Behind the Bastards - Part Two: The Dennis the Menace Creator was a Shockingly Bad Man

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Robert and Randy discuss Hank's unorthodox parenting methods, how he tried to get laid at Disneyland, and some very uncomfortable racism.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the 1980s and 90s, New York City needed a tough cop like Detective Louis Scarcella. Putting bad guys away, there's no feeling like it in the world. He was the guy who made sure the worst killers were brought to justice. That's one version. This guy is a piece of s***. Derek Hamilton was put away for murder by Detective Scarcella. In prison, Derrick turned himself into the best jailhouse lawyer of his generation. The Lord was my girlfriend. This is my only way to freedom.

Derrick and other convicted murderers started a law firm behind bars. We never knew we had the same cop in the case. Scarcella. We gotta show that he's a corrupt cop. They can go f*** themselves. I'm Steve Fishman. And I'm Dax Devlin Ross. And this is The Burden. Listen to new episodes of The Burden on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free

with exclusive bonus content, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. Hey, this is Dan. And this is Reed Isbell. And we're the hosts of the podcast, God's Country. Check out our latest episode with our good old buddy, Luke Combs. Yeah, I know you saw him on Grammys

performing Fast Car with Tracy Chapman. But did you know he once ran the go-karts at Asheville Fun Depot? You got seven minutes out there, absolutely no bumping. Definitely listen to this episode. If you like liver mush, gross. If it was called breakfast delight,

you'd be like, that sounds pretty cool. I would try that. Listen to God's Country on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Everyone in our country has a voice. It's something that says not just where you come from, but who you are. Welcome to NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection of podcasts and a celebration

of the hosts in journalism who've always spoken truth to power. Our voices are as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as the Black experience, and stories should never be about us without us. Find NPR Black Stories, Black Truths on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Call Zone Media Wow! Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where I, Robert Evans, was just bearing my soul to my guest, the cartoonist, Randy Mulholland, about the fact that I miss drawing cartoons.

I just brought up the great Aesop rock song Rings, which is about realizing that drawing is a thing you used to do and being kind of quietly devastated by that. I miss it. I thought you were going to call me a grifter at first. I was like, I mean, I guess I'm a cartoonist. So it's the thing. Like I always knew I wanted to write and I had initially wanted to do that as like a cartoonist, because I was kind of like coming into my adolescence,

the same age that like Hank was when he's watching these really Disney Disney cartoons, I was reading like first generation web comics, right? Like Sluggy Freelance and shit like that, that the first people who were able to make a living cartooning on the internet, and I was always like, well, that seems like the way to do it. What a lush, lavish life these webcomic artists live. Oh, one day, that'll be me.

I did have someone once send me an angry email, I know you are so comfortable in your mansion. I was living in a one room apartment. Your ivory tower of cartoons. I was living in a one room apartment at the time. It like, I was like, I guess, cool. Yeah, there's this Nazi cartoon and it's problematic. And it's, I'll give you one guess as to like

who the they is, but like, the text underneath this very problematic art is like, if you wanna know who rules you, look at who you're not allowed to criticize. And I wanna replace the racial caricatures with just like a guy drawing a cartoon, like the secret masters of the world, web comic artists. They rule us all!

Gabe and Tycho, the sign of happiness. Yeah, the Penny Arcade guys. Jerry's a sweet guy though, I will say that. He's always been very sweet. I have not met any of them. I did see Will Wheaton once at Penny Arcade Expo, and I nearly took my vengeance on him

for what he did to that poor space captain in that fourth season episode of Star Trek, The Next Generation. Unforgivable, unforgivable, Will. First time I ever met Will Wheaton, I told him, because he and I were the same age, I was like, you know, when we were kids, I was always so jealous of you,

because you were on the Starship Enterprise. And he's like, look, however cool you think it was, it was way cooler. And he walked off, I was like, damn it, dude. Yeah, man, he got to know Riker. He got to watch that man reinvent sitting down on chairs. Never been done the same since. It really has not.

That was the, I think that's really what taught us bisexuals. That was the Manhattan project for sitting down. So we're back in the story of Hank Ketchum. When we last left off, his wife Alice had left him. He blames this on her temperamental Irish nature, which he also blames her alcoholism on. And this is not fair, but she is an alcoholic, right? Now, I don't think she's an alcoholic because she's Irish.

I think she's an alcoholic because it was the 50s and who wasn't, right? Like a health nut ended every day with a full pint glass of straight bourbon. That was the way people lived. Like martinis and barbiturate-fueled diet pills were a way of life. You have called where this is going because she is unfortunately mixing barbiturates and alcohol, which listeners don't do.

This has been a long digression from the fact that Hank Ketchum is going to blame every problem that his wife has on the fact that she's Irish. Now look, she is an alcoholic. I am sure that was a contributing factor to why their marriage didn't work. But I also suspect a contributing factor to her alcoholism was the fact that her husband did not want her or their child around, and preferred spending time with a fake family that he had drawn to spending time with his actual family. I can see how that might make a problem worse, right?

I'm not inside this marriage. It couldn't have helped, right? Not really. Now there are some other possible clues as to what went wrong in this marriage from some of Hank's early cartoons. From that Seattle Times article, quote, Dennis persistently tries to drive a wedge

between Henry and Alice by exposing their flirtations. He narks out dad on the beach to a furious Alice. Boy, did we meet a pretty girl. Her name was Sally Holt. I forget her phone number. Likewise, he deals poor Henry another blow to his masculinity in front of Henry's male friend. If you're so handy, how come mom had the man next door come fix the leg on the card

table? God damn. And we get a couple things from this here. For one thing, he is kind of hinting at this like constant suspicion of infidelity that may have been a factor in their relationship. But also, to make this more devastating, again, Dennis is a kid and aware of the cartoon that's coming out. His parents break up and his dad starts drawing cartoons about he and his wife fighting where

the cause of the fighting is Dennis. Now that could fuck with your head a little as a kid right? That's so fucked up. That could do some, when we talk about the ethics of like basic stuff on your life you know that's generally okay but maybe if you're a parent don't blame the cartoon version of your son for the problems of your marriage that might hurt them actually. That could do some real damage. Everyone gets the newspaper. Yes.

Every kid reads the comics. Yeah. And there's no way his friends didn't know his dad drew this comic. No, no, this is like, honestly, there's really not much like, like Mr. Beast is probably like, in terms of like his level of popularity,

the closest we have to somebody like Hank Ketchum in terms of the actual penetration of a single piece of children's media in the time, right? Like it's so popular. And yeah, this would be like a pretty fucked up thing to deal with as a kid, in addition to like dealing with the fact that your parents are splitting up and things are about to get a lot worse because Alice leaving brings an immediate threat to Hank Ketchum's life, which is that since they're split up now, he's going to wind up with partial custody, at least of his son.

Partial custody means you might have to spend time parenting that kid. That is not a thing Hank wants to do. Right? No father in the 50s is into that idea. Absolutely not. As soon as the two split up, like that same year, Hank sends 12-year-old Dennis to live at a private boarding school. And here's how Hank describes the reasoning behind this decision. He suffered severe learning disabilities that were not being properly addressed by the family.

His mother, too caught up in luncheons, teas, and bouts with demon rum, couldn't focus seriously on much of anything. His well-intentioned father was buried in creative work and wasn't spending time with his small family. And like, it's kind of like you try to give yourself a little like, well, I also didn't do enough, but like, yeah, his mom is all going out to lunch all the time and his dad is well-intentioned, but he's like too busy drawing cartoons to raise his child. And what's most messed up here, I have never seen any real supposition as to what Dennis's learning disabilities may have been. He's not diagnosed with anything as far as I can tell.

