Behind the Bastards - Part Two: Mark Fuhrman: The Most Racist Cop, or Merely Normal Racist Cop?

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Robert concludes the story and, thankfully, the life of Mark Fuhrman, after discussing his most famous moment: the OJ Simpson trial.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

World Zone Media. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the very worst people in all of history. This week, we're on part two of our episodes on the recently and lamentably departed Mark Furman, who now that we've gotten to know, you know, the mood has turned somber here in the Behind the Bastard studio, because Sophie and our guest for today, Joe Kasabian, are all overwhelmed with grief at the titan that we've lost, you know, that there's no longer with us, the great mind, the great heart, the great law enforcement officer, Mark Furman, you know, I don't know, it almost feels pointless to go on. Why are we here? I'm really happy, though, that in death,

that he can be, you know, the United States newest gender neutral bathroom. That's right. That's right. Yeah, find out where they put him somewhere in Idaho. Yeah. The only gender neutral. control bathroom in Idaho. Just if you see a grave in Idaho piss on it, it might be Mark Furman. It might not be. No way to know. You got to roll those dice. Somehow our hearts will go on and on and on.

Let's talk about the shit, Robert. Talk about the OJ trial. I'm excited. Yeah, let's talk about, we love the OJ trial. Again, folks, if you want to watch the documentary starring Ross from Friends as Robert Kardashian, you know, we'll wait for you. But I can, I can replicate the best. best parts. Just imagine Ross from Friends saying juice over and over again. And you pretty much got

the important bits, you know. I'm really happy that Ross and Friends career could go so well. He ends up doing Brownface to play an Armenian guy because Surge from System of Down one answer his phone. I do think what is really funny to me about that is they had Cuba play OJ, Cuba Gooding Jr. and it's a weird case of like the casting doing a lot of the acting because I can believe that OJ's evil because Cuba Gooding Jr. is really evil. That's true. It was a very like, oh wow, a lot of the lifting's just being done by like, I know who Cuba Gooding Jr. is. Yeah, yeah, they nailed it on that one.

They just had no idea. Great idea. Yeah. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Hey guys, it's us The Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe I'm Kevin

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Hey, everyone. This is Teddy Mellencamp. And Tamara Judge from Two Tees in a Pod. There's been one scandal that's consumed our lives these last couple of months. We're recapping the three-part summer house reunion. And as always, we're being brutally honest. We're dissecting timelines, receipts, blind items, and previous episodes. Amanda and Wes, watch out.

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Somebody somewhere knows something. I'm Jordan Sillers. Season two is out now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or Wurton. wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk about Mark Furman. By the early 1990s, Mark Furman was a veteran LAPD detective who seems to have been somewhat popular and influential among like his, at least his clique in the department.

Mark was known for making racist and sexist jokes and for his, he's got a hobby? What kind of hobby? Do you think a guy who like joined the Marines because he like idolized violence and never got over not getting to go to war and then became a cop. What kind of, what do you think, like, one of his hobbies is? What do you think he collects? Oh. Shit.

Stamps? I'm going to go stamps. Ah, no. It's military memorabilia. Oh, God. He owns Nazi memorabilia. I was going coins. I was going coins.

I know these guys. I fucking know these guys. I am a historian by trade. And every time you meet a guy, every fucking time. Every time. Like, oh, I collect some. military memorabilia. I'm like, it's Nazi shit, isn't it? It's always, it's always, it's always, and they'll always tell you, like, you don't even have to come on to them

because they're so defensive. And that's true with Mark, because I, I noted, I read, like, two articles that it said that, oh, he got into, like, collecting, like, military, old military uniforms and awards. And so I'd wondered, but that's all they said. Like, they didn't, like, say anything, like, accuse anything. But in his own book, when Mark's saying, and like, yeah, I liked collecting old military stuff, quote, some of which happened to be German. I was like, no one even said that, Mark. No one was even asking. And you just brought it up because you knew.

Because like you knew what we knew, you know, and you had to confirm it for us. That's very funny to me. That's a direct A to B. Like no cop is collecting like, you know what? I got really into the Imperial Japanese Navy, which to be fair is not that much of a better of a choice. But like still, like they're going to one thing specifically. There's not an LAPD detective who's like, yeah, I'm just really interested actually in like the differences between the pro, like the Austro-Hungarian military proper and then like the actual like Hungarian military and the ways in which these kind of like differing like forces within the same state clashed.

And I like to collect items that sort of embody that clash and like, no, it's always just Nazi shit. Oh, no, you misunderstand me, sir. I am simply a enthusiast of the Han Venned Militaria is all. Sure, buddy. I'm the only one of the world. Yeah. Yeah. So one of his favorite cartoons, because he also likes, he loves to collect political

to cartoons, like newspaper cartoons. He's a big cartoon guy. And he has, like, a lot, a bunch of them displayed at his desk at any point in time. This is relevant because when the O.J. Simpson case blows up and whether or not Mark Mark Furman's a racist becomes an important matter for reasons we'll discuss later, people were like, he always had a swastika at his desk. Like a cartoon swastika, like displayed prominently, like taped and like displayed or something up, like pasted up at his, his workplace.

And people thought that was weird. And so in his autobiography, Mark had to be like, that's bullshit. I didn't have a drawing of a swastika. I mean, yes, there was a swastika in a drawing, but it was from a political cartoon by an artist called Paul Conrad. And the cartoon was like a swastika rising up out of the ashes of the recently collapsed Berlin Wall. I haven't actually been able to find this cartoon, but here's, this is Furman's explanation

for what Conrad was going for with the cartoon. Conrad was asking whether we were making a mistake by allowing a country with the power and history of Germany to be reunified. So that's why Furman was like, and that's why I liked the cartoon. As, you know, I thought it was asking a poignant question, and this is obviously what it meant. And that's why there was a swastika at my desk. I don't buy it.

