Behind the Bastards - Part Three: Why Did Robert E. Lee Turn Traitor?

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Robert and Prop continue the story of Bobby Lee to the climax of his life: his decision to turn traitor and fight for the Confederacy.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

John Stewart is back in the host chair at The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports, and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a wonderful life is one of the most popular movies ever, but it has more to offer you than you ever thought. Do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000?

In this world where there's a lot of hopelessness, people need this movie. George Bailey was never born. During the many partaking in this one of a kind podcast experience, listen to all 10 episodes available now on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast, savegeorgebailey.com, subscribe now. I'm Duane Wade and I've been blessed to have so many titles so far in my life, but now I'm adding podcast hosts with my new podcast called The Why with Duane Wade. On this show, I will have intimate conversations with some of the biggest

names in sports, in music, in entertainment, in fashion, and we will discuss the whys in their lives. Listen to the why with Duane Wade on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast or whatever you can get your podcast. You can get your podcast. Courson Media. What's losing my civil war? I don't know. I don't know, guys. I didn't know how to, I've got one for part four. I promise you I've got one for part four,

but I didn't have one for part three. This is behind the bastards, a podcast about Robert E. Lee for the last week or so. Mr. Silver Metal Headass. Mr. I'll give him a bronze. Hallelujah, bronze. One of my favorite moments in history was the first time I got to go to Crow Nation, Montana, the little big horn sitting bull monument.

And that this whole thing for general custard, like this whole statue for it. And I'm looking at him and I'm like, this is a second place trophy. That may have lost. Like participation. You get statues for losing? Like, yeah.

Anyway. I also on a separate note, I think it's funny that we ever give out bronze metals because like gold obviously precious never tarnishes silver Lot harder to tarnish also pretty precious and then bronze like come on guys We're doing this we stopped using that shit for swords like 2,000 years ago. That's a bullshit named an age Yeah, like it means a time. Yeah, the bonds age It's named an H. Like it means a time, the Bond's H, which means it's over. Yeah, we'll give Robert E. Lee a bronze medal.

He's a bronze. Welcome back to the show everybody. My guest is again, Jason Petty, AKA Prop. In our first two episodes, we established the background and life of Robert E. Lee. In part two, we talked about some pretty fucking unpleasant stuff. And today we're answering the question,

we're getting into kind of the critical moment of Bobby Lee's life, right? Which is his decision to become a traitor, to go back on his oath to the United States and his oath of loyalty in service to the military and become a fucking traitor. So that's what we're talking about today. I don't think he's a Bobby.

I think he's a Robbie. You think he's a Robbie? We're going Robbie instead. We're going Robbie instead, because I like to call you Bobby-E, and I don't wanna associate- Yeah, but I hate being called that. Yeah, but that's what's fun about it.

And I don't want the association. So I think he's a Robbie because he's also, he robs, he sucks. He does, he does suck. And it couldn't be, it couldn't be a better time to talk about this, especially with what's going on in the Supreme Court about like, hey, what is, what is treason? What is treason? What's a traitor?

Yeah. This law only applies to everyone except for the highest office. I'm sorry. What? Yeah. With Robert, it's at least stay a clearer case of trees. Pretty clear. Because there's really no other way to look at this.

But we do get- Yeah, I don't know, buddy. This article three is about you, fam. Yeah. The law exists because of y'all. It's not a hard question, like as to whether or not this guy's guilty. And it's one of those things where,

within kind of the lost cause mythology and within all of like the coverage of Lee's life that sort of influenced by lost cause shit, this always still gets softened. It's weird. We have this like hatred in the United States of actually calling traders, traders, if they're like white conservatives.

And that does actually extend to Bobby Lee. Like I just said, it was very clear, but people still do this shit. And to kind of make that case, I'm gonna start again by reading from our huge head on the cover children's book, Who Was Robert E. Lee? Which I'm giving these books some shit. They're actually not that bad.

There's actually a decent amount of really good historic information. And they come across as like pretty negative towards the Confederacy. Why I keep bringing them up is because they still include these bits like this one where they're introducing the concept of like the Civil War that we had that killed about a million people and Robert's participation in it. And this is how they describe it.

Robert grew up with a great love for his country. Yet in 1861, the country he so admired was torn apart by the start of the Civil War. Robert was torn too. He61 the country he so admired was torn apart by the start of the Civil War Robert was torn too. He wanted the country to remain united He did not want the South to break away from the United States and form a separate country but that is what happened and What they're doing there they're using that like special Exonerative case of like English grammar that you normally use for police or the IDF where it's like the country was torn apart. Listen, who who torn it apart? Yeah, who made that decision? Why was it torn apart? You know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A kid in Chicago walked into a police officer's bullet.

Like, yeah, how did that happen? Yeah, exactly that. And I'm like, dude, just hearing them say it, it's like, I made the mistake because again, the child of a rather militant man that I thought, yo, children need to know as quick as possible when they ready to know the world they about to step into. So I had no problem. I feel terrible about it now, showing my third grade daughter images of the middle passage. And what slave ships and how it looked and how we was laid out, I had no problem showing her it is. My wife was like, Jason, she's eight years old.

Maybe there's a more sanitized way to reveal this truth to her. And I was like, it's not sanitized. You can't clean up evil, right? So I was like, no, you gotta tell him. Now, second time around, having another child, I was like, yeah, this is probably an age-appropriate way to lay out this. So I'm saying that to say,

and on one hand, the big hit books is like, this is for children, there's gotta be a more age, there's gotta be an age appropriate way to say what's going on. My argument is, I don't know if that's what they doing though. Like that's more loss-causing and sanitized way to do it, you know? Yeah, yeah, it really is.

And I'm frustrated by this, but it also, it's so consistent among the way people talk about Lee. And I go, you know, there is one thing I do kind of, I think is appropriate about this, although I don't think it means to be, which is one of the ways you do have to look at, from the perspective of people like Lee, and Lee is, he's going to be an active player, obviously, in the treason of the South, but he's not up until

the point that secession crisis starts, right? He's not a guy who's in politics. He's not a guy who's advocating for secession prior to that. And for people like him, which is most of the country, I think there is actually a little bit in the way in which all of this comes on like a storm, like a weather pattern. And I think that those of us sitting in the country right now watching shit escalate to who knows what the fuck's gonna happen

later this year with the election. You can, too, some extent empathize with like, yeah, these massive civil conflicts that up to a certain point, it's a small chunk of the country that's actively ratcheting things towards calamity. And for the rest of us, just trying to make rent, trying to live your life, it does feel like a fucking storm hitting, right?

I don't say that to take any agency away from him, but I found myself kind of torn between those two things, where I was just like, I do kind of feel like that sometimes. Like it's a weather pattern that just moved in and you have to just kind of brace for it. Bro, I feel you man. Yeah. When we get into the Lost Cause episodes,

the, I mean, I keep coming back to this, but the more that I say it, as much as I am a victim of that shit, it is, it's so human. Like the way that it snowballed into being what it's become, it's a human. And then if you're not one of the creators of it, it's just, you're just, you just happen to live in Tuscaloosa.

You know what I'm saying? You're just like, I mean, this is the air we breathe. It's so human. Yeah, which- And that's kind of the only bits from Lee that are a little bit understandable where he's writing back to his family

as like stuff is escalating towards open violence. And it's like, I can't believe this is happening. Like why is no one stopping this? Where it's like he's on the wrong side of it. But that basic and is like, I can't believe this is happening. Like why is no one stopping this? Where it's like he's on the wrong side of it. But that basic emotion of like, how the fuck is this happening? I do actually understand to a degree. Of course.

