Behind the Bastards - Part One: We Can't Put This Guy's Name In The Title But Trust Us, He Sucks

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

Robert sits down with Garrison Davis to discuss a mercenary hacking guru we dare not name in the title of this episode but, trust us, he sucks ass. (2 Part Series) Sources:  https://www.thedailybeast.com/who-is-killing-all-these-stories-about-rajat-khare-controversial-tech-mogul  https://archive.li/B1T2P  https://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/meet-rajat-khare-founder-of-luxembourg-based-boundary-holding-know-about-his-career-education-and-more/3230703/  https://medium.com/@rajatkhareiitdelhi01/rajat-khare-founder-of-boundary-holding-95461c91e1a3  https://medium.com/@rajatkhareiitdelhi01/rajat-khare-is-not-only-an-entrepreneur-or-a-venture-capitalist-but-also-a-yoga-practitioner-41227e54fc97  https://creativedestructionmedia.com/news/business/2022/11/15/executive-qa-with-rajat-khare-founder-of-boundary-holdings/  https://readersend.com/product/make-the-move/  https://ddosecrets.com/wiki/Appin_Uncensored  https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-pm-modis-sikh-separatist-fight-driven-by-security-politics-2023-12-07/  https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/06/india/india-canada-sikh-khalistan-analysis-intl-hnk/index.html  https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/2995/ice-paying-millions-surveillance-company-spy-peoples-communications  https://privacyinternational.org/long-read/2850/data-exploitation-and-democratic-societieso  https://archive.is/jz345#selection-749.0-761.198  https://archive.li/os0Cf  https://www.thedailybeast.com/metoo-media-assassins-clare-locke-still-repping-russian-oligarchs  https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/19/india-judge-reuters-story-00136339  https://freedom.press/news/global-censorship-campaign-raises-alarms/  https://www.reuters.com/article/blackberry-cyber-mercenary-hackers/mercenary-hacker-group-runs-rampant-in-middle-east-cybersecurity-research-shows-idUKL1N2GQ21K/  https://www.first.org/resources/papers/tallinn2019/Linking_South_Asian_cyber_espionnage_groups-to-publish.pdf  https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2022-11-05/inside-the-global-hack-for-hire-industry  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from Noble Blood, Haley Wood, or Stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast, and we're calling it Very Special Episodes. A Very Special Episode is stranger than fiction. It sounds like it should be the next season of True Detective. These Canadian cops trying to solve this mystery

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Euthanasia? Get it? Get it? Yeah. Wow. That's how we're opening the podcast. Dan will write when Garrison starts telling that joke. We're not going to explain why we were talking about Euthanasia. There's a good reason, but we had to cut it for legal reasons. Speaking of legal reasons, welcome to Behind the Bastards,

a podcast that might get sued for these episodes. That's why we brought on my buddy Garrett St. Davis. That's why I'm here and not a different guest. So we can keep the lawsuits in the family if we get in trouble for this one. You may have noticed dear listeners, beloved listeners, erotic companion listeners. Nope, shouldn't say that.

You may have noticed that the name of the bastard was not in the title of this episode. But there's a really good reason for that, because the guy we're talking about today is outrageously litigious and also incredibly wealthy. I don't know if he's a billionaire, but like crazy amount of money. He is a deeply, deeply secretive, wealthy Indian entrepreneur who is kind of the founder of India's hack for higher industry. So he is the guy who started India is now like possibly the largest company offering like shady and very much illegal hacking services To anyone who's willing to pay like mercenary hacker companies

And this is the guy who started it and by God does he love suing people? So we'll see how long these episodes stay up Garrison have you ever been sued? I? Don't think so No, no, no the answer is no. Good. Life experiences are always worth having. Sophie. Yeah. You'll be our legal counsel on this episode to see if we go too far. I'm legally not a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Close enough. So we're talking today, the guy we're talking about. I feel like I can safely say his name now. Probably not safely, but we'll see how long the episodes stay up. Rajat Kare. And yeah, so he is an interesting fellow. Most people probably have not heard of him,

but there are very few people alive who have done more to make it difficult to speak truth to power, to protest against the actions of a violent government, or to report on the wretched swine choking the arteries of our world with their greed. So, you know, he's an interesting, interesting fellow. It's kind of hard to tell where he comes from, probably born in Delhi. This is one of those I've mentioned a couple of times. I occasionally try to use different AI based search engines, largely out of desperation, because Google has gotten so much worse. So I try multiple things. And none of them are very good. A bunch of people were advising me to use Perplexity AI,

which is a search engine. And it told me this guy was like born and raised in the Netherlands. And also, yeah, it was just everything it said about this was wrong. Honestly, that is very aptly named for a for an AI search. Yeah, perplexing that it's so wrong. Now, to be fair, like, it wasn't worse than Google. It just didn't provide anything above like Google's shitty AI that summarizes things the wrong way. So hooray for the promise of AI, I suppose. So true. Yeah, I don't exactly know where this guy was raised. Probably Delhi. He definitely has spent and now lives in Europe.

So I think it's possible he spent some of his childhood in the Netherlands, but I simply haven't found any actual evidence of that. He avoids talking about himself to the media now. We'll talk about this a little later. He used to be a very public face within the Indian media. But a few years ago, he completely locked his shit down. Perplexity told me that he was born in June of 1993.

And this is quite simply not possible. No, he is not. Okay, okay. Sophie's gonna pull up a picture of this guy I found on the website, Leader Biography. And if this is a 33 year old man, they have been 33 hard years Sometimes your work kind of drains your soul a little bit. I don't know this

Yeah, I I've certainly seem like I I've certainly seen some like Nazis that I'm researching seen some Nazis that I'm researching who should not be nearly as looking as they are. But who's to say? Who's to say? Motherfucker aged like Charlie Kirk, if that's the case. Yeah, Garry, you're actually 55 years old, is that correct? That's right. Garry Garrison and Keanu went to school together. There's simply no way that this guy is just like 10 years older than me.

