Behind the Bastards - Part Three: The Apostle of Fascism

Episode Date: August 15, 2019

Robert is joined by Katy Stoll and Cody Johnston for a reading of Chapter Three of Robert's. 'The War on Everyone.' Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations. In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests. It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse look like a lot of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know Lance Bass is a Russian-trained astronaut?

That he went through training in a secret facility outside Moscow, hoping to become the youngest person to go to space? Well, I ought to know, because I'm Lance Bass. And I'm hosting a new podcast that tells my crazy story and an even crazier story about a Russian astronaut who found himself stuck in space. With no country to bring him down. With the Soviet Union collapsing around him, he orbited the Earth for 313 days that changed the world.

Listen to The Last Soviet on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Words strung out my co-host. We are, oh yeah. We are all ruined right now. I am trying my best. I'm fascinated by it. I just got to get more cappino. I'm doing great. I feel bad. Cody's been slamming cold brew coffees in sunflower seeds.

And Starbucks Spritzers. I have repeatedly failed too. I'm trying to get these throwing bagels to land and stay on top of the soundboard on the ceiling. But I can't quite arc them over the side. It's been a long time. Let me give a shot. I don't want to say how many times. Katie's going to take a shot. She's at a good angle.

Nailed it. Oh yeah. It is up there forever now. Don't tell anybody. Women can do anything. That's right. Just let me take care of it, boys. You mess up those sound boards for us, huh? Yeah.

So this way, if women don't win the presidential election, they at least put throwing bagels on top of a sound award. Where they belong. That was an impeccable aim. It really was. It was a perfect kind of arc. Let's talk about what a feminist icon I am for enabling you to do that. You know what, Robert?

Let's you and me talk about what a feminist icon you are. Yeah, I couldn't have done it without you guys. I mean, you handed me the bagel. I believed in you. I want like a Rosie the Riveter poster that says, I couldn't have done it without you guys. That's another merch. Oh boy.

Chapter three, the apostle of fascism. Ooh. Yeah. What a great chapter name. A lot of mediocre ones too. Kind of a mix. But we got to celebrate the good ones. We got to celebrate the good ones.

If the international fascist movement has a single founding father, that man would be George Lincoln Rockwell. George took the ideologies in the hateful vicious drive to exterminate and dominate that Adolf Hitler established, and they found a way to let them function in a post-World War II world. After the war, fascism had lost its ability to attract a mass audience in the United States. It was seen as the ideology that had torn the world apart, because it was. People wouldn't show up to Nazi party meetings or pay dues or vote as fascists,

and so Rockwell instead focused on generating media attention with the few men he actually had at his disposal. He picketed civil rights marches, wielding signs covered in racial slurs, and trusting the police to defend him and his outnumbered crew. Even if he could only get nine or ten men to march with him, the rage and violence his signs inspired in counter protesters would guarantee massive media coverage. He spoke at colleges for the same reason, knowing that protests and attacks caused by his presence would get him in the papers

and ensure a steady stream of donations. Rockwell positioned himself as a free speech crusader, since arguing to the public about his desire for genocide would have been way less appealing. These are all, of course, tactics that modern fascists use today. I knew it sounded familiar, besides the last time we were here to talk about it. But the fascist movement has evolved considerably since GLR's days. While many of the tools he pioneered are still very effective, his obsession with Nazi imagery, and the swastika in particular,

was doomed for his hopes of ever building a mass movement. He had started to realize this near the end of his career. In 1996 he came up with a brilliant slogan, White Power, which he had printed up on t-shirts and protest placards. He worked the phrase into his speeches in Chicago, where he arrived to counter protest Martin Luther King Jr. Now we already talked about this one as well, but Dr. King was in the city to organize a protest advocating for more public housing,

and traditionally white and thus more affluent parts of the city. For the first time in his career, Rockwell was able to strike a nerve with a large number of white Americans by focusing on their fear and resentment of black people. On August 6th, 1966, Martin Luther King Jr. led a group of marchers through Gage Park. He was met by a huge crowd of counter protesters, organized and radicalized by George Lincoln Rockwell. They numbered more than 2,500.

The crowd carried placards and banners, and blasphemed with Rockwell quotes. Like, join the white rebellion, and we worked hard for what we got. Thousands of furious voices chanted White Power at King and his comrades. It marked the most violent and vicious reception Dr. King ever received. It also marked the high point of Rockwell's career. It was shot dead a year later. His dream of fomenting a white revolution did not die with him. It lived on in his apostles,

and chief among them was a man named William Luther Pierce. Always got three names, these guys. Always. Pierce was born in Atlanta, Georgia on September 11th, 1933. Another 9-11, yeah. His father, also William Luther Pierce, died in a car accident when he was eight years old. His mother had to scramble to support him and his younger brother.

Leonard Zeskin, author of the crucial book Blood and Politics, suspects her background heavily influenced the fascist that Pierce would become. Marguerite's biological father had run off when she was a child, leaving her fatherless until Marguerite's mother remarried. The new stepfather was a Jewish man from New York who had moved south, and Marguerite had a bitter relationship with him. William Pierce's story thus begins with his own absent father and his mother's unhappy tie to a Jewish stepfather.

Marguerite moved about the south with her two young sons in tow. From those travails, William Pierce claimed that he learned the virtues of self-discipline and the importance of delaying immediate gratification for a greater goal. Values, he said, that became constant themes in his life. So Pierce worked as a child to help his mom feed their family. He would later write that his difficult upbringing made him into the man he became. I think this external discipline, this external control being forced over a long period of time to do things I didn't want to do but were necessary to do,

helped me to develop self-discipline. A lot of children these days never learn that. It's amazing how many adults can't do that. They can't stick at a job they don't want to do. Yeah, that's true. It's weird because you get the feeling from him that he kind of wanted to do the Nazism thing. Yeah. Which is actually, it's interesting for a couple of reasons, which we'll get to,

because yeah, young Bill was clearly a brilliant boy. He did well in high school and went to a military academy in Bryan, Texas from 1949 to 51. He earned a job there, cleaning the chemistry lab stock room, and his job wound up stoking what would become a deep love of science. William went to college and then graduate school where he studied to become a physicist. He worked at the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena for a year and married Patricia Jones, who was also a brilliant mathematician. The couple moved to Boulder and Pierce finished his doctorate in physics in 1962.

