Behind the Bastards - Part Two: Behind the Bastards Live Show: The Ballad of Bo Gritz

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Robert concludes the story of Bo Gritz with his unhinged attempts to rescue POWs from Vietnam, his political ambitions, and disgraceful downfall.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now.

Listen for free on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. A new true crime podcast from Tenderfoot TV in the city of Mons in Belgium, women began to go missing. It was only after their dismembered remains began turning up in various places that residents realized. A sadistic serial killer was lurking among them. The murders have never been solved. Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence. Le Mestre, Season 2. is available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life. Now, this ain't just any old podcast, honey. We're going to be talking to family members of victims, detectives, prosecutors, and some nationally recognized experts that I have called on over the years to help me work these difficult cases. I've worked hundreds of cold cases you've heard of, and thousands you haven't. We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us in learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members.

Come be a part of my Zone 7 while building yours. Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. Malcolm Gladwell here, this season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough.

I didn't kill him. From Revisionous History, this is the Alabama murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. QuarZone Media Okay, like a grown-up. I'm going to sit normally now. I'm going to sit like a grown-up. Let's give a hands up to a...

I feel like that was for me. You don't fucking control me. I feel like I got... They booed you turning the chair around. No, they don't control you, but clearly I do. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. There you go. There's never been a question about that.

You control us all. Also, shout out us graduating our booze. Not me. Yes, yes, we've moved up to hard liquor. We've moved up. You're on to bourbon. Not me. Because I got to...

Because I got to walk in the crowd later, and I'm very afraid of falling. Oh, that part's going to be fun. So, shall we return to the story of Bo Grites? Right? So, when we last left off, Bo was touring the country, telling lies that he didn't need to tell about Vietnam, and raising money to try and send a bunch of goons back to Southeast Asia to rescue a bunch of guys who were not in Southeast Asia.

Is he bored? I mean, this seems more fun. than, like, getting a job. Yeah, true. What would you rather do? Lie to television about Vietnam and take a bunch of money to go vacation in Thailand or work?

I mean, yeah. I'm lying about Vietnam. I don't think I would, like, actually do the gun. Like, I would just go vacation. That's the part I wouldn't do. That's what I'm saying. I was like, yeah, I'd go and just never come back. And unfortunately, Bo does not have that governor in his head. No.

No, when you and I start our Vietnam grift, it's going to go a lot better. It's going to go a lot better. There will be a lot of timeshares involved. It's going to be hard convincing people in 2040 that there's still U.S. soldiers trapped in Vietnam. Yeah. You can't tell me I'm wrong. Deep down, Bo is just a podcaster. So, Bo's touring the country.

He's speaking on different TV shows. He's talking at churches, at veterans organizations. He's telling all these stories. and yeah after months of raising money he launches what he calls Operation Velvet Hammer in 1981

I know I know okay that's a good one that's a good one I would use that title if I was writing a screenplay called Operation Velvet Hammer that is a it would be about a strip club that

had to arm themselves Yes I was like this is a porn in order to care no not a porn What? Velvet Hammer? Yeah, one of the employees at the strip club gets kidnapped by a mafia

and the others have to form a commando unit to rescue them. So it's like a stripper escape room? Yes, kind of, yes, yes. It's Portland, we probably have that. That exists. No, no, it's like taken,

but instead of there being one Liam Neeson, there's a bunch, and they're all strippers, right? Like, that's the story. That's not a bad idea for, I'm just going, yeah. Greenlit. I do think an adult escape room might actually be a viable business. Yeah, yeah. A viable business that will immediately get, like, the lawsuits.

The lawsuits. Oh, my God. Immediately. So, yes. He launches Operation Velvet Hammer in 1981. Writing for Time magazine, Pico Eyre reports that Bo gathered up, quote, 21 drifters, dreamers, and desperadoes recruited a psychic, a hypnotherapist. and some reporters, and began practicing.

Okay, okay, okay, I might be here for this one. I'm like, I'm kind of on his team now. Look, if I'm putting together a platoon of veterans in order to, like, rescue guys, what do you need? Well, you need some drifters, obviously. You're going to need some dreamers, some desperadoes, a psychic, clearly. A psychic! You're not going to get far without a hypnotherapist, and of course some reporters. I might be on his team for this one.

Okay. And so they start training together to go. to go into Lao and to rescue or at least find proof that there's men being held prisoner across the border in Vietnam. Now, prop, if you're training roughly a platoon's

worth of guys who are already combat veterans, but if you're training them to insert themselves without any support into some of the most dangerous terrain on earth in order to rescue prisoners from a heavily guarded camp, where would you do that training? I mean,

caveat would be I wouldn't be doing this training. Right, right. If you were. If you were. I promise you don't have the right answer. It's so funny. Where would I do this?