That's just not possible. No, no. There's no way this guy is two years younger than me Yeah, that is that is a man in his late 40s. I was gonna say early 40s Maybe or I was gonna say early 50s, but you know, I'll give him credit for one thing He's he's he works out those arms aren't looking bad, but his his face is a mess Those arms aren't looking bad, but his face is a mess. Wow, Robert, way to get us not sued. You can't sue for that, that's an opinion, you know? I'm allowed to think that a wealthy hacking mogul

has a butter face, you know, but his face, right? Can we say that? This is gonna be interesting defamation case here. Groundbreaking in a lot of ways. Your Honor, can you define butter face for the court? Objection, he corrected it to butter's face. So we're good. Okay.

So anyway, I don't know. I think his family were, if not rich, then extremely comfortable. It's a little hard to tell, but he definitely got some startup capital from somewhere. So probably he comes from kind of an upper class background around Delhi. He is, however, extremely smart. This is not one of those kids whose parents had to buy him into school. He scored 26 on India's joint entrance exam for the ITTs, which are their fancy technical colleges.

And that means that of all of the students trying to go to technical colleges in all of India, which you may recall is quite a large country. He was number 26 in scores. So this is a. So he's like really smart. He is actually very, very intelligent. Yes. Yeah.

That is like an outrageously good score. He's a bright dude. Nobody seems to. I haven't found anything that makes me not think that. And in fact, the degree of success he's had in hiding his background from the internet points to someone who is very diligent and quite intelligent. He goes to the Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi, which is called ITT, which I always

think about. There used to be a fake technical college called ITT Technical Institute in the US. It was one of those for-profit colleges that basically like stole money from its students. But no, this is a real school. I think it's basically the equivalent to India's MIT. It just unfortunately has the name of a fake American school. The website leader biography provides us with one of the most detailed sources on his early life, which says very little. We get about two sentences. It describes his first venture out of his like middle school, high school years this way. Kare initiated his education startup and has played a pivotal role in mentoring numerous

entrepreneurs. That's about all we get from his background. And that sounds pretty innocuous, right? Most of us are pretty critical at this show of startup culture, but an education startup, hey, that sounds like it could be fine, right? Sure, yeah. I love education. We love teaching. It also, it really depends, though, on what you're teaching people. The company that he found is called

Appen Learning Centers, APPIN. And they do indeed teach people. That is not all they do, but that is what they started doing, is providing technical education classes, right? And so those classes would include basic shit on like, here's how to code in various languages, here's how to do Excel shit, and classes on stuff like, here's how to defend your network, right? Here's like cybersecurity courses and whatnot. White hat

stuff to start, although that's not where it's going to end. So he found this company with a group of several of his friends. And the story of this is recounted in a book he wrote. I think this was his attempt at breaking into the hustle, grindset, motivation industry. It was called Make the Move, Demystifying Entrepreneurship. And as good as he must be at computers, he is not a great writer.

I'm going to read you an excerpt. Oh, I'm so excited. Entrepreneurship is nothing but following your heart and soul and making an effort to fulfill your dreams. When you decide to start your own company, when you decide to become the next Arnold Schwarzenegger or Shah Rukh Khan, who is a Bollywood actor and film producer, when you decide to become the next Miss India,

when you decide to become the next Sachin Tindukar, a cricket player, or Muhammad Ali, you become an entrepreneur. And I think that's interesting because none of the people he actually names are someone that a normal person would call an entrepreneur. Yeah, those are not like classic business entrepreneurs. Those are all like Hollywood celebrities or like Bollywood celebrities. I'm sure they all have because I'm sure Arnold's invested in businesses But oh yeah, I'm an entrepreneur He was the biggest movie star in the world and then they threw money at some ventures because he had a bunch

I'm sure the same is true of like Shah Rukh Khan So I don't know that I want to succeed in business. Yeah a massive man. Yes Be the biggest man who's ever lived Move to Los Angeles, California. Step three, Governor. That's right. That's right. Yeah, wild that that road eventually leads to him

being one of our least problematic politicians. One of the most reasonable Republicans in all whose ever held office. Wild story. But yeah, I think that's interesting. I don't think Miss India is traditionally someone you would call an entrepreneur. Muhammad Ali certainly isn't. Yeah, he went into business for himself beating the shit out of people.

Anyway, I find that funny. But I think this is actually kind of, there's something a little bit interesting here, which is all of these tech business entrepreneur people went through this period in the early 2000s where they were legitimately to a lot of people heroes, right? You think about like the glory days of Elon Musk's love affair in the media, right? Yeah, he's like having cameos and like Iron Man 3 or something, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tech entrepreneurs are building the future. They're super cool. They're basically

Tony Stark. And like we are no longer in that period of time. And I think what you kind of see here is him trying to be like, well, everybody just thinks entrepreneurs are ghouls, like sticking their dicks in anything that, you know, feels like it's got a little bit of fucking cash in it. So maybe if I try to tie them to people that like everyone likes, you know, movie stars and and and models and sports players and famous boxers and shit, then then it'll make us seem like less less

like monsters. I kind of think that's what he's doing. What year was this published? Oh, God, let me I can pull that up really quickly. Because if it's like around the early 2000s, that that is kind of peak like yeah, entrepreneurs as celebrity. We have like Trump's The Apprentice, you have Shark Tank, you have all of these things that are like pushing entrepreneurs

as their own form of celebrity. And having these two fields kind of be intermatched. Yeah, yeah, 2010. So that's right at the high point. That's right at the high point, yeah. We have like five different Steve Jobs movies coming out in theaters. Yeah. So nope, that actually that makes total sense. Anyway, a little later, he provides us with

an unsighted quote. Like he puts it in the book in quotation marks, like it's a quote from a famous person. But I can't find who it's from. And I think it's just him. And he just stuck it in there with that name on it. Got a bigger, bigger move kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of, the kind of But a little while later, he writes something that actually provides a little bit of insight. Your dream is your own and no one else's. And that's why when you decide to follow it, you will see it as a certainty while people around you might perceive it as a risk. And I can't, that is definitely how all of these guys think, right?