His dissertation had something to do with nuclear dipole and electric quadrupole resonance, which I do not know what that means. Yep, no thing. Nazi stuff. No, apparently not. Apparently nothing Nazi is in his physics dissertation. Is that flatter stuff? No, I think it's just...

It's classic, yeah. Physicsy stuff. Not classical physics, but like... Classical, neoclassical physics. Neoclassical physics. Pierce got a job as an assistant professor of physics at Oregon State University in Corvallis. They always go through Oregon, yeah. He and his wife had twins and they settled into what seemed like it would be

a perfectly dull, normal, happy, healthy life. Pierce later wrote, Until I was 30 years old, I had hardly given a thought to politics, to race, or to social questions. That changed after he started working at Oregon State University. He began showing up at meetings of the John Birch Society. Okay, okay. Yeah, Cody's hissing like Nosferatu back there. Classic John Birch response.

What is this about? The John Birch Society? No, no, just that area for tapping into... I don't know, but Oregon keeps coming up in this. It wasn't intentional, but the fascist movement in the U.S. always runs through fucking Oregon. It's very weird. It's kind of intuitive for me, but... There's something there, but I don't know what it is.

Yeah, I don't know why it is either, but it happens enough that it's like, what the fuck is going on? There's something to figure out about that. Why you moved there? Well, in the last 20 years, there's this idea of trying to make a white homeland out there. But this is before that. It goes back so much further, too. Yeah, that's weird. Just a fashy place, I guess.

Yeah, I guess. Nazis love pine trees. But I love pine trees. I know, I love pine trees, too. Does that make me a Nazi? Yes. This is the podcast where we all go. Oh, gosh.

Nice. Was I just radicalized by pine trees? Get your swastika on. No. Maybe we're just here to reclaim pine trees. Yeah, let's take pine trees from the Nazis. Taking them back. String them up on pine trees.

Anyway, probably shouldn't advocate for violence in this episode of the podcast. But all the other episodes. All the other episodes, yeah. Now, the John Burke Society. Listeners may not have heard of these guys, but they're one of the most important organizations in the history of the American Right. They're named after an American advisor in China who the group's founder, Robert Welch, considered to be the first American who died fighting communists. Yeah. Always.

Yeah, that's who John Birch was. Robert Welch, the guy who founded the organization. And John Birch Society publications encouraged the US to withdraw from the UN, urged the impeachment of Chief Justice Earl Warren, and accused former President Eisenhower of being a secret communist. Yeah. Here's a line from one of their 1960s publications, The Blue Book, which William Pierce would certainly have read. Now, if the danger from the communist conspiracy were all we had to worry about, it would be enough. But every thinking an informed man senses that, even as cunning, as ruthless, and as determined as are the activists whom we call communists with a capital C, the conspiracy could never have reached its present extensiveness.

And the gangsters at the head of it could never have reached their present power unless there were tremendous weaknesses in the whole body of our civilization. The weaknesses to make an advance of such a disease so rapid and its ravages so disastrous. Weird how communism has been like right on the edge of taking over America for like 70 years. So long. Yeah. Yeah. It's happening. It's gonna get around to it.

One of these days. Yeah. Robert Welch always denied that the John Birch Society had any anti-Semitic leaning. But many people suspected that some of the weaknesses Welch saw in American society were, in fact, Jewish people. Okay. This John Birch Society propaganda was often very similar to the Third Reich's own propaganda. The Nazis also felt that communism was brought down on societies by hidden actors who weakened the state enough for a disease to advance upon it. The main difference between the two is that the Nazis named the Jews explicitly and the John Birch Society did not.

And in fact, Pierce's main issue with the Birch Society became that it wasn't willing to discuss the Jews or explicitly racist issues. The Birchers were far right, but they didn't want anyone to mistake them for literal Nazis. Pierce later wrote, quote, I quickly found out that the two topics on which I wanted an intelligent discussion, race and Jews, were precisely the two topics Birch Society members were forbidden to discuss. Oh, dang. That took a quick dip. I just want to talk about Jews. I just want an intelligent conversation about the Jews and race.

The Jews. Oh, Jesus. William Pierce maintained a successful career as a physicist while he devoured more and more John Birch propaganda. In 1965, he left the university and got a job in Connecticut, working for the Pratt and Whitney aircraft plant as a senior research associate physicist. He made good money and did well, but his coworkers described him as a real loner who worked poorly with others and seemed almost unable to manage subordinates. Okay. Pierce's political leanings were kept more or less under wraps until the plant's workers went on strike. This face-to-face contact with what Pierce considered communism, infuriated him so much that he tried to drive his crowd through a picket of a thousand union men.

Wow. Excuse me. Oh, you have questions? Is everything communism? Yes, everything is communism. And the proper response to communism is to hit with your car. I just wanted to clarify it. Presumably they were protesting in a way that would have benefited him, right? These were his coworkers?

No, I think as a physicist working there, he was at a different level than these guys who were doing more grunt stuff. We hit him with your fucking car. That seems, that's a pretty big through line too. Yeah, hitting protesters with cars. Yeah, that has not changed at all in the last several decades. Ban all cars. Nope, wrong answer? Okay. It's not wrong.

It's not wrong. Ban all cars except for mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Can I get mine in? I keep too much stuff in my car. Can I borrow your car? No. I think I should be the only one with a car. I think you should be the only one with a gun. And then I could just make myself king.

Just tooling around in a Prius with a rifle. The one thing I know about Robert Evans, he loves kings. I'm a big fan of kings. A king advocate. I mean, if I'm the king, yeah. See, this is the problem. Oh, that's how it happens. That's how it happens.

But if I solve the problems, then... Alright, back to the episode. Chapter. It's a chapter when it's the audio book. Yeah. So, yeah, Pierce tried to run down a thousand people with his car. Sure. That did not work. And he soon had to move on from his job.

What a kind way to say that. Yeah. So, since Pierce had moved out to the East Coast, he'd used it as an opportunity to start visiting the American Nazi Party headquarters in Arlington, Virginia. He met a fella named George Lincoln Rockwell, and William and GLR got along quite well. Pierce found national socialism to be a good fit with the beliefs he'd been developing since his move to Oregon. His only issue with Rockwell in the Nazis was, you know, all the Nazi stuff.