Given the state of things in that period of time, I think there's a very good chance he didn't have a learning disability. He was like acting out and having trouble in school because his home life was really difficult. And when things got tough, his dad sends him away. Right? Like that makes more sense to me than any kind of disability you might have had. He was an upset child. He was an upset child. His world was shit. Yeah. Divorce was so taboo in the 50s and there's no way like other kids didn't know. I'm sure

his life was kind of hellish. He's dealing with that, right? Like the fact that this is a taboo thing, it's so unprecedented seeming to him. And also again, his mom is an alcoholic and that's also a thing to across the bear as a child, right? He is the victim in this situation. Absolutely. And Dennis's, we have the actual Dennis's recollections

of this period of his childhood. And he would later tell People Magazine, I didn't know what was going on except that I felt dad wanted me out of the way, which is like a devastating way to feel as a child. No child should ever feel that way. Especially if you are your dad's meal ticket. He's getting rich off of a pretend version of you and he won't even raise you. Like that's real, real bad. So this childhood nightmare is exacerbated by the fact that Dennis the Menace, the cartoon,

is hugely popular among kids of his age group. And whenever they found out that he was the original Dennis, he became the source of unwanted attention. Years later, Hank would cop to some of this and the effect that it had on his son telling the Washington Post, these things happen, which they don't. They never happened to another kid, Hank. No one else has ever gone through what your son did. Let's look at Bill Keene and his kids

who he based the family circus off of. Glenn and Gil Keene became cartoonists. He was very proud of them. They apparently had a really good life. So there's an option here. Yes, yes. You can base things on your life. Maybe not this way. No. Yeah. And even honestly, if he'd done everything the same with the comic, but just kept his son and raised him, it probably would have been fine. But that's not what he's gonna do. Hank would add, this was even worse because his name was used.

He was brought in unwillingly and unknowingly and it confused him. And like, yeah, Hank, but I think what confused him more was you just not being there, cause you're his dad. So Alice, again, this is, I hinted at this earlier, this is the 50s.

She is an alcoholic and like every person who drinks too much in the 50s, she's also taking too many barbiturates, right? This is a great way to get really fucked up. And it's a great way to die suddenly, which unfortunately she does a few months after he starts boarding school. The same year his parents break up, the same year he sent away to boarding school, his mom dies driving past Mount Shasta from an interaction of alcohol and barbiturates. This is unfathomably devastating for any child, right?

In the best case scenario, your mom dying suddenly is like the worst moment of your childhood, obviously, right? Yeah. You know, like it's horrible, let alone like the fact that he is dealing with this and the breakup of his parents and the fact that he has been sent to live alone at like a boarding school, right? And that his dad blames it on the fact that he has a bad brain, right?

I'm not saying that's what a learning disability is, but that's very much how people talk about this. I'm sure that in private, that was not how his father termed it. Yeah. In the 50s. Not in the 50s. He's not being woke about this, right? And Hank is, he's not an expert on tact and child rearing. So when, again, there's no internet, right?

There's phone service and stuff, but like as a kid, you're not connected to the world. Dennis is locked away at this school, his mom dies, and his dad decides not to tell him. What the fuck? He doesn't let him know. And Hank in his autobiography is like, I just couldn't bring myself to break the news

over the phone, right? Which like, well, you're rich, travel there. Go tell, I get that. Like, yeah, maybe you want to tell him in person, go be with your boy. But he doesn't want to do that either. So instead of like going to see his son and telling him or calling him and telling him

He waits until the boy's mother is buried and then lets him know hey by the way your mom's dead. Sorry, bro What if I shit? That's such a devastating Traumatizing way to handle that like not only are you alone not only is your mom and we're split up, but like I'm not even gonna tell you until she's buried and my god That is so cruel. That's that's child abuse. That is very abusive Yeah, man. That's like we just talked about Steve Jobs being a bad dad

I don't think he would have done this like he would have let the kid know that mom was dead. That's such a- Steve Jobs was a shit dad, but come on. Jesus. And like this, the fact that he's not able to go to the funeral, Dennis would later say fucks him up, right? Quote, mom had always been there when I needed her.

I would have dealt with losing her a lot better had I been able to attend her funeral. Obviously, even in the 50s, most parents don't need that explained to them. Of course, the kids should be at the funeral They should have the option at least. Oh my god, like I can't even imagine how like When you're that age like 12 like for normal 12 or 13 year old life is hard your body is changing Nothing makes sense. Kids are mean as shit Like, for a normal 12 or 13 year old life is hard, your body's changing, nothing makes sense.

Kids are mean as shit. You don't understand your parents, but your parents are getting divorced when that's unusual. You're sent across the country to a boarding school. You know your mom's an alcoholic, you're probably doing worse, and it's not going great. And then one day, oh by the way, your mom is in the ground. You didn't get to say goodbye Look kid I got good news and bad news bad news mom's dead good news You don't got to go shopping for a suit funerals already done. I took care of that for you, buddy

Have a good time being abandoned No more awkward holidays Now yeah, you're your mom's sober God only marginally worse than what he actually did. So for his part, Hank is savvy enough in his autobiography to know that describing the story the way it actually happened would sound bad. So he explains her death in his autobiography in this rather baffling passage. The little girl from Malden, that's his wife, tried valiantly to cope. She was a splendid wife and a loving mother, but the world was spinning too quickly for her.

She had nothing to hold her steady except the relief she found in barbiturates and alcohol. My patience and knowledge of the disease were woefully lacking, and tragically, she succumbed shortly after her 40th birthday. Cool, that poetry doesn't really help. were woefully lacking and tragically, she succumbed shortly after her 40th birthday. Cool, that poetry doesn't really help. No, first off, he's nice in this paragraph to her. She was a great wife and mother, but like it comes one paragraph after he says

she wasn't there for her son because of the demon rum and all of those luncheons. So I don't really believe that he felt this way about her. And then the instant, like the next thing that happens in this book after he says that she dies tragically is not him talking about the conversations he has with his son, his attempts to cope with grief himself, his attempts to help his son deal with this.

It is a sub-chapter called Blind Rebound. Again, and this is literally about a rebound relationship He has he goes from my wife died and not to here's what happened to my son Here's how I talked him anything. He doesn't say anything about his kid at all about the kid They share that is the inspiration for the comic that is why he has an autobiography He goes to talking about a lady. He wanted to fuck This story starts at Disneyland where he's like he's at Disneyland and he sees a young man

who's alone and it makes him sad and it reminds him that it's nice to be with somebody, right? It was a sad sight and it reminded me how much I depend on being with someone. This must be a reaction to all the crummy rooming houses and lonely weekends and holidays I spent feeling sorry for myself. No question about it, I'd make a lousy monk.

I would like to dig him up. He's so bad. And just punch him. What the fuck. It's such an evil moon man way of talking about like your wife dying and abandoning your son. I was like, yeah, you know, I completely gave up on our responsibilities as a father. But then at Disney World, I realized having sex is nice.

There is no empathy in this man. Such a vile person. This is Scott Adams level of like, I don't see beyond my own day. Yeah. Yeah. At least, you know, I don't know if this is true, but well, no, Scott, I'm not going to say at least with Scott Adams. I will say nothing for you, Scott. So look, I wanna be clear here. I don't think he had a responsibility to stay in that marriage. I don't think anybody has a responsibility to stay in an unhappy marriage,

whether or not they have a kid. But I do think that if the mother of your child dies, your job at that point, even if you're split up, is to focus more on that kid, right? Because they've lost their mother and that's what parents should do. Your job is not to abandon them so you can go get laid at Disney World.

Like, that is not the acceptable thing to do. Going to Disneyland to get some strange, it's kinda weird. Bizarre, bizarre. Robert, I really am gonna revisit my take on titling for this thing. You can do the history's greatest monster. The history's greatest monster for the Dennis the Menace guy?

Yeah, you can do that. I'm okay with it. This guy sucks. You know who else, Sophie, is history's greatest monster? Oh, is it capitalism? Our sponsors. Oh yeah, cool. Yeah, because they made you listen to this.

In the 1980s and 90s, New York City needed a tough cop like Detective Louis Scarcella. Putting bad guys away. There's no feeling like it in the world. He was the guy who made sure the worst killers were brought to justice. That's one version. This guy is a piece of sh... Derek Hamilton was put away from murder by Detective Scarcella. In prison, Derek turned himself

into the best jailhouse lawyer of his generation. And the law was my girlfriend. This is my only way to freedom. Derek and other convicted murderers started a law firm by the. And the law was my girlfriend. This is my only way to freedom. Derrick and other convicted murderers started a law firm behind bars. We never knew we had the same cop in the case. Scarcella.

We got to show that he's a corrupt cop. They can go f*** themselves. I'm C. Fishman. And I'm Dax Devlin Ross. And this is The Burden. Listen to new episodes of The Burden on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive bonus content,

subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. Hey, this is Dan and this is Reed Isbell, also known as the Brothers Hunt. Subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcast. Chapman. So that was really cool man and I feel like we just connected on that call and then she agreed to do it a few Weeks later she agreed to do it But did you know he once ran the go-karts at Asheville Fun Depot? You got seven minutes out there Absolutely no bumping keep your hands in. Wait we can't bump? But why is there a bumper on the car? No you can bump if you want to. You said we can't bump. Right if you do I'm gonna kick you off. And you should also definitely listen to this episode if you like liver mush, gross, or if you hate liver mush. There's a town in North Carolina that has a liver mush festival.

It's that popular. Why have we not been to that? I don't know. That sounds like a- Why am I not headlining it? Listen to God's Country on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Everyone in our country has a voice. It's something that says not just where you come from, but who you are. Welcome to NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection of podcasts and a

celebration of the hosts in journalism who've always spoken truth to power. Our voices are as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as the Black experience, and stories should never be about us without us. Find NPR Black Stories, Black Truths on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, everybody, we're back, and we're just having a great time. Those were good ads and services.

I felt contented. Dennis is enduring one of the most traumatic childhood experiences I can conceive of. And while he's doing this alone at a boarding school, his dad agrees to go on a blind date with a stewardess named Joanne Stevens. Now, Hank is clear that all he knows when he books this date is that she's a stewardess,

and he informs us that people in his day called stewardesses stews I've actually read a lot about air travel in this period of time. I've never heard this before I'm not gonna say he's wrong, but that's a stupid thing to call a stewardess That sounds like something he called them and he wants it to sound like yeah, you say stews stews What a weird thing to call a stewardess you see those stews on the flight hey Stu bring me some stew what a weird what a weird

time that I hate everything about that I'm gonna try that next time I'm on a plane I'm gonna call the stewardess or stewardess stew bring me some drinks like they should immediately go on strike. The first time Stu is announced. Yeah, that's a strike worthy thing. And they can shut down the whole country. We saw it happen under Trump, right? Stuartesses have a lot of power for Stuart. I don't know what the, there's probably another term.

Flight attendants. Flight attendant, right? Yeah. Yeah, what are you gonna call them? You can't call them Stu's now. Flindance? That's a terrible thing to call them. Better than stews, arguably. I agree, it's better than stews. So this lady, Joanne Stevens, works when he meets her. She's a stewardess on the specially chartered jet

the Nixon administration is using to campaign. Oh, I mean everything about this shit. I know, but I mean, I will say for Joanne, that you must have hazard pay for that. The degree of harassment you have to encounter as a 50s stewardess on the Nixon plane. There is no part of her that wasn't pinched. Indescribable.

Oh my God. And Hank, by the way, very much a Nixon fan. I'm not shocked. Yeah, he describes himself as being intoxicated by Joanne's free spirit lifestyle And Hank, by the way, very much a Nixon fan. I'm not shocked. Yeah. He describes himself as being intoxicated by Joanne's free spirit lifestyle and deciding that her influence convinced him it was time for him to travel. And this eventually, through a somewhat circuitous route, leads to him embarking on a new life overseas.

He and Joanne get married and he moves to Switzerland. To his credit, he does not leave Dennis behind. To his not credit, he does something a little worse. Here's how a People Magazine article in 1993 describes what happened next. Dennis was sent to a local boarding school where, already a slow student, he had even more difficulty learning foreign languages. His stepmother was unsympathetic. Joanne was unused to children, says Hank. She and Dennis didn't get along. What's unsaid here is that not only does Hank take Joanne, being unused to children, as

an excuse to send his son back to the US, he does so, pulls him out of whatever life he has in the States at a boarding school, puts him in this Swiss boarding school, makes fun of him basically for not being smart enough to pick up German overnight and then when his new fling is like, I don't really like kids, he sends his son back to an American boarding school alone on his birthday. What the fuck? This is like a psychological experiment for like how badly can you fuck up a child? This is mommy dearest level shit. It's really bad

Like I was like, can you hang most of an episode on like how bad a parent one guy was to one kid? And I guess you can because he is such a bad dad Did he have a checklist of like well well, you know, let's just go fuck it all up. I guess. Yeah. Is this guy like Philip Zimbardo secretly like carrying out some fucked up experiment for unclear reasons? Dennis eventually graduated from boarding school in 1966, two years behind his original class.

Hank and Joanne divorced a few years after this, and Hank remarried a woman named, or remarried to a woman named Rolanda. Oh, so he basically sent his kid away for a marriage that didn't even last. Yes, that doesn't last. The marriage with Rolanda does better. He has two children with her, and he does parent them. I'll give him this, he is much better with these kids from everything we know than he was with his first two, which doesn't really make up for it

I know that's one article bar Robert. Yeah, not a high bar I found an old 2001 article in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette by Sharon Randall who talked to Hank before his death And he expressed some regret here quote Pausing a moment to rearrange some pencils on his desk, he added, sometimes young fathers scrambling to make a living to climb the ladder, leave it to the mother to do all the parental things, but you get back what you put into a child. It's like a piano. If you don't give it much attention, you won't get much out of it.

And I actually, you could frame that as growth, but I actually think that's bad because like you don't, you shouldn't take care of your child because you'll get something from it it's because that life you're responsible for you help create it so you should take care of it as well as you can I have a child yeah six I take her to all of her speech therapy appointments I do her doctor appointments I do I have no guarantee she will take care of me one day. And if not her fucking job, she may not. She may turn 18 and say, you know what?

I'm out. Bye, old man. That's her right. I'll be heartbroken. I will be shattered. But it's her right. I didn't have a kid for an investment. I had a kid because I wanted to have a kid and I was able to.

I had a partner who wanted to have a child as well. I am a strong believer in that children have no inherent responsibility to their parents. You did not ask to be brought into the world. You are not in debt to them. Parents have an inherent response. If you're gonna create life, you have a responsibility to it, right?

And he just abrogates it in the case of one of his kids. And then he's like, I was too interested in my career, which was based on my son to raise my son. He's like a piano, which is also fucked up because he actually got a lot more out of his son, his first son than he did the kids he actually raised, because his first son is his meal ticket, but whatever.

I mean, literally the destroyed childhood of his first child paid for the childhoods of all the other kids afterwards. Yeah, yeah. So it works out well for them, right? Yeah. So for Hank's part, the worse he was to his son, the better his cartoon boy tended to do. In 1959, it inspired a live action adaptation,

which is like, he's one of the first cartoon, might've been the first, I don't know if it was the first, but it was certainly one of the first cartoons to get like a live action adaptation, which is like, he's one of the first cartoon, might've been the first, I don't know if it was the first, but it was certainly one of the first cartoons to get like a live action adaptation. There were a few others before that. I'm pretty sure Joe Palooka had one. Yeah. There were a few, but yeah,

it was probably the most successful. But if you read the comic and then like, see, like it's a sitcom. It's nothing really like. No, and it's like, there's people will Dennis, like, it's a sitcom. It's nothing really, like. No, and it's like, there's people talk about, like, the show being bad for its child actor. I'm not gonna bring that down as, like, a thing on Hanks against Hank,

because like- No, that's not his fault. That's most child actors have, at least up until very recently, had, like, it's just a, you probably shouldn't make a kid suddenly world famous and stuff. I would say the physical and mental abuse had I guess just a you probably shouldn't make a kid suddenly world famous and and I would say the physical and mental abuse that Jay North isn't it? Yeah, I think Jane or he suffered Was the fault of all the adults around him because it was his aunt and uncle or his managers and they were the ones abusing him

It was obviously the aunt and uncle fault, but also the adults who saw this and did fucking nothing. Yeah. But you can't really blame Ketchum. He wasn't involved beyond he thought it paid. No, and it's one of those things every time I read about shit like this. I'm not a particular Harry Potter guy, but when it comes to the movies, everything I've read about, like how both the parents of those kids and their co-hosts were like, these kids, we have to really be on the ball to protect them because this is going to be a disaster for all of them if we're not really careful. Yeah. And it seems like they mostly have ended up pretty, I know Daniel Radcliffe had his tough

years, most of us do, but he's doing great. Oh yeah. I think the rest of them seem to be doing well. He got to be a weird owl. Yeah, he got to be a weird owl. What more can you ask for in a life? So good on all of the adults involved in that situation, but not this one.

There was no Jake Lloyd situation. There was, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh God, that's another bleak one. Jesus. Man. Man, the world really hates kids. Yeah, it sure does. Now, during this period, after he moved to Geneva,

Hank decided to stop reading the news. He's a millionaire by this period, after he moved to Geneva, Hank decided to stop reading the news. He's a millionaire by this point, and he decides there's nothing but bad stuff on the news. So he doesn't read it anymore, and because he's living in a foreign country, he feels like he needs to stay up to date on American culture, and he does this by subscribing to the Sears catalog, which he claims gave him

an accurate look at the aesthetics of American life. This apparently worked. Yeah, I don't know. Okay. I think what works, I don't think he keeps up to date with American life, but what works about Dennis the Menace is that it's kind of permanently stuck in an idolized version of the 50s that never existed, right?

Which is fine for a cartoon. It's fine if it's not based on your real life and the family you abandoned, right? And Robert, for people that don't know what Sears is, can you explain that? Oh yeah, your baby's listening to this, aren't they? I was like, it is not around anymore. You kids know how Target and Walmart, they're these big stores people used to go to before Amazon to buy stuff?

Well back even before then, people would buy stuff. Sears had some big stores, but mostly they had a catalog and it would go to your house where you lived on the prairie with your family until you all died of diphtheria and you would order stuff once a year from the Sears catalog to get the things you needed. And they sold everything. They sold houses at one point.

You could get house kits. They sold, I have multiple guns that are antiques that were originally sold to people, mailed to their door through catalogs. I don't have any automatic weapons, but they would ship you machine guns back then. They had their own knockoff Atari in the 70s, early 80s. We had a bunch of cartridges that worked

on the Atari 2600 from them. It's a wild tale. So that's how he stays in touch. And it's one of those things, Dennis the Menace is successful in large part because it stays trapped in the past. And this was very much due to Hank's personality. He told the Washington Post,

"'Turmoil is something I don't need "'other than what I generate myself.'" Which shows more self-knowledge than the rest of the statements he makes. Damn, man. Unfortunately for Hank, but fortunately for the rest of the world, during kind of the period where

Dennis the Menace is hitting its stride, the civil rights movement is also picking up steam, right? This is kind of the mid-60s is when a lot of that stuff really starts to boil over. And Hank, living this wealthy Geneva expat life is like scared and kind of angry at all of this stuff he's seeing, which is like confusing and threatening to him.

And he retreats inside of himself more and more as the civil rights movement goes on. He expressed to the Washington Post later a sentiment that he kind of in Dennis the Menace he replaced the real tumultuous America of the day with his own cartoon version. And I think it's also true that he replaced his own tumultuous and failed first family with this fake version. Right? Both of these are things that he's doing with this cartoon. He's very much using it as a tool to escape reality.

He is a lifelong Republican voter. So perhaps this is not surprising. But that's not an excuse because you have people like Al Cap who are lifelong Republicans. And he used his power to do a comic called the Martin Luther King Jr. and the Montgomery story. Oh yeah. To promote Martin Luther King Jr.

Cause Al Cap, and Al Cap was a piece of shit. Yeah. But like he's still one thing about him, he was for integration. Yeah, that was a kind of guy you had back then. Like there's a number of those from entertainment where it's like, well, this man was a monster everywhere else in his life,

but he was firmly on the side of integration. What? Yeah. Cap was a big admirer of King. And then you have like Charles Shultz after King was assassinated. We're talking about Chuck. And then Franklin.

Yeah, we'll talk about that in just a second. I'm gonna hide. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh God. That's what's coming up here, buddy Oh, no So I do want to continue first with a quote from that Washington Post article It is a world where Ketchum is in control. These are people I want to live with he says of the characters in the musical So familiar from the cartoon Dennis his parents Alice and Henry, and their next door neighbors, George and Martha Wilson.

If they aren't what I like, I erase them. The headlines can be murderous and bloody, but in my world, the birds are singing. And that is such a telling line, if they aren't what I like, I erase them, because that is what you did to your own son. Mm-hmm. Like when he didn't turn out the way you wanted

as a small child. Yeah. Now you won't be surprised to hear from that, that the world he creates does not include black people for quite some time small child. Yeah. Now you won't be surprised to hear from that, that the world he creates does not include black people for quite some time, right? Yeah. Hank's cartoon is not unlike most popular culture made by white people in that time, right?

And that it ignored the existence of black Americans to a large degree. And like, I think one of the first times I was aware of this as a kid, every Christmas my family would watch the Bing Crosby, Danny Kay movie, White Christmas. Oh, geez. A lot of great stuff about that movie.

The only black people you see are working as like waitstaff on a train, right? And they don't say anything. That's the only time you see any black people in that movie. That was just, I mean, that was, it's not good, but that was like not, Hank is not unique, right, in this, in his cartoon in this way.

Well, I mean, there was a problem in general with black representation in comic strips. Yes. If you wanted to see black representation, either it was black-faced characters, or you had to go to black newspapers where you would have comic strips, which that, the world of black comic strips are amazing

and none of people know about them. Is there any reading you might recommend on that that you could pull up? I wish there was. My spouse has actually been going through archives and collecting old strips. If you want, I'll send you a file of some of the ones we have found, cause we found some really cool ones.

I mean, that'd be a great thing to be able to like host and just let people go through if it's possible. I don't know what the- That is the goal, I think a lot of it We'll come back to that then. Yeah, but even then like I have an article that was published in 73 when Beetle Bailey brought in a black character and how there were newspapers in 73 dropping it Yeah, and Mark Walker's response was it's unrealistic to have a comic about the army and not have a black character present. Yep, yep.

And that's like, it's 1965 is when a major publisher produces the first dedicated comic book with a black hero, right? Is that Lobo? Yeah, it's Lobo. 1965, and that's just two years after the first black man wins an Academy Award for a leading role. And it's Sidney Poitier, obviously.

That was also Dell Comics. The fucking goat. Dell Comics, as I recall, they were kind of in their Hail Mary years, and they were just desperately trying. Now, there had been a comic in the 40s. I can't remember the name. What was it? All Negro Comics, which was created in 47.

It was created by black creators. Yeah. And this is a period where, I mean, like that kind of stuff, I think I would love to know more about. Like it's such an uphill battle, right? To try and make sure that like the popular culture that most people see as reflecting America includes black people. That's such a struggle during this period of time.

I think a lot about you watch those old Star Trek episodes and Ahorah often doesn't have a whole lot to do. They clearly didn't always know what should we have this character doing. Just like having... Whoopi Goldberg talks about this. Just the fact that there was a black woman on television that wasn't anybody's maid, that was like doing a real job, that was an officer like everybody else, was a huge fucking deal. And you know, that extends to the world of cartoons. And I think one of the first, maybe the first really major white cartoonists to start including

a black character in his cartoon was Charles Schultz, as you kind of hinted at a bit ago. 1968 is when he introduces Franklin. And I want to talk about Schultz for a little bit, not because what he does is like heroic. It's not. It's beyond the minimum, but it's not like a wild act of radicalism or whatever. We're going to be covering how Hank handles the same situation. And I wanna start with how a basically decent man, and I think Chuck Schultz was a basically decent man. I've never heard a bad word about him.

Yeah, I never heard a bad word about him. Handles integrating a black character into his cartoon and why he does it. Here's what he says about the decision to add Franklin to the comic strip later. I could have put him in long before that, but for other reasons I didn't. I didn't want to intrude upon the work of others. I could have put him in long before that, but for other reasons I didn't. I didn't want to intrude upon the work of others.

I think he's talking about some of those black cartoonists you mentioned earlier here. So I held off on that. But finally I put Franklin in, and there was one strip where Charlie Brown and Franklin had been playing on the beach, and Franklin said, Well, it's been nice being with you. Come on over to my house sometime. Again, they didn't like that. Another editor protested once when Franklin was sitting in the same row of school desks

with Pepper and Patty and said, "...we have enough trouble here in the South without you showing the kids together in school." But I never paid attention to those things, and I remember telling Larry Rutman, president of United Features Syndicate, at the time about Franklin. He wanted me to change it, and we talked about it for a long time on the phone, and I finally sighed and said, "...well, Larry, let's put it this way. Either you print it just the way I draw it or I quit. How's that? So that's the way things ended. But I've never done much with Franklin because

I don't do race things. I'm not an expert on race. I don't know what it's like to grow up as a little black boy. And I think that gives you a really good idea of like how a well-meaning person would handle this. First off, he does go beyond the minimum here when he's like, look man, who's your next pick for Charles Schultz if I won't make this comic for you? Who else are you gonna have to have fucking peanuts? And he was at the height of his popularity. Absolutely.

And it would've been a big deal. And that's meaningful. For him to walk away from that, that's a walk away from a lot of money. He's arguably maybe not the only cartoonist, but certainly one of the only cartoonists who could have forced something like this into a major cartoon.

Who could have forced them to show like integrated schools and stuff in his cartoon. Cause he had that much clout and it's good that he used it that way. There are other people who could have, but like from the article from 73, I remember like Ernie Bushmiller who did Nancy was like, nah, I don't want to touch political stuff.

You don't want that hate? Yeah. One of my predecessors, Bud Sagendorf worked in Popeye. I kind of get his viewpoint. He's like, the way I draw everyone, when you put a brown skin tone on them, it looks like a racist character. He's like, I don't wanna make this worse.

Yeah, and I think that's not unfair necessarily. Yeah, no, he was understanding that if I do this, it looks, with the history of comics and how black people have been treated in comics. I shouldn't be the guy to do this, right? That's fair, and I think that what Schultz did, again, I don't wanna go like overboard praising him because he's not putting his life on the line here.

But I think what he is doing, what he would say he's doing is he's looking at people putting their lives on the line and saying, well, like, I am in a position where I can force this through and I should, right? I don't really know how to write this character, but maybe that's not what matters right now.

What matters is just showing that Charlie Brown's America, which is one of the most popular depictions of fictional America, includes black people, right? And that's a good thing to do, right? That's a praiseworthy, some amount of praise, at least. It's worth acknowledging. And I will also add that he never really talked about that during his lifetime.

It's only in the last few years that it's come out. And they're actually doing a short, I think, where it may have already come out, a cartoon special about Franklin. That's a retelling of that first storyline. And I think it's also perfectly fair for Schultz to be like, look, man, I'm not the guy to start making points about race in America,

or try to depict the life of a young black boy in the 60s. No, he's right, he shouldn't. That's not when anyone comes to Pena. I shouldn't be doing that. I just wanna make people to know that he's here. And I think that is respectable. And I think it's worth covering this respectable attempt to add, like to integrate the world of comics,

you could say, with what Hank Ketchum does. About two years after Shultz debuts Franklin, in 1970, Hank Ketchum adds his first black character to Dennis the Menace. And Randy, have you seen this comic? I did not know there was a black character. Oh boy. His name is Jackson and I'm just gonna have Sophie show it to you and you can just.

Um hold on a second. What the fuck? What the fuck? That is. He's a Sambo character. I don't like that is. He has white lips. That is the best way to describe him.

I don't know how to actually like describe how he draws this character. I will. Without sounding racist. He's an inkblot character with white lips. He is a character. He is a caricature. He is a 1940s character.

Oh my. I have seen Neo-Nazi- And the caption. And the caption. We'll get to that. I wanna note, the first thing I thought when I saw this, cause I used to do a lot of stalking Nazis online, I have seen Neo-Nazi comics from the 90s that depicted black people almost identically

to the way that he does in this. It is bad people. It is really bad. Some of them most, so my spouse and I, one of our hobbies is we go through newspaper archives. I love looking for lost comic strips, by the way. But that means I also see a lot of really weird racist shit

from the 1910s, 19... This could have been printed in 1921. Yeah, it's wild how bad it is for 1970. That is, he has giant white lips. You can't see his nose. He is ink black. He is as black as the father's hair. And like, he doesn't have, like, the Popeye guy,

I get that argument, like, all of my characters are caricatures, I don't really know how to draw a black person and not have it look like a problem. This is so different from everything else he ever draws. Yes, yes, he draws normal looking people. That's a general rule. Now here's my question though. I need to know this. Cause Ketchum did have ghost artists and ghost writers.

No, this was him. This was him. It was not Wiseman. That I don't think has even started yet. This is him. No, Al Wiseman had been working since the 50s, but he was mostly working on the comic book, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Like, and the comic book he talks about that, that winds up coming on and coming off because it gets too expensive. But like, this is, because he writes about this. Like he's- He takes credit for this. He takes credit for this, yes. Oh shit, I wouldn't.

And there is, so the cartoon we're talking about, we were so bowled over by how racist it is. Like it is, you've got Dennis the Menace's dad mowing the lawn, he's looking over and there's Dennis and there's Jackson and Dennis is saying- And the father looks terrified. The father looks scared to see this little boy.

Dennis says, I'm having some race trouble with Jackson. He runs faster than I do. What is that saying, man? What is that even saying? Like I know what he's saying is like, Dennis doesn't see race, right? That is the actual point of the comic, which is also- He doesn't get it, it's funny.

It's a whole I don't understand thing. And again, there's something quietly political about that first Franklin strip, because he's just making the point that Franklin is welcome in Charlie Brown's home, right? And actually in that time, that is kind of a political statement. It's like the same part of the Mr. Rogers episode

where he shares a foot wash with a black man. Yeah, or when he like shares a hug or something with like that guy who was suffering from HIV to be like, look, you don't have to treat these people. There is a subtle politics. Yes, a subtle, meaningful, earnest politics as opposed to whatever the fuck this is. And a lot of people get angry at this cartoon.

Hank even alleges that there are violent attacks as a result of this cartoon. This is from his autobiography. A harmless little play on words and I felt a soft, amusing beginning. Not so, the rumble started in Detroit then moved south to St. Louis, where rocks and bottles were thrown through the windows

of the post dispatch. Newspaper boys were being chased and hassled in Little Rock. And in Miami, some Herald editors were being threatened. The cancer quickly spread to others' large cities. Am I wrong? No, it's the children who are- It's the people. And like, did you ever describe racism as a cancer or just people getting angry?

That you drew a slur in your cartoon Hank I I would say if he had said, you know what I drew this and I did not think about the fact I was thinking With the mind of a man born the 20s. Yeah, I should have stepped back I should have he needed someone in that room to say that's not okay It does say a lot about the state of the industry that this comic presumably passes through a bunch of people's hands before it goes up It dude. I I did a comment not long ago That was it was a throwaway Popeye strip and the joke was when I was a child I was convinced the song caught and I Joe was about a zombie

So I just heard about that. And one of my editors is like, hey, just so you know, there might be some racist history to that song. And so there was a meeting about this trip. And I mean, there's an article, it's questionable. And my whole thing was like, OK, we'll just pull it like just pull it. Like, even if it's not true, so one of them might think it. I don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

But like multiple editors got together with me. We had a big discussion on it. Yeah. And that looked nothing like this. Yeah. I'm sure the extent of this conversation was like, he sends this cartoon, an editor on his fourth highball at lunch was like, great work! You're going to fix the race problem in this country and then back to drinking eyeballs

Like if that had run in 55, I'm like, oh, yeah, of course that fucking ran. Yeah, but 70s. Mm-hmm Wild stuff. Oh my fucking god So he describes being mad as hell at the reaction that this gets and shamed He did he ought to be. Snopes notes that at the time, a number of newspapers ran apologies to their readers for this cartoon. And they provide an example from the Cleveland Press. Yesterday's Dennis the Menace cartoon

offended a number of press readers. The press apologizes for the affront caused by the cartoonist. It assures subscribers that such a thing will not happen again. Oh, I'm sure he was not happy about that. No, he was not. And normally I would say, don't throw the cartoonist under the bus.

No. In this case, yeah, throw the cartoonist under the bus. Hobble him so he can't get out of the way. Just let it go. So Ketchum, for reasons that are known only to God, would make one more comic featuring Jackson. I will say this Jackson is drawn less racially than before. Not well, not good, but not the same.

I'm dreadness. I'm dreadness. It's still not good. It's still maybe a little, definitely a little bit of a problem, but uh, better. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, better. I would actually think that's a totally different character, to be honest. Yes, it is drawn wildly differently.

So for the people who obviously can't see this, the character is drawn less as a giant inkblot child. He still seems to have white lips, which is not good. Yeah, but also a third of his head is white, I think just because of where the light's supposed to be. It's supposed to be able to shine. But it looks really odd. It was common at this point in time

that black characters were shown with a crosshatching. Franklin was drawn the same way. It's just kinda how it was done. Yeah, yeah. I don't agree with it, but it's true. But yeah, again, the white lips like that's a weird telltale like that. All he had to do was give like the textured hair. Yeah. I mean, look at the comic Curtis, which is a granted drawn by a black creator.

Like you can give features that denote African-American heritage without going to fucking stereotypes. Yeah. And his arms are still jet black. I think another thing you could do, and maybe other cartoonists could have done too, is like, well, I don't know how to draw this cartoon or make a point. I'll just have a black cartoonist take over my strip for a day, you know? Yeah. And like, put out something. You don't have to do this, Hank. Like,

you could use your clout here some other way. And then- Or actually hire a consultant, a black artist, and tell me what- Hire a consultant, yeah. Go to someone and say, give them money because they shouldn't have to fucking do it for free. Particularly after your first cartoon causes a riot. Like, maybe you're not the one to handle this anymore.

And the cartoon itself is, yeah, his mom's got two cookies and she's like looking at the two boys and- Again, she's nervous. She's nervous. Dennis has his hand out towards Jackson. He's like, me and Jackson are exactly the same age, only he's different. He's left-handed.

And again, it's the same punchline where like, all of you, silly Americans in the civil rights movement care so much about race. Dennis, the menace, the boy I invented while ignoring my own son doesn't even see race. You know, like he's feels like a conservative, like, well, my character gets it. What's wrong with you liberals? I'm much woker than you, but for living in Geneva and ignoring the civil rights movement. As the years go on, Hank is going to increasingly defiantly avoid any interaction with the real world or any hint that life for a regular Americans was no longer the bland fifties

daydream he depicted in Dennis the Menace and had actually himself failed to live in the 1950s. And we are going to talk about what happens to the real Dennis after he gets out of school. But first, what's gonna happen to you is you're gonna listen to these ads. ["The Real Dennis"] In the 1980s and 90s, New York City needed a tough cop like Detective Louis Garcela.

Putting bad guys away, there's no feeling like it in the world. He was the guy who made sure the worst killers were brought to justice. That's one version. This guy is a piece of s***. Derek Hamilton was put away for murder by Detective Scarcella. In prison, Derek turned himself into the best jailhouse lawyer of his generation. And the law was my girlfriend.

This is my only way of freedom. Derek and other convicted murderers started a law firm behind bars. We never knew we had the same cop in the case. Scarcella. We got to show that he's a corrupt cop. They can go f*** themselves. I'm C. Fishman.

And I'm Dax Devlin Ross. And this is The Burden. Listen to new episodes of The Burden on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive bonus content, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. Hey, this is Dan. And this is Reed Isbell, also known as the Brothers Hunt. And we're the hosts of the podcast, God's Country, produced by MeatEater and iHeart

Podcasts. Y'all should check out our latest episode with our good old buddy, Luke Combs. Yeah, I know you saw him on Grammys performing fast car with Tracy Chapman. So that was really cool, man. And I feel like we just connected on that call and then she agreed to do it. A few weeks later, she agreed to do it. But did you know he once ran the go-karts

at Asheville Fun Depot? You got seven minutes out there, absolutely no bumping. Keep your hands in. Wait, we can't bump? Boo. Can't bump. But why is there a bumper on the car? No, you can bump if you want to. You said we can't bump. Boo! Can't bump. But why is there a bumper on the car? No, you can bump if you want to.

You said we can't bump. Right. If you do, I'm going to kick you off. And you should also definitely listen to this episode. If you like liver mush, gross. Or if you hate liver mush. There's a town in North Carolina that has a liver mush festival. It's that popular.

Why have we not been to that? I don't know. That sounds like a bad idea. Why am I not headlining it? Listen to God's Country on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Everyone in our country has a voice. It's something that says not just where you come from,

but who you are. Welcome to NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths. A collection of podcasts and a celebration of the hosts in journalism who've always spoken truth to power. Our voices are as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as the Black experience, and stories should never be about us without us. Find NPR Black Stories, Black Truths on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're back. So, we're talking about the real Dennis the Menace again. Now he gets out of school in 1966. He never benefited from the protection his father's wealth might have allowed him. And he joins the Marine Corps in 1966. Oh shit. Yes. And he goes straight to Vietnam. He is stationed in Vietnam and he sees, from what I can tell, pretty heavy combat. So unlike his father who was drafted, he sees action.

Yes, he has a bad tour. People Magazine quotes him as saying, my grandmother and aunt sent me letters, but never dad. When People Magazine went to Hank and were like, did you not send your son letters when he was in Vietnam, they note, quote, Hank insists he did write to his son. I know who I believe. Just based on the rest of the story, I know who I believe.

Yeah, that's, um, if I'm not mistaken, he was also in the 70s doing like a military comic called Half Hitch, wasn't he? Oh, was he? Yeah, Kitchum did a strip, um, oh no way, I'm double checking it. He did it like during, that was his uh, WWII comic, Half Hitch. But he brought it back from 70 to 75. Oh wow, just at the tail end of Vietnam, huh? Uh huh, and a couple years after with him. Weird.

That's peculiar. But not interested in his own son who was technically serving in a branch of the Navy. Sorry Marines, that's the truth. So Dennis the Menace sees some shit in Vietnam and he comes home with severe PTSD. The real Dennis the Menace is a traumatized NAM veteran. He has trouble functioning in society. He is unable to really hold down a job for a considerable period of time. He moves through a lot of like low paid gigs.

He's a prison guard for a while. He's a ranch hand. And by 1990, he's living in Ohio and is generally described in articles at the time as being estranged from his father. When some people would reach out, he would make comments to the effect that like, yeah, having a popular comic named after me and based on me by my dad who abandoned me

really messed with me. And again, Hank's response to this is, these things happen. They don't. Nope, they really don't. They really shouldn't. Now, for reasons that probably aren't surprising, the real Dennis the Menace has a tumultuous personal life. He has several divorces. For reasons I don't know, he is legally barred for a time from seeing his teenage daughter Jennifer Probably not a great story there that people article concludes every now and then as he did a couple weeks ago Dennis phones his father. I see your movie is out said Dennis and this is when the The the movie with the guy from fucking

Walter Mathau, this is a villain in the movie. You're right. We'll talk about Walter Mathau in a second. No, no, I love Walter Mathau. I see your movie is out, said Dennis. I hope you see it, Hank replied. Dennis said he hoped to. He then announced that he and Janet, who's his wife at the time, are quitting their jobs and resettling in the Southwest and asked his father to help finance their move.

That's the way many of our conversations go, says Hank, sadly. When you're reading every article you can find about a guy, which I did for Hank, a funny thing happens, which is that you pick up some patterns. In multiple interviews, he will tell people in this period of time, my son only calls me to ask for money. There's one exception to this, and it's a 2001 article in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette by Sharon Randall.

And in it, Hank speaks very differently about this part of their relationship. Quote, when I asked about Dennis, he said he checks in about twice a year, and if he needs something, I try to help him. That's a really different response from he only calls me when he wants money, right? Which makes me think he caught some flak. Did he catch some flak? Is it just because the interviewer is a woman? Is he like into her? Does he want money, right? Which makes me think he caught some flack. Did he catch some flack? Is it just cause the interviewer is a woman? Is he like into her?

Does he want to impress her? Like I couldn't tell you why he phrases it this way, but it really stuck out to me. Where every other time he's like, he just wants money. And this time he's like, I try to help him when I can, you know, try to be a good dad. And like- That's suspect.

Again, in addition to like the, I don't think that like kids have responsibility to your parents. If you have money as a parent, I don't think you have a responsibility to make your kids rich. I think it's actually terrible for them if you do. But if you base a cartoon on your son

and kind of destroy his childhood, partly as a result of that, you probably do owe him some of your millions. You should probably give him some of your riches If I made a comic based off my daughter and it became like I would feel like I'd have to put at least some of the Money aside for yes. I think most people would cuz she had no ability. She's sick She can't know that and it's gonna affect her life less now But like back then especially like cartoons being as central as they were to like child culture

Yeah Now in that article that people article by Michael Lipton There's a very devastating line where and this comes from part of the interview with Dennis quote dad can be like a stranger Counters Dennis who has never met his two half siblings. Sometimes I think that if he died tomorrow, I wouldn't feel anything That's that's what we call in the narrative business, a setup. So as soon as he's able to justify it, Hank, as you've noted, takes a backseat in the production of his own cartoon.

He brings in ghost writers and artists to draw it, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that shit. No, it's part of the industry, it happens. Behind the Bastards is still a one-man shop in terms of the writing of episodes, but if I ever got the chance to retire wealthy and have some Zoomer pretend to be me and use an AI voice, maybe I've done that already.

Maybe you don't know. You'll never know if it's still me. I mean, you know, Randy, and you know so. Yeah, I was like, I can see you. Yeah, you can see me. So I don't know, I'm not gonna shit talk him on that, especially since it's not an AI. Actual artists are getting their start,

are building careers, drawing the Dinnist, the Menace cartoon. And that's fine. It is a very common thing throughout this entire industry. So I mean. Nothing wrong with that. The only cartoonist I know of who was very big, who refused let someone draw his comic was Charles Schultz.

Yeah, yeah, Schultz and obviously in Watterson. Yeah, Watterson, yeah, obviously, yeah. And Larsen, Gary Larsen, I'm pretty sure. Oh yeah, yeah, obviously, yeah. And Larson, Gary Larson, I'm pretty sure. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also like those are guys like, I think Larson just brought it back, if I'm not mistaken. He's done some- He's on Facebook, I believe. He's doing them.

And Watterson also came from a different field. Watterson came from political comics. Yes. And like you can tell from his line work, that's what he started out as. And I think when you get a political comics like Berkeley Breathed or Gary Tudeau, that's just not a field that normally has ghost artists.

God, yeah. I was a huge Bloom County fan as a kid too. Didn't understand a lot of the comments about fucking the Symbionese liberation army and shit that he was dropping, but love that opus. He's so fun. Oh, Bill the Cat. Love Cutter John.

Yeah, Bill the Cat, great stuff. So yeah, I got no issue with the fact that he gives up drawing his cartoon gradually, obviously that makes sense to me. He does it in favor of spending his free time painting artsy depictions of jazz singers and other like he tries to start a fine art career. And he would claim later in life that this is the work he wanted to be remembered by.

Dennis the Menace was, he admitted, just a money generator. His art was what he was really in, like that was the posterity, right? He says in this interview with SF Gate, now my painting, painting that's something else My bid to posterity is my paintings and here's a painting he did of Jesus I'm gonna hate this aren't I it's it's just weird. It's not bad. It's not bad, but it's weird What the hell I guess that's hair cuz it's like on his armpits and his chest But it looks like he's got ninja stars sticking into him. That is a little odd, but like, like not bad, I wouldn't say. That's the worst thing I've seen.

It has a charm to it. It definitely it has influences of his. It's weird he doesn't want me to run for his comic, because I know a lot of artists who love his line work. Like his line work was very influential. Certainly. I mean, he's a He was not, yeah, certainly. I mean, he's a good, good drawer, good illustrator. I certainly, I find Dennis the Menace,

I can probably recall the basic animation of that cartoon with my eyes closed. And I don't think I'll remember this Jesus painting very much. No, looks like kind of like a bomb. Is that a bomb of Jesus? No, he didn't live that long. So he wouldn't have done it.

And here's an untitled painting. I need my glasses on, that's probably what's wrong. A bearded man, this one's weirder. An untitled painting of a bearded man in a dog collar reaching for a cigarette while a dominatrix stands over him. What the hell? That's a weird painting from the fucking

Dennis the Midas guy, huh? There's no title to it, so I don't know what he was going for with this. Like, I, it, clearly that's a dominatrix though, right? Both of those women have to be, yeah. A pair of dominatrixes. Dominatrices. Yeah, and the guy's got like a golden or a bronze collar.

He's got like spiked collars around his hands too, and he's like on his knees grasping for a cigarette someone stepped on, it looks like it's weird. It's weird. The women are laced up knee high boots. Yeah. It's interesting. This is like learning.

It's not bad. Yeah. It's like learning one of the creators of Superman did all that weird bondage and murder. Yeah. It's it's definitely odd. It's not what I would have called for him. It certainly doesn't remind me of his cartoons, but it's like it's it's competently drawn. It's actually like. It's not what I would have called for him. It certainly doesn't remind me of his cartoons, but it's like, it's competently drawn. It's actually like the composition's nice.

Like I like the facial structure. Like I like the line work. I would not have expected. I saw it online. I think this was going for like 200 bucks. So like it's affordable. If you want to Hank Ketchum original, you can probably make that happen for yourself.

I mean, stuff might not be, I mean, hmm. I'm sure his cartoons are pricier, but I don't think there's a lot of interest in his weird dominatrix art. So one of the most interesting articles I ran into on the man's personality was published by the LA Times in 1986. And it's got some really good paragraphs.

Having been approached by his fellow cartoonists to join them in the crusade against hunger in Africa, Ketchum declined. I think we have other priorities right here. I prefer to do everything I can for my neighbors, then the peninsula, then the state, then the country. My priorities are not overseas. No, of course not, for God's sake. Like, yeah, yeah, a very standard thing, but worth bringing up just in terms of like the kind of guy he was. There's a revealing moment in this article where the journalist is like looking at his drawing desk in his office and sees a picture of a little boy on the desk and he's like,

Oh, is that a picture of your son, Dennis, the original Dennis the Menace? And Hank's answer is, Nah, he's 40 now, doing his own thing. We don't communicate that much. So who's the five-year-old in the picture? That's me Now does he look like a menace nice chunky little fella future Republican fella future grumpy old man What a weird what a weird thing to say So we're having a picture like yourself for the cartoon that you draw about your kid who you abandoned a little weird

Yeah for the cartoon that you draw about your kid who you abandoned? A little weird. Yeah. So, I don't know. You can have whatever opinion on his fine art you want, but time has shown pretty clearly that he is not going to be remembered for that. He will be remembered for both Dennis the Menace and being a bad dad. Hank himself died in 2001, and his first son, the original Dennis the Menace, did not attend his funeral. Nor would he. Do we know what he's doing now is he okay? I haven't heard much I haven't heard anything about him in the last few years I mean he would be pretty old at this point if he's still around I wish him the best

Maybe depending on what happened with his teenage daughter. I guess I don't know fully but yeah That's gonna help with that. I'll tell you that much I mean like you're abandoned by your family like your mom was probably not really present your dad ditches you Then you go to fucking Vietnam Well, first of all, then you're gonna send you your mom dies You don't find out your dad remarries moves you across the world gets mad You're not learning a new language when you're having trouble learning moves you across the world, gets mad you're not learning a new language when you're having trouble learning.

His new wife says, and I want him, you get sent away. That marriage doesn't even fucking work out. The Niko and the Marines serve in a war that is fucking horrible. Come back to all that hate because let's be honest, I'm sure he was not treated real well when he got back and the government kind of forgot about you just like your dad did There's just so much pain and sadness there Yeah, it's a and all people do is associate you with a cartoon version of yourself that from a dad who didn't know you Yeah, yeah, yeah but you know He your dad built an entire world off you.

There's been so many Dennis Mendes movies. There were cartoon shows. I mean, when I was a kid, Dennis Mendes was like a Dairy Queen mascot. Yeah, yeah, he's the DQ kid. And it's, yeah, to think that like, from the perspective of Dennis the real boy, the only moment where his dad paid attention to him

was that moment his mom yelled at him that inspired the comic and that was all His dad needed from him and his entire life. That is like that's So that's bleak. I Wonder if the author of Gone Girl got inspired by this story when she wrote Look, you know, do you know that what I'm talking about? Anyone? Isn't that the one with Ben Affleck? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the main female character's entire life was her mom wrote books called The Amazing Amy, and it was inspired by her, but not actually about her. And I just wonder if the author, I think the author's name is Gillian Flynn. I just wonder if the author. Maybe. There's a lot of parallels there.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Well, everybody, that's behind the bastards. Randy, where can people find you online? Probably crawling in a corner for a while after that goddamn story. Yeah. I guess I shouldn't be complaining because I don't get brought on for the dying baby episodes.

So that's nice. Just the traumatized child episodes. An awful cartoon, which is a lot. I can't wait to come back for El Cap. Or the guy who did Annie. He was a piece of shit too. Somethingpawsive.net, that is the comic I've been drawing since 2001. I also draw the Sunday Popeye strips, as well as the Thursday Olive and Popeye comics. I also do a comic called Mousetrap, which you can find, folks, and go to hell. I love you.

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. you get your punch. In the 1980s and 90s, New York City needed a tough cop like Detective Louis Scarcella. Putting bad guys away. There's no feeling like it in the world. He was the guy who made sure the worst killers were brought to justice. That's one version. This guy is a piece of sh-

Derek Hamilton was put away from murder by Detective Scarcella. In prison, Derek turned himself into the best jailhouse lawyer of his generation. And the law was my girlfriend. This is my only way to freedom. Derek and other convicted murderers started a law firm behind bars.

We never knew we had the same cop in the case. Scarcella. We got to show that he's a corrupt cop. They can go f*** themselves. I'm Steve Fishman. And I'm Dax Devlin-Ross. And this is The Burden. Listen to new episodes of The Burden

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive bonus content, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts. Hey, this is Dan. And this is Reed Isbell. And we're the hosts of the podcast, God's Country. Check out our latest episode with our good old buddy, Luke Combs.

Yeah, I know you saw him on Grammys performing Fast Car with Tracy Chapman. But did you know he once ran the go-karts at Asheville Fun Depot? You can get seven minutes out there, absolutely no bumping. Definitely listen to this episode. If you like liver mush, gross.

If it was called Breakfast Delight, you'd be like, that sounds pretty cool. I would try that. Listen to God's Country on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Everyone in our country has a voice. It's something that says not just where you come from, but who you are. Welcome to NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection of podcasts and a celebration

of the hosts in journalism who've always spoken truth to power. Our voices are as varied, nuanced, and dynamic as the Black experience, and stories should never be about us without us. Find NPR Black Stories, Black Truths on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.