Yeah, it's just, it's one of those things. I'm reading right now the book, Nixonland again, which covers like this massive period, this very undercover period in US history where there was this unbelievable wave of violence towards the anti-war movement. People assassinated and murdered for handing out pamphlets against the Vietnam War in the streets.

It happened over and over again. And there's almost a degree which it's comforting, not because that's good, because it's terrible that that happened, but because when I hear about the wave of violence that's hitting us now, particularly over like the anti-war and Gaza movement, just to know that like, all right,

well, this isn't a historic novelty. This is something that happens again and again. And I guess just knowing people made it, like went through that before, it's not good, but it is like, okay, we're not living an unprecedented time. So you know. Anyway, so in other words,

while Lee is going to exercise a huge amount of agency from kind of the start of hostilities on afterwards, he is kind of carried along by the tide of history in the couple of years prior to things. And he's going to spend the lead up to the 1860 election actually in San Antonio, watching the Democratic Party shatter in the face of Lincoln's campaign and this debate over what to do about slavery. And it's this very interesting moment where he is like put

into conflict with secessionists. We don't, this isn't really a period of lead that I thought about, but like he is a federal officer in a state that is actively preparing to secede and he becomes the target of secessionist anger, right? Because he's this representative of the federal government that he's gonna wind up fighting against, but that hasn't happened yet. And so it puts him in this very conflicted position.

The New York Times kind of echoing Lee's own thoughts in this period, writes that extremists in the Democratic Party were delighted at the idea of a Lincoln victory, quote, which will give them an opportunity to rally the South in favor of disillusion. In other words, secessionists are being written about and discussed by the centrists of the day

as much as accelerationists are today, right? Where there's this like attitude that, well, a lot of secessionists want Lincoln to win because they think it's going to inevitably provoke this conflict that we have to have, right? Yeah. And Lee is diehard against Lincoln, obviously, but he's, and he's against Lincoln in part because he wants, he thinks that like he agrees with the accelerationists, basically. He doesn't want Lincoln to win like the accelerationists do, but he agrees that if Lincoln wins,

the conflict is inevitable. Right? There's this thing, like I'm thinking about, I get this. Sometimes I get this like antsy feeling like it's it's very unique to my career. But like when you're backstage at like a big event or a festival or a concert and you see all the wires, yeah, like all over there. Like I'm like, I'm antsy that I'm like, let's just get it over with and someone pull a cord. Like just rip it up, just get it over with.

Like just somebody do it, somebody destroy it. Like, or like if, you know, or like some more violent stuff when you're just like, let's just fight, let's just do it. Like waiting for it's worse. It's like, let's just, let's just fight. You know what I mean? Yeah.

When you've been in a lot of violent situations, you understand this intimately, which is that bracing for impact is worse than impact. It's worse. Right? Yes. Yes. It's more stressful. It's not necessarily worse because you can die from impact.

Yeah. But it's more fighting about it. Right? Your fear, you're just like, let's just do it. Let's get it over with. It's the same reason most Americans are more scared of being on a plane than they are driving, even though you're a thousand times

in more danger while driving, but you're in control of the car, at least theoretically, right? Now realistically, are you in control of some drunk guy smashing into your fucking miata? No, of course not. But in your head at least, you're behind the wheel as opposed to sitting in a jet

where you're much safer, but you have no agency on what's going to happen, right? And that is like most of the country, including Robert E. Lee at this point. And for him, it is particularly, I'm not trying to say like empathize with him, but you need to understand where his head is. Right after Lincoln wins,

South Carolina authorizes a secession convention. And this really sparks secession fever across the South where Lee is a federal representative. And he writes home to his family, the lone star is floating all over this state as Texan independence becomes, the people are like putting up lone star flags around the fort that he's at, right?

And that's a threat, right? You know, the Texas. Yeah, that's actually kind of pretty poetic to say it like that, the lone star is floating all over the state. And I'm like, I hate that that's kind threat, right? You know, the Texas. Yeah, that's actually kind of pretty poetic to say it like that. The long stars floating all over the state. And I'm like, I hate that that's kind of poetic jerk. He's not a terrible writer. Most people were better writers back then, because you kind of had to be.

Most people who could write. Yeah. The discourse around all this was as detached from reality as it is today, with one text and paper shrieking, the North has gone overwhelmingly, for Negro equality and Southern vassalage. Southern men, will you submit to this degradation? Oh, so it is about, oh, whoa, so it is about the Negro.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. You just, there was no debate about that at the time. Yeah, exactly. So it's about, so it's about the, okay, got it. Yeah. It really is some like white lives matter shit, right? Very much so. Yeah, and so by December, Texas has started its own secession convention and Lee when this happens he writes home to his wife and he's basically like yeah if they succeed I will

head home, you know, I will I will like return I promise and he's because she's worried he's gonna get killed by some Texans, you know, that's not an unrealistic threat It started in Fort Sumter, but it could have started in Texas There's no reason it for it not to have you know Yeah, and so while Lee is in conflict with the secession is at this point He's also it's also very clear from his letters that he was open even at early stage, to the idea of fighting against the United States and breaking his oath. He expressed to his wife a desire to fight under no other flag than the Star Spangled Banner,

but he also said, I would fight in defense of Virginia. And what else could that mean but secession, right? Yeah, totally, yeah. And it's this, the fact that he always phrases it that way, is evidence of a kind of wishy-washiness that is belied by his claims to be anti-succession. Because while successionists are preaching nothing but revolution,

and he says like, I think that's irresponsible, but he also consistently says, I would fight in defense of Virginia. He just doesn't have the courage to admit, I am in fact willing to succeed. Yeah, you came in it, you know? Yeah, just say it, bro. Like it is what it is.

And maybe it's like, yeah, like the, not to give him any grace, but just the piece of him that's like, still kind of think this is stupid, but I'm definitely down. So like, this is the way I can make my brain get around it. Yeah. I kind of have more respect for that like random random those like assholes in the Texas paper who are like, this is a wall for white equality and we'll fight it. Because at least they're like, yeah, you're you're you're being honest about what you're willing to do, you know.

This is what we're doing. Lee is just kind of pussyfooting around it. Yeah. And this continues. This is like a Lee family tradition because Fitzhugh Lee's book, which I've quoted from several times, written in I think 1896, makes it clear that Lee's decision to join the Confederacy wasn't just something he did

because he felt there were no other options. It was based on his fundamental sympathy for the Southern cause, which is the cause of slavery. Lee wrote, quote, "'The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North. As you say, I feel the aggression and I am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit.

As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and her institutions, and would defend any state if her rights were invaded. And it's like, yeah, no, you wouldn't. You would not because you could have. You would not defend a state in which slavery was illegal, or if the fugitive slave acts were forced on it, right? Which they were. You are not willing to actually defend any state.

You're willing to defend states who want to have slaves. That's what you're willing to defend. The thought hasn't crossed my mind till literally right now that he could have fought for the union. Yeah. That was an option. And in fact, Lee is a full bird colonel by the time the war starts.

There were nine full bird colonels from Virginia at the start of the Civil War, eight of them sided with the Union. Wow. Like, could it, yeah. Yeah, that like, that just knocked the wind at all. Like, oh no, no fam. You, you all,

Who could do more into that in a second? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I was like, so you telling me all the homies, all, like, oh no, no fam. You, all the homies- Look at that. More into that in a second. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I was like, so you telling me all the homies, all of them. Yeah. You went like, so you, you going against the grain. So you standing on your own going against the grain. Mm-hmm. And you had an option and you try to tell me

he was conflicted about this? No, no, no fam. As we'll get into, it's always portrayed as like, well he just felt like he had no option. You know, once Virginia was involved, that's where his heart was that's where he had to go that's not true well first of all he lived in Texas number one yeah so yeah we'll get to that yeah yeah yeah 11 states voted to secede from the union

they did so under declarations that the heart of the issue they were seceding over was slavery right yeah South Carolina cited in their secession and they're the first state to do it, cites in their secession declaration and increasing hostility on the part of non-slave holding states to the institution of slavery. In Mississippi's declaration of secession, they stated, quote,

there was no choice less to us but submission to the mandates of abolition or a dissolution of the union, which is both untrue in what the whole crisis is about. Because like Lincoln, by the way, had absolutely no intention of ending slavery. There was a desire to stop the expansion of it to new states, right? He was not going, it's very clear. He was not willing to do that.