I don't buy it. And also, that's not what the cartoon was about. Again, because Google's so fucked up, I didn't find that cartoon, but I didn't find an article that interviewed Paul Conrad about that cartoon because it came up during the Simpson trial. And the New York Times reached out to Paul Conrad and asked for comment. And Paul gave a very different explanation for what that comic meant. So again, Mark is like, obviously it means that, you know, maybe reunifying Germany is a mistake because of the Nazis. Here's why Paul said he made that comic. Following the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, Spanish, Italian, and other European workers were sent

back to their home countries to create jobs for the East Germans. Out of this came the rising up of the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, or whoever you wish to refer to them. My statement was in protest and anger that the downing of the wall, hopefully producing freedom for all of Germany, had in fact given rise to the tortured thinking of the past. That's not the same. That's not the same statement. Yeah.

He is talking about like the visible rise of the skinheads and how that like upset him and stuff. And Mark is being like, no, when the wall fell, people were just worried the Nazis were coming back. And there's just a difference between those two things. I guess it doesn't matter much in the context of the court case, but it's interesting to me. And then think of the mental pathways that lead a sergeant, I guess, and in the LAPD to look at that and be like, this is something that needs to be on my desk because it says something so poignant and powerful about the reunification of Germany. Germany? Yeah. I don't know. Nobody believes you. Kind of weird, Mark. Kind of weird.

So probably the thing that Marks Piers at the station knew best about him is that he had some issues with women. He'd lied about much of what he told that journalist, you know, McKinney and the tapes that we talked about last episode. But men against women, the group that, like, he talked about founding, was a real organization within the LAPD that has been like independently reported on. Now, it was never an officially recognized group, obviously, but it did appeal to a large number of male officers. and there's internal documentation that not only did the department brass know that men against women existed, but that they knew Furman was the ringleader behind starting it. So the group began with Mark and several other older male cops complaining about split tales, which was a cop slur for female cops.

And I don't know when it started. Mark will usually say like 85, which is like right when he got back on to patrol, which is weird that he's got like the social cloud that he's like starting this group. But maybe this is him distracting from. his own disgrace by like trying to rally everyone to attack the lady cops? I don't know. Prior to 1997, the only evidence that this group existed was those taped interviews of Mark Furman and initially Mark claimed that these had been lies, blustered to feel cool. But after the OJ Simpson case, the LAPD conducted an investigation into the tapes and into,

you know, sexism and racism within the LAPD, and they came to some shocking conclusions about the group men against women, per an L.A. Times summary of that investigation. Members of the group believed there was no place for women in the LAPD. Members would act aloof to female officers, ignore them, and try to get them into trouble during their probationary periods after joining the department. In some cases, the actions of the group inhibited some women from safely and effectively performing their duties and created fear in many women that these male officers would not provide backup if they requested it in the field, the report said.

Further, there was evidence that the men against women officers would ostracize male officers who did not support their boycott against female officers. That's kind of what I would expect. It's the same thing of like whenever we talk about black or Latino cops, be like, no, Mark Furman isn't a racist. It's like, think of the blowback that they would get if they didn't say that. You know what I mean? Like, this is how these institutions work. Yeah.

Even, I'm sure there's a fair amount of dudes who came forward to say, no, Mark Furman's a stand-up dude that had been called slurs by him or been treated like shit. But they were like, look. Then Blue Line, yeah. And that's why they, because they bring in a woman cop who had nice things to say about him. And they're like, no, I always trusted him. And the fact of the matter is, like, this is a guy who inside the LAPD was known and had been repeatedly investigated for, like, being a sexist asshole. And the fact that nobody did anything about it is proof of the fact that it wasn't weird, right? Right.

Like, it wasn't that weird, you know? casually saying the N-word all the time. Yeah, constantly. Yeah. So that 97 report revealed that men against women, the existence of this group found in the mid-80s, was exposed to the top brass to, like, the people running the department in 1986 when they held it, like the LAPD holds a closed investigation. So they're investigating this because women have complained about this group within the department,

but they're not like telling anyone. And they're not going to publish the results of the investigation. because that might... Because they already know how it's going to inform people. Yeah, exactly. After this closed investigation, the department chose to take no action and continued their investigation into why women were being harassed in their department for almost a decade. So there's a wider investigation like, why are women in the LAPD unhappy?

And there's also an investigation into the group men against women. And the department's like, well, there's nothing to do there. But it's going to take at least another 10 years to find out why lady cops are unhappy. No way to know. impossible. Certainly these two things are not connected. So investigators would later conclude that a major reason that all of this went down was that most police supervisors did not consider female officers being harassed as a problem, right? This isn't an issue. And often these superiors are members of men against women themselves. Quote from the report, supervisors had such close relationships with the officers who were harassing the women that it made it difficult for the women to lodge complaints, the report said.

In some cases, the supervisors worked with or four subordinate male officers on off-duty business ventures. Furman's supervisors not only allowed him to act out his prejudices, but they accommodated him by allowing him to select his partners and other separatist working conditions, the report said. So again, this is, Mark is racist, this group is racist, his supervisors support it. It's widely popular with a lot of men who react to Mark forming this male supremacist group by letting him, avoid working with women. Like the department isn't just allowing this. They're actually modifying their rules in order to accommodate Mark and other people like him. Yeah, Mark I love the LAPD.

