Behind the Bastards - Part Two: Bruno Bettelheim and The Quest To Make a "Good" Concentration Camp

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Bruno Bettelheim has now made it to the United States, where he executes his elaborate plan to fix "emotionally disturbed" children by making a nice concentration camp.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about bad people and problematic people. We've got both this week with the story of Bruno Bettelheim, a man who is really, really testing. My previous conclusion that there's no wrong way to react to having been in a concentration camp. Maybe this way. Bruno might've been the guy to figure out the wrong way. Had to lose all sympathy.

Yeah. My guest with me again, as in part one, Allison Raskin. Allison, how are you doing? It's the same day, but we pretend it's a separate one. I'm good. What I didn't reveal in episode one, which I feel like will be more relevant

for this part of his life story, is that I actually have had OCD since I was four years old. So I was someone who was treated for pretty severe mental illness as a young child and was put on Prozac when I was four and was actually incredibly thankful for my parents being proactive in that way and getting me the help that I needed.

So I'm like not so, but then it is all against taking children's mental health seriously? Yeah. It's a lot of the activism I do, but I think we're about to explore a scenario where that goes wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong. Yes, yes, exactly.

Well, it's also, it's interesting because a big part of Bruno's story and a big part of where people go wrong, because as you said, it's good to be involved and care about your children's mental health and the mental health of children in general. Bruno as a young man takes this kid in who is neurodivergent and her mom just like, I don't want to raise a kid, right? I'll find someone else to do it for me. And Bruno's whole business as an adult is not just I'm helping kids who are having problems, it's I am taking these kids away from their rich parents who do not want to deal with

them and handling them, which is very different from the healthy version of this. Because I have a lot of empathy even in this time, where we talk about he's diagnosing kids as things that we would not today because they just don't... I'm not judgmental of someone who legitimately is trying to help kids and it's just like, we called things by different names then, we didn't know as much as we know now. It's one thing to make errors,

it's another thing to have your whole goal be, what if a concentration camp but nice for children? Like, which is again, part of the motivating factor here. And also like, we're still getting stuff wrong now. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like psychology. Tons of them. Then it was, but it's still a flawed system.

And there's also a lot of debate about the merits of diagnosing at all. I'm someone that has found comfort and sort of clarity in being diagnosed and have having my diagnosis pretty much my whole life. But a lot of people don't feel that way. And so it's an interesting debate.

And they feel totally different about it than in the 40s. Like one thing they do constantly is diagnose kids as psychotic, right? Which you cannot today. That is not something that happens. Cause like, the idea that like you would diagnose a child as being a psychopath, right?

Is very normal then, right? And then- Well, now they'll do oppositional defiant disorder. Right, right. Which is like a pathway or whatever towards that eventual diagnosis. But there are certain restraints around what age you can call people certain,

what age you can give them certain things. And that just like, it's the Wild West in Bruno's era. My name is Kyle Tequila, host of the shocking new true crime podcast, Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old. People are dying. Is he doing this every night? Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life

as a mafia hitman. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything. He was a freaking crazy man. He was my father. And I had no idea about any of this until now. Crook County is available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Tremorchi. And I'm Holly Fry. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves we uncover the secrets of history's most interesting

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To have a murderous gruesome as Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down here. In Marion, Illinois, an 11-year-old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live-in girlfriend maintaining innocence, but charged with her murder. I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty. They've never found a weapon, never made sense.

Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail. The person who did it is still out there. Listen to Murder on Songbird Road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, Bruno has, at the time we're starting up here, he has just gotten over to the US.

He has escaped the Holocaust and he has gotten a job. He started out as an academic. He had lost his family business at this point. He has no money, but this lady who, you know, he had helped raise her daughter is kind of taking care of them, right? And the understanding is that they need to figure out something, but like they're not immediate, they're not like on the streets or whatever, right? And Bruno very quickly is able to get work for himself. Although there's also some problematic aspects because his initial gig,

he gets hired to be an English teacher in Portland, Oregon. And then World War II starts. And suddenly the idea of having an Austrian man teaching English is like, we're not really bullish on the Austrians right now. Oh, even though you were a victim of the Nazis, we don't actually have a teaching position for you. It just feeds his like the persecution

and the everything that's happened to him until then. Yeah, although it's also, there's a degree to which this works out well for Bruno because he doesn't really wanna be an English teacher and he doesn't wanna be in Oregon. He teacher and he doesn't want to be in Oregon. He falls in love with the idea of the city of Chicago, in part because it has a more European layout, so he finds it more similar to where he'd come up. He is very interested in child development and educational reform.

These are like academic interests. He's not a professional in these yet, but this is what he wants for himself. So he kind of works as an academic for a few years until in 1944, he receives his US citizenship. That same year, he gets the job that will be responsible for most of his fame and for most of the problematic things he's going to do in his life, which is directing the orthogenic school. Now I know what you're saying. Robert, orthogenic school sounds dystopian as fuck. That is a scary name for a school. And it is a scary name.

The word orthogenic comes from Greek and it literally means straightening out. So the school for straightening out kids, that's a scary thing to call a school. It had been established in 1915 and it was a residential facility where kids were interned until their behavior was deemed to be fixed, right?

Like that's the, like where it is. So this is a, when you talk about a residential facility, some of them have elements, and this is certainly the case at the time of like a prison, right? Now, this is not one of those. This is for kids with resources, right? These are for kids with, whose parents have money.

So this is not like the, this is not like the worst versions of these facilities, right? And in fact, from the beginning, this is kind of viewed as a response to those facilities, which are a lot uglier. It was a unique place geared not just for emotionally disturbed kids, but for, and these are the terms they use at the time, but specifically for emotionally disturbed children of quote, above average intelligence, right? Now this means rich white kids, right? Ah, yes. Yes. That when we say above average intellect, right? These are kids whose parents have money and thus our goal is to make sure they have a future, right?

It would be fun to go through history and find all the different euphemisms for rich white kids. Yeah. Yeah. And it's in, when the school is founded in 1915, they use these, they don't say, this is a school for rich white kids. They say like, this is emotionally disturbed,

but above average intelligence kids, right? As soon as Bruno takes over, he's like, no, no, no, let's just say it's a school for rich white kids. That's what we're doing, right? That's what we wanna do here, you know? And as soon as he takes over, his first job as director is to turn this into policy. Prior to him taking the director job,

the school had not had a whites only policy on paper. Bruno institutes one. He's like, look, let's call a, we're racist as fuck, we're racist as fuck, and just say it's white. And again, this school in 1915 isn't willing to say that. In 44, Bruno's like, oh, obviously we're whites only. You go right from a concentration camp to like a whites only, whites only a whites only policy.

