Behind the Bastards - Part Two: The RFK Jr. Episodes

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Robert and Cody continue the epic tale of Bobby Kennedy Jr, falconer and rotting animal carcass connoisseur.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Also media. Oh, God. Yeah. It's behind the bastards. The only podcast that just made you reconsider listening to this podcast because that's not an appropriate sound to make for a bunch of people driving to work. Cody and I are truly horrifying with their kids in the yard. You know, I apologize for that.

We're not going to go back. You can't edit audio. You know, it's impossible. You know, if that dream were real, if you could, by God, We would change this podcast. Oh, my God. If only, there's so many things would be different if we could edit audio and video. What's exciting, Robert, is that we may or may not release video at some point at an undisclosed time.

Maybe, maybe not, allegedly. Who knows? We will be. We will be. So we can edit that, finally. The listeners will get to see Cody and I make faces. Maybe that were. Maybe.

Maybe we'll include those. They were really fun. Just some honest reactions. I thoroughly enjoyed Cody's face, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe we'll all get to, hmm. No, I don't want to make any of those jokes.

Let's move on. Cody, how are we feeling about Bobby Kennedy, you know, as we roll into part two? Right now, he's not a bad guy, you know? My feeling is that he never had a chance. Yeah, right. That is, the bastardry here is primarily, not because, again, and he is admitted to sexually, basically admitted to sexually assaulting people. So I'm not trying to whitewash RFK Jr. either.

But like the primary bastard of the story is the concept of the Kinnestey dynasty dynasty and what it does to these kids. Yeah. Not good. Not good. Never had a chance. Really bad. Really bad.

It's like if you, it's like scientists in a lab we're trying to cook up the worst way to raise people. I just watched the movie they cloned Tyrone, which is, I don't want to like, spoil it. for you, but excellent, excellent. Really, really good movie. Really, really cool. And the Kennedys kind of feel like the reverse of that premise. If instead of, you know, I don't know how to say this, but going too bad.

But it's like somebody, it's like a bunch of creepy scientists. We're trying to like design a ruling dynasty in a lab and just completely fucked up at it, you know? Like the experiment did not work. Or like a more ambitious like dog tooth. Yeah. I don't know what that is. just like raise our kids in the most like fucked up way possible.

Yeah. Yeah. I think about like those, um, those like, uh, those fucking nerds who keep winding up in the media. Every like three months, the news will decide. Let's have a little circus around these like, we have to have as many kids as possible because we're exceptionally smart people. And like we've got to, we have a responsibility and I hit my kids, but for science reasons, you know?

And then you ask them for the science reasons and they're like, I saw a tiger do it once. And like, well, that's not science. Yeah. Tiger hit their kids. Man, what else? Do you, when they get sick? Do you eat your young? Because I have seen a cat do that. I have seen it eat its own kittens because the kitten was ill.

Are you doing that? Are you going to eat your sick kids so that predators don't smell them? You know? No, you're not doing that because we don't take parenting advice from tigers. Data points from tigers. Oh, fuck. Those freaks. We're never going to.

I mean, last episode, I kept wanting to like bring them up because this is just that. We've got to have as many as possible. our army is being created by us and for our children. All I hope, and again, this is the, not to whitewash RFK Jr., but I actually walked away, very rare for me, but I walked away more sympathetic towards him than I was when I, because it's just not, again, not that he doesn't have agency in the bad things he's done, but my God, how could this story have ended well? Yeah, I mean, it's the, you know, it's how you create empathy for like villains in the stories.

Like, well, if you know their backstory, then you understand. understand how they got that way. It doesn't excuse their actions at that point, but you're like, oh, man. Yeah. Never had a chance. It honestly makes him scarier. I talk about like the sympathetic young Hitler a lot, but like another young Hitler story is when he was a young man living independently as like a poor artist in Vienna. He was kept afloat by his dad's old government pension, which he gave up, which rendered him completely destitute because his sister had a kid and she needed the money more. You can find in the Hitler story a truly selfless act because he wasn't always destined to be fucking Hitler. And you kind of have to accept that with most of you.

No one's destined to be here. There's some five-year-olds out there torturing cats and stuff. Maybe those people, right? Maybe it happens occasionally. But that's not the story we're talking about today for sure. No, he loves animals. He loves them. He did maybe kill that endangered turtle.

But, you know, someone should have stopped him. That was the adults. And at this point, Sergeant Shriver shouldn't have let him steal an endangered turtle. Probably shouldn't let him do that. Maybe that was the start. Maybe that was the start of it all. It's just like, well, you know, your uncle just died. Sure.

Abducted turtle. Come on. There you go. Africa's got plenty of them. Yeah. Speaking of things, Africa's got a lot of probably podcast, cold opens. And this podcast, cold open is done. It's time to warm it up.

That's right. That's right. I just made that up. It wasn't it great, Cody? It's good. It's good. Can I be in your band? If you send me that audio file, I will turn that into a hit.

Yeah. It's already a hit, obviously. You can turn that into a hit along with that clip we found of Rush Limbaugh saying bust female vaginal walls. Cody, that's a great one. It's in the Dr. Laura episodes. You're going to love it. Really good stuff. I won't actually love it.

Really horrible thing to hear. Yeah. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him?

I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. On the day his dad died, Bobby Jr. was at his boarding school, Georgetown Prep, which was run by Jesuits and had a reputation for being one of those places you sent rich boys to turn them into responsible members of the power elite. Bobby was sleeping in his dorm room when his dad was assassinated and was woken by one of the fathers or whatever. I don't know if it's a father, if it's like more of a monk type deal,

but one of the Jesuits guys comes down and is like, hey, a chartered car has come for you in the night. I'm not going to explain why, but you probably, you're a Kennedy at this point. You probably can assume a bad thing happened. The pattern is establishing itself. Yeah. So he is taken to the Kennedy compound at Hickory Hill.

