Behind the Bastards - Part One: Josef Mengele & The Nazi Doctors

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Robert is joined by Matt Lieb to begin our series on Nazi Doctor, Josef Mengele. (4 Part Series)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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all right it's coming in hot yeah yeah what's joseph my note take two take two everybody this is behind the bastards a podcast about the worst people in all of history and let's just rip off that band aid we're talking about joseph mangola for the next four episodes yeah the uh the the working title of the doc is just joseph mangola jesus christ so stoked stoked to be here yeah how you doing matt i'm doing good you know i've been i've been i've been stoked to come back on the show um and i've i've had this bit you know ready to go for a while oh yeah before i knew we're gonna talk about joseph mangola i i switched the soundboard and um it's all it's all jar jar binks great and uh i now i'm realizing the jar jar soundboard is

not gonna work for this particular episode well you know a lot of people will say uh this is actually an argument historians will make all the time that uh oh no i love it personally a lot of historians will argue that mangola was the jar jar binks of the nazi regime in that in that he was an embarrassing and kind of sad character who nonetheless had an almost forest gump-like availability around many of the most significant moments in the history of the third rike yeah he was just around inventing his smiley face t-shirts and seeing what what what will happen if twins put together he also uh he was also briefly friends with quigan jinn but that's a separate separate matter separate matter separate matter very very bad so this

i'm probably not gonna do much jar jar this episode just based on subject matter alone oh boy yeah but for the record i'm enjoying yeah look there's a lot we can say about the wisdom of that particular decision but what i respect is that you made a choice matt yeah a lot of people in this life you know never have the courage to choose and you did so thank you yeah unfortunately i'm someone who i like to commit to a bit um you know subject matter be damned i'm like you know even if people don't so much enjoy jar jar coming in at in out of an episode with a evil nazi doctor it's like hey at least he's committed right yeah exactly me not not mangola yeah well he he was committed to uh you got to give that to the man so we have uh you know we have we have to start

like yeah we do what do we just pull the ripcord and go like let's talk about i don't know fucking something fun cats yeah so no we're not gonna do that we're gonna tell although joseph mangle it did cats or cats as in uh james cordon in a bad costume that's a bastard we should talk about that is a bastard we should talk about joseph mangle also liked cats so there you go um yeah he had a few so here's the thing you know we do a history podcast here where we talk about the worst people ever um and we have a lot of different subjects and because you know we've been doing this for so long we'll we'll alternate between oh this week we're talking about a dictator this week we're just talking about a fascist who was pretty good at chess or we're making fun of Ben Shapiro's

book and whenever we do those kind of like less intense episodes we get uh a message for we get messages from people being like how dare you cover this guy who's not as bad when you haven't done this other worst guy yet oh wow and it used to be it used to be the person that we would get most often for that was um was kissinger right people will be like how how dare you talk about i don't know so-and-so when you haven't talked you know Jordan Peterson when you haven't done kissinger it's like well Jordan Peterson was a little more fun than kissinger right um since we've done the kissinger episodes now it's joseph mangle and all i have to say to the people who have been messaging me about him is be careful what you wish for shit birds because he be fucking is so use of shit birds

by the way oh one of my favorite words that was synergistic to you know can i do my plug up top just in case people like mango absolutely this is the time to do the plug man okay uh so it's i have a wire and sopranos rewatch podcast it's called pod yourself a gun that's that's what you look for uh on the itunes store you guys have lots of reviews like so many reviews i feel like people listen to your podcast so i'm gonna say hey sure you don't even have to listen to pod yourself a gun just give us uh five stars in review and you know and a george or a quote and i'll be happy dog yeah review bomb them uh positively please yeah five stars there's other wire podcasts sabotage them cut their break lines you know go out there and do good um matt what first off i want to ask

what do you know about joseph mangle like if a caveman got thought out of ice and wanted you to explain the holocaust to him how would you explain who joseph mangle was um all of my knowledge of joseph mangle comes from uh the slayer song angel of death um which doesn't tell you much um um but uh it's that and i i saw an info like one of those like infographic you know like kurtzkezeit it's like a youtube channel that has like uh what if you know an asteroid hit the earth and it's like a scientific oh yeah yeah yeah so some weird off like off brand channel tried to do the same thing with mangle and no and it's terrible like because the person who's like narrating it is still trying to do like a happy engaging voice and you can't really do that

yeah um when you're talking about uh sewing twins together so um i know that he did that uh i know that he was uh i i i know how it ends i know um uh that he's i know he's bad and i know he was evil doctor uh also the video ends with uh would sound off in the comments if uh uh you agree with dr mangle as experiments and i was like that's not wait what's for serious that's how it ends yeah that's how it ends and i was like oh that's a mistake that is a weird weird shit that's never that's unhinged no that's unhinged um it's interesting that you bring up because you you've brought up a couple of times the sewing twins together stuff there's a lot of stories about mangle and first off your basic contention he was an evil doctor absolutely accurate um obviously

this is behind the bastards we're covering him a lot of the stories about stuff mangle did at Auschwitz are not entirely accurate in that they are things that happened but they're not necessarily things that mangle did and we're going to talk about that the actual the the story of mangle that has kind of emerged is more robust historiography has come out is a lot worse i think than the the stories that were coming out in the 70s the boys from brazil era sort of like like a depiction of him i think it's worse than you know but it's also different um in some in some important way so i i do want to let people know up top this is going to be maybe not the series you're expecting we're going to spend all this week actually talking about as much as we talk about mangle

as early life we're going to be talking about the birth of the nazi racial science medical community because you cannot extricate mangle's acts from that larger medical apparatus right um so without further ado joseph rudolf the red-nosed mangle why did i do that was born on march 16th 1911 in a little i mean i i like that you were just like hey you know what why not remember christmas yeah he's a march baby he's not that far off and you were like he got what's amisa saying okay i'm sorry go ahead good god i can the adl is preparing to fire bomb us both out of our house i have just up top i am jewish and uh i also uh get constantly brigaded by nazis online so yeah and up top i did not ask you to put in the jar jar big sound box no he did not i was a peer peer you i did make the

