Behind The Tech with Kevin Scott - Dio Gonzalez: Mixed Reality is becoming part of our day-to-day life!

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

Mixed Reality innovator paints a picture for us about a big shift happening today. Learn how this cutting edge tech is evolving from novelty entertainment to an integral part of our daily lives.

So they made us draw lines, not even curved lines, it was just straight lines, and they explained us how to do it, like you define the formula, then you program it, and then ta-da, lines. And that was like my aha moment, and my mind exploded, but that part when we were able to draw pictures, that's when I'm like, that's it, I'm in. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Behind the Tech. I'm your host, Kevin Scott, Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft. In this podcast, we're going to get behind the tech.

We'll talk with some of the people who made our modern tech world possible and understand what motivated them to create what they did. So join me to maybe learn a little bit about the history of computing and get a few behind-the-scenes insights into what's happening today. Stick around. Hello and welcome to the show. I'm Christina Warren, Senior Cloud Developer Advocate at Microsoft. And I'm Kevin Scott. Today we'll be talking with Dio Gonzalez. Dio is so inspiring. There's her technical work on virtual and mixed reality, which I think is really amazing. And it's this whole element of constantly working to build tools to help people unlock their creativity. And she's also a mentor and an advocate for girls and women in tech.

Yeah, she's so much great work and such an inspiring person. She has this amazing story, like so many of the folks that we chat with here on the podcast. So let's talk to Dio and find out what she's been up to. All right, coming up next, Dio Gonzalez. Dio is originally from Venezuela. She attended Purdue University, where she helped to set up its first virtual reality facility. She's worked in the animation industry at Pixar and DreamWorks Animation. She also worked for Unity Labs before joining Microsoft in December 2017 as a principal software architect in central engineering.

Welcome, Dio. Hi, thank you. You and I met a few years ago at Grace Hopper. I actually took your portrait for this site that I do also call Behind the Tech. Yes, I know. Can you believe that? I almost like, I hadn't done that connection when I joined Microsoft, and it took me like a while. It's like, oh yeah, that's true. I've met Kevin before.

Yeah, and it was sort of the same thing with me. Like, in my mind, like, you were still a principal engineer at Unity, and I'm like, what? She works for Microsoft now? I know. So, like, we're super excited to have you here at Microsoft and to have you on the podcast today. So, I'd love to start with you and your story. You're from Venezuela, right? Venezuela, yes. And so how did you get into computer science technology in the first place? Yeah, yeah. I have my story, which is that was in sixth grade in 1987, a long time ago.

So they didn't have computer science in the school, but somehow they had a company that was giving classes on computer science, like pitch this to the school. And the school was like, OK, whoever wants to and can afford it and all, you can sign up for this computer class after school. So I signed up. I'm like, OK, yeah, yeah, let me check it out, let me know. And so it was with those, I guess it was the Macintosh too, those old Apples. Oh, very nice. Yeah, that was probably my very first exposure to a computer as well.

So that's the very first time. I didn't have a computer at home. I had never seen one. Oh, nice. Yes, yes. The thing is, the very last class was about this concept of pixels. And so they made us draw lines, not even curved lines. It was just straight lines. And they explained us how to do it. Like, you define the formula, then you program it, and then ta-da, lines.

And that was like my aha moment, and my mind exploded. I was like, yeah. Like, it was, like, fascinating for me. Like, you can, like, a formula translate that into a picture. That's, like, that's just, like, unbelievable. Like, until then, it was like, yeah, computers are cool, you know, very fancy calculators, right? But that part, when we were able to draw pictures, that's when I'm like, that's it, I'm in. And so ever since then, I was like, I'm going to be a programmer and I'm going to do something related to putting pictures on the screen. That's awesome.

I've always wondered how many kids have that experience because for me it was sort of similar. Like, I grew up right when console arcade games had started to come out. So, like, this sort of Space Invaders and Asteroids, like the vector graphics things. And they were so engaging, and I was so curious about how it was that you made something like that, that that was my attraction to computers. It was like this gravitational field that sucked me in. And so, it's like, you know, similar to yours. And I just wonder, I've always wondered how many kids get pulled in that way because, like, they use some piece of software or, like, you know, they get their imagination sparked by this visual thing.