Yeah, where would you train these guys to go into Lough? Somewhere similar to Lough. That's a good answer. That's close. But, no, no, no, no. If you're Bogu rights, the place you pick is the American Cheerleading Association Academy in Leesburg, Florida.

Obviously. Where would you guys? guys go. Right? You made that. That's not what that's saying. Ain't a way in the world. That's what your script says. Sun Su says, know your enemy and know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a thousand battles.

I think he knows the North Vietnamese. I think he also said, burr. It's cold in here. Sovi, I was going to do a bit about how North Vietnam based all of their fighting strategies on cheerleading. But you already took it from me, so we're good. We're good. I was one step ahead.

Oh, my gosh. Just like the cheerleaders. Just like the cheerleaders. The middle name is Lynn. So one of Bo's, to give you an idea of the caliber. That was a throwaway joke. Y'all catch that one? Got cast that joey joke?

The middle name is Lynn. She's Kaylee Lynn. You know what I'm saying? Dang, sorry. I can't. I literally. So. I apologize.

I should give you an idea of the kind of men that Bo's working with. So one of his volunteers is a guy named Terry Smith. Now, Terry is a former green beret. So that's good, right? Probably want someone with that kind of experience on the team. Now, before getting involved in Velvet Hammer, Terry had been training to become a college football player, and he quit spring training to go to Laos with Bo.

He told Time, when they asked him why, I gave up something I've always wanted. But there were at least a dozen green berets on operations in that area in Lao who never got out. When I shoot the first commie, I'm going to have an orgasm. I'm going to come out. Wait? This is gone off the rails.

Okay. I'm gonna come out with a P-O-W or die trying. I figure we'll either go down in history or start World War III. That's a beautiful mind. That's a beautiful mind. I'm sorry. You need to stay home.

You need to not have a gun. You need to not have a gun. Look, you know, we could talk about the Second Amendment, but that should get your guns taken away. I feel like... Nope, nope, nope, hand them over. I'm sorry. Yes, absolutely not.

This person is unwell. Yeah, very, oh, you haven't even, we haven't, not finished with Terry Smith. So, that's, that's, that's the name, Terry Smith. That's, Terry Smith. That's very Terry behavior, yeah. Sorry if there's any, are there any Terrys in the audience? Thank God.

Wow. Thank God, thank God. It's a Terry free zone. I can't stand those motherfuckers. Now, I'm all, there's 500 people. people in this room, and none of y'all are Terry. It's not a real name.

That's an interesting stat. Yeah, it's a fake name. I think Terry was a CIA plant. Anyway. Especially with that type of talk. You would. Right, right. That's very much some, like, Black's rule energy.

You know what I'm saying? You know we don't call ourselves that, right? Like, we would never write Black's rule, okay? I'm just... Bowe's... It's true. Roughly two dozen guys, right? Smith, you know,

this guy we quoted from, purportedly a combat veteran, but no one's checking up on that. I say, he said he was a green beret. All these guys say that they had been involved. No one's checking. Wait, was he not? Was he not? I don't know. No one knows. No one looked. No one asked.

Terry. These are men who showed up at a cheerleading academy in Florida and said, I'm willing to travel to loud to kill strangers. God. Who knows what they did for a living? That there might be one of our friends there. Maybe our buddy is there, right? I'm just saying Eric

Prince is foaming at the mouth. Oh, yeah. Oh, beyond foaming. And not just at the mouth. So... My mom is here. Hi, Sophie's mom. Hi, Mom. So, Terry told reporters

a lot of beautiful nonsense. Not beautiful nonsense. A lot of nonsense. One of his stories that he would tell the news was that when he was in Vietnam, he watched a whole platoon of NVA soldiers. stop and cut up a pregnant woman together. Quote, I wanted to rip their heads off, but I couldn't do nothing about it. Now, look, no side in any war has a monopoly on war crimes.

But 30 guys all stopped to cut up a single pregnant woman. It's just not the sort of war crime. I'm going to believe it happened unless you have some evidence, right? That's just a weird move, right? What was the situation where you couldn't do anything? These guys are all occupied and you're just, what? like, what are you claiming was going on here, Terry? I don't know.