root off the red nose i don't know why anyway he was born in a little town called gunzburg on march 16th 1911 in southern germany uh his father carl mangola was an engineer who designed farming equipment and owned a small manufacturing firm that produced it if you are particularly in europe and in latin america if you're like hang out on farms you will see equipment often that says mangola on it um still yeah yeah no there's still a thing um early they were in the brand a little pretty recently it definitely had an impact on the brand i mean i'm not gonna say you have to respect them for continuing the name it's like if hitler had a cousin who made calculators and in like 1946 he was like look man i was like fuck that guy but i'm not changing the name yeah it's the ti 88 um

so carl started his small manufacturing firm repairing farm equipment uh he had a little business partner for a while they had a foundry where they would produce you know tool pieces but the foundry burnt down and it might have been a little bit sketchy i don't know this happens to carl like two or three times like his factory will burn down and he'll get a bunch of insurance money and make a better factory um but also this is night like the early 1900s so i'm not surprised that a bunch of german foundries are burning down it's yeah it should burn down a lot back in those days yeah yeah they didn't have fire extinguishers they didn't believe in wind you know it was a different time um so at the time that joseph was born carl employed seven workers and was probably

what you'd call upper middle class starting to verge on wealthy joseph's mother was the formidably named walberga mangola and with a name like that you know you're talking about a tough customer well well berga yeah on plow for sure yeah oh for sure now she was three years older than her husband um and from a well-off family in goonsburg and as a result of being rich and very very angry she had kind of no fucks to give decades later joseph would describe his father as good-natured and soft-hearted but his mother as determined and forceful and you know periodically she would have to come in and like work the factory when her husband wasn't there or whatever and like biographers will note like all of his employees were fucking terrified of her um

i don't think this has any bearing on the man mangola becomes but it's fun context so carl and walberga's firstborn baby had died a couple of days after being born and so when joseph came out i think a year or so later and was healthy he was celebrated by his whole family in writings years later joseph would describe his early childhood as a secure full home surrounded by extended family and hired help who all nourished and obsessed over him during the first three years of his life he was joined by two younger brothers carl and alois uh just you know whenever you i come on the show and you talk about like nazis i'm always waiting for like more of the like at-home like trauma like you know early

childhood trauma to like explain stuff and i think consistently that's almost never been the case and uh that just that bums me out more than yeah it's interesting we just did koko chanel who came from like a nightmare background maybe like the most difficult childhood of any person we've ever talked about on this show um and we were talking during that about like how often is it with these monsters that they have like some horrible horrible childhood versus you know not and honestly i think the worst of them tend to grow up and reasonably secure homes um you know hitler hitler's dad was kind of a dick although i don't think exceptionally for the age they were very poor though his mom was sick but she loved him like he grew up with like love and a family who

cared about him um that's just not a not that doesn't seem to have much of a protective effect from being one of history's greatest monsters a lot of loving homes produce war criminals i'm just trying to figure out how to raise my daughter yeah you know whatever i need to do to make her not do race science i'll do it and if it means being more strict i guess i'll have to do it i don't know dog no i mean the answer is i i think nobody knows nobody knows how to not make war criminals which is why we have so many of them yeah i'm excited um i don't maybe like if she ever considers doing a war criminal like get one of those like little little spray bottles and like right in the nose like like a cat like no yeah exactly don't do that no no ethnic cleansing spray her as she's

trying to measure a skull no no no so joseph's family was conservative and catholic so that may be a bit of a red flag though um norman stone who's an oxford professor who analyzed joseph's memoirs on his own life later has claimed that quote respect rather than affection seems to have ruled the household um and jerald posner who wrote an early positive and detailed biography of mangla seems to embrace this view of mangla's early life that like the family was secure but not warm he wrote the relationship between his parents did not improve the emotional austerity of the mangla home they were known as a quarrelsome pair joseph wrote bitterly of his father as a cold figure and of his mother as not much better at loving although he came to admire

her energy and decisive nature for the early parts of his life a nanny called monica fulfilled the dominant maternal role coaxing it at times intimidating joseph into holding fast the catholic faith for his parental legacy at last mangla was grateful in his autobiography he wrote one could feel flattered that the family tradition going back generations was continued with the name of the father of christ joseph and this is you know it's it's weird because that seems to be like him saying well it was kind of a cold relationship it wasn't very loving some of mangla's own writings contradicts that and david marwell who wrote a better biography of mangla i think than posner tempers this attitude because he really does emphasize he has a big family he seems to be

very much wanted as a kid um he has a lot of resources poured into him obviously no childhood is perfect the fact that he's deeply cared for and that his parents could be distant and stern can both coexist you know they're fucking german yeah they're they're german right like this sounds like default german parents yeah yeah take out your trash you know and it's like that's how you say i love you in a way yeah yeah screaming at them i remember i talked i brought that bring this guy up one of the nazis that i've one of the old school nazis former nazis that i talked to you know earlier in my life was a guy who'd been in the hitler youth as a kid war ended when he was 14 and he would talk about like his family life and one of the stories he

would tell us that like and he's he framed this is a pretty common kind of thing is you know the father in prussian culture in particular was like the dictator of the family this was actually a big aspect of kind of the way the nazis talked about how the state should work the father is the dictator of the family and the father follows the furor in a way that's very much like that right right this is the fatherland i get it yeah and so he was like well a couple of times a week when we would have an egg because eggs were hard to come by we would all sit around the table and watch as my father ate the entire egg and that that was like a thing we did as a family it's fucking okay children get together you're going to watch me eat the hard-boiled egg alone

tell me more salt or less salt imagine this egg is the frontier of poland and we must crack it from the west jesus i love i love like dogging your family like that just like watch me eat the egg you gotta watch me eat this egg you gotta learn respect you know one day you'll be the father eating the egg it's not sharing eggs with your family incredible stuff you want some of this egg are you kidding in bijan's america we are we are coming back around to the age of eggs and short supply so the same year that joseph was born carl bought his first bin's automobile he was well respected as a boss due to the fact that he was willing to get his hands dirty he put in long hours he seems

to have been like a reasonably like easygoing guy so i think his workers generally liked him um in 1914 when carl was or when joseph was just three a disastrous sandwich run ended with a hapsburg and shortly dying and shortly thereafter a war that destroyed much of western europe carl's workforce had ballooned to about 30 men by this point but the war takes carl away from his child in business and he spends the next two years serving at the front joseph's mother had to take over for her husband um but that actually did not go badly for the family the world war one is terrible for everyone else in germany but the mangle is the mangle is kind to do great because under her leadership their firm gets awarded a bunch of government contracts

