Behind the Bastards - Part One: Elizabeth Dilling: The Original Candace Owens

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

Robert sits down with the magnanimous Katy Stoll to discuss the predecessor of Phyllis Schlafly, Candace Owens and Alex Jones: Elizabeth DillingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to Behind the Bastards. This is not the first episode of the podcast we've done this year during the official summer, but it's basically the official legal Christian summer. Right guys? Team, isn't it? It feels hot as hell outside today. It's going to, but it, but it, but it only for the next couple days and then it's going to be in the 60s. Oh, is it? Yeah. And then, and then, and then Mother Nature will water my garden and I'm thrilled. Great. I'm glad that Oregon. You won't burn down yet. Yes. Yes, please, Katie. Katie Stolls here, legend. Hey, everybody.

How hot and or on fire is it where you are? Oh, yeah. Oh, ah, both of those things. I am in the mountains, but it is an unpleasant, well, it's 85. It's not too bad. Could be worse. We had some 90-degree days last week, but I moved to the mountains thinking it would be cooler, and boy, was I wrong.

Yeah, it gets hot. It gets hot. Lots of burnable brush all around me as well, so. Yeah. Everything catches on fire out there. That's the beauty of living out in the country. Yeah. And they defunded one of my, they closed one of our fire stations.

Anyway. Oh, that's always reassuring. Oh, good. It's not like California needs a lot of those. It's wild times. I'm only bringing up the summer because I had my first, every year when it gets hot again, I remember, okay, I got to put out sunscreen before I go run this time. And then 15 or so minutes into that first run of the year with sunscreen,

I remember, oh, yeah, when you sweat with sunscreen, it burns your eyes like a son of a bitch. So if my eyes look like red and puffy, it's because I just finished a run in a shower and my entire face was on fire from sunscreen. I actually thought it was because you were crying. No. No, Sophie. I was like, oh, you've been touched. I would tell you if I was crying, but I, this is simply self-inflicted friendly fire. Self-inflicted friendly fire, another piece. Why are you wearing a sweater, man? It's cold in my basement. Yeah, it's cold in the basement. It's the way my AC works. I'm like, we're talking about summer and you're all bundled up.

I am wearing my hoodie or my sweater, yes. Meanwhile, Katie and I are Lucy Goosey. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I got my Lakers Luca Dantridge shirt on. Shout out to my haters. Okay. Anyways, Robert, did the job.

Should we do it? Yeah, shall we do the job? Katie, Stoll, how are you doing today? Podcasting-wise? Pretty good. Podcasting-wise. I'm sitting here with my old pals, whom I've missed. I have missed you, too, and I have missed talking to you about shitty people.

So I wanted to give you a special shitty person today. You know, we talk a lot about old-timey, far-right influencers on this podcast, you know, the the guys around the 20s and 30s and 40s, the OG American fascists. But we haven't talked a lot about, like, the history of women in the early history of women in the American fascist movement. And the crucial role, different, like, female influencers have played in the American and far right. And so today we're going to talk about a woman who you could call the first Candace Owens or the first Laura Lumer. You can make a case. She's got bits of both of those,

both Candace and Laura. Oh, a little bit to this lady we're going to talk about this week, Elizabeth Dilling. Have you heard that name before? Elizabeth Dilling. Do you see why I was like, we need Katie for this episode? Yeah. Okay, I'm excited. I do not know anything about Elizabeth Dilling. She's not super famous. Yeah. She is the B-side who are more famous, fascist that I think you will recognize from later on, but like, again, because I guess of misogyny, she never quite got as famous as her, her male fascist counterpart. It's really, the patriarchy. Can I allow to say fuck on Netflix?

Yeah, you can say whatever the fuck you want on that. Yeah, we don't know. There's no rules here. If you know, you've watched Netflix, they don't give a shit. Yeah, you're right. They barely know what's on their own network. Thanks, Netflix. Thanks for the money.

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150 years ago, they were hunting us down to kill us, and now they're hunting down immigrants to deport them. This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be, and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Paul Verze here, and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. I'm Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and IHeart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. It's that and then there's everything else. Dude, his whole life has sounded like the first drop of a roller coaster.

I mean, I can't even tell you. Paul how crazy it was. It was insane. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Elizabeth Alois Kirkpatrick was born on April 19th, 1894 in Chicago. Now, if 1894 and Chicago sound familiar to you, that's because that is the same year and city as the Pullman strike, which is a legendary moment in labor history, began as a local

Chicago strike that became a national boycott and changed U.S. labor law. law forever in the process. And that strike itself was heavily inspired by the trials of the 1893 economic panic that fractured the U.S. economy and helped fuel Eugene v. Debs' creation of the American Railway Union, right? So Chicago, at the time Elizabeth has born, is a real hotbed for labor, for this burgeoning and really exploding American left, which is growing into what some might argue, and probably still to this day would count as its most influential period in American history, is kind of coming up as a result of the things that are sort of happening right around the time Elizabeth has born. So it's kind of going to be important a little that she's never going to adopt any of these kind of politics,

but they are happening around her and very much in the environment that she's growing up in. Like her family is against a lot of these changes. She's going to grow up hearing about them because they're right outside her door, you know? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So little Elizabeth comes into the world in a time and a place that was hugely significant in the history of America. labor and the struggles of the working man against his bosses. And so it's appropriate for the person she would become that even as an infant, she was entirely separate and protected from the

normal world of working class people. This is happening outside her mansion gates, basically. Her father, Dr. Layette Carpatrick, was a famous surgeon. And her mother, Elizabeth Harding, was a homemaker, but both came from very prominent families, right? So both of their families have some degree of, like, financial comfort and her dad, at least initially, is this, like, famous doctor. Kirkpatrick's, her dad's family, had been wealthy landowners in Ireland, but had fled near the end of the 1800s and settled in Virginia. Liz would later describe her father as coming from Scott's Irish stock, and some Googling

