Behind the Bastards - Part Three: George Lincoln Rockwell: The Most Racist American in History

Episode Date: March 14, 2019

In Part Three, Robert is joined again by Katy Stoll and Cody Johnston to discuss George Lincoln Rockwell and how his ideas have gone on to have influence every level of the radical-right wing ecosystem. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations. In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests. It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse look like a lot of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science?

And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price? Two death sentences in a life without parole. My youngest? I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What? I don't have an intro, my audience, because we are like two hours in change into talking about George Lincoln Rockwell. And I'm just broken as a man. You're a little beat. I have to fix myself somehow. I have to get myself back in the fight.

I think this cathartic release of pent-up information and frustration will be good. You know what else might be good? You know what might get me back on track so we can do this last part? Oh, and I picked a particularly savory looking one. My mouth just started to salivate. That's got flavor on it, man. That is dusted. That is the flavor. Cut your tongue up.

I could taste that. Now I'm jealous. You can have a Dorito. As many as you want. One bite, one cream. There are so many Doritos. You have to listen to the last one to know. Let's see, okay? But you should be listening to three without two. No, I don't listen to part three.

Oh, Katie, that was a perfect crunch. I do apologize to Molly and my other listeners who hate the sound of crunching Doritos. There's a specific person who's like, I don't like when you crunch Doritos. She's great. But yeah, she doesn't like the sound of crunching Doritos. Sorry, Molly. All right, we're done with the crunching of Doritos. One crunch, one cream.

One crunch, one cream. One crunch, one cream. I do keep singing it in my head to different tones, but I'm not going to do that to you guys. One crunch, one cream. Ew, ew, cut that. I crunch and cream in the night so I can't, so I can't. I'm so sorry. I brought this on to the bed.

I'm tremendously sorry. This is terrible. It's still, this cream which needs to be refrigerated is still on the table. It's still there. It was behind the sink like it was soap. So I brought it in. I do wash my hands with hazelnut cream. All right, today's episode of Behind the Bad, which I did not even introduce.

That is what we're doing right now. You know where you are. This is a podcast where we talk about terrible people and we're talking about one of the worst that there's ever been. So bad. The fucking JRR token of racism. What's another foundational? The Bill Gates of also racism.

The Steve Jobs of American fascism. I'm sorry, you mean Steve Apple. Steve Apple. George Lincoln Rockwell. Now, in episode one and two, we talked about Rockwell's life, his stunning variety of innovations, which we're not at the bottom of yet. I wanted to be at the bottom. You really want to be at the bottom.

And of course, we talked about his death where he was murdered by one of his followers who went on to become not a Nazi. And his classically handsome bone structure. And his classically handsome bone structure. We don't hate his bone structure. No, no, no. Taller than Hitler too, which is important for America. It would be amazing if you transplanted Hitler in America.

The only reason he wouldn't take off is that he's too short. I mean, it's a thing. Germans are just not shallow enough to know we can embrace a short fascist. I love embracing that slogan, but for me. Taller than Hitler. Today, we're talking about Rockwell's legacy. In addition to obviously the legacy of trolling college campuses for donations, Holocaust denial, neo-Nazism, we're talking about a much more complex and bloody legacy.

A legacy that ties in literally every act of far-right violent terror you have heard about in your entire lives. The Aldousen from GLR. In the early 1980s, a far-right radical named Robert J. Matthews created what he called an action group. Its original name was The Organization, but eventually he settled on calling it The Order. He recruited a small squad of other... Oh, just wait. It's even loser-y than you understand right now. He recruited a small squad of other like-minded men. The Order was a fascist white supremacist terror group.

Its goal was to destabilize the fabric of American society through violent attacks. The Order funded its operations by robbing banks and armored cars. They carried out three murders, including the highly publicized assassination of Jewish American radio host Alan Berg in 1984. The Order was eventually infiltrated and wiped out by the FBI. Matthews died fighting after a 36-hour-long standoff. While they did not succeed at destroying the fabric of American society, the Order did steal millions of dollars, at least a million of which was never recovered by the authorities, and probably went on to finance further fascist terror.

13 white supremacist leaders were prosecuted for taking Matthews money, so it's anyone's guess as to how many other violent racists he funded. They committed like 20-something robberies that were successful. Robert met Jay Matthews, never met George Lincoln Rockwell, but the commander had a strong impact on his life nonetheless. This was thanks to a book, The Turner Diaries, written by William Luther Pierce. Pierce had started life in 1933 as a quiet kind of geeky kid. He later described himself as sort of a nerdy kid without social skills.

He was awkward around girls and obsessed with science fiction. When he grew up, he became a pretty good physicist. All right. Pierce became aware of Rockwell in 1963 when he saw the commander on TV addressing a crowd of protesters. According to one of Pierce's coworkers, who was interviewed later by the FBI, quote, he was looking for a simple solution to the problems of the world. That's he is and provides that.