Pierce thought that old-fashioned, fascia uniforms in swastikas made them look like they were Larpers, rather than serious revolutionaries. He didn't use the term Larpers, but he accused them of Hollywood antics, which is essentially the same thing. In May of 1966, Pierce resigned from his factory job and moved his family to Virginia. Patricia started teaching university math so she could support her husband and his Nazi efforts. Weirdly enough, Patricia wasn't a Nazi, and later divorced her husband for his beliefs. But for a time, she seemed willing to, like, humor him, maybe?

Right. Well, it's hard to pin down at first. Yeah, she probably didn't know exactly what it was. You know, because, like, obviously you're hiding your power level, and also you married the person, so you love them, you love who they used to be. And you're like, are you slowly turning into a Nazi? Also, divorce is just so hard to deal with. Power level always gets me.

It does sound like a video game, or a D&E. I mean, that's all the Nazi fascist fantasy bullshit. That's the fantasy bullshit is exactly where this story leads. I was hoping so. Oh, yeah. But you know where this story is going to lead right now? To an ad-hidden break! Yeah, to an ad-hidden break.

I said it first, I won. You did win. You did win. As a celebration for your victory, I'm going to try to throw this bottle of apple juice up onto the ceiling with the throwing bagels. That's a good idea. Great idea. Ooh!

I didn't win. I overshot it. Right over the rainbow. Several feet. The one thing I like with six bagels, a tiny bottle of apple juice. Product! During the summer of 2020, some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations. And you know what?

They were right. I'm Trevor Aronson, and I'm hosting a new podcast series, Alphabet Boys. As the FBI sometimes, you got to grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI spied on protesters in Denver. At the center of this story is a raspy-voiced, cigar-smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark.

And not in the gun badass way. He's a nasty shark. He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to heaven. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lance Bass, and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow to train to become the youngest person to go to space. And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down.

It's 1991, and that man, Sergei Krekalev, is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on Earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart. And now he's left defending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space, 313 days that changed the world. Listen to The Last Soviet on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price. Two death sentences and a life without parole.

My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't a match and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all bogus. It's all made up. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back from maybe the best ad pivot in the podcasting game. It was so good. Frame it. So if you're shaking your head yes.

Frame it. Classic yes gesture. Dip it in gold. Shake your head from side to side. I wish I had a gold-covered bagel. Do you? Yes. What would you do with it?

Throw it. Yeah. There'd be holes in the walls. Just chucking 20 pounds of gold across the room. You are out of touch with the working man. I am definitely out of touch with the working man. Yeah, you want to be king and throw gold around. Okay, seeing a different side of Robert Evans today.

Yeah, this podcast has gone to my head. Now I've lost my classic Robert Evans working man's touch. Robert, now you're the bastard. I've always been the bastard. Fair. And I'm almost out of things to throw. Hey, we'll figure that out. We'll find something else to throw.

Maybe I can just throw recording equipment. So if he didn't shake your head. She did not react at all. Yeah, we're good to do it. That's approval. How about you throw that nice pillow? No. Okay.

So now William Luther Pierce was kind of a hard guy to get along with, which is probably not super surprising. He's not reported to by either of his kids showing much emotional connection to them. His wives say that he was like also distant. The only thing he ever really seemed to love effusively were his Siamese cats and Nazism. So big fan of cats, big fan of Hitler. Okay. Yeah, go figure.

Except Siamese cats are like the worst cats. That's not true. They're fine. That's not true. They're fine. All cats are good. You can catch them. They're fine.

They're fine. Yeah. All cats are good fans of behind the bastard. Yes. Yeah. They would like this podcast. I didn't mean it. No.

We know. We know. Siamese cats are fine. They're just... I was originally picturing instead of Siamese cats, the Persian cats with the pushed in faces. Oh, those are terrible cats. That's what I was picturing as I was saying it.

Beanbag chair somebody threw a rock at. So it would be like, yeah, I'd figure you'd like those cats. Yeah. But that's not... That's fake. That's what I said. We're going to really offend some Persian cat owners today. Well, I'm sorry.

Yeah. They shouldn't have made that mistake. You don't sound sorry. It sounded like you were being sarcastic when you said that. Well, I'm sorry. That's what you perceived. Okay. But what do I...

Now what do I think? I think we're derailing this story. Interesting. So Rockwell and Pierce embarked on a publishing venture together, putting out six issues of a Nazi magazine. But William refused to actually join the American Nazi party until Rockwell changed its name. From the American Nazi party to the National Socialist White People's Party, he just needed it covered up a little bit.

Like that's... That's the National Socialist White People's Party. Just don't have the word Nazi at the time. The National Socialist White People's Party. They're almost making it worse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

When Rockwell was gunned down in the parking lot at Laundromat... What a transition. I love that he died that way, shut down next to a fucking Laundromat. Move. Rockwell. That's the way most Nazis should go. It is. He spent his entire life crafting began to fracture.

Nazis were, then now and always, catty bitches. GLR had kept his party together by sheer force of will, and even he hadn't done a very good job of that since he was murdered by one of his own men. Pierce stuck with an NSWPP, which retained the most members after Rockwell's death. For a while he tried to take Rockwell's place, acting as the functional head of the party, writing all of its propaganda, and even speaking at university campuses. He did not have Rockwell's talent for drawing media attention. His only real success was saying that Nixon should be, quote, dragged out of his office

and shot, which drew some coverage and got the FBI to start looking into him, and was also the truest thing he would ever say. That's great. Like, wow. We thought it abbreviated it as NSWPP. It's not safe for work, PP. That's not a joke. It just, I just, I'm too tired.

You have the PP's that are safe for work and the ones that aren't. Yeah, that's true. I guess I just like PP. That's funny. Also funny that, I mean, even a Nazi clock is going to be right once a day. That's great. So wait, why did he want Nixon to be? Because Nixon was soft on the juice.

Yeah, there it is. Oh gosh. Which if you'd told Nixon, he would have said, no, I'm not. What? How? What can I do to fix that? God. Who's like, I'm soft on the juice?