around has given me cause to think that her family, basically, if you've ever heard of, like, the Irish land wars, this period of time in which, like, there's a lot of conflict in Ireland over, like, who gets to own what land. There's a lot of conflict as a result of these, like, absentee landlords that piss off a lot of people. Well, her ancestors are some of the absentee landlords. I was going to say they're the absentee ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're like a Scottish family who winds up owning a lot of land in Ireland, you know? Yeah. And I don't know that the Kirkpatrick's had to flee their family estate because they were brutal landlords, but my research

does make that seem likely. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We don't talk enough about Ireland's land wars. It sounds like we're setting up for a family that does not learn from those lessons, perhaps, They're here also resenting the different classes around them. I don't know. Doesn't learn from their lessons and has like a long time grudge against anyone trying to like fix things because they just see that as like you're fucking with my big, you know? Like that's the people that she comes from. So let's talk a little about the Irish land wars because people don't often enough. And it's a fun bit of history.

Only about 5% of the land in Ireland from the late 1700s to the end of the 1800s was only. owned by Irish Catholics, despite the fact that Irish Catholics were most of Ireland. People got very angry about this, and it led to successive waves of protests and even violent insurgent direct action. It is very possible, then, that their Kirkpatrix had to flee because they wound up on either side of this dispute. But the fact that they had a family estate and came to the U.S. with money makes me suspect that they weren't fighting for the freedom of poor men, right? These are probably on one specific side of the land wars. Pretty solid guess. Meanwhile, the Harding family, Elizabeth's mother's people, came from a long line of Anglican bishops, which also makes it likelyer that her dad's people were foreign landlords at some point.

Anyway, she grows up fairly well off. In a 2002 article for the Journal of American Studies writer Christine Erickson describes her family as financially comfortable upper middle class, right? That's where they're coming from. Her parents have enough money that even though these are pretty rough times, they're able to travel fairly regularly. but they're not able to send the kids abroad with them. So Liz grows up not traveling much herself, but her mom and her aunts are always visiting Europe, spending their inheritance,

and she grows up hearing about that. Sure, okay. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, for the parents anyway. Sounds fun. Yeah.

Who wants to bring your kid? Sorry, kids. You had to stay. Mom and dad are off for a bit. Mom and dad are off for a bit, but also in this period of time, mom and dad are off for a bit for like eight months because, yeah, it takes a while to sail. It's not a flight.

You're going to be raised by some lady we hired. Bye. See you when you're nine. Yeah, exactly. Be back in a year, baby. Yeah, be back in a year, maybe. Her father died when she was relatively young. And he dies a sudden and surprising death.

And this leaves her mother in charge of the family. But it says a lot about their overall financial state that even though her father dies pretty early on, this never affects them financially as far as we can see, right? They remain comfortable, which means they're very well all. off. So she's going to grow up with extremely conservative values and politics, but she's also going to grow up because her mom is the only one running things after a while, she's going to grow up very used to seeing a woman call the shots, right? And this is going to have a conflicting effect on her, right? Because she both comes to believe that like traditional values are best and also

she's used to women being in charge in her own life. Yeah. That's kind of tough to square at that Point in time, I guess. I was going to say, as are you, Robert. Yeah, yeah. My mom is very reminiscent of this, where, like, she was a very conservative person and also did not understand why men should be doing anything. Like, those were two ideas that coexisted within her. Yeah. As Amy Dye wrote of Elizabeth in her graduate thesis for East Tennessee University, for East Tennessee State University, quote,

If her father had not been exposed to such a strong independent woman as her mother, Before Dr. Lafayette Carpatrick's death, he strongly believed the woman belonged in the home and away from both politics and business. In contrast, her brother Lafayette was encouraged to pursue a business career and at the age of 23 had acquired financial security through land development in Hawaii. He subsequently traveled around the world for three years with Baron von Zeppelin and continued to lead a privileged life until his death at 1948. Again, for an idea of the money she comes from, her brother is best friends and traveling buddies with Baron von Zeppelin. It doesn't get much older money than that than Baron von Zeppelin. Having a road trip with the Zeppelin guy. So, yeah, they're doing fine even with Dad out of the picture.

Little Elizabeth would be described during her childhood as, quote, highly emotional and an eager girl with a dramatically sculptured face, enormous brown eyes, and a quick, giddy laugh, somewhat lonely, and casting about in search of a career. Which is also interesting. She will always espouse very traditional values. she's always looking for a job for herself. She never is interested in just being a homemaker.

Not, you know, no problem with that, but she is never interested in just sitting at home and raising kids. She wants to do something out in the world that people are aware of. It's actually a very fascinating dynamic for somebody. I mean, we're seeing it still to this day. Yes, your mother, I guess, was this way, but this is this big push in the conservative party for traditional values. And yet they're going to be advocating for their own courage. It seems counterintuitive, but interesting for this woman. Yeah, I mean, it's the Phyllish Laughley thing, right?

Of like, I don't think women should be doing any of this stuff. Also, as a woman, I really like to have a big career. And also, like, modern times, that's very Erica Kirk. Yeah. It's very Erica Kirk. That is exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. I mean, if either of you have seen any of, like, the interview clips from TPA USA's,

like, first big, like, women's event that Erica Kirk led, it's all, when people are interviewed, it's all like this where they're like all over the map on if they're like, well, women can have it all, but they have to do this. But women could have it all. But not those women. It's really interesting coverage just to like get an insight into that ideological thinking. It's fascinating. Anytime you have to be, you have that much cognitive dissonance in your belief system.

It always winds up being fascinating on some level. And like in a way, like I just, there's no way there would be an Erica, Kirk without a Liz Dilling, without a Phyllis Daly, without a, you know, it's all. She had to crawl so that Erica Kirk could walk. I don't know. I don't know who's doing that. Whatever. So Erica Kirk could come out with fire booming.