Yeah. Well, for now, Mark I. It's not going to be a lasting victory, Joe, as we'll talk about. So here's where I got to do something, though. And I got to say something I don't normally say on this show, which is that I don't know if this, if Mark is as responsible for this group as this report makes it sound. Because Mark would claim to have founded the group and the report says he founded the group. And I don't know that I doubt that in particular.

I just really don't want that to lead you to think that Mark is the ringleader here. Because this makes their angle is Mark is manipulating everyone. Everyone falls into line around Mark as opposed to. I think Mark is servicing a need and desire by his peers. And that's why they accommodate him because he's giving them. what they wanted, right? And I think that's an important caveat. So that 97 report doesn't make the LAPD look good, but again, it does kind of portray Mark specifically as a guy whose unique toxicity warped the environment around him. In fact, as much as this report portrays Furman as a

deeply poisonous influence, the same year it was released, 1997, Mark puts out his own book, Murder in Brentwood, which I've quoted from a few times. And in that book, he includes a letter that LAPD chief Darrell Gates sent his mom in 1995 during the OJ Simpson trial. And here's a line from that letter. I, too, am very proud of Mark. And I know he has done his job proudly and properly and very effectively, perhaps too effectively for the OJ defense lawyers. And so if Mark is this uniquely toxic individual who warp the environment around him, why is

the police chief saying he's a great detective who did his job perfectly? why is everyone accommodating and working with him? Again, like, don't trust that format, you know? Yeah, I think there could be a few things to it, like you said. And I, it's the thin blue line at work where he can be on video or tape, like he is, routinely saying slurs, admitting to crimes that he then says he was bullshing about. But every cop's going to line up and be like, no, he's perfect. He's our perfect little boy. It doesn't matter what the evidence says.

Yep. So I think there's a little bit of that, a little bit of him being, you know, a misogynistic racist piece of shit. And a little bit of him servicing an organizational, institutional need for someone to take the reins to lead the misogynistic piece of shit club. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And someone like, I can see also why his bosses might have wanted someone deniable to lead the harassing club that makes women want to quit the job. Like they want less women cops too. like it being there because it makes them want to leave.

But they don't want to be get in trouble. They don't want that stank on them, you know? The chief of police can't be doing that shit. He has actual work to do hypothetically. Let Mark do it. Yeah. So that LAPD report concluded, the type of sexual harassment used in West Los Angeles was about power, pure and simple.

In short order, Furman exerted that power over the younger, less experienced, and therefore more vulnerable female officers. Furman's power grew every time he made an unchallenged sexist comment and roll call. Every time he blatantly ignored a female officer, every time he resolved a field situation for a female officer, and every time his behavior was reinforced by his supervisors, such as deploying him with only male partners. As his power rose, his ability to influence the peer group grew until it was Furman who set the tone for the watch, not the supervisors. And is that because he was just so powerful? Is that because the supervisors, again, figured it's better to let Furman take the heat for doing these things that we want done?

but I don't want to be responsible for doing. That's my contention. I think it's probably both. I think the supervisors, the higher ranking people want him in those positions to be the fall guy. But also kind of like we've already said, he's a bit of a charismatic dude.

People do like him. And he isn't altogether terrible at his job of being an LAPD piece of shit. Yeah, of being an LAPD officer. Yeah. So I think the two things. are kind of, you know, it's like a remoron a shark, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Like, one leads to the other, one feeds the other. Like, the supervisors want him to do this, but at the same time, the supervisors wouldn't pick him unless he was popular enough to pull it off. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, unless, like, he was really liked and respected widely. Which is, you know, something you just have to realize as you go through this. And the other thing you have to realize is that life is completely. Completely meaningless and just absolutely devoid of joy or light without the sponsors of this podcast and the many products and services that they provide. Many people are saying this.

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You know, without ads, what do we have? Nothing. You know? that's that's it that's the only reason to be that and hearing about mark firman i don't know that's very important to me personally i love hearing about dead cops yeah yeah exactly um so as good at case as all of this makes you know especially that lAPD report makes for mark being a bastard again i don't buy the centrality of just him quite as much as they want to put it out right because he's not just a poisonous worm he's a worm who's been poisoned by the other

there are, I don't know, sick worms in the apple or this analogy was a mistake. Whatever. I just want to highlight, because after the OJ trial, the LAPD has a strong vested interest in cutting Furman off like a tumor, they're going to blame a lot of their culture problems on him, as many of them as possible. And that's not really accurate or fair. You know, he's a symptom. He's not the cause.

Environmental audits performed on the LAPD in the 1990s uncovered systemic gender bias issues, not just in West L.A., but across the entire department. Penny Harrington of the National Center for Women in Policing said this at the time. Widespread sexual harassment, intimidation, and threats against women on the force remain a serious problem on the LAPD, a problem made worse by the apparent complicity of the top command. So during the mid-1980s, men against women, was said by Furman to have had 145 members in five out of 18 of the department's police divisions. So there's 145 cops in the he-men woman haters club of the LAPD. in like 87.

And maybe he's lying. I don't know what the real numbers were. I don't even know if they had like a roll call or whatever. I can't imagine they did. Yeah. And it's kind of, it's hard for me to tell because he's just getting back to patrol duty in the mid-80s. I don't know how much of this he's judging up. I will read, I'll read a quote from the Christian Science Monitor kind of summarizing his claims about how this group worked and like what they did.

Because as I said, they're holding trials. They have like tribunals. for male officers who were like nice to girls? Like it's the saddest fucking. I'm just going to read this quote. Oh, God, these guys are fucking pathetic. He also reveals that it held mock trials of male officers who were accused of fraternizing with women. Such tribunals often occurred after midnight in parking lots where participants would drink beer and sentence fellow officers to silent treatment and other means of ostracization.

