Behind the Bastards - Part One: Frank Fay, The Fascist Who invented Stand Up Comedy

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Robert sits down with Andrew Ti to discuss the ground breaking performer who created modern stand up comedy and also palled around with the KKK.   (2 Part Series)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Coalzo Media Oh my goodness, gracious, gosh, golly jeepers. It's behind the bastards, a podcast about the worst people in all of history. And today, the worst people in all of history are me and Sophie, because even though this podcast has a video version that some of you listen to, we're not going to be on video this week, which will not affect the vast majority. of our listeners, and you're like, why, why are you telling it to us? Because some people watch this on YouTube and we're going video off. Why? Because I look like shit today. And I feel like shit today. I was going to say you're just being sympathetic to me, but yes. Well, no, no, because I was the first one to go, I'm not doing video today. I'm not doing a video today.

And then you joined my cause. Andrew T. Our guest, are you feeling like shit today? I am I am a little sleepy because I stayed up too late watching TV I got the Eppy BPPs a little I was watching slow horses are you a slow horses fan you seem like you would be I watched the first season of it and I love Commissioner Gordon or whatever that guy's real name is and he's lovely in it I'm kind of over spy shows I guess. I used to love them. I don't know. I guess I need to see, it's got to be real different for me to get super, but I watched the first season. It was fine. Yeah. It's not very different. I will say,

I think what I thought was going to happen was it's played as it's maybe going to be more of a comedy. And then it's a pretty straight ahead spy show after the first bit. Yeah, it's a different kind of spy thing. It's just doing spy stuff. They're just like the underdogs, I guess. But by the end of the season, they're just like other spies. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. They're, they get, they get into minimum regular dogs and possibly overdog status pretty quickly. As a CIA agent myself, you know, I've just had enough of that in my day job, destroying the left from within as an agent for, you know, the central

intelligence, whatever, whatever people on Twitter are saying this week. Andrew, you would, I, I will say. you would be I mean I guess it's like too on the nose to have you be a spy I think it would just be too like it's more like Sophie obviously is in the CIA Sophie's definitely in the CIA well yes of course obviously there's never been any doubt in my mind about that yeah why are we telling people about this uh because Sophie I just could are daring them to listen I was a fan of the show burn notice I wasn't really but I like Bruce Campbell and I feel like if you get burned because your spy identity gets revealed, I might get to meet Bruce Campbell.

I'm not really sure how this is going to work, but I'm hopeful. I'll figure it out. Yeah, yeah. Bruce, if you're listening, you want to have a beer? You know? Yeah. Seems like a cool guy. I'm just saying, if Sophie just had one job instead of, you know,

destroying the left from within. Sure. And as she's doing, yes, absolutely. Like, just easy. Speaking of evil people, destroying something. How do you feel about stand-up comedy? I, wait, have we not talking about this? I, I...

Oh, no, we haven't, actually. I have gone... We have, which is why I was like, when I realized what the topic was, I was very excited for this. I mean, listen, I love plenty of stand-up comedians. Yeah. But I think the institution of stand-up comedy is so thoroughly poisoned by, at best, sort of reactionary. like... Wild, huh?

Structure? Interesting. Interesting. It's interesting that stand-up comedy, you know, as valuable and influential as it is, and we all have a lot of stand-up comedy that we love and has meant stuff to us. Yes.

It has this weird reactionary tinge that feels like, oh, that's got to be this modern thing. It couldn't be baked in. It couldn't be that the literal inventor of stand-up comedy as a discipline was a fascist. Could it? I, listen, Robert, if you're going to, this is not only, I, okay, actually, so the little tiny peek by the garden is I was having lunch with my friend and I told him I had to leave because I had to be behind the bastards. And he was like, oh, like, what prep do you do?

And I was like, oh, no, no. It is always just like, that's not the idea. Yeah. The guest comes in and I'm just like, I'm hit with it. And this is going to be by far, not that the other episodes I've been on have not been illuminating. and educational, I think this might be directly useful to my life. Oh, good. I'm excited for today.

Because today, did you know there was a guy who invented stand-up comedy? It's always one asshole. Like a single guy who is credited as being the guy. That is wild. It is wild, right? I would have assumed it would be like, you know, apocryphly Aristotle or some shit like that. You know, there is, there are different people. and obviously things that are kind of in the DNA of stand-up comedy have existed probably for

as long as people have. Like things you can be like, oh, you could kind of see that as being, but there is a guy who invented what we recognize as stand-up comedy where a guy walks up wearing like normal clothing on stage and just starts telling funny stories generally based on observations about the world, right? Yeah. That is something a guy came up with. And that motherfucker's name is Frank Faye.

And we're going to talk about him today. This is amazing. Oh, my God. I'm, listen, I've always thrilled to be here, but this one is like, I can't, I've never been able to articulate why I hate stand-up comedy other than the vibe. So this is fucking great. See, that's how I feel about improv, but it's probably because I've had to go to so many people's improv shows.

Improv is, yeah. Improv is actually evil. But the improv people know this. This is not, we're not, we're not breaking due ground for them. My dear friends know about my extreme loathing of improv. And whenever it's brought up, they look at me and they go, we won't talk about it because it's that bad. I hate improv.

I love, you stand-ups had a big, I've done stand-up. It's had a big influence on me. I loved Bill Hicks. I still do. A lot of his stuff has aged well, some of it hasn't. Stand-up comedians. Yeah. Can I improv?

Obviously, I can name a, yeah. Oh, please. Oh, yeah. Yes, and. Can I improv trauma dump for one second? Oh, sure. Fuck, yeah. In my early 20s, I once had a boyfriend take me to say, I have a special surprise for you.

And I'm thinking, oh, what could that be? I'm girly pop. And then it was, he took me to a improv show where we were the only people in the audience. Oh, hell, yeah. Oh, no. And it was. Oh. And I hate Impob and that man.

And like, I feel like, that was surprising. Yeah. It was bad. I feel like it should be legal in that instance. I feel like it should be legal to kill the people on stage. Not as, not to be mean, not as an act of cruelty. Like, that's just mercy, right? Yeah.

Like, if you're performing improv to an audience of two at a full theater, it's just, it's just kinder to die. And they just kept including us in the bits. Of course. Of course, they have no other idea. What a nightmare. What hell. It was almost as bad as the relationship.

Hey, oh. Hey. End up comedy. Let's do it. No, I was going to say, Sophie, I think it's reasonable, especially. I think if you've been single in your, like, let's say, 20s at any point in Los Angeles or New York, improv is a weirdly big part of that. Yeah. I think a lot more people think it's a good date than...

It's not. It's a bad time. Yeah. It's a bad time and dating comedians also, a real mixed bag. Let me tell you. That's just, I've never done it. I've been the comedian, but based on the experiences of the women I've known who've dated stand-up comedians and me. I was going to say, and you, my friend.

All right. I think that's enough for the cold open. This is an I-Heart podcast. The Girlfriends. is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law. He goes, oh God, Arnett, jailhouse lawyer.

And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her. You're supposed to have been faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her. I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison. The Girlfriends, Jail House Lawyer. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life.

Now, this ain't just any old podcast, honey. We're going to be talking to family members of victims, detectives, prosecutors, and some nationally recognized experts that I have called on over the years to help me work these difficult cases. I've worked hundreds of cold cases you've heard of and thousands you haven't. We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us in learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members. Come be a part of my Zone 7 while building yours. Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum.

on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. For My Heart Podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse.

But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning River Road On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year. It was one of the most liberating things

that I have ever done. Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick. Start banging on the door of the Stonewall like one, boom. This week on Afterlives will separate the truth from the myth. in the life of Marsha P. Johnson. Listen to Afterlives on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. So, we're talking about the inventor of stand-up comedy. He also invented being an MC. Uh, like, he's the first actual MC. This guy's crazy influential. This guy's a nightmare. Yeah, Frank Fay. Yes.