He was not that based. Now it is worth noting that Lee's sympathy for the Southern cause still did not entirely at this point rule out the chance that he might fight for the Union. And in fact, if the war had started in Texas rather than at Fort Sumter, I think he probably would have sided with the Union purely because Lee is this kind of guy. Again, he is willing to eventually resign his commission and take up one in Virginia to fight for the Confederacy. But if secessionists had marched on the fort where he was stationed in Texas to try to take their shit, he probably would have fought them.

Purely because that was his job. Probably would have taken a personal, yeah. That was his job, you know? That was his job, you know? It was his job and like, how dare you, fuck y'all doing, how dare y'all run up on me? You know what, because you running up on me, yeah. Yeah, and that is kind of an interesting counterfactual

if he would have like wound up against his will, fighting against who would have been the new, maybe Jackson or somebody who would have been the new Lee of the Confederacy. Yeah, no stone wall. And it's interesting, like again, I don't give him like much moral credit for that, but I think it is a possibility for a while.

However, fairly quickly it becomes not possible because like not long after he writes, you know, some of these letters back to his wife, he's relieved of duty at Fort Mason in San Antonio and sent to Washington to report to the head of the U.S. Army. His journey north was awkward to say the least. The Texas Rangers were out in force

and federal officials who were leaving Texas, because this is, he's part of kind of a flight where the government's like, well, we should probably get our people out of here. Like this is Because this is, he's part of kind of a flight where the government's like, well, we should probably get our people out of here. Like this is, this is, there's a good chance this is gonna go bad. It's all bad, y'all. Like they not feeling this.

Yeah. He's not quite escorted under guard the entire way, but he and the others who are kind of like bouncing are watched pretty carefully. And he's concerned enough for his safety that in short order when he starts his journey, he changes into civilian clothes. One colleague at the time claims that he, quote,

declared that the position he held was a neutral one and that he intended to go home, resign from the army and plant corn. The website American Heritage writes, quote, when he drove away from Texas, a fellow officer called after him, Colonel, do you intend to go south or remain north? Lee stuck his head out of the covered wagon

and replied, I shall never bear arms against the United States, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case, I will not prove recreate to my duty. In another moment of surprise, Confliction Lee confusedly declared, well, I wish to do what is right. I am unwilling to do what is not,

either at the bidding of the south or the north. So he just, he can't, he's just kind of a, kind of gormless. He can't make, take us, he's always saying, I will fight for the Confederacy if it comes to that. But he's also never willing to say, yeah, I'm willing to turn traitor, right? Like it is such a weasley thing for a man who's so

got-lawed for his courage. Yeah, it's when snitches and rats keep going, but I'm not a rat, I'm not a snitch. And I'm like, you're currently snitching. At this very moment, you are snitching. That makes you a rat. It's like the difference between these January 6th insurrectionists who are like,

oh, it was Antifa, I got tricked. It was just, we were just sightseeing. And the ones who were like, yeah, it was an insurrection. And like, I'll go to prison. I respect that. You know, they're not good people and I want them stopped. But like, that is at least someone who's taking a stand and be honest about the stand they're taking.

Yeah, you got a code, man. I would say as a side note for everybody's life kit, I think one of those things is, yes, you should have a code. There should be, you should all, and I can't tell you what that code things is, yes, you should have a code. There should be a, you should all, and I can't tell you what that code is, but you should all live by a code. To me, one of my core values is I say what I mean. You know what I mean?

So that's like a code for me that like, and you stand on business. If I said something and it was wrong, look, I said it. You know what I mean? Now it's time for me to be corrected. You feel me? And I'm gonna take reaction correction because I don't like being wrong.

But another thing I've learned in going back to something that Robert E. Lee did, which was like realizing when it's probably time to slide. We should probably leave right now. I say this in jest, but I'm dead serious. You should know when it's time to leave. Yeah, there's a good song about that and about poker. You know, you gotta know when to fold them. You gotta know when to walk away, know when to run. Hey homie, I think it's time for us to go.

I don't give you, in the middle of giving your best game to that cutie pie. Like look, it's time to go fam. You halfway through the greatest cocktail you ever had in your life, sent that drink down. There's a good bit in heat about that too, right? If you're gonna be a fucking criminal, right? You have to have a line at which like,

no, I just bounce, I pick up my bag and I'm gone. Yeah, it's time to go, yeah. It's time to fucking go. Just leave everything, leave it all, time to go. Yeah, it's time to fucking go. Just leave everything, leave it all. Time to go. Yeah, yeah. And Lee has now left it all. I was trying to make that work, but it just it simply did not. But you know what does work prop? The sponsors of this podcast, they're always working hard to give you incredible value.

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily Show, which value. can all get behind. Listen to The Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, ah, ah, we're fucked. Shadooby, shadooby dooby what? Hi, I'm Chris Turni, and if you're like me, it's easy to read all the bad news about the climate and just think, we're f***ed. That's why I've started a new podcast called Unf***ing the Future. Every episode will speak

to someone taking on the climate crisis in a clever way, like the filmmaker Adam McKay. We're dealing with just a gargantuan force and the number one thing I've been trying to do through the whole thing is just keep my sense of humor. The guest list is amazing. UN Goodwill Ambassador Sabrina Elba, Climate Activist Bill McKibben, and Maggie Baird. We even have Bill Nye the Science Guy. If you go into this thinking,

we're gonna get overwhelmed and lose, then we will. Tight it out, people. Listen to I'm F***ing the Future on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're on F***ing the Future. I'm Jason Flom, and you're Maggie Freeling.

Hey, Jason. Every day we learn about another person who shouldn't be in prison. 58 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. So glad you're home. If you want to be part of this work, listen to Wrongful Conviction. The podcast where we hand the mic to innocent people to hear their stories. How do you send someone innocent to prison?

Listen to new episodes of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling and Jason Flam on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. You know, I was thinking about what my line is, you know, where am I? And honestly, I only have one moral line in my entire life. And it's that I will not sell baldness cures. You know, I respect that dude. Simply won't do it. Just be honest.

And the truth is like dude, you can look good bald. Like I can Google so many men who like... Patrick Stewart. They're good looking men, yes. Come on, just commit. Just commit, bro. Like you look better. You can own it. Like listen, it's almost 70% confidence.

If you just rock it, whatever you have, rock it. Yeah, that's the message of this podcast. Yeah, it's all confidence. Lee comes back, returns to DC, and he reports immediately to the commander of the US Army at this point, General Winfield Scott, who had been his commander during the Mexican-American War.

Scott is the guy who's like, Lee is the best soldier I've ever seen, right? And by the way, Lee is pretty famous at this point. And there is huge buzz as it becomes clear that something is going to happen that's probably going to require military intervention as a result of the succession crisis. Like LeBron James, like where you going?

Are you going to take your talents to Miami? Like who's he going to play with? Because Winfield Scott is too old. Everyone knows like, and Scott knows this too. Unlike today, old people back then were like, Scott's like, yeah, I can't fight a war. Like, not another one. Like I'm ancient. Oh no, guys.