So I wanted to know. It's so sad. And it's so sad that I had to know. more. I want to know more about these fucking tribunals. And so, thankfully, it turns out that back in 1997, the New York Daily News, got access to some unreleased cut parts of the tapes that referenced these tribunals. And they, like, posted, or they published an article, including quotes from that. And so I'm going to quote from that article. This is, like, explaining what these looked like. And by God, you're going to be, what would you guess is the aesthetic inspiration for these nighttime

trials of cops who are nice to girls? Uh, uh, frat? No. It's way worse. Way worse, Joe. Okay. Great. I'm going to quote from that article.

On a 1988 tape, Furman described tribunals is a cross between criminal trials and Ku Klux Klan rallies, where members would drink beer and conduct a mom truck. Again, he compares it to a KKK rally. These losers. Here's Mark. Standing around in a dark parking lot of a baseball diamond. at 3.30 in the morning, and I put my hood on, and I am calling a tribunal, and we get in a

circle with Tony standing in the middle. Okay, the charges are as follows. You were seen having a coffee with one of the enemy, Furman said. Male officers found guilty of fraternizing with females were sentenced to punishments, like a week of silence treatment or silent treatment or the back where other male officers were turned their backs on the offender. Like, my God. First off, your clan rally, your anti-girl clan. and you got a hood? What? You brought,

he brought his own hood to work. I thought the LAPD issued those with your gun. No, that's the sheriff's apartment. You got to buy your own hood and the LAPD. Budget cuts are a motherfuckerucker. B.Y.O.H. Everybody knows that.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, after Biden cut the budget, they had to, had the trim those. So, this is what they met by defund the police. Yeah,

exactly. Many of the claims, Mark made in those interviews with McKinney focused around what he would call kill parties. These were, if you believe Mark, both parties were cops celebrated and praised other officers who'd killed citizens. And a term for times in officers might just like kill someone for fun during a call. Like they show up and there's a guy that they don't like or think he's an asshole and they like kill him so that they can have a kill party.

Like he's kind of claiming that like sometimes we just like murder people that we either know or bad or don't like for fun and hold parties celebrating it. And he brought this up in part to point out that women were not invited to Maas kill parties. When like the men against women guys would hold a kill party, they didn't invite any of the girls to their cool kill parties. I believe him because we know this happens today with the LAPD and the LASD. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't doubt it. These things are confirmed, you know? Stuff like this is happening. I don't know if they call them this, but they're happening. They probably have an even more horrible. name and like the badge bending thing as well. Like all this shit still happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah, variance of it at least.

So for his part, Mark always denied that men against women was anything more than, quote, a tongue-in-cheek, beer-drinking joke used by officers to blow up steam, make us laugh, and try to forget the impossible job we had in front of us. Being a cop so hard, sometimes you got to dress up like a Klansman to hold trials for having coffee with a girl. In the parking lot, outside work. You just do the night. 3.30 in the morning.

The 1980s version of locker room talk. Is that what just happened? Jesus. Pretty much. Yep. Yep. Just blown off steam because cell phones had been invented yet, so he could just like sit around playing Candy Crush all day.

That's right. That's right. Or deep fake porning his coworkers. Which is the kind of guy Mark would have been in 2026. So he claims that after that investigation in the mid-1980s, internal affairs investigated him but found no evidence of discrimination, just a few bad jokes on the tape and in his book. Once again, falling back and calling them jokes.

Man, this shit's old as hell. Yeah. The clan rallies were just a bit. They were ironic, Robert, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, they were joke comedy clan rallies. That's what the 3K stand for, the comedy clan rally. I think that's what Joe Rogan's naming his new club. Yeah.

So on the tape and in the book, Furman repeatedly blamed police captain Margaret York for a lot of his issues. He hates this lady. Margaret York, he says that she bullied him over Ma and over a bunch of other stuff. And that when she arrived in the West L.A. Department, quote, she immediately singled me out and tried to make my life miserable. And he, like, accused, I think of, like, sleeping to the top. He says a lot of awful stuff about this lady.

And it's going to be really funny later on because of who she's married to. But we'll talk about that in a second. So McKinney would later use what she'd gotten from Mark to write a screenplay called men against women about like, oh, female cops dealing with bigotry in the LAPD, basically. It gets optioned for $1,000 by John Flynn, but it's never turned into a movie, tragically. I don't know that it was a good screenplay. I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

After her last talk with Mark in 1993, that's the last of her recorded interviews with him, she filed them away until about a year or so later she saw something crazy on the news. and this is what leads us to the O.J. Simpson trial, right? Now we're finally into the story everybody knows Mark four. So by the time of the murders in 1984, Mark had already been to OJ's Rockingham Estate in Brentwood once before in the mid-1980s, I think it was 85 or 86, because there'd been a domestic dispute between OJ and Nicole, right? And so Mark had shown up once and he'd seen, you know, a pretty bad situation, right? O.J. was an abusive guy. This is not like a fun like he had reason to not like O.J. Simpson, like going into this previously.