And then all of a sudden, like, they're down in the guts of the computer. Yes, exactly. I think that's what, like, many of us have had is when it's like, my goodness, my imagination, my creativity, I can do so much with this. And also that part of, like, something that is just, yeah, numbers, bits, okay, whatever, you know, wires. Then you'll see, like, whoa, look at what this created. Yeah, but it's sort of like all of the bits and the wires and the numbers are a means to the creative end, right? Exactly. Yeah, that's awesome. So ever since then, I'm like, okay, I'm going to be a computer programmer.

So at some point, you had to make what must have been a huge decision to leave Venezuela and come to the United States to study computer science. Like, how did you make that decision? Yeah, Well, again, I wanted to do computer graphics. So, in Venezuela, undergrad is actually five years mandatory. So, the last year, and you had to write a thesis, you know. Last year, they ask you, you are required to select two areas of specialization. And for me, of course, was computer graphics. So I'm like, yeah. So that was the years when OpenGL had just started. It was like brand new.

And you would get those CDs, you know, these are the OpenGL drivers installed. These are the good ones. So that's... Good times. I know. So I wanted to do computer graphics. So I had already done, you know, my one year in undergrad. My thesis was about, you know, doing interactive storytelling, and I had programs on kids, you know, stories.

So unfortunately, in Venezuela, the computer graphics industry was minimal. And then there were no graduate programs. And so I worked several years saving money. And then, yeah, I applied for school here, Purdue University. And so I was super lucky that, yeah, I got accepted and all. And so you, after Purdue, you wound up teaching games programming in Singapore? Yes. How did that happen?

Yeah, yeah, because, you know, my master's degree was in virtual reality. So that was my whole job, my whole work, research, and my thesis. At that time, there was no Oculus, right? No Vive, no Windows Mixed Reality, no Unity. So there was no really industry in virtual reality, just a very few startups. So you had to stay in academia to do that. And so that was the years after 9-11, where it was still very tough to be an international student in the U.S. So even with a legal visa and all authorized to work, it was really difficult. Companies would not hire international

students. So, I just sent my resume. I put a website and sent my resume pretty much everywhere. I saw like everywhere. And they called me from Singapore. And I'm like, sure. Oh, what an adventure. They flew me for the interview. And they interviewed me. Then I came back to the U.S. and then they offered me the job. And so, yeah, I went. So what I loved about that is, again, I wanted again to perhaps do a PhD or continue again in virtual reality, right? That's what the whole idea. So I was there, yeah, in the digital media school, teaching games programming. And I specialized myself there in 3D worlds

because that was the time with Second Life, you know, and this thing about 3D worlds and virtual worlds was starting. So I became that person over there. And did you enjoy teaching? Yes. However, after two years, I realized, because I met colleagues that are really teachers at heart. They're like amazing teachers, and I admire them.

But I realized what I'm really enjoying is geeking out and talking about things that I love and then having a conversation. And so that's when I decided, like, that's when I quit and I became just a full-time researcher and stopped teaching. There are just so many things that you could have chosen. And, like, virtual reality is, you know, like, at the time that you chose it was really at its sort of early stages of development. There weren't, like, all of these VR things that we're all excited about now. Yeah, yeah. I was just, like, super lucky because I was at Purdue. I'm like, okay.

Again, I knew I wanted to do computer graphics and, of course, Pixar. And that was, like, yeah. I was just like super lucky because I was at Purdue. I'm like, okay. Again, I knew I wanted to do computer graphics and, of course, Pixar. And that was like inspiration. And so I was just looking around, meeting professors and all. And then I found out, a friend of mine told me, he's like, you know that they're building for the first time a virtual reality center at Purdue. And I'm like, really? So I went there. They were just like literally putting bricks in there. And so I went and talked to the professor. It's like, hey, I'm looking for

visas. Can I just talk to you and see? And then the professor that was there in charge of that, they hired her. She had finished her PhD and was in charge of building and running the center. I met with her. And then she starts telling me that, yeah, yeah, we do here, you know, virtual reality and all. Do you know, you know, because I studied with her, you know, Carolina Cruz Neira. And I was like, oh, my God, yes. Because I knew Carolina Cruz Neira is a Venezuelan American. She has three nationalities, American, Spanish, and Venezuelan.