He's also a bigot, an abusive spouse, and an American fascist activist par excellence. So, holy trifecta. He's everything, you know, Joe Rogan before Joe Rogan, Joe Rogan. MC, comedian, fascist, yeah. He did it all. He did it all. He did it all. He's killed Tony. He's Joe Rogan.

He's everybody. You know, he's everybody. So. Heyo. I'm sorry. I'm going to hayo a lot this episode. Yeah, I know. That's great. That's great.

Born, Francis, Anthony, Donner, or perhaps Donnar, or perhaps Donnar, D-O-N-A, it's either D-O-N-E-R or D-O-N-A-R. There's both on some documents, and I've, anyway, what, it doesn't really matter. Born Francis Anthony Doner on November 17th, 1891 in San Francisco, California, IA. His parents were what you might call small-time traveling performers. Also, as a note in an episode recently, someone called me out for mispronouncing Nevada, because I called it Nevada A as like a joke. And they were like, Robert doesn't even know, fuck you, fuck you.

It's a bit. Go to hell. I say Nevada right. Fuck off. Anyway, his mother, Mary, was a stage actress at the start of her career. His father, William, was a poet. And also just about everything else. These people are like theater kids, right?

They're proto, they're er theater kids, you know? So much so that they like travel around doing theater with like a traveling group to make a living. A bad living. They're not doing well. So his father was a lyric poet who, prior to meeting his mom, who was a stage actor, his dad had been like a poet and a conductor on the Southern Pacific Railroad. He'd fought Indians. He'd prospected in a mind.

But it was as an actor and a comedian that he came to be known as Chicago Billy Fay. Now, again, that's like not, I think, the name he's born under. I think it's a stage name that he adopts, although it's a little unclear to me. at any rate Frank starts he and he and his wife get together and they start traveling around this like traveling vaudeville show and we'll talk about vaudeville but basically it's a traveling variety show

right and they're performing doing different kinds of bits going all around the country while their little boy is a small child and because everybody has to like do something to contribute to the company that they're keeping he starts performing as a very

little kid right he's maybe four years old at the oldest when he starts performing on stage. Glad child labor got worked into this early. Oh, yeah. No, they don't give a shit at this. No one does. Kids are working in factories.

This is like ethical by the standards. You know, early, late 1800s child labor. His first stage role is as a potato bug in the play Babes in Toyland. And his biographers all suggest that he changed his name from Francis Donner to Frank Faye because it read better on a marquee at some point in his childhood. I don't think that's true. The scant genealogical evidence I can find from WikiTree suggests his father was born as William Faye, although his dad may have taken that name because we know that he was born

as Donner. So it's a little unclear. Did his dad adopt Faye as a stage name? And so Frank started using Faye as a stage name. His mom's last name was Tynan. I don't really know. Everyone seems to say he picked the name Frank. Faye, but it really does look like his dad

did, and he just decided to take the last name his dad did. But I don't have, like, stronger evidence on it than that. I mean, I feel like tracking down Carnie's real names is going to be perpetually tough. Yeah, like, yeah, who cares, right?

I always do my best with this sort of thing, but these are fucking Carnies. Who knows what their real names were? Nobody had births certificate. Poor people didn't have births in 1891. Like, there's no record of these people. Everyone's an alias. You think these fuckers got social security cards?

So the family sprint Frank's childhood, crisscrossing the nation, as part of a fairly popular vaudeville act. Now, I mentioned that earlier. Let's talk about what vaudeville was. Do you know anything about vaudeville, Andrew? I mean, I guess I'm realizing now most of my knowledge of vaudeville almost certainly comes from Looney Tunes. Right, Lutie Tunes, and maybe some families. Seth McFarland's obsessed with it.

So it winds up in all of his shit, too. Vodville was the number one form of entertainment from, like, the late 1800s and up to the early 1900s in the U.S. Like during kind of like the Victorian era and a little after, like vaudeville is the big, all over the West. And it had started about 50 years before Frank's birth. So we're talking in like the mid-18, early, like the 1840s, 1850s, it started in France. And it was originally kind of like a comedy act and like pretty focused on comedic performances.

But it changes in the UK. There's some like they introduce kind of more stage elements and people start like adding like one act plays or like they'll do like scenes from famous plays. So you'll do like a little bit of Shakespeare or something. You know, just the good bit. Some do like Mark Antony's funeral oration or whatever. And by the time it's migrated to the U.S., It's everything, right? It's almost, it's essentially kind of like a quasi-circircus style act, right?

Yeah. And probably the closest modern equivalent to what vaudeville was when it kind of hits its height in the U.S. and the late 1800s would be like the modern late night show, or maybe to be more accurate, like late night in like the era of Johnny Carson, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a little bit of everything. It's a little bit of everything.

There's not like a main host most of the time. Like sometimes there'll be a guy and it's him and he'll like come I want to introduce the act, but he's not like the draw in the way like Carson was or like Colbert's, you know, on his soon-to-be-late show, right? But it is like a late-night show in that you've got a bunch of different things, a little bit, as you said, a little bit of everything. So you'll have comedians coming up and like doing skits, right? So they'll pie each other in the face or whatever.

You'll have actors do bits of plays. Sometimes you'll have one act, full one-act plays performed. You'll have musicians come on and do songs in between acts. You'll have stunts. you'll have trained animals. There's a little bit of like, even like a morning show, right? That kind of there's some of that DNA in there, right? There's like you could like fucking the view is in the line of descent from vaudeville.

Right. You know what it also sounds like a little bit? There's a little bit of like just America's got talent in there. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. This is like this is the primordial ooze from wherein like almost all modern entertainment kind of comes out of is vaudeville, right? And, yeah, by the time it hits the, again, it's different in every country in the West, but by the time it hits the U.S., it's become, it's, it's kind of hard to tell where a circus

ends in vaudeville begins sometimes, right? And there are like circuses that are like vaudeville, basically, right? Right. There's a lot of Saturday Night Live, you know, or a lot of vaudeville DNA in Saturday Night, right? Because often these comedies skits do kind of lean political, too. Now, there's a lot of racism baked into vaudeville in the U.S., because one major popular thing in vaudeville are in the U.S.

I mean, I'm sure this happened in Europe, too, but it's particularly U.S. thing, are minstrel shows, right? Right. M-I-N-S-T-R-E-L. I've run into zoomers who don't understand or think I'm talking about menstruation. Very different thing. That would be a really different show. This is, minstrel shows are white people dressing in blackface and pretending to be racist caricatures of black Americans, right?

it's just super racist that's all we need to say about it right now the best thing i can say for young frank is that i don't think he performed in any of these minutes maybe he did right as a kid there's a decent chance he wound up doing something like just because everyone does a little bit of everything but i don't find any of that written in his backstory instead he's really drawn from a young age to dramatic acting which which separates him his father is a comedic actor and frank really likes doing shakespeare you know from as soon as he can he's doing every shakespeare when they're doing these segments from Shakespeare plays, he estimates that by the time he was 15, he had performed in pieces of every single one of the Bard's dramatic plays besides

Titus Andronicus, which I'm guessing is because a bunch of drunk yokels in the 1890s in 1905 don't really want to see Titus fucking Andronicus. Yeah, let's get drunk on Moonshine and watch fucking Titus Andronicus. Oh, man. None of us can read, but sure. Sounds foreign. Don't like it. Yeah.

Now, we know vanishingly little about his early life outside of a stage career of what his parents were like. I'm going to guess he got abused at least the normal amount physically, right? Yeah. It'd be weird if he did. Just assuming. We would know about it, yeah. But not enough that, like, he said anything about it or that it was a particular, like,

although, again, he has no dedicated biographers, really. So it may just be that this was also a time when men didn't talk about the shit that happened to them as kids, especially. guys like Frankie Faye. What we do know is that he never spends much time in school. At best, he has maybe a fifth grade education. And I don't even know if it would really be accurate to say he had a fifth grade education. It said that he never made it past the fifth grade. They're traveling constantly. He has odd classes, but he's a very smart kid. And he teaches himself to read and write. Again, he has basically all of Shakespeare's dramas memorized his whole life, right?