Simple solutions to complex problems. Just blame it all on the people with three little things around their names. Yeah, yeah. There is a report, The Turner Legacy, published by the International Center for Counterterrorism. Here's how it summarizes the path of Pierce's radicalization. Quote, You can do nothing until you've reached the masses, Rockwell explained in an interview. In order to reach them without money, without status, without a public platform,

you have to become a dramatic figure. Intrigued, Pierce wrote a letter to Rockwell, and they struck up a correspondence. In 1965, Pierce moved from academia to work with a defense contractor in Connecticut, and he began driving on weekends to the Washington, D.C. area where Rockwell was based. He also spent time at the Yale University Library, reading alarmist books about racial trends, many dating back to the 1920s and 30s. As his relationship with Rockwell was blooming, Pierce was granted a secret government clearance through his job, although he never worked on a classified project.

He rarely displayed his racism to coworkers. When the FBI opened an investigation of Rockwell's American Nazi party, agents spoke to his former colleagues. Many found him distant and impenetrable, and expressed their intense dislike of him as a person. Nevertheless, they conceded. He was a first-class physicist. It's just science. It's just science. In 1966, Pierce was responsible for launching National Socialist World,

a quarterly journal of all things Nazi. The NSW eventually attracted more than a thousand subscribers. It was one of Rockwell's A&P's few profitable endeavors. After Rockwell's assassination, Pierce went on to found a group called the National Alliance, but his true love was writing unspeakably racist fiction. In 1978, he published his opus, The Turner Diaries. Pierce imagined a near future world in 1991, when a new American government called the System enforced racial integration.

Since Pierce was a Nazi, he imagined the system as run by Jewish people with black people as their enforcers. The system, in The Turner Diaries, is portrayed as the ultimate far-right fantasy of a far-left government. Tax breaks for mixed-race couples, their appeal of rape laws because they're seen as affronts to race and gender equality, and of course, gun confiscation. The book is written as a series of diary entries from a man, Earl Turner, who joins a terrorist group called the Order and takes part in a violent revolution to conquer the United States for white people.

The Order funded itself through bank and armored car robberies. They assassinated left-wing and Jewish politicians and media personalities and bombed government buildings. This eventually sparked a gigantic race war leading to a global genocide of all non-white peoples and the establishment of a Caucasoid utopia. This was the happy ending of the book? Yeah, that's the happy ending of the book.

It's not explicitly Nazi through most of it, but at the end, they refer to something happening as being 130 years after the birth of the great one, which is, of course, Adolf Hitler. Yeah, he's a nerd. Self-admitted, a sci-fi nerd who was bad with women who went on to write racist science fiction fantasy. Yeah, you're a Nazi nerd. Yeah, weird how that keeps happening.

Despite its terrible plot... Just a nice guy. Just a nice guy. Girls don't like me. Physics. Nothing's wrong with physics. Despite its terrible plot, absurd racism, and clunky style, the Turner Diaries include some pretty apt observances about the nature of terrorism. In one passage, Turner notes that the system furthers its own destruction

by reacting to the order's terrorism by instituting emergency powers and clamping down on individual liberties. Turner also discusses the idea of propaganda of the deed, which started with anarchists in like the 1800s and is why President McKinley did not finish his term. The organization prioritizes attacks that do economic damage, like bank robbery, because those things make middle-class white people the most frightened and uncomfortable.

Quote, What is really precious to the average American is not his freedom or his honor or the future of his race, but his paycheck. He complained when the system began busing his kids to black schools 20 years ago, but he was allowed to keep his station wagon and his fiberglass speedboat, so he didn't fight. Not surprisingly, the Turner Diaries was Robert Matthews' favorite book. It directly inspired the creation of his own The Order.

The Turner Diaries was required reading among the terrorists Matthew recruited. According to the Turner legacy, quote, When he recruited a former Klansman, Thomas Martinez, into the group, he did so by handing over a copy of Turner, one of the scores that he kept in storage. Members of the group referred to the book as their Bible. Tom, in there is what the future will be, Matthews told Martinez,

You must read it, you must. Bet it doesn't go much further than that. We're done, right? We're done. That's it. Thanks for the episode. If you guys want to throw in your Twitter's and plugables. Let's read the next paragraph, see if there's anything else.

During his time in the A&P, Pierce had come to believe that the showy displays of white nationalism, the swastikas and clan robes that invoke, alienated what he called normal people. Near the end of his life, Rockwell had been making the exact same moves, engaging in a process of denazification to try and appeal to more mainstream white people. The normies, they might call them normies.

They might call them, trying to red pill them, about white power. Obviously, the Turner Diaries did not have that much more mainstream appeal than Rockwell's A&P, but it did succeed in appealing to a broader base of radicals than, say, Stormtrooper Magazine. One of those radicals was a young man named Timothy McVeigh. The Turner Diaries was Timothy McVeigh's very favorite book.