I mean, it feels so like directly a I need to align myself. Oh yeah. The people in power. Yes. Like I can no longer be viewed as other. And so it's like this, right? Because I mean, some people at that time probably didn't definitely didn't view Jews as white.

Like then it would be like, you're not allowed to be at this school. Especially not at that time probably definitely didn't view Jews as white. Like, then it would be like, you're not allowed to be at this school. Especially not at this time, no. It's his way of like making sure that he's in with the people in power. And he does a lot of writing about his attitudes that like, he doesn't like Christianity either because he's not a religious guy,

but he thinks it's better than Judaism. The school will be specifically a Christian school, even when it is educating kids who don't come from Christian families. He tries to acculturate them. The only holiday they celebrate at the school is Christmas. His attitude is very much, even when the students are not from a Christian background, I want to acculturate them as white Christians, right? And that is-

Me, a Jewish man, would love to do that. Right. Yeah, I know exactly how to celebrate Christmas. Now Bruno justifies his whites-only policy by arguing that racialized children, that means non-white kids, would confuse the white kids and harm their recovery. The term racialized to describe kids that just aren't white. No, these kids, they can't handle the shock of seeing someone who isn't white. That'll fuck up their recovery.

That person doesn't look exactly like me. I have to commit a crime. I can't handle it. I can't handle it. I'm gonna go rob a bank. Yeah. Now, Bruno also wrote that he was only interested in white students from quote, good high-class stock. That meant kids whose families could afford

to send them to college. He instituted a tuition of 8,000 to $12,000 a year to ensure that no poor children were educated at the orthogenic school. If you're curious- That's in the forties? That's in the 40s? That's in the 40s.

Wow. That is, this is like really, like high grade university education is what this costs per year. And the expectation is that you will put them in there at least for two years and many of them for like something like 10 to 12, right? He really wants you to give your kid to him for that kid's entire childhood. Otherwise he can 10 to 12, right? He really wants you to give your kid to him for that kid's entire childhood. Otherwise he can't fix them, right? That's his motivation.

But then if you do, they come out great. But then they come out perfect. But if they see a person with different color skin, they will start screaming. No, no, you gotta let me have them until they're like 20, you know? Make sure they don't see anybody else. They can't see anyone else or they will lose it.

Yeah, there's like 40 to 60 kids at this institution at any given time. Now, Bruno also has another issue with the school as soon as he takes over. First job, make it expensive as shit, only white kids. Second job, he has a real issue with the fact that the orthogenic school, the motto is, a place to grow straight and tall, allows disabled kids to be educated there.

He doesn't like that because somebody with a physical disability can never grow straight and tall in Bruno's eyes. So again, one of the first things the Nazis do is go after people with, specifically children with disabilities. This is how they test the gas chambers, right? Which are initially like mobile execution vans for disabled people. What is one of the first things Bruno does

when he starts this school? No more, get those disabled kids out of here. None of them. I mean, he's really telling on himself, right? That he wrote that paper that people's reaction to being in a concentration camp is to become a Nazi. That was kind of your reaction, huh, Bruno? He was just like, no, I've just become a Nazi. Therefore, everyone else must have as well.

Okay. In an article for Disability Studies Quarterly, Griffin Epstein writes, whereas prior to his tenure, the school offered a residential program for children with epilepsy and cerebral palsy, Bettelheim was certain that public institutions could handle such cases. This was a bold claim given that public schools weren't mainstreamed in the United States until the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975. In the 40s, thus, those public institutions handling children with epilepsy and CP were abusive state institutions, group homes, and hospitals." So he just got a license and says, ah, the schools can handle them. Epilepsy and CP were abusive state institutions, group homes and hospitals.

So he just got a license and says, ah, the schools can handle them. And the schools are like, oh no, we just lock those kids up. We don't know what to do with them. You know? Well, in his opinion, that's handling them, right? That's handling them, right? Because it can't be fixed, you know, in his attitude, right?

Bruno's second act as director of the orthogenic school was to recruit a new population of students. And he focuses mostly on children with autism You know, second act as director of the orthogenic school was to recruit a new population of students. And he focuses mostly on children with autism and others who he calls, quote, young victims of extreme psychosis. And the reason he picks these kids, and again, we would not diagnose them the same way today, but these are all kids that he sees as not having visible physical disabilities, right? That is the key point, right?

That's what he means by autism, right? That is the key point, right? That's what he means by autism, right? Is something is not neurotypical about this kid, but they are not in my eyes, physically disabled. That is what he means by this, right? They're not like developmentally delayed in a physical way of mankind. Yes, yes, yes. That's certainly how he sees it

to continue with that article. In constructing a dialectical opposition between epilepsy, cerebral palsy and autism, Betelheim helped to tacitly promote a eugenic logic of unreformable versus reformable bodies, you know? And yes, that is some very, very Nazi adjacent shit. The whole time he was in that camp, he was like, these are good ideas.

These are good, if it wasn't the Nazis doing them, I wouldn't have it like. Yeah. That's what he's taking a lot of notes on. He's taking some wild things from his experience. The medical logic behind all of this is also rooted in Bruno's writing about concentration camps. In a letter to the Journal of the American Academy

of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Bruno's friend Alvin Rosenfeld explained of Bruno's beliefs, quote, Betelheim showed the world how extreme abuse such as concentration camp incarceration could severely distort personalities. That formed the basis of his treatment model and laid the foundation for much of our thinking about child abuse and post-traumatic stress disorder. And there is aspects of this that are positive and that are undeniably accurate. One of Betelheim's legitimate achievements is that he is an early proponent of the idea

that if you are working with emotionally disturbed or mentally ill children and they are engaging in behavior that you don't want them to engage in, your first task is to understand the internal logic of the child. Why do they think this is a good idea? Why are they choosing to act in this way? That you should seek to figure out why they want to do things. In other words, what's going on in the kid's head

is important. That is a fairly unique idea at the time. And that's a legitimate positive you know, positive step. And also I imagine what are they getting out of it? Right. Like what is reinforcing this behavior? Right, yes. I think that that's a big part of it.