So this is a smart kid. And this is a kid probably didn't really need much in the way of formal education. He's an autodidact, right? Right. He also, there's not, I mean, there are theater schools, but he doesn't benefit from that. He is living in and around these actors and performers, and he learns from them and from just his own. He's got instincts. He learns how to perform. So he's basically his whole childhood is theater school, right? Right. As he gets closer to being an adult, his ambition, again, he wants to be a serious actor. He wants to be a stage actor somewhere like Broadway, you know, performing, trotting the boards, but this is not to be. And years later,

he would blame his failure to break through as a serious actor on the fact that he was a redhead. Quote, for that reason, neither the public nor the managers take me seriously when I claim I would be a great dramatic actor. And I think this is actually true. Like, that just like, no, you're a redhead. That's funny. Like, it's funny. You need to be a fucking clown. Like, nobody wants to see a redhead be fucking Mark Antony. Get out of here, kid. Like, accept it, your comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as he grows into a young adult, you know, he kind of splits from the family.

It's unclear a little bit exactly when, but he like, he goes off on his own. He tries to make it. He's not initially successful because, you know, and he flits around different shows, traveling shows, stage shows, just doing the only thing he knows how to do. He does try his luck as a boxer, which is weirdly common for, like, comedians. of this era, a lot of the great first generation of comedians also had box because it's like, yeah, if you're

in the same performing in the same kind of places, it's also where they do bare knuckle boxing, right? You might as well see if you're good at it. Robert, it is crazy to learn that the fucking jujitsu freak stand-up guys also have a historical precedent. A long

and proud history. He was not good at it by his own recollection, quote, I was a pugilist at one time, and what a ham. was so poor that I myself realized I was no good. And when a boxer knows he is no good, he is terrible. Yeah. Which is like, yeah, that's

pretty true. Um, when the guys with head injuries for a living know that they can't, they're not good boxers. Well, it's like, like, whatever ego it takes to put you in the ring is usually a thing that keeps you from leaving. No, no, no, no. I'm just one fight away. Yeah. If you have it. Yeah.

If you have it and you're like, nah. No, I suck. I suck. I'm going to do something else. You know, what else sucks, Andrew. Oh, hit me. Not buying the products and services that support this podcast. In fact, if you're not buying these products and services, like, I don't believe in simulation theory, but you're a simulation of a real person because real people buy from our sponsors. Is this a good idea, Sophie? Does the audience like it when I do this?

I don't really care at this point. Fuck them. I love you. Goodbye. spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. I'm 100% innocent. While behind bars, she learned the law from scratch. Because, oh God, Arnett, jailhouse lawyer. And as she fought for herself, she also became a lifeline

for the women locked up alongside her. It's supposed to have been faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her. So many of these women had lived the same stories. I said, were you a victim of domestic violence? And she was like, yeah. But maybe Kelly could change the ending. I said, how many people have gotten other incarcerated individuals out of here?

I'm going to be the first one to do that. This is the story of Kelly Harnett, a woman who spent 12 years fighting not just for her own freedom, but her girlfriends too. I think I have a mission from God to save souls by getting people out of prison. The girlfriends, jailhouse law. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life.

I've worked hundreds of cold cases you've heard of and thousands you haven't. We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us and learn. Learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members. Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum on the IHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year. It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever. ever done. But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia. The voking at Stonewall was unbelievable.

In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ plus riots. Start banging on the door of the Stonewall like one, boom, boom, boom. Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights, through the very first brick. She was really like scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives, we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marcia P. Johnson. Listen to Afterlives on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For My Heart Podcasts in Rococo Punch, this is the Turning, River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp. for the rest of my life, what that meant. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man

and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor? But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt. For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to The Turning River Road on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back.

So he's a bad boxer, but the experience does seem to have left a mark on him. For the rest of his professional career, even after he makes it big, Frank Faye will carry a set of boxing gloves. with him from theater to theater and, like, put them up in his, you know, office is the wrong word, his like powder room or whatever to remind him of his origins, right? Like, it's like a, it, this is something that, like, leaves an impact on him, maybe just because of the head injuries. I don't know. Yeah, the only impact.

The, yeah. The eternal impact. So he tries next to make, and he's probably in his late teens, maybe young adult, maybe 18, 19 at his point, he tries to make a name for himself as a ballad singer next. And you can find, I'm not going to play you his old time he's singing. but he has a nice singing voice, right? He's known for having a nice singing voice. It sounds weird to us because he sings in a way that people really don't these days,

but he was considered very good. And for a time, he teamed up with another balladeer, but the act ran into a problem, which is that people don't like ballads, and they didn't want to hear his ballots. So he broke up the act, and the next thing he does is he gets together with an older performer named Johnny Dyer.

And Dyer is a vaudeville committee. like Frank's father had been. The way Frank would later tell it, like, he'd been pigeonholed because of his hair color, and this is just him, like, bowing wearily to the inevitable because he needs money. Like, I guess this is the thing I'm destined to do. I can't do better than comedy. This guy, Johnny, wants to take Mandur's wing. I'll try it.

Now, one of my sources for these episodes is the book The Comedians, which is a history of American comedy by Cliff Nesterhoff. And it does a good job of describing what a miserable existence this act, was for Frank at first. Quote, Veteran comic Johnny Dyer goaded Faye and a showbiz while regularly hustling him

in billiards. Dyer wrote an act in which Faye wore baggy pants, roller skates, and a fake nose, circling Dyer as he made wisecracks. The eight-minute performance ended with Faye's pants

tearing in half. It was a kind of humiliation. Faye vowed never to repeat. And again, comedy is very primitive at this point, you know? We haven't really invented the joke in a proper sense

yet, so it is shit like this. That is amazing. Look his pants ripped open. I mean, look, I was argued there's plenty of shit that's not materially better than that that you could find on TikTok today. Again, the aforementioned, well, I'm not going to, who needs to shit on various cartoons on television? You know which ones I'm mentioning. So basically every credible source agrees that Faye hated this act and fucking wants to kill himself the whole time he's doing this, right? He is embarrassed about performing with Dyer for the rest of his.

his life. He wouldn't quite deny he'd ever worked with the guy, but he clearly, like, this is a thing of deep shame for him. And the primary lasting consequence of this period working with Dyer seems to be that Frank Fay develops an almost pathological hatred for comedians who wear outlandish outfits or use props, which is the only kind of comedy at this period of time, right? There are no comedians who just show up in their clothes and, like, tell jokes. They're always wearing costumes. They're always using props. They're nearly always with other comedians.

They're usually doing skits, right? And part of the joke is, look at it. He's a man and woman's clothing, you know? Or he's got mace paint on. He's dressed as a black man, right? Like, those are the jokes, right? Like, it's a whole world of carrot tops and Gallagher's, basically. Except for they don't even have the courage to be carrot-topper Gallagher alone.

They've always got to have other guys on, right? It's just, you know, that's, it's primitive. We haven't invented being funny. I have to say the thing that is bumming me out is I do, I do very much sympathize with the guy in comedy who fucking hates comedy. Of course, of course. I mean, like, look, you can't be a good comedian unless you hate yourself. We all know this. Right?