That said, do drink because it is a war crime. So, get on it, folks. Now, I think that this is the kind of nonsense that fits in less with what actually happened and more with the fact that all these guys are now telling tall tales about the things that actually happened. In order to

express their fantasies, they're trying to justify the fact that they want to go murder a bunch of strangers in the jungle, right? So you have to tell, like, what's the worst thing I can imagine, well, this would justify me doing whatever, right? This summary of that Florida gathering

by Time Magazine really says a lot. Quote, they were just high on the idea, adrenaline, and the ballad of the green berets, blaring over the loudspeaker at all of them, an ex-special forces sergeant still embittered about losing his son in Vietnam, and Terry Smith,

humping a rucksack, urging them on, suck that clean Florida air! Just a maniac. All these guys. maniacs. What going on, man. Their plan, the plan that they're training for is nuts from the jump. Bo's idea, we're all going to fly in to Lowe as tourists, and then we'll rent a house

on the Mekong Delta, across from Vietnam, and we'll pretend to be providing humanitarian aid to Cambodian refugees. We'll get smuggled a bunch of machine guns, which should be easy, obviously, and then we'll embed with friendly anti-communist guerrillas fighting the Vietnamese states. across the border, right? And they'll help us find these POWs. If we're captured, we're going to travel with gold so we can pay our ransoms.

And we're going to bring with us just in case what they called get out of jail free cards. These were self-printed IOUs promising $1,000 if someone took them in the bearer to a U.S. Embassy. The embassies had not agreed to validate these. First of all. These are just, I carry one of those in my pocket now. Yeah, first of all,

America didn't send you, number one, and number two, you were going to be robbed immediately. Immediately. Oh, prop, you've seen where this is going. So, the next part of the plan is, once they find a POW camp, we will either

break everyone out, or we'll take pictures depending on the situation. And then, we'll send the proof back to D.C., and that'll convince the president to send air support from the 7th Fleet in, right? We will start the war in Vietnam right there. He's going to immediately call in an airstrike

and we'll free these guys. Now, bro, this is like pre- this ain't no internet. Like, how long you're going to call the president from Laos? Yeah, you're going to call the president from fucking Lao and you're going to get him to send the 7th Fleet to bomb Vietnam again. Ten years

after the warrants. Okay. Great, great idea, guys. Amazing. And Bo's plan is that, like, obviously we'll win a second time, right? It's like when you're like playing your brother or something at Smash Brothers and like he like gets you But he just like he just mashed buttons

You know he's not going to mash those buttons the same way again Vietnam was like that Right Maybe you pick Sammas the next time That was Bo's plan Your brother beating the brakes off you every time Right yeah got it So unfortunately the money that Beau raised

Telling pointless lies about his time in Vietnam did not extend past partying in Florida. One member of the group, so they run out of money at the cheerleading academy. Oh, really? And one member of the group, Terry fucking Smith, suggests, hey guys, I know I can get some extra money. We're in Florida.

It's the 80s. Let's go murder a bunch of Coke dealers and take their money. And we'll fund our trip to Vietnam. Well, allow the Coke dealer money. I said to myself, they're going to say they're going to say. sell coke. And I was like, no, that'd be dumb.

No, that'd be dumb. They're going to take money from Coke dealers. I was like, oh, you're going to rob Coke dealers. Oh, yeah. We're going to start an independent war with the cartels so that we can start an independent war with Vietnam. At their base, at the cheerleading camp.

Out of their cheerleading base. Now, Terry Smith told the Time magazine, if I got to kill 20 American bad guys to get 100 POWs out of Vietnam, I'll do it. Of course, Terry, absolutely. Terry said, go fight, roar.

That was good, Sophie. Thank you. Thank you. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman.

And this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. In 1997, in Belgium, 37 female body parts placed in 15 trash bags were found at dump sites with evocative names

like The Path of Worry, Dump Road, and Fear Creek. of Saturday, investigators made a new discovery yesterday afternoon of the torso of a woman. Investigators believe it is the work of a serial killer. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved. Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence and new suspects. We felt like we were in the presence of someone who was going to the grave with nightnourish secrets. From Tenderfoot TV and IHard podcast, This is Le Mansre Season 2, The Butcher of Moss, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long. Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur 35 long years.

I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did. Why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself,

turn to the right, to the victim's family and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice To the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the studio who brought you the Pikedin Massacre and Murder 101, this is Incells.

I am a loser. If I also a woman, I wouldn't date me either. From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset. If I can't have you, girls, I will destroy you. A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seat of loneliness explodes. I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. At a deadly tipping point.

Incells will be added to the terrorism guide. Police say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing 10 people. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge. This is Incells. Listen to Season 1 of InCells on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Operation Velvet Hammer worked out about as well as an actual. velvet hammer. After this,

Bo doesn't give up. That's one thing the military taught him. The military taught him two things. One is how to stick to a plan, and the other is how to not win a war in Vietnam, right? Those are the two things he learns from his surface. So, Bo organizes a smaller

group to hunt for clues in Thailand, and I have to assume that the word hunt here means smoke, and the word clues here stands for tie sticks. Anyway, They find no information about any POWs hunting in Thailand. He just shooting out arbitrary countries that are like close to where.