they're making military vehicles and carts and shit for the army carl returns after two years at the front because the the firm has gotten so much bigger that like the government's like we need you running your company rather than fighting um over the course of the war years the mangle a family business triples in size and becomes one of the largest employers in the city of goonsburg so everyone else spends world war one starving and uh uh desperate but the mangle is get rich yeah so that's that's good he ate no he was having he was having three four eggs a week sometimes matt making making all the goons of goonsburg watch him yeah when the fighting stopped carl led a seamless pivot for his company back to the production of farming equipment and by the

early 1920s it was the third largest threshing company in germany um and if you know germans they loved to thresh they're a big thresh culture threshing they thresh thistles they're thistle threshers they love thistle thresholds absolutely so mangle was now goonsburg's largest employer and joseph's family was the first family in a growing city of course the 20s were good for more than just threshing they also yielded a bumper crop of fascists carl was not quite a fascist early on but he was a wealthy conservative um and so he was not very far from the fascist side there's fascist maybe yeah he was fasc curious you know yeah and i'm gonna quote now from marwell's unmasking the angel of death mangle's father was at least at some point a member of the german

national peoples party he was not been a supporter of the nazi party as suggested by some whose site his having made one of his factory buildings available to hitler for a campaign event in october 32 in fact carl first joined the nazi party in may of 1933 only after it gained power in connection with his own bid for a seat on the city council which had eluded his prior attempts in 1924 and 1929 according to historian uh zednek zofka carl mangle's political aspirations were less ideological than grounded in his desire to influence the local business climate and the local goonsburg nazi party officials accused him of purchasing his seat through a generous contribution so he is he is not an ideological nazi he's like i want to have hitler speak at

my factory because it will help me like get a tax break later on like i can i can work my way into the city council no yeah i it is kind of insane to me to like go nazi just to be like the president of the chamber of commerce you know i mean i mean that's that's like 20 percent of the nazi party yeah like it's a and it's the 20 percent who had all the money yeah yeah i don't know you could we could say something about the way various business associations and special economic districts are kind of like uh reservoirs for fascism in the modern american context these are the people pushing to put a lot of homeless folks in camps and stuff um and how a lot of carl mangle's are still out there um so that's good stuff anyway it's good to know yeah the nazis the nazis get

electoral power in vaimar thanks in large part to the fact that people like carl are there to help fund them um and also people like carl these upright businessmen who are not like wild-eyed nazi mystics right they're not shouting all the crazy shit so normal conservatives are like well carls now with the nazi so i guess maybe they're okay you know yeah um look at all the eggs he eats yeah so you know he's this guy's got money he's eating all the eggs maybe there's something maybe this maybe this hitler guy is gonna take us some good places um so for his part joseph's affluence allowed him to avoid all of the traumas of the era he was raised in you know the vaimar years are a tumultuous period for most germans he is not ever starving uh his family is not ever

dealing with like inflation hits them too but it's not causing them to be unable to pay for things that they need right um yeah like eggs and so he has a happy childhood his family tends to recall him as a sunny and fun loving child um he liked to ride horses his favorite way to help out the family business was to pull company transports away from the railroad on his draft horse um very early he's he's doing railroad shit which is is unfortunate yeah he was just like you know i don't know what it is about trains but i just uh i just feel drawn to them um yeah so matt this is gonna be a bleak story but i have some good news for you i have some really good news for you what is it this is gonna make everything a lot easier for us because is it ether no it's it's a nickname

joseph mangola has a nickname oh yes and his nickname is beppo which is italian for Giuseppe or joseph and also is why the buca di beppo chain of italian restaurants which is part of a proud fascist culinary tradition is named that they're named in his honor you can look it up buca di beppo yeah yeah i love a mangola well buca di beppo literally means beppo's hole which is referring to joseph mangola's throat because he loved pasta so much look it up look it up yeah i believe it i believe it yeah he was a throat goat you know proto throat goat buca di beppo when you're here you're a nazi a lot of people don't know this every thousand dollars you spend at buca di beppo restaurants buys a sea mine to blow up a transport taking migrants

from the north coast of africa to italy i think that's the buca di beppo guarantee yeah so did we did we succeed in getting that big uh big beppo sponsorship yet for some reason i haven't heard back well maybe olive garden will take us on yeah i mean we gotta keep trying for buca di beppo i mean they have such big plates of pasta you know massive plates of pasta yeah but do it in front of the jewel so beppo was a gifted student he was never quite top of his class which is also a thing you see with a lot of these like nazi functionaries were like they do okay in school but they're never quite the best that's one of the things naziism offers people who feel like they should have

yeah i feel i did okay but i feel like i should have done better based on the fact that i'm white ah the nazis will make me feel special yeah exactly yeah are you these students do people think you're i don't know seconds tier joins the nazis and we'll convince you that no you deserve to be in the first year mm-hmm yeah well uh we'll give you a chance to conduct the invasion of russia um and yeah good luck that you deserve to get better grades so he was a he likes music uh one of the things he does when he's a little kid is he writes a fairy tale to put on for the benefit of a local orphanage um yeah he's gonna have a lot of stories that involve orphanages over the next few years yeah yeah some less nice than others mostly yeah a couple so he was as

community oriented as was pretty normal for a german kid from his class in those days he joins the red cross as a volunteer he's in the gross deutsche jugenbund which is a a boy scouts analog that was pretty fascist um he eventually becomes the leader of his town's jugenbund uh chapter which consisted of 60 boys and 30 girls so hey you know they're at least uh mixed gender that's good yeah look at that yeah you know good for you jugenbund yeah maybe they'll be all right yeah end of pot so joseph would later reminisce over one of the solstice celebrations that he organized for the jugenbund and oh boy matt quote we were proud of our big solstice fire which blazed into the heavens on a ridge opposite the hometown announcing that a small group of boys