Fireworks. Yeah. Behind her. So Elizabeth attends grammar school and a secondary school. She's going to nice schools. Her parents pay money to get her quality education. She studies the concert harp at a Catholic Academy. And she graduates from a girl school and is noted as having an almost.

photographic memory. Her early interest were, and this is not a normal, like, her education's weird, because I can't graph it directly onto a normal one, because she is both doing like normal primary school, secondary school, and also Catholic Academy, women's preparatory finishing

school. Like, she spends years in schools that are just to like teach you how to behave as a woman. Like that's part of her schooling. Because she's like an upper class lady, right? It takes a lot. You got to know where all the forks go and stuff. I imagine there's more to it than forks, but Forks seem like they're pretty key.

How to stand up straight. How to smile politely. That's right. How to ride side saddle? There's a way you're supposed to ride as a lady that's the polite way. There's the rude way. Maybe side saddle is the rude way. I don't know much about horses.

I really feel like side saddle should be reserved for men anatomically speaking, but I digress. Look, the horse girls can correct us because I don't know much about riding horses. I know there's a way you're supposed to ride and there's a way that you're not supposed to ride as an old-timey woman. But I don't know, I don't know which is which. Anyway, she goes to all these different weird school. She learns how to be a lady and a good Catholic. She's interested primarily in both classical music and the French language. I don't actually know if she ever gets what you'd call a normal college degree,

but during her time in Catholic school, she was made to study the Bible. And so this is kind of like knowledge and faith are always weirdly wrapped up with her, but also knowledge and like the performance of societal roles. are always directly locked together. She never just gets an education that's an education on its own. It's always an education partly in how to exist in a certain social hierarchy, if that makes sense. It does make sense. As Amy Dye writes in 1917, as the first U.S. forces are getting their boots dirty in World War I,

Elizabeth meets a man described as a young army officer from Arizona, who, quote, introduced her to a completely new way of thinking. This is her first fascist boyfriend. So she meets this mystery army officer who starts saying, You know, you got to read these books, right? And so he starts giving her Kant and Nietzsche and Hegel. And next, quote, after introducing Elizabeth to these forward thinkers, he contradicted himself by saying, women did not count as human beings. Oh.

So he's like, you need to read this Nietzsche, but you're a woman, so you can't read it. You're not a person. But here, you should have some Hegel. But here, read it. But you're not really a person. But you're not really a person. You're too dumb. You're not going to get it.

But here, God is dead. I get the, she doesn't say this. But I get the feeling he's like intermittently flirting with her and yelling at her. Like it's one of those kind of weird guys. And she's totally into it. If you had ever been flirted with by a fascist soldier from Arizona, you would know that that's part of the game. That's part of the day. That's how it works.

Yeah. Well, she gets that beautiful experience and you can tell it completely awakens her, right? This is where she becomes an ideological thinker for the first time. And the fact that her ideological awakening comes courtesy of a man who does not. not consider her human is very telling and very bleak. But what else are you going to say? Not saying I have empathy

because I have a feeling she's not going to be someone I like. However, it's just a holy shit. It's pretty fucked up. Yeah, you guys could check out. Just imagine like trying to tell your other lady friends like, yeah, this wonderful guy, he introduced me to all these great books. I'm really thinking in new ways

about like what makes a person a person? I don't think I'm one according to him. Anyway, he's He's nice. He's an uncomfortable relationship. Yeah. At any rate, this does not last. I really wish I knew what happened with this guy.

Maybe he was just too much of an insult. Or maybe he goes on and dies in World War I. You can only hope he dies in World War I. That's my guess. I'm hoping the old Dubub Uno did us a solid on that one. At any rate, not long after whatever happens with this guy in, she continues reading philosophy. And she starts thinking, really.

hard about the underlying order of society. And as she's thinking about this, Elizabeth meets her future husband, Albert Walwick Dilling. Now, I don't think Albert Walwick Dilling is the kind of guy who's going to tell her she's not a person. He's the kind, I get the feeling he's very ideologically malleable. I think he's naturally more conservative, so he's comfortable with her ideology. But I also think he goes along with her a lot. Yeah. Okay. And I think he gets, one of the things he gets from her is that he gets to pretend and feel like and she will reinforce that he is in charge while also being in charge of a lot. And so he doesn't have to be in charge of as much. That's the feeling I get.

Exactly what you mean. You've seen these kinds of relationships, right? 100%. She's like, I defer to my man, but she's the one that's telling him. Yeah. I defer to my man. God help him if he has an idea of his own. Yeah.

I deferred to my man as long as it's, he goes with what I said. Exactly. So at the time, he was a lawyer. He had trained as an engineer originally. He had been born in Salt Lake City back in 1892. By the time he was ready for college, and I don't think he was Mormon. I think it probably would have mentioned that. She certainly is not.

And I don't think she would have been cool with a practicing Mormon, given her beliefs. But I'm not really sure. By the time he's ready for college, he'd migrated to the Chicago area, and he took the Illinois bar in 1917. Now, Elizabeth had already refused one marriage proposal by the time she met Albert, but for some reason this guy sweeps her off her feet and after nine months the two are married and the romantic city of leport indiana this would have been made of nineteen eighteen yes yes the city of unbridled fucking that's what we call leport indiana that's the city motto actually laport indiana it's illegal to buy condoms here you know just so you know leport everybody catch the fever and something else because again condoms are illegal After this point, Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, though, is now Elizabeth Dilling.

And this is the name that she's going to be famous under, right? Everyone knows her as Elizabeth Dilling. That's how she becomes Elizabeth Dilling. She marries this Albert Dilling guy. She's 24 years old in 1918. And after a brief honeymoon, she and Albert moved to a suburb of Chicago, Wilmot, where they borrow money and buy a home. Albert claims that when they got married, he had, quote, nothing to offer but a good education, bright prospects, good help and some sizable debts. but Liz had family money of her own.