Now, McVeigh was not an ideological racist first and foremost. He definitely ran with and was associated with some racist groups, but he was more of an anti-government pro-gun nut than, like, a specific Nazi nut or anything like that. And he was, of course, a lone wolf. But he did hate the government. He viewed it as a nightmarish monster, bent on stamping out all human liberty,

and he saw the Turner Diaries as an entertaining blueprint for how that monster might be killed. The structure of McVeigh's attack on the Murray Building in Oklahoma City was directly inspired by a passage from the Turner Diaries. At one point, Earl Sell bombs the FBI headquarters, which is, of course, the first place that Timothy McVeigh thought about bombing before he decided the Murray Building would be easier. Pierce goes into exhaustive detail about the bomb that they used to blow up the FBI building,

a truck bomb made with 4,400 pounds of ammonium nitrate, and essentially the same device McVeigh constructed and used to destroy the Murray Building. On the day McVeigh detonated his bomb, killing 168 people, he put together a manifesto in an envelope in his car and included many photocopied pages of the Turner Diaries. McVeigh had highlighted one passage in particular from a chunk of the book where Earl Turner's cell cares out a mortar attack on Washington, D.C. Quote,

The real value of our attacks today lies in the psychological impact, not in the immediate casualties. More important, though, is what we taught the politicians and the bureaucrats. They learned this afternoon that not one of them is beyond our reach. They can huddle behind barbed wire and tanks in the city, and they can hide behind the concrete walls of their country's states, but we can still find them and kill them. That's what McVeigh highlighted after blowing up the Oklahoma City bombing, which included a daycareful of babies.

Weird way to read that line, but... You know, we all know our interpretation of the words we read, and we all have different reactions to art. That's a gracious interpretation of the Turner Diaries. Trying to go on an art day. In 1994, a year before McVeigh's attack, the Aryan Republican Army carried out a series of bank robberies, inspired by both Matthew's Reel the Order and the Order from Pierce's book.

Some of those people were later linked to the Oklahoma City bombing. The ARA put out a two-hour video statement at one point that urged people to read the Turner Diaries. They also stand hard for Christian identity, which is an incredibly important ideological movement that's also tied in all of this, and that we'll get into more in the audiobook that I'm putting together. We'll talk about that sometime in the end, too. The Aryan Republican Army carried out 22 robberies in seven states before the FBI took them down.

They were succeeded by another terrorist group, the Aryan People's Republic, who carried out a murder, bombing, and robbery campaign in 1997 that killed five and ended in a massive police shootout. Both groups were, of course, directly inspired by the Turner Diaries. On April 12, 1997, Larry Wayne Schumach of Jackson, Mississippi, shot 11 black people, killing one. When interviewed later, his friends and family all said he'd undergone a sudden shift towards violent radicalism after reading The Turner Diaries.

I'm sensing a through line here. There might be one there. You might be reading into things a little bit. Yeah, you sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'm just acknowledging a pattern. In 1998, three white dudes in Jasper, Texas, chained a black man to the back of their pickup truck and dragged him down the road, horrifically torturing and killing him. One of the men gave this statement to the police.

We're starting The Turner Diaries early. That is technically incorrect because The Turner Diaries was set in 1991. But, you know, racist in that. I feel like that's going to change his mind. We're finally starting The Turner Diaries. That would have been the right way for this murder. Actually, technically. That would have been one of the cops who read The Turner Diaries.

In 1999, David Copeland, a British man, set off several shrapnel bombs in London. His targets were black and gay people. He killed three and injured 140. In his confession to the police, Copeland said, If you've read The Turner Diaries, you know in the year 2000, there will be the uprising and all that racial violence on the streets. My aim was political.

It was to cause a racial war in this country. Year 2000? The list goes on and on and on and on. There have been fatal attacks in Germany, Ukraine, and many, many more attacks in the United States by people who claim The Turner Diaries is their direct inspiration. As of 2016, the book has been tied to more than 200 murders and dozens upon dozens of separate attacks and foiled attacks.

Christopher Hassan, the Coast Guard Lieutenant who was caught in 2019 before he would carry out his planned massacre, was a huge fan of The Turner Diaries. William Pierce died in 2002 of being an old-ass piece of shit. Before he died, though, he gave interviews to a biographer. In those, he was questioned about some of the attacks his book had inspired. When he was asked about Robert Matthews, founder of The Order, he said this,

Bob was a very intense young man and quite different from the weaklings I see so many of in America today. Bob was obviously very much taken with The Turner Diaries and it was clear he drew a lot of the elements from the book and the way he did things and the terminology he used, and so on. And so forth.

That's not it. Another legacy went on to note, was the inspiration for Oklahoma City, Pierce argued. Not his book. They both were. Yeah, I've read your book, man. He used the same bomb that you described in loving detail. You did just say he had the highlighted pages, right?

In his manifesto after the bombing. I don't know, that seems like a pretty clear link. It seems like Big Faye said they were tied. Well, maybe the blatant racist isn't great on understanding evidence. Well, that seems weird. We could talk about William Pierce and The Turner Diaries all day. You'll get more on that in the audiobook thing that I'm shamelessly plugging still.

Shamelessly. But this episode is above all else about George Lincoln Rockwell's intellectual legacy and that legacy is a lot bigger than the trail of blood Bill Pierce left behind. James Nolan Mason was born in 1952. He grew up in Chillicothe, Ohio and like William Pierce,

he saw lurid news coverage of Rockwell's rallies and speeches. Mason became enthralled with the idea of the American Fuhrer. At age 14, he started sending him letters. Rockwell wrote back and Mason became a member of the A&P Youth Organization. When he turned 18, he was inducted as a full stormtrooper. After Rockwell died, Mason moved on to the National Socialist Liberation Front

and eventually formed a group called the Universal Order. In the 1980s, he started writing a series of papers for a neo-Nazi newsletter, Siege. In those articles, he advocated for what he called leaderless resistance, autonomous terrorist action by individuals in small groups rather than coordinated large-scale movements because the FBI kept infiltrating those.