These knees ain't what they used to be. And so there's a lot of talk that like, well who should command whatever we wind up needing to do? And like Lee is kind of the front runner. Cause he's like, he's famous. He did really well in the Mexican-American war. He's a full bird colonel. So he's like right at the point

where he could be promoted to general. So there's a lot of talk in the papers that like, well this guy could be kind of the savior of the union, you know, he really has talked about that way for a while. And so he gets invited to Winfield Scott's office and Scott and then there's a couple of different meetings. But the gist of these meetings is that Lee has offered the command of a US field army.

So that means a promotion to general. And this is what he's been waiting his whole career for years. He's been writing his wife letters being like, I don't think I'll ever get promoted. This is so annoying. And he's offered the promotion of a lifetime. And this is kind of seen as a fast track to,

well, yeah, there's pretty good chance this in not too much longer leads with him just in command of the US army. He could have had Grant's job. Maybe he wouldn't have been good at it. I actually think he would have been bad at it. We'll get into that in part four. But he could have had it for a while, right?

Damn. So the most commonly depicted view at the heart of the lost cause is that he turns down this job because he simply couldn't bear to go to war with his home and his relatives. And like, that is not a good reason to support the Confederacy. but I actually will say, I get how a decent person could say,

I cannot participate in this war because I simply can't shoot at my brother or cousins, right? Like, that's understandable. I could see that. And then be like, and also, I find the cause of the South to be untenable. Sure. And, but like, man, really like history really turns

on these like seemingly small decisions sometimes. Cause like, that's a, like you said, that's a very logical and understandable thing. And then, but then if you're like, you're like seventh generation war general going all the way back to like the freaking norms, like the founding of England. You know what I'm saying? And now probably the biggest war

in the history of your country, they're giving you a chance to lead and you're just gonna sit out. It's like you can't sit out it, you know what I'm saying? Cause then you just broke tradition. Yeah. And he's not going to. And I think that the key point is that like, this is portrayed as Lee had to go with the South

because he couldn't fight against Virginia and he couldn't fight against his family. And that is not true. There were men who were in that position and there were some officers in the US Army prior to the war who didn't fight at all because of that, right? Yeah, they were like, I can't do it. And I don't have an issue with that actually.

Like I get, this is just an impossible choice for me. I can't shoot my brother. That's what I'm saying. Like it should have been. If he's like, if that was the case, that's what should have been. But I'm saying the wrinkle in his brain is like, well, I'm not gonna be the first grandson

to not, you know what I'm saying? Like I ain't gonna break this tradition, you know? And he doesn't. And I wanna to give you kind of how these sympathetic sources tend to portray this decision. I want to quote from again who was Robert E. Lee describing his decision not to take this position commanding a US field army. That would mean fighting against the South.

Robert was a conflicted man. Clearly, he had a lot to think about. He spent time with his family at Arlington. He prayed. He stayed up late at night pacing the floors. In the end, Robert reached an answer. He would resign from the US Army that he had served for 30 years Although he said he would never bear arms against the Union his heart was with Virginia

He had to defend his homeland by bearing arms against the Union, right? It doesn't sound Yeah, that's that's sentence don't even sound right. Yeah, and also side note I feel like at some point you should be able to like slap the shit out of a cousin. Yeah I feel like at some point you should be able to like slap the shit out of a cousin. Yeah This scenario is like, all right, I'm listen, let's go to granny's house and let's hash this out You know I'm saying like I'm gonna say all my uncles all my cousins down and be like fellas Y'all like listen you're tripping and if you can't cross this line listen I'm gonna sign up with the union cuz like I'm telling you right now, you're tripping. All right, you don't say it.

This is again, kind of what I'm building towards. He's going to make that decision one way or the other. The idea that he wasn't willing to fight his family is untrue because he does choose to fight members of his family. But the summary of events from that, who was Robert E. Lee book jives with one of the on the ground accounts from somebody who was present at some of these meetings with Lee and

Scott and Lincoln, right? Montgomery Blair, who's Lincoln's postmaster general, the guy who has been asked by Lincoln to like offer Lee command of the army. And his son would later recall, quote, generally said to my father, Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I own the four million of slaves in the South, I would sacrifice them all to the union. But how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state? Now, this is, you know, from a secondhand source, but Blair will make some statements

that back up this account of events and Lee's account of events. However, that's not necessarily the truth because we get a very different description of both the nature of the offer made to Lee and his response to it from Simon Cameron, who was the secretary of war under Lincoln and absolutely would have been a part of this,

discussions with Lee from the jump. Quote, generally called upon a gentleman who had my entire confidence and intimated that he would like to have the command of the army. He assured that gentleman who was a man in the confidence of the administration of his entire loyalty and his devotion to the interests of the administration and of the country. I consulted with General Scott, and General Scott approved of placing him at the head of the army. The place was offered to him unofficially, with my approbation, and

with the approbation of General Scott. It was accepted by him verbally, with the promise that he would go into Virginia and settle his business and then come back to take command. He never gave us an opportunity to arrest him. He deserted under false pretenses. I should have arrested him in a moment if I had the chance at him. And I have always regretted that I never did get

that chance. I think he behaved worse than any of the men who have acted so treacherously to the government. And what, so Blair's account is that like, yeah, I offered him the job and he said, I just can't do it. I can't fight against Virginia, which is like the common narrative. It's what you get for everything. What Cameron says is like, no, no, no, Lee said, I want this job. Give it to me. We said the job is yours. He said, I'll take it. And

then he said, I just got to go back home and settle some b**** out. And he b**** out and turn traitor. And he did this. he lied to them to avoid getting arrested for treason. That's a really fucking different story, right? So yeah, yeah, that is some hoe ass shit. Yeah. One of these shows a man torn by this, just the impossible choice to fight against your family

and your state. The other shows a betrayer of his oath making a calculated decision, you know? Yeah. Weak, and I will say, we simply don't know which of these stories comports more with reality, right? We never will, you know? There's actually, these are not even the only two accounts

of that meeting. I think these are kind of the two, one of these two is probably more right than the other. I will say, I tend to believe what fucking Simon Cameron says because it comports with how weasely Lee is about his description of all this. Yeah, and the path of Lee's resistance. Like, you don't like, no one wants that type of confrontation

to have to like, you know, grow some ovaries and be like, yo, this my, I'm a stand on business, this what I'm gonna do, thank you very much, I gotta ride with Virginia. You know what I'm saying? Or to be like, you know what dude, you're right, I'm gonna do this, let me at least look my family in the face and tell them what's going on. Because both of them requires a certain type of courage.

Again, a code, it requires you to have a code to be able to be like, I'm just gonna do it and I'm gonna take whatever consequences come with it. No, the path of least resistance is to lie. You know what I'm saying? Is to make y'all cool, get out of this moment right now. And then which one of y'all I feel like are gonna hurt me the worst, right?

So because if my family actually heard me say yes to them, right, they would have been like, stop acting. No, what do you mean? Yes. And you can't be like, no, no, I'm just lying to them. Because then they're going to look at you and be like, why are you being a coward about it? Like, stand up. You know what I'm saying? So he did the path of least resistance, which to me is the most normal thing. Yeah. And in terms of backing up Simon Cameron's account, in his biography of Lee, Alan Guelzo notes that Lee has to have known secession was coming and have already made his choice to fight against the union.

Otherwise his actions here simply don't make any sense. Quote, if Lee believed there would be no conflict that some way would have been found to save the country from the calamities of war, then there would have been no risk in his mind that he would have to conduct any kind of hostile campaign and certainly not against Virginia. And the golden prize of his professional life would fall neatly into his lap. So again, if he even from this point, if he has not already made the decision to turn trader, why would he turn down the proportion he'd already wanted?

