Behind the Bastards - Part One: The Phil Spector Episodes

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Robert sits down with his old pal and Grammy-award audio engineer Greazy Will to discuss one of the music industry's greatest bastards: Phil Spector. (4 Part Series)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

World Zone Media. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards. Ladies, gentlemen, gentlethemes, and all points in between, this is a podcast about the very worst people in all of history. And normally, it's a podcast where I, the host, Robert Evans,

read a story about the very worst people in all of history to a guest who generally comes in cold, not always, yada, yada, we've been doing this eight years. You know, you know the drill phone. You've figured it out by now. Even I know the drill by now.

I know. And regular listeners will recognize the voice of my dear friend, Greasy Will, the Grammy Award winning, Greasy Will. Hey, buddy. What's up? How's it going? I'm very excited to be here. I know.

I'm so excited to have you. We are going to flip the rolls here. That's right. And I'm going to tell you about somebody who's very near and dear to my heart, a bastard of the music industry. And I'm very excited about this. Yeah, but I have a question first. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Greasy Will, who I love, my buddy. Do you know where this is being streamed right now? Oh, are we on Netflix? We're on Netflix. Yeah, our good buddy, Greasy Will here, the second we announced that we were going to be streaming video episodes on Netflix, commented sellouts, so what does that make you? That's what I hope to say.

My friend of 15 years. Look, when I was a kid, being a sellout was an insult. But now as an adult, the world that we're in, being a sellout just means you're successful. What are you going to do? It's exciting for me. Just means you get to buy the good produce. Are there other ways I made money in the past that I might have preferred more? Are there different ways to, you know, this is the future we've been given.

Look. Look, you're talking to a guy who, all right, so I have a course, a recording course that I made. And recently, I posted this ad that I had. made with a high quality camera, like the one you're viewing me on right now, if you are, in fact, viewing me. I have a high quality camera and all the comments where people like, greasy and high deaf is weird. I don't like it.

Welcome to our lives. Welcome to our lives. You specifically? Like, I do not do high quality in anything I do. In music, in anything. It's perfect, well, because I reached the peak of my, like, success as a professional in an audio, medium. And you also reached the peak of your success as a professional in an audio medium. Yes. And the powers that be in their wisdom decided, we got to put these guys on TV.

People need to see their faces for some reason. I don't know. When we moved to Netflix, a surprising number of people were just based on confusion or based on the fact that it changed from YouTube, we're like, I didn't realize that many people were watching the podcast. Right. Right. Right. We have, we've been working on it. We have gotten it to where audio episodes of the show are back on YouTube music. So if you listen to the show that way, I know there was, there was confusion. Things got disrupted there for a while, but for now on, that should be normal. And initially, a lot of our international viewers were cut out because it was Netflix wasn't letting, it wasn't, our show wasn't available internationally.

Damn region-specific broadcasts. Yeah. Now our show is available on most. of the places that Netflix serves. Worldwide baby, minus Vietnam and Korea for reasons. I don't know. So the Aussies out there, you can watch now if you've got Netflix. I don't know. Again, 90% of the audience listens because it's a fucking podcast. So hopefully none of this should be changing for most of you. Yeah. Who are we hearing about today, Will? What piece of shit are you going to tell me about? I know. So let me ask you this. Let me ask you this first. It's,

If you had a Mount Rushmore of horrible music people, right? Like whoever you could think of, who's your George Washington? It's got to be Michael Jackson because Michael's the perfect mix of that man's music. You simply can't cut his music out of popular culture and have it make sense. There's too big a gap. Like the impact he made is there and a bunch of his music is immortal. And also definitely raped a bunch of kits, ton of kids. That's like my peak bastard, man.

Yeah. I can give my four. Yeah, go ahead, Sophie. My four, Michael Jackson, R. Kelly, P. Diddy, and the subject of this episode. That's it. All right. So I'm going to tell you all, I don't think the subject of my episode makes it on the bastards, a Mount Rushmore.

Shots fired, Sophie. And here's, and here's why. Who do you put instead? Because you want to hear, because number one is Ian Watkins. Do you guys know who Ian Watkins is? No. Ian Watkins was recently just, actually, I was going to bring this up even before, but Ian Watkins was recently murdered in prison because they don't like those types of people

who do those things to infants. Oh. Infants. He was the singer of lost. Yeah, he was the singer of lost profits. And it's interesting that you've heard of this guy, yes. So it was interesting that you brought, because I do have a question in my overall thesis in discussing this person is when is it bad enough to cut somebody out

and when does their music overshadow the big, the big picture, right? Because we so often in the music industry we will give people weird passes. Weird people get weird passes just because they're good at something. You know, they're good at making noise.

That's kind of ridiculous to me. I do not think that makes a lot of sense. People really love your noises. So you're allowed to molest 15-year-olds. Yes, yes. Or younger. So our subject today is somebody who I think is horrible, and you will hear a lot of evidence to back that up, yes.

But our subject today is Phil Specter. Phil Specter, do you know about Phil Spector at all? Like, what do you know, Robert of Phil Specter? Here's how much I know about Phil Specter. In order to even listen to this podcast, I had to make sure I had a gun on me. Like, Jesus. That's. Because I know Phil's bringing one.

Yes. Yeah, Phil is definitely bringing a gun to the party, for sure. Okay. All right. Let's do it. This will be our episode today. We're going to talk about Phil Specter. Boom, cold open, done. We did it. We're done. We're opened coldly. Look at you. Prettyest girl at the party. I love it. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. You know, Roll Doll. He thought up Willie Wonka and the BFG. But does you know he was

a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more. What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Listen to the Secret World of Roll Doll on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F-1 romance novels, and plenty of mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire.

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on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Are you guys ready to hear about Phil Specter? I was born ready. Well, actually, I was born bloody with a cord wrapped around my neck, but also ready.

Were you, in fact, a cord baby? That explains a lot, I think. Maybe. I don't remember. My mom was in labor for, like, 70 hours. Something was wrong with me. My God. I think I was... Yeah, she had a chip on her shoulder about that.

It might have just been 48 hours. It was like a long time. And in perfect comparison of our relationship, my mom was in labor with me for less than an hour. I think my mom had me inside of the back of a pickup

truck, but I don't know. Like a camper, maybe? I think he was one in a camper. You are one of a my friends most likely to be born inside of a pickup truck. Oh my gosh. Yes. I say it's an honor. So first off, I want to say this is why I picked Phil Spector and well, because I am personally a very big fan of his work. It is, it is informed a lot of my work as a musician,

as a producer, as an engineer. I love Phil Spector's work. To me, it was, it was so groundbreaking for the time for many reasons. And there's a lot of like, uh, future, um, of music that came from where he was at, you know? And I like to do that game of like, oh, well, I like the Beatles and the Beatles were really influenced by like what Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys were doing. And Brian Wilson loved Phil Specter, right?