and girls today celebrated the solstice with fervent thoughts and desires in their hearts to awaken and arouse the people of their homeland to the holy struggle of liberation from the shackles of the nefarious versi treaty the fame should the flame should liberate us and illuminate our way they should warm us with the love of our great people and of its high culture and they should incinerate all discord among us germans now look i brought punch why is he speaking like this we were going to make s'mores but now things have gotten dark i saw this was a bonfire why is this guy talking about a destruction like this um so yeah i should note that the jugenbund did not accept jews because as joseph would explain later in his diary he quote characteristic

qualities of the german people could not be expressed if there was alien incrustation allowed to flourish yeah they can't say the k word that's that's literally just like oh she's a jews poem all of a sudden we can't tell our killer jokes yeah now you could look at this and say like ah obviously he was going to grow into a nazi but historians will note that like this is pretty normal german anti-semitism like this this is pretty normal for the people who don't become nazis like the fact that this is a part of his his upbringing obviously it influences the nazi he becomes but we shouldn't pretend like he was being directed into fascism it was more that like this was like all over the fucking place people were racist as hell right yeah you can't like just

look at yeah it was just part of the norm it was the norm everyone was there's there's communists who have this childhood right in this period people who grow up to be communists who have experiences like this it's not uncommon um obviously those people often did a much better job of getting past it but like he has a pretty normal upbringing racism wise um i found a jews the normal amount the normal that's actually it's only answering people just hate jews the normal amount yeah you know yeah it's fine i can live with the normal amount well yeah maybe put a pin in that one man yeah maybe not to live so given that this was the very early 1900s joseph's young life also had its requisite brushes with death when he was six beppo fell into a rain

barrel and very nearly drowned um comrade comrade anti-fascist rain barrel tried it tried oh so how do you fall into a rain barrel beppo just a flag with a rain barrel that says i tried oh i love these fancy fascist rain barrels it did its best it did more than us you know it did more to try to stop mangola um and it it's going to this rain barrel incident's gonna linger with him for a while because he gets a case of rain barrel beppo new nickname so he winds up sick after this and kind of like a long series of illnesses leads him to getting osteomyelitis which is a bone marrow inflammation um yeah and so he's going to be in after this rain barrel incident and like some incidents that come after it he's going to be like a really sick kid

all told though he's he's on what you might call the precocious gifted kid track in school he earns really good grades in primary school kind of average grade in his secondary school because he's absent so often because of he he's sick he gets kidney infections all this kind of shit because of the barrel in any way all of the health problems leads to his family sitting down and being like well we wanted him to run the company but he he's kind of like always dying yeah maybe maybe we give his little brother the company and he can just figure his own shit out if he ever stops dying um that's the decision his very german family makes yeah um and so Alois is groomed to lead the family firm and joseph as he nears graduation

is forced to find something new to do with his life and he doesn't write about this in detail he seems to have been kind of ashamed of this i think this really fucked him up and to be honest fucked a lot of us up because we we would all prefer joseph mengola farming machine manufacturer seriously dude one of the greatest mistakes ever is not just giving him control of the company yeah let him invented some nice combination he didn't make tractors or shit you know yeah yeah would have been fine it stretches and it plants at the same time the only combination machine you need um speaking of combination machines you know mengola machine works makes an incredible range of uh of domestic plows of threshing machines of mowers um you know why

don't we uh why don't we have our sponsors at mengola just kind of cut in here and uh and throw an ad they got a promo code for you um so if you want 20 off of mengola products just enter promo code not that mengola wow some people can't stand the rain but at vessie we can't get enough of it that's why we make 100 percent waterproof shoes that look and feel anything but imagine your favorite sneaker styles supercharged with waterproof tech so whenever someone else is staying in you're getting out for a walk with your pup and jumping in puddles like a kid again because with waterproof shoes there's nothing stopping you head to vessie.com that's v e ssi.com and see for yourself vessie come

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dater lover or partner obviously like nia's gonna learn something i didn't expect this welcome to exit interview listen to exit interview on the i heart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts ah we're back so good stuff uh so as he's kind of nearing graduation and trying to figure out what he's gonna do with his life now that the thing he'd prepared for as a child was not a possibility for him anymore joseph thought back often to his favorite high school teacher uri a gifted educator who to the detriment of all mankind succeeded in sparking in joseph a lifelong love of the sciences um again never teach children it's a horrible idea so this is this is why i'm against women in stem because i don't want them to become mangalas it's that simple is that

it excellent um and men in stem and men in stem no one in science no this is why we need to put more lead in the gasoline yeah make it impossible for people to do science and we'll solve all of our problems yeah exactly yeah you know we'll just have plagues every now and then but a plagues nobody's fault you know yeah that's god yeah that's god let's see the numbers out he's probably angry at us because we didn't pray enough for rain or something you know who knows maybe we gotta oh no yep now we're sacrificing people again it all comes back to child sacrifice one way or the other so uri teaches him to love science which would prove to be a horrible mistake and as he ends the near the near the end of his primary school days which the germans called gymnasium um joseph's

favorite subjects are all hard science he especially loved zoology and biology but his favorite course of study was the budding new discipline of anthropology oh boy oh boy yeah i'm gonna quote now from david marwell's mengala in april 1930 he passed his abitur the high school exams with a promising but an exceptional grade his father had counseled him that what counted was what one achieved not what one set out to achieve initially joseph considered becoming a dentist since he was convinced it would be very profitable there was not even one dentist in my native town but after discussions with his school friend julius diceback a young mengala decided dentistry was too specialized he opted instead for medicine with an emphasis on anthropology and human genetics so i could study

the whole range of medicine thus joseph yeah yeah that's good that yeah don't go specific you don't want to be a specialist you want to get real broad in fact you want to get so broad that you're just taking wild guesses based on yeah you want to convince yourself that you have a much deeper understanding than you do because you you you you skimmed a couple of textbooks about like history and race and ear shape that's gonna be good for you so part of why he's drawn to this so much is that no one in his family had done anything like this there weren't any phd's in his family there weren't any scientists in his family he brags to his friend diceback my family will be very impressed when i become the very first mengala scientist yes people will remember

the name dr mengala he's not wrong there is a bunch of shit he writes when he's young about how i want people to remember my name and mission accomplished yeah you did it buddy um so this is where we're going to have to have the first of a couple of detours because you can't tell the story of joey menges properly without telling the story of anthropological sciences in the late 1800s and early 1900s and how they became wedded to nationalist politics in the post-war german state the origins of race sciences mengala came to knew it actually start back in like the 1700s one of the earliest developments in what would become mengala's field happened in 1727 when the earl of boulain-villiers attempted to make a scientific argument that the french nobility