Look, you know what? We say that. Actually, Prop, if you guys want to donate some money, you know, really, really coughing and give deep, I think we could find some POWs in Thailand. I'm pretty sure we can. We're going to need like six weeks at La Miridian in Bangkok. And I think we can knock it out. I really think we can knock it out.

I was a little specific. Yeah. It's just one boat, it's just, look, it's just one bus. into the bush. Right. But we could stay out there and... Based in the La Meridian. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do some like mental health work and... Look, massages. This podcast is not sponsored by La Meridian. You guys aren't all in Intel. But let me tell you as a CIA man. All of the good... All of the real information comes from massage artists. So my plan is to get like eight hours of massages a day, right?

And that, then I'll figure out where all of the prisoners are. Sovi, it's a good idea. And most of them, most of them speak English, right? I don't know. Also, as a side note, as I've been sitting here, I thought Velvet Hammer also sounds like a Prince album. Yeah, that would be a pretty good name for a Prince album. It'd be a Prince album. Anyway.

Yeah. Also, not a bad band name, anyway. How are they not out of money completely at this point? Well, they're continuing. Well, actually, we'll talk about who's giving them money, because that's fun, Sophie. That's really fun. So Bo keeps raising money and public awareness of U.S. POWs that are definitely still trapped in Vietnam. He succeeds in securing several high-profile

celebrity donations. Wait, who do you think it is? Yeah. Who do you think it is? Give me two names. Kissinger. No. Celebrities. Like movie stars. Movie star. Movie or TV? I was like John Wayne, Robert Redford. Ollie Norff's not a TV star or a movie star. At this point in time, he will become that.

You're all getting very close, but you're not there yet. No. Yep. Someone said Eastwood. Clint Eastwood sends $30,000. And allegedly promised to get Ronald Reagan's blessing. Allegedly, Bo says,

Clint said, if you can find proof of a P-O-W, I'll make sure Reagan sends in an air strike, right? I don't know if Clint Eastwood did shit, other than he definitely sent the money, right? And then, no one's going to guess this. William Shatner donated $10. To be fair to our boy, Bill Shatnerson's 10 grand

if in exchange for the rights to Grits to Bo Grites' life. Okay, come on. Right. Bill's got an angle. We know our boy. I see to play. Captain Kirk knows what he's doing. Respect, right? Actually respect. You know what I'm saying? I think 10K is a hilarious amount for his life rights.

Yeah. So the money is. that they raise is enough that in November of 1982, Bo finally succeeds in taking a commando team to Lao where the most obvious thing happens. And I want to quote from Bruce Franklin's book, MIA, here. Almost as soon as they arrived

in Lao, they were ambushed, routed, and forced to flee as fast as they could back to Thailand. The ambushers, contrary to their initial assumptions, were not even treacherous communists, but a rival anti-communist Laotian group whom Grites' men had offended in Thailand, and to whom

Grites, ironically enough, reportedly had to pay $17,500 ransom to recover a captured American teammate. The Raiders, of course, encountered no POWs. Now, there's a couple of things about this. First off, they did kind of succeed in rescuing a POW. Yes. Touche! Did they bring that POW with them?

Yes. But they did save him. Second... That is glorious. It's time for another drink, because also two of his local... Laotian guides die in the ambush, which is very sad. Although, you have to imagine the guys who are taking him into the jungle. Probably not great.

Right? The dudes who were working with this guy? I don't know. Anyway, that's sad. Still sad. Take a drink. That is so funny. Not the death.

Not the deaths. But the fact that they immediately get ambushed, robbed, and ransomed. Super funny. Now, if you're keeping track, the only American captive they've encountered is someone they brought with them. but the very next month Bo tries again flying to Thailand

and renting a $1,000 a month safe house and $1,000 a month in the 1980s that is a nice fucking save house A lot of money Again, prop we could find some information

In a $1,000 a month safe house That's not a bad amount of money today You're staying in a night Well, a thousand a month, I don't know Yeah, we'll see Safe houses, you know, they're on a sliding scale So one of those comrades claims to have totally seen bad guys across the border drilling with weapons.

Sure, maybe. Like, it's Vietnam. They have an army now. Like, they're their country, right? Like, they're allowed to do that? He's like, I was so angry. I couldn't fight them. It's their country.