And that's overall like a good direction to be going. Unfortunately, Betelheim has another belief and it's one that he will talk openly about this idea that like you need to understand why the child is making, that is doing the things that they're doing, Heim has another belief, and it's one that he will talk openly about this idea that you need to understand why the child is doing the things that they're doing, their internal logic. He will also say the whole time, you should never use physical punishment on kids. You don't do it.

There's no cause for it. The entire time he is working at this, he is running this school, he is physically punishing these kids. He just lies about it to parents and to academics by saying, don't do this. We never do this. The whole time he is using physical and mental abuse to be very clear. Right? And it's interesting to me that he knows he has to deny it. Right? The cognitive dissonance of like- Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's one thing to believe, like, I think physical, you know, punishment gets good results. But to know that, to like also know enough to be like, no one will like that, or that's actually not true, but that's what I want to do to get the quickest results or, you know, it's horrifying. I mean, it is very interesting. All research shows that any form of physical punishment is not helpful.

Even spanking has been proven that it is not good. It's interesting to me that if he were to have said at this time, obviously you spank kids, sometimes you slap them a little bit, that would not have been controversial. That would have been in the 40s, well within the standards of like normal childhood education, right?

The fact that he's like, no, no, no, you should never do this, but is still doing it is so interesting to me. He's a deeply troubled man. Yeah. This guy, Alvin Rosenfeld, who was Bruno's colleague and friend, partly defends the fact that Betelheim uses physical violence.

He argues that unlike most institutions at the time, the orthogenic school didn't use shock therapy, it didn't have restraints or any other violent tools, but sometimes the kids were so out of control that they needed physical intervention. And Bruno courageously handled that unpleasant task for his subordinates, assuring that, quote, they were free to be far more nurturing. He admits that Bethlehem sometimes meted out punishment that included slaps, but he frames this as minor

for the era. Now, I won't say that like what he did was extreme for the era, but it wasn't mild, right? And we have a lot of reports from kids who were with him during this period of time, and they do not report a mild experience. I don't talk about this a lot on the show because I'm not an expert or an educator, but I did work in special ed as a paraprofessional for the better part of two years. I'm unwilling to give detailed stories on the era for reasons that should be obvious

and relate primarily to the privacy rights of those children, but I will say that I dealt with primarily kids who were frequently violent and who were about my size. These are 17, 18, 19, 20-year-olds, and many of them are non-verbal. The term we would use at the time was non-verbal. Because of my size, I worked with these kids very closely because I could take a hit and I was hit every day on that job. One of my colleagues suffered a near fatal injury, a TBI. Another had a broken jaw. So this was a, I understand sometimes you have to use restraints to protect yourself and others. With kids who, and some of the

kids were what we would call emotionally disturbed. There were a variety of diagnoses that you had there. I'm aware of the need sometimes to restrain kids. So I want to emphasize that's not what's going on with Bruno. For one thing, restraining is sometimes there's force involved in restraining a kid. It's not violent. Your job is not to harm them physically. Your job is to stop them from causing harm to

themselves and others. And sometimes the only way to do that is to like physically hold them so that they can't hit somebody or whatever. Right? This is like a very difficult thing to do and to talk about. I really don't know how to get across. I'm very empathetic to the people who are good at this job. And I want to emphasize, I had no training in it. We simply don't get training. Like that's another, a major, massive problem. That's what's horrifying. It's very, like I had a four hour class

on like physical restraint and none of it, none of it was functional stuff. And there's also different types of restraints and some are more harmful than others. Yes, yes. And it was 15 years ago. I think it was very primitive, and we were not adequately trained to do the job.

I can only imagine how bad it was in the 40s. But again, what Bruno is doing here, none of the stories that I have from other kids are, he had to make difficult choices because a kid was violent and presented a danger to others. He was annoyed at a behavior and so he hid a child. That is what Bruno, and I really want to emphasize, I'm not naive about the complex choices that have to be made sometimes here. That's not what's going on with Bruno.

What he is doing to these kids is sadistic physical abuse on a level that I have trouble comprehending. One of Bruno's students is a kid named Ronald Angres. He spent 12 years at the orthogenic school during which he rarely saw his family. Bruno believed it was bad for students to have regular contact with loved ones, and he pushed heavily for parents to keep their kids enrolled there for the entirety of their childhood, right? You are abusing your kid if you try to take them back

and raise them in your home. That's bad for them. I have to have total control over them for the whole time their children. Not a great sign there. Anytime there's an encouragement for a child not to have direct communication with their parents, something bad is happening.

That's such a good point that like, anytime someone is being like, no, no, no, you really shouldn't see your kid, they're doing something fucked up, right? That's just, yeah, probably a very durable truth. Speaking of durable truths, here's some ads. It takes one guy out there to say, who's that f***ing Kyle who thinks he can just get

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Ronald Angres. Um, Angres was diagnosed by Bethlehem as autistic. We almost certainly, I will say certainly, I think would not apply that diagnosis to Angus today because his primary symptoms were that like, he was bad at sports, he was a little slow learning how to read, and he like fidgeted sometimes.

He had a thing for daydreaming. Everything that he describes is what I would call like, okay, well, you're just a kid. Some kids take longer to learn to read than others. Some kids aren't good at sports. I wasn't good at, some kids fidget. None of that is what I would call like, or what I think any expert would say like diagnostic criteria

for anything really, right? Like they're not saying like he was not incapable of like learning how to read or anything. He's just a little slower than others. Fairly normal kid, right? But Angra's father was a psychoanalyst himself and a rich one at that. And he diagnosed his child as disturbed

for a variety of utterly anodyne reasons. Quote, sometimes I skipped while I paced. I had other unacceptable mannerisms too. I sometimes talked to myself, lips moving when lost in thought. Again, these just sounds like things people do. Like. Such an urge to over pathologize.

Yeah, yeah. Your kid's just talking to himself like children do. And I also feel like there's, sometimes what happens is like the expectations people have for how children should behave is not realistic. So then it's like, oh, your kid didn't sit through a four hour movie without wanting to get up and fidgeting, something's wrong with them. It's like, oh, your kid didn't sit through a four hour movie without like wanting to get up

and fidgeting, something's wrong with them. It's like, no, developmentally, they're not gonna be able to do that. That's a normal reaction. Totally normal for, and that so much of what's going on here is that these are rich parents and they are annoyed that their kids maybe need a little bit of extra help, maybe aren't immediately ready to go to fancy dinner parties

or the net or something, right? And so they're like, well, I'm just gonna have you, I'm gonna lock you up with this guy, this weirdo. That seems like much better. Because they're children and they're only interested in adults. They just want their kid to act like an adult, but like look cute.