Like everyone else is weaker, they're less intelligent than me, they just see the danger. I'm the only one that sees the opportunity. And usually that's just because it's your opportunity and inviting in a horrible, horrible, horrible set of problems for everybody else, which is what this guy does, right? He runs a mercenary hacking business that makes him very rich and harms the entire rest of the world. So I'm not surprised everyone else sees the danger in his ideas. So I think this kind of gives you an accurate look at how these kind of guys see the world.

And there's another quote here. An entrepreneur sees his business as a game and money is just a way to keep score. That's the difference between the employee and the entrepreneurial way of thinking. Sure. Is that it? Is that it? I guess that is the only difference between being an employee and being an entrepreneur. I would say an employee sees money as a way to like keep himself and his family alive and

an entrepreneur sees money as a way to hurt people. But that's just based on what Rajat did. That's not necessarily fair to everybody, although maybe most of them. So the book contains very little of value biographically, other than some description of the social dynamics of Rajat's college friend group who helped him co-create his first business. It might say something about him that he does not start narrating the details of his own life until he starts his first business, right? That is like the first time he gets into anything about himself is when he founds this thing. We know nothing about his parents, nothing about his upbringing.

There's not like a moment where it's like, as a kid, this happened and it, you know, made me want to be an entrepreneur. So yeah, that's interesting. Here's how an article in Reuters describes the founding of his first business. Rajat Kare was a 20 year old computer science major when he and his friends came up with the idea of appen

over chicken pizza at a Domino's in New Delhi. It was December 2003, Kare had joined his high school buddies to catch up and bemoan the state of India's universities, which they thought weren't preparing students for the professional world. When one suggested organizing technology training workshops to supplement undergraduate education, people present at the meal said Kare jumped on the idea. Let's give the students what they want, he quoted himself as telling the group in a book on entrepreneurship. Let's start something that will not only change their lives but our lives too, forever. Okay, so what wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is 2003.

Yeah. So he's 10 years old. According to perplexity. He has this meaning when he's 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Which does mean that like, yeah, he was probably born in like 83. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Which I guess. But no, I would just like to imagine this 10 year old eating chicken and pizza being like, you know what I'm going to do? Start a business that changes everything. I'm going to be the biggest hacking entrepreneur the world's ever seen. So Rajat brings in his older brother Anoush, who lives in the United States at this point. He's working at a business he'd started.

I think you can kind of read between the lines. He's the guy who inspires Rajat's desire to be an entrepreneur. And they use his expert advice to start their first business, Appen. The book he wrote makes a claim that none of them had any relevant experience in business aside from Anush. But then claims they succeeded because Rajat had a brilliant idea that nobody else had ever had, which was to let his trainers develop their own training modules in addition to the programs offered by the company. This is what they describe as the idea that made app and take off, right? Because they do this, they suddenly have all these niche courses other companies just can't

compete with. And that's a great business move because you make the employees do more work. No, that is great. That's a, you know, Sophie and I have done something very similar with podcasts. So that is not actually what makes app and successful, or at least that's not what a Reuters article is what claims what makes Appen successful, or at least that's not what a Reuters article is what claims made Appen so successful. They seem to credit more to the decision Rajat Kare and his partners made to branch out from

like traditional technical training. Quote, Appen franchises would soon sprout across India, offering not just programming lessons but also courses on robotics and cybersecurity, nicknamed ethical hacking. By 2005, the company had an office in Western New Delhi. Rajat had been joined by his older brother, a motivational speaker who returned to India after a stint running a startup in Texas. As other members of the Domino's Group stepped away, the Kare Brothers took charge of the

fast-growing firm. By 2007, Appen opened a digital security consultancy helping Indian organizations protect themselves online. They soon drew the attention of the Indian government, officials who were still feeling their way through intelligence work in the internet age. To help the officials break into computers and emails, Appen set up a team of hackers out of a subsidiary called Appen Software Security Private, LTD, also known as the Appen Security Group, according to a former executive. Company communications, an ex-senior Indian intelligence

figure and promotional documents seen by Reuters. So this version of it is, it's not that they let their employees make modules. It's that they started offering these hacking courses, and they realized the Indian government didn't have that capability. So they said, hey, we'll help you break into the email accounts of dissidents. If you hire us and pay us, like you've got all these people

that not just the Chinese government, but all these kind of domestic movements that you consider to be enemies of the Indian state, give us money and we'll help you fuck with these people. And that is what really makes them take off, at least according to the reporting that I've read. Now, most APN employees are there to do training modules and different kind of corporate training things. These guys seem to have been unaware their company was now partnering with India's answer to the CIA.

The APN employees, the small number who are doing this incredibly profitable work, helping the government spy, are actually shipped to military safe houses and forced to sign NDAs. So this is all very secretive. Yes So this is all like very secretive. Yes, yes, very, very secretive. Two other people in the company

and two people within India as a whole. Makare as a spoiler, we'll have some quotes from his lawyer, claims he knew nothing about any of this, but he and his brother are the ones running the company. I kind of doubt they form an entire massive subsidiary doing hacking and don't know about it. They've like unaware of government contracts within your own firm that's providing special

secret hacking services. Where you're sending all of your best technical experts to go like live in safe houses like I didn't know. So they were asked these these employees that get sent to the safe houses are being asked to do the same kind of work that spooks always need done, cracking down on dissidents. One of their first jobs was to hack into the inboxes of separatists from Kalistan, a sea kevi region of the Punjab province. The hacker who broke into their inboxes described it as the experience of a lifetime.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's great. Cool stuff. So Kalistani separatists today are very serious business to the Hindu nationalist Modi regime. But this conflict has been raging well before Modi took office and started to centralize power. On June 23, 1985, Canadian Sikh separatists, born in India and then moved over to Canada, detonated a bomb in the cargo hold of an Air India flight from Calgary killing 329

people. I think this is the biggest terrorist attack in Canada. The deadliest attack in Canadian history. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a lot of people. And this attack kind of was the inciting incident of a broader insurgency over in India, tens of thousands of people die in this.