What are you doing over there? You came, you flew all the way from Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Well, presumably from Florida. Yeah. So, Bo's last attempt was in the spring of 1983, and it ended when Thai police

immediately arrested two of his commandos for possession of illegal radio transmitters. So... Did nobody ask all to come, fam? No one wants you here. You did not need to be here. Okay. This is not a success, by any definition.

But it got attention. People do pay attention to what Boa is doing. He gets hauled before Congress in March of 1983. Now, Congress had concluded, as I said in 1976, that there were no more P.O. is being held by Vietnam. So Bo is asked, what evidence

do you have to counter these conclusions? And Bo answers, I have the same evidence that might be presented to a convention of clergymen that God exists. So like none? Wait. So like none?

That's not a bar, but gee? So like no evidence? That's not a bar, ma'am. I'm not anti-faith or whatever, but we don't invade countries based on what we do, actually, a lot. Actually, we do all the time. actually often why we invi, okay, point to Bo.

Now, in another interview, one of Bo's former volunteers, Tom Smith, said of Grites, I wouldn't cross the street with this guy. He's suffering from the early stages of burning a bush complex. Which, first off, it's not burning a bush. I don't understand why you said it that way. No, it's a burning bush. It's a burning bush. Yeah.

You're not burning, maybe he's saying he was lighting a bush on fire to, like, fake it. I guess that could be good. I don't know. Maybe it's some slang, we just don't know. Maybe, yeah, this is some... There are more important things here. Continue to. Sure. Yes, ma'am. Now, the attention that Bo drew mattered, though, to someone.

Well, to a group, Hollywood. Bow's story inspired and did legitimately inspire Rambo First Blood Part 2, in which John Rambo was sent to a secret U.S. base in Thailand to invade Vietnam on his own and rescue POWs. There's other movies that were inspired by Bo's story. Chuck Norris' Missing in Action series, and the Gene Hackman film Uncommon Valor, RIP Gene. We're also inspired by Bo's fantasies

of rescuing POWs overseas. And here's my favorite side fact, the character Hannibal Smith on the A team, inspired partly by Bo Gretax. Yeah, I know. Hannibal? And the real, number one, the real Hannibal would have found those POWs if they were there.

Absolutely. And number two. I would have pity them fools. Absolutely, absolutely. Sorry. I do love the A team. You can tell Rob said it had half a drink. This was like,

this was like, he poured this like a glass of water. It was a thick pour. Like shout out, whoever, like, you're trying to put me up under this table. It was as thick as the C4 necklace around that guy's neck. So, what? I didn't do it. You're supposed to say.

say no. Yeah. No. All right, everybody do your drink. So, after 1983, Bo seems to have largely and quietly given up on his plans to rescue these totally real

US POWs in order to become an influencer in the growing militia movement. He joined the Mormon church. Start in a direct... No, no. You gotta wait for the sentence to finish. Start in a direct-to-video rip-off of Charlie's Angels

called Rescue Force. I know what everyone's watching tonight. And in 1988, agreed to run as the vice presidential candidate for the Populist Party. Anybody know the Populist Party? Anybody heard of these guys? Well, they were the political party

of a group called the Liberty Lobby, which was founded by a guy we've talked about on Behind the Bastards, a Holocaust denier, and Hitler fan, Willis Carlin. Cartot, right? There we go. Yeah. Ben Willie. Willis Cartot is like, I mean, he is like the grandfather of American fascism as an organized political movement that is like working within like mainstream conservatism and attempting to radicalize and influence mainstream conservatism, right? Carto is the guy. He was the dude who was a lot smarter than like the neo-Nazis. He was like, no, no, no, no, no. You got to dress this shit up a little bit if you're going to do it. sees Beau, and he's like, charismatic, war hero, good at getting media attention, and Carto

kind of scouts him to be the VP candidate, right? Bo says that he was poached directly by Willis Carto. Although, Bo would then later claim that he was shocked and appalled when at that year's convention for the populist party, the presidential nomination was won by another fellow you might have heard of, David Duke. I'll tell you what, man. This Cartel guy must be really smiling in hell right now. Oh, he's having a great time in hell right now.

Oh, my God. Yeah. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman. And this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer,

the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. In 1997, in Belgium, 37 female body parts placed in 15 trash bags were found at dump sites with evocative names like The Path of Worry, Dump Road, and Fear Creek.

of Saturday, investigators made a new discovery yesterday afternoon of the torso of a woman. Investigators believe it is the work of a serial killer. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved. Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence and new suspects. We felt like we were in the presence of someone. It was going to the grave with nightnourish secrets. from Tenderfoot TV and IHeart Podcasts.

This is Le Mansre Season 2, The Butcher of Moss, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History, we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama, where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth's and its family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years.