Right? Yeah, that actually makes so much sense. Like you say it, because it's like, if you already know, we're not going to really go to war, then dude, take the job. You know what I'm saying? Take your dream job, bro. Yeah, take it. That's what you always wanted. And it's like, oh, cool, we figured it out. And then it's like, yeah, problem solved. I didn't have to fight against my, I didn't have to fight against my family. I didn't have to pretend like I, you know, am loyal to anything. I just got the job and it's all good. Now the idea that Lee just loved Virginia so much, she had no choice. This is how it was depicted to me

as a kid in Texas public schools, right? And it was, it was, the way this was framed to me is that like, this is how everybody felt, right? Nationalism was not what it is now, what it would become. People just weren't that loyal first to the US. They were loyal to their state and that's how everybody felt.

And so it was inevitable that a guy like Lee would side with Virginia and this is not fucking true. This is simply not accurate to the way people were at the time. Wellzo puts paid to this very inaccurate view in a succinct passage from Robert E. Lee a life. The Lees however prominent they had been in Virginia life, were mostly nationalists, federalists, and wigs. Moreover, Virginia had not strictly speaking been Lee's native state for most of his life. His youth from the time the family moved to Alexandria had been spent within what were then the boundaries of the District of Columbia, and his professional responsibilities had scattered him for 30 years from Texas to New York. Arlington was his home, but not his property,

and its facing across the Potomac River towards the capital was a constant reminder of where the Custises always saw their loyalties residing. In other words, his family politics were nationalist. His personal politics were nationalist and he barely fucking spent any time in goddamn Virginia. Now, so funny. An account by Edward Townsend,

who's the assistant adjutant to Winfield Scott and a witness to Lee's visit with the general, gives a quote by Lee that reinforces his decision was made by the financial realities of his family, more than some kind of loyalty. This is Lee talking to Scott. General, the property belonging to my children, all they possess lies in Virginia. They will be ruined if they do not go with their state. I cannot raise a hand against my children. All they possess lies in Virginia. They will be ruined if they do not go with their state. I cannot raise a hand against my children." Now, first off, as we'll cover, that's still not true. But also, if that is an accurate quote, that puts Lee's primary concern being the wealth of his kids and how it's threatened by war.

Which makes the most sense. Yeah. Which makes the most sense, right? And is the least defensible. Yeah. Especially if you was willing to keep them slaves on there after your own father or your own father-in-law was like, yo, you got to let them go. Yeah. You know, he's like, nah, man, I'm, look, we gonna make sure, we gonna make sure the legacy stays on. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that said, property still can't explain all of this because Arlington can't explain all of this because Arlington is not just a valuable piece of land, it is strategically critical. From Arlington, you can shell DC. That means the Union cannot allow Arlington to wind up in control of the Confederacy. And given just the way that things

are laid out, it's also Arlington happens to be an area the Union can very easily get a lot of soldiers to faster. Lee is not an idiot on military matters. He knows the Confederacy simply is not going to be able to protect Arlington at the early stage of the war. And Lee is also aware of the North's superiority in manpower and manufacturing capacity. When the war breaks out, his first thing he does is he orders his wife to flee the property. So he can't just be concerned about what's going to happen to Arlington and be making

his decisions based on that. Otherwise he would have stayed with the Union because that's, you know, wise this thing. Unless the property he's most concerned about is slaves, right? Yes. Yes. You know? Now Lee also tells one of his classmates from West Point, I would give it Arlington in a moment and all I have on earth, if the union could be preserved in peace.

Which again, means that either way, whichever of these is true, he's lying to somebody, right? If he's willing to give up Arlington to preserve the union, fear that secessionists would take it can't be the driving force behind his decision. And if he's willing to give up Arlington to preserve the union, then why doesn't he, right? Like, why does that influence his decision at all? As I noted earlier, the most understandable conflict that Lee expressed was an unwillingness to fight against his family. But that's also not something he could have avoided because a lot of his family stay loyal. Now, John Fitzgerald Lee remains in service to the Union Army as a judge advocate general

throughout the war. Samuel Phillips Lee, a Navy man, also stays loyal. As does Robert E. Lee's cousin, Robert Jones. His cousin, John Upsher, stays loyal despite what he referred to as tremendous pressure from the Lee family, possibly also including Robert. So again, when you're talking about like this impossible decision not to fight your family,

a bunch of his families stay loyal. And they talk about how the traitors in their family, like I have a lot of respect for John Upsher. Your whole family saying, no, we are going to fight against the union. We have to defend Virginia sovereignty. And you say, no, I'm gonna stay loyal to my oath. That's a fucking honorable decision.

That's tough. Do you know, so he's the actual it. That's crazy. A fucking hero. That's the hero in a story that's like. Yard tricking. Yeah. Is moral courage. Right. Wow. Wow. And I haven't even gotten to the end of the lease, who stay loyal. Right.

Do Lawrence Williams, one of his wife's cousins is aid to camp to George McClellan, who's got gonna wind up running the whole fucking show for a while. It is- So that little imaginary story of like, that I made up where it's like, okay, I'm gonna go talk to my family and be like, look guys, I'm gonna do this.

They're all going, yeah, us too. A bunch of them. Yeah, they're all like, yeah, we're staying at, what are you talking about? Of course we're staying at the union. This is not just one or two. This is a significant chunk of the Lee family stays loyal. Yeah, they're like, we surprised you even have to ask. Yeah. Now, it is often noted that a lot of Lee's loyalty to his family,

his own willingness to fight them is because he has all these cousins who support his family after his father dies. They support his mom. And he's like, these people, they kept us, you know, afloat and fed and sheltered in the most difficult part. I simply can't fight them. I can't betray them. My loyalty is to them, right? This is something that Lee expresses and it is a lie because one of the cousins who supports his family,

who keeps it, like the cousin who like gives a huge amount of money to his mother to keep her afloat is Philip Findall, right? Fendall not only stays loyal, but both of his two sons fight in the Union Army against Robert E. Lee. American heritage continues, quote, with great reluctance, Smith Lee became a Confederate naval officer where he served without enthusiasm and as late in September 1863, still pitched into those responsible for getting us into this snarl, saying that both the Lees and his in-laws had pressured him with ideas that Virginia came first, he grumbled, South Carolina be hanged. How would it I want to stay in the old Navy?

So there's even Lees that turned traitor and are like, I can't believe I let you guys pressure me into this. This was the worst decision of my fucking life. Fuck all of you. Now, it is true that Robert E. Lee's three sons decided to fight for the Confederacy. However, none of them stated a position on secession until after Robert E. Lee made his decision. And based on what we know of them and just what we know about his family, I don't think any of them would have chosen to fight for the Confederacy if Lee had stayed loyal. That simply wouldn't have happened. There's no way his sons do that, right? They were waiting for their dad to make a call.

I don't think there's any validity in the claim that he had to fight for the Confederacy because he couldn't fight his own sons. Like he has a bunch of... This is the most fucked up part. It's not just a bunch of, this is the most fucked up part. It's not just a bunch of cousins. His sister, Ann Lee Marshall, lives in Baltimore and strenuously supports the Union cause. Her husband, William Marshall, is a Republican delegate

who nominates Lincoln to the presidency during that year's RNC. Lee, Robert E. Lee writes one of his last letters before the war to his sister Anne. And he again, this is such a fucking cowardly passage. I'm going to read this last letter to his sister, where he's basically saying, yeah, you know, this thing that you know is horrible and wrong, I'm going to do it. Quote, I am grieved at my inability to see you and abhor myself more than ever for not having visited you. Now, this had been

well without his power to do. He was too busy playing footsie with Scott and Lincoln as the nation leached towards disaster. He admits to his sister, there's no necessity for Virginia to secede, but then claims, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. And again, this is bullshit. And he's saying I couldn't raise my hand against my relatives to his sister. To my sister. Who is going to raise his hand against?