We all know this. And everyone else a little. And everyone else around you. There's, Bill Burr being the one exception, being the only stand-up comedian to be emotionally healthy. I think just because he's the only stand-up comedian to be happily. married. It happened once. And stay a stand-up comedian, right? Yes. Victoria Wilson, who is his wife, who we'll talk about later's biographer, not his, but who is the closest he has to a real biographer because she's a good biographer and he's a big part of her life. She writes that he had

already developed an obsession by kind of the point that he's working with Dyer near the end of that time with what he considered smart comedy right which is what he wants to be doing and one of his idols is a guy named wilson misner uh misner was a playwright and a general performer who was also a severe opium addict and an adventurer as well as like an entertainer um he had and he's not really he's not performing in front of like normal audiences but he gets invited to the lambs club which is this like social club and restaurant in new york and he's like yeah he writes plays and other stuff and sometimes he'll deliver monologues at the lambs club that are like kind of funny right and this again this isn't a standard performance he's not like selling tickets he's just like coming up because he's a guy who's

known for other things and he'll give some like little monologues and they're kind of funny and fey really likes it right and fay really thinks that he's smart and and really together and there's some other guys doing kind of similar things where it's not quite stand up because the purpose isn't they're there for like an event and they're just kind of like showing up to open this like benefit or whatever they're not really like a normal performance but he sees he gets from this the idea that like this is actually kind of a good idea just a guy coming up and like talking to the audience and being funny right right yeah now these are not weird yeah they're kind of just like little speeches yeah exactly yeah and they're not written they're spontaneous acts of wit right um they're just by guys who happen to be

funny. And Fay admires these men terribly. He said of his idols, and he's talking about Mizner and a couple of other guys, none of whom there's a lot about online. Quote, they never went after anyone, but if you got in their way or tried to outsmart them, Lord help you, you were dead, right? Because they're kind of talking with the audience and stuff. And that's really noteworthy because one of the things about Fay is from an early point in his career, he doesn't just see comedy as a way to earn a living or a thing that's meant to make people laugh. Comedy is always also for him a tool to attack and damage people he doesn't like, right? That's a big part of what draws him to comedy. And the greatest thing he admires about Mizner and some of these other

guys that he's kind of taking on his idols is the way they can cut an enemy down to size and do it with ease, right? The way that they can, you know, tear into somebody and hurt them, right? He really is drawn to that, which gives you an idea of the kind of bastard this guy is going to do. Right? He doesn't care about punching up or down. He just likes to punch. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that kind of guy always likes punching down. Right, right.

God. So for two years, he struggles to get by as, you know, with Dyer as the kind of comedian that he's come to hate, right? Where he's wearing these pants that rip. He's like fucking roller skating around. It's making him one of, he's miserable. He sees his colleagues who are other types of comedians clinging to these props, which he sees as like totems that symbolize a lack of confidence in their own comedian. skills, right? If you need to dress up, if you need another actor on stage, like if you need these, these are crutches, right? So he doesn't immediately start taking the stage. What he starts

doing is backstage in between acts. He starts just talking shit to the people around him about the bad acts on stage, right? And speaking his mind about them. And he's funny. And like his, his like colleagues backstage are like laughing as he's shit talking other performers. And he comes to like, fuck, maybe this could work. Maybe someone, maybe I'm, maybe I'm just funny and I could just get up and be funny in front of an audience, right? So he's taken from these experiences and from these early idols of his, this very simple idea that a comedy performance doesn't have to have pies in the face or any of this physical comedy shit. It could be, you could just have a man, get on stage, wearing normal clothing, and talking about how he feels

to an audience, right? Because even like the court jester had like a dumb hat. He's got a dumb hat. And again, there's still, even court jester's usually had other people or like, you know, they're right, right, there's other shit they're doing, there's props. It seems like an obvious idea that just like a guy would get up, it'd be funny, but this is kind of revolutionary, and it's a big risk, right? People don't even think about this as an idea that you would get up alone without just naked, basically, to try to make an audience entertained is wild to people. In an article for WFMU's Beware of the Blog, Comedy Historian Cliff Nestoroff, summarizes just how

wild the idea of a stage comedian without props was at the time. Quote, even those without gimmicks rarely appeared on stage alone. Comedians had their punchlines set up by another person, a straight man. To be a comedian meant you performed without the help of a costume or an instrument or another guy. A comedian without a prop can't click, said actor Wesley Ruggles. I learned that back in the days when I pushed props around for Charlie Chaplin. Great pantomimist that he is, Chaplin realizes the necessity of props. So again, even like Charlie Chaplin, best in the business, right?

He's fucking Charlie Chaplin. People still know who he is today. Got to be played by Robert Downey Jr. Has to have props and other people. He can't keep an audience on his own, right? And so it's balzy what Faye's about to do. Sure. And around 1915 or 16, we don't know exactly,

he makes his first performances where he is just coming on stage wearing a professional tailored tuxedo, which to us is not normal clothing, but it's pretty normal formal wear for the time, right? For like a nightclub where he's the kind of place he's performing. It's what, like, the people in the audience are wearing, right? So he's dressed more or less the way a man would be dressed. And he shows up on stage.

He's got no straight man. He's got no props. And he's just performing alone. He's talking. And he starts performing under a stage name, the nut monologist, right? Which means, like, he's the crazy monies. He's delivering nutty monologues, right? He's talking about the crazy aspects of modern society.

In other words, it's stand up, right? Now, the term doesn't exist yet. And it doesn't get coined for him. We don't really know exactly why we call it stand-up comedy. There's one plausible theory, the most plausible theory probably, comes from, and this is a guy I think Cliff Nesteroff interviewed, a dude who's very old when Cliff talked to him, who had been a minor comedian. He comes a little bit after Frankie Faye.

So he's a guy like around the 20s he's performing, right, is when this guy starts. And this guy says the term stand-up comedy came from mob lingo, right? Because the first big venues, the nightclubs and the casinos, especially since, like what becomes stand-up as being invented during Prohibition largely, they're all owned by the mob, right? So everyone who is an entertainer is it to some extent working for organized crime, you know, even if they're not involved in other aspects of it. And within the mob, the term stand-up guy means something.

It means you're a man who can be counted on, right? If you're a stand-up guy, we can count on you to, like, keep a secret, to go to prison for us, right, to do whatever, to wax somebody. Like, that's a stand-up guy, right? And a stand-up comedian is a comedian you can trust to deliver their act in the allotted time and to not go over even by a minute, right? Because most of these acts are at casinos. There's gambling. And the act is there because people, you know, it'll keep people there longer.

But if you go over, for every second you go over time, people aren't back at the tables gambling, right? So a stand-up comedian means I can trust this guy to hit his time, right? he's not going to, he's going to do no more and no less than what we want, right? So that's the likeliest term I've heard for a stand-up comedian. Obviously, it could just be because they're usually standing there. They're standing up. But so was every performer. So was every performer.

I think that sounds really credible, right? Well, there's no way to know for sure, but it makes sense to me. If that's the case, I bring this up now, but the term stand-up comedian, I think 1946-47 is really the first time people start using it. So it doesn't, people aren't calling it yet, right? I'm getting ahead of myself because, again, Frank is the only guy doing this at this point. And he's going under the stage name, The Nut Monologist, right? And he's talking, he's lampooning daily life and pop culture in a way that we'd see is very modern.

And he's not really writing bits, right? He's kind of performing a new thing every time he goes up. He's really good on the fly. He's just sort of like living his life and making notes about shit during the day and then coming up on stage and, like, joking about them. And he was, he would tell people that, in his opinion, The only thing you needed to do to make, this is what he says about how to make good comedy. Quote, all anyone has to do is stand in the subway station and watch people, right? He's inventing observational comedy as a discipline.

Again, people have, like, made jokes about daily life forever, as long as there have been people in daily life, right? But he is inventing it as like a discipline, right? Where he's like being, no, all you got to do is go out in the world, watch people, find out what's funny, find a funny way to talk about it and then go talk about it, right? It doesn't have to be some sort of like, you know, big elaborate bit with a pie. Right, right, right. It doesn't have to be a tortured setup that's so... And in fact, it's just people find regular life funny, you know? Right.