I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse. He would say to himself, turn to the right to the victim's family, and apologize, turn to the left, tell my family I love him. So he had this little practice. To the right, I'm sorry.

To the left, I love you. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionous History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. From the studio who brought you the Piked and Massacre and Murder 101, this is Incells. I am a loser.

If I also women, I wouldn't tame me either. From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset. If I can't have you, girls, I will destroy you. A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women. A seed of loneliness explodes. I just hate myself. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it.

At a deadly tipping point. Incells will be added to the terrorism guide. Police say a driver intention. drove into a crowd killing 10 people. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. I will have my revenge.

This is InCels. Listen to season one of InCells on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, I will say this, in interviews, because Bogue writes,

as with other parts of his life, gives two different stories. The one that he gives at the time and the one that he gives years later, when people ask, years later, he will be like, oh, I was horrified. The instant I heard that David Duke was the presidential candidate, within 48 hours, I'd resigned. I would absolutely never have worked with such a racist. At the time, in news articles written immediately afterwards, Bo said he was okay with working with Duke because he met with David Duke and made him promise, a solemn promise, not to be a racist in the campaign. in the campaign, not to have a racist campaign. And David Duke said it wasn't going to be a racist campaign. What more can you ask? You know? He said he wasn't going to do it. Sounds fine to me.

Take a man by his word. He promised a Klansman's promise. Okay, well, you know. All right. Jesus Christ, Robert. So, the good news is that after they lost, Bo complained to Cartot. You could stop that sentence right there.

The good news is that they lost, for now. Yeah. I know, right? Let's not think too much about what's happening on all that. Yeah, yeah. So the good news is that Bo complained after they lost to Willis Carto that David Duke did, quote, more harm to the populist party than Hitler would have. Now, okay.

This, this, I'm going to give you a second. This kind of insinuates to me that Bo would have been okay with running a as the VP for Hitler. No, literally. That's exactly what he just said. At first I was like, okay, let him cook. Let me, like, what are you trying to say here? Like, help me understand.

And, yeah, because my first thought was, yeah, like, so you're the beautiful. You might have run with Hitler? If he'd promise not to run a racist campaign. As long as Hitler don't do a racist campaign. Hitler's on his best behavior. We can go to Olive Garden. I'm sorry, I don't know what.

Or Golden Correl. Are you hungry? something, what's happening? I just think Hitler and Olive Garden is a funny image, Sophie. Because when you're there, you're family. So, bro, you are on a roll today.

Do you think he was a super salad guy? I think salads. He was a salad guy, canonically. He's salad and unlimited breadsticks all day. He's killing in breadsticks. That man is not ordering a plate. I'm actually in the audience is a very dear friend. end of mine who we

decided at one point I'm not really sure why to come in at Olive Garden one day on a Tuesday the very minute they opened at nine or ten in the morning now we were both wearing skirts that we'd sewn each other and we both had t-shirts that had our favorite conspiracy theory

on them I do forget what mine was but he'd just said Michael Jackson was murdered written on the front of a white t-shirt and Sharpie and we proceeded to sit down... Who are you, bro? The reason why we showed up is Olive Garden sells three liter bottles of wine. So we ordered

two of them and then we nothing but six liters of wine and breadsticks. And the experiment, because we also brought with us a big role of butcher paper and we started outlining the conspiracies that we like believed ruled the world. So we were drawing like a big flow chart talking about

the Freemasons and all of these different conspiracies and the goal was when will they stop serving us breadsticks? And eventually it did get to the point where we got half a breadstick on a place. and I was like, yeah, it's probably time to bounce. Hey, let me ask you all this. Let me ask you all this.

As fans of this show, how many times have you thought to yourself, how does this man survive? Like, how are you still alive? I'll be thinking that, like, how are you still alive, fam? I will say, as soon as we got back to my house, my friend who was in the audience vomited so much on the floor. I almost made it to the toilet, so I'm just bragging a little bit. Pretty close. Not at all. Not at all.

Literally like three and a half feet further. Anyway, back to the story. So, the good news is, well, not the good news. He runs again in 1992, this time as the presidential candidate for the populist party. And he does twice as well as David Duke, winning 0.1% of the national popular vote to Duke's 0.05. So, you know, not bad. That same year, 92, Bo played what would be arguably his one positive role in U.S. political culture, which is when he kind of ended the Ruby Ridge standoff. So if you're vaguely familiar, there's this guy, Randy Weaver, and his friends in the Aryan Nations, he gets paid by a dude who turns out to be an ATF agent to saw off some

shotguns, and then they raid his house, and an agent is shot dead by, I forget which member of his group killed the agent, but an ATF agent's killed, and the ATF kills his young son, who's a child, and his wife, right? And a big, this is called Ruby Ridge, huge standoff, this is like a seminal moment in the fucking militia movement. It's a big deal. And because Grites is a really famous figure in the militia movement, he gets, like, he basically, I think he reaches out directly to the feds, actually. But anyway, he winds up, flown in, and talks to Randy Weaver and talks Weaver down, and the siege ends without further loss of life. This is a legitimate thing that Bo did, and it's good, right?