were descended from a superior race of long-headed nordics the french peasantry he argued were just descended from the galls that caesar had beaten and thus the rule of the french royal family was enshrined in a mutable biological law do wait hold on are you trying to tell me that science was just used in order to justify royal nobility and king's rules yeah yeah it's kind of like the root of a lot of genetic science in addition to the stuff that was like i want to see if we can crossbreed peas which is you know groundbreaking work was also like oh maybe this will allow us to find another reason why we should never never not be in charge uh well you gotta take it good with the bad yeah yeah that's that's really the history of genetics in a nutshell yeah you gotta take it

good with the bad i mean you know you gotta assure genocides here and there but also seedless watermelon also seedless watermelons exactly look you get some seedless watermelons you get you know you know hundreds of thousands of people being burnt into a crisp in Auschwitz who's to say you know who's to say and if you you know if you think and dwell on that and you feel bad smoke some sensimilia dude yeah exactly weed bro seedless weed also bred using the great science of galton or lene yeah whatever i think it was galton who did that shit so his argument the earl of boulain villier or whatever did not spread that far beyond france but the work of early naturalists would provide a shot in the arm for future rich assholes looking to make similar arguments to

justify subjugation one of the first scientists in this field who's not a bastard was the father of modern taxonomy and binomial nomenclature carolus leneus who you probably heard about in middle school or high school carolus obviously not a nazi uh he saw you know and in fact there's some really progressive attitudes towards what he thought about the world he saw humanity as another species in the animal kingdom which given the way christians talked about animals in this period of time was a pretty noteworthy belief um leneus noted that there were many subspecies of other mammals like dogs and cats you know you've got wolves and you've got coyotes and you got all these different and i don't know if he used that specific example but that kind of

stuff and he was like well you should probably categorize humans the same way which given the era of science he's in is not a bad thing but it's gonna cause some problems later because he divides the human race into four subspecies european american asiatic and african um i don't think carolus means much by it but uh it's gonna become a problem yeah i mean you know he tried his best but i gotta say that classification is a bit careless okay oh oh sorry wow incredible sounds like all right move on no you know what that's a t-shirt right there um yeah we'll figure it out all of that put it all in a shirt so leneus is a swede uh and one of his most influential colleagues is a dutch man the anatomy professor petrus camper camper spent way too much time

and leneus again groundbreaking scientist uh camper is a little sillier because one of the things this guy does is he spends a shitload of time looking at old statues like that the greeks had made and being like god why are these people so hot they must this must be this must be evidence that they are like the master race and we've all we're all like brute like descendants of them whose blood has been dirtied by race mixing is kind of the you just described the mindset of like so many twitter it's all it's yeah exactly all of these like traditional vibes twitter accounts are like look at this statue why don't we look like this anymore you're like look how hot the statue is and guess what that's a normal penis size it's very funny because like a thousand years from now

after you know the the nuclear war or the mushroom plague or whatever gets us some scientist is gonna find old copies of us magazine and start doing a racial taxonomy there's four subspecies there's the Beyonce there's the Pascal there's the cruise and there's like yeah no seriously they're just gonna be like there were no flaws anywhere in their skin uh sometimes they had no belly button which may have been a airbrush mistake i'm just i'm just imagining like year four thousand nazis like marching half naked under a banner of post malone just looking at a bunch of fucking like old vines you know the master race of the time sometimes had this uh uh they had dog ears and when they would open their mouth the tongue would roll out yeah and odds they would have the butterflies

around their eyes so really nice mixing has destroyed us future catholic stained glass release instead of like having the uh the the halos above their head they're just all yassified yassified jesus it was 1795 that we first get the term Caucasian coined by Johann Blumenbach who was of course a german uh Blumenbach used the term to quote describe the variety of mankind that originated on the southern slopes of mount Caucasus along eastern europe's eastern border he described Caucasians as the original race and the most beautiful now okay yeah here we go yep well we're uh we're off to the races now man let's do it none of this can be separated by from the atlantic slave trade which is starting to roar at the time or from the ongoing genocides in

the americas both of which cry out for a scientific rational explanation that lets enlightenment europeans feel good about the crimes against humanity they're committing right it would be one thing to be like i don't know man look back at the romans look back at like fucking han chai look at people forever we always are murdering and raping and enslaving each other we're just like that but europeans don't want to do that they want to be like no but we're liberals yeah we want there's a scientific reason we should be doing this yeah we read philosophy and we understand you know uh how precious the the human soul is yeah but i think sciences those guys are not humans so get a kill all yeah yeah it's really easier for someone else to make my drinks for me so i'm gonna i'm

gonna write a lot of books exactly dude um that's why your phd is just to justify exploiting every person's colleague you see this is like fully half of genetic science yes um so in the 1800s a generation of scientists arose that took the start blooming bach and camper and lineas had made and extended their conclusions much further samuel morton theorized in the mid 1800s that intelligence was linked to brain size declaring that white people had larger skulls and were the superior yeah this is he's like this is like one of the one of the precursors to phrenology for sure oh yeah morton's work is quoted and shared extensively by journalists and teachers in the era and it becomes accepted as settled science by a lot of white people now there was disagreement

even in this period um by principled men of science like friedrich tedamon who is also a german to be fair like the germans are on both sides of this fighting against it as well and tedamon using the very best scientific methods of the day tries to replicate morton's research about like you know well obviously white people of the biggest brains and he can't repeat it repeatability is a cornerstone of the scientific method the whole thing yes it's a big part of it yeah and he can't do it so he's like i'm gonna quote actually from a write-up in facing history that kind of summarizes this he also found no evidence for the racial hierarchy a kind of racial ladder on which caucasians always stood at the top and africans at the bottom that morton had claimed to uncover

tedamon's work did not attract much attention it was largely ignored or dismissed as unscientific but i don't think we should i think like as much as we're going to rightfully give the german scientific establishment this episodes we should note there are always guys like tedamon being like fuck this shit what are you talking about you people are like idiots like not not true and not right yeah um and he's not the whole idea of like you know on its face it is just the dumbest funniest thing that these guys are scientists and they're going oh the bigger brain may make more smart and i'm just like what the fuck are you like it's like the same reason that people you know green like movies like the meg where they're like yeah what if shark big bigger shark better shark