It is, I don't think most Americans or even Canadians know much about it, but this is a horribly, horribly bloody like brush fire war that like swarms up in India around this attack. Only one of the perpetrators is convicted. And in 2016, Canada released him because Canada, you know, Canada's legal system does stuff like that. This pisses off a lot of people, specifically a lot of Hindu nationalists, that this guy was not, you know, executed basically, right? After the 1990s, the separatist movement in Calistan mostly ran out of steam. You know, it is a violent enough thing that it kind of peters out. And it stops being something with significant on-the-ground action, right, at least based on the information that I have read. Despite the fact that the insurgency is kind of over, a lot of hardliners in the government can't get past this war on terror. I'm sure that's

something that's not hard to see, right? They never move past this ideologically, right? And so it leads to, up to the present day, a continuing obsessive focus on surveillance and sabotage of Sikh civil movements. And I'm going to quote from a different Reuters article here. Kanwar Paul Singh, political secretary of the Punjab-based Dal Khalsa group, which lobbies for a separate Kalistan, rejected links to drugs or crime. Modi's government is seeking to defame, isolate, and eliminate Sikh separatist leaders, he said. The policy is to call the dog mad and shoot him, he said. And that is, that is like how you'll hear Modi's attitude towards

like anytime they seek civil leaders advocating for any kind of autonomy, we want to get dirt on them, defame them, isolate them from support, and then eventually take them out, right? Either arrest them and prison them or fucking kill them. And they do kill a lot of Sikh leaders, right? We're about to talk to that here. That's what this is building towards. Aappen's hacking campaign is a crucial part of the program. It provides the Indian government with the dirt they need to defame these separatist leaders, which again is the first part of that defame, isolate, and eliminate strategy. Tensions were ratcheted up a notch after a 2021 protest against Indian agricultural reforms dominated by Sikh farmers. The campaign was so effective that it handed Modi's government a rare domestic defeat.

As a result, his government leaned hard on going after Canadian Sikh separatist Hadeep Singh Nijjar. And this is, you've probably heard about this, right? Nijjar is a guy that Delhi had designated a terrorist. They accused him of being part of this banned Sikh militant group that was trying to radicalize the Sikh community for another insurgency in Kalistan. Nijjar supporters say that is not at all what this guy was or what he was doing. This is again part of that attempt to discredit this leader. In June of 2023, Hardeep was shot dead outside of a Sikh temple in Suri, British Columbia.

The exact culprit has not been identified, but basically everyone knows this was a hit by Indian intelligence, right? This was India's answer to the CIA murdering a dissident in Canada. And this is not, you know, the end of that because late last year, like I think right about November, December, the Department of Justice in the US charged an Indian citizen in the United States with plotting to assassinate a different Sikh separatist leader and alleged that an Indian government official helped with the planning. Modi's government have said that they're looking into it. I'm sure they are. Yeah.

It is not clear to me. There are some connections and I can't say that they're 100% connections, but there are some connections between companies related to app in the hacking industry and the seek activists targeted in the US. I cannot say for sure whether or not hard deep was one of the activists that app and hacked, but he'd been in the game a long time. And I think it's very likely, right? And I do this to say like this is not just they're not just busting into people's emails for like political shit. They're busting into people's emails because that is part of how the Indian government kills these people, right? It is it is a three-step strategy and it starts with defamation and defamation starts with busting into their private communications

That is the kind of shit that appen is a part of and has been you know or was for quite some time, right? You could call them pretty fairly the black water of hacking. That is what the reporting from Reuters certainly makes it look like. And yeah, I'm going to quote again from that Reuters article. Chuck Randall was on the verge of unveiling an ambitious real estate deal he hoped would give his small Native American tribe a bigger cut of a potentially lucrative casino project, a well-timed leak derailed at all. In July of 2012, printed excerpts from Randall's private emails were hand-distributed across the Shinnecock Nation's Square Mile Reservation, a wooded peninsula hanging off the south fork of Long Island.

The five-page pamphlets detailed secret negotiations between Randall, his tribal government allies, and outside investors to wrest some of the profits from the tribe's then-partner in the gambling deal. They sparked an outroar. The pamphlets claimed Randall's plan would sell out the tribes, land, resources, and future revenues. Within days, four of Randall's allies

were voted out of tribal government. Randall, who held no formal position with the tribe, was ordered to cease acting on its behalf. And from what I can tell, it seems as if he was negotiating a deal that would have given the tribe a higher share of the profits from this casino deal. And some given the tribe a higher share of the profits from this casino deal. And some of the people who were outside of the tribe and felt like they were getting

cut out basically paid to have this guy hacked so that they could squash the deal and hopefully put together one that's going to be more financially advantageous to them. Now we're talking about a casino deal on Native American land. So there's a good chance that every side on this is shady, but it gives you an idea that's kind of the sweep of the different things app and is being used for everything from like helping the Indian government hunt down and kill dissidents to, oh, you're some like real estate baron who's having trouble in negotiations. You hire these guys to destroy an opponent of yours, right?

To like come up with information that you can turn against them. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because growing up in Canada, you actually see a lot of this sort of all this like defaming stuff that you're talking about also gets exported in Canada. Because there's a decent number of Sikh immigrants there. And there's a large amount of like, like anti-seek racism. And it's interesting how much of this stuff even carries over. So much that there's there's like, there's incidents of violence that are not even tied to the Indian government are just like regular acts of like racial violence that are being done by regular Canadians as well. And how much at least in terms of how successful

their whole operation has been into thinking that the Sikh people are like these hidden terrorists when actually they're like some of the most peaceful people in the entire country. Yeah, it's, and you know, there's a mix of like why Sikh folks get targeted at random and some of it comes down to just people who are racist against Muslims thinking they're Muslims.

