Behind the Bastards - Part Two: Radovan Karadžić: The Genocidal Dictator Who Became a New-Age Guru

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

We conclude the harrowing story of Radovan Karadžić with his war crimes and third act as an energy healer.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Also media. And we're back. This is part two of Behind the Bastards on Radavan Karajik. And I know what everyone's been asking, at least everyone watching on the Netflix, since the first episode, probably on the subreddit who's been going crazy over like, Robert's in a new room. Why is Robert in a new room? And like, guys, look, it's nothing crazy.

I'm not on the run from anywhere, right? Obviously, I haven't committed a series of horrible crimes like Jamie that I've had to go into hiding over. Robert. I'm just in a different room. This is, okay. Yes, Jamie? You're deflecting. You're deflecting.

And now, and what happens when you deflect and accuse me of your crimes is that I don't hear the end of it for, I think this might be. For half a decade. Decade. Not a week goes by that there isn't some neckbeard side-eyeing me in the grocery store. Because that ass thing, yeah. And I love each and every one of them. And I'm so nice. I'm so sorry.

Oh, man. I think I weirdly got it the worst in Pittsburgh somehow. Yeah, that makes sense, actually. I got a lot of Pittsburgh fans. A lot of people standing up for the show in Pittsburgh. The Inzers love it. The Yinzers were really shaking in their boots when I came around. Look, where, you know, so where's your secret room at?

It's underneath the Denver airport. Yeah. Yeah. It's underneath, yeah. I bought, actually own the Denver airport now. Power bills are eating me alive. Yeah. It was a lot cheaper than you'd expect. Yeah. Love your horse. Love the horse statue. Thank you. Yeah, I do. That's what really sold me on it too, actually. Yeah.

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We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Wanu. We're two best friends. years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived at all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health.

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In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author, Patra Mathers, and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members. to let them know they had died by suicide. Dear honies, this is goodbye. By the time you get this letter, both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind?

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He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal Season 6 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We've been talking about Radovan Karajik, who at this point in the story, is a psychiatrist who has been slightly disgraced for his criminal activity. may be informed on his friends for the regime. And, yeah, is eyeing the coming dissolution of Yugoslavia and being like, how can I make this work for me, right? It is interesting that he ends, he ends part one, basically just as kind of like a white collar criminal.

He's starting to get some ideas. Shitty dad. Yeah. Yeah. He's like flopped at a couple things. It's, I'm curious, he's a Fed, but many such white-collar criminals. Yeah. But, yeah.

If you had to guess what political party in our system, a guy like this who, like, believe some weird things about, like, natural healing and, like, magic and has committed a series of white-collar crimes and maybe informed on people for the government, if you wanted to guess what party in, like, the U.S., he would join, right, to start a white-collar crimes. Right? To start his political career. What would you guess? Oh, gosh. There's, I mean, there's a strong whiff of upper middle class centrist to that kind of behavior. Not a centrist. Not a, well, I know, well, yeah, he's a dictator.

What's the, I don't know. What party would like a, is he like a libertarian kind of guy? No, no. I'm getting like maha vibes. He joins the green party. There's an actual green party. Like, it is the green party in Yugoslop. that he joins. And it's kind of the same as our Green Party, as far as I can tell. And that it's all the people who are into like weird woo bullshit, right? Like, they love trees and not taking medicine that works.

Like, those are the two big uniting factors of the Green Party, both here and over there. Knowing that he loves trees is kind of the one sincere thing I feel like I truly know about this man. He was pissed about those oaks. And you know what? I think he was right. Yeah. And he would have. have been a Jill Stein voter.

So I don't know why having a nutty green party is endemic to democracy, but as soon as Yugoslavia starts to get the slightest bit of democracy, they're like, well, we got to have a party for the cooks, right? We got to have our crank party. They got to go somewhere. They got to go somewhere. And it's going to be a fucking green party. So he joins the green party at first.

Okay. Now, as historian Robert Donia explains in late 1980s, before communism fell, U.S. Slavians began experimenting with political parties. And this quote represented more of an artistic performance than a practical party. Because again, you don't really have democracy yet. But people are allowed to play act it. And it is kind of play acting at this point. They're sort of in the same way that like kids play with guns before they're old enough to join the army.

Right. Like they're playing with politics before they get to have their first elections in Yugoslavia a little bit. Right. But he's getting, I mean, he's not super young at this point. Right. Like, I mean, he's had a couple careers. Yeah. Yeah.

He's had a full career, pretty much, and done some crimes. And I was like, Eddie's served time. Yeah, he's done some time. There's a really depressing, like, one of those, like, memes in there where it's, like, it's never too late. It's never too late. You could be a dictator. Julius Caesar was just some dipshit, like, fucking side act in Roman politics until he was a middle-aged man. You know?

there are late bloomers out. What I'm saying is if you're 45 and you're thinking life has passed you by, you could still commit a genocide, my friend. I believe in you. I believe in you. Probably don't, but you could is what I'm saying. I'm not saying you should, but you could, you know. You could. I mean, look, did we think 10 years ago you would own the Denver airport? Certainly not. But here we are. Anyway, so yeah, the greens become lined at this holding place. early party politics in Yugoslavia for the counterculture. They were environmentalists first and foremost. One of the first activist campaigns Radovan participated in was they go out and they cover

the limbs of acacia trees with plastic bags as like a protest against plastics, right? It's a very 80s environmentalist campaign. That's kind of sweet. Sweet, yeah, yeah. Hearts are in the right place. Yeah, you're like, okay. Yeah. So far, seems pretty far from genocide. Radavan and his fellow greens were also bound together by an interest in what we might call folk medicine, right?

This includes a mix of like these traditional remedies that people like the Karajiks grew up with in the mountains, as well as weird spiritual beliefs about, like, nature that were pretty rooted in Serbian identity. But in a failing communist state, belief in what I prefer to call quack remedies was also political. So the people who believe in natural medicine and shit are also kind of dissidents to the communist regime, because that's very much not a communist sort of thing in this period of time, right? I want to quote from a 2009 New York Times article by Jack Hitt who writes, quote, in communist Yugoslavia, alternative medicine was suppressed, along with all anti-science superstitions, including in the eyes of the communists, the Serbian Orthodox Church. In Serbia, then, the politics of alternative medicine became a haven for right-wing anti-com. communists, an expression of ancient Balkan heritage, right? So the fact that they're into this stuff, I mean, we've seen today that there's a lot of interplay between our fascists and the alternative health movement, because if you're willing

to discard a big chunk of modernity, you might be willing to discard other parts of it, right? And it's interesting how, you know, for at least the people at the top of that movement, they'll always have access to modernity when it suits them. When they really want to, when they need a vaccine. How unfortunate that we can sort of like tell the story of American fascism, at least in the last 25 years through the lens of Gwyneth Paltrow. We don't love to think about it this way, but it could be done and it's on the table if you just have a loose three years to write that dissertation. And this also is, there's kind of a dark lesson in here for some of us on the left. Because I hear a lot of like people talking about what is to be done about Maha and like all of the millions that are going to die.

bullshit and like, well, this needs to be, the government needs to crack down more on this. And I, I agree, like, you shouldn't be able to market things as medicine that aren't medicine. But the story of Yugoslavia shows, even when you've got a really, like, very strong, like, state that is capable of repressing stuff like this, it doesn't last. As soon as the repression ends, people go right back to it, and it becomes stronger than it had been before. So it's, there's not an easy fix in terms of people believing nonsense. We've never really figured out how to make people believe in reality. You can't force it.

So I don't know what we're supposed to do, actually. No. So I wish I knew. How many more family members we have if we knew that answer? Yeah. But so in Yugoslavia, they're very against this. So this is counterculture, basically. Counterculture.

And it's specifically anti-communist counterculture, right? I see. Okay. Karajik begins bringing in, you know, while he's in the Green Party, He starts organizing with them first, but he also starts gathering with some of his friends, some of the people who hadn't, you know, cut bait with him after the 1968 protest movement. I guess the guys who didn't think he'd been an informer. And he starts gathering together some of these Serb nationalists to him, too.