Yeah. It's also nice to learn that all, you know, not that I guess this wasn't clear and not that obviously like crowdwork and that business has not always been part of this type of act, but yeah, that's it. Or just speaking extemporaneously. and even if you're not necessarily the funniest, you're funnier than everyone else in the room. Yeah.

That's all it takes. That's it. So, Victoria Wilson writes, quote, on stage, Faye talked about things people did that were recognizable. He would talk about his uncle, the string saver, who was working his way up to rope, or his aunt Agatha, a paper bag putter awayer. Everyone knows string savers and paper bag putters away,

Faye would remark. That's why those people are funny to the rest of us. Talk about those people and everyone laughs. Take the mustache. fixer. You've seen him twist his mustache for half an hour or so at the end of that time, and it looks worse than ever. But because you have seen the mustache fixtures, you laugh when I talk about it. That's all there is to being funny. You know? Oh, my God. Like, he's literally like, yeah, yeah. Like, this is, there's a direct line between that and like, you know,

black people walk like this. White people walk like this. This kind of like, you know, observational comedy, right? You know? Like, that's what we're seeing here. Um, so yeah, cool stuff truly yeah I mean and it does make sense you know what I think I'm realizing I'm picturing is fucking probably like a sketch

from like history of the world part one where it's just like a Roman doing this right yeah someone had to invent this yes someone had to invent it and again you know there's pieces of this for forever but this is he's inventing it as a profession yeah and this is going to

I mean there's not really any debate among comedy historians or the first generation of comedians that comes after him, that Frank Faye is the guy who started this, right? Every major stand-up comedian from what most people know of, like, the first generation of stand-com comedians, credits him. Milton Burrell says that seeing Frank Faye made him immediately put away his props and completely change his performance after seeing Faye for the first time, right? Burrell is like, I became a stand-up comedian because of seeing Frank Faye, right? like he was the guy and you everyone has at least heard of Milton Burl right he's famous for both

being one of the first stand-up comedians writing a bunch of joke books and having a comedically huge dick um as opposed to being one like Frank Fay I don't think I knew that oh yeah hung like fucking god like crazy dick crazy dick hung like Willem Defoe confoundingly large now another one of Frank Faye's biggest fans and like a guy who will say Frank Faye As soon as I saw him, I knew that's what I wanted to be. He completely inspired how I did comedy was Bob Hope, right? If you know anything about comedy, you know what a big deal that is, right? Right.

If you're Ginzi, maybe you haven't heard of this guy. Bob Hope was the most famous comedian on earth for like fucking half a century, right? Right. He lived to be 100, and he spent 80 years as a stage performer. Like, he is crazy big as a comedian. He was also a boxer at one point, although weirdly enough, I didn't know this about Bob Hope. Unlike Frank Faye, he was pretty good. He had a professional record of five wins and one loss.

So kind of surprising, Bob Hope, good boxer. I mean, I guess it's just a certain type of man that is, that loves both these things. Sure. Getting in the ring and proving yourself. Yeah. Now, over the course of his remarkable career, Bob Hope hosted the Oscars 19 times, which is more than anyone else ever did or probably ever will. He also did more than 50 tours for the U.S.

U.S.O, which is the organization that does performances for U.S. military personnel around the world. He starts in World War II and he continues up to Desert Storm. In short, he's one of the most influential and well-known performers in history. He has a massive impact on stand-up comedy and how it becomes a profession. And the fact that he is like, Frank Faye was my model. And not only that, he's like, Frank Faye was the best stand-up comedian I ever knew, you know? Like, that's how Bob Hope described him decades later. He called Faye the most economical comedian he ever watched. He said that he had, quote, complete audience control. So again, Bob Hope, 80 years of experience in this is like, the best I ever saw on stage was Frank Fay.

That is genuinely so wild. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's a big, if you know anything about comedy, that's a really big deal. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not idolized. I don't think Bob Hope was a great person, but like he's undeniably a massive figure in comedy. Yeah. Yeah. Here's how Victoria Wilson describes Hope's recollections of a particularly impactful set by Faye. Quote, Hope saw Faye one time alone on, quote, a darkened stage with the spotlight on him. For the longest time, Faye just stood there. He said absolutely nothing, and he did absolutely nothing.

Then he said, I think I'll go play the piano. He walked slowly across the stage to the other side. As he got there, the spot, which had followed him, showed a piano with a stool and a fellow sitting on it. Frank just looked at it, and then just as slowly, walked back to exactly where he had been standing there's somebody there that was the whole thing said hope but it was one of the funniest acts i ever saw and you have to just like imagine like yeah it's all presence right it's performance it's timing you know it's the way he does it we've all no comedy like that where it's like if

you describe the bit you don't get it you see it and it's amazing right yeah um so there's an extent like there's not there's not videos of his early standard performances obviously you have to trust that like all of the guys who were the funniest people of that milton burl and are all like, yeah, Frank Faye was fucking amazing. So I assume he really was. Like, I have no reason to doubt this. Almost everyone agrees that his greatest strength was that he has this unique understanding of how to use his hands.

And obviously, if you're a performer, what do I do with my hands? It's like the quintessential question. Stage performers have to ask, right? Like, what the fuck do I do with my hands here, right? There's this inherent awkwardness there, which is a big part of why props and costumes had been such crutches for comedic action. You've got to have something to do with your hands, right? Right, right, right, of course.

Right. Like, even fucking, like, Robin Williams and his water bottles, right? You can see it, like, people need something, you know? Frank never did. George Burns, who was another great, famous comedian in his own right, declared to Johnny Carson that, quote, Frank Fay had the best hands in show business. Another colleague later recalled he could give you an inferiority complex,

just watching him light his cigarette, right? Because just, he's just effortlessly funny. And it's, again, this kind of thing, I can't describe it. You just have to trust that these people are not. They have no reason to lie about this, right? He must have been. Now, he's also a dynamic performer, and it doesn't hurt that he's considered handsome.

Travis D., author of the Travolanche blog, and a modern vaudeville performer and historian, describes him as looking like Ralph Fines. You can judge that one for yourself, so if he can pull up a picture of him. Rave. Oh, come on. Fuck it. I like Ralph. I don't know. He's handsome.

him get his name correct. Vines, I'm mixed about him because he's, he's got good stances on Gaza, but he's a transphobe. He's like a real mixed, real mixed bag there. I didn't know that. That hurts. So half, fuck you. I like his performance. It was a great actor.

He was good in that Conclave movie. He's good in everything. He's never been bad in anything. He's an amazing actor. But, ew. Yeah, well, whatever. You know, how many. I take it back, you can call him Ralph.

How many great actors don't have something about him that's like, right? Like, I just rewatch Tropic Thunder with some friends. Tom Cruise. and that he's also Tom Cruise what do you got to do yeah um the final stage to Frank's stage presence is his walk Frank Fay developed a trademark gate described by travesty as quote distinct swishy and almost effeminate right he has a lot of like ladylike gestures particularly the way he walks which are we might say today he's kind of like acting as if he like a stereotypical like the way like gay people were portrayed in like a lot of 80s 90 like that's how we might we might

describe it today they describe it as a feminine then if you've ever seen bob hope walk on stage that weird walk he had when he's got like his golf club on bob hope is doing and admits that his entire walk is based on frank fay so if you've ever seen a bob hope performance that's what he's doing he's doing a frank fay um but i guess that's also theater right because it's it's like it's like hippie because you're like you know you need to be seen and And the movements are, yeah, that's so weird. But that's also, we see it now as like, well, that's a theater thing. No one else is doing this.