That's happened in the US. But an awful lot of it is, as a result of this very successful decades-long propaganda campaign, the Indian government has been pushing against Sikh separatists to portray them as violent and terrorists. And that is especially effective against people who don't

really know what Sikhs are. But they'll imbibe some propaganda being pushed into some weird right-wing newspaper or whatnot by Modi's government. It's cool. It's really good that all of this is happening and that there's a company that you can hire to just break into people's private information and destroy their lives. But you know who else will break into people's private information? Is it the products and services that support this podcast? Do they have their own secret hacking group that is living in bunkers that as you listen to the podcast it downloads all the data from your phone

and uploads it onto a private server? Only if you click yes, you can store cookies. Okay, well that's why I always try to reject those if you click, yes, you can store cookies. Okay. Well, that's why I always try to reject those in the privacy preferences. Yeah. Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from Nobleblood, Haley Wood, or Stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast and we we're calling it very special episodes.

One week, we'll be on the case with special agents from NASA as they crack down on black market moon rocks. H. Ross Perot is on the other side and he goes, hello, Joe, how can I help you? I said, Mr. Perot, what we need is $5 million to get back a moon rock. Another week, we'll unravel a 90s Hollywood mystery. It sounds like it should be the next season

of True Detective or something. These Canadian cops trying to solve this 25-year-old mystery of who spiked the Chowder on the Titanic set. A very special episode is Stranger Than Fiction. It's normal people plop down in extraordinary circumstances. It's a story where you say this should be a movie. Listen to very special episodes on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Suzy Esmond. And I am Jeff Garland. Yes, you are. And we are the hosts of the history of Curb Your Enthusiasm podcast. We're gonna watch every single episode. It's 122, including the pilot,

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Do you have to do it in person? What's the deal? Not just on cable, you have to go in there. You see, human beings helped you. And then we're going to have behind the scenes information. Tidbits. Yes, tidbits is a great word. Anyway, we're both a wealth of knowledge about this show,

because we've been doing it for 23 years. So subscribe now and you could listen to the history of Kerber enthusiasm on iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you happen to get your podcasts. My name is Rachel and this is my new podcast, Rachel Goes Rogue. You think you know me because you've seen and heard the stories.

I was most recently involved in one of the biggest reality TV scandals, Coined Scandival. I'm ready to divulge the details and you may be shocked by what you hear. I'm here to tell my story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I've made some terrible decisions, that I continue to learn and grow. I've chosen to protect others by keeping secrets for far too long and I'm ready to come clean. I've taken some time away to reflect on my actions and I'm finally in a place where I can share what I've discovered about myself and some of the tools that I've learned. As I tell my story I will bring on guests who have knowledge and expertise on a variety of topics. Listen to Rachel Goes Rogue on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Ah, we're back. Having a good time. Having a good time. Never want to Ah, we're back. Having a good time, having a good time. Never wanna stop at all. So as a app and expands their business into acting as an all-purpose trigger man for shady companies, app and pitch documents bragged that the company was an expert in cyber spying,

email monitoring, cyber warfare, and social engineering. The phrase email monitoring is so funny because it's trying to be like cute and innocuous and you're like, no, it's like stealing all of your emails. No, it is. And by the way, this is illegal in India and illegal basically everywhere else. This is an illegal thing to do.

Lunder like international law, you're not allowed to operate a business that, now, when I say not allowed, I mean on paper you're not allowed. Obviously nobody's ever gone after these people. And one presentation from 2010, and again Reuters has their pitch decks and shit. So one presentation from 2010, the year that Rajit

wrote that book that we quoted from, Appen bragged about a case where, so their client suspected another company had stolen their code for a software store. So this is what Appen says that they did after that, right? So this company is like, hey, we think these guys stole code from us, go in there and see what you can find.

So Appen did this, quote, using social engineering method by posing as an investor company out of UK, which is one of our proxy companies registered in 2005, we were able to get a lot of information like pricing, features to strengthen the fact that an IP theft had actually taken place. We were able to then identify that of information, like pricing, features to strengthen the fact that an IP theft had actually taken place. We were able to then identify that the CEO

checked his emails on an iPhone and hence used a special technique to get access to his email. Using the email of the CEO, we got access to the software head and the sales head computers using a document exploit in our back door, which was sent to us by using CEO's email to them as an interesting read.

The computers though were behind Cisco IPs and in real time control of ours. The software sources customer lists and sales volume, which was later used by a client to help local law enforcement raise the rate, the facility of the suspect. So again, that's like a state level. Yeah. Operation. We've got like this fake company in the UK that we've been running for at this point half a decade. We use that to like make a fake sales call. We use that to find the CEO's email and we bust it into his email using an iPhone exploit

that we're keeping to ourselves. And then we use that to like social engineer our way through the whole company to get all of the evidence that we needed. And this is like a private company selling these services. Yes, yes, this is a private company selling these services to other private companies. And again, I started with the story of the Sikhs because that's like an objectively evil

thing. This case, infiltrating a company that's stolen, like, I don't care. Like I'm not, that's not, it doesn't sound like either side and this is like a good guy. These are two like ghoulish companies doing ghoulish things to each other. But it's worth documenting because what they did here, they can do to anyone, to any kind of organization. It shows you kind of the depth of capability that Appen had and that these other companies that have descended from Appen,

which we're building towards have. So that's great. Now, it is worth noting and also necessary for us to note for legal reasons that Rajat Kare's legal representatives have rejected any claims that he runs appens hack for hire business. The company definitely seems to have advertised that they've done a bunch of hacking for hire, and he and his brother ran the company, but Kare's lawyers claimed that he selflessly