Speaking of which, on the subject of FBI infiltrating people, you guys remember Trooper Oak? Yeah. Previously Pine? He was Berchman. He was actually like a college student researching file on extremism

who went undercover in the group to write about them and stuff. Oh, really? Yeah, they got infiltrated a number of times. Yeah, it's good stuff. My man Oak! Because Berch is too sick. Yeah, it's too close to...

Berch, the Cowards Tree. It's all making sense. Weak-ass tree. No, you're an Oak and a cop, apparently. Well, it's countering violent extremism research. Yeah. Good guy. Thanks, Trooper Oak. Yeah, thank you, Mr. Berchman.

Ads! Ads! Not the tool and ads, no. Advertisements. But you might be able to buy one. I don't know what these ads are for. Maybe they're ads for ads. Maybe they're ads for ads. Let's hear them.

During the summer of 2020, some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations. And you know what? They were right. I'm Trevor Aronson, and I'm hosting a new podcast series,

Alphabet Boys. As the FBI sometimes, you gotta grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI

spied on protesters in Denver. At the center of this story is a raspy-voiced, cigar-smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark, and not in the good badass way. He's a nasty shark.

He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science

you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price.

Two death sentences and a life without parole. My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't a match

and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all bogus? It's all made up. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lance Bass and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow

to train to become the youngest person to go to space. And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space

with no country to bring him down. It's 1991 and that man, Sergei Krekalev, is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on Earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart.

And now he's left defending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space. 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back! Yeah. We were having a fun little break chat about all the kids in cages.

Areas that are caged. For safety. Safety boxes. I wouldn't use the word cage. I would use a cage. Safety cage. A pen for kids. A crib.

A cute little metal crib. We put them in nurseries with bars. Barred nurseries. Alright. Let's get back to talking about James Nolan Mason. So, Mason started writing for

after Rockwell died, and he left. He started writing for a news letter called Siege. Advocated for leaderless resistance and stuff like that. Many of his writings were collected into a book also called Siege. Here is a quote from that book. I should note here that Chris Hassens

planned shooting spree of you could call them bureaucrats elected political officials and journalists and the like. People know it was stopped. I think a lot of people think it was stopped because the FBI was out looking for white nationalist terrorists.

Infiltrating these organizations as they've said they have been. No. He was caught because he was buying tramadol on his work computer. He was illegally buying painkillers. That's the only reason he got caught. They found out about the massacre by accident. Yeah, that was an accident. Totally just a happy accident.

They were just busting him for drugs. It's totally a bummer. I feel safe. It's a real problem. There were a lot of DSA people on his kill list. Some people are saying if you're in the DSA maybe arm yourself.

I'm not saying arm yourself. I'm saying the police aren't really good at catching the Nazis who want to kill you. In their own organizations who like actively have said in many years that they're going to try to infiltrate law enforcement organizations in the military

for these purposes. I'll say self-defense is important for anyone especially the politically active and there's a variety of pathways to self-defense. So consider how you plan to defend yourself. Consider. With love. Sometimes that works.

With my feet and my fists. Wow. Maybe body armor. Maybe just protection. A little bit of body armor here and there. Mutual aid. Magic. Magic without.

Magic without. Harry Potter would be really useful. Like a grand wizard. No. Too far. Not used the words right? Maybe a warlock.

Maybe a warlock. Like a great warlock. A great warlock. Yeah, not a grand wizard. For whatever reason that was a poor choice of words. Still not clear why, but... I'll adjust. Adam Waffen is a multinational terrorist group

that's spraying up like mushrooms on the damp bathroom floor of the internet. There are somewhere around 20 cells, perhaps more, perhaps less, mostly small groups all around the United States and in Germany. Five deaths have so far been tied to Adam Waffen. One other thing Adam Waffen did was republish James Mason's

Siege, a book they basically consider their Bible. Now Siege has not yet inspired as much direct violence as the Turner Diaries. That would be hard to do. It was sort of rediscovered pretty recently starting on the old neo-Nazi forum Iron March.

Over the last several years, a whole online subculture has spread out around the book. If you spend a lot of time reading messages from members of the Bowl Patrol, for example, they bring up Siege all the time. You guys know about the Bowl Patrol? You guys know about Dillon Roof? The guy who, in 2015,

walked into a black church in Charleston and murdered nine people. He had a bowl haircut. There's people online who call him St. Roof They call themselves the Bowl Patrol because they too would really like to murder a bunch of black people in a church.

And they love Siege. Big fans of Siege. Quick question, who's publishing these books still? Adam Waffen. Adam Waffen's publishing them. That makes sense. So yeah, the Bowl Patrol and Adam Waffen both bring up Siege a lot.

There's also a YouTube channel I found called Read Siege. They put up dozens of videos that have racked up more than 35,000 views, which is not a lot for a YouTube channel, but is a lot for homicidal Nazi propaganda. Yeah, to think about 35,000 people that Well, probably just a couple thousand.