And they start talking about, like, maybe the Green Party isn't going to take us all that much further. And the thing that binds these guys. How many times did we have that happened? The thing that kind of bind all of these. I don't think Jill's going to make it. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if this is. is going to do the trip. I don't know if this is going to work.

Yeah. The thing that kind of binds them all together is a rejection of Yugoslav nationalism and of communism. And these men are Serbian ethno-nationalists, or at least that's what they become over the course of the next several years. Maybe they don't fully start there, but they are going to get really pilled on that. I think as they all start hanging out and realizing the things they have in common, they get increasingly violent towards the idea of anyone else existing in the area, right? And increasingly, they start getting angry again, too, about World War II. They never stopped being angry about the genocide in World War II, right? But there's a lot of, we never paid the Muslims back.

We never paid the Croats back for what they did to us, right? That's also bubbling up here. So there's some ugly stuff being discussed. In that way, was it like the time that Tito was in power, did that sort of like stave back that sort of eventual processing? Okay, that makes sense. Okay. But again, it suppresses it. It doesn't get rid of it, right?

Yeah. And now it's like a generation removed from that as well. So. Yep. Yep. Okay. So in 1990, a group of Bosniak, these are, again, the Bosnian Muslim, center-right nationalists form the SDA or party of democratic action.

And this is a majority Muslim party, the SDA. But they're also a secular party, right? They get described a lot as like Islamists. They were not. are not because they're still around. They support a broadly secular state, and they support an independent Bosnia, right, that wants to get closer to NATO and to the EU, right?

That's sort of like what the SDA wants. Okay. So they're supportive of the right that Bosnia has to secede from Yugoslavia, and they are Muslim, but they're not looking to start like a strict, like, theocratic regime. Now, Radovan would not interpret things this way. He would later claim to his biographer, Jessica Stern, that the SDA were, quote, a bunch of Muslim extremists creating a militant Islamic party.

Again, it's not really true, right? There's some bits of that at the edges, but that's not really largely accurate. But it is true that a lot of Serb nationalists believe that. And for the same reason that a lot of people in Texas think that, like, Sharia law is right around the corner if they let there be a mosque in town, right? Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, there's a word for that. Yeah, there's a word for that. It's also true that, like, Radavon is working tirelessly at this point to convince them that the SDA are radical Islamists, right? And he is successful in creating what he called a sense of paranoia that allows him and his friends to leave the Greens and create a new political party, the SDS, which Jessica Stern describes as not only pro-Serb, but anti-Muslim and anti-Croat, right? So now we've got a party that's not just, you know, in favor of some of the, you know, these traditional Serb values, but we're specifically hate the Bosniaks and the Croats, right? How quickly is this happening? Because it's like this is, yeah. Because they're, I mean, part of what it is is they're looking at what's going to happen next when we all split up. And if you're a Serb who lives in Bosnia and you see these Bosniac Muslims creating a party that represents the majority of the people in the area and they're not Serb, you're like, well, they're going to oppress us, right? Maybe there'll be another genocide movie. Like, so we have to get ready to take power to stop them from fucking us over, right?

Right. There's a lot of that going on, a lot of that in the air, not just with the, and there's other ethnic groups. I'm very much simplifying the breakup of Yugoslavia. And this is where I get into an issue I have with Jessica's book, My War Criminal, beyond the title, because it is the source of more detail on Rodavans' family and personal life than anyone else has, right? But she also, by her own admission, falls for his spell several times.

and she does not push back on him enough. She doesn't really push back on him. Consider the title. Yeah. Yeah. She spends a lot of time talking to this guy. She doesn't push back on him describing the SDS as an Islamist party. And she also describes him as such writing,

Karajik did not seem to have a personal animus to Muslims prior to the war, even though by his admission, the party he formed in 1990 was framed in opposition to Muslims and Croats. It's also true that he was, as she points out, the godfather to the son of a celebrated Bosniak poet. And that pre-war, he had extensive personal connections to Muslims. But my read is that by the end of the 80s, he has decided the road to serve political power requires framing Muslims as the enemy and as the other, right? He just tries to keep this hidden at first.

And so he's not fully admitting to this, but it seems pretty clear to me. I feel like the follow-up questions kind of write themselves. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and I, there's a couple of issues I have with some of her framing. She, she does this, because there will be this claimant like, well, you know, Al-Qaeda got started. There were like early Al-Qaeda offshoots in, in Bosnia.

And the truth is that, like, well, some Mujahideen wound up fighting there because the things that are going to happen during this genocide. And people mistakenly believe the Mujahideen were the, it's the same thing people wrongly stayed about like Afghanistan, like, oh, you know, we actually really like funded and built al-Qaeda. And it's like, no, we built a different group of people who got overthrown by the Taliban and then invited Al-Qaeda in Bay. It's more complicated than that, right? It's not, it's not that. Right. Hey, everyone, Robert here. And at the risk of being accused of, like, being an apologist for stuff, I wanted to make sure I made it a little bit more of an extensive

note about some of the extremist Islamist groups that swarmed into Bosnia, because a number did, including al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda had like a regional franchise in Bosnia as a result of the war and the genocide. Although even some of these guys who are with al-Qaeda should not all be seen as like the same as the al-Qaeda that would come later. One influential person who's in Bosnia during this time fighting with the Musha Hadin is a dude named Eimandine. Dean was part of a Musha Hadin brigade that is accused of a number of pretty horrible war crimes after the battle for Vazuka. And after the war, he would have... was recruited by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and wound up going and being a part of Al Qaeda.

But then he got sort of pilled against al-Qaeda as a result of their justification of attacks that killed civilian bystanders. And he became a double agent for MI6 and spent years infiltrating al-Qaeda before he was exposed. So, you know, even when we're talking about some of these extremist figures who do come to Bosnia, they're all not, you can't all paint anyone who is like an extremist Islamist fighting against a genocide as the same as the same as the same as the, the different kind of extremist groups that came after because they're just not identical. But there are some people who are also like Islamist like Mujahideen types who wind up fighting in Bosnia because Muslims are being slaughtered, right? So there is, it's messy, but it's wrong to say that like, well, you know, the the Serbs were trying to stop Al Qaeda because they fucking weren't.

But that is how some people will like depict that today, right? Okay. So he does try to keep things hidden. His biases hidden initially in the summer of 1990 when he's organizing and still trying to reach political power, he tells the journalists, the Serbs and Muslims do not have conflicting interests, and he denies the existence of Islamic fundamentalism in Bosnia. But within his party, anti-Muslim rhetoric is already prevalent. And after Yugoslavia holds ill-fated elections in November of 1990 and the Bosniak start pushing for Bosnian independence, Karajik starts holding large public speeches warning about the coming Islamic threat.

Now, because we're talking about the Balkans, shit's a lot more complex than this. One thing that's happening is that over in Croatia, there's also a nationalist movement. The Serbian Democratic Party had been created in Croatia by a Serb nationalist who was also a psychiatrist named Roscovic. And he and Roscovich. I don't know. But there's two of them. And they form like identical parties, one in Bosnia and one in Croatia, right?

And Raskovich and Radovan Karajik are like friends and are very much like working together. These are movements that are allied, right? And the SDS, as it came to be known, was born under the guns of the thing that they're protesting in Croatia is this fascist-adjacent Croatian nationalist party has risen up in Croatia to advocate for Croatian independence. And they're using a lot of symbols and like, even like repeating some of the politics of the old fascist. Croatian state that had existed in World War II, which scares a lot of Serbs for reasons that are very understandable, right? Well, yeah, due to recent history. Yeah, that makes sense.

And so this is not just a matter of like, oh, Radavans inventing stuff to scare them. No, they live through a genocide. A lot of the survivors are still alive. And they see people organizing in Croatia who are trying to, like, using like the logos and shit of the old fascist party. And that provides a lot of fear and a lot of motivation to believe, oh, we may have to clear them out of all these areas, right? To defend ourselves, right? So there are real reasons to be afraid, and he is very much drumming up additional fear, right? You know, in what would always

have been any time a country is breaking apart and going to be dividing along ethnic lines, there's going to be a lot of fear of horrible ethnic. I don't know of any case where something like that's happened and a lot of people haven't died. Look at the partition of India, right, in Pakistan. You know, like it is always a pretty fucked up thing. shit like this goes down. So it's not weird and nobody, I don't want to, I don't want to act like the Serbs have no reason to be like on edge, right? There's a very good reason to be on edge.