It's good that more people, because Randy had his kid, like, I'm not, I don't care that much about Randy, but he had another kid, right? Like, you don't want them to die. And that's good. This is the only good thing that Bo does. But he did do that. Now, because Randy Weaver had some close ties to the Aryan Nations, and because Greitz's 1992 campaign was seen as a watershed moment for white supremacists in the U.S., Bo was accused of

himself being a racist. Can you believe it? Now, Idaho State University professor James Aho told the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center, that as far as he could see, Grites wasn't, quote, an out-and-out racist. And Grites himself repeatedly emphasized that he had two Asian-American children, so he couldn't be racist. Of course he did He was in them huts He was in that hut He was in them huts

You can't be racist You in them huts The hell are we talking about man Now I think it's accurate to say That Beau's primary motivation Wasn't white supremacy But it's kind of weird to say

That he wasn't an out-and-out-racist Given some comments he made About people of the Jewish faith Per the SPLC Earlier this year This is a two In a lengthy diatribe, falsely alleging Jewish control of the media and financial institutions, he wrote, Why is there such an intense effort toward Jewish control?

I don't think it is right for such a small interest, special interest group to control our nation. Wait, in 2005? Old is this man? He's still alive. God. Yeah, I know. It's a bummer. Dang it, man.

Elsewhere he wrote, do you see the sign, the scent, the stain, and mark of the beast on America today? Are you willing to submit and join this seed line of Satan? Look to those who are openly Antichrist. Who in the world is promoting abortion, pornography, pedophilia, godless laws, adultery, New Age international banking, entertainment industry, and world publishing? Wherever you find a perversion of God's laws, you will find the worshippers of Baal with their roots still in Babylonian mysticism. What are you talking about?

He's not an out-and-out racist. This man named Even his racism being Just broken This man naming all the enemies Right Of the Israelites You know what I'm saying

I guess I'm looking Look look I grew up at church y'all He is arguing that that's Judaism is worshipping ball That's the That's what I'm trying to say I'm like

Brassah Never mind We don't need to argue With bogrites on theology But the point of it is that, like, I mean, to be fair, in rural Idaho, that is kind of middle-of-the-road racism, right? Like, he's not an extremist for rural Idaho. He's a free trial version, right? Yeah.

In January of 1993, after losing his second presidential election, Bo pivoted to a new grift. He started Spike, S-P-I-K-E. It's an acronym. Stop letting him name things. I know. He's so annoying. Spike was a training program. that stood for specially prepared individuals for key events.

That means nothing. I swear, I was so worried you was about to say, like, Spike TV. No, yeah, he found it Spike TV. I was like, yeah. So, the idea was, he was bringing in experts to teach classes that would turn regular... You could, like, order VHS tapes off the Internet, and it will turn you into a special forces operator if you watch enough of them, right? That's all that standing in between you and being a Navy SEAL is watching enough VHS tapes.

That's actually true. By the VHS tape cassette series, I've got going on. I don't know what to call it. I didn't think of an acronym, sorry. Anyway, Spike winds up ultimately building a video library of about 100 hours of content that they would ship to anyone willing to pay. Now, by the early 90s,

Bo had also relocated to the Pacific Northwest, where we all call home. Uh-huh, yeah, because this is coincidentally right around the same time as the so-called Northwest Imperative, really gets going. This is the idea of moving white people on moss to this part of the country

in order to create a new white homeland. Now, it starts to really pick up, it doesn't start, it starts to really pick up steam in the 90s, right? And coincidentally, this is also when Bo launches a new business venture. What does he call it? I'm telling you.

He sells parcels of land in an intentional community from members of the militia movement called Almost Heaven. Stop letting him name things. Billed as a constitutional covenant community, almost heaven was a way to take the underlying ideology of the Northwest imperative and extend it beyond stock Nazism to something palatable for a wider but still far-right audience.

He claimed to have picked the location by studying maps of nuclear fallout and military bases to determine the safest place in America. Wow. I think it's where the land was cheapest. He announced the start of this new venture by crashing a, Camia Town Hall meeting in 1994 and declaring the public school system a cesspool and accusing the local government of being run by and then he uses a slur for gay people. It starts with F. Local resident and activist Larry Nims later claimed, Grites came here and made a lot of noise.