The whole experience is obviously his dad got shot to death, right? That's traumatic, you know? There's no way for that not to be traumatic. Bobby and his siblings are ushered in to see their father before like while he's still technically alive, but like, and that's like a hideous, I don't know. I don't know. I can't say that's the wrong thing to do. There's really not a wrong or a right thing. But like what condition, like how is he? How responsive is he? Is that going to be more traumatic? But still seeing him at some point where he's technically alive does that help. I don't know. Everyone's different. What definitely does not help is that this whole period, every moment of this where they're outside the compact. and outside of that hospital room, they're surrounded by press, right? To an extent that, like, even today is probably pretty rare, right? Like, the sheer degree of attention on them has to make this even harder to handle, right?

Than just having your dad shot to death in public. They are subjected to a massive public show of mourning at the funeral of their dad. There's, like, a hobo march for RFK because he was such, like, so beloved by so many, like, poor and struggling people. Like he really is, and again, we can argue like how fair is it. There's some bad stuff he did. But like that, that love is real, you know, and that contributes to how RFK Jr. and his siblings are processing all of this. Ethel Kennedy, Bobby's mom's kind of collapses after her husband gets murdered.

And I have a lot of criticisms of Ethel, but like, again, you got 11 kids and your husband to get shot to death. Sure. I mean, like, what do you? Yeah. Who, like, what are you going to do? Like, it's so easy to judge how people react to these sort of things. What's the good reaction?

It's not what she did, but I can't say that, like, I would have done better as Ethel, you know? Yeah. The big change, the biggest difference between how the Kennedy family as a unit reacts to JFCK getting shot. I was going to say JFK getting blown away. But how many more, how many more Billy Joel references are necessary in this episode? Probably one more, but maybe not that one. Only one more. I don't know.

But there's a big difference between how the family reacts, JFK getting killed and to RFK getting killed. Because when JFK gets killed, RFK is there and he is there to remold the family around him and make them feel like we still have a pretty bright future. We're going to move forward. That's not there after he dies, right? Teddy Kennedy is kind of the family patriarch at this point and he tries.

This is not, Teddy will become a more capable and responsible person. He is not at this point, as we will talk about. and like, you know, to a little bit of like, like, how could he be? Like, what do you do here, right? Like, like, you have had two, the two patriarchs of the family and like a two or three, like a two or like, not two, like, but like within very short or it's like a four year period. It's very short period of time. Yeah.

Like, assassinated. Right. Like, at that point, you're like, is, are we all going to get assassinated? Like, what is, like, what is? If I'm Teddy, what I'm like, should we keep doing this? Should we maybe just like enjoy being rich? The family plan? What is?

Seems like this might have been a really bad plan. What do we? What are we doing? Yeah. One of the Kennedy cousins, who's in the compound of the family, later recalled De Horowitz and Collier for their book, it was so different from Jack's death. There had been a coming together. Uncle Bobby had seen to that.

In a strange way, we'd felt even more like Kennedys than ever. Proud it what Jack had been, determined that our time would come again. But once Uncle Bobby died, there was just this sense of splitting apart. RFK Jr. was only an occasional presence at the Kennedy compound in Hickory Hill at that point. Ethel, one of the way she reacts to RFK getting killed is she is kind of permanently angry at her sons, like forever. And in a way that's really hard to forgive and that must have been devastating to them. The youngest children and girls were, according to Collier and Horowitz, immune to her temper. She's not shitty to her girl. She's not kidding. She's not kidding.

She's the little kids. But she is really bad to Joe, Bobby Jr. and David, right? Quote, she told Joe he must be the man of the house now and allowed him to sit in his dead father's chair at the dinner table. But when he hit his younger sister, Carrie, for making noise, she gave him the infantile punishment of having to walk up and down the stairs a hundred times. Later, Joe went into the yard, and in a moment of tenderness, took the hands of his younger brothers and sisters and began to sing the battle him of the Republic, their father's favorite song. Meanwhile, Ethel kept saying to Bobby Jr. and David, get out of here, as if the house itself, with all the pictures of family triumphs, were a sanctuary they defiled with their presence. What you've got here is These kids are reacting to their uncle and dad Getting shot these boys by acting out

Joe who's the oldest is like Being kind of a bully He hits his younger siblings a lot You know he like tackles them be fine But like that's not abnormal It's not great it's certain something you get you want to deal with that behavior You don't want to ignore it but like you're not a bad person As a 12 year old boy something like that

Because like that's how you react That's an indicator that He's dealing with something and going through it Not that, like, he needs to be, like, the target of your ire and your, like, everything that you're feeling shouldn't be targeted at these kids. And Ethel's only response is you're disgracing the family, like, how fucking dare you get the hell out of here, right? That is her go-to parenting move for the boys. Bobby Jr. also acts out constantly. And his particular style, he's less violent, but he seems to think the best way for him to get attention.

And nobody's really got time to give attention to Bobby Jr., right? He has like servants and stuff. He gets like technically attention, but not from the people he needs it from, right? And he tries to get it by playing pranks. And he, this is. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like he would do.

Yeah. He's a pranker. And he does one of these, he plays a prank at his dad's memorial. So there's a neighbor and friend of the family, Philip Kirby, who's like this rich kid who lives nearby. He's part of the memorial service for RFK. And he recalls like before it starts, the priest gives him a bell to ring during the liturgy and the priest says, like, I'll touch you in the shoulder when it's time for you to ring it,

right? So you don't time it wrong. And Bobby starts tapping him randomly during the services a bit. So he rings the bell when there's not supposed to be any kind of music or noise. And like, Kirby, this is like the biggest funeral and national history, or at least since JFK, he is like weeping in tears because he has fucked this up and he looks back and he sees RFK Jr. Holding in laughter. Because it's a very little kid thing to do. It is also on the mean side. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, if you're, if you're a kid, you're not going to really be able to grasp. Right.

You're not a moral actor in the same way. Right. But, uh, but man, that sucks for that guy. Sorry, Philip. Oh, man. The pranks continued a week after his dad's funeral. David Kennedy, the younger of the Kennedy, the this generation Kennedy brothers has a birthday.

This is obviously a fragile time for everybody, the first birthday for one of RFK's sons after his death. Bobby Jr. decides the right thing to do is to poison everybody. And I'm going to read a quote from biographer Jerry Oppenheimer here. Bobby had spiked everyone's milk with a laxative, infuriated, his mother demanded, just leave home. Get out of my life. Choice.