dedicated himself to cyber defense and the prevention of hacking. According to Kare's lawyers, his only ambition was to run a simple tech training company that would educate people in cybersecurity, AI, and other sexy careers. But rogue actors who worked at Appens started running a hacking business without his knowledge, and he left the company to avoid tarnishing his name with such criminal behavior. That's one of the claims that Kare's representatives make, right? I have no idea there was hacking going on in our hacking company. Especially when they're being hired by governments

to do this, it's like, who is the government gonna reach out to? Are they gonna like? Yeah, like how do you successfully cordon off all of those resources and employees for a secret hacking business and not have the people running the company be aware of it. You could maybe do that in a company

that's absolutely, that's like really massive, but Appen is not. Like Appen is not the size of like Microsoft or whatever. Not that I think that's particularly likely to happen with a Microsoft, but at least you could have the argument of like, well, this is a trillion dollar company. We do a bunch of shit, the CEO's not aware of. That's, I just don't believe there's any way that's the case with Appen.

So Reuters showed Carey's representatives the Appen presentation that they had from 2010, which is during the period where Carey was with the company in which it advertised its hacking services. And Carey's lawyers called the document a forgery. Or they suggested it was doctored. Classic. Now, the legal firm that represents him is called Clare Lock.

And Clare Lock, they brag that like our job is getting stories killed, right? Like, that's one of the things that they advertise. Like, this is yet another shady company that like if you are if you are doing horrible things and people are writing news stories about them, Clare Lock's specialty isn't shutting that shit down. This is just like a Russian doll of shady companies that exist to help other shady companies. Yes, yes, it's the whole evil industrial complex, which is also just the only industrial complex. I'm going to quote again from that Reuters article.

Clair Locke added that Kare could not be held responsible for app and employees who went on to work as mercenary hackers, saying that doing so would be akin to holding Harvard University responsible for the terrorist bombings carried out by its former student Ted Kaczynski. Hey, hey, now there's an idea. Now there's an idea. Now a reasonable person might say, sure, you can't blame a company if their employees who later leave break the law after leaving. But if you as a company employed someone doing illegal hacking for money and then they kept

doing illegal hacking for money after they left, well that's kind of like if Harvard had given Ted Kaczynski a PhD in sending bombs through the mail. In which case I would say, yeah, they're probably culpable. We didn't know he'd use his mail bomb degree to mail bombs to people. We thought he was just an academic. Better known for his other work. Yeah.

Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Oh, Ted. No, it's like they had a whole secret division that had like secret housing for like, come on, come on. Come on, guys. Yeah, so to verify their reporting,

and this is kind of after all of the denies from Kare's law people, Reuters notes, quote, this report on app and draws on thousands of company emails, as well as financial records, presentations, photos, and instant messages from the firm. Reporters also reviewed case files from American, Norwegian, Dominican, and Swiss law enforcement, and interviewed dozens of former app and employees and hundreds of victims of India-based hackers.

Reuters gathered the material, which spans 2005 until earlier this year, from ex-employees, clients, and security professionals who've studied the company. Reuters verified the authenticity of the APN communications with 15 people, including private investigators who commissioned hacks and ex app and hackers themselves. The news agency also asked US cybersecurity firm Sentinel one to review the material for signs that it had been digitally altered. The firm said it found none. And like first off, that is as thorough as it gets. Yes, that's like looking over five years of data. And like that, that is how you do it. Yeah, that is extraordinarily rigorous. And

shit like this, by the way, the fact that large news agencies like Reuters can sometimes do work like this is why billionaires are actively working to buy up newspapers and gut them of staff, right? They don't like that this is a job that anybody does. No, and newspapers do not like publishing risky material. Like they would not have gone through with this unless it was like really, really verified. No, Reuters did what is the responsible thing to do when you are doing a story at this kind of risk. Is they, I will guarantee you,

there was a guy on that program whose whole job was to say, no, not enough, no, not enough, no, not enough, no, not enough until they had an overwhelming degree of verification, which is what they had. Speaking of overwhelming, I'm overwhelmed by the deals that our sponsors are offering to our listeners. Overwhelmed, and I'm going to be honest, this is the first time I've ever experienced love. So why don't you listen to these ads and experience love for the first time too?

Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. these ads and experience love for the first time too. Hey, this is Dana Sports. You may know my voice from Nobleblood, Haley Wood or Stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast and we're calling it very special episodes. One week we'll be on the case with special agents from NASA as they crack down on black market moon rocks. H Ross prose on the other side and he goes, hello, Joe, how can I help you? I said, Mr. Perot, what we need is $5 million to get back a moon rock.

Another week, we'll unravel a 90s Hollywood mystery. It sounds like it should be the next season of True Detective or something. These Canadian cops trying to solve this 25-year-old mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set. A very special episode is stranger than fiction. It's normal people plop down in extraordinary circumstances. It's a story where you say this should be a movie.

Listen to very special episodes on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And by the way, most of these episodes I have not seen for 20 years. Yeah, me too. We're gonna have guest stars and people that are very important to the show, like Larry David. I did once try and stop a woman who was about to get hit by a car. I screamed out, watch out! And she said, don't you tell me what to do! And Cheryl Hines. Why can't you just lighten up and have a good time?

And Richard Lewis. How am I gonna tell him I'm gonna leave now? Can you do it on the phone? Do you have to do it in person? What's the deal? Not just on cable. You have to go in Asia. Human beings helped you.

And then we're gonna have behind the scenes information. Tidbits. Yes, tidbits is a great word. Anyway, we're both a wealth of knowledge about this show because we've been doing it for 23 years. So subscribe now and you could listen to the history of Kerber enthusiasm on iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you happen to get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Jackie Goldschneider from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. I joined the show in season nine. And I'm Jennifer Fessler also from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. I joined the show in season 13. And we host the new podcast, Two Jersey Jays.

