Behind the Bastards - Part Two: We Can't Put This Guy's Name In The Title But Trust Us, He Sucks

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

Robert and Garrison conclude the story of the mercenary hacking mogul who we, again, cannot name in the description of this episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi everyone, I'm Paul Nacko and I'm Skip Bronson. And what happens when two old friends take their decades of experience in the business and entertainment roles and sit down with our buddies? You get Our Way, a brand new show from iHeart Podcast where we chop it up with our pals about everything under the sun. This is Our Podcast and we're going to do it Our Way. Listen to Our Way on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. is called Mal Evans with Ron Roddy and he was coming back on the plane and he said, will you pass the salt and pepper? And I miss her. I said, what? Sergeant Pepper. Listen to season 2 of McCartney A Life in Lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Dana Schwartz. You may know my voice from Noble Blood, Haley Wood, or or wherever you get your podcasts. these Canadian cops trying to solve this mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set. Listen to very special episodes on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Coulson media. Why, Sophie, why would you ever go to to buy a throw pillow? That is so sad, Sophie.

You need to reexamine your choices. You're driving to buy a pillow. Yeah, I really... To buy a pillow? Okay, I have a specific grief on this because this store, I don't like to order things from them because when they send things, they pack it really well so it doesn't get ruined.

But the amount of packaging is just too much for me to handle. Like, I get really upset. It really upsets me. You're gonna spend more on emissions driving to... I know, but then I won't have to like, deal with the packaging and that somehow that's better for me. You have to set some hard boundaries.

Like for me, I'm not gonna go to Marietta. It's not gonna happen. I simply refuse to go to Marietta. You just have to have certain rules for where you live. Yeah. It's a no-go zone. No-go zone. Like when I lived in LA, I never went more than about a mile and a half away from my house

because there was nothing else in the city that I needed. Everything that I needed was within a mile and a half of Culver City and going anywhere else is haram. But I really need this throw pillow and I really don't want to order it because they're going to send it in one of those jumbo boxes with a million unnecessary packing things in it and it's going to mess up whatever fucked up thing in my brain doesn't like that. Yeah.

Well. I wish I could say that when I lived in Texas, I never went to Waco, but the truth is I had to go to Waco a tragic number of times. I spent a considerable amount of time in Waco. Like a heartbreaking amount to Waco, but the truth is I had to go to Waco a tragic number of times. I spent a considerable amount of time at Waco. Like a heartbreaking amount of Waco. See, I've only ever ended up in by accident. This would be the first time I'm intentionally driving there, which I do see your point.

I have a hat from Waco just over there next to all my bulletproof gear. I like that we've been talking for almost two minutes now. Hi, Daniel. Yeah. Now the problem, Garrison, with Waco is that your bulletproof gear will not protect you from the traditional Waco threat model. Should we do this podcast? Being burnt alive with a bunch of kids in a bit. Yes, OK, probably. I think the listeners can put in, in the bleep spot,

whatever town they don't like driving to, and then that will make them feel more connected to us. My hatred of Marietta Georgia Georgia is completely justified. I was not questioning your hatred of Marietta, Georgia No, did I question Sophie's hatred of? I don't I don't you should you should I've only ever Accidentally been there. I've never intentionally driven there. So I don't have a formed opinion yet. Now, if it was California and you were like, hey, drive to the Inland Empire,

I would rather do many horrible things. Yeah, you can do all those horrible things in the Inland Empire. See, I have to defend the Inland Empire because it gave us a fantastic movie. So, you know. Yeah, that's why I can't enjoy that David Lynch movie. It makes me think too much of the of the inland empire, which is

disorienting, dissociating, horrible, just a nightmare of a place. Exactly like the movie. It's a perfect, it's a perfect piece of art. I just, I just, I'm so proud of you, Gar, for only waiting till the second episode to talk about David Lynch. That was, you didn't get a Lynch reference in part one. That's what I call self-control. second episode to talk about David Lynch. That was your, you didn't get a Lynch reference in part one. That's what I call self-control. And I'm so proud of you. Speaking of self-control, this is Behind the Bastards.

A podcast with no self-control. Yeah, a podcast hosted by one Robert Evans. Our guest today is Garrison Davis, host of It Can Happen Here. Wow, thanks for doing my job for me. So do you want to just take the rest of the script and I can just kind of bash? I'm gonna have a nice walk

and think about the one time I had to go to bash. I'm gonna have a nice walk and think about the one time I had to go to the Inland Empire, what a nightmare. Oh no, and you'll never, because if you get too deep in that, I'll never see you again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because that movie is three hours long. It's just, it is quite, quite the thing to get through.

I can't watch the David Lynch Inland Empire for the same reason my grandfather couldn't watch Saving Private Ryan. Like it just reminded me too much of a traumatic moment from my life. It's been four hours stuck in fucking traffic. When I first saw Inland Empire, I saw it in theaters and the woman sitting next to me cried for the last 30 minutes of the movie with her hands covering her face. And I'm guessing that's the average

inland empire experience in California. Yeah, no, that's what it's like trying to get back to the west side from there at 3.30 p.m. in the afternoon. You can't get back to the west side at 3.30 p.m. No, part of you stays there forever. Part of you stays there forever for sure. This is not happening. Oh, I do love Los Angeles traffic because I'm a sicko.