I mean, things aren't going well. That is wild. It's very bad behavior to poison your family, you know? There's certainly a punishment that's now. We can always talk about what kind of punishment should parents. do. Get away with poisoning your family. You shouldn't get away with poisoning the family. But get out of my life. What a devastating thing to say to your child after his dad is set. Yeah. Right at that point, it's like, I mean, just let me get into politics and wait a few years.

And I will like. Fucking, he is, these boys are all abandonment issues, the guy. Like, that is, that is the Kennedy boys of this generation. Soon after, possibly to make up for the ruined party, Ethel flies the kids with Ted Kennedy. because again, he's around a lot. He's kind of in the sometimes trying to be a father. He's also very young. He's a party boy. He is not mature enough to be responsible. And like, really, it's kind of unreasonable to expect a man of that age to suddenly take

on the duties of being the head of this family of kids who aren't yours who belong to your murdered brother. That's a lot to ask of Ted. But he doesn't do a great job at it, right? He does seem to be trying very hard. Ethel takes them all on this chartered boat ride, right? And during this chartered boat trip, Ethel's moods. swung wildly.

And RFK Jr. is as usual pushing boundaries and fucking around with his siblings. Ethel grew furious at him and David and dragged them both below decks and beats them with a hairbrush. This is the first time something like this has happened. I don't think she had been physically violent with them before. It is a really, like, searing moment for RFK Jr. And for David.

Yeah, they remember it. Of course they do. Yeah. And again, you know, on Ethel's, side of things. It's not good to do this. I might say that like, yeah, you can't expect any kind of perfectly rational behavior from a woman in the situation, but this has a horrible impact on her kids. That's like not like, yeah, the beating. I think we've crossed the line from just saying. Is that is that? So wasn't it was the first time. Was it the last time? Like

it'd become a pattern after that? I don't think it's just like, yeah. I don't get the impression that she is a present enough parent for there to have been much many patterns at all other than she repeatedly tells them to leave, get out of here, you're not welcome at home. That is the big pattern. Is her saying, get out of here, you are no longer welcome at the family compound. You're no longer welcome. Like, Bobby's going to spend time, like, hiding out, like, camping and hiding and, like, outbuildings and stuff because he's not supposed to be there.

He spends a lot of his childhood just, like, living with other families who are kind of adjacent to the Kennedys. Yeah, it's messed up, right? Not going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. Ethel only expresses more and more frustration with her kids. after this. She exiles Bobby Jr.

back to a private school. This time, a new one, a place called Millbrook. And Millbrook is, you watched arrest of development, right? Obviously, you did. You know how, like, fucking Buster is, he went to that school? He's a Milford man. Yeah, Milford man. Not a seat nor heard.

Milford is a parody of Milbrook. Because this is the place where, like, not just the sons of the rich and famous are sent, but it's the sons that are having problems, right? You send him there to get disciplined and to get like straightened out, right? One teacher described it as, quote,

a place where the rich and famous would tuck their children away, right? If you're wondering what that was a reference to, it's a reference to Milbrook. RFK Jr. is just one of what would become a long line of rich boys with behavioral problems whose parents didn't want to deal with them full time. And Milbrook is also located very near the mansion

where Timothy Leary kept all of his acid and his friends on acid. And drugs are not hard to come by for Milbrook kids. And it's this unique situation of people don't really know about drugs. There's like a vague understanding of like maybe of marijuana, but even then that's not very visible. And like LSD is so fucking new. And so adults don't really know.

They just notice like, wow, these kids are behaving really weird. And they don't really notice that like, yeah, Bobby Kennedy is just always fucking on drugs now. Like from this point forward, he is always on drugs, you know? And it's funny because it seems like at this point mostly it's pot, Oppenheimer, because he's going to wind up.

up addicted to heroin. Oppenheimer treats pot like heroin and his biography of Bobby where he's like, and he was getting, uh, every day. And it was like, yeah, he's like 15, you know, like I know, like half of the people I know. I'm not saying you should, you shouldn't do drugs until you're older kids. Wait a little bit. You're brain developed and stuff and all that. I want to say 90 plus percent of people who smoke pot when they're 16, 15, 17, like, it's

fine, you know. You'll be okay. You'll be okay. People generally are. Bobby is not, though. I will say that. But I don't know that I'm going to blame the drugs. I think the drugs are more a symptom of this kid's disastrous early life.

Being a Kennedy and having just lost his dad, none of the adults at Millbrook seem to have known how to handle him. Like, how do we discipline this kid? We're kind of now marketing a lot on the fact that a Kennedy goes here. It's kind of a selling point to other rich families. So like, there's no, he kind of comes and goes as he pleases. And he spends most of. his free time, getting fucked up or hunting small animals with his hawk, Morgan Lafay.

His primary hobby is taking acid and going hawking. Like, hunting with his hawk. So he got to bring his hawk. He does get to bring his hawk. His hawk is with him all the time. It is always in the room. People who live with him as like roommates at these boarding schools say that there are just birds shitting everywhere all the time.

Like if you are living with Bobby Kennedy, there is bird shit everywhere constantly because he is never far from his fucking birds. Oh, weird guy. He loves this. What a weird guy. During this period of time, there is one adult who is a consistent presence in RFK Jr's life. And it's a guy named Limbillings. And we will talk about old limb.

But first, Cody, speaking of billings, get your billings from the companies that support our podcast by sending them your money. Yeah, I'm getting my money out right now. Yeah, lim those billings on over to them, you know? Lim him out. Limit to win it. Anyway, we're done. Here's ads. So, Lim Billings was a former New York ad executive who had been very deep friends.

He's like JFK's oldest friend and like so close that Joe Kennedy, who is not like the most emotional man in the world, considers Lim basically part of the family, right? He has a house or he has a room at the Kennedy compound, right? He's that close with the family. And he is also gay. He is in love with JFK. there are a lot of rumors that swirl around whether or not they had any kind of physical relationship. I don't actually think there's any evidence of it.

It seems like the kind of thing that was not uncommon with a lot of particularly very prominent gaming back then were like, I am in love with this person and my love takes the form since there's no kind of relationship that's possible. Maybe, you know, obviously, probably not actually interested in reciprocating it that way. But I become basically like their closest confidant. I'm always watching out for them. I'm the guy who is like. Yeah, constant companion.