You know us from the Real Housewives of New Jersey, and now you'll really get to know us. We're going to tell you probably more than you want to know. We are going to have lots of fun on this podcast while we discuss what it's really like to be a real housewife and all the drama that comes with it. Follow us as we navigate family, friendships, and even her enemies. And we're going to be brutally honest about motherhood, men menopause, and making every day count. Listen to Jersey Jays on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or every listen to podcasts.

We're back! So in 2009, App & Bra bragged that their products were in heavy use by Indian security agencies. Their revenues were something like a million dollars and they bragged to investors that they felt like they could be making 10 times that much in three years. And this is like the Appen security chunk, right? Appen's hopes in 2009 of a future of cushy government contracts crushing dissidents. We're like, you know, that's clearly where they saw things going, right? Like the first six years or so that we've been doing this, it's gone really well. This is what we're going to expand to doing. This is going to be like a huge amount of money in the future. In 2010, they're advertising to

corporations though, they're not advertising to governments. So why did that happen? How did they go from, we are the Indian security agencies, like number one hack for hire group two, we are selling our talents to like, literally the highest bidders in corporate America. Well, that change happened because it came out that a number of highly placed app and employees

were double dipping to the Indian security agencies. Basically, one agency, India's equivalent to the CIA would hire them to look into a group, right? And they would break into a bunch of shit. They'd get a bunch of data. They'd give it to the agency that hired them, and then they would reach out to India's equivalent of the FBI or whatever, state security agency for like a province and be like, hey, we got this info. Do you want to buy it? Okay. Yeah. That's pretty cool.

That's pretty fun. That's pretty fun. That's dope. That's funny. That is funny. That is a great scam. Yeah. It was a great scam for a while. I think it was like a corruption thing too, where like individual employees are making

extra money, not necessarily app in itself, at least based on the way it's framed. It doesn't sound like a sustainable scam. No, no, it's not. And eventually, one thing state security agencies don't like is being fucked with by contractors. So when this all comes out, it costs app and security services or whatever, a bunch of their state security contracts, which is why they move to advertising their shady deeds

to private companies, right? That's why in 2010, they're giving presentations to random corporations. Over the next decade or so, app and hackers targeted numerous clients for corporate customers. Their intrusion attempts racked up tens of thousands of targets on Gmail alone.

A Google representative told Reuters that the search engine company had to change their protocols to deal just with app and attacks. That was such a significant portion of all Gmail-related hacks that they had to institute specific protocols for dealing with app and hacks. Now, Kare claims that he left app in 2012, which is both well after its shadiest period of time, but also, as we'll cover, there's good reason to believe that he may not have actually left in 2012. Again, he claims that he had nothing to do with any of the shady

spearfishing, hacking, illegal intel gathering by his company. But a New Yorker investigation in June of 2023 turned up some interesting information. It started in the summer of 2020, when the world was more on fire than it normally is in the US, but less on fire than it is now in the summer of 2020, when the world was more on fire than it normally is in the US, but less on fire than it is now in a lot of the rest of the world. Citizen Lab, a Toronto-based research center that does pretty cool shit, like look into private spy agencies and try to thwart them, got a call from a private investigator in Geneva named Jonas Ray. And nearly all of the private investigators we're going to talk about in this story are the bad guys, but Jonas Ray in this case is not the bad guy. He had been retained by a

British law firm representing an Iranian American whose email had been hacked. This Iranian American, Farhad Azima, was an airline operator who spoke to a reporter for a detailed piece on Iranian actions to avoid US sanctions. After speaking out about this, he was, his shit got hacked, right? And he believed that the Iranian government had like hired hackers to get into his email. Azima was at the time embroiled in a lawsuit with a guy named Raz al-Qaima, an investment authority in the UAE. It's sovereign wealth fund, basically, right?

That's what Raz al-Qaima is. And he's in this lawsuit with them. And right as this case is kind of going to trial, somebody dumps batches of his emails onto the internet publicly. Now, obviously, you cannot illegally hack someone and then introduce the emails that you get into court proceedings, because you have committed a crime to get those emails. But if somebody hacks the guy you're in a lawsuit with emails and then puts them up publicly on the internet for everyone to read, there's nothing... Then it's just like a leaked... Yeah, it's just leaked emails that are publicly accessible.

And that's exactly how this gets played. A PR consultant working for his opposition in the case just happened to find where the emails were published online. The court agreed to admit them into evidence and Azima lost his case. This shows the way in which a lot of this ill-gotten information is actually used. The open internet provides numerous opportunities for the companies stealing this stuff to go, hey, we weren't given anything illegally, somebody else hacked it and put it up online, and it's not illegal to read something and introduce it to court, right? Obviously that is not exactly what happened. Citizen Lab eventually concluded after a lengthy investigation

that the hack had been plotted out by a new deli-based company called Bell Trox. And it is very frustratingly supposed. Capital B, ELL, capital T, R-O, capital X, I hate it. Bell Trox. Bell Trox. Multiple other Americans were similarly compromised. I know, it's frustrating. This company is found by Citizen Lab to have hacked not just this Iranian American, but a bunch

of other American citizens. And their preferred method is spearfishing. They send trap emails that are meant to get users to give up private data. Reporting on Beltrox wound up exposing a significant web of wrongdoing, but it also got Citizen Lab looking into the Indian hacker for hire industry, which in the decade since Appen had started dipping their toes into those waters, had become the world industry leader, or at least tied with Israel. One of these days, we'll do an episode on Israel's hack for hire industry. Those are the two big players. It's like Israel and it's India. I think you could view like the Indian companies as the kind of more accessible, whereas the Israeli companies tend to

take more of a premium in terms of like how much it costs to utilize their services. They're the people's shady mercenary hacker organization is what I'm saying. Isn't that so charming. Yeah, it's nice. I love supporting the little guy. Yeah, yeah, small businesses. That's really what makes this country great, or that country great, any country great. So Ray became that PI who reaches out to Citizen Lab, became aware that like there was this