Yeah, you are. Speaking of sicko, Speaking of sicko. a really sick thing to do is to start a hack for a higher company that destroys people's lives for money and then lie about it later. That would be a bad thing to do. On an unrelated note, let's continue talking about Rajat Kare, the guy who might sue us for these episodes. So the revelations that came from the case we were discussing at the end of the last episode, right, where you've got that Ray, that private detective who starts looking

into a case involving an Indian hacking company and remembers all these private security guys telling him about Rajat Kare's presentations, which wind up, you know, getting leaked to Reuters. That all blows up the curtain of silence that had existed around Kare's mercenary hacking enterprise for the first, I don't know, close to 20 years that it had existed because all this stuff really starts to come out in 2023. Allegedly, he left the company around 2012.

Yes, that's what he claims. We're going to get into that. It's not quite that clear. But around 2022, Ray, who continues working on this case, right, he kind of like takes this on as something of a crusade along with Citizen Lab. He secures the first confession from a participant in one of these Indian hacking for hire companies. In court papers, an Indian hacker admits that he had infiltrated that Iranian American dude, Azima's email, along with other employees at a different firm. So this is like the first time that that happens. What company was he working for? You said it was one of these companies. So is there like multiple... There's a bunch of them. I think he is working for...

So Spinoff is probably not accurate, but many of them are run by former Appen employees. So Appen is kind of, if you're looking at this as like a primordial ooze thing, right, Appen is the first company to walk out of the muck, right, and then all of the other companies that make up the Indian hack for hire industry are descended from it, you know? So like Appen kind of spins down a lot of its hacking,

although it's kind of debatable how much has been spun down. But a lot of guys leave app and and start their own hacking for higher companies, right? A lot of like guys become entrepreneurs out of that. And so app and is kind of ground. It's patient zero, right? It's where the I know I'm mixing my metaphors, but it's the start of this.

And you can trace back all of these other companies that Ray is investigating, one way or the other, they nearly all trace back to Appin. So the New Yorker talked to a guy, John Scott Railton, who actually, I've talked with a bit. He's done some work with Bellingcat. He's a senior researcher at Citizen Lab, and he's the head of their Beltrox investigation. One of the things he says about like Ray getting a confession from this Indian hacker is, you know how in some industries, everyone knows a guy who can do a certain thing?

Well, in Hacking for Higher, India is the guy. They are just so prolific. That's the way he describes the industry that descends from Appen. The hacker that Ray gets on the record is a former Appen employee who I think was working at Belltrock's after a while, but he's a former app and employee named Aditya Jain. And the reason that Ray knows this guy is that he and Jain had developed a business relationship before he started looking into the case.

And when he starts realizing there's this whole network of companies in India, he goes to his Indian friend who he knew used to work in the tech industry in India. And it's like, hey, do you have any idea who's behind all this stuff? And Jain is like, yeah, LOL, me. Like I'm literally the guy. Do you have any idea who's behind all this stuff? And Jane is like, yeah, LOL, me. I'm literally the guy. Like he is literally the guy who did the hack

into that Iranian-American dude. That is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's pretty funny. And so he gets him on the record. I guess Jane might've felt bad about it, but he's like willing, or he's just in a position now where he didn't feel like he was as in danger. He's not living in the States anymore. But he goes on the record about this was windup being a really

dangerous move. Yeah, I'd be worried about being like killed by the Indian government or something. But well, in this case, the people who had hired him to do the hack into that Iranian American dude who had hired like the Indian company he worked for, were the Emirates was the sovereign wealth fund. the Emirates. Oh yeah, so you were to end up like... They will fucking murder people. Chop the pieces in a barrel. Yeah.

You do not want to piss those guys off if you could avoid it. So when they find out that he's talking to this PI, they reach out to Jane and they're like, hey, would you like to fly to Dubai for a private meeting? No, no. The answer is no. Yeah. Well, Jane goes to his buddy Ray and is like, hey, they invited me to a private meeting. No, no. The answer is no. Well, Jane goes to his buddy Ray and is like, hey, they invited me to a private meeting in Dubai and he's like, absolutely do not go to Dubai.

You will either wind up locked away or bone-sought. Do not do that. Good advice for everybody. There's one place in the world you should not go and that is Dubai. I don't care if you want to see the Burj Khalifa. I know it's the tallest building in the world. That is Dubai. Yeah. I don't care if you want to see the Burj Khalifa. I know it's the tallest building in the world. It's not that cool. I've seen it. Been on a couple of layovers there. It's big, but it's not that cool.

It's like Vegas with less sin. Just go to Vegas, folks. You'll get your fill. You'll have a good time. So thankfully, Jane does not go to Dubai. But while he's in India, he gets a call from a guy who like meets with him and is like, hey, I'm a cop and I got paid to beat you half to death. So he reaches out to his buddy Ray about

that and Ray says, I don't think that guy's a cop, but you should probably flee the country. So he fucking bounces at this point. Now, the story here is pretty winding. It's actually goes on from there. But this gives you an idea of how dangerous these guys are. This one dude starts talking about his time in India's mercenary hacking industry. And then both Dubai and guys within India are presumably trying to kill or seriously injure him. Yeah, this sets off an entirely predictable series of events. Yes.