Yes, yeah. He concludes this scumb-fuck passage. I know you will blame me, but you must think as kindly of me as you can and believe that I have endeavored to do what I thought right to show you the feeling and struggle it has cost me. I send a copy of my letter to General Scott, which accompanied my letter of resignation. I have no time for more."

And like... Man, don't even like... Don't send that letter. Like, just look, man. Like whatever you try to do to scrub your little conscious clean like keep it bro. Turns out I suck sis. Sorry Yeah Like yeah, who like it's totally like man you ever had somebody apologize to you and you thinking man Who who is this for like you're not you're not doing this for me?

You know I'm saying this you are doing that for yourself and all of us can hear it That's some bullshit. We can all hear his bullshit I hope you have brain your brain has twisted into a pretzel enough to make you feel like you justified in what you're doing Because you show like do nothing to me. Yeah. Yeah, and for her credit and by the way pretty based She never forgives her brother good She does like respond to this letter and she never talks to him again. She dies in 1864 without attempting to resume contact. Part of this is because her son, Lewis,

serves in the Union Army fighting against Robert E. Lee. Again, his fucking nephew. Yeah, you finna murder your own nephew, my son. We're done. Of course we're done. We're done. And you had a choice. Like, that's the part that's like, I'm like really newly

getting angry about. To where I was like, you had a choice. Yeah. Yeah. It is fucking vile. And I think in the end, again, it's not purely his property that he's doing this for, because he knows he's likely to lose Arlington.

It's certainly not because he's unwilling to fight against his family, because he definitely does that. Now, I think to an extent, the idea that he can't bear fighting against Virginia is true, but not in the way the lost cause biographies make it seem. Because despite never expressing particular loyalty to Virginia over the union before,

once a conflict breaks out over slavery, he is willing to stand in defense of that institution and of white supremacy, even though it meant drawing arms against his own blood relatives. And this passage from American heritage makes it clear how central the conflict over slavery is to his reasoning. He resented the North's badgering and feared Southern impotence at the hands of its majority population. He spoke out for the Crittenden compromise, which would have guaranteed the permanent existence of slavery, declaring it deserved the support of every patriot. Even though the nation had been designed around perpetual union, he told Daughter Agnes,

if the bond could only be maintained by the sword in Bayonet, its existence will lose all interest to me. And the fact that secession could only be carried out by the sword in the bayonet does not seem to have occurred to him. Likewise, he's not troubled by the fact that slavery can only be kept in place by violence, which he knows because he's done that. Yeah. Like it is so fucked up. Yeah.

So fucked up. Yeah. There is a piece of me, like if I'm being self-reflective that is having to continue to remind myself that to keep zooming out and saying, we're still talking about my family here. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like we're still talking about the institution of slavery.

I'm getting into the story and stuff like that. And then I'm almost even more resentful to this guy that you're even making me forget that sometimes. Like that I'm forgetting like, like forgetting to couch this in the reality of, we're still talking about chattel slavery here. Yeah. And it makes me even more pissed at him. On April 20th, a delegation of secessionists showed up at his home to ask Lee to travel to

Richmond where they're having their big secessionist conference. Virginia is like late in deciding this. And actually, they have a one vote to secede that fails. Like, it actually was kind of possible that, like, Virginia might not have gone with the Confederacy or might have tried kind of a new that's not what happens but like it was almost Prince George yeah it was almost PGC yeah you could have stayed the Duke could have had go-go music it could have been great but no you wanted smothered fried biscuits sorry he is he has offered a commission commanding Virginia state forces. And again, Virginia has not decided to join the Confederacy yet. But it's now that Lee is going to have to make his final call.

His wife basically claims that he weeps tears of blood in this night of agony making the decision. Yet his family recall him on the day that he announces his decision to them as being calm and collected, not exhausted and distraught. They're trying to, the tears of blood, you're trying to harken back to Jesus. Like you're trying to make him Jesus, you know, in the garden of Gethsemane here,

like praying, you know, tears, sweating tears of blood, like, come on, fam. Yeah. Anyway. We get one note from like a, an enslaved member of the family, Jim Parks, who describes Leah's pacing backward and forward on the porch, steadying himself. So, you know, I'm sure he spends some time agonizing

over this, I don't think it's for moral reasons. I think it's like, what's gonna wind up better for us, you know? But you get some stuff like that here. So, Lee is never able to work up the courage to admit to his old boss and mentor, Winfield Scott, that he has decided to turn traitor. The last letter he sends to Scott comes after Virginia votes to secede near the end of April and all he says in it is he's like thanks for 25 years of kindness and

consideration you were always had my back uh you know great times working with you buddy um and then he concludes it stay cool have a great summer then he concludes it. Stay cool. Have a great summer. Yeah. He concludes it with the same old lie, save and defense of my native state. I never again desire to draw my sword. And again, it was like, okay, so you're saying you're willing to draw your sword.

You're going to fight as a traitor. You just can't even admit it to your old boss. Yeah. But you're about to do it though. Yeah. It's, it's, this is why I buy Simon Cameron's claim because yeah, so weasley about this every time Yes, and it's also again for the whole oh, he couldn't have betrayed Virginia his boss Winfield Scott of Virginia Yeah, he's so actively for take betraying Virginia. Yeah

So is George Thomas Lee's colleague in the army back in Texas, like this guy who he's potentially about to fight alongside when they're worried they might get attacked by secessionists. And both Winfield Scott and George Thomas suffer because of their decision to stay loyal. Scott is accused of being a free state pimp and Lee does not defend him,

does not defend the honor of his boss that he says has done so much to him. And George Thomas' relatives, who turned traitor, ask him to change his name. Like, these men make real sacrifices for the Union. Fitzhugh Lee's biography, like most laws cause biographies, likes to depict what happens with Lee as basically guaranteed just because everyone does this, right? Everyone signs with their state. Quote, almost acknowledged that no selfish or unpatriotic motive influenced him in refusing to draw his sword against his native state, to which from early boyhood he had been taught by the wisest and the purest in the land he owed his first allegiance. Here it is also just to remark that

all who resigned their commissions in service of the United States to cast their lot with their native states were influenced by the same pure and unselfish motives. You want to hear the truth? 40% of Virginia officers stayed loyal. 40? 40. And that doesn't mean 60% turn traitor because a bunch of them just chose not to fight. Like I'm not like these old instructor Dennis Mann at West Point we're just like I can't be a part of it so like it is not true that this was just how everyone moved a huge number of people knew this was wrong yeah and did the right thing you know yeah Lee chose the coward's way out and that is a huge and critical part of his story. I love this. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, there's nothing valiant about his choices, nothing diabolical, it's coward. Yeah, yeah. You're fucking coward. Yes, that's it. And you know what? Credit to the memory of the men who stayed loyal. That's a tough call.

That's an honorable fucking move. Yes, you are definitely going against the current. And you know, like part of me is like, okay, bare minimum. Like, all right, freaking Mike Pence had asked, you finally decided to do something right. But on the other hand, it's like, no, for real. Like that was like, when it finally came down to it, you was like, nah, I can't. Yeah, I can't fam.

You like the Mike Pence joint. I had just a moment for the Mike Pence app. Mike Pence has like, oh, nigga, the last day of the job. Yeah. You're gonna finally do something that's yeah. Yeah, I would say the minimum is that minority of guys who just decided not to fight, right? Yes. That's the minimum. True. Choosing to fight and stay loyal. I think is a step beyond that. Okay. Yeah, I'll give I'll give him that

I'll give him that that's hard and you see you see who people are in moments of crisis and he has made it very clear who he is Yeah, he's a coward. Yeah, you say zone ass like you're not you're saving your own ass You're saving your reputation. You're afraid to fess up. You're saving your own ass. You're saving your reputation. You're afraid to fess up. You're afraid to man up. You're afraid to stand on your own square. Yeah, yeah, fucking coward. Now you know who's not a coward, prop.