In just two years, Albert was made chief engineer of the Chicago Sanitary District, and his career would continue to rise over the coming years. While he was making a career for himself as a high-level engineer for one of the largest cities on Earth, he would eventually become the city engineer for union station development and the engineer assistant to the commission for public works, Liz was inheriting the money that would ensure she never needed to utilize public works herself. Her husband helps make sure that, like, the city's public transit works And Elizabeth inherits enough money that she doesn't have to use it.

Yeah. Great stuff. I can only imagine their like 2026 dating profiles. Oh, my God. These two in 2026 are definitely the weird natalist freaks who wind up on the news every six months talking about like their 11 kids that they're having to change the world with Elon Musk. Yeah, Liz Dilling definitely like puts her credit score on her dating profile. Yeah, I can see her having an interview with Vanity Fair where she slaps her child at a fucking diner. Yeah.

So she receives enormous inheritances from two aunts and then in the mid-1930s from her mother. So she's very comfortably off, even though her husband is not making a lot of money immediately. But her husband, you know, is making comfortable middle class incomes. You have inherits a lot of money and a good income. They're doing quite well. And they're doing well enough that in short order, before either of them is, you know, particularly old, they're going to have enough money to do what wealthy people do in this. period of time in particular, which is go on really long and elaborate vacations all the time.

So from 1923 to 1939, the Dillings travel overseas 10 times. And these are all multi-week or multi-month excursions. We're talking like Orient Express type shit, where you're on trains and in fancy boats, you've got sleeper car. Like these are not like casual vacations. You can't just jaunt somewhere quickly, right? Yeah, no, this is, this is, yeah, like her mother, months long. Also, famously a bad time for the world financially to have the means to just travel like this. Okay. I mean, they're mostly traveling, although they're out through all the 30s too, you know. So, yeah, like a lot of it is during a really rough time.

Yeah. It's not the main takeaway here, but I'm like, well, it says a lot. Yeah, they're doing certainly fine. It says a lot about what they're doing while the rest of the world is burning. Yeah, well, while the rest of the world is falling to fascism, they're going on like long, elaborate vacations, right? They're doing very comfortable. Their first trip overseas, they get to tour England, the low countries, France, and then Italy, at which point they enter the Vatican City and have a private audience with the Pope.

So they have, like, boat money. Like, that's how comfortable she is. Amy Dye writes that the Dillings had booked this trip in part to get a firsthand account of the aftermath of the First World War, right? Like, that's at least what Elizabeth wants her friends to believe that, like, we're not just doing this as a vacation. we're doing this to get an eye on how Europe's handled, you know, after the war, right? Like, that's the way that she frames this. Making my eyes roll back in my head a little bit. Okay, here's, we're just going to go study the effects.

We're going to go check it out. And I can tell you from experience, if you're in like an active war zone, there are often a lot of people who are eager to talk about what's happening to them right now, in part because they hope that, like, maybe international attention will, like, help their situation. And, like, it's happening right now. And they want people to know about the horrible stuff. when you go to a place that has just been at war like a couple of years ago, they don't usually want to talk about it. They're kind of trying to forget it. So again, this is just like a dumbed idea for a vacation. People have, it's like 1919.

People wandering around, like, don't want to talk to much of America's big. Yeah, what was the war like here in Verdun? You know, was it fun? Did you enjoy it? Like, people would not have a good time and don't want her shit. Completely devastated trying to recover from. Yeah, no, bad timing, babe. Yeah.

How did you think it was, Liz? Bad. And this seems to be what the Dillings encountered. People are not super eager to talk to them. As Dye's account says, quote, Dilling became frustrated by the anti-American attitudes that she had encountered amongst the British and the French. The former allies often gave the United States

no credit for helping win the First World War and often complained that the United States had not entered the war sooner. So, yeah, I think people didn't really want to talk about the war and like folks who'd lost all their money and like their kids didn't want to talk about how great America was for eventually getting involved. Like some fucking British family who lost everything. This would be like, yeah, thanks guys. Really glad you got here in 1917 right on the dot, huh? Yeah.

Yeah, not surprising. Not surprising. She takes this personally. She takes this as an insult to herself. On the steamship home, an English traveler sees a member of her. party who's wearing like a sailor outfit with U.S. Navy printed on it. And he just like start shit talking like them. And it's like, ah, your Navy's a joke, you Americans.

And Liz responds, I don't know if it's such a joke. It's been able to lick Great Britain twice. And I think it could do it again. And first off, Liz, the last time it beat Grayburn was 1912, like, or 1812. Like, I don't know. I don't know if we should be bragging about that in 1918. It just seems a little ahead of the eight ball. It's not been, it's been a while since we fought the British Navy.

I don't know, Liz. And also, it's just like, what a ridiculous reaction to someone saying that who's clearly, like, frustrated that you're walking around talking about what hot shit your military is when you just kind of sauntered in the last minute of like a devastating war. I get why the Europeans are pissed at her. Absolutely. This woman has no self-awareness. No. And this situation, this whole encounter with his rude person on the boat, causes her to make a vow, then and there, that if another war ever came to Europe, she will

work herself to the bone to keep the United States out of it. Because of these ungrateful Europeans, I'll make sure we never enter another war to support Europe again, you know? That's Liz's encounter here. It's so pathetic. It's really sad. I'm not surprising. I mean, I'm always, whenever I'm here, it's impossible to not draw parallels to modern day, I've already done it several times, but it's It's just so pathetic how easily some people get offended and vow to make that their idea of an entire place for the rest of their life anyway. Yeah, yeah. It's sad. Like, they didn't even have anything to do with, honestly.

But anyway, you know what else is sad? Not listening to ads. You know what? You're right. It is such a heartbreak. I love ads. You end up how old weekend. gold tickets to Lasso Montreal

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In the moment. and it felt like it was going on forever. I didn't think I was going to live. I was terrified. There was no anything inside those eyes. They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. That was your first murder case?

Yes, sir. Fair to say this was the biggest case of your career? Yes, sir. Rape a murder for a child. She's as bad as it gets. I would think so. People wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place

by Creveith. Anthony DePippo. Anthony DePippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grief. Listen to the devil's quarry on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And to hear the devil's quarry ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lobba for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now, There's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hoda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats.