Like one-ish generations removed from a quarter of the population being wiped out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's scary. I too would be on edge. Yeah. What is, what sounds at it's, maybe it's like me not understanding the region well enough, but it's just, it is fascinating. that I guess so.

But like, but that it ends up being this guy feels very like, you know, this is a role that was going to be taken by someone. And it ends up being him because it's like, it's more of like a circumstance that requires a bad actor like this. Yeah. And my read is that he knew someone like this is going to wind up existing. It just has to happen. It's inevitable.

It might as well be me because then I can make a buck off. Right. That's kind of what I think. psychiatrist. Right. Right. And Raskovic, the other psychiatrist, who's organizing the Serb Nationalist in Croatia, is a bit different, right? And his argument, because he has a real fear. He he's trying to stop, he would say, he was trying to stop ethno-nationalist violence. Because his belief was that the years of communist rule had just suppressed the trauma left over from the war, which I think is accurate. And he feared that if the state suddenly fell as it was about to,

there would be ethnic madness. That's the term he used. As Stern explains, the sudden release of these memories could lead Serbs to submit to the collective will of the mob and massive acts of revenge, Raskovich warned. Even a dangerous and genocidal campaign of vengeance against the Croats and Muslims, a tendency that could be monitored and controlled only by a skilled psychiatrist in touch with the Serb collective unconsciousness. So that's why he's like, we need a psychiatrist. I can stop the genocide.

He's doing the Homer Simpson thing where he's like, maybe if I'm part of the mob, I can lead it in positive directions. That is so weak. God, they must do. That's how you know, like, no one is in their right state of mind where they're like, yeah, the psychiatrist, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. He has no skills. He has no applicable skills.

Not an out of his school. And Raskovic is not going to succeed in using his psychiatrist powers to stop a genocide. As a spoiler, it's going to be another psychiatrist who helps cause the genocide. But you know who's never caused a genocide? that you can prove. They were declared innocent in court of all those killings. It's all I'm gonna say.

Okay, the sponsors of our podcast. I was volunteering until the court part, but I got scared. Yeah, look, did they have a couple of a couple of whistleblowers assassinated? Who hasn't? You know? Blueberries are gonna have shards.

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But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over. We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good france. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You broke me. You do not desert of happiness. I'm Andrea Gunning. On this season of betrayal, we meet Carl Bryant. Carl thought he was living a normal, drama-free life until the messages started. You will have hell to pay. For nine months, someone infiltrated every day. Every aspect of Carl's life threatening to ruin him.

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Listen to Betrayal Season 6 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like actor Stephen Root. I think for me to be any good or for any character act to be any good, you've got to put enough of yourself and your empathy for people in it. I'm a people watcher. You see that guy going down the drain, though. Yeah, I can use that. Open Igloo co-founder, Alia Mohammed.

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Hi, I'm Michael Imperioli. I want to tell you about my new podcast, Underground Zero. It's about what happened in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. We're looking at the opportunity of a life. time for us and the other families. While the world was mourning, five powerful New York families

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Yugoslavia by the late 80s during this period of declining communist state power, was it, we'll cover him in the future, Slobodan Milosevic. Right? That's the guy who winds up running things in Belgrade. And he's, you know, he's running all of Yugoslavia, right? He had been kind of a communist apparachnik. He's one of these like upper mid-level figures when the decline starts after Tito's death. And one of the things that he- He has some credentials. I think you're going to be like, he's in politics. He's just kind of this like therapist who thought like, why the hell not? Okay. And we're going to have to yada yada a lot of Milosevic. I'll cover him in the future. Please forgive the fact. that we're not going into detail here, but basically part of his, one thing he really hates is Milosevic does not like the 1974 Yugoslav constitution, which gives these individual republics a right to secede because he knows that Bosnia and Croatia at least are about to secede along with other places, and he's like, I don't want that, because I want to be in charge of Yugoslavia, right?

Milosevic represents his base of power are a bunch of conservative factions within the crumbling communist state, and he had been largely responsible for purging the institute. So first off, before he, when he starts being in power, he purges a lot of these communist institutions that had kept Tito's Yugoslavia functioning. Because he is one of these, like, guys who wants to be able to make more money and stuff. So we got to get rid of some of the state-supported shit. Oh, I mean, we can't, we can't really with that at all. Descating? Nope.

Longstanding effect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Descinating the parts of the state that, like, make people feel like they're the same thing. Yeah, maybe not a great move. Yeah. Kill the libraries and stuff.

Sure. Yeah. After 1980s. when Gorbachev and the USSR started opening things up, Nationalist in Yugoslavia get inspired. And that same year, Milosevic, who was, again, a middling communist apparachnik in 87, is sent to Kosovo because there's a bunch of Serb nationalist protests

that start up and things get pretty ugly. And he's sent to calm things down, like stop this, you know, uprising campaign. And he kind of does the opposite by turning himself into a mouthpiece for Serb grievances and funneling that into personal power, right? He declares himself protector of the Serbian nation and then embarks on a campaign to win power, which he does by 1989. So that's how he comes to be in charge of the state is by being like, I'll protect the Serbs. And I think part of what he's doing is Serbs are the most powerful group in the country more or less, at least within like the military. So if I declare myself protector of the Serbs, we can kind of crack down on these other nationalist movements and stop the Serbs from wanting to secede. And that will be how I maintain things, right? So that's kind of, I think, his idea. So it is so wild how hard it is to track his thinking.

And because people who's- It's complicated. Yeah. It is very complicated. And I know that that's also just like part and parcel to this story. But it's, I cannot, I cannot track this man to save my life. He's got a lot of fucking balls he's got to keep in the air, right? Because he's, he's both got, he's this protector of the Serbs,

right, and he's also an anti-nationalist. And so he has to describe everyone who isn't to serve as the bad kind of nationalist. He is backed by the old guard of the Yugoslavian army, right, which is heavily served, dominated, and also by the old communist hardliners. These are the people who think any, if Yugoslavia breaks up, my entire power base is held up in the state maintaining. So these are all the different kind of, sometimes conflicting interests that he's trying to balance in order to keep power for himself. Per the Institute for War and Peace reporting, quote, Milosevic sought to placate Orthodox communists and nationalists.

He promised continuity to the former, while the latter saw him as the brave and bellicose leader, who would eventually deliver something resembling a greater Serbia. But he was actually promising the impossible to both, yet they desperately wanted to believe him. Some saw him as a genuine communist, masked as a nationalist for tactical reasons. Others thought the situation was the other way around. So you're not alone and being like, where the fuck is this guy coming from?

Melosovic is trying to do a very complicated dance, you know? There's just a random soccer player being like, is that the guy that made us play bumblebees? Yeah. He's in charge. And he's doing a lot of, like, one of his big things, he's holding these rallies for truth, where footage of Serbs being victimized by Muslims or Croats are played to outraged crowds, right? That's like a thing that Melosovic, which is helping to drum up this, like, violent nationalist sentiment that's going to become eliminationist, right? Yeah.

In 1991, Slovenia and Croatia declared independence. Bosnia and Herzegovina follow in 1992. And throughout this period, Rodovan had become increasingly radical and militantly pro-Serb, and he's risen to command the SDS. He's not initially the leader of the party, but kind of by this point in time, the early 90s he is running things. And his success mirrors Milosevic's, right?