Constant companion. My buddy. My buddy who, yeah. Yeah. There's a movie I like to talk about a lot, if dot, dot, dot, which is the first Malcolm McDowell movie. And it's a movie about British. So not the imaginary friends movie from the twisted mind of John Krasinski? No.

That's called if as well. That's also called if. Much worse movie. This if is an absolutely like incredible piece of cinema that everyone should watch. It is about a British boarding school. It's one of my favorite films. and McDowell has said later that like, yeah, we didn't, of the director, I didn't know at the time that he was gay, but now I can see that he was. And his way of like kind of making love to me was the way that he shot me, right, when he was filming me, you know?

I think about that when I think of limb-billings, right? Yeah. Yeah. Where, yeah, you just have this intense, like, attraction and admiration, but like, you can't express it in the way you want to. So you find more, like, socially acceptable ways to do that. Exactly. Exactly. And that's kind of limb.

And Lim is obviously absolutely shattered by the JFK assassination, right? This destroys him as a person. He starts drinking heavily. He's never a really functional adult, right, after this point. Now, depending on who you read, opinions on Limb vary. Jerry Oppenheimer, who published the 2015 biography of RFK Jr., is incredibly homophobic. And I kept waiting for there to be like some evidence that Lim had abused RFK Jr. I've done something really bad.

But like, he really just seems to want us to be shocked by the fact that, Lim was gay and see that as inherently sinister? He also alleges that Lim enabled Bobby's drug use. From what I have read in other sources, I kind of think it was the opposite. Lim is never fully functional after JFK dies. He becomes an alcoholic. And when RFK Jr. starts doing drugs, Lim as the adult in the situation, doesn't stop him.

And he should have. Does not attempt to limit his access to drugs at all. But he starts doing them. And I don't think he's pushing RFK Jr. I think he is just like, yeah, sure, why the fuck not? Right. Right. Now, the fact that Lim is gay and in love with Jack with JFK shouldn't be totally dismissed, though.

Not because he abused Bobby, but because I think he may have put added pressure on him to follow his uncle Jack. There's an allegation that I think probably does have legs that he is kind of trying to groom Bobby into being like JFK. And kind of for a sweet reason of he like he wants his dead best friend back. Right. You know? Like it's a very. Yeah. Like the cloning things.

Right. Right. It's got to exist again. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very sad story, but not one that I think I don't see him as like a villain. Now, obviously, he's not the best influence. Right. To be the one adult in Bobby's life. Yeah, this seems unhealthy at best. Yeah, but it's unhealthy because everyone is just caught in this fucking poison matrix that is the Kennedy family legacy, right?

In the book after Camelot, Bobby told author Jay Randy, Tara Borrelli, quote, in many ways, Lim was a father to me, and he was the best friend I will ever have. I have also read interviews with RFK Jr.'s brothers, I think with David, where David was like, yeah, I was kind of jealous of Bobby because, like, none of us had any male authority figure, any male adults, male adults interested in us after dad died, right? He got Lim and he was the only one, right, as opposed to what Oppenheimer said of him being the sinister force that like, well, at least RFK Jr. had somebody.

Had some, right? Whether it's a role model or just some sort of guardian, some sort of guidance, some sort of, yeah. Yeah. And as a, as a spoiler, David's story is going to end a lot faster and a lot worse than RFK Jr. stuff.

So maybe Lim having something kept him from spinning out as much. I don't know. Yeah. That said, it is beyond arguing that Lim is not what most people would call a responsible guardian. That said, any kind of normal childhood for Bobby was completely off the table at this point.

Lim after RFK dies, he's on Safari when JFK dies, and after RFK gets killed, Lim takes him on a sorry your dad died safari? Maybe we'll get you another turtle, who knows? Yeah, get you another turtle. I've spent my time expressing issues with Oppenheimer's biography, but I do think his description of this trip, this second death safari, confase how damned weird it was. With professional 35 millimeter cameras, Bobby and Billings documented their African adventure, which also included a rafting trip to Egypt's Valley of the Kings,

and oddly a VIP visit to a nightclub to watch the gyrations of a bevy of belly dancers, hosted by members of the Egyptian Supreme Court, an evening of salacious interest more to the hormonal adolescent than to his gay, middle-aged saparone. The safari photos became quite lucrative because at that time, in the wake of the latest Kennedy tragedy, anything a Camelot air did became front-page media father. Aware of the demand, Billings brokered a deal with Life magazine

for an interview about their adventure and for the photos. The questionable story was put out that young Bobby wanted to use the money to build a memorial to his father in the Serengeti National Park. And yeah, the pictures sell for a lot of money. He gets to watch what sounds like almost a strip tease put on by the Egyptian Supreme Court. You know, like some burlesque sort of situation. Just a baffling childhood. Yeah. If you've met members of the Egyptian Supreme Court, you have an odd childhood.

Yeah, it's just like this weird, like Westerosy sort of like. trip celebration morning like thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is very Game of Thrones in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. So when they get back home from this very strange safari,

Bobby continues doing shitloads of drugs and most consequentially introducing his brothers to drugs. And he does not limit himself to just dosing them. One of the people who sold acid to Bobby was a neighbor kit, John Kelly, who recalled that Bobby fed doses of acid to his parakeet. he soon expanded to other drugs like mescaline, which he pushed his younger brother David to try. David was scared. David did not want to experiment with drugs with psychedelics.

You know, it certainly wasn't ready as soon as Bobby was, but Bobby basically like bullies him, kind of, until he takes a shitload of mescaline. And David is a young boy, too young to be doing shitloads of mescalin, who has lost his dad and is traumatized, and that can make a trip not. He has a bad time of it, right? And Kelly recalls that Bobby's instinct seems to be to increase his younger, to fuck with his younger brother, right? When David, so David hallucinates that Bobby's laying like, or standing up against like a bush or something and there's leaves pressing against him. And David hallucinates that the leaves are sharp and he's like, Bobby, get away, they'll cut you. And Bobby laughs and he plunges into the leaves and then pretends he's been impaled and fakes his own death. And this prompts David to cry, you're dying just like daddy.