it's like very stupid you got to be kind of uh you gotta you gotta be kind of a dumb guy to like be like yeah big brain yeah a lot of it's just like you know the the the under like this kind of belief that i think a lot of people particularly people who are kind of inherently conservative have that like it's uncomfortable thinking that there might be other equally valid ways to live that are also it require an equal but different level of development and scientific understanding one of my favorite examples of this there's a great story there's this place and god it's somewhere in the amazon i forget exactly which modern day country it's in but it it's generally known to anthropologists and archaeologists as the lost city of z that like they were in like the

late 1800s i think early 1900s a bunch of these you know exploration age western scientists are always trying to find because i think they're supposed to be gold there is some shit and one of the guys who's who's looking for it the most does like three trips there and every one of them goes the same way he enters the amazon with like a hundred men and like six of them come out a year and a half later and everyone else has died horribly and i'll like his third trip in there they're all starving they're on the edge of death they're sick and they finally run into a group of natives who are like willing to talk with them and the the natives are like what you guys look like shit what's going on and they're like this this jungle is a green

desert there's no food at all and they like break a like this they grab this plant and break it in half and like toss it in a pond and a bunch of fish float up to the top because the the plant was full of a neurotoxin that they knew you just dumped this in the water stuns the fish then you just grab them they're like look there's all sorts of food around here what's wrong with you guys have you all just been dying and not not knowing this um oh yeah yeah because yeah i mean yeah they had spent all of their time writing books about skull shape whereas these people had spent their time figuring out how to turn their home into a fucking giant grocery store um i don't know i know what i find more impressive but yeah i mean europeans do other stuff too right they make

they make boats so that those are cool um so that's how we get the movie master and commander so who's to say right you know who's to say it's true you can't discount that that was a triumph that was a triumph um that's occurring around this period of time um and also unfortunately the scientist on that boat the doctor guy probably had some race science books on on that boat with him like i mean i'm afraid it's unavoidable they have all sorts of books you know you can't so yeah you can't fault them um i don't know i've only read one of the books that that movie's based on good movie though so teedaman is not the only guy who's pushing back scientifically on the arguments of kind of scientific bigots in his period um now to be noteworthy the guys who are like arguing

against some of this early race science their science is often bad too right the fact that they are like see properly that their colleagues are making bad arguments doesn't mean their arguments are scientifically flawless a good example of this is the seventh president of princeton samuel smith who speculated that black people were human beings just like white people and they were just black because a large freckle had spread over their entire body due to sun exposure uh it's close okay it's melanin his his heart is in the right place yeah he's i i get where he's yeah yeah he's not almost there yeah he's he's got pieces of it so dr benjamin rush meanwhile argued that all babies are born white and that black skin was the result of mild leprosy um

this kind of shows how sloppy the scientific method is because like i don't know you can just look at a baby like that's pretty easy to disprove you can just look at a baby but you know whatever um as a general rule the scientists arguing that they were perceived so basically you have kind of two groups here you have the scientists arguing there is a racial hierarchy and these are different subspecies right and you have the scientists arguing that like all of the differences that we see are the result of either nurture or environmental exposure not immutable characteristics um and the ones who are making that argument even when their science is bad are at least less likely to espouse racism to justify entrenched power structures now that

doesn't mean it doesn't happen because a decent chunk of like the people arguing for slavery and the 1800s are being like oh eventually we'll you know raise them up to be our equals it's just we have to keep them enslaved until then so that is like you know there's a lot of different things being said in this period um yeah so there's a lot of cool stuff happening in early race science one of my favorite guys here is lord munbado a Scottish philosopher who believed that he's one of these guys who it's all about environmental exposure and like what like uh nurture and stuff and his big argument is that like one day we will train chimpanzees to be integrated into society like we'll have chimpanzees in parliament i got i wish he'd been right honestly i like

where his brain's going with this i wish he'd been right yeah because i mean they do a better job than those clowns in congress that's right i mean i would i would i would vote for any living chimpanzee over almost any living congress person they probably don't have to ask the CEO of tiktok if uh their phones connect to wi-fi no they're just happy to look at the dancing lights you know exactly they don't they don't care about wi-fi they're they're chimpanzees and they're not cowards and if they really disagree with someone they will tear them limb for man can you imagine if we had like congress fights like we had in the 1800s but with a bunch of chimps oh it would be the number one that's all i watch i would just go into congress and like toss a bunch of bananas in the middle

of the floor let's get them fighting i feel like the the chimpanzees wouldn't go what are you gonna do about finsta yeah right it's so embarrassing no no it is embarrassing we would have a lot more land devoted to banana cultivation um i feel like they don't actually eat bananas and i heard that at some point but fuck it like yeah look whenever we get something like this wrong it gives some beautiful redditor a chance to be like well actually yeah oh my time has come and god god god bless you i just want to make you people happy so yeah you should do all of these scientists now though you know sophie robert yes some people can't stand the rain but at vessie we can't get enough of it that's why we make 100

percent waterproof shoes that look and feel anything but imagine your favorite sneaker styles supercharged with waterproof tech so when everyone else is staying in you're getting out for a walk with your pup and jumping in puddles like a kid again because with waterproof shoes there's nothing stopping you head to vessie.com that's vssi.com and see for yourself vessie come alive in the rain there are things women never talk about infidelity is one of them but that changes right now in my new podcast she wants more i'm joe piazza for the past year i've been talking to real women and reporting on the surprising and provocative reasons why they chose to have an affair i don't think you can get everything from a partner and if you do you're going to have

expectations that are not fulfilled i just feel like it's something that i needed something i deserved i think we need to take the stigma out of all of this like what could be more dishy or delicious or devastating than affairs there's one podcast everyone is going to be talking about listen to she wants more on the i heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts dates don't usually end with a satisfaction survey and yet we rate everything in our lives from uber drivers to local coffee shops so why don't we do the same thing when dating we're here to conduct the ultimate romance review featuring daters hungry for love who have agreed to call up old flames to gather honest feedback welcome to exit interview he upgraded himself to business class while i was