In 1992, he had been deployed on the streets during the unrest and rioting over the Rodney King beating and its aftermath when the cops who beat Rodney King got off, right? So he's there for the L.A. riots. Mark doesn't write much about this other than to say that he was on the streets at the time. But the fact that the L.A. riots had happened like two years earlier is really relevant to everything that happens with O.J. And I know everyone who grew up at the time knows it. But like. Sure. That's a big fear running through this. Is that like, well, if he's convicted, is there going to be like another massive uprising because L.A. had just boiled over like that. And people were really angry again about the police and police misconduct because of everything that Mark, everything I've told you about Mark comes out during this case, right? So that's all also in the mix here, too, you know. I'm not going to linger crazy long on the details of the trial itself because that's been litigated every one. in the world. I'm just going to talk about Mark's rule in it. On the night of June 12th,

1994, Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally murdered. And we all know it was O.J., right? Like, nobody's ever, you know, nobody's ever posited any other realistic thing. O.J., wrote a book called If I Did It Afterwards, you know, I don't think that's, we don't need to hop around here. So after doing it, OJ. goes to the airport and he flies to Chicago, right? And the bodies are discovered at around 12.10 a.m. on the 13th. Detective Mark Furman arrives at O.J. Simpson's house because, you know, once they know this has happened, they're obviously going to go to O.J.'s place. Ferman had been there before, so he and his partner drive to the Rockingham Estate at around 5 a.m. And he finds an apparent bloodstain on Simpson's Bronco parked outside. Now, from this point forward, things proceed fairly normally for a while. There's an investigation that commences, and Mark is not the main detective on it, but he's playing a role. He's at O.J. house. He's looking for evidence. And he is the guy who first locates the bloody glove, right? That's going to be like this major thing in the case. He is that he sees it behind the Simpson home, right? And he finds it,

but he does not pick it up, and this is important, and he doesn't introduce it into evidence. So remember that for later, but he does find it, right? And because he finds it, once this goes to trial, the prosecutors decide to put Mark on the stand to walk everyone through when he found the glove, because this is an important piece of evidence that connects OJ to the murder, right? And so they need Mark to talk about it. And it just so happens that when Mark goes on the stand the first time to talk about having found this glove, there's another lawyer watching on TV because this is a big deal from the beginning. Obviously, OJ goes on the run briefly and like that's all films. So by the time this goes to trial, public interest is as a fever pitch. And so while Mark is talking about finding this glove on the

stand, a lawyer named Robert Doish is watching the evening news, right? and he sees Mark and he tells his wife, that's the guy who found the bloody glove? And his wife is like, yeah. And I'm going to quote now from a New York Times article from 1996. Mr. Deutsch happened to be familiar with the detective from a case in which police officers shot a black robbery suspect and then Mr. Deutsch believes planted evidence against him.

After the newscast, Mr. Deutsch put in a call to Robert L. Shapiro on the Simpson legal team. He reported that the detective had once applied for a stressed disability pension and had told psychiatrists that he had tortured suspects and hated inwards. So this other lawyer who's been involved in a case with Furman where a black man was like abused, right, has because of everything that happened to that case found out about Furman's backstory because it's public. And it came out during that other case. And he calls Simpson's defense attorney, one of them.

And he's like, hey, I know something really important because the glove is the most important piece of physical evidence that the prosecutors have. And if you can say, well, this is the guy who found it, and he's a racist who planted evidence and talked about planting evidence, you can get the whole thing thrown out, right? Yeah. That's a great way to sprinkle in reasonable doubt. Yeah. And Shapiro, as soon as this guy called Shapiro and says, I know this guy is a racist who talked about framing black men, Shapiro's like, ding, ding, fucking ding, baby. Say less, you know. I know how I'm earning my salary.

right? Fuck yeah. I mean, that's like getting a gift on a platter. Oh, God, yeah. So the Juice's legal team were looking for absolutely

any angle that they could play to keep their client from spending the rest of his life behind bars. And given the recent LA riots and the filmed brutal beating of Rodney King, which the officer's responsible

for had gotten off for committing, many Angelenos were not only willing to believe that a bad cop had set OJ up, they didn't even need to be convinced of that to believe it, right? Because the bloody glove

was bad for Simpson, anything that impugned it as evidence was a priority, which meant Mark Furman was a priority. And once they start digging into the, past the stuff that Deutsche told them, they found plenty of valid reasons to believe that like, oh, this guy really might have set OJ up, right? Like, it's a believable case, at least. And the most damning thing they find during this process of digging up all the dirt they can on Mark Furman is these tapes, right? And basically somebody tells someone who knows McKinney, informs Shapiro, hey, there's a lady who was like interviewing this guy. And he said some crazy shit.

And I think he said the inward a bunch. Because by this point, Mark has set on state under testimony, oh, I never said the N word. Like, not in the last 10 years have I used that. It's so weird that he knows, like, oh, well, I haven't said it like 10 years. But you did say 10 years. You remember this happening specifically 10 years ago. That's a really weird thing to remember.

Yeah. And so it becomes really important to be able to prove that that's a lie. And the tapes will prove it's a lie. So, right, once Shapiro finds out these exist, he's going to move heaven and earth to get them introduced into evidence. And part of that is going to be making sure that the media finds out that there's tapes, right, and starts getting clips of the tapes because that creates buzz and brings up news. And soon there are news articles, quoting segments of these tapes, of these clips. Some get leaked by the defense team after they get access to the tapes. And, you know, it's bad stuff. You know, I quoted earlier a brief summary, but other things in those tapes from it admits to brutality, to police, to beating people. He admits to sexually harassing female colleagues and civilian women. He repeatedly uses the N-word. Portions of the tapes are ultimately admitted into evidence and shown to the jury. Because one of Mark's favorite stories to tell McKinney were all the ways that, like, cops planted evidence on people, and that's incredibly relevant. Jesus.

Right? Yeah. Like, and it's, again, this is often framed as like, oh, the shitty media and, oh, these tapes never should have been introduced. Though, if the detective on a case who found a key piece of evidence has 13 hours of talking about how much he loves framing black guys by planting evidence, that's actually super relevant. Even if he's lying, that's super relevant. I'm sorry, it just is. I call this Destroy My Testimony Mix tape. Yeah.