I am a rich professional in the 1940s. I have high balls to drink and benzos to eat, you know? Like I have no time to raise my own children. So Ronald's father's sense of professional ethics meant that he couldn't treat his own son. The orthogenic school has a reputation, has a reputation, it's still around, for feeding children very well.

This is a, again, this is a high dollar institution. They have excellent food. It is an excellent space. It is a very immaculately clean. There is every kind of like piece of educational equipment is all state of the art, right? Very nice furniture. This is a nice place, right? I really need to emphasize that if you look at it as a rich guy, you will be impressed

at the quality of the facility itself. Now, Bruno would claim all his life that no child was ever admitted to the orthogenic school without having a chance to visit and decide for themselves to consent to come. Ronald says, bullshit. He was interviewed. Yeah. He says, I was interviewed by Bruno,

but I would never have consented to go to that school because from the moment we met, he was cruel and belittled me. Quote, I drew for him a picture of a man. I don't remember now if he asked me to, but all the psychologists seem to crave such pictures. And I may have tried in this fashion to break the ice. What a stupid and ugly picture, he snapped. I did not yet know he fancied himself an art connoisseur. You did not draw his hands. They're behind his back, I explained. You just did that because you can't draw hands. Do you know what it means when a boy can't draw hands?

I did not. I still don't. What the fuck does that mean? What does it mean, Bruno? Hands are like objectively hard to draw. It's really difficult to draw hands. Yeah. Wow.

So much anger. Just saying such a angry view of the world and like such a, it's so funny these people that like their whole goal is to like get people to act correctly are so emotionally unregulated themselves. Yes, yes. Like he got so outraged that this little boy didn't draw hands.

He doesn't draw hands. It's like you need to go do some deep breathing, Bruno. These are not appropriate reactions that you're having. What does it mean when a child can't draw? And I wanna continue that write-up. To appease him, I redrew the picture and added some hands, carefully showing all five fingers. Preposterous!

You drew the hands entirely out of proportion. They're bigger than his head! Once more, he scowled darkly, as if I were expected to know the sinister significance of such a reversal of normal proportions. He asked what I hoped to become when I grew up. A scientist, I replied. Ridiculous, he spat.

You wanna be a scientist? You can't even read. Again, this is a child. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha here Bruno, like from the standards of a period of time in which parenting was, shall we say, rough, like that is bad child rearing. It's also very funny to like, like imply that the children were allowed to give consent and had to give consent. Given that at that time period, I think the idea that children could give consent or should was like not a normal concept.

The idea that adults could give consent wasn't really a normal concept. But like, I feel like very few families viewed children at that time as autonomous individuals who were worthy of giving consent, you know? So like, no way was that happening. It's such a weird thing that he would insist on like telling the lies he chooses to tell

are always very strange to me. But they also are revealing of how much he actually knows of what he's doing is wrong. Yes, yes, that's a very good point. That he does understand that this should be a thing the child consents to. He just doesn't give a fuck. Or maybe it's some guilt that he has.

And so his lies are around the things he feels shame or regret around. And so he's lying to himself, who knows? If I tell the lie, I can normalize the behavior I know is good, even if I've fallen short, right? Maybe it's something like that. Oh yeah, like maybe I, well, I'm not doing it, but I'm putting that out in the world or whatever.

But I actually think this guy might think he is doing it. I mean, I think there might be just such a disconnect between his actions and who he thinks he is. Yeah, I think that may in fact be the case. Angres calls him rude after this point. Fair point to the kid. And he later wrote that he would have been utterly shattered if he'd known then that he was about to spend

the remainder of his childhood in Bruno's care. So his parents send him to the school. When he starts at the orthogenic school, he's allowed to bring his favorite toys and the like with him. His prized possessions are his comic books. And as soon as Bruno sees them, he announces a new rule, no comic books. He also takes issue with one of Ronald's toys, a wooden train, which he called stupid. Oh my God.

Man, it's a train. Show out. What the fuck, dude? No, this is all pretty abusive, but by far the worst thing. Well, honestly, I don't know if the, like it's all pretty bad, but he also uses physical violence against little kids.

Here's how Angra's later described his treatment at Bruno's hands. I lived for years in terror of his beatings, an abject animal terror. I never knew when he would hit me or for what or how savagely. Betelheim prized his unpredictability, no less than his unconventionality. As someone who saw the secret depths of men's souls, he glorified in defying ordinary notions of which offenses were important, or even what constituted an offense. What hostile character he would say of me and countless other boys as he beat us publicly. These beatings, which made the greatest impression on me of anything

that I have known in life, stick in my memory as a grand performance of exultant rage." Yeah. I mean, look, I think we're learning that that going through the amount of trauma that Bruno went through. Yeah. When you don't like treat treat it or in any way deal with it. Yeah. treat it or get the support that you need. And when you then kind of claim psychology as something that you have ownership over, when you actually haven't done any work on yourself

can be a really nasty outcome. And yeah, it's interesting to me, it is probably worth really re-emphasizing that he is not this way with that first kid. Now he doesn't really spend much time parenting her, right? He's working, but that kid that he helps to raise in Austria, he's not hitting. At least she does not recall him being anything like this, right? Well, he hadn't been in the camp yet. He hadn't been in the camp yet.

Yeah, he hadn't. I wonder how much of it is the camp and how much of it is like he hadn't remade himself as a psychoanalytic expert yet, right? And I don't think you can ever know which of these did more, but he's obviously, he's a very different guy in terms of how he treats children after the camps. And that's something that really deserves to be kind of re-emphasized.

To continue with Angra's story, once some all-school games were organized, we played musical chairs. A boy I shall call Seymour jumped into a seat before I could, and from then on until the end of the game, which I had to watch from the sidelines, he silently taunted me, smirking and wiggling his behind in time to the music, which bumps in my direction. After the game finished, Seymour approached me with that gloating smirk still on his face I said I wish I could chop your head off the counselor promptly told Betelheim who just as promptly beat me adding neck chops to his standard slaps and a denunciatory

Monologue in case I missed the poetic justice of it all And again, you see like pretty normal kid to say something like that. Not a weird thing for a kid to say This is a thing where you need to sit both of those kids down and talk to them He'd like mock cuts his head off by hitting him in the neck, which also You just I mean you shouldn't hit kids at all, but you certainly shouldn't hit children in the neck Yeah, my dog likes to like walk on me in the morning. And yeah when he puts his paw on my neck I'm like, ow, that's such a sensitive.