He starts this. And everyone copies him, right? Like, this particular, like, kind of affectation is so common and so copied by the people who come after him that they get their own nickname, wristwatch comedians, because he would often, like, do this kind of, like, wristwatch, like, with his hands or looking at his fingers that way, like checking his nails. Milton Burrell explained, he always worked a little effeminate. He had a hauteur about him, but he talked to his audience in a way that made them feel

that what he was talking about could happen to them. He never did jokes in which he was the butt, right? Which is also interesting to me. He does not have a sense of humor about himself, right? Sure. Oh, weird. Weird how that thread has just carried through. Yeah, yeah, right?

That's always the biggest, I would say, like, the biggest fucking, like, red flag of any kind of Comedian is like, can they laugh at themselves? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like I can, you know, theoretically. Obviously, there's nothing funny about me. I'm a very serious, you know, journalist who does only serious journalism.

I don't just write about random assholes on the internet using other people's work. That would be fucked up. Hey-oh. Hey-oh. So, Fay was, this is a huge hit. He starts around like 19, I think maybe 1915 or 16. It's a little unclear to me when he starts doing the nut monologist act. but by 1918 he's a major star right so in a very short period of time he went from no one is doing this to this is the biggest thing in vaudeville right is this specific motherfucker he's got immediately people trying to copy him right but nobody's as good as frank fay now during this period of time when vaudeville still rules entertainment we're talking 1918 the absolute peak of success for a performer in the vaudeville world is getting to play the palace which is a legendary venue in new york

city. I think it still exists. I don't know if it's under the same name, but the palace is like the, that's, that's, that's headlining Saturday Night Live in this era, right? Or Madison Square Garden, which I also think exists, but like the same thing. If you're a comedian today, you can sell at Madison Square Garden. That's the top of stand-up comedy, basically. I don't think there's really anything bigger than doing that right now. The palace is that in this era. Frank gets booked there for the first time in 1919, and he sells out multiple days worth of shows. A huge, a huge, huge act at the time might expect to run for a week

at the palace doing two shows a day this is by the way an exhausting pace right you talk to any modern static meeting doing two shows a day like you're fucking draining yourself so if you can do a week and sell out a week worth of two a days at the palace you're a major success

in 1925 Faye sells out 10 straight weeks in a row eventually his longest spree is going to be 16 straight weeks. No one will ever equal or exceed this, right? Like, this is the best anyone ever does at this. Now, when he's not performing at the palace, he starts in 1919 doing sets. And right, when he's at the palace, he's part of like a larger show, but like he's the centerpiece of it, right? Him doing these like 10 or 15 minutes sets is like, and he's coming on for other stuff too. Like, that's the

reason people are there. And he starts, you know, after he's selling out the palace, doing like a long set for a comedian would be like 10 or 15 minutes. He starts doing these sets that are more than 20 minutes at a time, a half hour, right? We're closing in on what we now consider to be like a normal full, not like a tight five, but like a full kind of like, you know, Netflix special, right? Like, we're not there. We're not in an hour yet, but like at that period of time doing a 20 or 30 minute set is like wild. People just aren't doing that on their own. You're alone on stage for that much time, right? So again, at first he's kind of, he's headlining. He's the big guy, but there's multiple things going on.

But he starts experimenting pretty early on with something new, as Cliff Nesteroff writes. It was at that venue, Frank Fay not only became a bona fide celebrity, but also pioneered the idea of an emcee. For several years, vaudeville used only painted placards with the name of each act to announce who was coming to stage. Fay changed this common practice,

becoming one of the first people to actually emcee a show. His role as an introducer and extraducer was another revolutionary shift in stand-up. He wasn't just introducing, but entertaining as he did show. If the previous act bombed, he warmed the crowd back up. And if the momentum was good, he just kept the show going. Abel Green, editor of the trade paper variety, said,

Faye pioneered the MC and made him important. And people had done this before. He's not the first MC, but he's the first really good one. Because he's like, he's not just, I'm not just there to say, and now coming up, I am there to notice, the audience didn't like that one. Or like, I need to get this guy off early. Or I need to start telling some jokes that were not planned

because that went so badly. Or I can tell this next guy's kind of nervous. I want to, like, build him up a little bit. I need to get the crowd moving so that they'll be happy. Like, no one had really done that before. And he is the guy who kind of, he creates being an MC, really, in the modern sense. Like, he's now invented stand-up comedy, in very short order, stand-up comedy and being an MC. Like, those are the two things.

Frank Faye gets credited for making. Huh. I guess I, I, I mean, it makes sense. I guess I would have assumed there was like, again, I'm realizing all my knowledge of showbiz pre, I don't know, fucking 94, is basically, I guess I would have assumed there was like a ringleader, like in a circus type deal. Yeah, and there'd been ringleaders and circuses.

In the UK, there had been performances that had guys kind of trying to do this. Yeah. But Frank, a big thing is like, previously it had been, maybe the most you do is you'd have a guy come up to introduce everybody. And he'd have, like, a set at the beginning at the end. Again, the fact that he's doing inner stiddle bits and that he's kind of paying attention to, how is the audience doing? What do I need to, like, change? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do I need to bring them back? Do I need to, like, pull this guy back from the brink? And by doing this, he's making himself in a way that even, like, circus ringleaders won't, he's the center of the show. And so he's also created kind of being like a late night host, right? Like, this is, this is the proto Johnny Carson, too, right? Yeah. This is his show and this is his, you know, he's putting it on with. these folks. Right. Even though he's not on stage all the time for every act, he's all,

he's there in between acts, right? And that's, that's, that is like, it's really interesting that he created both of those things, right? Yeah. Um, so at this point, by the mid-20s, Faye is arguably the biggest performer in New York. He's definitely the biggest performer in New York City. And he might, he's probably one of the three or four biggest stars of any kind in the country, right? At least top 10. He's up there. He's massive. Because, first off, movies, not nearly as big a thing as they're going to become very soon. There's starring movies are not nothing, right? Obviously, the 20s is when film is really getting its legs under it. But this is a period of time in which you are a, if you're a big live

performer, you could be bigger than the biggest movie stars. And he's up there with the biggest movie stars, at least, right? And he's touring basically 52 weeks a year, right? He's doing a lot of performing in New York, but he's traveling all around and everywhere he goes, he sells out shows. He is at least equivalent to a guy like Charlie Chaplin, right? Like very much so. You know, we don't remember him now as well. But at this point in time, it would be fair to say he's about at that level. And success goes to his head immediately, right?

This guy becomes famous and successful as a comedian, and he becomes a crooked evil monster right away, obviously, you know? Yeah. I mean, I guess they were always kind of, you know, the capacity for crooked evil monster. Yes. I mean, I guess that's the open question. Is it in us all or is it just in these dickheads that gets expressed? Yeah. Is it just bad?

You know, it's just if your job is to be worshipped by a crowd of people. Yeah. Easy to wind up. Say more, Robert. Kind of narcissistic. Yeah. Like, obviously, I've never made a mistake. Ever.

You're a perfect angel baby. I can't actually be wrong. Everyone knows that. Yes. And you know who else can't be? wrong? Wow. So good at your job. This podcast, sponsored by Little Miss, Little Miss, Can't Be Wrong. That's a song, right? I don't remember which song that is. Anyway, we're done. Is that spin doctors? Is that the spin doctors? Who knows? Who cares? Who's ads?

Kelly Harnet spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. I'm 100% innocent. While behind bars, she learned the law from scratch. Because, oh God, Arnett, jailhouse lawyer. And as she fought for herself, she also became a lifeline for the women locked up alongside her. You're supposed to have been faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her.

So many of these women had lived the same stories. I said, were you a victim of domestic violence? And she was like, yeah. But maybe Kelly could change the ending. I said, How many people have gotten other incarcerated individuals? out of here. I'm going to be the first one to do that.

This is the story of Kelly Harnett, a woman who spent 12 years fighting not just for her own freedom, but her girlfriends too. I think I have a mission from God to save souls by getting people out of prison. The Girlfriends, jailhouse lawyer.

Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life. I've worked hundreds of cold cases you've heard of and thousands you haven't.