As political scientist Gerard Toll and Addis Moxik explained to Stern, quote, Karadzik was an effective public speaker with an effective makeup that allowed him to connect with rural Serb Mores and habits of thought. One of his friends, another poet named Mimidavitch, described Radovan's behavior as changing overnight. He starts carrying a pistol at all times, and he wants it to be visible, and he starts playing down. His backstory as a psychiatrist and a poet by remaking himself as his, like, militant leader who

is like, I'm the historically ordained leader of the Bosnian Serbs. Like I'm almost like our kind of fascist Christ figure come to redeem the Serb nation. That's how he starts talking in a lot of ways. He's literally, he's on like a fascist eras tour. This is like so, yeah. He's speed running a lot of it. Yeah. Now, almost as soon as Bosnia and Herzegovina have their referendum for independence,

Bosnian Serb militias, so they have this referendum and it becomes clear Bosnia is going to become independent. And the Bosni acts have the most powerful political bloc in the country. but the Serbs have more weapons, in part because the Yugoslav militaries giving a bunch of arms to these Bosnian Serb militias, who are being led by the SDS and under Radovan's control. And after this referendum, these militias seize land. They lead a bunch of assaults and they conquer most of Bosnia and Herzegovina, right? So they use the fact that they have the guns to take political power for themselves.

And they declare an independent state, the Republica Serbska. So you get, Bosnia has this. referendum for independence and they're like, okay, we'll be independent, but because we have the guns, we'll overthrow everyone else and we'll make it our state, the Republic of Serska, right? Sure. Yeah, so there's this independent now Serbian, like, controlled state, but that's still mostly Bosniak, right? And the SDS, because it had been the embryo around which the military and state formed,

Radavon Karadzik becomes the first head of the republic, right? So he is now the dictator of this, like, Serbian kind of militant republic that's taken over a bunch of Bosnia. I mean, it's, it's always bad. It's always bad to have a dictator. But this is, I just like, a dictator that has kind of an identity crisis every half decade or so. Just, you're not on steady ground with this guy. No, he could go anywhere, right?

Yeah. He's going to, like, pivot to become a jewelry maker in the middle of everything. That's a cool, that's a cool job, though. That's a fun. I'm a big fan of that pivot. I agree. Same. So immediately pre-war, the population of the area that becomes the republic had been about

44% Bosniak and 17% Croat and only about 33% Serbian. So you've got about a third of the populace are Serbs, but Serbs are the only people really represented under the government headed by Radavan. And this has all been done. The guy who's like endorsing all of this is Milosevic, right? He's very much in favor, and he's often guiding like what's happening here. And Radovan comes to see himself in almost mythic terms as a man brought forward to defend his people in their moment of need. And their main need is to commit genocide because you can't have this country just be a third Serbian.

And we're not going to get a bunch more Serbs to move here. So what we got to do is get rid of the people who aren't, right? That's who we're going to pump those numbers up. This is so fucking bleak, yeah. Yeah, it's very ugly. Psychiatrist, running for the American Journal of Psychiatric Law, analyzed the language that Radovan used in his speeches around this time. Quote,

Karajik's language bespeaks his grandiose sense of destiny, imbued with a collective sense of myth and sacrifice. Karajik speaks of being a servant of the people, and his language of myth merges with that of sacrifice. I am willing to sacrifice this generation if it means that future generations of Serbs will live better. Karajik rediscovered a mythical, primordial language, identifying with Petar Petrovich Negos, Montenegro's 19th century Prince Bishopette,

in which he revokes themes of blood soil and hallowed ground. Group therapist to his wounded nation, Karajik, was someone who, according to his wife, understands the depths of a person's soul, set himself to the task of healing the collective sorrow of the Serbian people. And he's going to heal it by getting revenge for the violence that was done against them, right? this is I mean this is all you know both obviously horrifying and also just feels so in step with what a dictator with an identity crisis would be he'd be like oh so I'm actually God and and it kind of harkens back to all of his his his father problems right like his yeah yeah the the mythic

storyteller so yeah he's just we never escape our parents fully yeah now Radavan's chief military leader, the guy who's going to be carrying out all of the things that he once done, is General Ratko Mladic. He just died recently a couple of weeks ago. He was prosecuted for war crimes after all this and literally just passed on the same week as Daliparton. And Ratko leads this army of the republics is about 100,000 men, Serbian army that he's able to use to consolidate power with tremendous brutality. And this write up by the BBC describes what happened next. A vicious war ensued in which Serbs besieged Sarajevo for 44 months, shelling Bosniak forces but also terrorizing the civilian population with a relentless bombardment and sniper fire.

Thousands of civilians died, many of them deliberately targeted. Bosnian Serb forces assisted by paramilitaries from Serbia proper also expelled hundreds of thousands of Bosniaks and Croats from their homes in a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing. Numerous atrocities were documented, including the widespread rape of Bosniac women and girls. so that their kids won't be, we'll have served blood, right? That's the idea behind that sort of thing, right? Yeah. So this is, I mean, it's hard to exaggerate how bad things are in Sarajevo.

When I was there in like 2015, and I went to, I was in Ukraine, which was actually at war. I was in like part, like a city under siege in Ukraine. And then I go to Sarajevo. And decades after the war ends, Sarajevo still looked about as bad as the places that were actively being shelled. Like in turn, because there's, and obviously it's,

it's much more built up, but they kept a lot of the bullet holes as like, and a lot of the shell holes and stuff as a memorial, right? So you, that you can, you can tell by how much is left, how bad things would have been at the end of the fighting.

Like, I can't exaggerate how fucked Sarajevo gets as a result of all this. It is a nightmare. As close as I could remember, I mean, this is like, this is the period of, we're kids when this is happening.

Yeah. Right. I was, I was like, this is, I actually do remember, do you remember, do you remember, uh, Slata's diary? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.

Yeah. I remember there was like an old copy of Zlaughta's diary that I read. I probably too young, but I remember seeing it at the library and reading it and that being sort of, kind of my only education on, uh, on, on the Balkan area at all. And certainly on Sarajevo growing up entirely was, was that book. Yeah. And it is, and there's all sorts of horrible shit.

It's just come out that they were basically, some of the Serb forces were taking money to lead, like, people from South Africa and shit on sniper tours where you would just get to kill people, like shoot random Muslims and, you know, whoever, in the streets of Sarajevo with sniper rifles. There, Sarajevo's in like a big bowl, depression. Like, you've got, like, mountain valleys and stuff around it. So because the cities in the low part and the heights surround it, if you can just get a bunch of tanks and artillery in the heights around the city, you can just shoot into

Sarajevo endlessly. And that's what they do for like four years. Like it's just awful. Radaban had written a poem about Sarajevo drowning in blood in 1971. And he sees this poem and the war he helped start as preordained. And he's almost like, well, these visions came to me because it was what I was going to need to do. My own artistic visions are proof that me and Ratko are doing the right thing by just massacring people in this city. What is it with these fucking people?

and their college age art projects being seen as a prophecy. Never get over this shit. Almost without exception. It is like, it is remarkable. I mean, I'll say this, Jamie. In my first novel, I did nuke the city of Dallas. And if I ever gain political power, I might. I'm not going to say I wouldn't because I had to live there for 20-something years.

I mean, as is your right. As is my right. Every Texan is the right to nuke the high five. I mean, I guess my version of this, I came up with the idea for Santa University when I was 19, which I do see as kind of a grand prophecy. If you become a fascist dictator, that's what we'll have. I mean, and there are some pretty, some pretty violent ideas inside of Santa University. I mean, it's right there. It's mostly that.

It's a lot of killing. Yeah. Yeah, a Santa story. So the resultant violence would kill more than 100,000 people, and Radovan personally helped to plan mass deportations and mass murders. During the years-long siege of Sarajevo, Mladic, acting under Radovan's orders, flattened much of the city with artillery and tank fire. Snipers massacred women and children and men trying to gather food or simply walking down

the street. The Serb army murdered more than 10,000 people there. Here's how the CBC described the behavior of the army of Radov, of en Mladic. Quote, The army of Mladic created a fight in Bosnia was a model of ruthlessness.

In some of the most horrific examples, prisoners suffocated in the heat after being forced to eat salt and denied water. They were starved and raped in prison camps, were made to jump off a bridge and shot and were gunned down at night by the hundreds after being driven out of detention with chemical gas. So this is just a war-crimey army.

There is not any getting around that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like truly that impossible to avoid growing up. And but still, I mean, it is just, I mean, and we can talk about, you know, three different genocides that are treated much the same in, in Western media, basically, that are like all but ignored, probably so that we don't know what a genocide looks like. Yeah.

