend a chunk of our money, we all give like 1% or whatever, right? And that money accumulates and you spend it to influence the culture, right? To put out news and stuff and propaganda that's positive for us. Hugenberg is going to be running that project, right? Because these guys, these industrial magnates,

have, the billionaires of their day, have come to the conclusion that if we can just change the news stories poor people read, poor people will stop trying to get our money, you know? Yeah, wow, okay. So when you said that he wasn't good at propaganda yet. Yet. And well, also this is a very Musk thing, right? Like we're coming to the he buys Twitter part, right?

So again, Hugenberg is not a skilled propagandist in terms of he doesn't make propaganda nor does he like write it. He's not drawing it or anything like that. But he sees the need for propaganda and he's good at hiring people who are good at stuff. So in 1914, he uses a bunch of this pooled corporate money to form a holding company called Ausland GmbH.

A month later, that company forms a subsidiary named Ausland Ansigen. Leopold explains what happened next, which will sound very familiar to those of you who know anything about the Daily Wire. Ausland Ansigen was established to study foreign publications and to coordinate the advertising next, which will sound very familiar to those of you who know anything about the daily wire. Auslund Einzigen was established to study foreign publications and to coordinate the advertising of heavy industrial firms interested in exports. So he's sending out people to study foreign media propaganda and bring back advice so that they can create news outlets that will represent the interests of the rich, right?

That's what he's doing. Now, this is initially just an advertising thing, right? The idea is that we will make better ad propaganda, but the study of foreign ads expands to a general study of foreign propaganda, and this kind of conclusion starts to develop that like, you know what ads, that's not the best way to propagandize what ads that's not the best way to propagandize people Journalism is the best way to propagandize people news articles are the best way to propagandize people right? Yes, and so they're working this is what they start working on when in August of 1914 The shooting starts on the Western Front and we will talk about that

of 1914, the shooting starts on the Western Front. And we will talk about that, what happens later, and how Alfred Hugenberg finally gets in bed with the Nazis in part two. How are you feeling, Amanda? I feel amazing. I feel really glad that I don't be- That's a normal way to feel when you talk about Alfred Hugenberg, yes.

Well, I'm just- America's sweetheart. Yeah, exactly. I, well, kind of, cause I feel whenever I hear stories like this, I feel like, oh wow, I'm not the worst person in history. No, no, no. You're a better person than Alfred Hugenberg.

A low bar. That's huge. Russell Brand might be a better person than Alfred Hugenberg. A low bar. That's huge. Russell Brand might be a better person than Alfred Hugenberg and he just got charged with some pretty serious crimes. Yeah, yeah. Ooh, that's a fun game. But you know what? Who's a worse person? I'll say this.

Very few historians blame Russell Brand for the outbreak of World War I. Almost never, you know? Almost, almost never. Honestly, would be super impressive if he'd managed that somehow. I would love to talk to a historian who's like open to discussing a working theory

that Russell Brand had something to do with World War I. Just like a photo of him in the background in Sarajevo as the Archduke drives past, oh my God! Yeah, Russell, he does have sort of a time traveler's styling to him. It is one of those. It looks like he could have been from any era at all. There's some guys like Matt Damon,

you put Matt Damon in like a historical movie from 120 years ago, I'm sorry, Matt Damon has, as people have said, Matt Damon has a face that knows what a smartphone is, right, like you just can't. Yeah, that's so true. But yeah, Russell Brand, if I saw him in a picture from like 1848, I'd be like, no, that's, he might belong there, yeah.

Oh my God, that's so funny. Probably committing sex crimes there, but he might belong there. For sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he belongs there as much as anywhere, which might be nowhere, but do you ever see people IRL in 2025, you're like, whoa, you do.

You have a face that looks like an old sepia toned, like faded print from the late 19th century. Cause I do sometimes. Yeah, no, I get that a lot actually. You get it yourself, you're like, every time I look in the mirror. Yeah. All right, well, Amanda, you got any pluggables

before we roll out of part one? Yes, if people like hearing about cults in a cheeky tone, or really just cult-like organizations from the modern day zeitgeist and wanna participate in determining whether or not they are real cults, they can listen to my podcast, Sounds Like a Cult, about the modern day cults

we all follow from Disney adults to Elon Musk. So yeah, and we have an episode coming out with you about Mark Zuckerberg, so that's going to be exciting. Yeah, and then, Kultish, my book Kultish is coming out in paperback in June. Excellent. Well, check out Kultish, check out everything Amanda is involved with, and check out part two. Coming in like a day.

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. In Mississippi, Yazoo Clay keeps secrets. Seven thousand bodies out there or more.

A forgotten asylum cemetery. It was my family's mystery. Shame, guilt, propriety, something keeps it all buried deep until it's not. I'm Larisen Campbell and this is Under Yazoo Clay. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Breaking news tonight. The return of Tot Mom. It feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth. TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg, please go away.

Guys, please don't miss this. Please join us. Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield in Bone Valley Season 1.

Every time I hear about my dad, it's, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil. I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day I'm literally a son of a killer. Listen to new episodes of Bone Valley season 2 starting April 9th on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.