Oh my God. As we state this, that audio has just leaked out of Ronald Reagan saying horrible things about black people. Richard Nixon. And the most amazing thing about that is Richard Nixon's clearly uncomfortable with it on the line. You can hear him being like, don't say, like wanting to, like he doesn't bring it up. It's like.

He's like, ah. You hear that? There's like, yeah. You're allowed. I'm not going to say that out loud. Yeah. You can't call them monkeys. Jesus Christ.

Man, the reaction to that is so, oh God, it's pathetic. Oh, I can't imagine anyone would even address it. Who loves them? I mean, they're like Reagan sites and people are just like, why do we have to judge him on this? Like, well, if you have a person who's like been called racist for decades and then it's proven that he's racist, maybe you should like think about what, about, about like why you're defending that guy and it's all right.

Whatever, it doesn't matter. We're talking about how Nixon needs to be dragged out of his office and shot. Yeah. And Pierce would also have issues with Reagan for not. Not saying that kind of stuff out loud as much. Yeah. So, now during this period of the 1970s, Pierce became something of a tutor and a mentor to a fella named James Mason.

Young James had joined Rockwell's American Nazi Party back in 1966 when he was 14. Two years later at age 16, James got in trouble at school. He was disciplined by his principle and in retaliation started planning to go on a shooting spree and murder multiple members of his school's administration before carrying out his plan. The NSWPP's headquarters wound up on the horn with William Pierce or sorry, he called the NSWPP's headquarters. This kid plans to go on a school shooting and he calls the, the, the party before he starts shooting.

Oh, so he called the party and was like, Hey, I want to do this. I want to do this. I want to shoot up this school and William Pierce talks him down and Pierce instead convinces James Mason to move to Virginia and start working for the party and learn how to run a printing machine instead of committing a school shooting. Given what comes later than a school shooting, but actually debatably given what comes later from James Mason, it might have been better for the world if he'd shot up a school. Okay.

Tell me what happens next. Well, right. Cause you're like, you're, you're taking this kid and you're not de-radicalizing him. You're, you're funneling, you're channeling his anger and his Nazism into a propagandist and yeah. And James Mason would go on to write a book titled siege, which would provide the nuts and bolts, uh, inspiration for the terrorist group, Adam Waffen and a whole shitload of other school shooters, including those two Canadian kids who are currently on the run

in the middle of the wilderness, siege heads, as we called them. Yeah. So that's James Mason starts out wanting to be a school shooter, gets convinced by William Luther Pierce. No, no, no, no, no. I know what you're good at. I mean, you're gonna inspire school shooters. What if instead you made a hundred school shootings happen?

Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. As the 1960s wound to a close, William Pierce started to get frustrated with the NSWPP, mainly about the fact that it again was just too darn Nazi-ish. He believed fascism needed an authentically American character and movement if it was going to have any chance of taking over the country.

Just dressing up as Nazis was not going to cover it. He quit the party in July of 1970 and published a paper titled Prospectus for a National Front, which he circulated around neo-Nazi circles. Here's how it opened. America today, and more specifically the American people, faced the most serious and deadly menace which has arisen in their entire history. This menace far overshadows that posed by any war we have fought, any economic catastrophe through which we have passed, or any previous domestic strife which has torn us.

For today, we are faced not just with a threat to our territorial integrity, or to our material possessions, or to our way of life, or even to our own lives, but to something far dearer. Today, all that we have ever been and all that we ever might be, our race itself, is threatened with extinction. Yeah, right on, man. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Famously doomed people, white Americans in 1970. Yeah. Yeah, you've had a... It was a rough time. That was a really tough decade for white people. Yeah. Yeah. Dark ages.

Yeah. Yeah. Under attack and threat. I just... Oh, the whole thing is just like... Under attack means... Like, just who cares? Other people...

Too many other people get more rights, or more attention. Well, but I mean, fucking, the black people were moving on up. Exactly. That's a threat. Yeah. That means that white people were moving on down. Exactly. It's the only way that it works.

It's the only way. It's the only way. He went on to complain that none of the existing radical right-wing organizations in the US had the ability to turn into a, quote, large-scale revolutionary movement, quote, they're long established an unbroken record of failure is the best evidence of this fact. It was not an inaccurate statement. Yeah. He attacked the movement for being filled with overgrown children and said, in essence,

we need to stop waiting around for a new Hitler to rise up and unify all of our different little fringe groups. Instead... We need to sort of, like, unite them. Yeah. Unite the right. Ah. Yeah.

There it is. Fascists take a leaf out of communism's book and create a national front, a large umbrella organization that could combine and coordinate all of the different far-right groups and allow them to recruit people more easily without the baggage of swastikas and clan robes. Towards this end, William Pierce established the National Alliance in 1974. We'll talk more about it throughout the book, but obviously the National Alliance did not wind up being the trick to create a mass fascist movement in the United States. It was objectively more successful than Rockwell's American Nazi Party, though, drawing in thousands

of members over the years and generating millions in income. But it proved no more capable of creating a popular revolution than the A&P had been. However, buried in Pierce's prospectus was a very important paragraph that contained a realization far more critical than his National Alliance could ever become. Quote, About the only good thing which can be said of all these little groups is that they do generate quite a flood of pamphlets, leaflets, bulletins, newsletters, and other printed materials which express some excellent sentiment.

But even here it is largely an incestuous sort of affair in which the propaganda and the sentiment are circulated largely within the same vaguely defined movement in which they were born. Any real contact or rapport with the general population is absent, and this lack of contact with the public is not due simply to the problems of distribution or a lack of access to the mass media. Most movement literature would fail to evoke a sympathetic response from the masses even if it could be placed regularly in their hands.

It is, for the most part, too esoteric, too introverted, and too kooky to strike a responsive cord among the general public. Hi, Dad. Too racist. Too terrible. Too awful. I hate that you're not right. The racism wasn't the problem.

The racism wasn't the problem. No. Yeah. It was... We'll get to it. We'll get to it. It's what works. So you see, he started to realize that our propaganda is not cutting it.

We need to find a way to make Nazi propaganda that doesn't feel like Nazi propaganda so it can hit a broader chunk of the populace. Yeah, you need to fight harder in the meme wars. Yeah, that's just smart. And Pierce is going to go on to be the guy who strikes the greatest blow in the meme wars. So Pierce correctly understood that to really make progress, American fascism was going to have to craft propaganda that could infect the hearts and minds of normal white Americans.