Oh, God. Oh, boy. Oh, God. Oh, no. That's so bad. Oh, Bobby. That's like so bad. Like being on that drug and, oh, he thought that was really happening.

Oh, that's, uh. And guess which Kennedy is going to wind up dying of a drug overdose. That's such a fucked up prank. Yeah. Ding, ding, David. Yeah. God. Real bad stuff.

Very bad behavior. Don't do that. To, like, lean into people. To pretend that you are. Especially after your dad gets assassinated. But like to pretend that it, oh my God, it's so fucked up. Yeah. One of the weird thing, you know how America has kind of processed 9-11 eventually by making a shitload of 9-11 jokes?

Yeah. Bobby and his generation of Kennedys processed the assassinations by making a lot of dead Kennedy jokes. Yeah. Like more, even more than the band, the dead Kennedys dead. I don't know if they actually ever made jokes better. It's just the name of the band. Anyway, the closest the Kennedy's had to an era parent was Ted Kennedy, who is a senator, who becomes a senator, and is, you know, somebody do, people do still think, you know, in the wake of RFK's death, hey, he could be the president, you know, he's pretty good looking, smart. He's obviously starting to have success in politics. But within a year of RFK's demise, Ted is involved in the infamous chappaquitic incident, which fucking Republicans would not stop talking about. And it is a pretty bad situation. He is probably drunk. He drives off of a bridge. He abandons the crash afterwards and he abandons his 28-year-old passenger

Mary Jo Kopechnie who drowns, right? You know, the best case scenario is that Ted is so drunk that he's not really aware of what he's doing. I guess some people will argue it was just an accident, but he leaves afterwards and he like goes to sleep and it's like, it's bad. He does not, he does a bad thing. He does a bad thing. I will say. Yeah. Now, this is again, like, I don't know how you want to, we're not going to dissect fucking chapiquetic. God, you can find so much of that if you really want to. What matters to us today is that it more or less punctures Ted's shot at the presidency, right? That is not really going to be in the car. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of took the steam out of that. Now, you could argue, and I think this is the strongest argument, that he is probably

the best politician in terms of technical skill of any of his generation of the Kennedys, right? Some of this is just because he's alive long enough to really have a full political career. But he's a very influential man in Congress. He winds up being kind of like arguably most influential Democrat in Congress for a significant period of time. And that's, you know, a lot for a family for most people. But that is a far cry from the vision Joe Kennedy had for his family. And even further from the rosy image of Camelot perpetuated in the public memory. Talk about a Kennedy curse had been a thing for about as long as anyone in the family.

could remember. But once RFK died, it went from something that had been kind of a half-joke sort of deal to something the upcoming generation felt deep within their bones as destiny. Even Joe Kennedy, the man whose ambition had started this all, seemed to feel a sense of woe at what he now saw coming for his grandchildren. Chris Lofford, JFK's nephew, later claimed, sometimes grandpa would look at us as if he wanted to say something. His mouth would move sort of convulsively, as if some words were trying to get out, then this cloudy look would come over his eyes, and he'd slouched down into his wheelchair, and the attendant would wheel him off. And that in the, that biography, maybe it was just he, you know, he was stroking out. He couldn't communicate. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of

things. Maybe it's that he's like, maybe he regretted like, oh, I may have led my entire family to calamity. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Sorry for the pressure that I, yeah, created for you that led to all of this. All of these terrible, terrible things. And he does, he lives, you know, it's one of those things like, I don't know if Joe Kennedy made a deal with the devil or some sort of like house of usher ass cosmic evil, right, to have his success and then have it all ripped away when his children die at the last moment of his life. But that's kind of what happens, right? He lives long enough to see Chappaquitic and then he fucking drops right after that, you know? Yeah, he made some sort of deal and it led to the curse. It led to the curse.

part of it was you got to kind of you got to watch, you got to watch something of it. Yeah. But then you're done. And look, look, he made some good calls, you know, making Mark Hamel the family lawyer. Great move. It's house of usher.

Perfect. Good show. Watch it. Oh, my God. It's an incredible Mark Campbell performance. Yeah? Yeah. Really good show.

Really good show. Everyone else is playing essentially like a Poe character. And Mark Hamill is playing like a Lovecraft protagonist. Okay. It's quite good. That's interesting. All right. Yeah.

I enjoyed it a lot. So I will say, you know, you've got that one picture from the Collier and Horowitz book where Grandpa maybe started to regret some of his decisions. In his biography of RFK Jr. Oppenheimer also talks to a significant number of people who are around the family and in the family at this point paints a darker picture of what Joe mostly tried to pass on to his grandchildren. His twin family mantras were Kennedys don't cry and Kennedys don't complain, which is whatever else, not going to help you process everything that's happened to them.

If Kennedy's do die, you might want those other two things to actually work through that. They might need to cry. Maybe some complaints are warranted. Yeah. But he does live long enough to see his blessings turn into curses. His three most prominent sons dead because Joe died a while ago. His remaining son disgraced and the vast entitled brood that he had helped create turn into a dynasty, hurtling inevitably towards doom when he finally passed on November 18, 1969.

Bobby, by this point, seemed to show less inclination to follow his dad into politics and decidedly more of a bent to being a, we might call like a mild gangster, you know, like a kind of adorable child gangster, because he has, in this period, formed a street gang, focused around his street game made up entirely of Kennedys and their friends who are also very rich kids from this incredibly rich neighborhood with a family compound is located. They call themselves the Hyannis Port Terrors, the HPTs, as we'll call them. The assumptions. The assumptions. So Bobby Kennedy's got a street gang, and initially it's just his older brother Joe, who's 17, you know, he's 15, and his brother David, he's 14. But a bunch of cousins and neighbors join in, and they'll all dress in black and they'll paint their faces with grease.

And first off, you know what, kudos guys to painting to being rich white kids who paint your faces with grease and aren't doing black face, you know? They were just trying to hide in the night as they were so close. Yeah. It's like, well, you know, you're. Woo! We dodged. Kennedy families isn't great at dodging bullets, but they did dodge one.

That one. Yeah. Thank goodness for that difference in motivation to have your face in Greece. God. Their motivation is they're doing petty vans. I imagine some of them were also doing it. They might have been. Might have been.