Yeah. And we're going to play a clip from the Destroy My Testimony Mixed tape. tape. This is a clip I found from the Kyra Phillips show on CNN that was part of a recent special on the Furman tapes that played some bits that had not been previously revealed. I'm going to play you a clip that just tosses out like three of these quotes so you can kind of hear what he sounded like and get like an idea of sort of the highlights. This is like a worst of the Furman tapes.

Vulgar. In White Steams, they'll fight with Jew. A little wandering Jew. A little cloudwipes that big nose. Sexist. How do you? the risk, a violent suspect. Now you're on it.

Have a man do it. Disturbing. You've got to be a borderline associate you have. You've got to be violent. Cool. So that's the kind of shit he's saying, right? I didn't include him saying the N-word repeatedly, but he does, you know? And the L.A. would claim then and after that most of these allegations had no real world backing.

He was just lying. There's no evidence of it. And, you know, he was lying a lot, but that also makes it impossible to trust Mark Furman. You know, even if he never planted evidence on anyone, the fact that he has 13 hours of pretending it does impugn his reliability. I would say so. Yeah. Best case scenario, he is just a liar. Yeah, yeah.

So many legal experts agree that the Furman tapes in specific and Mark's whole existence as a detective and involvement with the glove. may well be why OJ walked away a free man. It didn't help that he'd repeatedly shit-talked Captain York on the tapes. I mentioned this earlier. He talks a lot. She's slept her way to the top. She's always mean to me. The judge on the O.G. Simpson case is a guy, Judge Edo.

Captain York was his wife. Oh, my God. Wow. I mean, it does bring up, I mean, as funny as it is. Poor Lance. At a certain point, should have the judge recused himself from the situation? There was a big debate. And I think it was just because things had gone.

Like, they didn't want to deal with that nightmare. But no, that was a major topic of discussion. Like, that had to be ruled on. Another judge had to come in and say it's okay. Like, I don't think this will cut some stuff out, but I don't think this will, like, make it be an issue. But no, they did have to get a ruling on that. And this is one of the reasons why everyone's so pissed at Mark is because, like, this trial's already hell, already incredibly expensive, already a fucking circus and then now we have to stop it to figure out if we've got to find a new judge

because you fucking shit talked his wife a bunch on tapes to a journalist you idiot what are the fucking odds too man like firm is so funny is is a great example of a dip shit just tripping over his own feet his constantly like statistically almost impossible ways he trips over his own dick so hard the LAPD fell. Like... Yeah. Like, of all the judges, of all the people in the LAPD, he manages to go on tape for hours, shit-talking the wife of the guy that's going to destroy him.

It's amazing. It's so funny. That's fucking great. So the stupidest part of all this is, Mark never even needed to be involved in the OJ trial in the first place. There was no good reason for him to have been on, uh, oath at all. Yes, he had found the glove, but that just means he spotted it with his eyes, and he pointed it out to the other detectives, but he never touched it. It was another detective who introduced it into the chain of custody, and you could have just had that guy testify,

right? The DA's office never needed a call on Mark. I've read reporting that says prosecutors did because they interviewed him, and they found him impressive and trustworthy, because he's, like, tall and like looks like the statuesque ideal of a cop and they're like oh great yeah this guy will look good on stand next to OJ and just a horrible decision he looks like TV cop

guy he looks like a TV cop right and he'll be a great witness he should never have been there like this didn't need to happen at all the LAPD did this having full access to his personnel records and knowing he's just like a PR fucking landmine like nope put him up there

we're going to step right on this motherfucker And knowing, because I know that your repost to me, you might be like, oh, well, this wasn't a, like, how could they have known this wasn't a normal case? Because it was already the most famous case in the history of American law enforcement. Oh, J. Simpson, the trial starts. He's a massive celebrity. He's a huge celebrity. They knew this was going to be under an enormous amount of scrutiny, and they knew this guy's history. And it was, like, they had no excuse to make a decision that's stupid.

It's really fucking stupid. Impressive. So I want to read a quote from the author of that New York Times Review of Book. article quoting Peter Arenella, a professor of law at UCLA, critiquing the decision to have Furman on the stand. If a person creates a fantasy life once, they are going to do it again, Professor Aranella said. There are only two plausible explanations for the prosecutor's decision, Professor Aranella speculated. One is that the prosecution was overwhelmed by the defense team's blizzard of motions.

The other, he said, is that prosecutors had gotten away with using racist cops and other trials. What do we think it is? What do we think is the explanation here? I think there's a very good chance, Robert, that the LAPD has been using a lot of racist cops and trials and getting away with it. That's right. Because the LAPD is racist as fuck. And you know who else? Nope.

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anti-black racial slurs in the last decade. The recordings proved that that was a lie. Mark had to retire in shame from the LAPD in the wake of the trial. Obviously, OJ is acquitted, right? We all know that. The glove don't fit, you must acquit. The glad didn't fit. They had to acquit, right?

Sorry. He caught charges later on, but he did. He did. He did. He did. And Mark doesn't, obviously, Mark's not the only reason, you know, the glove doesn't get, gets OJ off. but he's part of why OJ gets off, you know. And because he's perjured himself on the stand,

he becomes the only person who actually gets convicted in the O.J. Simpson case, which is really funny to me. Is the detective who shows up at his house? Mark gets charged with perjury, and he pleads no contest in 1996. He receives a slap on the wrist before he and his family moved to the small town

of Sandpoint, Idaho, which at the time was fameless because a bunch of Nazis and far-right apocalypse weirdos had moved into the area. There's, like, articles that are including like the Aryan nations and like almost heaven and and bog rites and like his fucking militia weirdos and Mark Furman all in the same list of like reasons that Idaho's scary it's really funny that he's like it's like Mark Furman is listed alongside all of the Nazis as like reasons

that Idaho is a hub of the far right it's really funny at least they all have the same hobbies like you guys want to compare Nazi uniform collections there you go collecting swastikas Yeah. Want to see my concerning German political cartoons? Yeah. So Mark moves there, and there's articles about it, you know, and he, you know, is kind of settles into normal life. He's initially saying that I just want to be like a quiet, normal person. I found an article that describes me as having grown a mustache and started training to be an electrician's helper. I don't know why it specifies that he grew a mustache first, but it does. That was what my face was for the Netflix viewers. I was like, why is that a thing? So now that he's free, Mark's artistic bent reasserted itself. And with the fact that he's now getting to kind of indulge his creative side is helped by a fat advance from a publisher that wanted him to write a book on the trial.