It would take years for Pierce to translate this insight into action, but when he did, the result would quite literally shake the world. First however, came his dalliance with a sprightly gentleman named Willis Carto. Now Carto is one of the very few individuals in this story whose commitment to fascism precedes the activism of George Lincoln Rockwell. Willis started a monthly paper in 1955 called, revealingly, The Entitled Right, the journal of forward-thinking American nationalism. Yeah, a little on the nose.

It was basically just like a bunch of anti-communist, anti-Semitic segregation-like articles. In 1957, Carto first wrote openly about his idea to create something called the Liberty Lobby, which he promised would, quote, lock horns with minority special interest pressure groups in order to support the needs of white people who were suffering in the 1950s. Carto wrote that, quote, to the goal of political power, all else must be temporarily sacrificed. He spent his life embodying that creed. Now Carto was not an out-on-the-street bullhorn and placards activist, nor was he an armed revolutionary clutching a rifle and calling for racial holy war.

Instead, he sought to bring anti-communists and segregationists together and craft a thoroughly American fascist movement. In 1962, he started to publish a magazine, Western Destiny, dedicated to inculcating these ideas among the American right. He wrote about culture creators, a.k.a. white people, and their eternal battle against culture destroyers, a.k.a. black people. Tolerance, Carto wrote, can often be a culture retarding and culture distorting weakness. Oh, yeah.

This is the good stuff right here. Yeah, it's like 80% of the weight being real close to being fucking, what's that fake university they have now? It's PragerU. It's the Western civilization fetishism. Yeah, just cover up the racism a little bit more. An ancestor of PragerU, for sure. Yeah.

Now, Western Destiny began to attract a dedicated audience of budding extremists, including a teenager named David Duke. It's possible that Willis Carto is the man who read Pilled Duke. Yeah, so that's who we're with now. Thanks, bud. Throughout the late 1960s, as William Pierce was coming up with his idea for a national front, Willis Carto built the Liberty Lobby into a moderately large mailing list for the distribution of far-right, but not openly fascist propaganda.

He latched on to the 1968 presidential bid of a fellow named George Wallace. Now, Wallace was the 45th governor of Alabama, and one of the leading voices against the civil rights movement. His most famous line is probably this. In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod the earth, I draw the lion in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say, segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever! Throwing the gauntlet at the feet of tyranny.

The feet of black people and white people in different schools. You tyrants. He's the first guy to use the liberal media term. Yeah, George Wallace. Groundbreaking. Yeah. Sounds like a real keeper. It was to discredit the civil rights movement, so it's that.

Different from today. You're so different. Unreal. Yeah. So, Carter turned the Liberty Lobby to the cause of getting Wallace elected president. He was, of course, unsuccessful in this goal, but the campaign was an incredible success for the Liberty Lobby. By its end, they'd become home for almost but not quite Nazi politics in the United

States. Their newsletter, the Liberty Letter, had 170,000 subscribers. Now, when Wallace's campaign fell apart, Carter was able to swoop in and acquire a mailing list with the names of an additional 230,000 people, members of the group Youth for Wallace. Realists felt that the failure of George Wallace to win the presidency was no good reason to let the movement of young fascists he's inspired go to waste. Under Carter, Youth for Wallace molded into the National Youth Alliance. According to Zaskin's blood and politics, quote, in the subsequent months of the National

Youth Alliance sponsored several regional meetings, including a January 1969 event at Conley's Motor Hotel in Monroville outside Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It was here that the youth organization first began to unravel. Several officers in the new group objected to the content and tenor of the meeting, and an attendant social at an supporter's home. It claimed that the affair was a wash in Nazi heraldry, including women who wore swastika jewelry and men who sang the Horst Wessel Lied, a Nazi party anthem from the 1930s. The host and emcee promoted a new booklet by Carter's West Coast Enterprise, Noontide

Press, Myth of the Six Million. It argued that the Nazi genocide was a figment of the Jewish imagination. One of the formal presentations was entitled, Plato the Fascist. So this breaks apart the movement into two chunks. There's the people who really were just very far-right conservatives, but once he starts talking about holocaust and they're like, oh shit, I accidentally wound up in a Nazi line. I didn't, and I don't want to be a Nazi.

Right. I just want liberty. I just want liberty. And you know, good for them. Good for them for at least being like, oh shit, this is Nazis. I gotta get out of here. Yeah, it's like you go to the United Right rally and you're like, oh wait, Nazi's everywhere. What's this?

You would hope that would provoke some real thinking, like some soul searching? It never happened, man. No. I mean, you know that like. If I was part of a political organization and I showed up at a house party thrown to celebrate it and everybody was wearing swastikas, I would really sit down and reconsider some shit. Like how did I get here?

You take a moment. Yeah. You take a moment. At least a moment. Yeah. Speaking of taking a moment. Pivot. Add pivot.

Oh my goodness. If we did Snickers ads, this would really have been a good time for one. Yeah. There's like, need a moment? Yeah. That's a Snickers ad. Like you show up at like a national youth alliance meeting and everybody's dressed as a Nazi and it's like, need a moment?

Snickers, are you listening? This is gold. This is a gold covered bagel. Distance yourself from Nazi Snickers. Yeah. Geez. Take a break. Snickers, the distance yourself from Nazi snack.

I'd buy one. Products. During the summer of 2020, some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations and you know what, they were right. I'm Trevor Aronson and I'm hosting a new podcast series, Alphabet Boys. As the FBI, sometimes you got to grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI spied on protesters

in Denver. At the center of this story is a raspy voiced, cigar smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark. And on the gun badass way, nasty sharks. He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Even Alphabet Boys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lance Bass and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow to train to become the youngest person to go to space. And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down. It's 1991 and that man, Sergei Krekalev, is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on Earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart.

And now he's left defending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space, 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful

lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price. Two death sentences and a life without parole. My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't a match and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all

bogus? It's all made up. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Now I want a Snickers. Yeah, I want a Snickers too. We all want a Snickers.

We do all want a Snickers. So the National Youth Alliance quickly alienated the majority of its potential membership mainly because Carto had revealed his power level a little too early. Every time. Every time. Every time. Every time. Every time.