Might have been. A little treat for them, you know, a little extra. I can't prove they weren't. Yeah, exactly. I can't, I can't prove a little. Justin Trudeau energy wasn't present there, right? Some of them. A scoge, a drop of it, a dollop.

Statistically. One former member of the Hyannis Port Terror's later claimed to the author of the book After Camelot, quote, We'd shoot off firecrackers, deflate people's tires, stick potatoes in the exhaust pipes of cars, turn over trash cans, mess around with girls, all sorts of mischief. After we did our bit, Ethel would get called, I don't know what mess around with girls means in this context. In the context of, like, vandalism and violence.

making out with them. They could be stealing their underwear. There could be, there's a lot of, mess around with. A lot of room for that to be ugly. It's an odd item to include on that list. Yeah.

I, if I'm the, after Camelot author, I'm immediately like, wait a second, wait a second. Let's talk about the messing around part. Just a few more words about that one.

I'm going to continue the quote from this terror member. After we did our bit, Ethel would get calls from everyone in town complaining about it. At first, she used to say, my kids were home asleep last night. I don't know what you're talking about. But one night, she waited up, and sure enough, she caught me, Bobby and David, jumping out of one of the second floor windows of her home. She chased us all over the compound in the middle of the night in her nightgown and bare feet,

finally losing us somewhere on the stretch of beach. Now, one of the real through lines in all these Kennedy kids stories is that the adults have very little power in these relationships. And it's not because they're afraid to discipline their kids. sometimes when they're around, they discipline them very severely. It's that they're just not there, right? And they're not there in large part because they have all of these as the Kennedys. They've got this constant web of social, political, business out, fundraisers,

all sorts of shit that they have to do because of who their family is. And they're also on vacation, a lot, they're traveling. They don't always want their kids around, and they're able to not have their kids around, right? Half of the brood are away at boarding schools at any given time, and the kids at boarding schools have access. to money and thus drugs, but not any real supervision. Maybe the monk who teaches English

will take an interest in them, but like that's some random monk. He doesn't have a lot of power in this relationship either, you know? And at a certain point, after like a lot of the reaction from, like, her specifically, I feel like it's just not going to be effective no matter what, where it's like, okay, you're being this horrible to

your small children. Yeah. We don't really care for that approval or have like that sense of like, oh, we don't want to upset, you know, the adults. Right. Yeah. Welcome. Now, another constant through line is, as I mentioned earlier, this sense of gallows humor

that pervades the kids as a result of the cloud of death that seemed to hang over their family. And I think the most telling passage from this period comes from. I'm going to read a passage from the book after Camelot describing this. One prank had the boys playing in busy hyenas port tourist traffic, only to have one kid fall to the ground while another smacked the back of a car making a loud noise. Then they would all gather around their fallen chum and shout hysterical sentiments at the driver, such as, you've just killed another Kennedy. That's...

When panicked people came to the aid of the young Kennedy, sprawled in the middle of the road, the boys would milk it for all it was worth by trying to get the boy to move his legs. And then saying it looked as if he'd been paralyzed, but then the fallen Kennedy would suddenly stand up and walk away. At that, the other boys would proclaim, look, it's a Kennedy miracle. and then race off. My God. I got to say that kind of rules. That's exactly what you would do if you were a kid and the Kennedy and all that stuff. Of course.

You killed another Kennedy. It's such a funny thing. It's incredibly funny. It's amazingly funny. Like horrific thing, the acid trip, what Bobby did. Horrific. That's funny. That's really funny.

That's just actually very good comedy. You killed another Kennedy. I'll go so far as to say it, that might actually even be an example of like healthy processing of all of this, right? Poor line, you're taking, to some extent, you're taking some ownership of this terrible thing that happened to your family, right?

And maybe that does help a little bit. And you're also taking you, you're also like very aware of like the world's, like eyes on you and opinion of others too. And you're kind of taking agency as opposed to just being subjected to it. you're taking agency on it and like using it for your own laughter. Entertainment.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I kind of see it as the healthiest thing that anyone has done in this story. It's not the least. It's definitely towards the top in this story of like healthy reactions. Yeah. And again, just very good comedy. It's a Kennedy miracle.

It's a Kennedy miracle. That's a good line. Back at Millbrook, Bobby cultivated A, by this point, probably understandable. reputation for being out of control and very odd. Like any kid, he had folks who got along with him and people who thought he was a dick. You can find people being like, yeah, he was like the bully of the school. You can find people being like, yeah, he was like kind of a chill dude. He was a little bit of a loner and outsider.

I'm not, I wasn't around, right? I'm just going to say everyone does agree about one thing, which is that he was really specifically weird about his hawk and dead animals. Yeah, I was going to say, like his dorm smelled like bird shit. Yep. That was the thing everybody thought. Boy, Cody, it's about to get a lot weirder. But first, it's about to be ads.

Oh, okay. We're back. Cody, you had a follow-up question. What do you mean by his relationship with dead animals? Great question, Cody. Great question. Okay. So let's go back to the undeniable reality that I don't know, like a month or two,

time flat circle right now. But it became public knowledge that RFK Jr., serious third, party presidential candidate with like a possibly historic chunk of the vote, certainly looked like that at that point in the election, had part of his brain eaten by a worm that got in there, presumably for some weird meat he ate, and then died after eating part of his brain, right? That's the claim. That's the claim. And the claim came out during divorce proceedings, right?

And this is part of RFK trying to basically argue his alimony should be amended in light of his disability, right? And as a result of that aspect of it, I have seen people doubting was he just lying. You know, maybe there was no worm. He was bullshitting like, and I'm going to say this, a survey of his childhood makes me feel, yeah, that brain worm was probably real. Probably had it. This is the story that we're about to tell that makes me feel that way. So as an adult, one of the sources we have on Bobby's life is this book called The Riverkeepers, which he co-writes, I think.