And so it's like if you are a Beatles fan, you not only have heard Phil Spector's work, you've also, you've also like been influenced by him indirectly through them loving, you know, the chain of command that it were. Right, right, right. Chain of Cuts. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes. So Harvey Philip Specter, his name was not Phil. Original Harvey, Harvey, Harvey was his name. Harvey Phillips Spector was born on December 26, 1939, in the Bronx, New York. That's at least what the birth record say. His mom claimed that he was born on Christmas Day because she honestly and truly, I think, maybe believed that he was the second coming of Christ. That was actually like, she was, she was, she was,

Yeah. Really, really, like, into it. So, uh, okay. He, he had an older sister, Shirley, and an older brother who died just days after being born, who was born just before him, which is a bit why he got the ultimate Jewish mother protection system going on over him for his whole childhood. Oh, yeah. So he is, he is wrapped up. There's a wall between him in the real world. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

There are unconfirmed theories regarding Spector's extended family structure. Some biographical accounts suggest his parents may have been closely related, possibly even first cousins. Though this has never been definitively proven, but he said it all the time. He would tell people this. He'd be like, my parents were cousins. I was like, all right. I guess randomly at like lunch on a Tuesday or something, he's bringing this stuff up. Cool story, brother.

Yeah. Yeah. What is well documented is that both sides of his family were Jewish immigrants whose families fled. Let's take a break real quick. Robert, you want to play Guess the Country, his Jewish relatives had to escape in the late 1800s to early 1900s. I'm going to go with Poland? Oh, so close. Very close, very close, very close.

We don't know exactly, but probably Belarus or... Oh, Belarus, yeah. Yeah, yeah, or Ukraine, too. Ukraine too as possible. So you're in the right area. A lot of people who are like, I don't know exactly what country they were in, in part because it was several countries over the period of time they lived there. That's literally the description that's most often given is Eastern Europe.

They fled Eastern Europe. He lived under three or four governments. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this is a very classic early 1900s American tale of, you know, Jewish immigrant families leaving their country because of the anti-Semitic programs going on and then coming to America, settling in New York in a very Jewish neighborhood or being surrounded by other Jews who had escaped these same situations. So obviously some generational trauma going on for sure to start off and also family trauma and also some questionable things going on with his mother already, you know, as far as her mental, stability is.

So as a child, Spector was described as overweight and physically fragile. He struggled with recurring health problems and was often encouraged to stay indoors rather than participate in sports or outdoor activities. He developed a strong dislike for beaches, athletics, and

physical competition, and any environment where he felt exposed and inadequate. Over time, his body changed. Yeah. He hates beaches. He hates beaches. That's my favorite. bit of that whole thing. He's like, yeah, you know what I hate?

I hate beach. You are not Ken, Phil Spector. Your job is not beach. Okay. No joke. Like, multiple times throughout any of the biographies that you read about him, it's brought up that he doesn't like beaches, specifically beaches. He's like, oh, yeah, Phil wouldn't go to Venice because there was a beach close by.

Like, he was, like, mad about it. All right, bro. As he entered adolescence, he lost weight dramatically, and he became notably small. and slight in stature. Instead of solving his insecurities, this transformation reinforced them. He remained physically unimposing, ill-suited for sports,

and deeply self-conscious about his appearance and masculinity. As an adult, he would always joke that, like, when they were picking sports teams, that he wanted to be the manager. I'm the manager of the team today, you know, like, right from, because he's like, I'm not going to play sports. It's ridiculous.

What a weird little guy. When Phil was nine years old, his father, Benjamin Specter, died by suicide. Ooh. Yeah. We are going to have some classic bastard style empathy

to start off our show today. That's tough. That's tough. He's having a difficult start of things. Yeah. Yes, he's had it rough. I'm sure this won't make him a monster. Spoiler alert.

His dad killed himself. So basically the story's his dad left the factory. He was like a metal worker and he left the factory. and started driving home and just parked a couple blocks away, put a hose in his tailpipe,

and started sucking on some carbon monoxide fumes in his car. And they don't know, they don't really even know why he did it. Like, he had financial stress, but, you know, decided he was done. Yeah, yeah, it was the right time

for that to be a normal thing, you know. Yeah. Financial stress, business failures, depression, they've all been cited possible mental illness as well. Like there seems to be a very strong prevalence of that in Phil's life. Whatever the cause, the event shattered the whole family, right? So birth of specter becomes the central force in Phil's life, tightening a grip on her son's emotional and developmental trajectory.

Alongside it was Phil's older sister Shirley, who would exhibit as much control of issues over Phil as his mother did. Both of them would emotionally abuse Phil often. His mother would often disparage his father. and blame young Phil for his death. So she's like over there. Great. Like your dad killed himself because of you.

Before you, he was happy. And then you came along and then he killed himself. And that's the best thing for kids, right? Giving them that sense of agency and control. No, you killed your dad. And you can do anything you put in your mind to, including kill your parents, which you already did. Right?

Yeah. Very impressive, bro. I couldn't kill my parents. All right, so she treated his father's death as a source of family shame as well, too. So it was like she never told the truth about it to anybody. Like if she met somebody and they're like, oh, he's off in Europe on business or he died in the war. Like she's always like just making up other things and not saying, oh, yeah, he killed himself or whatever. Which I mean, I guess I kind of understand.

You know, it's not like I'm like, yeah, dude, mom, stepmom killed herself, which is facts. You know, I guess I just did announce it to the world. Never mind. So, yeah, obviously not a great start to life. He's small, he's frail. His dad kills himself. His mom and his sister are both super possessive and controlling over him. Pretty bastardsy start to the story.

Yeah. Not long after Benjamin's death, Bertha relocated the family across the country to Los Angeles. This is where Phil decides he absolutely hates being called Harvey and he starts going by his middle name Phil. Cool. All right. The move placed them in the predominantly Jewish. neighborhood of Fairfax, which this is just a stupid little aside, but all the kids

called it, like, and the neighborhood's called it fairy facts, because it was like, like, the weakest school around. They were like, so he's like the, he's like the weakest kid at the weakest school. Right. Right. Yeah, they're calling his school. They're basically calling his school gay in, like the parlance of the times, right? Which was absolutely not true when I was in high school, because Fairfax beat our ass at basketball. Well, it's good to hear that they, they, they, I don't know, I don't know if it's Turns out money does something long term. Shocking.