Luckily until I got this dog, I didn't understand how much neck pressure hurts. Yeah, and like the fucking, I mean, we could talk about choke chains and the like, which are also common at the time, but like the kind of immediate willingness where he's like, this kid talked about cutting another kid's head off, obviously the right thing to do is hit him in the neck. That's a very telling logical leap that he makes there.

Now these stories that Angra's tells are very consistent with the stories multiple other former students give of their time under Bruno's tutelage. They also comport with the stories of employees who work as teachers and staff members at the orthogenic school during this time. One of those former staff members was a guy who wrote about his experiences for the Chicago Reader under the pseudonym WB. I find his account valuable in part because Bruno's friend and defender, Alvin Rosenfeld, acknowledges that Bruno used physical violence, but also insists that most of the complaints

from students, which he views as unfair, came from later in Bruno's career. He's like, well, they were angry because he kind of died before their education could finish. And so they, you know, they're transmitting feeling, their feelings of abandonment to like claiming he was abusive. And this guy's account puts the light of that. For one thing, WB comes to work at the school early on in Bruno's tutelage there,

and he is a World War II combat veteran. So this is not a guy who is inclined to be shocked by violence, right? Like if this guy reacts to your violence, you're really out of fucking pocket, right? Quote, a number of us were veterans who had probably seen more of life by age 21 than Betelheim had seen at age 40. I do disagree with that because he was in the camps, man. But this guy's got, definitely has like a bit of an axe to grind with Betelheim.

That fact never seemed to penetrate Betelheim's low threshold of awareness of the true nature of the world around him. He tried to bully the counselors as much as he did the defenseless children in the school. He was just a bit more circumspect with us veterans. He notes this guy that most orthogenic school employees were women. That is a real thing Bruno does. He likes to be surrounded by women. These folks are very loyal to Bruno.

WB describes the female employees at the school as his Roman cohorts. These are his power base, these female counselors. Rosenfeld is like, that's why Bruno had to do all the physical violence was so that these women could be free to be more nurturing, which is a very odd vibe. But that's the way people describe it. Quote, and this is from WB, the understanding that most of the men had was that Betelheim tried to seduce everyone into relating to him as their therapist. This was a condition of job tenure.

Our general feeling was that most of the women accepted this relationship, but we never knew for sure. Their job tenure was certainly longer than most of the men's. I would characterize the atmosphere at the orthogenic school at that time as the beginnings of a cult, with Dr. B as the cult leader." And I find that interesting because he notes accurately, this guy guy that part of cult dynamics is the creation of new vocabulary and the redefinition of existing vocabulary to create a new reality in which cult members live under. This is how WB explains Bruno's use of terms like emotionally disturbed, autistic, and schizophrenic.

These are not real medical diagnoses, but these are terms reinvented by Bruno to create a reality that's convenient to him. He will say he has an 85% success rate in treating schizophrenia and autism, and that 85% of the kids that came into his school left it without these diagnoses. He's not curing these people. He is declaring them to have a thing and then declaring them cured when they behave in a way that he describes as idealized, right? And that's kind of key to it is that he gets described as brilliant for a while because

of this big 85% success rate. He is the only person judging these kids? Well, it's, I mean, this is like a thing that happens in society, these like troubled teen industry, like this is not like an isolated incident of this kind of group where these kids are declared as so problematic and then taken into this extreme environment. And then you sort of have a cult like figure at the helm the helm and all of these employees sort of just like go along with this, even though it's like, it is like this dynamic that sort of has, that continues to sort of play out.

And so there are definitely, like I'm someone who finds, like, I don't think it's so wild to describe things as cults or as cult-like if they follow certain descriptors. And this definitely feels rather culty to me. If the Kool-Aid bowl fits, right? Yeah. I mean, the difference is that these kids are not members of the cult

in the way you would see in other situations. They're sort of the prisoners of the cult. Yeah. And I think WB is trying to describe a lot of the employees as kind of- The employees are the members. Although the financial relationship, again, and he's like, I don't really know how much did they buy it? Did they just need the job, right?

Like it was unclear to him and it will be forever to us. But I do find it noteworthy that he says this, Betelheim was a professional success. Why? Simple, he defined a child's problem without any meaningful critical peer review and then proceeded to solve the problem, again, without critical review.

A generally compliant and emotionally dependent staff then put their imprimatur on his self declared and widely proclaimed success. And yeah. And it's, yeah. He's creating the rules of the world. He gets, and the world is a lot, it's a lot easier. Life is much easier when you get to do that.

Now, while, when Bruno directs the orthogenic school, he's also kind of the Dr. Phil of like the 40s through the 50s, 60s, you know, to some extent in like the 70s, and that he's a constant presence on TV, and he is brought in as an expert on disturbed children when there's a horrible crime, he's also brought in to talk about concentration camps,

antisemitism, and this is deeply unfortunate because Bruno is not really an expert on disturbed children, and he's increasingly identifies himself as white and identifies his old Jewish identity as problematic. And so the fact that he is a major public figure on all of these things is a real issue. Near the end of the 1940s, he's asked to speak at Hillel House

on modern antisemitism, and he told the assembled almost entirely Jewish audience, antisemitism, whose fault is it? Yours, because you don't assimilate, it's your fault. If you assimilated, there would be no antisemitism. Why don't you assimilate? Now, people don't take this lying down. This is offensive to the audience.

This is like satire at this point. Like, holy shit, man, what? And one member of the audience, Eric Schopter, is like, wait a second, if you're saying the solution to anti-Semitism is to end Jewishness, what makes you different from an anti-Semite? And Bruno responds, I'm only a doctor prescribing the cure? Not an answer?

Well, he is 100% an anti-Semite. There's a problem here. Yeah, that's, I mean, problematic. I had this great professor in grad school who's, you know, because psychology is a tricky field like we are alluding to, like, there can really be an unequal level of power and these people that claim to like know everything. And he he was always like, if anyone tells you that they're certain about anything, like the way he goes on these TV shows and is certain about these disturbed children, do not trust

them. That is very good advice. And particularly in Bruno's case, because as the years go on, he becomes one of the first public intellectual experts on autism. In 1967, he publishes a book called The Empty Fortress, which is one of the first influential and famous books on the treatment of children with autism in US history. Again, let me remind you, Bruno's PhD is not in any relevant medical discipline. So far as we know, he mostly lied about his psychoanalytic credentials in Austria.