Tch, Sophie Lichterman. That's true, and the other sponsors of our podcast. Facts. Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on The Daily Show, which means he's also back in our ears on The Daily Show, Ears Edition podcast. Join late night legend John Stewart and the best news team for today's biggest headlines, exclusive extended interviews and more.

Now this is the second term we can all get behind. Listen to The Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Chris Turni, and if you're like me, it's easy to read all the bad news about the climate and just think, we're f***ed. That's why I've started a new podcast called Unf***ing the Future. Every episode will speak to someone taking on the climate crisis in a clever way, like the filmmaker Adam McKay. We're dealing with just a gargantuan force,

and the number one thing I've been trying to do through the whole thing is just keep my sense of humor. The guest list is amazing. UN Goodwill Ambassador Sabrina Elba, Climate activist Bill McKibben and Maggie Baird. We even have Bill Nye the Science Guy. If you go into this thinking we're going to get overwhelmed and lose, then we will. Tight it out people. Listen to I'm F***ing the Future on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whether you get your podcasts. We're on F***ing the Future.

I'm Jason Flom and you're Maggie Freeling. Hey, Jason. Every day we learn about another person who shouldn't be in prison. 58 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. So glad you're home. If you want to be part of this work, listen to Wrongful Conviction.

The podcast where we hand the mic to innocent people to hear their stories. How do you send someone innocent to prison? Listen to new episodes of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling and Jason Flamm on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back.

So Lee resigns his commission and he travels to Richmond. And as was a pattern for him, he never quite has the courage to admit that he's doing this to take command of the Virginia state military. He would later claim he was just visiting Richmond to look over family property. But by the time he arrived, the state commission had voted him commander in chief of Virginia's military forces, and he has given George Washington's sword. Now, again, this, I think, gets into one of the real

reasons why he does this. Remember, he's ashamed of his father. Yes. And he he's obsessed with George Washington. Washington is the father he wished he'd had. And Washington is the legacy that he wants to have for himself. I think being offered this sword symbolizes to him finally taking on that heritage. Yes. Over the legacy of his father. And this is also if he leads secessionist forces to victory in a war of independence, then he's the George Washington of the Confederacy. And I think that, which is crude personal pride and benefit is the primary motivating factor beyond everything else. White supremacy plays into it, obviously, a desire to maintain his property,

sure, but end of the day, I want to be the man. He wants to be fucking George Washington. Yeah, I want to be the man. This is not a universal belief among historians, but this is very much, Alan Guelzo really kind of lands on this, and I like his book a lot. And also, Guelzo's interesting, he got some shit when it got announced that he was writing this book because he is like a conservative man, like politically. He is a modern conservative today. He's taken part in some like conservative, like historical conferences. One of the reasons why I think his book is valuable

is because writing as a conservative, he is unsparingly pro-union and unsparingly anti-like. He's very open about like Lee was a fucking traitor, right? I love it. And I think that's actually it's useful because you can kind of get some of this shit across To people who are not like politically liberal or on the left with Gwelsa's biography It's hard to art. You can't you simply can't argue with a lot of what the man says. Yeah, I love that Obviously it is debatable, does he do this cause he just wants to be his own,

that is an arguable point, I'm not saying that's absolute, but I buy Gwels's argument there. Yeah, I feel like the case you've laid out to me is like, I mean, I still am a firm believer that history is just us back then. So if you're just thinking like, whoever, like what would regular ass do do and this this is what regular ass do would do and it's like so that's probably what he did you know

and all the different layers that informed his decision nobody in I don't think anybody has ever I don't think anybody has ever single-minded and makes a decision, you know, turning off one thing. There's multiple things at various levels of importance or whatever, right? But like when you put it all together, at the end of the day, you're making a particular call. And you understand that this call, no matter how much you agonized it,

you get that once you make this call, all the implications come with it. And this is just what it is. And you're willing to accept it. There were people who saw this, who were close to Lee and saw how self-serving his decision was at the time, including family who stayed loyal. I'm gonna quote again from American Heritage here.

Upon learning that Lee had spent two days prayerfully searching for a decision, a cousin remarked acidly, I wish he had read over his commission as well as his prayers. At West Point, someone drew a picture of Lee with his head attached to the body of a louse. I feel no exalted respect for a man

who takes part in a movement in which he can see nothing but anarchy and ruin. And yet that very utterance scares past Robert Lee's lips when he starts off with delegates to treat with traders was the response of Francis Blair's daughter who had married into the Lee family, right? Where he's like, he says that this is it, he doesn't support secession, it's a bad call, it's disastrous.

So why in the fuck is he doing this? Right? And the only option, answer I see is personal benefit, his own ego, right? My another anecdote from my grandma, she would always say, you already know what you wanna do. No matter what it was, she would always be like, you already know what you wanna do.

It's like, oh, you gonna pray about it? Yo, you finna pray about it. You know what you wanna do. Yeah, you just wanna be able to argue that God told you to do it. Exactly, she was like, you know what you wanna do. She used to always say that, he what he want to do, you know? And I'm like, damn, she now now I'm like, wow, am you right?

Yeah. So Lee takes this job offered to him, commanding Virginia. And again, he's not yet a Confederate officer, right? The Confederacy is starting to get like pulled together here, but Virginia's has not committed to be a part of it yet. So he is the he is at this point the supreme commander of all of Virginia's military forces, which are dog shit at this state. Right. These are just a bunch of state militias. And like Lee had had to deal with state militias while he was in the US Army.

They always suck ass. Like they are incompetent. They're poor. They're actually not all that different from a lot of the militias we have today. And he writes about them that way, where like they're not willing, they're poor. They're actually not all that different from a lot of the militias we have today. And he writes about them that way, where like they're not willing to fucking do shit. So this is a really stressful job, right? His early gig is like, he has to turn this into a functional military.

And he's pretty good at this. Again, this is Lee's period of competence. He knows how an army is supposed to work. So he is able, he promotes men to some of the jobs that don't exist in the militia that need to exist. And he starts organizing this into something that's kind of functional. Now, he is in conflict regularly with the fact

that the militias are all like, there's this fever to join the Virginia military when this all starts. Like every man who can hold a gun basically declares themselves part of Virginia's army, but they don't actually like want to be real soldiers. They just, they're hoping this is gonna be over quickly and they can claim a little bit of glory.

So one of the first things that happens is Lee is desperately trying to turn these militias into a functional army. Is Stonewall Jackson takes a bunch of dudes with rifles and occupies Maryland Heights without orders. And when Lee hears this, Lee is like, fucking retreat, don't do, like they could attack us and they have an actual army.

We don't yet. Like we can't, don't provoke them yet. We're not ready to fight any kind of a battle. This is reasonable, right? This is not, Lee is not bad at this sort of stuff. He's absolutely right. Like Jackson has put them all in a terribly dangerous position. But the fact that he is consistently like, stop rattling your saber, stop trying to

provoke the North, we have to actually have an army before we do any of this. This gets him in trouble with his new found countryman, as Alan Guelzo writes. Complaints about Lee soon blossomed in Virginia. No one admires General Lee more than I do, wrote Albert Taylor Bloodsote at Jefferson Davis on May 10th. But I fear he is too despondent. His remarks are calculated to dispirate our people. I have heard such remarks myself and energetically dissented from them.