We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us in learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members. Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast.

Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year. It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done. But did you know that before it went down in history, the Stonewall was a queer hangout run by the mafia? The Vogue at Stonewallers, Unbelievable.

In the summer of 1969, it became the site that set off the modern movement for LGBTQ plus riots. Start banging on the door of the stone wall like one, boom, boom, boom. Legend says Marsha P. Johnson, a mother in the fight for trans rights,

through the very first brick. She was really like scrubbed out of that history. This week on Afterlives we'll separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marcia P. Johnson. Listen to Afterlives on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For My Heart Podcasts in Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant.

In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to ten girls. and forced them into a secret life of abuse. Why did I think that way? Why did I allow myself to get so sucked in by this man and thinking to the point that if I died for him, that would be the greatest honor. But in 2014, the youngest of the girls escaped and sparked an international manhunt.

For all those years, you know, he was the predator and I was the prey. And then he became the prey. Listen to the Turning River Road on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. I remain having never made a mistake in my entire life. All my pronunciations are right. I've never fucked up a fact or anything like that, obviously. Just like Frank Fay, because this is behind the heroes, a podcast about men who never do bad things. So Frank Faye is hugely successful now, and once he's a star, his first instinct is to use his newfound position of power and influence to mock, deride, and belittle his less powerful colleagues because it's fun to him, and he likes being cruel. One of his peers is Bert Larr, who you probably don't know my name unless you're a real film nerd.

He is at this point a comedic actor. He will become a movie star, and he is best known today because he's the cowardly lion in the Wizard of Oz movie, right? So, like, pretty successful guy, right? You know, like, people still watch that fucker today, you know? And he's pretty popular and well-liked as a live performer at the time. But he's the kind of comedian who wears silly costumes as part of his act. And so Faye fucking hates him.

Both men often performed in the same shows. And when passing Larr and the wings, Faye developed a habit of asking, well, well, well, what's the low comic up to today? And he did this, he would do this right as Larr was going upstage. And his goal was to make him upset and sabotage. his act, right? He loves, he doesn't just, I mentioned how he'll, like, try to set people up for success or, like, bring people back. He also will try to fuck people over if he doesn't like them. Right. He knows how to work performers' confidences. Right. And some of it is, like, he knows that if he makes someone perform badly, then he can come in and save it and look better, right?

Right. He's a big fan of undermining his fellow performers. And one thing he likes about him seeing is that it provides him with subtle opportunities to insult people he doesn't like and destroy their careers when they're trying to get them off the ground. Victoria Wilson explains, quote, he would simply introduce the act by saying with a slight smile and a soft voice, the next gentleman is very, very popular. They say that he's very funny. Then he would raise an eyebrow. The act didn't have a chance with the audience, right?

He's just so good at this that he can just destroy your career with, like, raising an eyebrow, like? I mean, yeah. And he just does this for fun. If he gets bad vibes from somebody, he'll just ruin them as a bit. to laugh at their failure. Faye develops a reputation as a man who likes watching people suffer, and when he destroys someone's career on stage,

he'll do it with a smile on his face. I probably don't need to say this, but he is particularly abusive to his female colleagues. Obviously. A man in stand-up comedy being abusive to women? Wow! He's another pioneer! Louis C.K. has got this guy's photo

and I'll lock it over his heart. One performance he put together during his vaudeville period, which may have been the first, he may have also, like this performance he does, may be the first stooge act ever, involved him telling the audience that he needed volunteers to do a card trick. And then he'd bring up a trio of his performers who were hidden amongst the audience, including volunteers. And one of those performers was a woman who worked for him named Patsy Kelly. So he's having them up, come up to do card tricks to them, right?

And these ringers that he brings up, they're all dressed like shit. They look like they haven't, like, showered. they're in bad clothes. They're meant to look like yokels, right? So that Faye can make fun of them as he's like walking them through these card tricks, right? And he is especially cruel to Kelly. One of the things he would do when she would come to stage, she'd ask her, good heavens, where have you been? And he'd have her respond to the beauty parlor.

So he could say, I can see they didn't wait on you, you know, like just to shit on her appearance after making her dress up badly. Like, he's making her do these lines. He really likes insulting her appearance on stage. Kelly and her two colleagues made up Faye's stock company. They were the pinch hitters that he could bring on for any sketch or bit that he needed someone else for. And she recalls his tutelage as being valuable like she learns a lot from him, while also admitting that he could be cruel, as Wilson recounts. He didn't want her to wear makeup.

He would yell at her on stage. He fired her weekly. Faye never had a script and would just spring lines on me, she said. He might start talking about anything from pairs to presidents. It always seemed to me that I was standing on the stage with my handout waiting for my cue to drop. I lid with my chin because my knees were helpless. So like, you don't know what to expect with him, but he's always just going to be mean and insult your appearance. Like, if you're, like, he just, he really gets off on the cruelty thing. He loves to punch down. Now, I, yeah.

I mean, it is also, I mean, this is basically an improv troupe also. Right, right. Oh, God. So, Fay helps to pioneer being a huge asshole celebrity, too. During one performance, at the Orphium in Brooklyn, shortly after his career gets big. He does like, he's like four minutes late to the show because he's fixing his tie in the green room and he can't get it right. And so the stage manager runs back and is like, the audience is like really pissed off. Like what the fuck, when are you going to get on? You have to hit your mark, right?

And he's like, the audience is getting frustrated and Faye snaps back. Let them wait. And this does not go over well. The booking office cancels the rest of his scheduled performances and finds him $100. But Faye doesn't give a shit. He is in demand everywhere, and he has completely lost his mind as a result of that, and the sheer amount of money flying at him from all sides. At the height of his days doing the palace, he's taking home $18,000 a week in the 20s. Oh, my God.

Like, that's a crazy amount of money. Yeah. That's like 300 grand a week when he's performing at the palace. so he starts to become a narcissist before each if he hadn't been one previously he gets more before each performance it gets to come out freely right like there's nothing holding it back anymore before each performance he would look into the mirror in his dressing room and ask loudly who do I love before answering me is just he's just the he's just the most that guy he could possibly be I mean you guys did it here

Here, Roberts, pre-show warm-up, but, you know. Who do I hate? Me. Oh, buddy. So he quickly drops the name he'd started his act under, the nut monologist, and starts demanding people call him one of several nicknames. And all of these are nicknames he's given himself. Nobody gives themselves cool nicknames.

And his nicknames are, the great Faisy, the king of vaudeville, or just the king, the great Faye and Broadway's favorite son. And he makes people call him that. introduce him that way. There's only one king and his name is LeBron James. You're right, you're right. LeBron James, who sung some of, you know, my favorite rock and roll songs, obviously suspicious minds, just a great musician, LeBron James.

Not as good at dunking as Elvis Presley, but, you know, a fine, fine performer. It's good we're not filming right now. Now, the thing about, like, it's obvious to everyone that he has a massive ease. ego and that these are names he's given himself, but audiences love it because his ego works with the character he's performing. His character is this sarcastic mocking figure who's smarter than everyone and above it all, right? So it does kind of fit with who he's performing as. It's just that the people don't necessarily realize that's also the real Frank. And the real Frank is not just a narcissist and not just a bully, but racist as fuck. Particularly, I assume he was

racist against black people. But we don't really get a lot about, I don't really get much of that in the history. He hates Jewish people. He is the anti-Semites, anti-Semite, right? Milton Burl, obviously, I just said, is a great foundational American comic. He's up there with Bob Hope in terms of guys who influence the development of the vocation. And he is an obsessive fan of Frank Fay, patterns his whole early career in Frank's image. And Frank gets really angry about this, because Milton Burrell is Jewish. Now, the other thing is that Frank is really scared about having his act plagiarized, right? And there's a common fear of the business then and today.