economy wait wow there's feedback that will make you cringe she could be a little bit hardheaded like not reading the writing on the walls and feedback that will make you swoon but she said that she had feelings for you i had no idea really and maybe you'll learn a thing or two yourself about how you can be a better dater lover or partner obviously like new is going to learn something i didn't expect this welcome to exit interview listen to exit interview on the i heart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts we're back oh sorry i was waiting for a speaking of bananas or something yeah so there's a lot of scientists in this period the kind of anti-race science guys who believe that all of the differences between men and women and between

different races that they believed existed would be reduced by social reform and legislation and you can see kind of evidence of this in the french revolution these ideas of liberty equality and fraternity the fact that it comes with like increased civil rights to to jewish people in the french empire these are all results of that intellectual tradition but progressive ideals like this always have their limits and again slave owners would use versions of this argument to justify aspects of what they were doing once slavery falls in the united states there's kind of a panic among a lot of people that race mixing is going to occur and thus would disastrously water down the potential of the species racial hygiene became a common topic

of discussion among medical professionals in the late 1800s and the two countries most associated with this movement are the united states and germany wow that's so shocking oh my god yeah it is yeah yeah not not my america that's not my america guys the my america is in my head and it's made up of all of the things of my morals so my america you know doesn't have stock rooms full of skulls of people that came from somewhere nope not in my america it's a land of milk and honey you know we'll talk we have talked about race science in the united states a number of times but right now we're getting back to germany so the keizer's germany had started to invest on in research on racial heredity a few years prior to world war one actually the year before joseph

mengler is born the rike health office puts together a file on russin hygiene um which actually sounds more racist than race hygiene yeah um it's it's much worse than the german um russin hygiene it's so yeah it included studies on population control and papers on racial differences between germans and jews now the keizer rike very racist this is evidence of that but when the war comes all of this kind of talk of differences it doesn't go away but it fades a lot because the germans are suddenly like you know who dies exactly the same in front of a machine gun jews and germans and we need a lot more of both if we're gonna get rid of all these allied bullets both have opposable thumbs and a little index finger that go pew pew the jews and the germans yeah we can all

do it let's table the racing for a second for a little bit figure out how to uh you know take over europe i mean kind of famously hitler gets awarded uh his iron cross in part due to the the intervention of his officer who's a jewish man like this is a um the keizer rike a lot of this stuff still exists it's budding it's building um but it's also not like the same as it's going to be so as a result it's during the weimar years that things really take a leap forward in 1920 the prussian interior council creates a council on racial hygiene to discuss how to grow the german population and halt illegal abortion while such work always had support from the right initially at least there is significant interest among scientists across the ideological spectrum

and to make that point i'm going to quote now from robert proctor's book racial hygiene medicine under the nazis many racial hygienists supported a kind of state socialism whereby a strong central government would direct social policy towards programs to improve the race the society for racial hygiene allied itself with a number of groups advocating social reform conversely many of those today remembered as progressives were attracted by the movement to improve the health of the race alfred grote john for example today considered the father of german social medicine and one of the leading architects of i'm our germany's progressive health reforms saw racial hygiene as a legitimate concern of medicine he was one of those who defended the use of the

term eugenics rather than racial hygiene in order to avoid confusion with racist notions of the political anthropological variety according to grote john racial hygiene would provide long range preventative medicine for the germ plasma of humanity that would complement both traditional curative medical care and concerns for the human physical and social environment provided by public health and social medicine racial hygiene along with social hygiene and personal hygiene was simply one element in a larger more comprehensive program of human health care grote john's views earned him the respect of more devout racial hygienists he was one of the few social hygienists in the weimar republic willing to advocate compulsory sterilization he also advocated for increased

powers to commit upwards of a million defective a socials to psychiatric institutions after 1933 german theorists are nazi racial theorists were able to turn to grote john as an example of a socialist who supported strong measures in the field of racial hygiene so this is a thing that doesn't get talked about enough that is the father of the german welfare state in a lot of ways grote john and in like at least in the health care portion of it he is a social democrat um and he is in favor of committing a million a social people involuntarily to uh uh institutions and sterilizing and mass people he defuses defective you know the same thing as brushing your teeth yeah it's the same it's the same as any kind of hygiene it's like taking a shower you know yeah

so you take a shower and then you uh you know you round up people yeah you start putting them in buses camps trains and a lot of it's worth we taught when we talk about race science we because of what happens and because of all of the worst crimes are in fact committed by the nazis when the right is in power we do tend to ignore the fact that eugenics and race science in germany are popular everywhere including with communists the idea of a planned genetic future is something that german communists are going to embrace as well for at least a period of time and it's not just in germany help themselves no well it's not just the germans either in 1925 the leading there's a soviet leading eugenics journal that publishes translations of german articles on racial hygiene

with positive remarks and partly as a result of this weimar germany and the soviet union establish a joint institute for racial biology in moscow between 1931 and 1938 there's overlap there with the nazi years there's a period of time well you're making the point that you know there's uh some sort of racial element for white people where they love race science yeah i don't know how to work that into my worldview and it's interesting i mean this is part of there's a bigger story here which is like during the 30s because both are kind of pariah nations the soviet union and weimar and the nazi germany actually have a lot going on together they're militaries trained together they do all sorts of like have all sorts of like i mean this is part of what

kind of lays some of the bones for the molotov ribbon-trop pact right but race science is not absent from the soviet union in this period many people know that the third rike's genocidal efforts began with the t4 euthanasia program in which people who were physically handicapped or seen as feeble-minded were put to death in traveling gas vans less is known that in 1928 it was socialist dr reneer fetcher who carried out some of the first sterilizations in german history he is doing eugenics sterilizations on his own without any permission he's like breaking the law to do this and he's like a socialist activist now the point here is not that socialists and nazis had the same attitude towards eugenics it's just that eugenics beliefs were popular even among socialists and

communists yeah obviously the nazis are the ones who use these ideas to massacre 12 million people in the service of race science um i'm bringing this up because you have to note that when you're talking about the origins of these ideas that are accelerated by the nazis and adopted by them they are not controversial among a lot of science scientists even scientists to find fascism abhorrent there's a lot of anti-fascist scientists who nonetheless believe the nazis are not entirely wrong about race science um that's the period that we're in so probably the most significant development in the early history of german race science is the establishment of the kaiser villhelm institute for anthropology human genetics and eugenics um very funny we know today kaiser