I fear he does not know how good and how righteous our cause is. Over exuberant Southerners began glancing over their shoulders at Lee. One of Mary Chestnut's South Carolina notables whispered that, Robert E. Lee is against us, that I know. And another predicted that General Lee will surely be tried for a traitor. So because he's like, I don't care how enthusiastic you are, if we don't have like supply lines set up

and like actually if we're not organized like a functional military, we're going to lose. And they're like, but our cause is righteous. What are you you a coward? Like he's being called a traitor for being like don't start a war when we don't have an army. Yeah, like yeah, you say like I don't know guys Yeah, he kind of sounds like a bitch It's like no fellas like no, I'm just saying and this is he has found himself in a hell utterly of his own making.

Yeah, you did not have to do this. Yeah. Maybe this is a sign you made the wrong fucking choice, Robert. What have I got myself into? Yeah, what the fuck am I doing here? So Virginia votes to join the newly formed Confederate states pretty shortly after this point. And Lee goes, when this happens, he goes from the supreme commander

of an independent Virginia to one more general under Jefferson Davis, right? And this is also the moment where he loses his house. Lincoln is not stupid, and the union waits to actually move on Virginia until they commit to the Confederate States. Because Lincoln, he's not gonna start a fight until he knows he has to.

He's not a reckless man about this sort of shit. But as soon as Virginia is like, yeah, we're the Confederacy now, the Union moves to occupy and seizes Arlington, right? Now, Lee is not at Arlington. He has gone down to Richmond to take this job commanding Virginia's army and he never returns.

He never will see Arlington again. In letters, he's warning his wife, as all of this is building up, he's repeatedly like, you gotta get our shit in bounce, take the silverware, like he knows what's going to happen. And he knows that the Confederate military,

the Virginia military, none of it's going to be able to stop the Union from taking Arlington. His wife holds out until the last minute and departs right before the property could be occupied by Union forces. And it's's basically it's initially turned into like a forward operating base. Fitzhugh Lee frames this as an act of courageous sacrifice by Lee rather than the inevitable

result of the Confederacy being a bunch of arrogant pricks who launched a war they weren't ready to fight. Quote, In addition to the high position offered him in the United States Army, he yielded his private fortune with his beautiful home, Arlington, a home endeared by historic associations and many years of happy married life, a home of unsurpassed beauty of situation and adorned with all that men most value, now destined to be the sport of ruined soldiers, its priceless relics scattered, its beautiful surroundings desececrated. It's choices attractions destroyed.

And I think it's funny that fits you 30 years after the war is still sore enough to call Union soldiers rude. Like, oh, they're putting their feet up on the tables. This is, well, it matters. Yeah, it's not really true. And actually the officers who occupy Arlington are like, if Mary Lee had stayed, we'd have let her kept living at her house, right?

We're not gonna kick an old, she's an invalid, right? She's sick, she can't really move very well. Like these guys are not going to kick a sick old woman out of her house, right? That's your mama fam, like it's fine. Your mama's fine, yeah. Yeah, but you know, she bounces anyway. And I will say, as the war goes on,

these guys who are initially like, yeah, we'd have let her stay, they get angrier because all of their friends start getting killed, right? And this gets us to one of the funnier side stories of the Bobby Lee saga. So we're jumping ahead a bit here, but by the summer of 1862,

this is like a year or so into the actual fighting in the Civil War. Congress passes a law to let them collect taxes on real estate in Confederate areas. Basically, I know you're traders, but we don't recognize the Confederacy as a separate state, so you still have to pay your fucking property taxes. And the intention here is to twist the screws

in traders like Lee, writing in Smithsonian Magazine, Robert Poole states, appropriating the homestead was perfectly in keeping with the views of Lincoln, Secretary of War Edward M. Stanton, General William T. Sherman and Montgomery Meigs, all of whom believed in waging total war to bring the rebellion to a speedy conclusion. Make them so sick of war that generations would pass away

before they would then appeal to it, Sherman wrote. And Mary tries to pay their tax bill. She sends like a cousin who stays in the north to like pay the bill on her behalf. But county commissioners in Alexandria are like, now you got to pay in person. Yeah, you can't do that. So they seize Arlington, the government does and puts it up for auction. And if you want to know how the process of auctioning a property works, you can refer to the documentary Happy Gilmore. But sadly, Robert E. Lee is dog shit at golf, so he's not able to get his property back. Hey man, no tubs, rest in peace.

It all comes back to tubs. It all comes back to tubs. Yes. We're gonna talk more about what becomes of Arlington in part four, and we're also going to take a look at Lee's actual performance in the war and whether or not he deserves to be remembered as the greatest general of the war.

Furthermore, we'll talk about the rumors that he had an unhealthy love affair with his horse traveler. But today I really wanted to, you have to kind of spend an hour talking about why did Lee turn traitor? Because there's so much disinfo about it. And what we do know, what we can verify is so fucking clear.

I feel like I hope anyone who had any lingering doubts about that has had them asswaged at this point. You had some color to like a narrative I understood, which I really appreciate. I do wanna go back to this like the reality on the ground of like the Confederate states we're still paying taxes. It's, it's, it reminds me of like, you know, your kid being like, get out of my room. It's my room.

Stay out of my life. And then they slam the door and then you're like, okay, cool. I'm just going to walk over to the router and turn off the internet because I'm out of your life. Apparently you know what I'm saying? Like you understand your router and turn off the internet because I'm out of your life apparently You know I'm sad like you understand your room is attached to my house Yeah, and then when you come out of that room to try to go to my refrigerator. Oh, I'm sorry sweetheart I'm out of your life this refrigerator full of food is for people. That's

Part of my life. Yeah, right. Oh, you're gonna eat it. Okay, cool. You're right I'll get out of your life now I still expect the trash to be emptied in the next. So you've out of your fighting as you empty in the trash, baby, you still got chores here. Cause like I like you okay, I'm gonna give you some space. I'm going to give you some space. Distill my house. I just think it's so funny. It's like, where's the seating also? What's tax rate rate 8%? Yeah, you still gotta pay your taxes, guys.

You still gotta pay your taxes, fam. Now, that's definitely one of the more baller moves of the Lincoln administration. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, all right. Well, we simply don't care. April 15th, guys. Yeah, it's coming up.

You still gotta pay. You still gotta pay, fam. Uh-huh, all right. Prop, where can the people find you should they want to do this? Find me in the hood. I'm posted. I'm just playing You can find me prop hip hop cop Who politics pod, you know, we're we really turned it up this year To make sure that like we're really giving y'all our a game

hood politics pod is the to make sure that like we're really giving you all our A game. Hood Politics Pod is the Instagram, Prop Hip Hop is my everything. Excellent. Well, everybody, this has been Behind the Bastards. If you wanna get more from us, you can check out Better Off Line, our new tech-focused podcast, covering the disaster that is the tech industry

and how it's fucking up all of our lives with the great Ed Zitron. If you want to find my novel after the revolution, just type that into Google with AK Press or just go to whatever bookseller and type it into their thing and you can buy my book. This has been a podcast. I have been Robert Evans. Come back for part four. We will answer the question on everybody's mind. Did Bobby Lee fuck that horse? The answer will surprise us all. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports, and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines.

Listen to The Daily Show, Ears Edition on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Duane Wade and I've been blessed to have so many titles so far in my life but now I'm adding podcast hosts with my new podcast called The Why with Duane Wade. On this show I will have intimate conversations with some of the biggest names in sports, in music, in entertainment, in fashion, and we will discuss the whys in their lives. Listen to the whys with Dwayne Wade on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcast, or whatever

you can get your podcast. It's Rachel Leviss, host of the new podcast Rachel goes rogue. This podcast is about choosing my own path and standing in my power. I have been involved with one of the biggest scandals in reality television history. We're going to get into all of it. The good, the bad, the ugly. I've been keeping secrets for far too long and and I just wanna come clean. Listen to Rachel Goes Rogue on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.