When our government is participating in one. One of the really frustrating things, too, about this genocide is that because it does get stopped, The NATO and the UN like take action and the perpetrators are punished. And then that part's good that they go after the perpetrators. And it's good that it is eventually stopped. One of the most like iconic pieces of graffiti from Sarajevo is the UN logo with United Nothing underneath it. Because as the victims will say, yeah, but it took you, you took your sweet fucking time. Right?

Yeah. Like it's always when things are at an absolutely desperate point that intervention actually happens. Finally, after 44 months. Thanks. Right. Right. Glad you got your shit together after my family was killed. So while Radavan was not a soldier or a military leader directly, he was directly involved

in operating a string of concentration camps in which thousands of people were tortured and killed. Per a study in the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatric Law, quote, disturbing suggestions have emerged that Karajig deliberately used his psychiatric training to create military and political policies that would create fear, terror, and extensive post-traumatic stress disorder in civilian populations. Allegations have been made of Karajik's direct personal complicity in acts of violence and torture, including claims that Karajik had participated in and witnessed tortures at various Bosnian-Serb-run concentration camps.

So he's like just showing up at the camps to kind of make sure they're doing the torturing, right? Like, he wants it to be the maximum amount of fucking up people's brains. This is a psychiatrist. He feels he really knows that to fuck up someone's head. I like cool yeah he's he really is fully committing to this to this pivot to being one of history's greatest monsters it's he really is incredible right guys yeah yeah and the war culminates in the slaughter of bosniaks in a town called srebrenica this is like just an awful act of genocide I'm gonna read another quote from that CBC article here describing some of what happens Miladich had a a cameraman filmed the blitz on the encircled enclave of Srebrenica, haranguing Dutch UN peacekeepers who misguidedly accepted his solemn word that the inhabitants would be safe in his

hands. Surbrinza supposedly had safe area status meant to protect civilians from ethnic cleansing. We give this town to the Serb people as a gift, Lottich said to the camera, claiming the victory as revenge against Muslim Turks, who had once held the area as part of the Ottoman Empire. When NATO tried in 1995 to reign in his forces with the threat of limited air strikes, his troops defiantly seized UN peacekeepers as human shields, chaining them to likely targets. So again, the UN, super effective. Really do their job there. Yeah, yeah, no no notes for the UN.

They're always there right in the nick of time. Right in the nick of too late. As a result of all of this, more than 8,000 Bosniak men and boys are rounded up and executed by Miladich's men. Another 20,000. I went to Srebrenica and interviewed Saras of the genocide. one of the guys who was like a boy when it happened was literally, he was at the bottom of a pile of the corpses of his family mirrors and had to like crawl out after it got dark to escape.

Like there's a lot of stories like that. This is the worst single genocidal act of the war. Very soon after, Mladic and Radovan seemed to have known that they had gone too far. Mladic's men were ordered to bulldoze the dead into mass graves and then dig them up and rebury them elsewhere to hide the evidence. NATO and UN pressure was, eventually, far too late, enough to force Rodavon and Miladich to step down in November of 1996. In 95, like the end of 95, there's a ceasefire that gets negotiated in Dayton, Ohio.

These are the Dayton Accords. And they hold on to power a little bit after that, but they've both been indicted for war crimes, and so they have to step down. Radavan would later claim that U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrook promised him immunity from prosecution if he stepped down. Holbrook has always denied this. maybe Holbrook lied. I don't think it's bad to actually lie to a genocidal dictator about not prosecuting him to get him to leave power.

Like if Holbrook did that, that actually makes him cooler. Okay. Sure. I don't have an issue with that. First things you could do in that situation, sure. Sure. For the first roughly two years after he stepped down, Rodavon lived openly in the former capital of the Republic and continued something like a normal life,

now living as a celebrity among far-right serves. nationalists. But it soon became clear that the UN eventually meant business and Serb war criminals were going to be the first and almost the only genocide perpetrators held to account for their crimes since Nuremberg. Yeah. Before and since. Yeah. You will get, every now and then you'll get because there will be something about like some African warlord who's getting prosecuted for war crimes. And they'll be like, oh, so they prosecute like the non-white war criminals. It's like, no, they did go after a lot of Serbs. Like that was kind of the first case of it for the ICC. And, you know, they do eventually get their shit together.

And so this means that Radovan's going to have to go into hiding if he doesn't want to face the music. And since Radovan considered himself blameless and innocent of any war crimes, he certainly did not want to go into trial. However, he's also not the kind of guy who looks like he would be able to hide very well. And so he's going to show you a picture of him during the war. This is him next to Rodko Lottich. I don't know how to describe his hair other than SuperSayan. Like he has like a white shock of straight up like I don't how do you like what is happening? What is happening with that man's hair?

He looks like fucking Goku. I love it. He does like an anime villain. This. It's amazing. Of all the genocide perpetrators, he has the best hair. This sucks. Because he looks so good.

This sucks, man. You don't want him to be a bad guy looking that cool. You don't want that to be the bad guy. You don't want someone with hair that falls quite like that to be a monster. This is like, yeah, this is just like overwhelming. Yeah, there's a lot to cope with here. Yes. So the fact that Radovan was able to escape into hiding was a direct result of NATO and U.S. incompetence.

More than 64,000 UN peacekeeper or NATO peacekeepers were stationed in the Republic after the war, and everyone knew where Rodovan was for like two years. Per an article by The Guardian, quote, there was no political will to risk either peacekeepers or the peace itself on arrest operations. And so they don't do anything when he's living openly. That's just like, that's what NATO does. Who can't have peace if we punish these guys for genocide? They're like, yeah. They're like Wiley Coyote in these situations without fail. They're just like, well, I don't know.

Where to go? It is the same mistake liberals and centristes always make, which is like once you've had these like monster genocide fascists and you get them caged up, it's like, well, we can't like punish too many people because that won't lead to peace. And it's like, no, no, you actually have to hold people to accountable for doing awful things very quickly. And how many years has, how many years has it been since like the, you know, Netanyahu was declared a war criminal and he's just going on.

did what it should have done. They don't have an army, right? But yeah, it's, I'll blame everyone, but they at least did indict him, right? They did. They did. Yeah. So by the time, by the, where's he at? Where's he at? And it's still in power. Yeah. By the time that shit changes in 97 and they decide it's actually worth going after these people, Radavon is long gone. He has gone into hiding, despite his incredible hair. By 2000, Bill Clinton is on his way out. And one of the things slick will he wants is he wants the capture of this legendary war criminal to be part of his legacy, right? He wants that as like a foreign policy coup. So in kind of his last year in office, he sets, he creates a new task force at the NSC to launch the largest and most expensive manhunt in history

up to that point. Up until we go after bin Laden. This is the biggest. Yeah. And a lot of the same people who go after bin Laden, they, they learn the ropes of the job going after Radaban. And as a spoiler, they're bad at getting him. So I don't know if we should have used the same guys to go after bin Laden because they actually suck at both jobs. So the hunt for Radavun Lottich was the largest deployment of special operations forces anywhere in the world prior to 9-11. Delta Force, Seale Team 6, and the British SAS were involved as are a number of CIA units,

MI6, the DIA. They're like every fucking intelligence agency and special forces unit you can imagine. are hunting after this man who looks like he's got he's got a fucking shock of silver white hair standing up and they accomplish fuck all they cannot find him he's a fucking ghost the guy in charge of this effort is david petrae who is going to be a future director of the CIA he's eventually disgraced after he sleeps with his the reporter writing a book about him wow i didn't think i didn't see i didn't see him coming. Didn't see Petraeus coming. Ah, you never do. He was so excited by all the cool toys, because this is his first real time getting to work closely with special forces, that he forces

his way he, like demands to be allowed to attend some night raids with Delta Force. Their commander described him as a kid in a candy store. And again, he sucks at this job. Per the guardian. And he'll keep sucking. Wait till you hear how bad he sucks at his job, though. Oh, great. Per the Guardian. Petraeus and his men would make unannounced visits in the middle of the night to Liliana Karajic, the fugitive's wife with the aim of rattling her with a show of bravado about his imminent capture,

in the hope she would rush to warn him and give away his location. Petraeus coded his Eddie Murphy routine after Murphy's role as convict turned cop in the movie 24 hours. However, bulk in reality did not work like Hollywood. Liliana was followed wherever she went and was only one of the first targets of surveillance drones.