He told people that if they didn't like him, then get out of Dodge. And I'm thinking, who is he to tell people around here to get out of Dodge? He didn't even live in Dodge yet. And NIMS, my heart goes out. NIMS is like. a progressive activist in rural Idaho in the early 90s who's like we'll talk about like Bo is the one who brought a lot of guys with guns out here right like this has not been a problem before him

but he really makes like the current state of affairs is seriously influenced by Grites right amazing yeah I'm just like learning it's fucking bummer yeah the Aryan nations had been out in Hayden Lake previously so it's not entirely undergrides but he does play a significant role

in this because of how famous is, right? I still just wonder, and it's like, this sounds like a joke, but I'm like, dead serious. I'm like, man, what do they eat? I'm like... Nazi? Oh, no, guys. Well, like, if you were going to make

an almost seven, because I'm like... You can still go to the grocery store. So, yeah, so I used to live in Portland. I lived in Portland a while back, you know what I'm saying? But like, I mean, this is like the double dragon joint with the, like, the... This pock, pock, like. I'm

I'm like, there's so many good places to eat here. I'm like, you don't want that? No, no. He's living in the woods eating dried food that he bought off of, what's his name, Baker, the fucking weirdo. Yeah. Jim Baker. Jim Baker. Thank you very much.

I recently watched the movie, by the way, about him that came out recently with Andrew Garfield. Good. Why y'all haven't got no, like, old bay. Right. Seasons. That's why it's almost heaven. It's almost heaven. They forgot the seasoning.

It's a low sodium, man. So, wow. Almost haven't worked for a little while. Unfortunately, Bowen's business partner made the bad decision to buy their land as a common law trust. And I don't know a lot about this, but the way in which they did this made it very difficult for their customers to get titles. It's basically impossible. They couldn't get titles to their property in their names, and they couldn't get property insurance in their own names, which is a problem. A flurry of lawsuits followed.

followed by people who thought that they had been conned. Pretty true, accurately. And problems escalated as contractors started suing Grites and his business partner for failing to pay for road construction and other infrastructure work. They kind of took a leaf out of the Trump book, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The slow collapse of almost heaven was escalated both by incompetence like this and the fact that, more than anything, Bo wanted to make money, not fund a right-wing revolution. And a lot of his critics on the right are like, Bo, aren't you making the army that's going to, like, liberate us?

No? Oh. So, the other problem is that Bo keeps taking calls throughout the late 90s from the FBI to try and talk down militia groups like the Montana Freeman, which ultimately alienated his third wife, Claudia, a former karate instructor. Did I miss the second wife?

Yeah, that was the lady he met, the sex worker that he meant to be in a. Shockingly, it didn't last. Yeah. who knew? Marriages that start in Vietnam Yeah Stay at Vietnam

That's a good one So like all those P.O.Ws By the end of 1998 That was good That was very good By the end of 1998 Bo's business partner had stolen nearly all of the money

made by almost heaven And Claudia left him After 24 years of marriage Claudia did 24 years She did in there a while. Girl. She stuck it out.

Bo attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest in December of 1998, but he survived and is still alive today. God. I don't have a happy ending here. He did shoot himself. Again, for whatever reason, a through line in this guy's story is people shooting themselves in weird ways. The chest?

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to back. Seat, kill Bogue Rites to Bogue Rites, but... However. However. Yes. All right. That concludes the Behind the Bastards episodes.

Jeez. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Coolzone Media, visit our website, CoolzoneMedia.com. Or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, YouTube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman.

And this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. A new true crime podcast from Tenderfoot TV in the city of Mals in Belgium, women began to go missing. It was only after their dismembered remains began turning up in various places

that residents realized a sadistic serial killer, lurking among them. The murders have never been solved. Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence. The Monstre, Season 2, is available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, host of the podcast Zone 7. Zone 7 ain't a place. It's a way of life. Now this ain't just any old podcast, honey. We're going to be talking to family members of victims, detectives, prosecutors, and some nationally recognized experts that I have called on over the years to help me work these difficult cases. I've worked hundreds of cold cases you've heard of and thousands you haven't.

We started this podcast to teach the importance of teamwork and solving these crazy crimes. Come join us in learning from detectives, prosecutors, authors, canine handlers, forensic experts, and most importantly, victims' family members. Come be a part of my Zone 7 while building yours. Listen to Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionous History,

we're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years, that's probably not long enough. I didn't kill them. From Revisionous History, this is The Alabama Murders.

Listen to Revisionous History, The Alabama Murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.