Listen to Joy 101 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. Hey, guys, Paul Verzi here, and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. Farrow's Big Money Players Network and I Heart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. It's that and then there's everything up. He would just shout one line and it would murder. Marie Lunch!

Bill Burr. Let's talk about the best moments that we had on the road. I would love a cocktail. Do Joe could get last row middle seat on a Southwest Airlines flight? Joe, how was your flight? It was great. The guy on Penn State moving on the field. And the player thought Joe is his is a lot.

former coach. And he hugged him and hugged him and Joe just went with it. And the guy goes, what are you doing here, coach? And Joe just goes, man. And you walk in and it is bananas. I mean, it's a feast for the eyes. And I was like, it's not my thing either. But we're here.

When in Rome? Top athletes, chefs, musicians, everybody. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back and we're talking about how we never skip the ads on podcasts. Whatever. What does that mean? Sometimes I listen to extra ads, you know? Sometimes I listen to ads that aren't even for podcasts. Sometimes I just fall asleep directly in front of a billboard, you know, so I can worship it.

Do you have an ad playlist, too, for bedtime? Yes. It's only an ad playlist for bedtime, to be fair. All right. So let's get back to Liz Dilling. So, yeah, Liz has just had this experience heading home from Europe where these ungrateful Europeans were not deferringed. enough to the U.S. Navy, so she decides to stop the U.S. from ever helping Europe in a war again. I don't know if I believe that actually happened, in part because Liz is going to be, like,

anti-war during World War II because she's a fascist. And I think maybe she invents this story because it's like a more palatable truth, as opposed to like, I don't want the U.S. to get involved in World War II because I like the Nazis. She could be like, no, they're so ungrateful. After all the rudeness they showed us last time, why would we risk our lives again for them? You know, I kind of think maybe she just makes this up after the fact. But it's possible that this actually happens. Like, I don't know one way or the other. Despite their frustrations with Europeans,

the Dillings continue to book regular trips abroad throughout the 20s and the 30s. And at first, this seems to have been mainly for the sake of hedonism. But I think Elizabeth's strong Catholic upbringing makes her feel guilty for just traveling to have fun. I think this is why for most of these trips, there's always a second purpose like, oh, we wanted to explore how World War I affected them. Or we want to, she's going to explore communist countries at a certain point in the future. And I think part of it is that she feels bad about just spending her money on vacations because she's a cat, she's fundamentally a Catholic in her soul. I mean, she's an Episcopalian as an adult, but she was raised Catholic.

Can you never get over that shit? I think there's an element of that of like, this trip has to be more than just a trip. Otherwise, I'm not being a good person, right? Mm-hmm. Whatever the reason. She's not being a good person anyway, but she's not being a good person anyway, but she's, this is important to her. So she starts convincing her husband to let her book trips, like their yearly vacations, to the communist countries, which have just started to be a thing, right? The communist revolution, you know, has just swept over what had been imperial Russia.

And it's starting to take other places, too. So this is like the first time in which you could have gone to a communist country, right, kind of in the 1930s, 1920s and 30s. And so she starts convincing her husband to start booking trips for these different, for like Soviet Russia, right? because she wants to study the impact of communism and eventually write books about it. So in the summer of 1931, her husband helps the books trips to Moscow and Leningrad. Now Elizabeth is later going to write a book about what she saw in the Soviet Union, and she will express her horror at the nightmare she saw there, at the quote, atheism, sex degeneracy, broken homes, and class hatred that she witnessed in the post-revolutionary USSR.

And, indeed, the Soviet Union at the start of the 30s, was a nation that had recently endured great horrors, a horrific civil war, and was currently enduring horrors, the horrors of the Stalinist era, right? It would very soon endure even worse horrors, the horrors of the Nazi invasion. So, you know, it's a tough time, Russia in the 30s. There are plenty of things that Dilling could have seen in Russia in 1931 that are horrific, right? Plenty of things that would have actually reflected badly on the Soviet government. However, it's important I let you know that her hatred of the Soviet Union is not based on any of those things. When you think about the actual bad things that were occurring in the USSR in 1931, Elizabeth isn't

allowed to see any of them. She's on a vacation that she's booked through the Soviet government. They have minders. She's not traveling freely. She's only visiting the areas they're allowed to visit. And so she's not being horrified because she's like snuck through and seen some evidence of a, of a fuck up that the government was covering up of Starve. She's angry because she's seeing like churches that have been turned into like art museums. And she's like, ah! She's angry at the beautiful parts.

She's losing her mind. She's losing her mind at it. Right? And she's pissed about like, oh, the people here aren't as well fed as Americans and like, were they under the czar? Is that the Soviet Union's fault? Or is that just the fact that like it's Russia in 1931? Like, again, I'm not one to minimize the faults of the Stalinists there of the

Soviet Union particularly. But you can't just be like, wow, people aren't as. big in Russia in 1931, that's just communism. Nah, Liz. That goes back further. I'm sorry, hon. Yeah. It's the laziest possible takeaway from what she presumably saw, but okay.

Yeah. And again, the Soviet Union is very well aware that Western countries are spying on them constantly. They are looking for people like Liz Dilling in these trips. So again, I don't think there's any chance. Liz would have seen any actual, like, bad thing. Right? She's just making this up based on like shit she sees that's like uncomfortable to her. And the primary things that she sees over there that are uncomfortable to her is that she doesn't know, there aren't rich people in the Soviet Union that she sees, right?

She notices none of the people of my class are here, right? There's no fancy places to go. There's no high-end hotels, right? And the society is openly atheistic. And that's what she is reacting to. Christine Erickson summarizes how Dilling would later describe her trip. She noted with concern the idle crowds and abandoned children roaming the streets bordered by rundown buildings in desperate need of repair. She described in vivid detail the poor miserable workers' stores where the proletariat was forced to shop.