So Phil struggled to make friends outside a small circle of family and school acquaintances, and he remains socially awkward and intensely sensitive and deeply dependent on maternal approval, obviously, on account of his mom and the way she is. Yeah, the mommy issues. His only advancement into social normacy came as a result of his musicianship. He was said to be able to play any song that you heard on the radio. He'd heard on the radio. and could play it immediately.

Like, he could just, through, start, like, playing along before the song even finished, right? During this time, Phil found himself his first real girlfriend, a girl named Donna Cass. Donna believed, Donna recalled Phil being very intelligent,

but intensely possessive. He would call to places he believed she was and question the people there about her whereabouts. And when he found her, he would grill her about what she'd been doing, right? She said she believes this was his nature because it was what Bertha and Shirley

did to him whenever he was at home, right? She said, this is from breaking down the wall of sound. By the way, this will be my primary source for almost everything. Mick Brown wrote an amazing book, Breaking Down the Wall of Sound. It's really, really good. We'll touch on some stuff about it later. But that and Ronnie Specter's book, which was Be My Baby, which is amazing. I highly recommend reading the audio or hearing the audio book of that because it's

narrated by Rosie Perez, which is. Oh, my gosh. It's amazing to listen to Rosie Perez narrate this whole story because she's like, you know, she's like... She's Rosie fucking Perez. You know, she's got that whole thing. It's amazing. It's really good.

Yeah. From breaking down the wall of sound, quote, to Donna, it was as if Bertha and Shirley saw her as a rival for Phil's affections who was trying to steal him away from them. She says, I always felt they were in love with him or something. They treated him like he was a God. They protected him and they wanted to protect him from me.

Weird. So, so this is like 15, 16 years old. He's already intense. Like, they barely even had phones. And this dude is calling around checking on his girlfriend everywhere she goes and like making sure his story matches at like, you know, like 15, right? Unhinged. I think it's, you know, yeah. Well, and here's a thing is this is something that I think is into it. A lot of musicians are weirdos, right? It's like there's a certain thing that goes along with being a weirdo. and being like that kind of musical genius that you can hear a song and, you know, and play it the first time you hear it, right? There's something that's like kind of hand in hand with the two personalities that kind of seem to go together

a lot of time. So it's not weird to be weird, right? It's not weird to be small. It's not weird to be skinny. It's like I know a lot of those people in the music industry. But it is weird to be possessive and shitty, you know, and like, and treat, you know, and have a pattern against women,

which we'll see in this whole thing. So during his teenage years in Los Angeles, Spector became obsessed with guitarist Barney Kessel, one of the most respected and accomplished session musicians working in the recording industry. Kessel was a jazz guitarist, but would often go on to play pop hits of the day and eventually became part of the legendary wrecking crew.

You know about Hollywood music in this time, the wrecking crew is everything. They played on every single song in the late 50s and early 60s, way to the 70s pretty much. They were the band you heard in the back of it. So Phil respected in both for his mastery of jazz and his seamless transition to other genres. At one point, Spector was given the opportunity to meet his idol.

The meeting did not unfold as he had imagined. Bertha, his mother, insisted on accompanying him. No, Bertha. With his idol. Yeah, Bertha, she does it, man. During the conversation, she begins questioning Kessel about career prospects, financial stability. practical viability, like a career in music, all this stuff. It's like, yeah, he's like, he's there.

He's like, yeah, dude, I get to meet this guitarist, this legend. And she's like, well, what's the money like in the job? You know? Yeah. She's just taking over control of this whole conversation. And Phil's just so embarrassed. Like this goes from being like, oh, I get to meet my hero in music to like, I'm just really embarrassed.

I'm really embarrassed that I'm sitting here having this conversation. And this is just, this is a. his mom. His mom is in control of his life at all times. He's always, he's always stuck with that. That's, yeah. Okay. I did not realize, like, knowing about like the later stage of Phil Spector's life somewhat, I did not realize he started out dominated by his mom to such an extent. That, yes. That does kind of scan. It does kind of scan. Yeah. You know, I mean, there, it's not always true, right? It's like a lot of times, a lot of times people are just shitty people, right? But a lot of if you look into it, it is kind of like

when your dad, when you're little, like, oh, he's just beating you up because he's got a shitty home life and he's trying to, sometimes that is true. Sometimes they're just bullies, you know, but sometimes they just, they got a shitty home life and they're dealing with something that you can't possibly understand. So,

by the mid-1950s, Spector began forming musical groups with classmates and neighborhood friends. Eventually, he helped create a vocal trio called the Teddy Bears, consisting of Phil Annette Kleimbard and Marshall Leeb. The group formed the teddy bears. Yeah, that's such a 1950s name too.

Yeah. You know? Yeah, it is. So the group formed through teenage friendships. They all went to the same school or whatever, and like they knew each other. And so it was like just a very high school organic situation, right? But then Phil's sister, Shirley, forced her way into the band as a manager, right? She like immediately is like, as soon.

they start having any success whatsoever, she forces her way into the whole situation as the manager. And then when Phil's like, no, I don't want you to be in a manager. Mom's like, let it be the manager, Phil. You know, like, immediately, yeah, immediately, like, takes his sister's side.

So, and she has no idea what she's doing, of course. So, like, she makes horrible decisions all over the play. She's doing dumb stuff. But Phil is still, he's the architect of this whole thing. And he writes this amazing song, right? In 1958, while still in high school, Spector wrote and produced a song title, To Know Him is to Love Him. This is where I'll make my first entry into Evidence of Phil was Seriously Fucked Up. Like, I had some, he was fucked up, right?

But this is where we're going to get into Phil was seriously fucked up. So, if you show Robert the image of the gravestone there? Yep. Okay, I'm seeing it. Yeah, Ben Spector, April 20th, 1949, father, husband to know him. 420, baby, yeah. Yeah, 420. Hell yeah, brother.

To know him was to love him. What was that? The name of Phil's song there was to know him is to love him. Phil wrote. He doesn't have daddy issues. He's doing good. He's fine. Yeah.

Phil wrote a song and he talks later. He says this is this song is about death. You know, this is a song about death. And nobody noticed because it's framed in the 1950s kind of, you know, to know, no, no, no. is to do him. Yeah, it's very silly. But he had, you know, nobody else gets it.

But if you listen to it, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, you were kind of like. It was like a huge fucking hit. Yeah, it was a huge hit. It was a huge hit. It was very big deal. It became a massive national hit, reaching number one on Billboard charts. Part of its success came from Sidebastor's appearance. Dick Clark American Bandstand.