And it's related to he works for an environmental charity called the Riverkeepers. And his book on that includes a deeply sanitized and kind of short version of his own backstory. And one of the things he talks about is his time at Millbrook that he spent with what he calls an informal falconry program. And this is the very sanitized version of how that is falconry at Millbrook went. In the autumn, we captured and trained kestrels, red tails, and immature passage hawks on their first migration. I've caught upwards of 50 hawks a day, squatting atop a ridge line on Shunamunk Mountain in the Hudson Valley in autumn. We flew wild red tails, falcons, and goshocks, and pioneered many of the game hawking techniques still used by American falconers. We talked about hawks every spare moment.

So maybe that's all true. It can coexist with what I'm about to read next. But Jerry Oppenheimer, biographer, talks to one of Bobby's child falconry buddies, who describes him very differently and in a much less camera-friendly manner. Mill Brooks, and this is his falconry buddy talking years later, Milbrook's motto was non-cibi-said kunzis, Latin for not for oneself but for all. Everyone had to participate in required community service, whether it be working in the school post office, washing dishes, performing grounds maintenance, or handling the zoo's inhabitants. Bobby had chosen the latter, but the way he described his falcon and burning interest in his

book was not the way Beauregard, who is the, that's the kid telling the story, who later went on to teach ornithology at the University of North Carolina, remembered. To Beauregard, who was one of the leaders out of the falconry group at Milbrook, Bobby's pursuit of the sport was more like a scene out of a horror movie. Myself and a couple of others had our hawks, and we'd go out in the countryside hunting rabbits and squirrels. But one of the reasons why I didn't spend much time with Bobby was his idea of falconry. Next to the school, there was a cow pit where the local dairy farmers threw their dead cows,

and it was full of rats. Bobby would take his hawk and go hunting rats in the midst of the rotting cow carcasses. And he sort of reveled in how off the wall that was. Now, Beauregard expressed disgust at Bobby for wanting to be in such a disgusting environment. Wanting to go hunts rats in this rotting cow carcass graveyard rather than going to like a well-maintained chunk of the woods and doing the thing that you would assume is a pleasant part. Right. Yeah. Right.

And one gets the feeling, I think his disgust comes from this is something Bobby did specifically to freak out preppy or rich kids like Beauregard, right? You know, he is also a rich kid, but he is not preppy and he wants to kind of freak the normies, right? He's a little freak. He's also, no one goes to the rotting corpse pit because it's a rotting

corpse pit so he can get high there. He can do drugs. He can take acid. He spends a lot of time hunting rats and taking acid at a fucking pit of bloated cow carcasses. That is a big chunk of Bobby Jr.'s Childhood. And that's a little

chunk of Bobby's brain that's going to go from that. Right. Yeah. One of the kids who visited the pit with Bobby, mainly because Bobby had drugs and he wanted to score them, was the son of a Republican horse trainer, Jamie Fanning. And Jamie Fanning gives us this description of RFK Jr.

and his late teens on the cusp of adulthood, and it is the most incredible description I have read of a subject for these episodes. I still to this day see him standing there in his black necktie that he wore every day over a blue Oxford Brooks Brothers shirt and a beat-up tweed jacket and wearing the wildest bell bottoms that were purple with day glow green stripes like he was some soul band guy and in his funky boots and there he was hunting rats out of that pile of dead sheep and cow carcasses.

Yeah, I bet his boots were funky. What an amazing, amazing paragraph. Unwell. Cows and sheep. Cows and sheep. Yeah, yeah. So debate in the sources was it just thousands of rotting cow carcasses? Were there sheep involved? Either way, Bobby loves carcasses. Apparently, he loves being around them.

He really does. He seems to be comforted by death. So weird. I don't know. And it's fanning. I think this description from fanning is the most accurate of some competing descriptions of child RFK Jr. Because he's an edgy kid. He has been traumatized by some seriously dark shit.

He has a deranged and unhealthy family life. He's got infinite money, but only one adult who cares about him, and that adult is not doing it in the healthiest way. And he develops this edge. Maybe part of it is just like surrounding yourself with death, kind of like in the sense that maybe a goth would later because there's been so much in your life, but also some of it's freaking out people

is maybe the only way you know to get attention, right? Yeah, attention and people at a distance. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Fanning would continue. He was such an edgy kid. that that thing, the cow carcasses thing, as bizarre as it was to be over there,

hunting these rats out of this pile of dead carcasses, was almost normal for him. It was a pretty dark, grim time. He was miserable and he was angry. It only got worse with the drugs. And most of the sources we have on early RFK life are self-serving in some nature, right? Everybody's got an agenda.

These are the Kennedys. But I think fanning has probably got it right. Yeah. That just feels like a person to me. Yeah. Like an actual human being. dealt with all these things we've talked about and like the little

the little stories of him growing up and like you know like being a little a little fucker right little piece of shit right yeah a little fucking asshole trying to cause trouble and then gets darker and darker and he's gonna his humor's gonna get darker and darker his like environment he's gonna want to be yeah that I don't know yeah and the brainworm

and the brainworm the brainworm doesn't help now heroin what else what else what else also doesn't help, Cody, is heroin, which makes it way into his drug rotation. And look, we can talk about the potential benefits of psychedelics. I don't know anybody who's like improve their life problems unless those problems are just, I am dying of horrible pain with heroin. That's really the one thing it's good for, you know? There's like, oh, I took mushrooms and like, I saw something today or yesterday of like 80%

people take mushrooms, like they can quit smoking easily. Yeah. And it's literally just because they're like, oh, that's stupid. Like they have the thought of like I shouldn't do that and they don't Yeah it has intense potential sure yeah like oh I took mushrooms I stopped smoking It's like oh I took heroin I stopped smoking because I died Yeah or like heroin will help you and again one very it's great as a painkiller But that's only useful in certain situations and Bobby

Hero is something you save to the end It's great as a painkiller but it it works very well as an emotional pain killer But not in a way that helps the problem right if you actually if you have like you had your leg blown off by a mine. Yeah, some heroin might be the right thing for you in the moment, right? That's probably real good to get some heroin in there. If you are mourning your dad and your uncle and the collapse of your family and all of the pressure you're under the fact that your mom doesn't love you, heroin's probably not going to help. Yeah, the spotlight and like all the everything. Yeah. Now, that said, despite the fact that he is now, heroin is in the mix,

it's pot that's going to get Bobby in his first real trouble. He was arrested for the first time in Barnsdale, Massachusetts for marijuana possession at age 16. Now, one of the fun parts of the RFK Jr. story is that he always has this endearingly tense relationship with the cops. I don't think he likes the police, at least not as a young man. One story Oppenheimer tells is of RFK Jr. and the terrors, they're sticking potatoes into gas pipes one night and they get caught by a cop and everyone runs away. And the only one who can't escape is Bobby Shriver, who is his cousin. Bobby Jr., is kind of something in his favor, even though he's escaped, goes back to confront the cop to try and run. rescue his cousin, you know, which does say something about it. And here's how Oppenheimer describes it.