What little food stocked the shelves was overpriced and fly infested, the site of Christian churches being converted into anti-religious museums and the shock of seeing nude bathers swim in a river under the shadow of one Moscow church, an event Dilling captured on film, clearly signaled to her that communism bred atheism and encouraged immorality. So whatever bad things are actually happening, the Soviet Union, remember when Dilling talks about the horrors of communism, she's talking about nude bathers. Right. Near a church. That's what scares her. That's what scares her. Not anything else.

Not anything else. Not Stalin, you know. Not the NKVD. Offended by poverty and atheism. Yeah. Wow. Are you rich people? They're not the abandoned children.

They're naked? She was abandoned. I'm sure there are abandoned children in Moscow in 1931 because they've just had a civil war that killed millions of people. Millions and millions of people that was vastly exacerbated by Western involvement, by the way. You know, like, you can't, again, you can't look at any of the stuff she's seeing and just be like, well, this is all the fault of communism. That's just silliness, right? And so ironically, while Liz is going to spend the rest of her life talking about the nightmare world that she saw, the things she's scared about are like any effort to reduce inequality and any effort to reduce the power of the church. That's what actually upsets her.

She would also complain later in her writing that Soviet men seem to have no interest in her at all. They didn't find her hot. The bedbugs in the Grand Hotel in Moscow were wild about me, the listless waiters, not at all. Which Erickson suggests is Elizabeth trying to display, quote, An unsettling image of communism's power to emasculate. How could any man ignore Dilling? These men aren't even straight if they don't like me. Like, again, her big issues with Stalinist Russia are nude bathers, I'm not hot.

Just honestly, it just does not sound like the place for you to vacation. I don't think you picked the wrong place to vacation. I don't think Moscow in 1931 was for you. Yeah, again, your timing is all off. Your timing's really bad. If you'd gotten to Moscow in 1917, things might have been a lot more interesting, Liz. Definitely. At least from my perspective.

So her call to action came during a tour of the Moscow Museum of the Revolution, where a party guide told her tour group that the world revolution, which had started in Russia, had now expanded to China and would end in the United States. He then showed them an exhibit that featured a fictional map of the future world, where a communist U.S. had renamed all of its cities. And, you know, this is obvious propaganda, right? Like, this isn't an evidence of the actual capabilities, as we all know, of the Soviet Union's ability to infiltrate the United States. But this works perfectly on Liz. She, and this is everything she needed, too, in terms of, like, a useful thing she could carry home for her propaganda. So when she gets home, she is eager to preach the bad word. Elizabeth claims that when she tried to tell her friends, her suburbanite intellectual friends,

and my own Episcopal minister about what she'd seen over there, they expressed bitter opposition to her telling the truth about Russia. Now, I don't know how much I believe that. I can't imagine people who are better informed that in her saying, hey, Liz, like, there's obvious issues going on over there and with that government. But it doesn't seem like you actually know anything about those issues. It seems like you're just angry that there aren't any, like, luxury stores and they don't believe in God. And maybe that's dumb. Like, I wonder if maybe that's what her friends were saying is like, Liz, it doesn't seem like you actually know anything about the problems over there. It seems like you're angry at the hotels weren't nice.

Hey, Liz, are you a elitist snob, maybe? I mean, is that might happen in here? Do you suck? Oh, okay. This is it possible? You just suck? Liz, is it possible that you're kind of an asshole? Wow.

I am imagining her friends always being relieved when she goes on one of the big journeys. And then they're like, fuck. Oh, thank God, she's out for a couple months. She's going to bring out the photo album again. I don't want to tell us about it. I don't know. Just pretend you're horrified or whatever. Like, I do wonder how much of this is them having an issue just because they know she's full of shit.

And I suspect even more, it's just like, oh, shit, I don't want to see Liz's vacation pictures. Do you want to see that video of nude people swimming in Moscow? I don't really care. Like, who wants to watch this shit again? I went swimming, but then they didn't have caviar for me afterwards. It was a hardship. Hell, hell. And Liz sees the fact that her friends do not find these stories entertaining, evidence of their own suicidal blinkered blindness, the kind that would lead her very class to march to its own extermination if it wasn't careful.

So she became a woman on a mission to ensure her fellow citizens understood the extent of the communist menace, and particularly the infiltration of leftist agents at every level of American society and government. In one of her early pieces, Elizabeth expressed her belief that good Christian women did not have the right. to sit at home and avoid conflict as a fire burns in the nation's basement, and radical political subversives fill the platforms with their dirt in anti-American ideas. So she's very pissed at her fellow rich friends for not, you know, doing more to stop this, to stop the spread of communism. She sounds like a joy, a joy to have it at dinner party. She sounds like so much fun.

Just a hoot. Yeah. Again, if she'd had Twitter, she would be non-st, she would have left all of her friends and family behind to tweet nonstop. Like, you know this person today. We've seen her. One thousand percent. We know several of them. So initially, Elizabeth wrote letters to newspapers and spoke up in local meetings,

but she found little purchase for her ideas until she befriended Iris McCord. Iris is a teacher at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Now, MBI, as it is also known, is a private evangelical college that had been founded by a wealthy businessman turned evangelist named Dwight Moody in 1886. Moody seems to actually mostly been an over. guy. He was a, sided with the union during the Civil War, which, you know, so he gets some ups there. His whole big thing was that in the wake of the Civil War, he decided that, like, evangelical Christianity needed to train what he called gap men, right? These were men who would stand between

the laity and the ministers. So people who aren't, like, just normal civilians, but they aren't, like, professional men of faith either, who are trained to do, like, city mission work who can, like, go and reach people in the cities and stuff. So that's Moody's idea, and that's where the Bible college comes from, right? Okay. And it's important, you know, MBI starts as a college before Christianity is political in the United States. That's not entirely accurate.

There are left and right-wing politicians who use Christianity, but no one would say Christianity is definitely a more a left-wing or a right-wing thing in this area. You couldn't clearly say that yet. The religious right is not a thing in this point in time, really. That's a more modern thing. Right. But there are religious conservatives and religious conservatives. and religious hardliners, right, who are conservative.