A new toy U.S. Special Forces were trying out in Boston, but she led them on a wild goose chase. The manhunters used every trick they could think of, scanning the remote villages along the Bosnia-Montenegro border for signs of unusual activity, internet log-ons in the middle of the night, TV satellite dishes and otherwise poor settlements, newspaper subscriptions.

The NSA was persuaded to waive normal practice and allow intercept intelligence to be shared, unfiltered and without delay, with the operational units tracking Karajik in Bosnia. In one of the more bizarre episodes of the chase, Delta Force soldiers lay in wait for his convoy on a mountain road, one of them dressed in a guerrilla suit, which had been flown in from the U.S. the previous day. The idea was that Karajik's bodyguards, known as the Preventiva, would be dumbfounded and slow down their vehicle long enough for the Delta Force ambushers to fire a specially designed concussion grenade at the car doors to stun the passengers.

The daring scheme would have gone. The guerrilla suit! This is like a... What? Who pitched that? We're going to paralyze him with random humor. What is a random comedy? The family guy cutaway gag.

Like, what? This is like a fucking Scooby-Doo plan. You thought that was going to work, huh? Who are they putting in the guerrilla suit? And of course, all of this is pointless. Like, the whole tip-off that a caravan was coming through this area was probably deliberately misleading information, like, fed to them in order to get them to waste their time. Because Karajik and his supporters love the fact that they are able to, they're just dunking

on the U.S. and the entire Western worlds, like, surveillance and special forces apparatus, unable to find this one man with crazy hair, his psychiatrist. They have, like, five backup guerrillas. They're like, don't worry, sir, we don't scare him with the first gorilla we've got. And again, this is similar to what happens with bin Laden, where he, like, goes into hiding and, like, the entire U.S. intelligence and special forces apparatus is hunting him in, like, Torabora. And we later realized, like, no, he just, like, went right to Pakistan.

He, like, left. he left the country. Yeah, he was watching DVDs for like eight years. He was watching Looney Tunes. And the thing is, Karajik didn't like disappear, really. He like shaves his head because his hair is distinctive. And he grows a long crazy Santa beard. But as soon as he can, he just goes to Serbia.

He leaves Bosnia. And I guess they hadn't thought of that as a possibility that the Serb might go to Serbia. Like they're like, well, he's got to be in Montenegro still. Like, no, he just went to Belgrade. I mean, yeah, he spends some time. He's in rural villages and stuff for a while, but he just like crossed the border. And while they're hunting him, he still is writing and publishing poetry specifically to dunk on them. In fact, during the height of Delta Force trying to find this man, he publishes a book of poetry just to humiliate U.S. Special Forces.

One chapter is titled, I can look for myself. I mean, he's a monster, but you got to respect that. I mean, he's absolutely unquestionably a monster. And like, the U.S. is so fucking embarrassed. The U.S. is so embarrassing. What an embarrassing place to be from. Glad we spent all that money on Delta Force. Couldn't catch the poet.

God. And it's just, and it's because the pedophile president is like, maybe, maybe if we put on a gorilla suit, people will forget. Yeah, maybe a gorilla suit. David Petraeus, get your brilliant mind down there. Oh, my God. He also publishes a novel that sells out and does really well while he's hiding. What is what?

It's amazing. The trail goes cold, and after 9-11, most of the world moves on from obsessing over Serb war criminals as the U.S. takes the lessons it had learned failing to capture Radavan and applies them towards failing to capture Osama bin Laden. Meanwhile, Radavan was busy reinventing himself in Serbia. Prior to giving up power, his intelligence guys had furnished him with the real identity of a real dude to use his fake identity. Like the real guy is named Dragan Dobbik,

and that's the name he takes, Dragan Dobik. And the real dragon is a rural peasant who just like doesn't ever leave the small village he lives in. So like, well, no one's going to notice his identity being used by what else. Renting out his identity? Yeah, yeah. He's just, I don't think he knows.

Yeah. Because they find this guy and he's like, I don't know, man. I'm like a fucking peasant. I don't interact with the government. What are he talking about? He's like, wow, that's crazy. Wild. So now living under the name, Dragan Dobik, Radavon reinvents himself, right, and starts living openly in Belgrade as an energy healer.

He reinvents himself as a new rage guru and is like very prominent. No. No. Yeah. No. His last chapter is incredible, Jamie. You're not ready for this. No.

You cannot pivot after committing a genocide. He does. He does. He has a whole post-Genocide career. Wow. As kind of a sex wizard. I hate this. It's amazing stuff. So Radovan...

Just wait, Jamie. You're not... I can't hype this up enough, honestly. So, in order to train up in the ways of Wu, in 2005, he shows up on the doorstep of Mina who is a well-known spiritual healer and self-proclaimed... clairvoyant. She, despite the fact that she is a clairvoyant, she does not recognize him as the massively famous war criminal who's just shaved his head.

Oh, no, that's all part of the plan. It's all part of the plan. On meeting him, she describes him as a long-bearded man with white hair who, quote, looked like a monk who had done something wrong with a nun. I guess that's one way to describe. That is a great description. Sure. Why not?

Sure. So Radovan as dragon claimed to be a former. therapist who just returned from New York City after divorcing his wife. And she'd kept his credentials and diploma so he didn't have them to show. But trust him, he had them. Like, he has diplomas and stuff. He just can't furnish them because of his bitch-ax wife, right? And Meenick trusts him.

Meenick's like, sure, that makes sense, right? She sounds awful, man. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Come on in. Given that Minnick and everyone in the world of alternative healing in Belgrade were the standard kinds of cranks you'd expect, his utter lack of credentials and background were not remarked on by anyone in a significant manner.

Per the Guardian, Dabek was eager to learn the ways of a Balkan seer, including the use of a Vesak, a pendulum that is supposed to identify disturbances in the energy field around sick or troubled patients. This is kind of like dowsing, right? Dabick soon acquired his own Vesak, and his career as a mystic healer blossomed. He adopted the unserved middle name of David and used it increasingly as a professional moniker. He also set up a website called Sigh Help, Innsk.

Energy, which advertised the David Well-being program. He just renamed himself David? Well, Minnick suggests the name David, right? And I'll tell you why. Because, and also Minnick lets Dabick stay in his apartment and, like, couch surf while he's training? This

genocide guy. This thing is always the... I'm like, where's Luigi? Can we get Luigi in here? Like, how is this guy alive, much less rebranding as David? Like, this is... This is ridiculous.

Great question. So from Stern's book, he explained that Minnick explained that King David was a seer and the first bioenergetics practitioner. When he was very old, he used to recover his vital energy by laying down along with young girls, all naked. But it was completely clear and innocent, he said. He's back to the bumblebee shit. This, like, in this, in the context of his life, it makes the whole, like, the whole genocidal dictator thing seem like, just a weird detour. It's a sideline.

Yeah, it is for him a detour. And Minnick is also a fucking amazing crank because he's telling Stern like, yeah, I told him to name himself to King David because he would lie down with naked girls to recharge his energy, but it was totally innocent. And then she writes, he told me I would find this story in the Psalms,

but I was unable to find it. That's because it's not in there. It's not in there, Jessica. That's just nonsense. Jessica. Jessica. Jessica. Over the years, she's nutseying out.

Yeah. Over the years, Karajik became a noted Riki practitioner and consulted in a private fertility clinic. At one point, Russia Today, before he's found out, Russia Today films a documentary about his miraculous healings at the office of a doctor that he worked at for, right? So he's like going to this doctor's office to do energy healings on actual sick people, and he like heals a sick kid. And he's an adult.

Well, he's a wanted, one of those wanted men in the world. No, he doesn't. No one catches it. Yes. No one notices this. And the only thing any of his fellow energy healers noted as odd about their new friend was that Dragon slash Radabun always had at least five cell phones on him that rang constantly. And he would never take the calls. He would just like, I'll call you back.