Every time. Yeah, it's never not stupid. Yeah. It's a fucking Dragon Ball Z reference. It is. How did that turn into Nazism? It's just meme dork shit, you know, it's all over. So Carto's work attracted some new blood, however.

William Pierce and a sizable herd of national socialists, they'd started hovering around the Liberty Lobby like flies on the rotting corpse of George Wallace's presidential ambitions. They worked together for a while, but it was an acrimonious pairing, and the straight-up national socialists conflicted with Carto's old guard, who were basically fine towing the Nazi line, but didn't want other people to call them Nazis. Carto and Pierce wound up breaking apart, and after a complex series of bureaucratic battles I don't care to recount, William Pierce wound up in charge of the National Youth Alliance.

He reincorporated it in Virginia in October of 1970. This is the group that would go on to become the National Alliance, so that's where it came from. As George Wallace's youth movement becomes the National Alliance's largest Nazi organization in the U.S. Okay. Cool. That's really cool, and not upsetting how clear the path and the connections are.

Yeah. Republicans to straight Nazis was? Yeah. Yeah. Now, Carto accused Pierce of stealing the Liberty's Lobby's mailing list, which was probably true. Pierce accused Carto of embezzling $55,000 from his own organization, which was also probably true.

I love how they all just hate each other so much. Carto accused Pierce's faction, who were again literal Nazis, of being Zionists. Pierce responded by calling Carto Swarthie, which was racial code, but yeah, you're not white enough. Oh my gosh. Nazis. The fighting between Pierce and Carto just underscored how unsuccessful Pierce's efforts to build a National Front had been.

His plan had been to start by recruiting more students starting in the D.C. area, but this was a miserable failure. When he was invited to speak at George Washington University in February of 1972, Pierce couldn't gather more than two dozen students. Anti-fascist showed up and threw raw eggs at him and his men, which I think is fun just because we talk a lot about the long-standing traditions among fascism, and it's neat that a long-standing anti-fascist tradition is eggs. Eggs.

Yeah. No milkshakes. Just some eggs. Just some eggs. Not yet. Yeah. It's nice. That egg boy.

Yeah. That egg boy who hit, what's his name, Frazier, the Frazier anning, the Australian fascist politician. The Christchurch stuff. Give him a good egging. Classic. Tale's all this time. Yeah.

Egging fascists. Egging fascists. On February 26, 1974, William Pierce decided to revamp the National Youth Alliance into a new organization, the National Alliance. He continued to publish the organization's newsletter, ATTACK, which included guides for how to bomb movie theaters in articles on which firearms worked best for- what? You don't like bombing movie theaters, Katie? I don't like it.

No, I don't like it one bit. I thought you were a big movie theater bombing fan. No, no, no, no, no, no. How did I get that wrong? No. I'm a- Oh, you like movies. I'm a movie goer.

So you're comfortable putting yourself on an anti-bombing movie theater list. Yeah. That sounds a little extreme to me, but okay. This is how we get radicalized. Yeah. We're all taking a journey towards radicalization. I mean, if you're forcing me to just take a stance, then yeah, sign me up. I'm just saying it's radical to be in favor of bombing movie theaters, but it's equally

radical to be against it. I posit that no, it isn't. They're equal. They're equal. Both sides. The anti of another thing is just as radical as that thing always. If you're anti-extreme, then you are extreme. Exactly.

You're drowning me in logic, guys. Both are equally bad. You can just take your radical anti-movie theater bombing opinions elsewhere. Until I stay in the middle and say, maybe it's fine to bomb movie theater sometimes. You just got reasoned. Logic. I've got nothing to say to that. That's right, because you got destroyed.

Robert Evans breaks Katie Stoll on the wheel of logic. It's so much more pathetic in person. You got destroyed. It is. No. I didn't. Yeah. So, yeah, Attack included a lot of the fare that Nazi newsletters had always focused on.

But the next year, 1975, William Luther Pierce introduced his first truly great innovation into the annals of right wing terror. He started publishing a book in Attack, a book titled The Turner Diaries. Oh, there it is. I was wondering where they'd come in. Published in sections across several issues of Attack, the book is presented as a series of diary entries from a revolutionary. You might compare it to a Nazi answer to a handmaid's tale.

And in fact, it was partly probably inspired by. I think it actually predates that by a little bit. There were other books it was inspired by. There's a long tradition of books in this line that Turner Diaries is inspired by. Yeah. One more Z. I don't know. I haven't read it.

Zombie story? Yeah. The Turner Diaries were meant to take place in a near future America in which a Jewish-dominated liberal government had taken over and forcibly instituted such horrors as multiculturalism and gun control. Pierce presents those things from a Nazi point of view. So multiculturalism is presented as feral animalistic black people raping white women at will.

And gun control is portrayed as the forcible confiscation of all privately owned firearms. There are a quality police in the book to give you an idea of its tenor. Idiot losers, idiot losers, the quality police. It's just really on the nose and obvious. It's so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. Earl Turner is a normal white man who gets swept up in a secret terrorist organization led by a group called the Order who organized their insurgency in a series of small cells

and carry out vicious terror attacks, including the bombing of an FBI headquarters. The goal of these attacks is to destabilize the American government and provoke a vicious race war. The Order funds its operations by robbing banks and armored cars, which allows them to buy weapons and explosives to carry out more attacks and gradually to tip the country into a nightmare. The book launched a number of concepts into the fascist mindset, not the least of which is the idea of the day of the rope.

Who idea? Day of the rope? Yeah. I'm going to quote now from the Turner Diaries, quote, Today has been the day of the rope, a grim and bloody day, but an unavoidable one. Tonight, from tens of thousands of lampposts, power poles, and trees throughout this vast metropolitan area, the grisly forms hang. In the lighted areas, one sees them everywhere.

Even the street signs at intersections have been pressed into service, and at practically every street corner I passed this evening on my way to HQ, there was a dangling corpse. Four at every intersection, hanging from a single overpass only about a mile from here is a group of 30. Each with an identical placard around its neck bearing the printed legend, I Betrayed My Race. Two or three of that group had been decked out in academic robes before they were strung up, and the whole batch are apparently faculty members from the nearby UCLA campus.