Just a couple thousand mass shooters, Katie. Just a couple thousand. That's not that many mass shooters. Just a couple thousand fans of a mass shooter. And a mass shooter book. And a mass shooter book. So the Bowl Patrol is specifically Dillon Roof. Who was that in cell from like

a year or four years ago? Elliot Rogers. He's got the same fan base. And they're all kind of gradually congealing together into the same broader ecosystem of people who are probably going to shoot up

a bunch of innocent people. Here's my resentment. Here's your resentment. What if we are all resentful together? And what if we all convince each other that the Jews are a part of it? Which is increasingly a fact. But it always gets back to Nazis. It is weird.

You scratch any of these groups of psychotic kids who want to murder a bunch of strangers and always keep finding Nazis. Yeah, they fear the same thing and they want the same thing. Yep. Weird. Weird. Although all of this news makes it way easier for me to understand stuff like

you read about the Holocaust and it's like how did you find all those people willing to work at those camps? Oh, there's a shitload of them. Got you. You can do a lot of stuff with them. There's a lot of maneuvering that can be done with those kinds of people. Yeah. Cool. Cool.

So, the Read Seas YouTube channel has titles in it like The Lost White Civilization of China and a 37 minute What? We're going past it. And a 37 minute video titled Who Were the Jews?

Oh, I bet it's informative. I bet you find out. I bet you find out a lot. Many of their videos are just readings from pages of Siege. I would like to play a chunk from one of those videos titled What Can We Dispense With? President to Dogcatcher, they are all the same bureaucratic

sell-out swine. No distinctions are to be drawn. Meaningless considerations of parties of left and right and even individual identities, names, etc. are simply not to be used. To kill an ism, you have to kill the ists.

Uh, Siege. So, to kill anti-Semitism, I have to kill anti-Semites. Semists? No, that's not the word. Maybe that's right. Yeah, I bring this up because it highlights an important difference between the mentalities

nurtured by Siege and the Turner Diaries. Adam Waffen, the most directly Siege-inspired extremist group is nihilistic, often suicidally though. Their name is the German word for atomic weapons because their whole deal is trying to bring about weighting the destruction of all society. And they have these weird ties now between

all these left and right-wing eco-terrorist groups and eco-fascist groups and these leftist groups that started out as anarchists, like individuals tending towards the wild or starting to share more neo-Nazi propaganda. It's weird. Not the exact same goal, but they're kind of...

They all want to fucking kill everything. And that's what Siege is the book for. Turner Diaries is the book for people who are not nihilists. They want to build something. They want to build something by destroying something. They want to build something. Siege is the book of like, fuck it. Yeah.

And I think that the reason the Turner Diaries killed more people up until now is that now is the time of fuck it. Right. All these stories you were telling were like, oh yeah, 90s, there's a different kind of attitude about it. We were all, even the Nazi terrorists

were more optimistic than 90s. We could build something together. Yeah. Now it's burn it all down. No, it's burn it all down. Interesting. The Turner Diaries was able to radicalize a guy like Timothy McVeigh because at its core, the book is not nihilistic. The Diaries are good at inspiring one to be revolutionary

to carry out violent actions. Siege is more suited to the kind of suicidal extremists that groups like ISIS also seek to radicalize. And by the way, Adam often loves them some ISIS too. Share a lot of ISIS videos. Of course, yeah. Yeah, it's basically tailor-made propaganda for the kind of 20-something young

men who become mass shooters. I will talk much more about Siege in the book I'm shamelessly plugging. It's not shameless. This is your podcast. This is my podcast. It's completely related to this exact topic. But let's get back to Rockwell. Rockwell, George Lincoln, did not come up with the ideas of leaderless

resistance or lone wolf terrorism himself. Good for him. He did not write the Turner Diaries or Siege, but he directly inspired and radicalized the men who did. If you scratch any ideological precept of modern fascism, you eventually wind up back at George Lincoln Rockwell. For example,

you all know about 1488? Of course. And the significance of those numbers to Nazis? Yeah. It's basically for the listeners who may not know. It's a covert way for Nazis to signal their Nazism without directly putting a swastika on their clothing or body. The 88 stands for Heil Hitler because H is the

8th letter of the alphabet and the 14 words are as follows, we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children. That phrase was first written by David Lane, a member of Robert Matthews criminal gang, The Order. While he was in prison, Lane also wrote a

three-page track called White Genocide Manifesto. According to the Atlantic, it argued, quote, racial integration is only an euphemism for genocide and that the white race is on the verge of extinction due to interbreeding with other races. Fucking stupid idiots.

I told you, White Genocide is going to come up. Moronic losers and their stupid dog shit ideas about everything. Oh my god. It's a conspiracy to get rid of, it's not like the natural thing that humans do. Yeah, it's all

fear based. It's saying like I don't want to be treated like I treat people. I feel like I'm going to get overrun and I'm not going to have my power and I'm afraid. I'm afraid, afraid, afraid. The next time you hear White Genocide out of the mouth of somebody trying to claim that they're like a relatively reasonable

person, remind them the phrase was invented by a bank robber who got imprisoned for bank robbery because he joined a group that was inspired by a bad science fiction. I will say that if someone is talking about White Genocide positively, they probably don't care.