And like put them up and they're like, that's weird. Must just love cell phones. He's like moving like. He's moving like Robert Durst. Alive. Like, this is crazy. It's so funny.

It's so funny. Over the years, except for the genocide. It's really funny, though. What he does with the second act? Let's not forget the genocide. He just shaves his head, grows a beard.

How many... The Santa beard. Yeah, to literally cosplay as Santa and call yourself David. Yeah. And then other than not act as guilty as you fucking want. The most sketchy man alive. It doesn't seem like you're even really making much of an effort.

Yeah. Yeah, he's barely hiding. Over the years, Radovan expanded his offerings to include acupuncture, homeopathy, and something he repeatedly refers to but never explains called quantum medicine. He also sold magical amulets. He partners up at one point with a... That's crazy. That's crazy.

As somebody who gets acupuncture and loves it, my acupuncture doctor had to do so much schooling. No way to know. She did so much schooling. How much blood is on her hands, Sophie? That's what I want to know. How much blood is on her hands? She had to do so much schooling and has so many student loans. No.

Yeah. Schooling. She was leading a militia, Sophie. Wake up. No. No, David is a great acupuncturist. No, he isn't. Better known for his other work.

He also partnered up with a sex therapist named Savo Bochabuk. With whom he works on several different. I'm scared. I'm scared. It's not going where you think. Does everyone have their behind the bastards bingo cards out? Because we just hit mysterious sex therapist. It's like.

I'm scared. Oh my God. Like white collar criminal. political leader, medical crank, genocide committer, and fake doctor of every imaginable kind. Failed art. Incredible.

Like, just, yeah. He pitched a no hitter in terms of bastard's ball. In case you're doing the bingo and you didn't get in your space. Robert, no. Okay, now everybody's got to read. Yeah. Oh, and we, and you, you hit Grand Rapids today too. Wow.

We did. We already mentioned Grand Rapids. This is an all-timer already. Wow. Oh my God. I got to tell you about this sex therapist because he works with Sava Bolshevik on several inventions and theories to cure sexual dysfunction. And I found a New York Times article by a reporter who interviewed Savik after Radovon was caught because a couple of, a lot of these healers get interviewed not just by Jessica Stern. And they're like, did you not notice like anything?

And they never did. But this article is incredible because he's talking to all these cranks who were like partners. with a genocide guy and didn't know it. Here's one quote from that when he's talking about the sex therapist. He, the sex therapist, explained that his current work is a study of his nation's penises. Before he would discuss Dabik, he insisted on walking me and my interpreter through a scrapbook with some 2,000 Polaroid close-ups of middle-aged, mainly Serbian penises. And look, we all have a book of middle-aged Serbian men's penises somewhere in the house.

But you don't take it out immediately as soon as a journalist shows up. You make them earn it a little bit, right? I don't. I don't. I think maybe the only thing we can say for him here is he has a fantastic eye for credulous dipshits. He really does. He's amazing at that. Can spot him from a mile away.

He's like, oh, the guy with 2,000 pictures of cock for his house. Middle-aged dick. Wow. And every line in that New York Times article is funnier than the other, because immediately after that is, is Bojavik said he had recently proved that Serbian men can have active sex until the age of 102 and Serbian women until 84. Sir. What? Okay.

Sir. Sexist, sir. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Sorry that. Sorry that nobody wanted to see your old bandit. Yeah.

You know who else can continue having sex until the age of 102? The products and services. You, if you buy the products advertised on this podcast. Allegedly. The long loading times. The glitchy video calls. That's your house asking for better internet. Switch to Bell Pure Fiber, Canada's most reliable internet awarded by Open Signal from $75 a month.

Price guaranteed for two years on a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for more details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. My name is Josie Duffy Rice. I'm a journalist who covers the criminal legal system. And over my career, I've heard a count after account of prosecutorial misconduct, story after story of injustice. But I've never heard a story quite like this. The more I kept reading that stuff, I thought, man, there's more red flags that just kept coming up over and over.

We'll hypnotize him to strengthen that memory. So he went into a good trance. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Listen to Examine the Backfire Effect on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would change if you stopped letting money stress run your life, sis? I'm Mandy Money, host of Brown Ambition, The Podcast.

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It's playing out in real life, not just on the phone. Every piece of evidence pointed to one. man. But every piece of evidence was a lie. He was not going to stop unless we stopped him. Listen to Betrayal Season 6 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin this season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers like actor Stephen Root. I think for me to be any good or for any character actor to be any good, you've got to put enough of of yourself and your empathy for people in it.

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and then suppress the memory. A new podcast series, Faultline Haditha, tells the story the United States government wants to keep buried. How can you not know? There were women and children in there. You're going to tell us here that you don't know what happened that day? Based on thousands of pages of previously classified documents and over 100 hours of secretly filmed video,

the truth about one of the most infamous crimes in Marine Corps history can finally be told. If you've got five players and one of them is given, guilty of murder at least, and you offer immunity to the other four, you better be right about the fifth. Because if you're not, then you've just given immunity to your killer. Listen to Faultline Haditha on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back, and I have to continue reading from that amazing New York Times article, talking about

this sex therapist who partnered with Rodovan. He seemed especially interested in treating strong-blooded women who cannot live without sex. For them, he has invented a special special device called an applicator which can bring on a gentle orgasm and which can also be marketed. He insisted on telling me despite my best efforts to stop him. Yeah. And this journalist is like, I don't want to know about this. I want to talk about the genocide guys like, no, no, no, we are going through the sex stuff first. He said, you can't really understand the orgasm torture machine if you don't look at all 2,000 penises first. You need to read the text.

Dragon slash Radovan worked with this guy to cure impotent men by putting his hands on their junk, right? Because he has healing hands. To continue from that article. And this is the sex therapist again. He put his hands close to my cheeks and I felt a terrible energy of warmth, Bolshevik said. Dabik's warm hands gave Bolshevik an idea. He put some sluggish sperm on a microscope slide. I was holding the glass slide and he was putting his hands above and below,

Bojavik said. He kept them there for some time and then I put the slide under the, microscope and I was nicely surprised to see the sperm really moving faster. So, Bojavik and Davik successfully repeat this slide experiment ten times. I had the intention of developing a method in which Davit could heal our patients, holding one hand under the testicles and one on the top of the testicles, Bojavik explained. That's this, that's what Radivin's doing. He's cupping old men's balls to use his magical powers to make their sperm life here.

Amazing. he's my favorite i'm sorry not of jett i not the genocide stuff but that's because when i heard he was doing sex therapy work i was like oh he must have committed some horrible sex crimes no he's just cupping old men's balls to shoot energy into their sperm i'm i like i think i kind of fully left my body at sluggish just disassociate i think i kind of went somewhere else for a while i don't know what i think i Back then, when you said sluggish sperm with like absolute like certainty of like, what do you mean? It's some of the funniest shit I've read in my life. That New York Times article should have won a Pulitzer.

Like it should win every Pulitzer every year. Keep giving it to that journalist. I couldn't be happier. Like what kind of damages do you even ask for having reported that? Yeah. Yeah. Like just give them a year. salary as an apology for making him talk to these people. My goodness. That's like it. Yeah.

Yeah. He's just sort of, it seems like he's been, like he's receiving some sort of, I mean, obviously he should not be loose, but it does feel like in some, in some way, he's serving a life sentence in this like fever dream. Maybe. Yeah. I think he loves this. I think he's way happier doing this than being.

Being a dictator. Yeah, I wish he had found his passion for cupping old men's balls if he were younger. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you can do that. He lived in New York City. Come on. Yeah.

If he hadn't done a genocide, he would have just been on my podcast behind the guys who cup old men's balls for strange reasons. That's behind a paywall, yeah. Launching in December, everybody. Yeah. So one of the things I find most interesting about this story is how easy it was for the most wanted man in all of Europe. to hide in a fairly high-profile way, working closely with a whole community of people who would have seen him on TV

constantly during the war years. And that New York Times investigation has a great theory as to why none of these weird energy healer freaks recognize the genocide guy in their midst. Quote, the world of alternative medicine turns out to be a brilliant refuge

for a man with something to hide. Every so-called healer I met in Belgrade seemed curious about just one thing, his own healing method, expressing the mildest interest in Vissac technique or energy fields would set off hours of one-way conversation. Jansik, the man who mastered energy fields, remember Dabik as someone who was always asking after John Sik's work, but rarely spoke about himself.