And Iris is one of them, and so is Elizabeth Dilling. And the fact that Iris taught there and loved Dillings' reactionary rants says something about where many of Moody's staff sat politically, even in those days. So Iris used her connections to get Elizabeth invited to speak at numerous local churches about the communist threat to the American way of life. And this helps put Elizabeth's ideas in front of a bunch of different women, some of whom are pretty influential, who have, like, spots in the D.A.R. you know, and these other groups, you know, the Daughters of the American Revolution and the like.

And so she, for the next couple of years, she starts making an okay site living, scaring her rich friends, right? And she becomes, she really isn't, she's actually really good at public speaking. She's got the gift of, like, entertaining and capturing an audience. She is an electrifying speaker in person. She's able to get a lot of these people to be just as scared and crazy about communism as she is. and her success earns her enough attention that she begins getting invitations all across the United States, not just from churches, but from civic organizations now. And the D.A.R. starts inviting her to speak at a bunch of its local chapters.

The American Legion starts inviting her to speak at different local, you know, events. And she's soon making enough money doing this to support her efforts and ensure she doesn't have to mooch off of her husband or her inheritance to have a career, a thing she didn't believe good women ought to have anyway. Must be really hard for her to square those things. It's got to be filled with guilt. Okay. To go from dilettante to a professional media rabble-rouser in a year or so. Yeah.

How shameful. Must be hard for her. So, yeah, the repinity with which Elizabeth had gone from pinning her little essays to addressing crowds around the country clearly went to her head. So she decided to write a book, The Red Revolution, Do We Want It Here? In this book, she railed against parlor pinks. who were broad-minded but didn't judge people based on their political tendency. These weak people, she argued, let communist agents infiltrate society and corrupt children with their ideals, right?

It's these broad-minded parlor pinks who aren't, like, hostile enough to socialism. That's how they sneak in. That's how they get your society. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And you know who's going to destroy our society? I, Donald Trump.

Well, maybe. Maybe. but perhaps it'll be the products and services that support this podcast. We can all hope. We can all hope. You know, that's my dream. Hope. Fingers crossed.

You end up howl with weekend gold tickets to Lassau Montreal. Thomas Rhett. Mumford and Sons. Well, here's my pride and here's my shame. John Party. Old Dominion. Carly Pierce and more. And the prize gets even sweeter.

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In the moment It felt like it was going on forever I didn't think I was going to live I was terrified There was no Anything inside those eyes They turned black It scared the hell out of me

That was your first murder case Yes sir Fair to say this was the biggest case of your career Yes sir Rape a murder for children. She's as bad as it gets. I would think so. People wake up.

I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Crevent and DePippo. Anthony DePippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grief. Listen to the devil's quarry on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the devil's quarry ads.

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Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby is presented by CVS. Hey guys, Paul Verze here and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and I Heart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. It's that and then there's everything else. He would just shout one line and it would murder. Marie Lunch.

Bill Burr. Let's talk about the best moments that we had on the road. I would love a cocktail. Dude, Joe could get last row, middle seat, on a Southwest Airlines flight. Joe, I was your flight. It was great. The guy on Penn State, we were on the field,

and the player thought Joe is his former coach. And he hugged him. He hugged him, and Joe just went with it. And the guy goes, what are you doing here, coach? And Joe just goes, man. And you walk in, and it is bananas. I mean, it's a feast for the eyes. And I was like, it's not my thing either,

but we're here. When in Rome? Top athletes, chef, Musicians, everybody. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, we're back. The daughters of the American Revolution in particular loved her work. And if you're not an American or you just don't know, the D.A.R.

is like one of the oldest groups of, like, rich ladies in America, rich white ladies. Okay. If you're not an American, you just have to watch Gilmore Girls. That's exactly what I was going to say. Gilmore. Huge plot boys. Emily Gilmore is a daughter of the. American Revolution. It means your relatives date back as far as they can in the history of the

United States while not being like indigenous, obviously. Remember, there's that fantastic episode of Gilmore Girls, Katie, where it's Rory's 21st birthday, and she's become friends with all of her grandmother's friends from the D.A.R. And Luke goes up to them, and they keep saying, oh, we know Rory from the D.R. And he goes, what's the D.A.R? And they all laugh in his face. I remember. It's great. It's great. And for the listeners that also get that, you're really enjoying this story. If you're Robert and I've no idea what I'm talking about, you seem very baffled and confused. I didn't watch the Gilmore girls, but I... You should. Also, yeah, I don't think I will. But I will talk more about the D.A.R. Robert, you will. Love it. It was written for you. Okay. I don't think that's accurate. So the D.A.R in particular, loved Elizabeth's work. And they purchased 10,000 copies. of the Red Revolution, Do We Want It Here?

And distribute it to their local chapters. Elizabeth became a major name in the world of reactionary agitation. And she became increasingly well known among blue bloods like the ladies of the D.A.R. This was a scene she considered herself basically part of because these are the ladies she wants to be friends with. She really wants to be a D.A.R. lady. But her family, again, they're pretty recent immigrants. I think on both sides. They can't be.

They can't be. They can't be. It's death to her. She hates it. She can't ever join. She'll never be that good. They don't, they'll never going to like you. Your family hasn't been here that long, and there's snooty assholes who don't have souls.

Like, they're dead already. But so are you, Liz. I'm going to guess that that doesn't radicalize her to have empathy with people that have less than her. She just desperately wants these rich ladies who are even richer than her to like her, right? Because she doesn't have any famous enough ancestors. Right. For a time, getting asked to speak at D.A.R. events and having them reprint her work, seemed like it was at least her getting her foot in the door, but Liz is always

going to be an outsider to this crowd. However, she's now an outsider who's making a full-time living trying to scare people about communists. She started telling anyone who would listen that her cause kept her working until midnight, seven days a week. She's always talking about how hard she works. So she's never, she's a little bit Alex Jones there where she's constantly lying about, I'm up to my neck and stacks of papers, documents that prove this extent of the communist menace. I never rest, right? Although with her in, she might be telling the truth, because I do think she's like a compulsive workaholic. Or at least obsessed with this, like looking for the right word, just feeling like she has to do this.