Side Baster. Yes, that's right. Dick Clark is a. side bastard today. I'm not going to get deep into him, but he basically invented payola. People would pay him to put bands on American bandstand. And it, because of him, like, literally, like, that's what got

out of control eventually and caused, like, the biggest, you know, one of the biggest scandals in the music industry for the longest time is, like, you have to pay in order to become successful. Yeah. Thanks, dude. Yeah, the pay-to-play deal. Thanks for creating that. Yeah. So, the success was astonishing, right? the band's youth. Phil is only 17 at this time. He's a, he's a baby, right? Um, so it's,

it's massive. Like Sophie said, it was a number one hit across the country. It was a huge song. Even today, it's still like, kind of a big song like that. I looked it out and had like a couple hundred million streams or something. It was insane. Um, yeah. This experience kind of cemented because he was the architect of this whole thing. He was the, the boss of this whole situation. So this kind of cemented his like dominance in the studio. This is what made him one of, he was the producer on it at 17 years old. You have a number one hit in the country. Your ego is probably going to go a little.

Yeah. It's certainly not. So, but this is where I'm going to hit item number two of Phil Specter was seriously fucked up. But before you do that, as the boss and the producer of this podcast, you know what time it is. Oh, shit. It is time for some advertisers. And you know what? None of our sponsors did is raise Phil Specter.

I feel confident saying that. None of our advertisers helped raise Phil Specter. Fairly certain. I believe it. I was really curious where you were going with that. Yeah. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them.

And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What?

And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood,

where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitcher. before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

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Greg Alespie and Michael Marincini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why hasn't a woman formerly participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagageddon change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No Grip,

a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishap, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. I sure love those ads from, I don't know, probably the Portland Police Bureau and then some AI company. No. I wish you'd get sponsored by a whiskey company.

That would be nice. I know. I wish I'll take your whiskey. I'll tell people to drink it. I have no problem telling people, you know, to drink. There's no health consequences to that, you know. It's a lot healthier than gambling. I actually try it.

Like, I was doing social media for a little while where I was doing cocktails with Greasy. Like, as like a thing hoping like some company would be like, hey, this guy is. Doing alcohol content. We could be some liquor, yeah. Didn't work, though. That was the only reason to do it. I literally just was like, oh, some free booze, you know? Like, let's subsidize this control.

You're just throwing out like a fishing line and hoping a brand picks up so you can drink for free. That's all I've ever wanted. That's how the internet works now. All right, where are we? All right. So while on tour, Spector was allegedly cornered by hostile individuals who mocked and humiliated him. What are they mocking him about? Being short, being a nerd, being

short and nerdy. I mean, this is still old enough that just being short and having glasses will cause you some serious shit. Yes. So keep in mind, too, like, this is important. He at adulthood was probably only like five foot three.

Like he did not, when I say he was little, he was real little, right? So like, we don't know if this story is true. It's very mythological bullshit type stuff. But we don't know if this story is true. But it absolutely, if it is true, it makes a lot of sense about who he would later become. He was physically restrained and urinated on during the encounter. The precise details vary depending on the source.

And it's like kind of multiple biographies reference it. He said it. He told this story later on as well. He gets like ganged up on by a bunch of guys outside of a show who are making fun of because he's a short little nerd, and they, like, hold him down and piss on him, it sounds like? I think he's in the bathroom when it happens.

You're like, like, he goes in to go to the bathroom after a show and they, like, attack him in the bathroom or whatever. It's very, like, 90s, like, teen high school movie type situation. Yeah. Yeah. It's very strange. That's almost like a carry type deal or heathers or something.

Like, that's intense bullying when they're pissing on you. Yeah. If the story is accurate, it appears to have deeply scarred him. Yeah, that would. Yeah. That's pretty bad. Especially when you think, like, imagine where he's at in this whole situation. Like, he thinks he's, like, made it.

Like, he's on top of the world. He's got a number one hit in them. And he's got money. He's got success. People all over the country are seeing him come to see him play shows. And he just goes to the bathroom, like, walking off stage probably one night. And he gets jumped in the bathroom and pissed on. Like, that's...

Oh. Yikes. Yeah, that'll be your number on you. I think it's going to make him a better guy. Yeah, definitely. Definitely not going to make him a nice person. All right. So, despite the group's success, fractures quickly appeared within the teddy bears.

Annette Clyn Bard used her earnings from the hit record to purchase a car. And not long afterwards, she was involved in a serious accident that left her hospitalized for an extended period. So she gets a bunch of money. She gets a nice car. She drives one of those 50-60s cars that's just, it's steel. There's no seat belts. All of the force of the impact is transferred to you. Yeah.

We're probably predating like the National Traffic Safety Board, like requiring seatbelt by like 20 years at this point. I feel like, yeah. I don't know when. So she gets in this horrible accident and this is kind of the nail in the coffin for the group. But, you know, Annette says that, well, she's in the hospital. She gets in this horrible accident. And Phil doesn't call her or come by or anything. He just, that's it.

That's just the end. He just leaves. He just goes away and that's it. There's no ban anymore. So they're like high school friends. This is very strange, you know, to like... I see. To get this, you know, this far successful with your high school friends.

And there's no incident. It's not like they didn't get along or anything like that. They were all friends. And then he was just like, deuses. I'm out of here. What do you think it comes like she could no longer provide use to him? You think it was something like that or we really can't even speculate? I think you're right on the path, Sophie.

I think you will find, as we continue on, anytime somebody stops serving their usefulness to him, Phil is done with him. He just wipes him from his life, no problem. Very transactional. Which, spoiler alert, is the next person we're going to talk about, Lester Sill. Lester Sill, this is right after this time or during this time.

This is when he made friends and a partnership with Lester Sill. Lester Still was a decorated War II veteran who fought in the Battle of the Bulge. He made his way into the music industry after that and despite what you'd think, actually the nicest guy. Everybody's like, oh, dude, as soon as he walks in the room, he's the best, man.

I love this guy, you know? Like, this is like... If you lived through the Battle of the Bulge, it's hard to get like bent out of shape about the little things. One would assume, but also I've met a lot of very disgruntled war veterans. in my time.

And I've been like, why are you guys so mad, bro? Just like, I don't know. Get an addiction that helps out or something. I don't know. Right, get an addiction. That's always my advice to people. So Lester took a liking to Phil

and assumed a fatherly role in his life. So he like really does step into Phil's life. Him and Bertha and Phil start having problems at home. He lets Phil move in with him, you know? He gives him connections. He introduces him to people. He tells everybody this is this killer, a producer, Phil. Like, he's just like helping him out anywhere.