The empty fortress in his book's title relates to what Bruno saw as the cause of autism. And I'm going to quote from a write up by the Autism History Project. Children took shelter there from the cruelty and indifference of their parents, mothers especially, who were supposed to love them but instead denied their humanity. The cost was impossibly high. Forced into rational solitude behind walls that shielded them from the very people whose attention they craved, babies were frozen out of normal development." In other words, people believed autism came

from your mom ignoring you, right? Yep. Yep. Wow. That's so original. Yeah, that's like out of nowhere for someone to blame it all on the moms. Out of nowhere blaming the moms. So he saw the primary cause of autism as refrigerator mothers. These are emotionally cold and distant women. And he again, he'll describe his mom as one of these later in life.

You know, I mean, he starts to at around this time. Now one allegation that you'll find here is that Bruno takes his mommy issues and turns them into what was for years. This is never the standard explanation for the origins of autism in the medical sense, but because of Bruno's prominence, it's a very common explanation, right? Because people hear this on TV, they see the book and they're like, oh, okay, that must be it. Now, responsible articles today will note accurately that this is horse shit.

The origins of autism are almost certainly genetic and 100% not caused by your mom being a refrigerator. Or vaccines, it feels important to say. Or vaccines, very important to note, also not caused by that. I also feel like historically people often blame schizophrenia on mothers too. Yes, yes.

And it makes sense that those are the two main things that he's treating. Yes, yes. And it's also worth noting that autism was often called childhood schizophrenia at the time too. Like these are, these terms are very much, again, I really need to reemphasize that. I also should emphasize that even articles today often say very fucked up things about autism.

I want to read an excerpt from a 2021 article in the Chicago Tribune about Bruno Betelheim and about him getting the causes of autism wrong. Quote, even a quick look at children who were abused or neglected by parents should make it obvious that autism is a completely different kind of problem. Eventually, autism will probably be treated with gene therapy or effective medications will be developed to counter the defect. Now that's just eugenics, right? That's just eugenics that you wrote in 2021,

guy at the Chicago Tribune. That's just eugenics. My gosh, call it like explicitly calling it a defect. No. Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. Yeah. It's a, I mean, there continues to be so much debate about like ABA therapy for children in autism. I'm sure you probably in the work you did

in special ed experienced a lot of that. And it's the difference of approaches between we have to change this person to interact with the world as we see fit versus maybe we allow this person to be who they are and create a world where that's okay. Yeah. And there's, yeah, this is something that is still developing.

I just, I wanna note, I just read that mad article and was like, oh my God, man, you're not any better than Bruno was, dude. I mean, I guess like, this is still a real problem that this podcast is not going to kind of deal with in all of the depth that it deserves, but I wanted to make a note of that. In his piece for commentary magazine, Ronald Angres makes a note that even though the state

of autism treatment and knowledge was more primitive at the time, there was ample evidence in the early days to suggest that Bruno's empty fortress hypothesis was nonsense. Quote, in fact, there was always evidence that autism may be at least partially neurological. Everyone before Bettelheim believed it was. No one but Bettelheim and his most fervent followers ever believed otherwise. And even on Bettelheim's assumption that the origins were psychological rather than biological or neurological, why go on as he did to accuse parents of such crimes, such schizophrenic symptoms as wishing their child

did not exist. Bettelheim made an art of accusation. He did not sort of blame victims. He set himself up as their special prosecutor, right? Yeah, which is an interesting and a damning way to describe that. I think this is our second ad break, so let's just go for it. It takes one guy out there to say, who's that f***ing Kyle who thinks he can just get on a f***ing microphone on a he can just get on a f***ing microphone

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wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. So it has been noted that Bruno's victim blaming of concentration camp internees bore more than a little resemblance to the way he talked about the parents of quote unquote autistic children. The identification of the aggressor, which he saw as core to the behavior of inmates, is also what he believed went on with autism. Kids with so-called refrigerator moms aped that behavior and locked away their emotions

from the empty fortress. This is Bruno, who's writing here. I had experienced being at the mercy of forces that seemed beyond one's ability to influence, and with no knowledge of whether or when the experience would end, of living isolated from family and friends, of being severely restricted in the sending and receiving of information. Perhaps this sudden reversal helped me first to understand how the camps could destroy personality and later to resume, with I hope greater insights and empathy my earlier task that of creating a milieu which would favor the reconstruction of personality."

Right? And this is him literally being like, the camps taught me that I could cure autism by making my own camp, right? Now violence was not his only tool for reconstructing personality, but insults and mockery were among his go-to tactics, and behind every effort he made was the promise of violence. This is why he pushed parents to enroll their children in his facility for the entirety of their childhood. He needed the privacy of total control to ensure he was not stopped.

From that write-up in Disability Studies Quarterly, one former student called it a dumping ground for young people who were different in some way, or who for whatever reason didn't match their parents' expectations. Betelheim was known to slap and punch children. He would often tell his students that they were at the orthogenic school because their parents couldn't stand them. He called them megalomaniacs and neurotics and forced them into uncomfortable or violent situations against their will.

Children were expected to shower naked in front of the staff and one another throughout their stay, regardless of age or comfort level, and many students and staff were physically or sexually abused. Jacqueline Sanders worked for Bethlehem for 13 years and became the director of the school after Bethlehem left. She writes, we became the abusers of abused children. I mean, sort of going back to what we were saying, like the victims are not just the kids there, it's probably also the staff that are sort of in like under this man's like control and

manipulation. And it's, I mean, it's a mini little hell that he has built. He has created a little hell for kids and for staff members. Yeah. Yeah. Now, students at this school were expected to work towards admission to higher education and the school had an excellent record for this, which has led some defenders, including former students who like most will say his violence was unacceptable, to declare the school overall still a success. This brings me to the book, The Creation of Dr. B by Richard Pollock.