We don't care. Yeah, bank robbing Nazis. Congratulations on your great idea, buddy. You stupid. It's the same thing. There's like a Holocaust historian who is talking about this and like the fascist of today

and how like it's just like when they talk about globalism, it's like it's like a conspiracy to like control everybody as opposed to like, well, no, like we're all connected more and like you have the internet and you have all these sort of ways that we can communicate. Where do you think your coffee comes from, bro? The natural progression of like a species on a planet. Yeah.

I look so forward to less White faces as people like we're going to be so much more attractive. And have better immune system. Have diversity and evolution. It's these people. So if you've ever heard the phrase White Genocide or seen a

1488 tattoo, you can thank at least half of that for David Lane. And Lane, of course, was directly inspired by William Luther Pierce, who was radicalized and molded by George Lincoln Rockwell. There he is again. It always comes back in like a John Jacob

Jingleheimer Schmidt for Nazis. You know, it's not for Nazis. The wonderful products and services for the show and her program. Sophie is checking her phone out so I think I can get away with that one. And the product! During the summer of 2020,

some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations. And you know what? They were right. I'm Trevor Aronson and I'm hosting a new podcast series, Alphabet Boys.

As the FBI, sometimes, you got to grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI spied on protesters in Denver.

At the center of this story is a raspy-voiced cigar-smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark. And not in the good-bad-ass way. He's a nasty shark. He was just waiting for me to set

the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI

isn't based on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price.

Two death sentences and a life without parole. My youngest, I was incarcerated on her first birthday. I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match

isn't a match and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all bogus. It's all made up. Listen to CSI on trial

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lance Bass, and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow to train to become

the youngest person to go to space. And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space

with no country to bring him down. It's 1991 and that man, Sergei Krekalev, is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on Earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart.

And now he's left defending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space. 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back! Yay! You guys happy to be here? You all heard of Matthew Heimbach. No. He's the founder of the now defunct traditionalist worker party

and one of the forces behind the first deadly Unite the Right rally. He was a lot more prominent in the alt-right until after the Unite the Right rally in 2017, or 2018, he got caught sleeping with the wife of his

spokesman, a guy named Matthew Parrot. Oh man, and the nickname some people came up with for that whole event, which led to the destruction of the TWP. Beautiful. The Night of Wrong Wives. Oh! That's so good.

That's all the time to break them apart. It's so good. They're well clever, can you get? Really smart. Really, really good joke. I don't know who made it. Might have been a Nazi. Still a good joke. Still a really good joke. Now, Matthew Heimbach

was for a while the most or one of the most notorious white supremacists in the country. He gained notoriety early on in the mid-oughts as the young media savvy face of white nationalism. One of his innovations in terms of presenting fascism to Americans was to focus on racial separatism instead of white supremacy.

Heimbach went out of his way to say that whites are not inherently superior. Richard Spencer preached a broadly similar gospel, at least to reporters. Rockwell was more openly racist and fascist than either of those men, but he pioneered the use of the tactic they both used. We can see the seeds of this strategy

in his support for the Nation of Islam and Black Nationalism. Rockwell told a reporter at the time that his only disagreement with the Nation of Islam was, quote, they want a chunk of America, and I prefer that they go to Africa. Heimbach basically refined that, too. I think they should stay in predominantly black areas

like Detroit, and rural America should stay white. In a very real way, Rockwell represents a bridge between the original Nazis, Hitler and crew, and modern neo-Nazis and fascists in America. I've spent quite a lot of time reading through unicorn riots archives of fascist discord conversations, mostly from members

of the groups that planned the first deadly right rally. These people talk about Rockwell, or GLR, pretty regularly. Here's one quote. Today is the birthday of Commander George Lincoln Rockwell. Honor this man by cooking a steak, celebrating National Socialism, pride in being white, and calling

your neighbor an N-word. Here I have linked a playlist to a series of videos about George Lincoln Rockwell that you can play throughout the day. Personally, I'm having a cookout with some edgy friends, and I'm going to be blasting this shit. That is so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Cody's funny.

Cody might die. What do you mean, my edgy friends? Remember Barbeque and this new Nazi? Oh my god, these losers. All right, sorry. We have a Barbeque and play the words of a Nazi who's been dead for 60 years. Edgy...

Me, my edgy friends. All right, I love... I think he has a different definition of edgy than I do. Yeah, I think he's a loser. Have fun and always remember, and he quotes from Rockwell here, life is a struggle. Even to stand up as a struggle against the law of gravity. And I think that the joy of life

is in the struggle itself, not the victory. Because if it were, we'd all lose. We're all going to croak. We all lose the battle of life. So if you can't find some fun in the fight to live and live to the fullest, then you're a failure already before you even start. Live life for the fullest. Hyal Hitler. And have some fun while you're at it, y'all.

Have some fun while you are making racist banners to troll Martin Luther King Jr. With your edgy friends. With your edgy friends. If you're not having fun, what's the point? With your edgy friends, like the guy in the gorilla costume. And the dude

who shoots you in a couple of years. Sure, yeah, real edgy. A bunch of edgy words just killing each other. And, oh god, and you had to explicitly say, like, we're like edgy. Oh, I love it. I also love that there's the whole like,

I just think that they should stay where they are. That's literally a Hitler quote of him saying like, no, I don't think we're superior. I think like, Chinese people stay in China. You stay where you, Japanese people stay in Japan. That's the only thing. Hey, the axis was a multi-racial empire.