The first thing I saw in the moonlight was the placard with the legend in large, block letters. I defiled my race. Above the placard, leered the horribly bloated, purplish face of a young woman, her eyes wide open and bulging, her mouth agape. Finally, I could make out the thin vertical line of rope disappearing into the branches above. Apparently, the rope had slipped a bit, or the branch to which it was tied had sagged

until the woman's feet were resting on the pavement, giving the uncanny appearance of a corpse standing upright of its own volition. I shuddered and quickly went on my way. There are many thousands of hanging female corpses like that in this city tonight, all wearing identical placards around their necks. They are the white women who were married to or living with blacks, with Jews, or with other non-white males. What a quote.

The Turner Diaries, everybody. The Turner Diaries. I mean, like... Boo. Yeah, that's awful. Not a fan, huh? No. I thought you guys were going to really enjoy that passage.

Zero stars. Zero. Zero. So they're glad that all those people are hanging. Yes. Because like... The Day of the Rope is a good thing in the Nazis. You would be...

Like, I'm like, okay, sci-fi novel. That's the... Do I do that or the bad guys? No, not in this. No. No. In this, they are the ones to be emulated. Now, Earl Turner dies in the book, carrying out a suicidal but successful assault on the

Pentagon. But the order is victorious. The book is essentially framed as a historical document, with researchers from Earl's future commenting on it. They note that after the U.S. was purged of all non-white people, the same thing was done to the rest of the planet, using a series of nuclear and chemical weapons attacks to cleanse Asia. What?

Yeah. Wait a minute. It's like a total global genocide of all non-whites. Yeah, but it's... Sick horseshit. It's like a history? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like written as like, oh, in the perfect white future, we found the diaries of this revolutionary who helped us establish our U.T. Right. Oh, I see. Here's how we got here. I see.

I see. Here's how we got here. I see. I fictional. Yeah. Yeah. Do they believe that they're just pre-entively writing a historical novel? No.

I think they were... Yeah. This is very fancy. This is very fancy. I got you. It's like gangbusters among the American far right. It was eventually published as a book, selling as many as 500,000 copies. The Turner Diaries...

Yeah, way too many. It's too many. It did not sell the traditional way in a Barnes & Noble. Instead it proliferated virally on the gun show circuit at survivalist conventions and in tiny small town shops owned by racists. 500,000 copies is, of course, a sizable success even by mainstream standards. I found a good article in The Atlantic by J. M. Berger, who authored a scholarly paper titled The Turner Legacy.

It notes... The Turner Diaries is notable for its lack of ideological persuasion. At one point in the novel, its protagonist, Earl Turner, is given a book to read. Turner claims the book perfectly explains the reasons for white supremacy and the justification of all the order's actions. Importantly, this magical tome's contents are never specified. Although the novel's epilogue broadly hints at a Nazi orientation, the book never explicitly identifies the order with a specific movement.

Due in part to Pierce's desire to appeal to normal people, as well as the novel's limited initial circulation among neo-Nazis, Turner assumes its readers are already racist and do not need to be recruited to that mindset. The abandonment of why empowers a singular narrative focused on what and how, the necessity of immediate violent action, and concrete suggestions about how to go about it. This is part of why the book has been so often associated with violence and terrorism. Now, The Turner Diaries would go on to become the most influential single piece of fascist propaganda since Mein Kampf.

It has inspired more than 200 murders since its inception, but it's also inspired a hell of a lot more than simple murder. The Turner Diaries became the ideological underpinning of a vicious American insurgency, which eventually led to hundreds and hundreds of armed men around the country working actively towards the establishment of a white supremacist state, a problem that continues to this day. Now The Turner Diaries inspired more than that though, because it also inspired a whole new genre of terrible right wing fiction. So have you guys heard about a little book called Unintended Consequences?

I don't think so. It was published in 1996 by a guy named John Ross, and it's best described as The Turner Diaries, but all of the racism is whispered, so like a little bit more subtle. The cover of the copy I have features a burning copy of the Constitution with a black clad cop attempting to sexually assault Lady Justice in front of him. Subtle, huh? Very subtle. Gosh.

Have you read these books? I've read Unintended Consequences, I've only read parts of The Turner Diaries, it's just not very entertaining. Right, not good, and kind of hard to get through. But I came across Unintended Consequences not, like I came across it at like a gun store. It was, was it an unintended consequence? Yeah, of me being against the gun store. That's a really true part of this, where it's like all these things just sort of pop up

in gun stores, under the belly of all this stuff. And the main innovation from The Turner Diaries and Unintended Consequences was that it switched the focus of the revolutionaries away from race war and gun rights towards just gun rights. So that was a factor in The Turner Diaries, Unintended Consequences makes it the center of the whole thing. The plot focuses around a guy named Henry Bowman who winds up being framed by the ATF for some dumb reason, related to the desire to steal American guns. He kills all the ATF agents and then brutally tortures one who he captures.

Bowman and a small group of gun rights advocates then carry out a terror campaign, brutally murdering gun control advocates around the nation until the president repeals all gun control laws. Alex Jones has mentioned multiple times on Info Wars that Unintended Consequences is one of his favorite books. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he sure should. Yeah, he does.

Yeah. Now in more recent years. Has he ever mentioned The Turner Diaries? No. He's never? Okay. That seems like a little too... He's read them though.

Oh, absolutely. He's a big fan. I wonder if there's ever been like audio or moments where he's like slipped it in. Yeah. But I believe he's too smart to mention that outright. Yeah. Yeah. That's one that you can't mention.

Right. Because then you're definitely a nod. Then you know, yeah. Yeah. But Unintended Consequences... It's a little... ...separate enough. It's a little safer.

Another thing that's separate enough. Have you heard of Matt Bracken? No. Well, he wrote a book series called Enemies Foreign and Domestic. Like Unintended Consequences, this book is basically Turner Diaries with Less Racism. In it, the liberal government creates a false flag mass shooting to take away everyone's funds. The ATF is the bad guy and brave patriots beat them via terrorism.

Now Bracken's innovation was to have the cast of his books include numerous non-white people. The idea seems to be that if most of the characters are non-white, then the book can't be accused of being racist. Okay. On an unrelated note, the second book in the series is Domestic Enemies, the Reconquista. Oh my God. Yeah.