huge Indian shady hacking industry going on when he starts looking into the hack on behalf of the law firm that was retained by that Iranian American dude. And Ray tells the New Yorker that when he starts looking into this, he starts finding out about Bell Trox and like reading about all these other little like these hacks done by these Indian intelligence firms. He recalls something that had happened to him about a decade earlier. He had been told by some friends in private intelligence firms in Europe that they had been approached by a wealthy Indian founder named Rajat Kare. Ray claims, from what I

learned in this investigation, he emailed everybody. Brandishing a deck of slides similar, in fact, the very same ones that Reuters was given, he described Appen's business model as ethical hacking. His tagline was that Appen could give you, quote, information that you imagine and also that you didn't imagine. Again, the guy is not a very good writer. But the pamphlet promised customers, get remote access to email, computers, websites, devices which are not accessible, collect confidential information, evidences, and give your customers real satisfaction.

I like how much of this is just like boring corporate language mixed in with like a major crimes. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very serious criminal behavior. Give your customer satisfaction. Yeah. This stolen data. Yeah. And it's, it's fun because like he's, he talks a lot like up to this point. All of his claims had been like,

I had nothing to do with this. If there was hacking at my company, I didn't know about it. I've always been just pro-cyber security. And then this PI comes out and is like, oh, I've heard about this dude. He was going all around Europe. He had this pitch deck. Here's the pitch deck.

Like, this is what he was going around personally offering to companies, an illegal hack for hire boutique business. No, it's like there's a guy in a suit going door to door being like, hey, do you want to break into your neighbor's house? Well, hire me. We'll tie up all the kids, open up the safe,

give you all of the hidden documents. Customer satisfaction guaranteed. And it is just that illegal. I'm going to continue from that New Yorker article. Everyone's hackable, one slide promised. I know, my God. The company charged $2,500 for a month of work by a single hacker, which is a bargain. That actually is an amazing deal.

Oh, my God. And the presentation said that it had taken less than two weeks for Appenture to obtain confidential emails and photographs confirming a husband's suspicion that his wife had cheated on him. Even though this is a quote from the pitch deck, even though she was using an updated Norton 360 antivirus. This is all, I mean, this is obviously like bad, but this is also quite funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, there's some horrible cases here, but a lot of them are just like, well, everybody sucks. Some guy just paid $3,000 to look at his wife's emails like, come on. What a loser.

Yeah, that is sad. Other cases were more complicated. The company said that it had taken 47 days to unearth evidence of money laundering and criminal contacts from the email account of a chief executive in Russia. And I'm going to be honest, that makes me think they're not great because it shouldn't take you 47 days to find out a Russian CEO was doing money laundering. That's like, that's like 10 minutes. That's like an afternoon.

Yeah, maybe a long afternoon at worst. Carrey's lawyer said when, when the New Yorker was like, hey, so we have people saying you gave this presentation. And Kare's lawyer said that he didn't remember the presentation and also that he only ever talked about ethical hacking and the presentations that he did give. So that seems pretty cool. Yieldy, I do not recall strategy.

Yeah, the old Bill Clinton. Speaking of Bill Clinton, Garrison, this is the end of the episode. Just like how Bill Clinton's presidency is also ended. Yes, it did. It ended quite a while ago before you were born. So you you lost out on a lot of great jokes. We've established that Garrison is actually 55 years old. So you were fine. Yeah. Okay. So you were around for all of those wonderful cigar-based comments from our nation's comedy press corps. It was good. Yeah, you know me. I love cigars.

That was how I learned what oral sex was. That's funny. That's funny. I like several million other American children had to be like, what's a blow job? Because it suddenly became something that was on the news. That is, by the way, and they're not entirely wrong for being pissed. Why, a lot of people hate Bill Clinton because they suddenly had to talk to their kids about oral sex. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's like, that's like a significant portion of the population. Well, like, you know, at least some kids were given proper sex

head, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. In case the president tries to fuck you. But that's only gotten more relevant as time has gone on. Yeah, especially with old sniffing Joe. Old sniffing Joe and old Epstein plain Donald Trump. I love presidents. Oh, don't forget Epstein Plain Bill Clinton. And Epstein Plain Bill Clinton. It really makes you respect a man like George W. Bush who just killed a million people. Morally pure, morally pure. Garrison, do you have anything you'd like to plug for us?

Sure, I just spent a long time watching a whole bunch of Daily Wire Plus exclusive content to write about their two newly launched streaming services. So that is a three-part episode series on it could happen here. So if you want to hear about Bent Key and Jeremy Boring's new Snow White movie and the Daily Wire Plus hit basketball comedy Lady Ballers, I wrote way too many words about it over on the It Could

Happen Here feed. Hell yeah. Well, check out Garrison's work on It Could Happen Here, and I promise we'll find another horrible thing to make them watch. Speaking of horrible things to watch, I guess I don't have anything to say here. Good night! Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media. For more from CoolZone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from Nobleblood, Haley Wood, or Stealing Superman. I'm hosting a new podcast, and we're calling it Very Special Episodes. A Very Special Episode is stranger than fiction. I sound like it should be the next season

of True Detective, these Canadian cops trying to solve this mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set. Listen to very special episodes on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Susie Esmond and Jeff Garland. I'm here. And we are the hosts of the history to get your podcasts. including Larry David and Cheryl Pines, Richard Lewis, Bob Oatenkirk and so many more, and we're gonna have clips, and it's just gonna be a lot of fun.

So listen to the history of curfew enthusiasm on iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you happen to get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Jackie Goldschneider from the Real Housewives of New Jersey, and I'm Jennifer Fessler, also from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. Welcome to our new podcast,

Two Jersey Jays. We are going to have lots of fun on this podcast while we discuss what it's really like to be a real housewife and all the drama that comes with it. Follow us as we navigate family, friendships, and even our enemies. Listen to Two Jersey Jays on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.