Everyone involved with the O.J. Simpson trial got a book deal. If you were in any way involved and you wanted to get a bunch of money, you could write a book about the O.J. Simpson trial. They were handing those out like fucking hotcakes. And Mark's was a bestseller. It does very well. I think he makes a lot of money off of it. God damn you, Mark. Yeah.

In fact, it works well enough that he stops training to be an electrician, and he never winds up having to work a real job again. Instead, he settles into life and Sandpoint and continues writing. While Mark worked on his first book, the LAPD and performed another in-depth analysis of his claims in the tapes. They did find that many were provably untrue, per the L.A. time, summarizing a few of these. Furman and other officers tortured and beat four suspects faces to just mush after a

1978 officer involved shooting in East Los Angeles. Furman and his partner rammed a suspect's vehicle during a pursuit April 24th, 1986, and struck and kicked him after he was apprehended. Furman's partner named Tom tore up driver's licenses and used racist slurs. Police investigators identified the officer, but found the statements about him were unfounded. So again, all those are things that, like, he claims to have done in the tapes that they found that they said we proved he didn't do, right? Or we couldn't prove that he had had done, right? However, per that article, investigators found that the department's handling of some of those

incidents dating back 10 to 20 years does not hold up to the LAPD's current standards. In fact, investigators found the handling of some cases to be grossly deficient. So the LAPD says, we couldn't prove he did any of this. Also, our records keeping was really bad. And we, like, literally weren't taking notes at all about the complaints people made against officers. So who knows what happened is kind of what they say. What if we told you he was lying, he was also a violent psycho, and institutionally, we are incapable of doing our jobs. Yeah, couldn't have done anything.

And it's very interesting, too, because, like, if you read the news articles from the time, a lot of them are like, well, it turns out the ferment tapes were all lies. The LEPD looked into it and they were able to show it was all untrue. And that's not really what the report says. Some things were untrue, but a lot of things were like, well, we can't prove it because our records are shitty. And that's not the same as showing it didn't happen. We threw all the complaints out. Yeah, that's very different, in fact.

We can't prove any of this happened because we made sure we couldn't. Yes, yeah. That said, other important claims made in the tapes were true. As I've already gone into, men against women was real and documented by the LAPD. harassment was also found to be just as widespread as Mark claimed, and multiple witnesses have reported seeing Mark Furman use racial slurs, just as he himself used them in the tapes. Mark's next book, published in 1998, was Murder in Greenwich. This covered a murder that we've discussed on this show in our RFK Jr. episodes, the 1975 Unsolved Murder of Martha Moxley. Now, Mark theorized that the killer

was Michael Skakel, and a lot of people had previously. Michael was the nephew with Ethel Kennedy and childhood friend of RFK Jr. And there'd long been suspicion on behalf of Michael's brother and then Michael, but no one is ever able to prove anything. In the early 1990s, the Skakel family hired a PI firm to look into the risk to Michael and his brother Thomas, both publicly suspected of the crime. Per an article onoxygen.com, and I'll talk about why I'm using oxygen as a source in a little bit. The agency's highly confidential report was leaked to the press in 1995,

and it revealed that both Michael and Tommy had lied to Greenwich Police to, during their initial interviews 20 years earlier. One of the few people who has seen the report is former Los Angeles police detective and writer Mark Furman, the author of Murder in Grinich, who killed Martha Moxley. So I included oxygen, not because it's a good source because it shows how Mark's involvement in the case

is used and reported on by them. He's like, he's the only one who's seen this secret report, you know, that he's become credible to these like reactionary, like, paranoid conservative sources kind of now in this point out. It's interesting. It becomes a true crime guy. He's perfect for it.

Yeah. And no reason to explain why he's a former LAPD detective. Yeah, former. And RFK Jr. for himself, because he writes an article about Mark's book. And he blames writer Dominic Dunn for bringing firm an end of the matter. Dunn had been accusing the Skakel family of covering up the crime and trying to get the brothers prosecuted for years. Right. And it's kind of responsible for keeping suspicion on the Skakel brothers alive in the media during this time.

And so he reaches out to Mark Furman and furnishes him with, like, documents he's gathered during his own investigations and is like, I need you to like make this publicized because you're famous now. And despite Mark's perjury conviction after his book's success and due to the regret in the wake of OJ's acquittal, Mark had a lot of credibility in some circles, more than you'd expect. And he was seen by too many conservatives as a wronged truth teller and good cop. So Mark puts out this book that Dunn has basically paid him to write arguing that Michael Skakel did this murder, and it does build a lot of support for that belief. In an article for the Atlantic in 2003, RFK Jr. would later claim, on July 10th, 1988, one month after its publication, Connecticut authorities convened a one-man grand jury consisting of Judge George Tim. The state's attorney Jonathan Benedict took over the Moxley case and began a multimillion-dollar effort to convict Michael

Skagel, right? That's how RFK Jr. looks at it. That's not unfair. The question is whether or not Michael was guilty, right? If you believe Michael's guilty, then it's not bad that Mark did this. If Michael's innocent, then he destroyed an innocent man's life, right? Now, in 2002, Michael was convicted of the murder of Martha Moxley. In that same year, Mark's book was adapted for a TV movie, and Mark Furman was played by Christopher Maloney. This may seem like a redemption arc for Mark, but it turns out the prosecution of Michael Skakel was dog shit, and it was later overturned. Michael spends like 10 years in prison, but he gets out because he's found it was bad. They didn't do a good job prosecuting him.