She grew up in Venezuela. She has a computer engineering degree from Venezuela, and she is a pioneer in virtual reality in that she invented the CAVE, projection-based virtual reality. Oh, that's awesome. Right now she's running her own centers now. Now she's in Arkansas running her own virtual reality center. Yeah. And so my eyes were like, oh my God. She's like, oh yeah, I worked with her. And I got excited because in my computer graphics classes in Venezuela, they had told us about her. It's like, hey, this is a Venezuelan.

She invented the cave. And so I'm like, can I work for you? So she also saw that I was excited and also she hired me. Oh, that's fantastic. And so that's how I got into virtual reality. And so now Carolina, I call her my academic grandmommy. And it's funny because when I see her, she's like, hey, grandmommy. That's great. So at some point you made the jump to working in industry.

So you were a character animation engineer at Pixar. Yes. So tell me a little bit about that. I can imagine that must have been a super cool job. Yes, that was amazing, amazing. So I worked first actually at DreamWorks Animation. I was there for almost five years. I had to apply three times because I messed up, of course, like everybody. So at the third time, they accepted me.

And so I was a character animation engineer. Awesome. And so what does that mean? Like what does a character animation engineer do? Yeah, we write the software that, you know, the super popular animation software packages in the industry, Maya, 3D Studio, Blender, which is open source. So the studios write their proprietary one. They don't buy that. So we were the engineers that write that software in the studio.

And then my clients, my users were the character, specifically because I was doing character animation. My clients were the character TVs as well, that these are character technical directors that are the in-between, that then they set up all the tools, the original for the animators. So we serve both the animators for the interface, but the character TVs for that. And so you would do special things for those technical directors? Yes. They say like I need to model hair in this particular way for this panda.

Yes. So they would say I need the specific controls and all. So I loved it by the way. I can talk about that forever. So you know what the way that a character works in an animation, I'm going to simplify it. It's with a rig. So a rig is a dependency graph, right? And so you have nodes and you evaluate those nodes. And so the character TDs are the ones that write those nodes and connect them so that way the character, you know, the panda, the dragon, et cetera, can move or can have the freedom of movement that the animators want.

And so we, the engineers, had to provide that way of, you know, for the characters to enable that. So what we did a lot of is writing this library, right, of this dependency graph evaluation library, which actually is called Libby, and it actually won an Academy Technology Award. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, last year. And so we wrote that core. And then, of course, write the whole software on top of it to then have the animators and the riggers do that. Are there any interesting characters, like in particular, that you worked on?

Yes, yes, because the movie that, because that was, at that time, by the way, this was all of the studios, because Pixar was doing the same. And when I worked at Pixar, by the way, I worked in the similar, you know, their equivalent, which is they were rewriting all of the software because the legacy one didn't take advantage of GPUs, right, and their computers these days.

So that's why we wrote everything from scratch. So that's why I'm super proud. The very first movie that completely used that software is How to Train Your Dragon 2. Nice. So that's the movie. Which is an amazing movie. Yes. That's the movie that, like, is super close to my heart, and I love it.

And so, again, because I'm the engineer and I know how it was done, like I admire because I see things that, you know, your regular viewer doesn't see. And I know they don't need to appreciate it, but I do. Like when I see the scenes with like hundreds of dragons, you know how hard that is? Like over a hundred rigs, film quality. And you know how many notes? Those are millions of notes in our dependency library, right? And in our library that have to be evaluated and then, you know, sent and animated.

So I'm really proud of that. That's awesome. You should be proud of it. I mean, it's always interesting to me being able to effectively bridge the gap between this very technical world because computer graphics, like all the way at the bottom of it, is like one of the more technical things in computer science and engineering. And then there's this brilliant creative part of building these animated films. And if you don't get both right, you really don't have like this compelling product in the end. Yes, exactly.