One criticism that he will get from Bettelheim's defenders is that, given his own history with the school, he can't be objective. You see, Richard's brother Stephen started out as a day student at the orthogenic school, but Bettelheim insisted as always that he come to live there full time. Richard writes, over the months he made fewer and fewer visits home, becoming for me a kind of spectral sibling even before his death in 1948. Now, Stevens' death occurred when he was away from the school on a rare holiday visit with his family. He and his brother were staying

at a farm owned by a friend of the family and he fell through a hay shoot, several stories to the ground and died on impact. If you grew up on a farm, you immediately are like, oh yeah, that's absolutely how a little kid could die, right? It's one of the most dangerous things in any kind of farm is a hay shoot. It's just this hole that's going to be covered by hay a lot of the time and if you go through it, you could fall quite a distance. So Bethlehem refuses to accept, oh, a tragic accident occurred, right? He blames Rick and Stephen's parents for killing their son because they wanted to spend time with him and they should have just left him at the school full time. Now decades later, Bethlehem still holds onto this grudge because in the late night, again,

this happens in 48, in the late 1980s, Pollock, who's writing a book about Bettelheim, calls on him. And Bettelheim still remembers these parents and is still angry at them. Quote, my father, he dismissed as crude and somewhat simple-minded, a schlemiel who played the bills and stayed out of emotional problems. My mother was the villain. He said she paraded as a saint and a martyr when in fact she was almost entirely responsible for my brother's problems. My mother was the villain. He said she paraded as a saint and a martyr, when in fact she was almost entirely responsible for my brother's problems. With astonishing anger, he said she had rejected Stephen at birth, and that to cope with this lockout, he had developed pseudo-feeble-mindedness. He said that my brother was a lovely child who manifested a sensitivity

my mother wished she possessed, and he castigated her for never conceding that she was responsible for Stephen's distress and for insisting against the school's wishes that he'd be allowed periodic home visits. It's interesting that everyone has the exact same problem. That everyone has the same problems he has with his parents? That every family is the exact same dynamic. That that's the only kind of person? Yeah.

And it's weird that it's also the dynamic he came from. Yeah, I mean, what are the chances? And it's weird that it's also the dynamic he came from. I mean, what are the chances? Yeah, their dad was like his dad, their mom was like his mom, wild stuff. So Bettelheim declares in this conversation with no evidence, no, your brother committed suicide because he was so unhappy with your parents.

Again, he fell through a hay shoot, man. He insinuated the fact that their mom worked full time was part of why their brother killed himself. And he ranted, what is it about these Jewish mothers, Mr. Polak? In his book, Richard continued, in 1956, I would discover he had written that the school had warned my parents that a home visit for Stephen was ill-advised because he might harm himself. Despite our objection, the visit took place and the child died in a carefully contrived accident. Betelheim told me with utter confidence

that Stephen had once purposefully fallen out of a speedboat near the propellers, and it was only a matter of time before he found a situation like the loft in which his efforts at killing himself would succeed. In fact, my brother had never fallen out of any boat." And that anecdote really says a lot that he just will lie to this kid

about his brother's death for no reason. Not for no reason, because inventing fiction lets him redefine reality, right? And that's the essence of his pedagogy, right? Is you get to define the reality for these children and thus of the world. Like that's how it maybe, you know, this is to some extent him taking back control

over the world, which was so chaotic for him. But I don't know, like that's fascinating to me. If something doesn't fit his narrative, then he will create the details to make it fit. Exactly. Which is a really great strategy for you, but it's- For him it works, yeah. It also allows him to never have to confront any of his own demons.

No, and he's such a- So during the Vietnam War, Bruno makes a name for himself as an anti-anti-war activist, and confoundingly, he describes the kids protesting against Vietnam as neo-Nazis who were very sick and paranoics trying to beat down father to show they are a big boy. I don't know if that's what's to me. They don't wanna get drafted and go die and denang man. I feel like this is like, should be like a learning, like a learning moment about

these people that take over our media today. Yeah, like there are so many people like with these kinds of characteristics and these, these like really abhorrent personalities, who people fall for. Yep. And to become like really influential and claim to have a lot of knowledge around wellness and psychology and the right way to be a person. And it's just a reminder to be more skeptical

of what people present to you as the truth. Maybe don't trust those people. Yeah. In 1976, you had asked in part one, when does the backlash against a lot of what he's saying about the Holocaust begin? As I said, there's some immediately, but there's a big chunk of academic backlash starts in the late 70s when American Holocaust scholar Terence Deprez writes a book about the survivors of death camps and concentration camps.

His book, The Survivor, was partly a broadside against the misinformation Betelheim had contributed to the discussion. And I want to quote now from an article by Paul Rosen. Throughout The Survivor, DePres criticized Betelheim for having supposed that it was correct to have thought that prisoners ever regressed to infantilism. DePres believed that the survivors should be viewed as reminders, not of human weaknesses but of evil circumstances that were objectively powerful. Both the Nazis and Stalin's regime subjected prisoners to filth for the sake of humiliation

and debasement. Depress argued that prisoner behavior in response to such circumstances was not childish, but rather a heroic response to dreadful necessities. He cited one camp where the inmates burned it down and found throughout the literature instances of people who somehow managed to maintain their inward sanctity. Resistance took subtle shapes, and Depres explored the way human dignity endured in the form of freedom from the entire control by external forces. Survivors helped one another, engaged in acts of sabotage, and from Buchenwald, made contact

with the Allies for a bombing raid on SS parts of the camp. Depress pointed out that Bettelheim was imprisoned during a special period when criminals among inmates wielded power. He disputed Bettelheim's notion that social bonding among prisoners was absent, nor was it true, Depress argued, that they did not hate their oppressors and did not sometimes revolt. According to Depress, Bettelheim had felt superior to his fellow sufferers and his account was factually marred by his egotistical obsession with autonomy that blinded him to the extent of the mutual

support that existed within the camps. Sounds right to me. Sounds accurate to me. Yeah. Now, Betelheim responds with an article in The New Yorker arguing that Deress's book missed the realities of the experience. Depress responds a little later with an article of his own called The Bettelheim Problem. He links Bruno's conclusions about the causes of autism and schizophrenia to his supposed observations about camp life.

In a way, he seemed to be taking out his righteous anger on the SS guards, on the parents of his students. The ultimate product of this was that these people who lived for years without their children had to do so believing they were the ultimate cause of their children's problems, which is bad. It's also a great manipulation tactic, right? Because as soon as you're like, hey, maybe I shouldn't let this kid be in the school

for their entire childhood, it's like, oh, well actually though, I'm the person causing them harm. If I were to reunite with my kid, I'd actually be doing them more harm. Right, right, exactly. That's a very good point, right? And that's such a key part of what Betelheim is saying is that like you have fucked your kids up. You gave them these conditions. Only I can good point, right? And that's such a key part of what Betelheim is saying is that like, you have fucked your kids up.