You see, you see, you see. It included all the races. Germans, Italians, Japanese people. That's the whole spectrum. My edgy Japanese friends. My edgy Italian friends. One group of Indian soldiers. There you go.

Indish legion. Hitler wasn't racist, confirmed. That is actually how that's been turned into. Oh, I also hate the internet. Don't worry. I'm there too. countercurrents.com, a Nazi website

for fucking Nazis. Commissioned an article on Rockwell in honor of his birthday written by Gregory Hood, author of a book called Rockwell Was Right. So, Gregory Hood's analysis is interesting to me. Rockwell's national socialism was not an ideology so much as a tactic, an attempt to build a fighting conservatism capable of defeating the militant left. Not wrong.

Not relevant. Didn't make me think of a lot of stuff today. Constantly? Just a random quote from a random person. Random quote from a random Nazi website. This is why a guy like Rockwell can influence both explicit neo-Nazi terrorists and much more moderate, less murderous groups

like the Proud Boys. If you spend any time hanging out with the Proud Boys or watching Patriot Prayer rallies or watching videos posted by either of these groups, members of them will regularly and proudly describe themselves as anti-communist.

If you go to any of these bloody rallies, as I have, you will see anti-communist action shirts and you will hear the phrase anti-communist or anti-com bandied about constantly. June of 1960, George Lincoln Rockwell went to court to defend his application

to march at Union Square in New York City. There were huge protests of his presence, some of which disrupted the court proceedings. The process was called, and Rockwell took the opportunity to go out and speak to some of the waiting TV cameras, according to the book For Race and Nation. Rockwell told television

reporters that the A&P was growing every minute but that his goals had been misrepresented by newspapers. Contrary to newspaper reports, we are not trying to exterminate anybody, but we are trying to eliminate communism. We want to shock the American people into the awareness of the extreme danger of what is going on.

After that, he said he only wanted to gas traders, which he expected would encompass no more than 80% of the Jewish population. Sorry. I don't want to exterminate anybody, 80% of the Jews maybe. Just the traders. About 80% of the population? Yeah, communism is the same thing as

Judaism is the same thing. Cultural Marxism is the same thing as any art, leftism, liberalism is all the same. I mean, it's watching on to something that's a sticking point with people that they're afraid of and they don't understand and then milken that.

Unite the right to defeat the authoritarian left. Exactly. Now, when Rockwell said this little line about gassing 80% of Jewish people in America, this caused many in the crowd to shout at him. One person tried to attack him but was held back. The reporter asked Rockwell how he responded to such

rage. Rockwell replied quote, I'm used to it. They never make such a fuss over communist speaking. It's only when someone is an anti-communist. No, no, no, no. There's more to it. Is that why? In life, George Lincoln

Rockwell was never able to unite the right but in death his ideas have gone on to have influence at every level of the radical right-wing ecosystem. I would like to close by quoting a paper from the University of Glasgow, the leaderless resistance George Lincoln Rockwell and the white separatist movement.

Quote, the advantage of history and political context allows an accurate appraisal of Rockwell and American Nazism. Rockwell as a phenomenon has never been equaled in the American far right with his panache, charisma, ability to manipulate situations and gain media exposure. Rockwell had

little in common with many of his followers who were attracted to the Nazi philosophy he advocated. Prior to Rockwell, the extreme right was an exclusive resort devoid of Catholics and non-Aryan whites. It was Rockwell who ended that exclusivity. I care not what religion, club, area, or class you come from nor what bit of

colored cloth you wave as a flag. We are all under deadly attack. G L R G L R G L R G L R Cheer for the guy. That's um

I mean, every single time we're on this show. Yeah, it's hard to come up with new ways to say yep. And they like a lot of these groups acknowledge him and are aware of. He's very regularly talked at. He shows up all the time. If you go to Unicorn Riot's

database of discord leaks of all these different groups from identity Europa, the TWP, he comes up constantly. Sure. They love him. Yeah. They love him cooking enough. And he's you know, there's a great book called Everything You Love Will Burn, which is about a guy who's like for like 2011

on to 2016. He was just hanging out with these guys to like Matthew Heimbach and different fascist right wing guys and like decided during the 2016 election, I got to write a book about like I'm going to do this thing and Rockwell comes up in that like he's a lot of other people have made this connection.

He is the I mean he and you know, even when it's indirect like with Siege and the Turner Diaries. He's still the guy who was talking to the fucking author of Siege when that dude was right. He's the guy who gave William Pierce his first newsletter and you know started him on the path to writing the Turner Diaries.