And he even sends him to Phoenix, I believe it was, to meet Lee Hazelwood. Lee Hazelwood, at this time, is a really successful writer. He would later go on to write, these boots are made for walking, which is my girl's. My girl Nancy Sinatra. She's so beautiful. That's one of the finest achievements of our species, yeah. Love that song. So he sends him to hang out.

with Lee Hazelwood and Lee Hazelwood hates him Lee Hazelwood is like this motherfucker won't stop asking questions he's always like doing stuff he's like he's weird and he's just always around me and I don't like him and he tells him

never bring him back to my studio I never want to see that guy again wow okay so this is like kind of seems like a pattern as we'll start to like emerge here is that like either you love Phil or you are like,

I can't stand that, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, that guy's the worst. So after this, he moves on to a relationship with another girl. So he breaks up with Donna Cass or whatever. He moves on to a relationship

with another girl, Lynn Castle. But it was short-lived as she couldn't stand as incessant interrogations. This quote, his behavior got too frigging crazy, too absolutely crazy. Where are you?

What are you doing? Where are you going? Controlling. Yeah, that sounds right. So, this is, clearly a pattern. He is absolutely controlling. He's like definitely trying to like

That's basically what I knew about Phil Specter going into this is that he was like super controlling in his professional and personal relationships. Yeah. That's kind of all I knew. And that is that is exactly it. And we'll get more into like this professional side of this too. But it is it is alarming early. You know? And like Sophie we brought this up earlier. It's like letting people get away with.

stuff and how long can they get away with it, you know? And it seems like, I mean, it's the 50s. So let's be fair. Like, this is still the time where, or like early 60s. This is definitely the time where like jokes on TV were like, your wife is talking too much. Give her the old one for in the eye, you know? Right, right, right. You know, like the honeymooners are like actively like to the moon.

I'm going to punch you right. Yeah, yeah, bang zoom straight. It's like an aspect of like, yeah, because it's just like so common. Universal at the time, right? It's so nice to hear somebody else do an old-timey voice besides Robert, because Robert's so good. Straight to the moon, Alice. That's not even a good accent.

I love it. Archie Bunker's shit. It's great, you guys. You were doing your best. It is, there's two different, it's interesting, the two different kinds of reactions to, oh, I keep, like, doing things I'm not supposed to be doing, and I haven't gotten in trouble yet, because, like, the two reactions are the one, the one I have had about things that I won't talk about on air, where at a certain point, more than whatever the statute of limitations

is ago, I was like, I'm going to stop doing this, done this too many times, I'm not going to keep taking this risk anymore. Like, I've gotten lucky, but I feel like I'm going to stop rolling the dice on this. I feel the exact same way every time my, my registration on my car goes more than eight months out of date. When I'm like, all right, eight months, that's a long time to be getting away with this. Yeah, those three years I didn't register my car. Right. Yeah, stuff like where it's like, I probably now I'm, we're shoplifting, where it's like, I've got enough money now. I'm not going to keep taking the risk. And then other people who are like, no one's called me on my shit, guess I'm going to get

even crazier. And then they become the president. No reason to stop now. All right. So, spoiler alert on Phil. He doesn't get any better. This is, this is his pattern. He keeps going.

But they do break up, him and Lynn. break up and he starts expressing desire to relocate back to New York City. New York offered something that he really wanted, which was proximity to a legitimacy. In New York at the time, there is a building called the Brill Building.

And we're going to tell you, well, I'll just read because it's better to read than summarize, I think. Spector quickly embedded himself in the Brill Building ecosystem, the highly competitive songwriting and production factory that produced some of the most influential pop music of the era. The environment was famously

ruthless. Young writers churned out songs daily competing for placement with artists and labels. Success required speed, instinct, and relentless self-promotion. Spector thrived creatively, but developed a reputation almost immediately for opportunism. So I just read this thing where it's like, hey, everybody's cutthroat up in this shit. And then it's like, Spector immediately gets a reputation for being opportunistic in a cutthroat building, to be opportunistic to be like that in a cutthroat building. You definitely... In the music industry to be a cutthroat for people to be like,

that guy is fucking ruthless is something, yeah. Multiple collaborators from this period later accused him of aggressively positioning himself for credit and financial participation in projects that were often collaborative efforts. Right. There were recurring stories of Spector inserting himself into songwriting or production roles

and minimizing the contributions of others once success became likely. In some cases, he was accused of, of leaving collaborators off credits entirely, a move that not only deprive them of recognition, but also cut them out of long-term royalty income. So he's already just ruthless. So there's something that I want to bring up here,

which is about the way that writing works or writing a song works, right? Which is like the deal is, if there is no prior agreement, all right, if two people just walk into a room and write a song together, it is 50. not as, right, and not as part of a pre-existing business arrangement or whatever. Yes, yeah, yeah, they did not, and no one specified like, hey, spontaneous art.

Yeah. Yes. If nothing is specified, it is a 50-50 split. Doesn't matter if one person wrote one word and the other wrote the entire song and all he was like, if you come into that, if it's three people, it's 33 to third. If it's four, it's 25%. Unless you have already agreed to something, that's what the, like, legal split is for this whole situation. So for him to come into like sessions and be like jumping right on, it's like, it's like, I've seen this before.

Like somebody walks in the room and starts suggesting things and you're just like, you just took a portion of my cut of this song. And your suggestions were things I was going to do anyways, that's kind of annoying, you know? It's like it's really easy to finagle in this time period especially. So a fellow writer named Beverly Ross who helped Phil recalled his promises to bring her with him if he were to ever get into the right rooms. but he reneged immediately upon being granted opportunities. She saw Phil as a user and she was eventually offered a staff job, but she declined it because she would have to see Phil every day. So this woman literally turns down a successful money-paying job writing at the Brill Building

because she was like, oh, I'd have to see Phil every day. And he is cold. I don't want to be around him. He's the worst, right? Yeah, he's sketchy as that. I respected a man could be the, that annoying that you're like, absolutely not. This is not worth the job.

The job is not worth my peace of mind. Please stay away for me. We should all have that much self-respect. Yeah. Really, but you know, 2026, man, it's hard, man. It's hard to live. You've got to get the Netflix deals. Yeah, I have friends searching right now.

Nuts. All right. So this is from her, quote, I was so gun shy of ever becoming vulnerable to someone who'd betrayed me like that. because Phil practically killed me emotionally. I figured I wasn't smart enough to handle the part of his personality that I understand. It was like Phil was born without a conscience and I was his victim.

He could be so ruthless. Wow. So seemingly, we have heard only from women that this is an issue, right? It's like, this does not seem to be very much a male issue. Consistent, yeah. Women around him have to feel the, you know, I mean, yeah. Again, not to give anybody an out or any empathy for somebody who's a shitty person because like shitty acts or shitty acts and it doesn't matter.