Yeah, she has to. She's completely empty as a person. There's nothing else to her besides this. She's given up. I would posit that she also was bored when she became, you know, caught up. in this like some sort of an outlet. She was born and empty when she found this. And this is the only thing that's ever made her feel full.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's healthy. So she starts preparing for an even more influential book that she wants to publish. And I'm going to quote from Amy Dye's thesis again here. Dilling began collecting over 100 file cards. Each note card contained the name of a person with pro-communist affiliations.

These file cards sparked her to purchase a large library of books about politics, history, law, philosophy, Jews, communism, organized labor, economics, revolution, and foreign policy. Hey, uh, hey, Liz, I get why you're interested in, like, books of history and law and about, like, organized labor and coffee. Why are Jews? Hey, hey, hey, Liz. Why are they in there? Why are they?

Hey, Liz. We know. Can you explain that a little bit more? We know, we know why Jews are in there. I think we do. We do. We know why. Oh.

This also does. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I Googled her, and I saw an image that I won't reference. right now because I want to see where this is going. Oh, fun. I'm interested in what that image is. So Liz also did a lot of gumshoe work infiltrating local communist organizations in Chicago by

convincing them she wanted to join and asking for exclusive inside information. Now, in reality, she was just getting essays and notices about upcoming meetings, but she always treated this as if she was receiving highly dangerous military intel because that makes her sound cooler. Her inspiration in a lot of this work was a guy named Harry Young, who was the director of the American Vigilant Federation. Now, there's not a lot that remains about Harry, but I found an entry for him on Facipedia,

which describes the Vigilant Intelligence Federation as, quote, an attempt to track radicalism among labor union members. After three decades of monitoring radicals and their organizations in America, it has been said his files exceeded a million names. So, yeah, just keeping track of anyone who's in the labor movement, right? He's keeping a death list ready

just in case anyone wants to go kill these people. Young is also one of the first Americans to distribute the protocols of the learned elders of Zion in the United States. And it said that he received his copy from three white Russians fleeing their failed counter-revolution. So he is one of the first people to spread anti-Semitic propaganda in an organized way in the United States. That's her direct inspiration. Perfect. Yeah. Young is the guy who turns the protocols into a movie for the first time, which helps to create a groundbreaking work of anti-Semitic propaganda that's referenced by Nazis to this day.

Elizabeth knew this about him when they met. In fact, it's why she was excited to work with Young. As Amy Dye writes, Young agreed to help Dilling by letting her look at any of his files that she deemed important to fight the communistic threat. Later, both Young's films and research came into the hands of the federal government. The Department of Justice deemed Young's work as un-American as it featured several racial prejudices that offend most American citizens. So that's her, like, model. That's the guy that she loves. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Good work, Liz. Good judgment, Liz. Yeah, you have great judgment in people. We can certainly say that about you. In the early 1930s, Dilling also helped to found an organization, the Paul Revere's, which she claimed was a patriotic organization to uphold Americanism in opposition to all other isms, such as socialism and communism. Interesting, fascism isn't spelled out there.

She lists severalisms, not fascism. No, it's not. Yeah. She conveniently forgot that ism. Yeah, I'm sure if you pressed her, she said, Oh, yeah, that too, of course. But she didn't want to bring it up unless you did. Now, the only restriction the Paul Revere's had for new members,

you want to guess the only kind of person who couldn't join her organization, the Paul Revere's of Patriotic Americans, what kind of person would she exclude, do you think? Jews or Black people? It's Jews. No, it's actually not. I bet black people weren't allowed, actually, but that's not what my sources say.

They weren't explicitly banned the way Jewish people were. Although we have to assume they weren't welcome, right? I do. I absolutely assume that. Yeah. But I can also see them only stating outright that Jews are not allowed, in part because they maybe just wouldn't have assumed any black people would ever try to join. They may have just been like, really? Yeah.

Like, you might have been able to join the Paul Revere's as a black person as sort of like an airbud situation. It's like, well, no one put this in the rules. Like, we clearly don't want this. They might not have even consulate. even considered that they are people. We did not conceive of this as a possibility. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Too racist to have a race-based entry requirement. Yeah. So in 1934, Liz published what would have become her most influential book, The Red Network, a who's who and handbook of radicalism for patriots. This beautiful book, which you'll be seeing on your screen now, it's gorgeous, red cover, embossed, you know, nice, very, very basic font, but affected. The Red Network, a who's who, and handbook of radicalism for patriots.

This collected all of Elizabeth's research, all of these note cards about these individual people that she's declared communists. This is like almost part of it's like a phone book of leftist radicals. Again, it's kind of a kill list, right? Like McCarthyism, pre-McCarthyism. Hey, you've anticipated one of this book's biggest fans. Did I anticipate? Yes. Tailgitter Joe loves this fucking book.

This will make it into the McCarthy hearings as it happens. Yeah. Oh, wow. Good stuff. So we'll be hearing a lot more from this book and hearing a lot more from it about Liz. But that's all for part one. Katie, you got any plugables to plug at the end here? Yeah.

Oh, sure. I got plugables to plug. You can find me over at Some More News with Cody Johnston. Yay. We got some more news. We've got even more news. They're both in the same channel. Got a Patreon.

Excellent. All right, everybody. Check their Patreon out. Check their channel out. Yeah. And check us out in like a day or so when we return with the rest of the story about Elizabeth Dilling. Yay. I'll be in this spot for the next two days.

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It scared the hell out of me. Evil, wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Crevette and DePippo. Anthony DePippo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grief. Listen to the devil's quarry in the Bone Valley Feed on the iHeart Radio app.

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