One guesses to where that goes. The evil liberals orchestrate an invasion of America via using Mexicans with the goal of having them ban English into Southwest and then secede from the United States. What year were these? These are coming out now. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

These are recent. Bracken is like a special forces veteran and like a right wing activist and stuff. This is all coming out now. Jay M. Berger, the guy who wrote the Turner Legacy, also wrote an article about these books for the Daily Beast. He identified some similarities between Bracken's third book and the Turner Diaries. Quote, after an earthquake demolishes Memphis, black refugees turn into a seething mob of gang rapists and camels, characterizations that feature memorably in the Turner Diaries,

while urban blacks loot a path from Baltimore to Washington, D.C., where they demand and receive a new socialist constitution engineered by a thinly veiled caricature of President Obama. The narrative disclaimers continue. One character condemns white racist killings in the chaos after the quake, and a battle-weary white racist girl near the end of the book accepts a hand of comfort offered by a black army medic. But these and other moments of individual race grace are hard pressed to counter with

the vivid, lengthy depiction of African-Americans en masse as cannibal rapists directly responsible for destroying America's constitution. This is so upsetting. Yeah. It really makes me angry. It's a great rubric, though. Gotta give Pierce credit. I mean, it works.

It's, uh, even credit. Upsetting. It's bastard. Yeah, credit is a piece of shit, but a piece of shit who was very effective. Yeah, there are a lot of very effective pieces of shit. Yep. That's kind of depressing. In writing the Turner Diaries, William Pierce ignited a movement within the far right that

is still very much present and relevant today. The next chapter will discuss, in depth, the generation of terrorists who were inspired by his words to take horrifying, bloody action. Like Christian identity theology, the Turner Diaries have influenced many people who may never have even read the book. In his manifesto, the Christchurch Mosque shooter wrote about his hope that his attack would spark renewed calls for gun control in the United States, because he believed that this would inevitably spark a new civil war.

The Pauway synagogue shooter repeated the same desire. Both of these desires are based, whether in consciously or not, on things written out in the Turner Diaries. Yeah, because they just want conflicts to spark the... And they think that guns will be central to it. Yeah. William Luther Pierce died in 2002, but his ideas live and kill to this day. The struggle between William Pierce and Willis Cartot would prove to be a microcosm of a

greater struggle within the fascist right itself. On Cartot's side are the mainstreamers. Their goal is to gain political power by pushing the Overton window further and further right in convincing more and more of their fellow Americans to adopt hardcore fascist politics. Cartot supported political parties and candidates, most notably David Duke's successful run for the Louisiana State Senate and unsuccessful run for governor, who was also a backer of Pat Buchanan. Cartot and other mainstreamers believe that the majority of white Americans can be converted

to their political ideals, so gaining power is just a matter of properly propagandizing to their fellow whites. William Pierce, on the other hand, was a vanguardist. Vanguardists believe that politics is hopeless, and the only way for their side to win is to, as in the Turner Diaries, form small, dedicated groups and bring on the collapse of society in order to take control. George Lincoln Rockwell himself is hard to pin down. He had elements of both mainstreamer and vanguardist in his writings and in his activism, but his

most direct descendants, men like William Pierce and James Mason, became two of the most influential minds in the vanguardist movement. But in the late 1970s, a new wave of fascists in neo-Nazis began to rise, popping up around the countryside like mushrooms on a rotting log. For more than a decade, they would build a potent insurgency, armed with missiles, machine guns and bombs, utterly dedicated to a single-dier mission, turning the Turner Diaries into a reality. That's what we're going to talk about in the next chapter.

Woo! That was a good chapter. I mean, they've all been good chapters, but that was fascinating. That was better than the other poop ones. Yeah, the other ones, I am going to say. But you did, you said it with how you said it. No, I only said this was a good chapter. Oh.

Oh. Oh, his garbage fell from the ceiling. I threw my garbage on the ceiling, but then it fell off. It stayed on for a second. It's not the best place to keep your recycling. How are we doing, Sophie? Okay, you guys got to plug things, Sophie says. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, we have a show too.

It's called Even More News. That's the podcast. We've got a YouTube show called Some More News. That's the YouTube show. We've got a Patreon. Go to patreon.com slash Some More News, Cody, talk about merch. We have merch now, I believe it's on T-Public, probably T-Public.com slash user slash Some More News, or just search a bunch of those words together.

And you've got stuff to buy. I'm Katie Stoll on Twitter. Yeah, I'm Dr. Mr. Cody on Twitter. No. I've got some more news, Twitter as well. Robert, what about you? Yeah. There is no place that you can currently purchase T-Search themed after this podcast, but

maybe one day. Sophie, could we get that set up? Oh, ouch, Sophie. She whispered something about the money going to him, but not her, so she doesn't care. Well, you can buy a shirt. I recommend Target. Ross is good too, if you want the shirt to be stained. Not always.

Sorry, that's Marshall's. That's Marshall's. That's Marshall's. And you can always say, I got it at Ross. I got it at Ross. DJ Max. Love saying that. I got it at DJ Max, does not have the same ring to it.

No, it does not. Different kind of ring. Cool. You ruined this show, Cody. Oh, if I bring up DJ Max? Unbelievable. Anytime you bring up DJ Max, it ruins me. I ruined the Nazi show by bringing up DJ Max.

How many times have I said, don't talk about DJ Max? I think we can all agree that DJ Max is the Nazism of discount clothing outlets. Yeah, Cody. Wow. I've been radicalized. We all are going to be radicalized at one point or another throughout this. Shots fired, TJ. It stands for.

Turner juice. No, this is a bad line. We're tired. Juice. I said juice. Juice. Turner juice. Turner.

Why are we trying to do this? I think all is gold. I want to make it worth bringing up DJ Max. It's never worth bringing up DJ Max. It might be. It might be this time. Gracefully at the end of this. Nope.

That's, Katie, the foundational ethos of this show is that nothing can be graceful. Nothing can. Well, that's good. We're a bunch of tired conks right now. The graceless behind the bastards. Behind the bastards. America's most graceless of podcasts. Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations.

In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests. It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse look like a lot of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based

on actual science and the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price? Two death sentences and a life without parole. My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Russian astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down. With the Soviet Union collapsing around him, he orbited the earth for 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.