But you can see like this is kind of like an emotional reaction to his mother and his sister pushing him, controlling him. And also too. An explanation isn't absolution. I think I'm going to talk about this later. But so Phil, whenever he went to work at the Brill building, after he got his money from the teddy bears, right, he made a lot of money. he had to actually take his mother to court.

I know it's so funny. He had to take his mother to court to get his money because even as like a teenager, his mom was like, no, he can't, you can't be trusted, you'll leave us, you won't let us have any money, you won't take care of us. And so he's basically, even like going into adulthood, he's having to fight his mom in court over his own money

because of the way that she is, the controlling nature of her and everything. So, you know, it's like he's doing that while also controlling other people and, and, you know, doing shitty things to other women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah. So it's in part just kind of his revenge based on his shitty mom. Yeah.

Yeah, he's just taking it out on other people. Well, also just he grew up learning that, like, that's what you do to people. Like, you can either be controlled or controlling. Yes. I'll pick controlling. Yeah. Sure. So, so, yeah.

being cutthroat, like we said, being cutthroat isn't weird in the music industry. Like, you know, there's a lot of people that are famous for their, like, ruthless activities inside the music industry, especially in the old days or whatever. But to be in a cutthroat environment and be the cutiest, throatiest person of that environment is like, okay, like everybody is like, no, Phil is the worst of all of them. Like, you know, everybody in the building hates him. Nobody trusts him. He gets a reputation from just being like the dude that would show up all the time and just

like jump in on things and take control and all this stuff. People don't like him. So one of the most important relationships spectre formed during this New York period was with legendary songwriting production doer Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller. Leiber and Stoller were already giants of the early rock and rhythm and blues era and were responsible for shaping hits for artists like Elvis Presley, the coasters, like numerous other artists. They were architects of the modern producer model combining songwriting and arrangement and studio direction into a single creative authority. At this point, like music is changing really fast at this point, you know, because the technology is changing. The way that people operate is changing.

It went from being like, oh, this is a band that plays this music to now like we got a creative team. All these people are writing this stuff. And like also too, this is really important. This is the first time in musical history that music goes from being marketed to adults to being marketed to teenagers. Oh, yeah. Because prior to this, there has never been teenagers with money. Right. They weren't an economic force.

Right. Yes. They weren't an economic force. As a teenager, you were just working in the minds and handing money to your parents so that they could buy starvation with it. Yeah. So you can afford to starve to death. So this is the first time in all of recorded history, basically, that teenagers become a market, right?

Wow. And this is really important to this whole overview. view of like where where the the money comes from and how they market to things and how they even write a song like so it went from being like okay a band does all this to like a group of guys would get together in a room and start being like okay cool like I wrote this song I was going to give it to this person but you know we should give it to this person and that's why in this time you'll see a lot of like uh you know like Aretha Franklin songs that are also Otis Redding songs later or whatever you know like people would just write a song and

give it to an artist, and then anybody who liked that song would also cover it because the money went back to the publishing. The performance is a minimal amount of the money. The publishing is the money. So these guys would keep giving these songs to other people, other artists, and be like, you should do this song. And it just became normalized to do that. So the strength of the music industry went from being bands to being producers, right?

And this is where Phil kind of slams hard. into the industry. All right. So he falls in, like he, he falls in with these guys Leber and Stoller

who are like the guys of the time. They are the Max Martins or whatever famous producer the, the Kenny Beetz or the Dr. Dreys or the whatever you love,

they are that of this time. And Spector admired them intensely. He studied their recording techniques, their business strategies, and their ability to shape artist identities from behind the glass. In many ways,

Lieber and Stoller provide his Fector with a blueprint for the career he wanted to build. Despite recognizing his talent, however, Lieber and Stoller never fully trusted him. Accounts from associates and later biographies described them as simultaneously impressed by Spector's musical talents and wary of his personality. He was ambitious, obsessive, and socially abrasive. He pushed himself into rooms he had not been invited into. He demanded opportunities he had not yet earned.

He hovered around sessions, absorbing information, and inserting suggestions, persisting trying to attach himself to projects. But they kept giving him chances, right? Part of this was practical, because he was good. He was very good. He was musically talented. Yeah.

Yes. And so it's like, man, you ever worked with somebody who's good at their job but a horrible person? Yes. Like, we've all been there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Many a time. Many a time. Right? Yeah. And you're like, Oh, Spectre's coming to the studio today. Yeah. We're going to write a banger.

I'm going to make sure I'm not there, but. Yeah. We're going to write a banger, but he sucks. He's in the room with that dick. Yeah. Yeah. Their willingness to tolerate him also reflected that, you know, he represents the next step, like what I was just talking about.

He's the next step in the evolutionary ladder of working in the music industry. You know, it's like he's, he is the producer model that will become the tour to force in the industry. That's a good note. I do want to say, you know, and I'm willing to settle for Will. Billions of dollars. I only want to become a billionaires for the record. And I'm sure, I know, I actually know that you do get,

you get billions of dollars from these ads, right? I do. I do. Billions, every single ad we get a billion dollars for. And there's no health care given to any of your employees. You are just like, you are a hard-core Jeff Bezos, man. I actually bought Bezos's yacht just to sink so that my yacht will avoid sinking the same way. I've heard about that yacht.

I would not. Don't sleep on that couch as well, I'm saying. Anyways, it's time for an ad. Let's all think about what diseases you get from Jeff Bezos's yacht couch. And here's a man. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Canadian women are looking for more.

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decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. The answer was gonorrhea. All right. Well, let's continue. All right. So this is where Phil starts really developing his understanding of how records are made, how, I mean, this is a learning environment.

This is the professional, like, environment of writers in New York. This is his like high school or college or whatever. This is his moment. He absorbs all that. And he starts really understanding like the recording studio and the process of recording is like the music itself. The music comes from the environment that this stuff is made in as much as anything else. And this is kind of like a new concept because, you know, music is, we're in the 60s right now, right? We're in the 60s.

we only really started having like reasonable sounding recording recorded music like 10 years prior to this before anything like that before 10 years like we only got everybody say thank you to Adolf Hitler right now thank you Adolf

without no one of his many contributions to the recording industry to the world was we got post-war War II Do you know this about Hitler? This is actually a really funny. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Because it was huge to him. He famously believed and wrote about this in Mind Kemp that the best way to convince people of anything was the human voice, that the pure human voice was the best tool for influencing people. And at the time, the Brits were so confused. At the time, exactly, literally, he was ahead of the curve on that shit. He would have been a podcaster. Oh, my God.