So Rajat Kare is the godfather of this industry that's now so robust in India. And the players that have followed him are mostly people who used to work for him, former app and employees. And these guys have all, you know, while what they're doing is illegal, this whole industry is illegal under Indian and international law, they tend to keep themselves safe and illegal clear by maintaining a regular working relationship with the government. Part of why the Indian government is willing to look the other way on a lot of this is that they are locked in a permanent

cyber war with both India and Pakistan. And both India and Pakistan have pretty robust cyber warfare networks, especially, or not in India, but both China and Pakistan. Obviously, the Chinese government has a lot of money to throw at shit like this. And they're basically in a constant border conflict with India. Pakistan is the same way. So this is kind of, India sees these guys as essentially a threat multiplier, right? These allow us both deniable assets. If these guys get caught fucking with a Chinese military, you know, installation or whatnot or fucking with some Chinese billionaires, private data, we can deny that we had anything to do with it because they're private companies, and also they provide us with capabilities that we may not have in-house. That Reuters report cited a researcher from Sentinel-1, Tom Hagel, and two other US-based

researchers who tracked the development and acquisition of what Reuters termed an arsenal of hacking tools and matched it in time to a series of cyber espionage campaigns. These campaigns were groundbreaking, not just in the scope of their business, but in how user friendly they made ordering up a cyber criminal. And this is where things get really interesting because, you know, app and one of the things that they, they really set up is they, they, they don't just sort of like form a business in like hacking for hire that companies can use, but they make it

like They're very much part of because again, this is all starting to happen in the early aughts They very much make it like app store friendly, right? Yeah, that's one of their real innovations and I'm gonna read you a quote from that root Reuters article because this was fascinating to me Customers would log into a discrete site once dubbed dubbed MyCommando, and ask Appen to break into emails, computers, or phones. Users could follow the spice progress as if they were tracking a delivery, eventually receiving instructions to download their victim's data from digital dead drops, according to logs of the system reviewed by Reuters.

It was the best organized system that I have ever seen, said Jockey Gomez, a former news publisher in the Dominican Republic. Gomez told Reuters that in 2011 he paid Appen $5,000 to $10,000 a month to spy on the Caribbean nation's elite and mine the material for stories in his now defunct digital newspaper. So… Yeah, I mean, it sounds extremely user-friendly. Yeah, yeah, just being able to see like, oh, the hacker is like attempting to break into the, no, he's made it into their email. He's collecting all of their data. Now there's a dead drop for me to go to. I can certainly see the allure because yeah, sure, like there's there's there's certainly been times where someone's

pissed me off. Maybe they made fun of my wizard hat or something and Doxing them just isn't enough and I can I can I can go on to like a dot onion link But that all feels like a scam You know, if you're I don't want to waste my hard-earned Bitcoin on some like tour scam. So if instead I could have like this, you know, save up Two three months spend $3,000 on this hack that seems way way safer way more reliable Than the alternative. So I totally see the actual enterprise opportunities for this. Yeah, it's like it's taking this thing that is normally a really shady illegal

business where it's easy to get scammed and like turning it into just like ordering food on Grubhub. And that's an innovation, you know, that is that is a legitimate innovation. To continue from that Reuters article, Appen told customers it used the tool to tailor attacking attempts, enticing targets with bogus business proposals, fake interview requests, or porn. Others relied on sex appeal, like this message promising photos of a woman taking off

a traditional Indian dress. So you know, if strangers reach out to you on the internet with porn, maybe don't trust them. You can find porn. You're an adult that can read. You know how to find porn. You don't need someone to deliver it to your email. On the internet? Are you serious? We'll talk about that off Mike Garrison. Okay. So Reuters gained access to more than a year of activity on the My Commando system, which revealed that their customer base were mainly

private investigators working for various rich people in corporations that needed dirt on high society figures or political leaders. It was like PI's outsourcing work. Yes. Yes. A lot of this is somebody calls to a PI and says, I need dirt on this guy. I'm suing. And the PI goes to happen, right?

That's so funny. Yeah. He just like keeps a chunk of the change and he just sends it off to these Indian hackers. Yeah, like look what I was able to get for you. Yeah, that's a big chunk of it. And the other, it's funny how much of this is like people wanting to seem better at their job than they are.

Cause there's that Dominican journalist who's like, well, I wanted a bunch of scoops. So I just paid for them. I just paid them to spy on people. Interesting. Yeah, it is, it is very funny. Yeah. And there were a number of like, you know, a lot of these cases are big corporations,

are political leaders, or a lot of like really high level Skoll Duggery. But there's also a lot of really petty shit. Cause again, these are just like PIs outsourcing their cases. Reuters called out there was one of the cases was this new Jersey architect whose partner wanted to know if he was having an affair. Yeah. And like, yes, they just busted it. Like that is not that's not most of their business, but that is like a regular side job for these guys. That is like a decent chunk of like what

PIs investigate. So yeah, it makes sense that if they're gonna be outsourcing stuff, a lot of these hacks will be related just like random like, oh no, my husband's cheating on me or something. And one of the interesting dimensions of this, I talked about in the first episode how Israel also has a really sizable like hack for hire,

shady, private intelligence gathering industry. Harvey Weinstein retained a really shady Israeli company to dox his victims, basically. One of the things that's happened is this Indian hack for hire industry has grown up. It's a lot less expensive than some of these more premium sources. A huge number of app and customers are Israeli PIs, right? And so, again, that means that they're not always going after people who are sympathetic towards. Several of the cases are different Israeli PIs

going after Russian oligarchs for reasons that probably have something to do with one of their clients or whatever, dirt on this guy. One of the most troubling app in clients though is a user just known as Jim H. Jim H assigned app and hackers more than 30 targets over the course of 2011 and 2012. And these targets included a Rwandan dissident

and the wife of a wealthy Russian who was in the middle of a divorce. Among Jim H's sensitive requests were hacking Christie Rogers, who is the wife of Mike Rogers, then the chairman of the US House Intelligence Committee. And that's like a big deal. That is a very big deal. Yeah. And I'm going to continue from Reuters here.