And as a result, because comedians don't want to get plagiarized, it's considered bad form to watch a colleague from the wings before going on yourself, right? People do this all the time, but it's considered bad form by some performers and Fay is one of them. And so one night while performing, Fay catches Burrell watching. And so he calls to a stagehand and tells him, get that little Jew bastard out of the wings. So this happens a couple of times.

You know, they're on at the same shows, and Faye gets angrier and angrier at Burl. And eventually, Faye shouts directly at Burl using the K-slur for Jewish people. Like, like really goes to, like, very racist to Milton Burl, right? Basically, stop stealing for me, you slur. Yeah. Now, Burl, again, admires Faye truce. tremendously. He's patterned his career off of this man, but he's not going to take this

racism lying down. Milton Burl later related, after he calls Faye calls him Sler, I waited until he had finished for the night. I was ready for him as he cut around behind some flats on his way to the dressing room. I had picked up a stage brace. They're made of wooden metal and they're used to hold the scenery together. And as he went by me, I reached out and spun him around. Before he knew it was happening, I hit him right across his face with the brace. It ripped his nose apart. He has to go to the hospital. Milton Burrow hit him. It's him with a board with metal on it in the face. Also, I mean, listen, it's, it's like kind of amazing to be like, I'm doing this because I'm, on some level, still such a big fan.

Yeah. I'm a huge fan, but I am going to beat you in the face with a board. Yeah. This is like divorcing the artist from the art harder than anyone's ever done. And honestly, it makes me like Milton Burrell a lot more. I didn't have an opinion on him before this. But that's pretty cool. Now, Faye is not just a bigot.

He is the kind of bigot who feels no compunction against dropping slurs in public. He loves dropping slurs in public at social events. I do feel like it's probably worth being like it's also like what, like when would this be? Like the 20s, the 30s? Yeah, we're in like the mid-20s. So he's not like super unique. No, no, no, no, no. If anything, even the stuff that you've quoted, probably soft, all things considered.

I say that. Let's wait. Let's hold on calling it's soft for the period, right? Sure, sure, sure. Comedian Milt Josephberg, who you might guess is a Jewish man, one of Frank's contemporaries, later claimed, quote, they referred to other comedians as Jew bastards. And this regularly, like, so this is like a common thing to him. He says this socially at like parties and stuff.

Yeah. This regularly leads to fist fights. In fact, one of the things Faye is most known for is getting into fights all the time with Jewish performers because he calls them slurs, right? Now, let's be fair to Faye, he gets into fist fights with a lot of people. It's not just Jewish performers. He loves punching people. And you know what? To be even more fair, we already know even he knows he's not a good boxer.

Even he knows he's not a good boxer. Now, Fay is also a chain smoker. He lights up regularly throughout his act. He's like a proto Dennis Leary in that. Or, you know, Dennis Leary was stealing from fucking Bill Hicks. Yeah. But he's one of these guys, right? So once he gets rich and famous, he buys a gold cigarette case, which he would bring

on stage so everyone could see it when he lights up. And during one performance, when he's backstage, there's a no smoking sign because of a fire codes because, like, it's a dangerous building to have anything light in and they don't want to kill everyone in the venue because it's the fucking 20s and it's such a threat that the venue had hired a firefighter to make sure people follow the rules and the firefighter sees Frank light up and the firefighter's like hey man and calls him the Fsler right you know just because it's the 20s and Frank punches him in the face like this firefighter um but my favorite punch related Frank face story happens on stage during a performance and this is such a good story to end this episode

on. One of Frank's very few friends was Bert Wheeler, and Wheeler was one half of a popular comedic duo called Wheeler and Woolsey. Now, Bert admired Faye and described him as having the fastest mind in the business, but he also knew that his friend had a cruel side, and that whenever Faye brought a performer on stage with him, it was to mock them. And so, Wheeler doesn't want to be on stage with his friend necessarily, because he knows he's going to get insulted really badly so one night wheeler gets the feeling that fay is going to bring him on stage to like do this and is like he begs his friend he's like hey man don't bring me up after i finish my act i just i really don't need this today right like i just i don't want to be laughed at in the way

that i'm going to be laughed at if you bring me on stage victoria wilson describes what happens next fay honored wheeler's plea until one important performance a matinee when the talent bookers were in the audience with stopwatches in hand to time the laughs wheeler finished his act to great applause and left the stage. Faye came on as he had throughout the show and called Wheeler back on stage. For whatever reason, Faye began to talk to the audience at Wheeler's expense. Faye was calm, controlled. He spoke in his soft, easy, slow delivery with his deadpan stare. Wheeler stood on the stage, unable to think of anything he could say to equal or top phase sarcasm. Finally, Wheeler said, Frank, you're a very funny man, but I predict I'm going to get the biggest laugh ever

heard at the palace. Faye said, oh really, Bert? How are you going to do that? Wheeler pulled back and hit Faye in the face. The audience laughed, thinking this was part of the act. That's a pretty good joke. Listen, especially given who the stand-ups are these days, I would love to see more of this.

There's a lot of stand-up comedians. I want to get hit in the face on stage, right? Yeah. So I think at this point, we've established that this guy's both innovative and groundbreaking and also an abusive dick and a racist. But Frank Faye is about to be so much more. In part two, we're going to talk about his marriage to his wife, a woman you may know,

Barbara Stanwick. And these two are going to embark on a relationship so abusive and poisonous that it would become a piece of Hollywood history. This is like the archetypal toxic abusive Hollywood relationship. Frank Faye and Barbara Stanwick. The movie A Star is Born is based off of their abusive relationship. Right. So that's got to be cool. Can't wait. Can't wait. Can't wait. Can't wait. Can't wait. What a table set. How you feeling?

Andrew T. I feel I am, as it happens on behind the bastards, I am fighting myself, at least in part one, more sympathetic in general than I thought I was going to be. Right. And typically that is, I guess, how biographies work. No one starts out as an evil child, so I get it. Well, and it's like he's a racist and he's abusive so far, but he hasn't done, this is not behind the bastards level stuff quite yet right like this is like this honestly feels this is just

kind of an asshole right like i wouldn't just do an episode on a guy who's a dick he doesn't even seem that transgressive yeah for like the fucking 20 he's not this is yeah he wouldn't be canceled today yeah right like right like today he would be a popular right wing comedian who we would be annoyed by but i would not do an episode on um yes we're getting to the stuff that's like behind the bastards worthy right I can't wait. But before we get to that, why don't we get to your plugables? Oh, I don't know.

Still doing yo is this racist. We have a premium show called Yo Can We Live. I don't know. That's it. I'm around. Hey, yo. Andrew T. on places. Hey, yo.

All right, everybody. This has been Behind the Bastards. I've been Robert Evans. Come back in part two where we are going to hear some real fucked up shit about a guy who sucked. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com. Or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

Subscribe to our channel, YouTube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time. I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law. He goes, oh God, Arnett, jailhouse lawyer.

And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her. You're supposed to have been faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her. I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison. The Girlfriends, Jail House Lawyer. Listen on the IHeart Radio app,

podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life. Now, this ain't just any old podcast, honey. We're going to be talking to family members of victims, detectives, prosecutors, and some nationally recognized experts that I have called on over the years to help me work these difficult cases.

I've worked hundreds of cold cases. as you've heard of, and thousands you haven't. We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us in learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members. Come be a part of my Zone 7 while building yours.

Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum on the IHeart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant. For my heart podcasts and Rococo Punch, this is The Turning, River Road. In the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped.

Listen to The Turning River Road, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Maybe you've heard that Stonewall was a riot where queer people fought back against police or that it's the reason pride is celebrated this time of year. It was one of the most liberating things that I have ever done. Legend says Marsha P. Johnson threw the very first brick. Start banging on the door of the Stonewall like one, boom. This week on Afterlives will separate the truth from the myth in the life of Marsha P. Johnson.

Listen to Afterlives on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.