Adolf Hitler, the world's first podcaster. Amazing. That's right. That's right. Yeah, you know, it's like the British were all baffled at the time, too, because like prior to this, like, basically they had magnetic wire recording and they had wax cylinders that they could record to, right? And it was basically one shot, one kill.

If you, like, if you messed up, it was over, right? But magnetic recording actually, and it was cleaner. It sounded way better. Like, in comparison to, like, the old vinyl that they had, like, it was way cleaner. It sounded more pure. And the Brits were like, how was this guy broadcasting from, like, eight different cities in absolute

clarity. They're so confused at the time. They have no idea what's going on. All because Hitler's over there with the only magnetic recorder that's in the entire world. Because it just turns out BASF, they're in Germany, which is still a company. Congratulations. You guys made it through the entire Nazi regime and all the backlash.

You know, hats off. So without Hitler and his magnetic recording, we would not have the music industry. There you go. The GIs brought it back in the 40s to America. We started tinkering with it. By late 50s, we have Les Paul and Bill Putnam, basically, like the gods of recording. Folks, if it hadn't been for Hitler, none of us would have been able to hear the Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones album about George Floyd. And what kind of America

would that be? I so desperately want to take the time. Five second story. I once went to a concert and you know the guy that dances on stage and that's his only job. Somebody threw a shoe and it hit him right in the fucking face and it took him completely out and they stop the concert and they were like, we're not going to play. And somebody goes, who cares? Wow. That's my favorite Mighty Mighty Bosswood story. All right.

So, sorry, I was on a little tangent there. Hitler gave us recording. But it's very new. Recording is very new, right? So the way that they record is changing by the day, right? It's like people are discovering new things. We go from a single track to record. to, to now we have two tracks and you can bounce back and forth, and now we have four tracks.

And then the next thing, you know, they've got a whole console that they've made that, you know, and these guys are literally building them themselves. Like Bill Putnam was like building, hand-building his own consoles and everything. And so they now have some technology. It opens up the world of recording. Prior to this, if you were a band, that was the only way to record music, right? You had to stand all around this horn and everybody, like, make their noise and whoever was like the loudest in the horn is the loudest. So you put the vocalist the closest and you put the drummer way the hell back and like, you know, you have to, it's complicated.

It's, it's, you're so concerned with just getting a recording that you don't have really time to think about the artistic direction of the recording. And so this moment in history, the late 50s, early 1960s, this is the moment that changes all of recorded music and why obviously I'm such a big fan of this. As someone who considers himself to be a stereo Phil Specter, you know, I, I absorb a lot of his music, and I think that this is, like, how I try and portray myself in a lot of this stuff. Without all the, you know, well, actually, we same number of ex-wives. That's great.

We have the same number of X-wives at three. We're crushing it. But without the other crimes. Without the other crimes. Yeah. All right. So, rather than treating musicians as equal, collaborator, Specter increasingly saw them as

interchangeable components in a larger sonic structure. If one player failed to achieve the desired result, another could replace them. If a vocalist lacked the emotional texture he wanted, he could manipulate arrangement, echo, orchestration, reverb, all these things to compensate. And it would later

evolve, sorry, go ahead. It seems like this is in a lot of ways the birth of the end of music transitioning away, popular music transitioning away from, these are people who like make something like art that they want to share with people to. This is a product and we can cut out pieces and slide in pieces wherever we need to. 100%.

This is absolutely the birth of that. This is the birth of like I am pitching this song to Ariana Grande because she might sing it great, but I don't care if Beyonce takes it. Let's get bidding on this music. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's no longer as much. I mean, I still think people put as much love and passion into their music as always.

We're going to say it's nothing but bad or whatever, but it's a big change. Yes, it is a very big change. Yeah. So Spector closely studied records that were experimenting with dense layering and orchestral pop arrangements, particularly productions that emphasized emotional saturation through instrumental doubling and echo chamber effects. Songs like Under the Boardwalk, you know that song? Under the Boardwalk. If you listen to something...

If you listen to that, you will absolutely hear what are the early... you know, phrases that Spector would draw from. It sounds basically like a Phil Spector song. It's got, you know, like the orchestration is buried in there. It's like, you know, the vocal is very upfront and everything, but everything else is kind of a mesh behind it. And it's not nearly, there's a lot of reverb and everything. It's not nearly as clean and clear as some of like,

because that was the goal, right? It was like, for so long they're like, we just want to make something that sounds good. And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, actually, we can make anything. So let's just make it sound crazy. Let's make it sound reverby. Let's do like experimentation with this stuff.

So he starts to get into that. What distinguished Spector was not necessarily that he invented these techniques, but that he became obsessed with expanding them to their absolute extreme. Where earlier producers used layering to enhance song, Spector began envisioning arrangements where individual instruments disappeared into a unified emotional mass. Precision gave way to density, clarity gave way to atmosphere. The recording was not meant to be dissoned.

It was meant to overwhelm you, right? And this is like the big principle of the wall of sound. Anybody who knows about Phil Specter, like, seriously knows about the Wall of Sound. The Wall of Sound was Phil Spector's creation in sorts. It's a way of recording that makes the music, like very Vagnarian, right? It's like a Wagner opera. It's a bunch of noise coming at you, right? And it is meant to overrunner.

You're often layers of percussion. It was all like layers of instrumentation. There'd be drummer on drummer on drummer, three piano players, like six guitarists. And this is such a big change because like I said, prior to this, it was like, well, you just put a band in a room and then you record the band, right? And so now it's all of a sudden like, I don't have to reproduce this on stage. It doesn't have to sound like this. I'm going to make this, I'm going to put 10 pianos on here. I'm going to go crazy with this shit, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I can do anything. Okay, I want 10 pianos then. Bring it 10 pianos. It's also like kind of that like era of like that starts there where it's like the money is actually in music where they're like, I need 10 pianos tonight. And like someone goes out and picks up 10 pianos. It's really amazing. Yeah, yeah.

So like this is also, yeah, kind of the birth of the insane expenditures for like crazy artistic wins aspect. It later transforms into a cocaine budget. But well, yeah. a little early. It's early for the cocaine budget, but it will eventually become a cocaine budget. Exciting.

So despite being signed to Lieber and Stoller, those two mentors that he had, he eventually becomes enamored with the co-founder of Atlantic Records, Amit Erdogan. And when given the opportunity to jump ship, he wasted no time, right? Libre and Stoller are pissed.

They're like, bro, what are you doing? Like, we gave you this opportunity. We tolerated your bitch ass. And you're just going to dip? Yes, we tolerated you. we let you come in. We put up with your ass. And he's like, actually, I was underage

when I signed your contract so it doesn't matter. You guys can't do shit. And he just walks out, right? And they're like, fair, that was true. We did, in fact, sign an underage person to a contract without having the proper legal authority.