Back in 2012, Christy Rogers was an executive at Aegis, a London-based security company. Jim H told the hackers that Aegis competed with his client, another security contractor called Global Security, an apparent reference to Virginia-based global integrated security. Cracking Rogers' corporate email was a top priority, Jim H. told the hackers. He claimed that her company was trying to undermine Global's bid for a $480 million U.S. Army Corps of Engineers contract to provide security for Afghanistan's reconstruction. contract to provide security for Afghanistan's reconstruction. So yeah, that's not great. I'm particularly more concerned about the Rwandan dissidents being hacked and why a Virginia-based security firm would want data on Rwandan dissidents. Oh, I'm sure there's only normal things happening in a Virginia surveillance firm. There's nothing to worry about there.

Yeah, and when you want to think about why did shit in Afghanistan go so wrong? Well, the fact that the bidding process was shit like this, companies hacking and fighting each other in order to not get low-balled for reconstruction funds, not 0% of why that was all such a disaster. So Rajat Kare left Appen in December of 2012. And he's turned over a new leaf since then. Not in the moral sense, but in the sense that he now wants to be seen as a big sexy tech founder type working in AI and robotics.

Specifically in the last year when you do see stuff from him, you see a lot of how into AI he is, how he's a big AI investor, this is the future. He's really trying to wipe this part of his past clean because I think he knows it's not sexy. And since his financial resources are seemingly bottomless, Kare has a lot of options when it comes to responding to people who report on his other dealings. And we're gonna talk to that,

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And we're back. So in November of 2023, which was last year, as I record this, you could be listening to it in the far future, assuming it hasn't been forced down by a takedown request. But in November of 2023, Rajat Kare used multiple law firms in his employ to threaten media publishers in five countries, including his own in the United States. That month is when Reuters published the investigation that has made a significant part of these episodes, right? I've quoted from it several times. Kare succeeded in getting the article pulled on December 4th and that did not get pulled from the United States because Reuters did nothing that you could sue them for in the United States. The ruling to pull the article came from a New Delhi court, which claimed

that it was indicative of defamation. Reuters stands by its reporting but was forced to pull the article came from a New Delhi court, which claimed that it was indicative of defamation. Reuters stands by its reporting but was forced to pull the article pending the result of a court case in that country because Reuters has employees and stringers in India. Sure. Right? They were putting them in danger. They could be putting their own employees in danger. Yeah.

Yes. And so that is how Kare, and he's not the only rich guy doing this, but this is how you can use, you know, you're reporting maybe perfectly legally safe in a country with, you know, moderate press freedoms like the United States, but you can use the much less free laws in a place like India to still fuck with a company like Reuters and to pull their reporting in the United States. Because if they'd left it up in the United States, theoretically, it could at least be seen in the court cases like disrespect for the Indian court system, which again, could be dangerous to their interests

in India and Reuters is a business. In addition to that, they also have employees that they want to keep safe. There's a lot that's potentially dangerous about this situation for them. So yeah, the good news is that, so obviously this website, I am accessing it and we'll have a link to it from an archive.today link. But the article is also being hosted now by Distributed Denial of Secrets, which is the largest public library of leaked and hacked data sets online. It recently launched an app and uncensored page that hosts the Reuters article and presumably soon other stuff as well from this case as more gets pulled down. They are also raising money to stay open right now, so maybe check on that, distributed denial of secrets. One thing that has constantly frustrated me as I have looked into this guy is a lack of good information on Rajat's background or personal life. One of the few questionable sources I found is a medium account operated by a user named Rajat Karei ITT Delhi.

The posts are fairly recent from January to May of 2023. My suspicion here, and I can't prove this, but this medium post and like that leader biography website and whatnot all have a bunch of very similar shit about Kare and when you Google him you don't find the illegal shit that he's accused of doing or the hacking company that he's accused of running in the first like 60 Google results it's all banal shit so he's filling up results with all this other information yes yes that is my suspicion you can like hire firms to like do that for you I'm sure he might have resources to do this himself, but yeah, that's a reasonable guess. He actually does own, or at least at one point,

owned a reputation management firm. Yeah, so yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is well within his capability wheelhouse, right? So for an example of what this content looks like, this medium, and I read through a number of these medium posts, it's mostly really poorly written business reporting, stuff like, for a greener future, boundary holding, invests in clean technology, which is a press release for the investment company that Kare has moved on to running after his time at Appen.

It's weird. Some of these articles are almost written like they're in first person, but they're clearly not written by Kare, I don't think. One of the ones that gives us a little bit of context into the man is an article titled Rujit Kare, Venture Capitalist and Entrepreneur. Here's how it describes his work with Appen. Rujit Kare started his entrepreneurial path by founding an education firm after earning his computer science degree from the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi.

Kare started his boundary fund in 2016, as offices in France and Luxembourg enlist its primary interest as AI, but also declares its involvement in basically all other sexy tech vats, UAVs, big data, internet of things. The next article I found in that medium blog from April of 2023 is more revealing.

The title in all caps reads, Rashat Kare is not only an entrepreneur or eventual capitalist, but also a yoga practitioner. Oh, sure. Yeah, it's a- I bet he is. I don't know why it's the only one in all caps,

but I found that very funny. The major goal of Kare's Facebook page, Rijat Kare Yoga, is to spread awareness of the benefits of yoga. According to him, yoga helps with mind control in addition to physical strength. Yoga is believed to cause one's awareness to unite with the universal consciousness. According to Rajat Kare and yogic literature, according to modern physicists, the quantum firmament is the source of all manifestations in the cosmos. Well, I like that he and young literature agree on this.

That's really important to me. I should have reached out to a modern physicist to see if they agree that the quantum firmament is the source of all manifestations in the cosmos. He didn't cite a source for that one, I'm not sure. I don't know if it's interesting because he does have this Facebook page and I'm guessing the most basic thing is that it's purely to again take up space in the early Google rankings. It does kind of read like he's trying to build him brand for himself as like a yoga for entrepreneurs guy but I don't know that that's exactly what's happening. Who's to say? I mean I can see that it's being an extension

of what he wants. The stuff you were reading from his book last episode, like, sure, like, why not? Yeah, just one other thing to do to fill up the search results. Like, why not? Yeah. And they are, none of it reads like a thing that he personally wrote. Like, all of the posts are a couple sentences of some like bullshit. And then a stock photo with words over it. Like, there's a woman doing like an own post sitting in her office chair in front of a laptop. I contemplate life with a yogic mindset and newfound wisdom or like a man sitting in like his legs crossed in his hands on his knees and like a yoga position in front of a laptop on top of his desk with yoga envisions the path to control.

Okay. Yeah, I don't think that this is really speaking to a deeply held belief of his. But it seems to have worked because it is hard to find shit on this guy unless you really dig into stuff or talk to people who have been researching him for a while. His PR attempts, I don't know, if this is PR, I don't know, if this is PR, I don't know that it's not wildly successful, but I think what this is is like trying to flood the zone. And it certainly worked for that. He's been successful in getting most of the negative

reporting on him down. That New Yorker piece we quoted from is still up. I don't know if it's that the New Yorker was willing to call his bluff. Maybe they didn't have assets in India they were worried about. Because usually what happens when you get takedown requests, you know, some of them are serious and some of them are just a guy trying to see if you'll blink. I've gotten a few that are clearly from like a bullshit, like, okay, this is some fucking Nazi trying to scare me.

And I know that I'm legally in the right. So like, yeah, come on and sue me if you want. And usually they send you the threat and then nothing happens. My guess is that the New Yorker basically called his bluff and so they didn't wind up taking shit down. Other outlets have taken stuff down. There's newspapers in Luxembourg that have like pulled articles on Kare, which is where he lives. the Sunday Times in the UK has had to remove references to Kare and his businesses after discussions with his advisors. And the Daily Beast furthermore reports, quote, In Switzerland, lawyers acting for Kare managed to take out an injunction that forced the Swiss radio and television investigative team to scrub the tech entrepreneur's name from

a story alleging that Appen had assisted the Katari government in spying on FIFA officials ahead of the 2022 World Cup. An editor's note now added to that story reads, on November 6th, 2022, this publication was amended due to an interim court order. The name of the entrepreneur concerned has been removed from the publication. And this all seems to be done by Claire Locke, who is working on behalf of Karay. That is the Reputation Management firm. Claire Locke's efforts on behalf of him have gotten similar stories killed in India-based outlets, including The Times of India and The Scroll. On their website, Claire Locke has been described as media assassins.

They have earned prominence representing not just Rajat Kare, but a number of men accused in Me Too cases. One of their most famous clients is James O'Keefe of Project Veritas. Oh, wow. Yeah. These are like the law firm for oligarchs and like right wing shitheads. Yeah. In one 2019 article, they threatened the New York Times that they would be liable

for catastrophic economic damage for reporting on Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska. The firm also threatened the Times after like the Times published an article on Yuri Milner, another Russian billionaire close to Putin. They brag on their website that they can kill stories for clients. And when the Daily Beast reached out to Claire Locke for their story, a representative responded,

Mr. Kare has dedicated much of his career to the field of information technology security. That is cyber defense and the prevention of illicit hacking. And it is truly unfortunate that he has found himself the subject of false accusations of involvement in a hack for higher industry or supporting or engaging in illicit hacking or cyber activities. Those accusations are categorically false. They've been rejected by courts and regulatory bodies and debunked by experts.

And Mr. Kare will not hesitate to continue to take steps to enforce his rights and protect his reputation from such false attacks. Yet the Daily Beast reporting remains up, and I guess we'll see how long that remains the same about this podcast. I think lawsuits in the US would be particularly interesting based on how much could come out in discovery. I'm sure there'd be lots of things that'd be hidden, but like there could be more damaging consequences of actually pursuing like a US lawsuit. Yeah, I don't think he would want to actually get into a suit.

And I think the goal here is make the court cases be in India where you know, like you've got the law on your side and just trust that you can get a lot of shit pulled through that because companies don't wanna have like a judgment go badly against them in India because it's a big market. That really does seem to be, like I don't think that's entirely what's going on,

like that's not the totality of their legal efforts against his critics, but that's a big part of how they're able to get so much stuff pulled. It's also worth noting that like, you don't have to yield to this shit. One of the people that Claire Locke reached out to was University of Toronto professor Ronald Debert. Again, he's like one of the citizen lab guys. And they sent a takedown request to one of

his blog posts on appen. And he just ignored it, right? He told the Daily Beast, I believe strongly in academic freedom and freedom of speech. This is clearly an attempt to silence credible evidence-based investigative journalism that makes people uncomfortable. And there's no way that I would cooperate with such a request. And that would be my hope for most people who get threatened with this.

However, again, part of what they're betting when most of the companies, most of the newspapers, reporting on them are owned by big companies. And they tend to take a, well, it's best just to fold rather than like risking a lawsuit. I mean, especially if they have parts of their industry inside India. Yeah. That's really makes it more complicated. And this is the way authoritarians always build power, right?

Is most people, if you just threaten a fight, most people will avoid the fight because it's a risk. And then you win a bunch of shit. You silence your critics, you get to keep acting unethically. We need more people to have the attitude towards this that Debert has in order to actually fight back against guys like Rajat Kare and companies like Appen. But they have a pretty easy path to hoe in terms of like scaring the shit out of people who might report on them because the system is very much stacked in their favor. Not even the system stacked in their favor. The way in which the people who like run the companies that own newspapers think is stacked in their favor, right?

The desire to avoid and mitigate risk is stacked in their favor, right? The desire to avoid and mitigate risk is stacked in their favor. And that's not great. Legal attempts against Appen and Rajat Kare have had mixed success. A case in the Dominican Republic of a newspaper editor who used Appen to spy on private citizens was killed on procedural grounds. Kare was never charged. In Switzerland, an investigation was dropped due to a lack of promising investigative approaches. No one has yet successfully prosecuted Kare or Appen for hacking. In 2016, a Shinnecock Tribal official pleaded guilty to accessing Chuck Randall's email account.

She'd hired Steven Sartarpia, a PI, to help her get access to the account, and he claimed in an affidavit to have used Appen. Both the tribal official and the PI were convicted and sentenced to probation, but again, nothing was done to Appen for operating illegally in the United States. Kare's ongoing involvement in Appen and other hack for hire shops is unclear. He claims to have resigned in 2012, but corporate filings tie him to the company. His signature is on papers from 2013 and 2014. He continued to hold a stake in the company for years after he quote unquote left.

And Reuters reports Indian corporate records say he didn't resign from app until 2016. His family maintained a significant degree of control and ownership in the company until recently possibly up to today. One of the things that makes this hard is that over time, the different parts of app, including the, the subsidiary of it that does the hacking have like rebranded under different names. And right now, ACSG, which is like the name for the part of app and that does the, the shady hacking shit is owned by a company called SunKist Organic Farms, which is owned by Rajat Kare's brother Anush, right? Oh my God! Oh my God! No, this is like breaking a bad Gus Fray level naming conventions for your illegal criminal enterprise.

Yeah, that's pretty funny. That's pretty funny. Oh, that's good. That's pretty funny. Oh, that's good. That's good stuff. So today, you kissed organic farms? You kissed organic farms. That's great. That is how you name your criminal organization.

That is that's just top tier shit. Yeah, we love to see it. So today, cybersecurity experts widely consider app and to have been the wellspring from which the now gigantic Indian mercenary hacking or industry originates from. Kare's ongoing involvement is again unclear. He has had his hands somewhat full recently because in 2021, the Indian CBI, which is like their Bureau of Investigation, accused him of embezzling almost $100 million from the Indian education system. Now, this is unrelated to hacking.

This is from another company he helped run. Seven other executives were involved. He just gets around. He just gets around and he loves crime guying. A lot of stuff happens on his way to yogic enlightenment, it seems. Yeah. Yes. A lot of yogic experts will tell you that embezzling $100 million from the Indian education

system is the path to nirvana. It's just a regular step on experiencing the quantum field that all things emerge from. Yeah. So, former app and employees have wound up in a number of different companies that are now influential Indian hacking operations. In October of 2022, two companies, Cyberroot and Beltrox, both founded by former app and employees, were accused of hacking reporter Jay Solomon's email. Solomon settled the case.

In summer of 2022, Google researchers tied a hack for hire campaign to RebSec Solutions, which was also founded by a former app and employee. In 2023, Facebook identified Cyber Root Risk Advisory as a mercenary spy firm that used fake accounts to trick people into downloading malware. Cyber Root was created by former app and employees. Beyond app and employee. They really have their tendrils everywhere, huh? Yeah, yeah. No, these guys are, this is a big deal. Yeah. You know what else is a big deal, Garrison? Oh The the importance of the advertising industrial complex on podcast revenue. Yeah, it's it's really all of podcast revenue

Unless you subscribe to our ad-free version, which doesn't exist on Android yet for some reason Yeah, Sophie shrugging. She doesn't know why either. We're working on it folks It takes a lot of on On the way to podcast, yoga enlightenment, Android is just a few firmament layers behind Apple. So it just takes a bit for the quantum firmament to catch up. And that is where we currently are. Yeah. Yeah, they haven't, they haven't cleansed their, I don't know, I don't know enough about

yoga to keep making this joke. They're yogi energy. Yeah. There's one thing. Yeah. Google's Yoni energy. You make her this joke. Yeah. There's something. Yeah. Google's Yoni, which I think would be Gmail? Yeah, that seems right. Why not? That seems right. Yeah, sure.

Oh, and speaking of Google side note listeners, if you use Google Podcast, it's going away. So that's just the thing. Yeah. So subscribe on something else. Their Yoni has run out, it seems. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well. Subscribe on something else. Their Yoni has run out, it seems. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well... Yeah, they got lingamed by Google cost-cutting. I think that's the word for dick. Anyway, I was trying to say they got fucked. Here's our sponsors. Good song. The Johnny Carson theme, right? Hey, who wrote that? Skip, who do you think? It's your buddy. Hi everyone, I'm Paul Enko.

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It sounds like it should be the next season of True Detective or something. These Canadian cops trying to solve this 25-year-old mystery of who spiked the chowder on the Titanic set. A very special episode is Stranger Than Fiction. It's normal people plop down in extraordinary circumstances. It's a story where you say, this should be a movie. Listen to very special episodes on the iHeart Radio app app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. So, you know, the app and employees that have formed a lot of these companies that are now the backbone of this hack for higher industry and hackers who were not initially affiliated with app and but have just kind of like built careers for themselves. This industry has taken off are now the backbone of an industry that is dedicated solely to the violation of privacy and the chilling of democratic speech. It's really

scary when you start like looking into the different reports on stuff like this. One of the research firms Blackberry that like looks into a lot of these cybersecurity threats. Different from the obsolete phones, I assume. I think they actually are related. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, it's fucked up. I was reading this really messed up report about this because a lot of these different, when you see these hackers in the wild, right?

When you see that like, oh, a bunch of, there's a bunch of simultaneous attempts on this group of Gmail accounts, right? They're not labeled. This was done by Cyberroot. This is done by Appen. You just can tell by the way that it's occurring that you have a bunch of related attacks going on that's probably

are all tied together. So cyber researchers will give names to these different cyber mercenary groups before they find out who they actually work for. And one of the groups that Blackberry was like trailing For a while they named it Bahamut which I checked because when I hear Bahamut I'm like oh, yeah the fucking dragon god from Dungeons and Dragons, but actually turns out that That's the name of a mythical sea monster in Arab lore

So there you go. There you go. Not D&D, which is disappointing to me. No, it turns out D&D actually was taking from a lot of various folklorists. Yeah. I've never been so disappointed in Gary Gage. I can't believe that British would wait. No, D&D is a British. No, he's American. No, it's American. No, it's American.

No, British people could never create something this wondrous. Warhammer? Yeah, but they stole all that from Frank Herbert. Okay, well, there. I stole a lot of it from Frank Herbert. And from Michael Morkock, but he's half American. He lives in Texas now, so. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna quote from a Reuters article on Bahumut. Blackberry's vice president of research, Eric Millam said the diversity of Bahumut's activities was such that he assumed it was working for a range of different clients. There's too many different things going on across too many different ranges

and too many different verticals that it would be a single state, Millum said ahead of the report's release. Blackberry, which absorbed anti-virus firm Silence in 2019, stitched together digital clues left by other researchers over the years to create a picture of a sophisticated group of hackers. Blackberry also linked the group to mobile phone applications

in the Apple and Google app stores. Those apps, which included a fitness tracker and password manager, may have helped the hackers track their targets. Apple declined to comment on the record. Two of the apps flagged by BlackBerry are no longer in the app store though. A Google spokesman said all the apps

in the Google Play Store mentioned in the report had been removed. And that's really fucked up, that like part of how they're getting into people is they're putting password managers and like fitness track other apps on app stores that people download and that provide like backdoors into their phones so they can get all of their information. And specifically, Bahamut was targeting Middle Eastern human rights activists, right? Like that was a big part of who they were going after.

So that's great, sketchy shit. Now I bet you're wondering, okay, who the fuck was Bahamut, right? Because there's clearly, yeah. They certainly know how to name a company. Yeah. Between that and a sunkist organic farms or whatever. We're really crossing the two genders

of evil company naves. Yeah. And the company that's actually behind Bahamut probably is an Indian company called Fronesis, which is pretty closely related to Appen. I think they were again one of these companies that's founded by some former Appen people. And you can kind of find that there's like, again, you have to troll through some pretty dense cybersecurity reports to like find the connections between these two.

But it looks like Bahamut, this like pretty large and cohesive attempt to crack down on Middle East human rights activists by like getting into their phones through fake apps was all sort of the project of this Indian company called Fronesis. So that's cool. That's, that's good shit. Yeah, it's nice to see that this is not just legal but directly done with the approval of governments in a lot of cases. I'm happy. And I feel like the flip side of this is that a lot of this sort of activity is just also

done by the US government on American citizens and other like this. Like there is a difference between like doing like the hacking method of obtaining information versus just how much information from our emails, our internet history can just be accessed by police whenever they send in a request or is it just constantly monitored by other various government services. So like, yes, there is this whole criminal enterprise that works with companies, but in terms of privacy violations, this is also just stuff that regular intelligence agencies do all the time. It is just as nefarious, but it doesn't get treated the same way.

Yeah, it's fucked up. AppN seems to be defunct now, which is part of why we're getting information from former employees, people who used to work there. And one of the good things about this is that we are starting to get a lot more reporting on what this industry is capable of and what is being done in its name. I found a really interesting article from the

Bureau of Investigative Journalism that goes into detail. They're interviewing this former hacker called Rathor about some of his work for one of these companies that's a descendant from Appen. It runs the gamut. There's a bunch of interesting cases here. His first job was for this winemaker in New Jersey who wanted to break into her husband's email to find out how much money he had before the divorce. He got a lucrative assignment from a Belgian equestrian who wanted to like hack the email of a stable owner in Germany. He got like paid 20 grand for that because horse people have a lot of money to throw at shit like this. shit like this. He was involved, he was hired to like investigate into a double murder in Canada of this billionaire Barry Sherman and his wife who were like strangled with belts in the swimming pool outside of their Toronto homes. Yeah, quote from this article, Sherman was Canada's 12th richest

man and the murder caused a sensation. Soon after, Rathor received a call from a private investigator who wanted him to hack the dead man's email account. Rathor is not sure who the investigator was working for, but believes the ultimate client may have been one of the suspects in the case. He failed to break into Sherman's account, but his work was not finished. He was then paid to investigate

another suspect in the case, Kerry Winter, Sherman's cousin. There was no evidence that Winter had any involvement in the crime, but he had been embroiled in a decade-long lawsuit to force Sherman to hand over a chunk of his fortune. So that's sketchy, right? I love too that this guy is like, oh yeah, this is probably one of the murder suspects

having to hack this dead man's email. Cool, let's do it, let's try. Rathore said in this interview he did with the, uh, the investigation or the, um, uh, the Bureau for investigative journalism or the Bureau of investigative journalism said that his, his like kind of baseline trick, the first thing he would start with when he wanted to break into an email was to send phishing emails to a source with fake Facebook login pages, right? So that they would log into their Facebook through that, right?

Um, they, they log into a page that they think is their Facebook, but it's actually saving their inputs and sending it to the people who sent the emails. So then they have the information to log into their Facebook. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that gets something important about like the way hacking works today, because there's this, especially you watch like TV or movies, like the cops are always or whoever's always getting in with some machine that lets them break in through the password. And Rathora is like, yeah, that's not really how we usually do it, right?

I'll make a Facebook login page that looks perfect, right? It's indistinguishable from the real thing and quote, most of the time the target gives us their own password. They think the site is legitimate and the site is not legitimate and they give the password on their own. We are not a God, so we can't predict the password always they give. Yeah, it's more advanced social engineering than this like magical idea of hacking that's like, I'm in, I'm gonna write this script which is gonna force their way through the password.

And like, no, it's, you, you sent an email that tricks someone to thinking that you're like an actual social media company and actual like email account Google or something. And most people don't really think twice about it. And then their whole account is compromised. Yeah. And it's one of those things he does a lot of OSINT research. That's usually the starting point, right? Yeah. What's public about this person? What can I find out about like their loved ones, their family, their kids, you know, what can I learn? He basically does what I do for a BTB episode, right?

What can I get about their background, their level of wealth, you know, where they travel? He has like automated software to do this, which I don't have, but perhaps I should have. Yeah. Well, Robert, you know, for a small fee of about $3,000 a month, we could get these episodes really automated. Yeah, we could really cut out a lot of my groundwork on this shit. We could be breaking stories every week. Yeah.

I'm going to continue with another quote from that article. One example he gave was of an Indian man who had hired him to hack the email account of his air hostess girlfriend because he suspected she was cheating on him. Since the girlfriend was a bit of a drinker, Rathore analyzed her social media and found a photograph of her at one of her favorite bars. He then posed as the bar's owner and emailed the picture to her. The email said, hi, I want to share that picture with you so you can save it on your phone. And when you come back, just show the picture at the doorstep and you will get some discount.

When she clicked on the picture, malicious software downloaded, allowing Rathore to upload her private information. Like, yeah, I mean, it's just it's very well done social engineering. Yeah. Yeah. A mix of that and like for what you can't socially engineer, you brute force in that way, right? Like the social engineering is usually to get them

into some place where they'll download some malware that will give them more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know, that's probably enough. Garrison, how do you feel about the hack for hire industry and its godfather, Rajat Kare? I mean, I knew these sorts of industries like exist,

but I never really looked into like the details of how they actually operate. All right, like I there's like Yeah, of course, there's like a big Indian hacking industry But like I never really thought about like who started it where what they first got there start doing was there working with government contracts all that sort of like kind of minutia, so it is interesting learning about how all that sort of like kind of minutia. So it is interesting learning about how boring and ordinary so much of it is. Like it's a very like corporate version of this sort of like white collar crime, I guess.

But with often like devastating results in terms of governments trying to ruin people's lives, other people ending up dead, you know, there's, obviously it has like, it's not all clean. It's, it's all, it's all very, very horrible. But yeah, when you were describing like the, like the Uber Eats style of like, you can like track, you can track the hack on this app. It's like, oh yeah, just like a very weird, like very clean, sanitized version of crime. And I don't know.

I mean, it makes sense that these things are out there, I suppose. Yeah, I think the thing that's interesting to me about it is also how how much it's not like a guy who was a hacker from the beginning or who like this is what he fell into because he realized it was, there was a lot more money in that. There's a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, yeah. We didn't put on like a black hoodie and do like a Mr. Robot style thing. It's like, no, I had like a tech company and then I realized I could make a lot of money

digging up dirt on dissidents and selling the information to the Indian government. And then when you can't do that anymore, you sell it to private sectors. Like that, that all kind of makes sense. It's interesting how fast that slides from, yeah, running an education company to, oh, I have now part of the biggest criminal hacking organization in the world. Yeah. It's cool. I love this story.

You too are just one step away. Ah, that's hopefully Garrison. Hopefully that would be a fun thing to spin cool zone off into. Like if we if we just started using our podcast money to hire hackers and then that's what I'm saying. We can really start automating in government automating these episodes. Yeah, Sophie. Let's let's reach out to corporate about that. The actual way to expand would be that we can offer services for $4,000 per week.

We can put out a podcast about anyone you want. That is right, for four grand a week. All right, all right, some fucking podcasts. Like you pissed at your boyfriend, right? You got a bad roommate. He's the bastard of the week this time. Yeah. Yeah.

I have a list. The store manager at the target you work at. All right, let's see what we can find. Yeah, we'll throw their physical address into the episode. Anything could happen. That's probably legal. That would be the actual way to copy this business model. Yeah.

Yeah. You can have an app where you track the development of our script. You can see once it reaches five thousand words. Yeah, it's probably a pretty good plan. Yeah. All right, everybody. That's the episode. Garedia of anything you want to plug before we. Oh, right. Yes. Also.

Well, I have been spending a lot of time looking into a specific industry this past week. I'm not being paid $4,000 a week for it, but I am getting paid. I've been reading a whole bunch about how police are using drones. So there should be an episode out on it could happen here, which is how police are using drones as first responder technology and how that's just expanding out to a nonstop surveillance of communities that already face way too many police interactions. So yeah, that should be that should be out. Check that out. It could happen here and we'll be back next week.

Yes, we will be back next week. Assuming we haven't been completely demolished by a lawsuit. Yes, soon to above the head, have all of all the episodes are taken down. You have to go hide in a bunker. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Anyways, all right. Bye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. time is back for another round. We had a big bear of a man, he was called Mal Evans, he was on roadie, and he was coming back on the plane and he said, will you pass the salt and pepper? And I miss herding. I said what? Salt and pepper. Listen to season 2 of McCartney A Life in L on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone. I'm Paul Nica and I'm Skip Bronson.

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