Seeing that his cousin was in the clutches of a policeman, Bobby defiantly reappeared from his hiding place and sauntered up to them. What have you got in there? The policeman asked, noting that Bobby had his hand inside his coat. I have a hawk and he's trained to kill cops, Bobby answered. You're lying, the policeman said, but Bobby kept advancing towards him until they were only inches apart whereupon he pulled the hawk out and shoved the raptor's beak into the face of the cop who jumped back with a hand on his gun i have a hawk and he's trained to kill cops i swear that's really cool he's still got some bangers like despite it all that may be your part of the cop you're lying it's like you want to find out my guy and it's such a only someone who has grown up in that

degree of privilege who would like in that situation with a cop shove a hawk in His face. And like, bold. More power to you, buddy. You're the only guy who's ever been in that situation. Yeah. And I'm glad you did it. You might not be the only guy who's ever shouted.

Like, I've got a hawk. Yeah, yeah. But you're the only one that did. You're the only one who did and lived, right? Yeah. There's a dead hawker out there. God. Wow.

What a tale. Thank you for that. Anyway, Bobby's arrest was big news. You know, the media. circus lights up around it, yada, yada, yada. And he and his cousin, he's arrested with Bobby Shriver for pot possession. This is different from the hawk thing. They go before a juvenile court judge, and they get a slap on the wrist, right?

You know, they get a punishment. It's not all that serious. Yeah, the campus is funny. Really, the worst thing about it is the media thing around it. And Bobby had actually been expelled from Milbrook a few weeks earlier because of his drug use, because the leadership at the school was really mostly worried that he was going to OD on the property. And they were like, you know what's not going to be good for this school's continuing to have people enrolled here? Another dead Kennedy.

Like, get him out of here, right? And after he gets arrested, they start to claim basically he got kicked out of the school because of that, right? You know, because they don't want to say we did it for this reason, right? Nobody really wants to. It's best if it kind of comes down to being part of the arrest. The family backlash against Bobby is intense and utterly impotent at the same time. Ethel told her son, I'm throwing you out of the family. But no effort was made to stop Bobby, who is at this point 16 years old from taking $600

out of his savings account, buying a used Ford Falcon and driving across the country with two friends. He sells the car when they get to Fresno, and he and one friend continue on, hopping trains and living with homeless people until they wash up in Texas. For months, Bobby Kennedy is completely out of touch with any adult but occasionally limb billings. And Bobby would later recall this is one of the happiest times of his youth. Quote, I was writing around with bums. It was good. I could be one of them and not a Kennedy. And like, if you want an idea of how toxic being a Kennedy is, his fondest childhood memory is being

homeless. Yeah. Like willingly homeless, right? Home was on the run. Yeah, basically. Like, but like, yeah. Hiding. Because we're all, we're all equally filthy, you know, at this point. You know, we're not bathing. We're not changing our clothes. Like, we look the same that they do. And they just kind of treat me as one of them. Nobody knows who I am. Yeah, it says a lot. I mean, again, didn't have a chance. Didn't, never had a chance.

He is next sent when he gets back from this road trip, train hopping trip to a less reputable boarding school in the woods that's like, this is where you send the real problem kids. It's near Boston. He continues to do drugs while he's there, and he develops a notable reputation as not a racist. He is very Oppenheimer quotes. And Oppenheimer quotes was like, wow, a white guy that black people,

like, right? But he does quote several black students at this school who were like militant activists, like kind of Black Panther adjacent in the day and were like, yeah, Bobby was actually really cool. Like we liked hanging out with Bobby. Like he didn't, no issues with Bobby. Was clearly not a racist person. Yeah, clearly not racist. So we'll give him that here too. Bobby Kennedy Jr. graduated from this last boarding school in June of 1972. He was now an adult. You will not be surprised to hear that his grades were not impressive. His extracurriculars at this point are basically just drugs and hanging out next to a cavern of rotting meat with my hawk. None of this mattered to the Harvard admissions board.

RFK Jr. was a legacy. His family had money and, hey, with a Kennedy, you never know. They could wind up congressman or president. So you might as well get that Harvard stank on him, right? Sure. And that's where Bobby's going to spend the mid-70s studying and getting real into heroin. And we will talk about that in part three. But for now, for this week, Cody,

We're done with RFK Jr. How are you feeling? Where are we on the boy at this point? You know, still some mixed in the sense that like, sorry, Bobby. Sorry. I get it. Yeah. But you got to get it together also.

Yeah. The rotting meat thing is so like. Gross. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm very curious about where that thread leads. Yeah. Because you don't stop there.

Like, that's not, like, probably the most fucked up thing you're going to be doing. In relation to dead animal carcasses? I don't know. Yeah. I'm going to think about the hawk a lot. The hawk is a real, like, that's a fascinating. It's fascinating. Yeah.

He doesn't talk about his hawk. My hawk's trained to kill cops. You're lying. That's amazing. His cop fighting hawk. That's such a good life. There's some really, he definitely had at one point, maybe he's lost it now, but he had at one point some of that Kennedy charisma because that and the whole, you've just killed it.

You just killed the Kennedy so good. It's a Kennedy miracle. It's incredibly funny. I've got a hawk and it kills cops. Yeah. All. All beggars. Yeah.

But, you know, the other stuff. Yeah. Good luck to him. It turns out, it doesn't turn out great, Cody. Oh, it doesn't turn out great. Oh, well. I can still say good luck. Yeah, exactly.

Good luck and good night. Cody, plugables. Hi. Sure. Hi. Hi. Hello. Hi.

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