So, whoops, we fucked up. So he becomes friends with Amit Erdogan. Erdogan recognizes his talent and he starts learning from him. He's just an old school record guy, right? And now, so Phil's now learning the business, right? This is, he was in the music thing, and now he's like, I'm going to learn the business. Phil would find some reasonable successes during this time, remaining under the tutelage of his friend Lester, Syl, the old World War II veteran.

But he would eventually desire more freedom to work as he pleased. And so he and Lester formed Phil S. Records, a portmanteau of their two names. I think that's the word portmanteau, right? Portmanteau, that's it. Yep. Thanks, nailed it. Look at me with a... You had it right, baby.

Look at it. I just guessed on that one. Thanks. He was slowly becoming the king of girl groups. It was actually around this time that he was dubbed the tycoon of teen, which sounds very questionable. I don't like that. Don't like that.

Nope. Viceral reaction. Yeah. So by the age of 21, he had become an undeniable force in the industry. He had produced a string of hits. I think he had like 21 top 10 singles in like. Jesus. Three years or something.

Yeah, it was like an insane amount. His first major success was Spanish Harlem, after his own. Spanish Harlem by Benny King. And then there's no one other like my baby by the crystals. He's a rebel by the crystals. Bobby Sox in the Blue Jeans had a song Zippity Doodah. Lots of crazy hits, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Crazy, crazy hits, right? Yeah. Here's a little piece, though. The crystals are sitting there. they recorded there's no one other like my baby he did well in the charts and then you know a few months later they're sitting there listening to the radio one afternoon and they hear a song come on and they're like oh this is cool this an interesting song and they get done and the radio announces all

and that was he's a rebel by the crystals and they're like wait what phil had begun recording songs and then releasing them as band songs without any of them having been on the song. He didn't, he didn't care. He was just like, they're all replaceable to me. You're all just, you're all just singers. I don't care about you at all, especially you're all female singers. You were all female singers.

I will just replace you. He never does this to a man, not in his entire career. Oh, my God. But to women, he does this. Be slightly less obvious though. Oh, the time. Be just like 2% less obvious, man. Oh, my God.

Christ. I would have punched him in this. I would have punched him in this face. I would have looked him at eye level and punched him in the face. Yes. I'm glad you bring that up. Oh, good. Because another tick in the fill is seriously like uncomfortable without his gun comes from the lead singer of the crystals.

And I forget her name. I'm sorry. I hack and a fraud just like you. So I forgot her name. but she tells a story in this documentary I watched where she's like, yeah, I saw that and I was like, okay, so she goes and she talks to this mobster that she knows,

and this mobster goes out and just beats the dog piss out of Phil. And it's like, if you ever do that. Thank you, Comrade mobster. Yeah. Hey, man, sometimes organized crime has his purpose. Let's be fair. You know? It's often more reliable than the government.

Wait, what was the name of the documentary? you were just talking about? This is from the agony and the ecstasy of Phil Specter. Okay. Cool. So he has a bunch of successes. Zippity-Doodah. Be My Baby with the Ronnettes.

You've lost that love and feeling with the righteous brothers. He is on top of the world. Yeah, Jesus. Yeah. Be my baby. He has... I was that one in an Uber last night, actually. Yeah, Be My Baby is on...

I have a vinyl. from the dirty dancing soundtrack, and it's on there. It's so good. Very funny story. Years later, Phil Spector, he was asked by Martin Scorsese to use Be My Baby for the opening of Cocaine Cowboy, I think it was.

Is that the one? Anyway, it's the opening of it, is Be My Baby. They do a whole thing, and he's asked, and he's like, no. And then they do it anyway. And he sees it, it comes out. John Lennon shows it to him, and he sees it, he comes out, and he's like, what the hell? I didn't tell him they could do that, you know?

And so he gets all mad. And then he sues him, of course, which, you know, is fair or whatever. That's fair. That's fair. You use a song without permission. That's fair. You sued him. But then he goes on for the rest of his life and tells everybody,

I made Scorsese without me. Yeah, okay. All right. That was a bit of a dick loo for a Martin. He tells everybody for the rest of his life. I don't think that's why. And that at the pinnacle of Phil's success is where we will leave this episode, Robert. How do you feel about Phil so far?

I mean, he's a little bit of a dick, but, you know, he's hit some bangers. He's hit some bangers. So far, he just sounds like an asshole who's really good at his job. I didn't know all that shit about his mom. Oh, wait, no, in a huge misogynist who screws over female artist systemically. I would have punched him in the wiener is what I'm saying. Again, it's like, if this was the end, right, you'd be like, yeah, I mean, not really bastard worthy. Like, he's, yeah.

Me, kind of a dick. He sucks. But there's no shortage of those people in the music industry, right? It's like there really is, yeah, there's no shortage of horrible people in the music industry. Like, I meet them all the time and then I'm like, cool, this is why I stopped working with labels. I'm going back to my studio. I'll see you later. Yeah.

But it is, there's a lot of them, right? And you know, it's tough too? For every awful person I meet in the music industry, I meet a legend that I'm like, you're the nicest person I've ever met. And like, how are you this good and this cool and this person not that good and way shitty? Like, I don't understand it. I'll never get it. There's a weird proportion in that stuff. Wild.

Robert, you can be found that I write okay. I can't thank you for leading me in. Yeah. I like to think of it more as like you telling your parents back in like the early 2000s why you can't move back home and why. you're having success in Los Angeles and you're like, I write, okay? It's just, yeah.

That's exactly how I read it too. It was like being exhaustive explaining what I do for a living. Right. I write. Okay. Yeah. It's just that. Go away.

I can be found at at Greasy Will. At Greasy Will music. You can just Google me. I'm like on the internet. I have a recording course. If you want to learn about how to record from a Grammy award-winning engineer, I have one. It can be found at greasyy does it.com

or you can just Google me or you can go to my... I'm on the internet, man. I'm on the internet. Like, it can't be that hard. He's out there. It's easy to find people. I feel like you guys will be fine tracking it. It's a Z.

It's not with an S. I get a lot of greasy whales and that kind of does make me mad. Different guy. Different guy. Different guy. I don't want to meet him. I mean, if you told this on the podcast, who gave you the name Greasy Will? Farrell.

It came from Farrell. Yeah, okay. Exactly. Yeah, it's very cool. It's fucking cool. Very cool. It was very cool. It's super cool.

You know? That's what I'm saying. This is the end of the episode, friends. We'll be back. We'll be back. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app,

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