He would never sit down and eat with us, John Sik recalled. And so the theory is that none of them noticed this guy was the most famous dude in the country because they're all narcissist fucking woo weirdos who are only interested in their own grifts. And as long as he never talked about himself, they didn't ask. I was going to say, like, I mean, it is. like he just had to find kind of a dozen credulous weirdos and you can kind of move to oh man I've I've really the perfect place to hide I it's genius really as a as a former

woo dabbler it's just it's it's it's it's a bad look it's a bad look it's a bad look when when the when the when the Santa looking motherfucker cupping your balls turns out to be A genocide architect. I'll say this, Jamie. If Hitler had escaped the war and lived in like peace in another country for like another 20 or 30 years and had decent health,

which he wouldn't have. He was very sick by the end of the war anyway. But if he had, he would have done something like this. I think he would have become some sort of weird energy healer or some shit. I mean, I think that genuinely, again, not to bring it back to fucking W,

but you know, if you survey, If you outlive your war crimes, it seems like you kind of go to this kind of creepy retirement, this creepy little side quest. I think the one ethical use I could find for generative AI would be if we could identify the people who have like the genocide dictator thing. And you could create like a fake like army of fans that are just bots to encourage their side career so they never get into politics. Like we might really avoid some horrors. Incredible. Can we just make like a shell Juilliard for mid...

Yeah, fake Juilliard for me, people who might do genocide? Yeah, for mid-genocide. Yeah. Might help. I don't know. All right. That's it.

Yeah. He also, I should note, held hid very well even outside the confines of the energy healing subculture. Per the Guardian, quote, he also started visiting his local bar, the Luda Cuka,

madhouse, a smoke-filled, rough-edged place that appealed to a shifting crowd of impoverished war veterans, Bosnian Serbs and Montenegrins. It served country wine, plum brandy, and pungent undeluded nationalism. On the wood-paneled walls were pictures of the Serb modern nationalist pantheon, with pride of place reserved for Radha van Karajik.

On at least one occasion, he was persuaded to pick up a gusla, the single-stringed fiddle of the region, and perform an epic Serb ballad under a framed portrait of himself at the height of his power, yet no one recognized him. Amazing. Amazing. I mean, yes, but also you could say, you could say, you could say zero cultural impact. Yeah.

Cultural impact. Sure. Sure. You could say that. Or you could say we all owe the writers of Superman an apology because maybe Clark Kent could really successfully hide just by putting on glasses. Maybe it is that simple. It doesn't take. Most people are not paying attention.

As I was saying, you really do kind of forget, you know, how foolish a person can be. We spend 90% of our days asleep pretty much, right? Like everyone's zooming through on autopilot. So Radaban slash Dragon was having a fine time as an energy healer in general Kuk. But in mid-2007... Yeah, oh, there's more. In mid-2007, one of his doctor friends introduced him to executives at Cali Vita, which, despite its name and California-centric branding,

is a Connecticut-based MLM that sells health supplements. He became their first sales representative in Belgrade and was first first. a time quite so excited. He gets into the MLM. Like every bastard thing this guy did. It's amazing. He became a Lulu Lemming girl. Yeah. It's incredible stuff.

This guy. He did it all. He did it all. Unfortunately, that includes genocide, but he did it all. He's on his second post-genocide pivoted. Yeah. On the evening of, and he would have pivoted further, I'm sure. What do they sell?

What do they sell? It's like supplement. They're selling some of course. It's like a lot of stock photos of California people and pills. Yeah. On the evening of July 18th, 2008, Drogendabic was forced to go on the run again. Pro-Western reformers had started winning elections in Serbia and the people who protected him are not going to be in power anymore or at least not enough of them. And they warn him like, we can't keep hiding you in the capital.

So, and these people were unaware that he had actually already been tracked down. And what finally blows his spot is not the fact that he's not the fact that he's living a public life as a famous healer. It's that his younger brother, Luca, kills a lady with his car and, like, calls his brother on a trailer phone and is like, hey, I need advice. And people are like, why is the brother of the guy who did this genocide, calling this random energy healer who looks kind of like the guy who did the genocide, right? That's sort of how it comes together.

David? Yeah. So as he attempted to flee, he was taken into custody and brought to the hake. and I'm not going to cover the blow by blow of the trial. But it brought a ton of evidence to light that made Rodovan's guilt even clearer. He and his top general, Ratko Mladic, were placed on trial for charges of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. And the resultant trial took years, but on March 24, 2016, he was convicted of all of these things and sentenced to 40 years in prison. He is incarcerated today at a UK prison in the Isle of White.

And that's the Rodavon Karajik's story. It's finally over. My goodness. An amazing amount of ground, though. It's what a life. The, the, the, the, the day no mont of that story was so. It's insane. I was not expecting.

It had no right. Yeah. The penises of it all. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I did not expect 2000 Middle Age Serb penises to, to take a role in the part two of this episode. That does sound like one of those, like, Reddit, what would you do prompts?

Yeah. I don't know, folks, if you have 2,000 pictures of middle-aged Serbian men's penises, send them to our email, you know? I'll take a work. Yeah, not all men who have an album those 2000 pictures of Serbian penises. Please don't do that to Jamie. Other of them are really good to me. That's the sequel to a Serbian film, 2,000 pictures of Serbian penises.

Please, please, no dick pics. We've suffered enough. Oh, man. Yeah, especially that Times reporter, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah, to your local energy either. I still have questions about Jessica. Like, this is just all.

I mean, I am thrilled. I am thrilled. I do remember him, his sentencing. Yeah. But I really feel like we kind of culturally skipped over the, but not just the genocide, but the MLM and the 2000 Serbian people. No, it's not in, no one who is involved in the U.S. defense and intelligence wants to admit that the Navy SEALs, Delta Force, the CIA, MI6, fucking, every agency that existed in the West got outsmarted by a guy who's like primary pivot after getting done with a genocide was cupping old men's balls to make their sperm livelier. Incredible.

It's pretty embarrassing. It's literally like a Count Olaf gray disguise. is pretty ridiculous. I, yeah. And that however many like millions, maybe billions of dollars that went into that search, the best they could come up with was like a 2001 guerrillas. How could we have known he left the country? How could we have known?

The Serb went to Serbia. Who could have guessed? Great work, Petraeus. Good. Best of luck in the future, you fucking dip shit. God. Well. Funny stuff.

Good today. You know, glad he's rotting. You know, and, and. Yeah. But Jesus Christ. My goodness. My goodness. Jamie, tell the audience here about, about your new upcoming novel, The Tower.

It's so hard to plug at the end of this fucking show. That's why it had you plug it up top, maybe. It's true. You know, and listeners, let's keep in mind, he did go, he did get sentenced in the Hague. Truman, Truman's, Truman's, the back of the back. and was like, on to Jamie talking about book, must listen. I mean, she's a great reader that are sweet Truman. You can pre-order my first novel, The Tower.

It comes out in June, but I'm going to beg you to pre-order it anyways. And it is about an architect who falls in love with her own blueprint and tries for years to, I guess I'll reveal an additional detail I didn't in the previous episode. She's trying to get financing from this very wealthy New England family to have the building built. And the family's name is the Van Solivance, which I think is very funny. It is. So you can pre-order it now and come see the Bexel cast on tour in October. Buy it twice, you know.

And also, you know, listeners, before we go, I just want you to spend a little bit of time each day. directing some mental energy to the hope that when Andrew Tate and his brother go to prison in the UK, they're sent to the Isle of White and wind up getting their balls cupped by Radavon Karadzic. That's my dream for the Tate's. It's that he manages to convince them he can hear their sperm. That is manifestation for evil. I'm working on it, baby. I want it to happen.

Who told Robert about the secret? This sucks. Manifest, baby. We can make this happen. This is doable. This is doable. All right. All right.

All right. Let's wrap it up. Bye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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