He is patient zero of the fucking plague that killed 11 people in the Tree of Life synagogue that led Christopher Hassan to plan a massacre and it's going to be behind the massacre that may have happened by the time this episode drops so glr

goes disturbing. Well, I know I was going for it. It looks like an R. We've been at this for a while. You lose. Get lost. Something. One pump. Get lost Rockwell. Get lost Rockwell. There you go. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I liked his reaction. Robert's reaction was much better than yours. I'm still upset at my failure. I know. Wow. I mean, my brain feels a little mushy from all of that. Yeah, it hurts. But also horrified. Mushified. Mushified. I've choose to not learn anything from this, though. Yeah, this is the right decision. All this history seems relevant,

but I'm going to push out of my mind. Not sure. Ignore it. Yeah, I'm just going to ignore it. It'll probably be fine. I think it'll be fine. Probably be fine. History's for losers. Trying to find a quote. My favorite quote about history is those who learn from history shouldn't say anything because it's not important. This is what Lindsey from You're the Worst says about history. Okay. Whatever history you happened already, let it go. Oh, 21st century right there. Yeah. If you care about history and are worried about all this stuff, I have an audiobook because there's a lot more that I had to leave out because I wrote

13,000 words about George Lincoln Rockwell. There's a whole lot more. Christian identity, talking more about siege and the Turner Diaries and a bunch of other stuff that we did not get to that explains Dylan Roof and all these other fucking mass murders. The audiobook that I'm working on is called The War on Everyone. You can go to GoFundMe, look up The War on Everyone, donate. I'll make that audiobook and then I'll use the money to go stare at these people at rallies and ask them difficult questions. Leading up to the 2020 disaster, yeah. The worst year of everybody's life. I really feel like the Democrats are going to get it together.

Oh, interesting, interesting theory. That seems historically like what they'll do. Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of faith in that. Everyone will get behind one candidate, they'll do a great job of campaigning. The news media won't breathlessly cover the lies that the president says about that candidate. There will be no more fighting in the streets and then we will elect an actual being of light who descends from the sky and is just the reincarnated soul of Mr. Rogers, who will lead us into a future of national health care and moderate environmental activism so that we can stop the nightmare. Yeah. Interesting. I have to say, when you said confidently that you think that Democrats

will get together, my heart lifted a little bit and then you kept talking. I mean, they might. No, I think what you're saying. I mean, I'll say this. 2008, when like before Barack Obama was like the candidate, I was looking at him and Hillary duking it out and I was like, oh, the Democrats are going to fuck it up and after eight years at George W. Bush, we're going to get fucking this, this mess. Yeah. And then the best political candidate of my lifetime ran our best, at least political campaign of my lifetime. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Well, we don't know. Everything starts so soon now. Yeah. It's like it's March, the year before the actual election. Yeah. March and by my

account, 146 million people are running for president. It's Sherrod Brown just said he's not running anymore. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, good. I support less people running for president. I do like him. I mean, I don't like his policy. I like his voice. He seems like an affable man that I'd enjoy dinner with. I wasn't going to vote for him. Yeah. Anyhow. We need more coffee billionaires. Yeah. I'm going to help. Oh, man, that coffee billionaire. Because if there's one thing, I don't have a joke. It'll be fun. It'll be fun. It'll be fun. One cream. One cream. One cream for us. One pump. I think we've come up with the slogan that's going to win in 2020. No matter who. No matter who the candidate is. Yes. Just one pump. One cream.

No, I'm imagining Cody. Picture this in your mind's eye. Half a million people crowding the streets of Washington, DC, flooding the national wall, their hands on placards, shouting at the White House in one voice as one people. One pump. One cream. Oh, yeah. It's one pump. One cream. Not one cream. One pump. I see that. I see that very vividly. Yeah, it's beautiful. I see the, like a Phoenix America. Above the powdered cream ashes. Sure, sure. The Ted Cruz come. Oh, how did we get here? It's three hours of this. You guys want to plug your pluggables before we start saying something crazy? More than anything in the world. Yeah,

you know, internet. Yeah, we do a weekly, we do a weekly, uh, YouTube, uh, weekly podcast called Even More News. Um, we do a weekly, uh, YouTube show called Some More News. Um, Google that. You can support it via patreon.com slash some more news. That's a good job. Yeah. We did it. We should just like designate one of us to do this each episode. I like to play us. Hierarchy is a cancer. Do it this way. Some more news on the patreon.com. Tymian, the internet. Katie Stoll at katysstoll.com. Beautiful. I'm Dr. Mr. Cody on Twitter also. I'm Robert Evans. I'm I'm right okay on Twitter. Uh, you can find this podcast at BehindTheBastards.com. You can find t-shirts if you want a t-shirt. I'm sure we'll have a one,

one cream. Oh, yeah. Can we get it in a tank? Of course we can get it in a tank. A wallet, you know. A wallet. Stickers. Yeah. Put them on everything. One pump. I don't like a rosy the riveter on there. Not her exactly, but. You can find all the sources for this on our website, BehindTheBastards.com. I'm Robert Evans. Until next time, for the love of God, if you remember nothing else, remember one pump, one clean. Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations. In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests. It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse look like a lot

of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know Lance Bass is a Russian trained astronaut? That he went through training in a secret facility outside Moscow, hoping to become the youngest person to go to space? Well, I ought to know. Because I'm Lance Bass. And I'm hosting a new podcast that tells my crazy story and an even crazier story about a Russian astronaut who found himself stuck in space, with no country to bring him down. With the Soviet Union collapsing around him,

he orbited the Earth for 313 days that changed the world. Listen to The Last Soviet on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science? And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price? Two death sentences and a life without parole. My youngest? I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.