permanente kaiser permanente yeah yeah that's what kaiser permanente stands for the permanent kaiser actually if they are responsible for your health care you are legally a servant of the kaiser that's how it works that's my insurance yeah the kaiser by the way now is an ai-generated creature because that ai is really able to i was gonna do a i was gonna do a i was gonna do a hand joke but you know what that's not appropriate yeah um so that kaiser villhelm institute gets started in 1927 also in prussia which is kind of the stronghold of militarist conservatism in germany support for the institute came from the very top of the weimar state though including the president of the state health office and its chief medical statistician emil rossel who argued in favor of preventing

marriage of the mentally ill to healthy germans this did not occur in a vacuum rossel noted that england sweden the united states and norway all had similar institutes doing similar things when the kaiser villhelm institute opened its doors eugen fischer was appointed director he was a nationalist catholic uh but not a nazi early on and in fact a lot of his early research is kind of contra to the conclusions the nazis are making one of the things he'll argue is that hybridization leads to better health in european races like he does a bunch of studies about oh actually when you're like when you've got germans and you know slobs and english and we're all breeding everything turns out better um that's one of the things this guy argues um he's he's

kind of an interesting guy he one of the things he notes is that like where it has remained the most pure the nordic race has brought forth no great cultural achievements which is very much not a nazi attitude yeah i love it yeah and that said he's going to once the nazis take power he's gonna stop saying this shit and start pushing hardcore nazi dogma and he's going to bring in a lot of scientists who are just straight up nazis and the most influential of these is a guy named otmar von versheur who is a war veteran and a member of the right wing fry core paramilitary he is also a scientist studying genetics and race who is particularly fascinated with twins oh boy bomb bomb bomb oh god yeah no that's not look there's very rarely does it end well when

people are fascinated with twins oh yeah one way or the other a lot of fucked up shit comes from that yeah whether it's uh nazi experiments or being weirdly attracted to those beer commercials exactly yeah or the double mint ones so double why people want to fuck twins it's the it's the it's incest is going on so they don't i'm not into it i'm on record wow that's a that's another t-shirt yeah yeah just a picture of your face i'm not into twins i'm not into twins gross madly incest mm-hmm madly a statue of you breaking a packet of double mint gum in half i'm a big guy mm-hmm now big reds that that's an anti-fascist it really is big red is uh literally stallens gum of choice mm-hmm now the anarchist gum is of course big league chew

that's right um yeah uh look it up look it up so after hitler takes power fischer you know starts going hardcore into the nazi stuff uh he praises the nazis as the first political movement to recognize that culture is the product of quote the qualities of the race that has given rise to and carry it on that culture fischer draws a line between the marxists and men of natural science and national socialism when he says the marxist socialist view concerns itself with the single individual we national socialists in contrast concern ourselves with the family now here we go there's a we go there's a margaret thatcher quote that always makes me think about which is yeah there's no such thing as society there are men and women and there are

families um yeah but there's probably nothing to that probably nothing to that there's always a really relevant margaret thatcher quote when talking about nazi stuff there really is um but that's a subject for another day let us return to our buddy jojo mingy poo so jojo jo mingy ming yeah yeah jojo the mangola um so the nazis are not in power when he joins munich university as a student in philosophy and the medical schools um but they he's like doing an anthropology medical kind of thing where he's getting like his phd and his md kind of at the same time it's easier to get both back then um so while the nazis are not yet in power race science is humming right along when joseph starts school the nazis are the second largest party in the rike stag he would later

write about his early impressions of the national socialist party i was not then old enough to vote my political leanings were then i think for reasons of family tradition national conservative i had not joined any political organization though indeed i was strongly attracted by the program and the whole organization of the national socialists but for the time being i remained an unorganized private person but in the long run it was impossible to stand aside in these politically stirring times should our fatherland not succumb to the marxist bolshevist attack this simple political concept finally became the decisive factor in my life so yeah it all always starts with an obsession with anti-communism with these guys it really does

it's uh that is always the root and of course communism is jewish in their eyes so wow one thing leads to another oh wow wow good god how are you indeed jar jar how are you indeed um yes jar jar some people gonna die um good god uh good good god matt what then it plugables to plug oh you know same stuff uh you know if you like the sopranos or the wire and you want to you know rewatch it or just listen to guys you know talk about it pod yourself a gun it is the world's only the wire and uh you know sopranos podcast um yeah so i plug that and um you know uh i'll be all right this is gonna be a fun one i'm very excited you know i'm very excited for what's coming and uh i'm gonna just pet my child for a little bit yeah i'm gonna pet a child too i'll go find one

it's not hard yeah it's not hard that wording is really good for you buddy no so if you got a net it's fine um all right well that's gonna do it for us here at behind the bastards um until next time you know um look there is a next time after that comment fishing net works just as well on kids um anyway repeating it really helps it always does god bless you all behind the bastards is a production of cool zone media for more from cool zone media visit our website cool zone media dot com or check us out on the i heart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts some people can't stand the rain but at vessie we can't get enough of it that's why we make 100 waterproof shoes that look and feel anything but imagine your favorite

sneaker styles supercharged with waterproof tech so when everyone else is staying in you're getting out for a walk with your pup and jumping in puddles like a kid again because with waterproof shoes there's nothing stopping you head to vessie dot com that's v e ssi dot com and see for yourself vessie come alive in the rain three years ago i got a tip it just came out out of nowhere the biggest flash of my life for decades a deadly incident has been covered up for political reasons what was so big about this incident on npr's new podcast taking cover we unraveled the story behind the worst marine on marine friendly fire in modern history and why it was kept secret what did y'all have to hide listen to taking cover on npr's embedded on the i heart radio app or wherever you get your

podcasts the beauty translated is back y'all i'm your host carmen laron join me for all new conversations that go beyond atlanta beyond the south and beyond just skin deep with an all new season we're going to get into the discourse and challenge your perceptions of trans people and now every monday i will also be translating the headlines with a mini soad so you can stay up to date with the latest news within the trans community beauty translated is proud to be part of the outspoken network from i heart podcasts listen to season two on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts