Behind the Bastards - Part Two: We Watch More of Jordan Peterson's New Show

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

Robert is joined again by Cody Johnston to continue to discuss Jordan Peterson's new incomprehensible tv series.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations. In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests. It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse look like a lot of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science?

And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price? Two death sentences in a life without parole. My youngest? I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, Cody, it's part two of this latest journey into the world of Jordan Peterson. But first, let's talk about that mighty, mighty boss. What the day released in 2022 about the murder of George Floyd and then the protests that followed. I can't believe you were not aware of this.

I had no idea. It is stunning. It is, I mean, just the fact that it exists is just so beautiful and funny. The fact that, I think we can say the mighty, mighty boss tones are the whitest a band has ever been without being explicitly a neo-nazi band. It can't be whiter than the mighty, mighty boss tones. Yeah, no, they're a goose step and a shuffle away from that. Not that they're Nazis, but it does not get more Caucasian. I would say if you are the mighty, mighty boss tones watching the murder of this man and the protests that gripped the nation,

perhaps the thing you should say is nothing. Maybe, obviously, we'll make a statement that we support the protests or this was terrible, but you certainly shouldn't write an entire album about George Floyd. That's just not a thing the world needs from the mighty, mighty boss tones. Or even an album that if you looked really hard, you'd be like, is this about George Floyd? Maybe if you're doing a song on your Sky album about how the police are bad, you could reference it. That would be fine. It has a long history of being anti-authoritarian.

Some proceeds to charity or something like that, some cause, I don't know, but this is wild. I listened to, also, the song is called The Killing of Georgie, which I would say is not a great title. It's so weird, I listened to part three, I can't find part one or two anywhere, and I'm not buying that album. Even some of these lyrics, Georgie, please stay, they took your breath away. Yeah, what the f... That is an insane thing to write. Because, again, the mighty, mighty boss tones, a lot of musicians to band, a bunch of people were in a room when they handed those lyrics out. And all of them had to be like, yes, this is a song, we're all going to take part in.

They performed it, they learned how it went. They made it, they made that into a music, and they just let it happen to the world, and no one stopped them. And one assumes they did that 12 times to get a whole album out of it. Yeah, it is. You know what, Sophie, let's play a clip from this song for the listeners at home. Give them 30 seconds. You have a tight 30. Yeah, I was going to say, the actual song just sounds like that one song.

All mighty, mighty boss tones sound the same. They don't have the ability to make multiple ska sounds that sound different. They're not real big fish. No, no, no, it even has that scream that the guy does in that other song. By the way, real big fish, you know how many albums they wrote about George Floyd? Not a single one. My guess was not a single one. Because real big fish understands that's not what America needs.

They don't need real big fish weighing in on this. You know, Godspeed real big fish, credit to them. But also, I would probably answer none to any band that you ask me about. There are very few musicians who specific take on this I need in the form of an album, right? You know, Five Iron Frenzy, wonderful ska band, made a lot of statements about how the police are terrible in social media. They didn't cut an album. Didn't cut an album about it. Because they knew, they knew.

We don't need that. Nobody needs that. At least one of them knew. Maybe some of them were on board and had the idea. But one of them was like, ah, I don't know guys, enough. You got to hit the chorus. Here we go. Skip ahead or no.

Oh, a little bit. Give us some chorus. Yeah. Here we go. Here we go. Really cares. Let the word go forth from this time and from this place. Do behold these truths to be self-evident. Terrible, terrible, awful, awful line.

I can't do any more. I listened to it back like in 20, whenever it came out and was like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. And it is so, it is the most cringe-worthy thing. It's like, it's one of the worst things I've ever heard. It's so bad. Even like not. I have listened, Cody. I have listened to an entire discography of Blink 182 covers turned into Nazi anthems.

Oh my God. Dozens of songs. Oh my God. Dozens. I have like 70 of them on my fucking hard drive. Dozens of them. And it was bad, but it didn't make me cringe like that. Yeah, like every, even if you ignore the fact that this is about George Floyd and they call him Georgie the entire time.

Which by the way, did anyone call him Georgie? Was that ever his nickname? I don't think so. Did you invent a nickname for a murder victim and then make an album about it? Also, if you're doing like, if you need two syllables because like melodically you need that extra syllable. George Floyd is his name. Yeah. That's two.

You got two right there. Yeah. I wanted it to be a little more, you know, discreet, a little under the radar. Like, oh, it's not definitely about George Floyd. Clearly it is. Yeah. But even if you, if you remove it from that, from the context of what it's about, like, it's so awkward. Like, do we hold these truths to be self-evident?

It's like a child song. It is like a child song. It's just a schoolhouse rock, like cadence. Which, like, I'm sorry for insulting schoolhouse rock right now. I didn't mean it. No, schoolhouse rock. Those songs generally worked. Yeah.

Many of them are stuck in my head periodically. To be self-evident. Like, what are like, that's a fucking song. I'm going to pour Bactine in my ears to try to get this out of my brain once we finish recording. It's so bad. Also, if you play it back, listeners, the chorus is literally just, I've never had to knock on wood. It's just that.

Yeah, that's the only song they have. It's the exact same tune. God, that's funny. I think it's because of the syllables and the beautiful lyricism that they've introduced. Yes. The perfect art that is, God. Unbelievable. This is, it's absolutely stunning that this would happen and that no one would stop it.

Like, morally, if you are ever around and your friends have a ska band and they attempt to make an album about the murder of a black man by the police, it is your moral responsibility to mace them until they stop. You have an ethical duty. If you fail to do that, it's the same as watching someone get kicked to death in the street and refusing to intervene. Anyway, Cody. Whatever it takes.

This is behind the bastards. A show about the mighty, mighty Boss Tones. History's greatest monsters. Do you think Jordan Peterson's ever been able to enjoy a ska song? Could you imagine him skanking? I can. Really? Because I've seen him cry about a bluegrass band he saw in Tennessee.

Well, yes. And then I saw a video of him dancing to it. And it's actually, it was good. Like, there was, there were a good band and it was like a bluegrass or as we call it. Like, yeah. Country ska. Yeah, country ska. Like, I got no issue with that kind of music.

It was a good band. They did a good job. But I think that any, like any music, I think moves him, which is, you know, fine. That's the most human thing I've ever heard about him. Exactly. So I think, I think he would skank it. I think he would skank it. I think he could really, I think he could really get down to, you know, that real big

fish song beer. What if you rewrote it to be about having a single sip of cider and then not sleeping for 30 days? And then saying you didn't sleep for 20 days. Like, let's be clear. Well, this has been nine minutes of Cody and Robert talking about ska. Alright, let's take off our bowling shoes and checkered hats. There are solid 11 people in our audience who were waiting for this for years.

And those 11 people having the best day of their lives, everyone else has deleted us from their phones. You're welcome to those people. Sorry to everybody else. Yeah. So, Cody, when we last left off with Jordan Peterson in this episode. Jordy, please. He was talking about how women are incapable of looking at relationships in anything other

than like a cold transactional way. Now, the next thing Peterson does in this episode is stick his brain's dick into the problem of mass shootings. Did you like that sentence, Cody? You feel good about how I wrote that sentence? I don't. I hate it. Did it take your breath away?

Oh, God. Here's Jordan. Thank goodness. I think Warren Farrell wrote a book called The Boy Crisis told me yesterday when I was talking to them that every single high school shooter was fatherless. I mean, you know, that's a small sample of people, but society seems to be, let's say, degenerating into a more and more woke direction. Oh.

So, Cody, I'm not going to look up his buddy Warren like I did his other friend, because the claim that he's made there that mass shooters are always fatherless is complete horseshit. And it's the easiest thing in the world to debunk. I was going to look at like, and this is a thing that if you're a listener of this show and you're like, I actually like Jordan Peterson. I don't know what you're doing here, but thanks for coming. Anything he ever says, just be like, what?

It's always wrong. That sounds off. It's at least a little wrong. And this is a lot wrong. Snopes has covered this, which makes it very easy to debunk. There is a years long right wing media claim that mass shootings are committed by fatherless children. This is to demonize single mothers.

It's just to demonize the fact that like the breakdown of the family and not, I don't know, the fact that like, look, I'm as pro gun as they get, but it's the fact that any angry young person can purchase whatever gun they want, even if they have a history of domestic violence with 60% of them do. If you want to look at a thing that actually most mass shooters have in common, most of them have a history of violence towards women that doesn't stop them from acquiring a firearm. Anyway, all of this stuff. Yeah, mass shooters and police.

Yes. And police. Yes. Who killed twice as many people as mass shooters in the United States? We should also know. Anyway, the point of origin of this like right wing sort of thing that like this is the problem is single mothers and not anything to do with guns or patriarchal violence or whatever. The point of origin for this is an article in the Federalist in 2015, which was later

picked up to act as evidence for a Fox News column. It did not claim this Federalist article does not claim, as Peterson does, that every mass shooter is fatherless. Quote, on CNN's list of the 27 deadliest mass shootings in US history, seven of those shootings were committed by young under 30 male since 2005 of the seven only one Virginia Tech shooters. So I'm not going to try to pronounce the Virginia Tech shooter who had been mentally unstable since childhood was raised by his biological father throughout childhood.

Now, this is also extremely out of date and wrong. Quote, for the purposes of this article, we researched contemporaneous news reports to see if any of the shooters originally listed in CNN's 27 deadliest mass shootings in US history grew up in households without a father. We found that with a father, we found that several of them did the Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 people in Virginia Tech in 2007 was raised by both a father and a mother. So was George Hennard, who killed 23 people in Colleen, Texas in 1921. Charles Whitman, who killed 17 people at the University of Texas at Austin in 1966.

Nadal Malik Hassan, who fatally shot 13 people in Fort Hood in 2009. Jivari Wong, who killed 13 in 2009 in Binghamton, New York. And Aaron Alexis, who fatally shot 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard in 2013. James Huberty, who killed 21 people at a McDonald's in the San Ysidro neighborhood of San Diego, California in 1984, was raised by a single father and later a father and a stepmother after his biological mother abandoned the family. So again, this is not, and by the way, this is not a comprehensive list of all of the mass shooters.

Of course. Of parents. Many of them have. It is complete horseshit to say that they do not have, like, mass shooters tend to be fatherless. That's nonsense. Yeah. It's provably nonsense.

Yeah. That's like Stephan Mollinier's shit. Yes. So Jordan doesn't have an editor for content here. Again, he's just kind of talking in a nice room. So he starts off on a rant next about how woke universities are. And he winds up repeating at length his arguments from episode one about not saying anything you don't 100% believe in, again, because there's no editor here and no one can tell him,

hey, Jordan, you win over all this already. And so for the next like couple of minutes, he's just kind of describing things people without explaining anything of meaning. It's like weirdly pointless. And here's an example. Everybody gets rejected 95% of the time. You only have to succeed once. And then maybe you're not good at interviews and maybe you try hard and you don't find

another job. And that sucks because he actually tried hard and you failed. And so often people pull their punches so that if they fail, they can always say, well, I didn't really try that hard. Yeah. It's just like, okay. He does this a lot. It's very stream of consciousness.

Yeah. It's very stream of consciousness. But also it's like, yeah, that's true. It's like there's like, he's got this- Yeah, it sucks when you don't get a job that you interview for. Yeah. Absolutely, Jordan. He doesn't.

And that's why I think part of why he's so effective and connective for some people and why a lot of his critics will often be like, but he's a good at this and good at this because he'll say like really basic almost banal like therapist stuff. Yeah. And then they have like, yeah, sometimes people pull their punches so that like when they fail, they can say like, oh, I didn't really try very hard. So it's fine. That's a thing people do.

He's absolutely correct. Yes. But like what- I do that often. Exactly. But like, okay. And so again- Go on. Like it's like- Yeah. This episode is a mix of like these things.

He's just kind of like laying out things that happen in the world. And then he's mixing it in with these like factual statements that are always wrong that he half remembers from friends of his, all of who are right-ring propagandists, like said in articles, they work for- wrote for Quillette or Heritage or whatever. And as the episode goes on, he makes repeated reference to his private clinical practice as a therapist, talking about how he laboriously helped people rebuild their lives or fix intractable mental health problems. And this is where things get really messed up.

Lots of people would come into my office and they're terrified to be there. They didn't want to be there. It took them like two years to get up the courage to go see a therapist. And so part of my job was to make them as comfortable as I possibly could instantly. And a huge part of that was paying attention to them and not to me. And you can get really good at that. Wait a second. Sorry.

Brave. Brave. Brave. Come on. Yeah. The youth is to be about them and not you, Jordan. What are you talking about? Yeah.

Nobody goes to a therapist to learn about the therapist. I just want to get a therapist to pay 150 bucks a session so I can get to Noah, dude. What is it? What is it? We're going to get into what he's talking about, Cody. But first, you know what is the only real kind of therapy? Spending money. Is it ska?

Yeah. Well, it is. It is, in fact, ska. Look, you go to a fucking Streetlight Manifesto concert and tell me that you didn't just have a religious experience. I will. I dare you to, Cody. They're accepted.

During the summer of 2020, some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations. And you know what? They were right. I'm Trevor Aronson, and I'm hosting a new podcast series, Alphabet Boys. As the FBI, sometimes you've got to grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI spied on protesters

in Denver. At the center of this story is a raspy-voiced, cigar-smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark. And not in the good and bad ass way. And nasty sharks. He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen.

Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price. My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday.

I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't a match and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all bogus. It's all made up. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lance Bass, and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow to train to become the youngest person to go to space. And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down. It's 1991, and that man, Sergei Krekalev, is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on Earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart.

And now he's left defending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space, 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, OK, so we're back. Jordan Peterson has just talked about how he became friends and gets all of his patients to trust him about how that's a real struggle as a therapist, getting these people to trust

them about how good he is at it. And the fact that he's talking about how important was to gain the trust of these troubled people who came to him looking for mental health advice, that made me want to look up what happened with his actual patients, because he's no longer in clinical practice. And I kind of thought maybe there's a story there. And boy, howdy! Oh, no. Yeah, I came across an article in the magazine Canada Land about the end of Jordan Peterson's

clinical practice. Now, this occurred as he became a media figure and he went from obscure academic to wealthy celebrity. And one of the first things Jordan did when this happened is abandon the patients that he'd built a rapport with. Quote, Shortly before Peterson decided he couldn't both be a media personality and a practicing psychologist at the same time, he canceled sessions with patients, later claiming illness while maintaining an appointment to appear on television.

He responded to messages from patients with auto reply emails, which brought up the challenges of his burgeoning fame, directing recipients to send argumentative emails to his ideological opponents. He employed his wife to sort through emails from patients without first asking for their consent. He shared potentially identifying information about patients with other patients. Oh my God. That's really bad.

That's horrible. That's horrible. Unethical. That's deeply unethical and kind of evil. That's not just kind. That's evil. Yeah. That's really evil and selfish and cruel.

Deeply like potentially disturbing, to be honest, like potentially something that could even have a body count. Because being a therapist is a thing like a number of people who are attending therapy are doing it because suicide is a thing they consider regularly. And if they let you in and trust you and then you like both abandon them because you get famous and also tell them, hey, send emails harassing people like, like, yeah. So okay. Yeah.

Okay. Like, yeah, you're trusting this person and they cancel and then you see them on TV. That's fucked up. What? Like, could you repeat the part about the emails to his opponents? Yeah. It was like this long list of just like, direct recipients to send argumentative emails to his ideological opponents.

So wait. So he emailed his patients to, you know, yeah, this was like, I think this was a thing and let me pull up the art. It's been a while since I read it. Let me pull up the article again and find that's just so mess like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Well, I think we know what's wrong with him. He's a fucking narcissist who wanted money.

Yeah. That is like, that's all I need to know about this guy found this article when you and I were doing the Peterson episodes that we did, because this is legitimately like the worst thing I've heard about him. That's all you need to know about him. Like, that's, oh my God, all right. So basically this article, a lot of it focuses on one of his patients, Samantha, who like, he cancels an appointment with her saying that he's sick and then he shows up on TV

the next night. This is like right when all that stuff breaks with that Canadian like change to hate laws and stuff, quote, when Samantha responded to an email that offered new dates to meet, she received what appeared to be an auto reply aimed at his growing number of supporters attempting to mobilize a letter writing campaign in his battle against political correctness at the university. Hi. Thank you for writing.

At the moment, I am unable to keep up with my email correspondence, although I will try at some point in the future to respond personally. If you are emailing me about current PC related issues, you should consider sending your comments to the following individuals. Remember that the only way that any of this can be straightened out is through carefully articulated and reasonable arguments. I would say that the vast majority of letters I have received have been exactly that, and it's just what is needed.

Assume rationality in the part of the recipients and make a careful case. We want to play in the court of reason, CC a copy to me if you wish. And then the message gave email addresses for like seven University of Toronto officials who had gone after him for his refusal to refer to pay students by their preferred gender pronouns. So that's what's happening. Is this woman, he builds a rapport with her. She's like, comes to rely on him for her mental health care.

And then he like ghosts her and all she gets is auto replies telling her to harass people at the university on his behalf. That's literally what happens there, which is profoundly abusive. That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard about Jordan Peterson. Yeah. That is in the top three at least. Yeah. I have to sort through it, but that's like really fucked up.

That's really deeply fucked up to it just speaks so much to who he is and what he's all about. Yeah. And there's a number of ethics complaints that get filed against Peterson by patients who found themselves discarded by him in his rush to capitalize on fame. Obviously, he doesn't talk about any of this on the show, right? He just talks about how good he is at building a rapport with people and getting them to trust him and not talking about himself or whatever.

They're not talking about himself, focusing on them, God, what a fucking creep. What a piece of shit. So he spent several minutes talking about his friends in school who were all, again, this is now he's gone back to like talking about his own childhood, about people he used to know as a kid. And all of his friends were super like or all of his friends in like high school were like super tough, cool kids who worked on oil rigs. He starts telling the story about how one of his friends got into a fight with their

swimming coach and they were both cool, like super cool. And then Jordan forgets to tell us the end of the story and talks about how Jocko Willink is cool too. What? He's just like, he's just like talking about his cool friends and oil rigs, how they got into a fight with the coach and they're both so manly and you know who else is manly is the Navy SEAL with a podcast, Jocko Willink, who again, I'm not, I have no particular opinions on Jocko.

I'm not attacking him. Jordan Peterson just goes into a rant about how cool he is because he's like Jordan's friends who got into fights with their swimming coach. For the record, I don't think Jocko Willink ever got into a fight with a swimming coach. That I would, I would believe you here's the clip. You're going to want to do it on your own terms and our school system is very bad at facilitating that. In fact, it does everything.

It was even designed at the beginning to not facilitate that because our school system was based on the Prussian military model and the Prussians who also trained the Japanese to establish their school systems. By the way, they wanted to produce obedient factory workers and so first off, this is what after he's randomly talking about how his friends were super cool oil rig workers who got into fistfights with their coach. This is what leads to him talking about like modern education and how broken it is. Like the idea that it was better back when kids would just work on oil rigs and get into

fistfights with coaches and now it's, they're all Prussian school modeled in terrible and like everybody's being trained to be obedient drones. Wait a second, he likes that though. Well, no, he doesn't because I, that's, that's a great point Cody, but he doesn't now. So what's important is that he's made another falsifiable statement here, right? That Japan based their schooling on the Prussian model. Yeah. Now the Prussian based on, but like we're taught by them, like trained by them to do

it. The Prussian model is a thing. Japan did not base their schooling system on Prussian learning alone, nor did the Prussians just like teach them how to do schooling from 1873 to 1890. Japan reformed their educational system and they didn't do it just like by bringing in people to teach them how to do it. They didn't base their, their new education system on any one nation's methods. And what they did was the very reasonable thing.

They adopted a number of different methods from several countries and then tested a bunch of them out at the same time so that they could learn through trial and error what seemed to work best. They did in fact study and test aspects of the Prussian system. They also tested and studied aspects of the American and French education systems. Almost like they didn't just want to create robotic drones, but we're really just like trying to solve the difficult problem of like what works for an educational system. Prussia, the late 1800s, very successful country.

So is the United States and so is France. And so they're kind of like being like, well, these three countries are succeeding in ways we want to succeed. Let us test aspects of their educational systems to see what works for us, which is not what Peterson's saying. That's no. Because he's wrong about everything. No.

He said the Prussians train them how to do the school, which was based on, and that's, he does this all the time. It is interesting. It's such a, he's like, it's so maddening because like clearly he reads a lot. He's a reader. He reads a lot. Yeah. From members like most of us do bits and pieces of what he read.

Yeah. Like he like kind of absorbs a little bit or like these two bits that he like moves around so that they align with whatever he is thinking at the time and like just says like, as fact this thing is like, well, 10% of that was right. Yeah. You're right. The Japanese did test out aspects of the Prussian education system, but you're missing what actually happened in Japan in that period.

Right. There's like, okay, subject and object are right. The verbs are all wrong. Yeah. I think a thing that is kind of worth highlighting here is the denial of agency of Japanese people. Like the way he frames it, the Prussians came in and taught them how to build an education system that would train their children into like little robots and that that's what happened. As opposed to the empire of Japan, exercising considerable agency, going out and testing

different methods to try and reform their system in a way that would allow them to achieve their goals, which is what happened. Right. Yeah. Because Japan is famously a country that exercises quite a bit of agency. Yeah. But like, yeah. And like they did the thing that he would support.

Like you test this, you test this, you test this and you find the best result. And like, is he trying to make a connection to what he was talking about earlier with like Japanese men? Yeah. I think so. I think he is. Like that's why he brought it up, right? Yeah.

Even though like there are, you might argue a significant thing that happens about 60 years after Japan reforms this educational system that leads to kind of some social breaks that might be more relevant for looking at things that are happening to young Japanese men in 2022. Not that his, not that what he said earlier about Japanese men in 2022 was accurate either. Right. Right. But I don't know, Jordan.

I think something happened in the mid 40s that might have caused a break in the way Japanese society handled stuff like education. I mean, anything, that's, that's entire stuff. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Dr. Peterson. So anyway, he's just, this doesn't have a huge thing to do with his other claims.

It's just like he's, he's always wrong. Anyway, here's another clip. Don't sell yourself short and don't let the people who demand slavish obedience, you know, that puppy dog style of living, don't let them short circuit your future because, you know, you're not inclined towards that kind of obedience. That's actually a virtue, not a vice, even though it's punished in, well, certainly in schools, especially by edible female teachers, although there's no shortage of men who are participating in that as well.

Yeah. What? Yeah. In my man. I just knew based on like the, the like cool split screen thing, the super cool that is just so great visually that he was going to say some fuck shit. I love whenever, because you have these moments where like there's this little slip, he loses a little bit of composure and it's like, ah, you hate women, right?

Yeah. Like that's, yeah, you're really deeply angry at women. Yeah. That's fun. I mean that couple was like, yeah, like all the stuff he's been saying like this, that like dating above their status and like the fatherless, it's like single mothers and mass shooters, like all this stuff is like, man, you're just so deeply angry at the concept of women.

That's pretty cool. I think. But also like it's only, what he's talking about too is just like, you know, obedience is like, you know, nobody is a slave to blah, blah, blah, it's like, but you would disagree with that if it was about something you agree with. You would be like, well, no, you like, you, you follow orders, you like, you do this, you do this, you find your place and you like, you follow the steps in your hierarchy to do X and Y.

It's just so just his, it's like context ideology dependent and it's just fun to see him pretend that he doesn't, he doesn't think that way. Yeah. So what else is fun to pretend, Cody? Some edible mother. It's fun to pretend that we could ever live in a world without the products and services that support this podcast. But of course we couldn't.

There is no life without these products and services. Existence itself is meaningless without whatever comes up next as soon as my stop talking. During the summer of 2020, some Americans suspected that the FBI had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations and you know what, they were right. I'm Trevor Aronson and I'm hosting a new podcast series, Alphabet Boys. As the FBI sometimes you got to grab the little guy to go after the big guy. Each season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of Alphabet Boys, we're revealing how the FBI spied on protesters

in Denver. At the center of this story is a raspy voiced cigar smoking man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. He's a shark and on the gun badass way and nasty sharks. He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. And Alphabet Boys on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based

on actual science? The problem with forensic science in the criminal legal system today is that it's an awful lot of forensic and not an awful lot of science. And the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price. Two death sentences in a life without parole. My youngest, I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. I'm Molly Herman. Join me as we put forensic science on trial to discover what happens when a match isn't

a match and when there's no science in CSI. How many people have to be wrongly convicted before they realize that this stuff's all bogus. It's all made up. Head to CSI on trial on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lance Bass and you may know me from a little band called NSYNC. What you may not know is that when I was 23, I traveled to Moscow to train to become the youngest person to go to space.

And when I was there, as you can imagine, I heard some pretty wild stories. But there was this one that really stuck with me about a Soviet astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down. It's 1991 and that man Sergei Krekalev is floating in orbit when he gets a message that down on earth, his beloved country, the Soviet Union, is falling apart. And now he's left offending the Union's last outpost. This is the crazy story of the 313 days he spent in space, 313 days that changed the world.

Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Ah, we're back and I hope that your lives have been filled with meaning. The only meaning you will ever experience. Only means nothing. Your own children mean nothing. Love is but a vapor in the air. But the products and services that support this podcast are God in a very real way, Cody.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. No disagreement. Cool. So the very next thing that happens in the Jordan Peterson TV show is this very, this really weirdly sharp cut followed by the title text, can men be controllable monsters? Oh, he loves talking about this stuff.

Oh my God. Yeah. It's a question that only psychopaths ask themselves. So you got to accept the monsters aspects of you and be a monster in order to be whatever it is. He'll say it. It's fine. I know exactly what he's going to say.

He talks about young in Nietzsche a lot and it's honestly, it's not very interesting. There's a long kind of rambling rant here, but I want to play where it leads him to. This is him kind of like reaching his conclusions. You might have fantasies of revenge, sometimes very violent. If you're extremely sexually deprived or maybe not even that extremely, you'll have sexual fantasies. And if you're revengeful and look up, bro and feeling oppressed and then you might have violent sexual fantasies.

That's a part of you. So let's say that's the shadow. I just want to point out that he only looked into the camera when he was like, violence. Sexual fantasies. Yeah. Oh God, it's all like this. And there's a cut coming up in which the screen splits in three, focusing on Jordan's hands, then a close shot of his face, and then the wide shot of him sitting in a chair.

Nothing interesting happens during this. He does not make any points. There is no like big conclusion he builds to. I just the editing decisions in this video are text on screen. Just that. Oh, oh, scroll back. Why don't we just play that segment? Let's give Cody a little where that comes from.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a head. Oh, it's a head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The text is women want a tamable beast. Yeah. There we go. Yeah.

He loves that. Yeah. It's amazing. So his train of thought, as that might key you went on, leads him to another Disney movie. Thank God. And here's him talking about that. A story of beauty and the beast.

And so in the Disney version, which does a very nice job of laying this out, beauty is an entirely commendable female. She's attractive and wise, intelligent, ethical, devoted to her father, but not in the pathological way, independent. She has everything going for her. She's the target of the advances of a narcissistic Machiavellian Gaston, who's like a parody of masculinity. He's sort of, you might think about him as the, as the feminist patriarchal nightmare

in animated form. Said no one ever. What? What are you doing? Well, he's not a nightmare so much as a caricature. He's a movie. It's a movie. Isn't it?

It's a movie and he's Gaston is the bad guy because he's everything Jordan Peterson wants a man to be. He's deeply concerned with hierarchy. He is unable to consider like the validity of other people's experiences. He is deeply anti-woke. He is he is he extracts unthinkingly from the world around him in order to increase his own like power and his own like relative level of wealth in society. Like he has everything Jordan Peterson thinks it's good for a man to be, which is what he's

a caricature. He's a caricature of you, Jordan. Right. Yeah. And like the movement you're supporting, it's so weird to also, it's funny. He and like, you know, the Shapirs of the world, they just can't like, whenever they see something like that, they can't, they like short circuit in a way because he wants to talk about beauty and the beast in a way that's like, oh, it's meaningful and it means this

and it demonstrates this and like, here's what it says about life and it's good. But there's this character who reminds me of me. So he's bad. Like the idea that they're like, he's scoffing at this aspect of it rather than beauty and the beast was even in the fucking, whenever that movie was made, like the sixties, right? Even in this less, this less woke era, the people who made beauty and the beast were specifically saying like masculinity, toxic masculinity of the sort that Peterson embodies is something to be mocked and derided.

Which is like what they hate the most, which is what they hate the most because the message of that is that like things get better for this like, like monstrous, aggressive individual because he's fundamentally capable of change and like listening to others and learning from them and everything good that happens to him and happens in the story is because he's capable of listening to and learning from a woman. Is he just like ramping up to critique like feminist movements like me too? Is that what he's doing? Yeah, I think that's kind of where we're, let's, let's, let's continue.

Okay. From where we left off. He's a bluster and although he's attractive, it's a superficial attractiveness that often characterizes narcissists and beauty is wise enough to actually prefer the beast. He's a beast, but also capable of standing up to Gaston and also prevailing, which is the advantage of the beast like element, but also capable of being enticed by beauty and maybe literally so into a, first of all, a productive orientation for his proclivity for aggression and also into a productive and generous relationship and beauty being

a wise woman and oriented towards the good and characterized by a positive relationship with her father, which is stressed by the way in that movie, wants a tameable beast. And first off, we'll continue in a second. I, it's been a minute since I've seen that. Isn't one of the points of it that he's actually like not super violent? Like he makes like big threats and he blusters, but he never like hurts her, nor is he a violent threat to the rest of the village? So he's only a violent threat to Gaston briefly at the end because he's like bringing a mob

of people. Yeah. That was so interesting to see him be like, yeah, it's like, he's capable of changing. She has to control his beastliness in order to defeat this narcissist. And like, right. I actually think the point of it is that he's not really a beast. He just looks scary because of a curse, but is actually kind of a decent man with some emotional trouble who needs to work through his problems.

Yeah. Like he becomes that not the actual point of the story that he's not a gentle by the end. It's so weird that he led with that. I'm just saying update to dating profile must be four years older than me and be a hashtag timable beast. Be a tamable beast. That's right.

Be a tamable beast. I'm sad because I feel like a lot of guys would be like, that's me. Oh yeah. Finally. Finally. There she is. Why don't you keep playing for a little bit longer here? We did the rest of the thing that you marked.

No, no, no. I want to get to the point where he talks about how women like erotic literature. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's do this. I've seen before before. Sorry.

Before we before we play this, I have seen again, all this stuff is stuff he's talked about like 90 million times on other podcasts and vlogs and stuff. I've seen him talk about what he's about to talk about with his daughter. Productive and competent, but also capable of enough aggression to keep the real monsters at bay. And that's a very narrow needle eye for women to thread because you need a man who's aggressive enough to keep the real monsters away, but simultaneously agreeable enough, empathic enough, aggressive enough to be good with kids, to be good with her, and to share.

And so that's a very fine line. And the taming of the beast is in some sense the negotiated establishment of that line. So there's a book called a billion wicked thoughts that was written by Google engineers who are quite reliable social scientists when they put their minds to it, engineer types because they tend to follow the data independent of any political inclination and they looked at patterns of pornography use among men and women, drawing on literally billions of data points, a billion wicked thoughts. And they found something that had been reported previously, but this was on a very large scale

that men use visual pornography. I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone, but that women's preferred pornographic art form is literary, the women like stories. And they analyze the canonical female pornographic fantasy. And it's basically, surprise, surprise, 50 shades of gray. And so the Google engineers identified five categories of men that were often the feature target for the romantic and erotic adventures of the female protagonist in the pornographic stories, pirate, vampire, surgeon, billionaire, and one I can never remember, but you get

the idea. Okay, now pause it here. It said werewolf, it's werewolf, it's werewolf, the one he cannot remember is werewolf. Yeah. It's on the screen. Make sure you put werewolf in there and like, there's so much that's wrong here. Number one, I don't know, obviously, a number of women find it attractive when a man is like muscular or strong or like large, there's something comfortable, especially if you're

smaller about that, that is like a thing that occurs in the world. But it's not because those men are tameable beasts. And in fact, I would argue that is in my experience, it tends to be deeply off putting if you feel like somebody is barely holding in check their aggressiveness. Like it's nice to be with someone if you're like you feel like, oh, if something bad happens, this person will react well and can help me stay safe and can protect people around me. That is an attractive trait. It's like if a fire breaks out and you happen to have someone there who has experienced

fighting fires and they put the fire out, that is attractive. It is attractive to know, oh, that person can handle themselves in a dangerous situation. All people find that attractive, men and women. It's always an attractive trait for very obvious reasons. Very few people find attractive is feeling, wow, this person could fly off the handle and become a dangerous, violent person at any second. Yes. Right.

Because what he's talking about are fantasies. He's used that word many times. That's what he's talking about. And in these fantasies, they're not like, pirate. It's not a violent, angry pirate with a short fuse who could hurt her. It's the charming erudite who's, you know, he's violent. He's doing a violent job, but he's not inherently a violent man. And when you get to know, it's the, there's a reason why an entire generation of women

in the West fell in love with Kerry Elwes and fucking, the princess, the princess. Because he's, yeah, he's this pirate. But fundamentally, the instant you talk to him, he doesn't, he's not this unchecked violent bad man. He's a deeply urbane, erudite, charming individual. And that's incredibly attractive. Yeah. I mean, looking for a man four years older, hashtag terrible beast, but also a literal

pirate for a literal werewolf. Not picky. Again, the two deeply handsome men in who have a generation of men and women fell in love with him, the princess diary, Indigo Montoya and Kerry Elwes is the dread pilot, the princess bride is the dread pirate Roberts are both like deeply thoughtful and emotionally connected. Yeah. And yeah, gentle, very gentle and merciful as a general rule. Yeah.

They treat Buttercup wonderfully the entire time, like they're all it's just what a fucking I'm sorry. It's incredible. It's incredible. But also like even his is the thing he's citing, he's like, surprise, surprise, it's 50 shades of gray. And I'm not, I have not read 50 shades of gray, I've like read funny reviews of it a little bit, but like, I'm pretty sure the gray character, but the main character's name is Christian

Gray, which is hilarious. Yeah. The billionaire guy. But like he's not like a violent, vicious man. It's an arrangement that they have made. Yeah. A consensual sexual arrangement. It's a sexual arrangement where she feels safe in that relationship to open herself

up and feel and be vulnerable in that scenario. It's not like, ooh, he's like a fucking violent, like sadist, and I'm gonna, but I'm gonna tame him. Like that's not what it's about, right? There's this, there's this thing and we're, we're gonna tread into some dicey territory. You can find a number of men who wrote, particularly back in the 70s, really bad essays about the fact that rape is a really common sexual fantasy, right? That a lot of sexual fantasies involve assault and domination in that way.

Right. They wrote a terrible essay, Hunter Thompson wrote a terrible essay. And as somebody who has repeatedly interviewed like people who professionally, sometimes in a clinical sense, help people engage with fantasies like that, part of the reason why those are so common is they allow people who have been victimized to take power and agency in a situation that was deeply traumatic to them and kind of recreate and explore that, that experience while being able to take agency and control this time. And that is a, that is a reason why that is a thing that people, but I don't think a guy

like Jordan is capable of understanding that. Instead he interprets it as women actually want this, a diversion of this to happen to them rather than like, well, people who are traumatized may seek to explore the thing that traumatized them in a way in which they have more agency. Yeah, it's kind of fucked up that he's a psychologist. It's really fucked up that he's a psychologist. This is a deeply stud of studied like piece of like sexual psychology. A lot has been written by clinicians about why people do the things in some of this role

playing that they do. Like this is a thing people study academically that I don't think he's ever read about because it would, it would make him uncomfortable. Yeah. So, a little bubble, I feel like he said, these had like tweets about this, like about, I feel like it was about Muslims and like desiring like, I don't even want to find it. It doesn't matter. No, it's not.

It's just, again, he's, he's, he's wrong about everything. Just like he's wrong about werewolves because he forgot them, which is funny because that's like, look, if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're going to list things that are common in erotic fiction, like werewolf is going to be the top of everybody's werewolf and pirate. Right. Werewolves and pirates. Like, I wonder, like, because there's like, he's like, and then there's a fourth one and

I can't remember it. And then text on screens that werewolf. I wonder if they didn't know, like, part of me feels like, because he, I think he just like probably talks and then leaves and isn't like privy to like what it turns out as he's not like in the editing room, you know? Yeah. There's two texts here. It's just some fucking person got to watch this and cut to a shot of his hands or whatever.

So I feel like the editor, like guest pirates vampire werewolves, too. And that's why it says werewolves, not because that's what he couldn't think of, but because the editor had to fill it in. Yeah. It's, you know, what I would like to do with Jordan Peterson, if I could, I would like to sit him down and I would like to make him watch the movie Wolf Cop. And I would like him to interpret the film Wolf Cop, particularly the scene in which the main character bursts dick force first into werewolf.

It's the most incredible scene in cinematic history. Nothing has ever compared to it. God, I love Wolf Cop. I am just now hearing of this. Have you not seen Wolf Cop? He turns cock first into a werewolf, Cody, and you see it all. What the fuck? It is amazing.

You see everything. Wolf Cop, watch it. I'm checking out the trailer right now. It is through his car. What the fuck? He sure did. He's a very drunk cop. The main character is a drunk cop.

Wait. Is that why he threw up? Yes. Because he's wasted. He is like, he is like the sheriff in Jaws level alcoholic. It's awesome. And then the best thing about it is after he becomes a werewolf, he doesn't stop being a cop.

He throws both 100% werewolf and 100% cop at the same time, which is groundbreaking, Cody. I mean, that's why he's the Wolf Cop, right? Yes, exactly. Wow. Anyway, let's get back to it. Anyway. Vampire and Wolf Cop.

And Wolf Cop. It's very funny. So he goes into this misunderstanding of this Google study to say that it's really important that all of these preferred female fantasy men were like these these fantasies remained in place during Me Too. Oh. Like that's that he thought he think that's a big deal. We did it.

We got there. We did it. I knew it. I knew it. Anyway, here's how he describes the Me Too movement. Just taking a deep sigh. All male will is potentially corrupted by power and to be regarded with suspicion and legal regulation.

Well, that's far too extreme and preposterous. And so what you have is a compensatory fantasy emerge that's highlighting the value that's not being properly attended to by the culture. And it possesses people in an unconscious manner, you might say, in an attempt to bring them back to the middle. And anyways, that's all part of the tamable monster. And is it also the is a journey? Hand motions during that exact part or just spectacularly distracting?

It's his need to like make these things complex and deeper than like it was easy for men to get away with assaulting women and they didn't like that. It's so frustrating like listening to him talk about this stuff is like, no, man, just like it. People don't like to be assaulted, Jordan. It's like the like why me to happen is extremely simple. It was easy for powerful men to get away with abusing women and the women didn't like that. They didn't like it.

And also a lot of men didn't like it because it's fucked up and horrible. Like people didn't like people don't like that. It's bad. Some people did and those people are bad. Yeah. Those people are terrible and we wanted them out of our society. No, no, no. We need to tame them.

Look, you can even phrase that in like a stupid mythic term where like fundamentally society is all sheep and wolves and the wolves were preying on the sheep, but dressing as the wolf. It's the evil uncle and the crown and I don't know, whatever. I'm not going to try to do that. Like you can do a better job of this than be coding. That's what he would say. Yeah.

So after this, he restates for like the fifth fucking time that a man who can be aggressive but also knows how not to be aggressive is the most useful kind of man, which is like pointless. Yes. Aggression is sometimes necessary. So it is, it is good to be capable of aggression and also know when that's not appropriate. Like obviously that's the same as saying like it's good to know when you should use a kitchen knife as opposed to putting the kitchen knife away so you don't accidentally

cut somebody. Well, yes, Jordan, it is good to not just swing a kitchen knife around. There's a time and a place for that knife. One knows this. Also the same is true of women where it's you need to be aggressive sometimes and other times it's inappropriate to be aggressive. That is true of all human beings. Like sometimes human beings will need to be aggressive, but most of the time they won't

need to be and knowing the difference is critical, obviously, Jordan. I don't know. His episode peters out to a completely nonsensical closing statement because he was not prepared. He's a way more useful man than one who cannot do that for lack of ability or because he's imposed or incorporated arbitrary moral constraints on his perceptions and behavior that stop him from, well, from being able to say no, for example, because saying no is an act of aggression. Because what no means, no means stop doing that or something you do not like will absolutely

100% happen to you and so without that, there's no capacity to say no and well, if you can't say no, you can't negotiate, you can't move forward, you can't live your own life, you can't put limits on Machiavellians, you can't oppose narcissists, you can't emerge unscathed from people who use empathy in a manipulative way. You can't put constraints on a badly behaving two-year-old and so no and aggression, those are an integrated aggression, those are pretty much exactly the same thing. What? What?

Yes. Pretty much exactly the same thing is inherently inactive by it is impressive to say no. He's saying that because like you can't say no without the threat of force, but for example, the other night my friends were going out to dance and they asked if I wanted to go and I said no and you know what I didn't was not present at all was the fact that I might harm them physically if they asked me again, right? There was no threat, it was just I was asked if I wanted to do a thing and I stated that I did not.

Right, because like he's like assuming that like it's not just like the no is violence, it's the initial question is violence. Yeah, everything is violence. It's just violence, meaning violence. And so rejecting that is also implicit violence. And also like as a general even because he's obviously means a lot of this is like in a sexual way like if a man asks something of a woman and she says no, that's a violence on her part too because obviously she can only back up the fact that like she doesn't

want him to do something if she's willing to use force, which is nonsense because I think is for the most part in human society when like people ask, do you want to do like hey, do you want to make out or whatever or have some sort of like physical arrangement? And the other person says no as a general rule, most people are like, oh, OK. And there's not a threat of violence because most people don't want to be rapists. I do feel like that's probably one hopes. That is somewhat of a statement of faith on my part, but yeah, I mean, according to Jordan, that's not true.

Yes. What are the Jordan? That's not true. It's the threat of violence on both sides. Period. What a fucking. Also like just what a weird way to end. But like it's just again, it's one of those things where he's like he's talking these

grandiose terms and in some ways just misrepresenting things and saying fucked up like like hard lined rules about how everybody is and how everybody should act. But what he's talking about like almost is like, yeah, it's good to set boundaries and be able to say no with which OK, yeah, but also saying no is inherently not an act of violence. Right. No, like it's like it's like packaged and all this other stuff is like it would be it would be fair to say that like sometimes because of because of the fact that many men have

bad boundaries and are aggressive in an unhinged way. Women may need to know how to say no in a in a way that is aggressive and that implies a degree of threat because they may be in a situation where they are themselves threatened. That's a fair statement. But also number one, that's not ever going to be generally true. And number two, we should be moving as a society to a situation in which people don't have to say no as with the threat of aggression behind it, like because that's bad. That's always a bad thing when that happens.

Anyway, Jordan Peterson, I mean, he's talked about this before in terms of how you can't like is it like you can't you can't control crazy women because you can't be violent with them. You're a man. I can the threat of violence is there. But if you're a woman, it's not so you can't do anything. So there's nothing to control women. Yes.

You're the second guy. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like he's not a good person, Cody. I think maybe maybe that's true. I think that those emails and how we treated his patients is pretty indicative that he's not a very good person, aside from everything else he's ever said and how we've used the world.

Yeah. Not a fan, not a fan, not a fan, Cody. You know what I am a fan of. What's that? Is you. Yeah. Yeah. Me too.

Cody. Sometimes. Where? Where? Because I've never met you before. This is the first time we're talking. If I wanted to find things that you make and or create on the Internet, where would I find those?

Oh, so many places or just a few. YouTube, I have a show called Some More News. Wow. And we're all the podcasts are a show called Even More News. Wow. We support either of those, patreon.com slash Some More News. And I've got their websites, social media with my name, Cody Johnston is there. Your name is Cody John Amazing.

Twitter and Instagram and my band, The Hot Shapes will be available quite soon for all listeners to hear our album about. I'm not even going to joke about it. Cody, I am as excited now as the mighty, mighty Boss Tones were when they realized that there was a cultural tragedy to exploit in order to sell an album. An entire album about an entire album. My God. My God.

Not even like one song. Not even a whole album. Like if there'd been one song, I'd be like, well, you know, it was a whatever misguided, but I get it. Like you, you, you felt the need to express yourself. Okay. Whole album. My God.

Anyway, find the guys from the mighty, mighty Boss Tones and hit them or like, or I go up to them and say, no, yeah, you know who didn't do shit like this is drop kick murpies. They just beat the fuck out of Nazis on stage because they're okay, all right. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Alphabet Boys is a new podcast series that goes inside undercover investigations. In the first season, we're diving into an FBI investigation of the 2020 protests.

It involves a cigar-smoking mystery man who drives a silver hearse. And inside his hearse was like a lot of guns. But are federal agents catching bad guys or creating them? He was just waiting for me to set the date, the time, and then for sure he was trying to get it to happen. Listen to Alphabet Boys on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know Lance Bass is a Russian-trained astronaut?

That he went through training in a secret facility outside Moscow, hoping to become the youngest person to go to space? Well, I ought to know because I'm Lance Bass. And I'm hosting a new podcast that tells my crazy story and an even crazier story about a Russian astronaut who found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down. With the Soviet Union collapsing around him, he orbited the Earth for 313 days that changed the world. Listen to the last Soviet on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. What if I told you that much of the forensic science you see on shows like CSI isn't based on actual science, and the wrongly convicted pay a horrific price? Two death sentences in a life without parole. My youngest? I was incarcerated two days after her first birthday. Listen to CSI on trial on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.