Mark's going to go to his grave insisting Michael was guilty. I don't actually know who's guilty of this crime. So whether or not this goes in the bastard column depends on what you believe about Martha Moxley's murder. That said, I don't think Mark knows or cares who really did it. He writes in his book on her murder. In the intro, he's like, I was interested in Martha's murder because of, quote, money, power, celebrity, deceit and corruption. Basically like, oh, because this is a famous family involved in this murder, I thought it was

cool and sexy. And like a lady died. Like a girl died. And they came to me to get publicity. Like, come on, dude. Like, if you really think this guy murdered her, sure, absolutely, do the right thing. But like, don't just write that, oh, it's a sexy, try. A girl got murdered, man.

Come on. It's just like true crime shit. Like, he missed out on the wave of podcasts. Yes, yes. He would have made a lot of. And he does actually kind of make it. He makes it into a little bit of that way. Oh, God damn it.

So Mark keeps writing over the next few years. He publishes a mix of books, a lot of, like, serial killer books. He publish an ex-bizet of Oklahoma's death row. He's actually anti-death row, I think, kind of. He does publish a book on the death of Terry Shivo, a brain-dead coma patient who was taken off of life support after a math. This is a huge culture war moment, right? This poor woman is in a coma, brain-dead. Because he believes she was murdered.

What? He thinks this is murder. Yes, a lot of people do. He's that kind of guy. In 2006, he puts out a book about the JFK assassination that honestly had nothing interesting to say. And in 2009, he hilariously wrote a book titled The Murder Business, How the Media Turns Crime into Entertainment and subverts justice. That's you, Mark. You're the media.

That's just an autobiography, Mark. Yeah. My favorite part of his JFK book is how he came to the conclusion is that JFK's head just did that. Yeah, that's right. He was never shot. His head just did that. It runs in the Kennedy family. That's why RFK's face is so red all the time.

He's fighting back the natural urge for the Kennedy's head to explode. That's right. I mean, well, it's wrong because it was Bernie Montgomery Sanders. But we'll continue to move right past that. Agreed to disagree. Mark spends the aughts and teens as a forensic and crime. scene expert for Fox News. He also hosts a radio show and a TV history show on the Fox Nation streaming platform.

I don't think it still exists. It was like Fox is answered in Netflix and the Oats. And Mark has like a show where he goes through famous crimes and talks about them as the great detective who got OJ acquitted. Of course he ended up on Fox. He was destined for that job. He was. And he becomes an activist in his old age, you know, even though he actually in the early

2000s is permanently barred from ever being a law enforcement officer in California again, he becomes an advocate for police chokeholds because they keep people safe, you know, the chokeholds are important. It's a critical tool for safety. Yeah, for other people to die on. Yeah, a hill for other people to die on. Yeah, yeah. He repeatedly denied the relevance of chokeholds in investigations to deaths in police custody,

and I found a good example of this in a 2016 raw story article. Quote, while examining the history, that led up to the OJ Simpson case, ESPN's 30 for 30 documentary series, OJ, Made in America, recalled how the 1991 beating of Rodney King opened the nation's eyes to the LAPD's treatment of the black community. But Furman, whose racist language is often blamed for derailing the case against Simpson, argued that King's beating could have been prevented if the chokehold procedure had not been banned in the early 1980s. If they could have choked him, you know, that whole Rodney King beating wouldn't have been a problem. If only they would have gotten to choke him,

they had to beat him because they couldn't choke him. See, if they simply didn't ban chokeholds, like six dudes wouldn't have to beat an unresisting person. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I wouldn't have stabbed him if you'd let me shoot him, you know? Exactly, man. And it's perhaps ironic, given his love of chokeholds, that Mark Furman's end would come at the hands of throat cancer, which took him out of this world at age 74, not a moment too soon, like a couple of days ago. And that's the Mark Furman's story. Like a couple of weeks ago by the time you hear this, but...

What a guy. You know, I kind of didn't expect to come out onto the side of cancer on this one. But you're I'm wearing my tumor jersey, you know? Big foam fingers saying cancer number one. Yeah, that's the fucked up thing about cancer is, you know, especially when it comes for you or people you care about, it's this like relentless nightmare monster. But the other flip side of it is that it's the thing that guarantees no dictator or

Fox News personality stays around forever. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the mortality version of Al Capone getting caught for tax cheating. Right, right. Eventually you get the tumors. Eventually it'll get you. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, at least he's dead. At least he's dead. He's not on the Fox Street. He's dead like his streaming platform. Oh, man. Joe, you want to plug your plugables at the end here? Yeah. So I am the host of the Lions at by Donkeys podcast.

We're a military history podcast. We talk about all eras of history. We try to make things funny and interesting. I'm also the author of the book, The Highlands Burn. You can get it wherever you get your books. It's military gunpowder fantasy. So if you like World War I technology and magic, there's a book for you now. Excellent.

All right, everybody. Well, that's going to be it for us here at Behind the Bastards. And that's going to be us for it at Here podcast. I don't know why I'm doing the ephasia thing. Anyway, we're done. Go home. Be gone. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more from Coolzone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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