You gave them these conditions. Only I can fix them, right? It becomes dangerous for you to be involved in their life. And that's why when this mom, when Richard, his biographers, like mom, insists that her other son at least get some time with the family, Bruno has to turn around and make that kid's death

be caused by that. Absolutely. In 1985, Bruno's wife Trudy passed on. Despite some early infidelities, she was by all accounts dedicated to his wife, and most people who knew him will say that her passing broke him. He was by this point an old man in poor health, and so on March 13th, 1990, Bruno Bettelheim took his own life. Now the fact that he committed suicide was just about the most understanding thing he

ever did. He was old, he was ailing. He would write a lot about the fact that he no longer felt he could be of service to society. And so I don't have trouble understanding why he did this, but the fact that he killed himself sent a shock through the psychoanalytic and educational community. And while the criticism of him for committing suicide was unjust, which is a big part of the initial reaction to his death, is people being like, oh, well, the fact that a psychoanalyst would do this must've meant that he wasn't as healthy as he portrayed himself as being.

And that's bad. That's a bad way to look at the suicide of an old man whose wife just died and who was in poor health. It also weirdly opens up the floodgates for the survivors of his teaching practices to talk about what they had endured. And that's why things are kind of messy is that the first wave of criticism of Betelheim

happens alongside people criticizing him for committing suicide, which is messy, but you do get a lot of these survivors start talking in 1990 and continue talking up to the present day. Like there's, again, some of the writings that I found on this was like much more recent as a result of the fact that like, you know, people are still processing this. There's folks who initially were like, well, but no,

the school was a good thing for me overall, who kind of come to different conclusions. There's also still plenty of schools who are like, well, but no, the school was a good thing for me overall, who kind of come to different conclusions. There's also still plenty of schools who are like, yeah, it was brutal at times, but students who were like, it was brutal, but it prepared me for success. I'm not going to judge how anybody interprets their own experience at this school. I will say one of the things people say for Bruno, which is that so many of his graduates went on to have excellent careers. Well, but yeah, but also all their parents were super rich. I don't know if we give say for Bruno, which is that so many of his graduates went on to have excellent careers,

well, yeah, but also all their parents were super rich. I don't know if we give that to Bruno, right? Like their parents were all rich as hell, maybe that had more to do with it, I don't know. Not to take anything away from them, but I just don't know that I give that to Bruno. And also I'm not surprised like you that he died by suicide because I don't think

he was mentally well his whole life. No, God, no. I don't think that he was ever at peace with himself or had like the ability to emotionally regulate or, you know, live a values driven life. Like I think he wasn't in constant turmoil since his childhood. And so, the outcome is not so shocking to me. Nope, nope, not at all. Well, that's the story!

How we feel it. Oh, I guess I'll do my annoying mental health advocacy thing of saying, I veer away from using the term committed suicide because it implies that it's a crime. That's a good point, yeah. So I prefer like the language of died by suicide. Sure. Just, but you know, who would I be if I'm not someone to say that?

No, you know, and honestly, like, it's interesting because I hadn't, I never really thought about the fact that like, yeah, using the term committing does imply that like there's a crime that's because we only use that word, right? You wouldn't say like I committed lunch today, right? Yeah, it's just so normalized. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. I think that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, it's just so normalized. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. No, I think that's a good point.

Yeah. Yeah, and that's like, it's interesting, like as a writer and as a, also then as someone in the mental health field, I am always thinking about like the impact of the word choice that we use. Yeah. And like how we are actually like subtly sending

these like messages to ourselves and to other people. But then sometimes I'll be like, I don't get why that's a problem, but then you listen to someone where it's, their point of view and it's like, okay, well, even if I still don't get it, I'll make the change. But when someone explained it to me in that way

of that it's like a crime, then it finally clicked for me about why I don't wanna use that term anymore. Yeah, no, no, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, it's like the most understandable thing about his whole story. There's so many choices that he makes that it's like, well, I don't really get where that comes from. It's interesting that the first thing he gets criticized for is that and not anything about like how he treated children or whatever. Yeah.

It's, it just feels like a very like pertinent topic to be talking about. Like I think that there's a sense that like he died in 1990. We have like a different understanding of autism now, but I feel like we're on a cusp of like, of really not having made the progress that we think we have made in psychology and in like, homeless culture. And so it's like a reminder to be like very vigilant about like falling for these, these people who have such extreme takes and claim to have the only way to handle things and are very victim blaming and, you know, separate people as a means of control.

Especially now, like we are heading into a whole new golden era for that. Anyway, you got any anything you wanna plug kind of at the end here? Well, we have to keep going. So if you're in the mood for something light, I have a rom-com novel called Save the Date coming out April 8th that you can order

wherever books are sold. It's a kind of auto fiction based off of my own broken engagement and what could have happened if I had tried to find a new groom in time for my original wedding. I didn't do that in real life, but it's based off a joke my dad made and I turned it into a book.

And then I also have my sub stack called Emotional Support Lady, which is all about mental health. And you can also hire me as a relationship coach for both individuals or in couples. Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on today. This was a hard one to listen to and I appreciate it.

Yeah, but it's important. You're doing so much to try and like explain, yeah, what was happening here. Yeah, it is. Right. And how long it took for society to catch up to the lies. Geez, like half a century, literally. Like a long time. Almost half a century, yeah. Even though the people he was talking about

were saying this is wrong while it was happening. Yeah. And that wasn't enough. Yeah. All right, well, that's the episode, everybody. Thank you so much and thank you, Allison. All right, have a good week. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media,

visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards. My name is Kyle Tequila, host of the shocking new true crime podcast, Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old. People are dying. Is he doing this every night? Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life as a mafia hitman. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything. He was a freaking crazy man.

He was my father and I had no idea about any of this until now. Crook County is available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremorchi, The Crippled interesting figures from legal injustices to body snatching. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story. Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Need the latest crime news fast? Whether it's the latest developments in a high-profile

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doesn't happen very often down here. In Marion, Illinois, an 11-year-old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live-in girlfriend maintaining innocence, but charged with her murder. I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty. They've never found a weapon. Never made sense.

Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail. The person who did it is still out there. Listen to Murder on Songbird Road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.