Sort of like emotion without like good technology, your vision is just sort of constrained in all of these ways. And like the technology without the emotion and the storytelling is just sort of bland and falls flat. Yes, exactly. Like I remember, you know, so the tools that we give to the character to this are scripting tools. So we write, of course, everything in C++, you know, the library.

And then we create bindings for any scripting language that then the character TDs we use. So I was that one. I was the Python binding girl. Very nice. Yeah, in the animation R&D team. And so I went through that. Like, the very first solution that we had was some commands there, like, that the TDs would have to create, you know, their notes and everything. And I do remember them saying, this is horrible, the very first one. This is, like, so limited. Like, I

cannot do this. And, you know, their evaluation notes and blah, blah, blah. So I had to do, we had to do a lot of iteration on that. Oh, that's fascinating. So the TDs would actually code in Python. Yes, yes. That's one thing that not many people know. The TDs are quite technical people in the animation industry. They're programmers with a lot of creativity because they know about lighting and animation and all,

but they are coders pretty much. Super, super interesting. So, at some point, you started working for Unity, and you were explicitly working on virtual reality there. Correct. So, tell us a little bit about that. Yes. So, what I work with is called Unity Labs. They are the branch of Unity that does experimentation.

So this is not the team. They have an R&D team that are the ones in charge of building and creating the editor and releasing it. So Unity Labs was about experimentation and see what new things we can do. So I started first in the VR team. And so, of course, being Unity, our focus there was how do we enable creators to really, you know, just unleash their imagination? Because, I mean, that's why I admire Unity. It's amazing what they've done. And that's their mission, like democratizing. They were the ones that said it first, democratizing, right, development. And they've done it like so, of course, and it's really true to their heart. So that's what we were doing first at Unity Labs.

Yeah, it's really amazing. A few years ago, I decided that I wanted to write a game, and I hadn't done game programming in 20 years. And so the entry point for me was Unity. I downloaded the SDK and, like, read through the docs, and, like, I wrote a little mobile game in no time flat. Yeah, in a couple of hours, right? Yeah, and that, to me, was shocking because what I remember from 20 years ago, it was not that easy. Yeah, exactly.

Like, when I was doing my master's, right, I was programming in C++ and all moving the camera and OpenGL and everything. And, you know, typically you're like, you create your scene and the scene graph, you have to create it by hand. There were scene libraries, but still you have to create every node and program and connect them and then move the camera. And I remember the problem that everybody had, which is first you create your scene and then you put the camera, okay, run, and it's black. Like, what?

It's because the camera is normally pointing, like, the wrong way. So you have to, like, really do the math. Okay, if the object is here, you have to do the math of where the camera, how do I, should I rotate it and all? Yeah. It always struck me as, like, when I was trying to do that sort of stuff, that it was a flavor of creativity, that the tools were so low level, it struck me that it was probably the same as if you told a painter that, like, they had to make, you know, like a five foot by five foot, you know, canvas painting, but they were only allowed to do it, like, one square inch at a time without being able to see anything else. Exactly. Like, it's just so hard. And like it's so much easier now.

Yeah, that's what I'm, these tools are amazing. Like my thesis was a networking library and scene synchronization, which you don't need to write that today, right? Because the software does it for you. So now people can think beyond that, right? So, yes, that's amazing what these tools have done. And so, like, maybe we should talk a little bit, like, we have people listening from all different parts of computer science and folks who aren't computer scientists. So, like, what is virtual reality?

Okay, yes. So, because I come from the academic world, I normally give the academic kind of definition. Created by a computer. And it has to meet the conditions of being in stereo. So that's one, like the user experience it in stereo, visual, or audio, right? And it has to be user perspective centric. And that means tracking. So when you move, the perspective of the world moves accordingly, updating. So, every time you move and all that, you see it from that point of view. So, that's the other... And all of that is intended so that, like, when you're in this virtual environment, it is intended to be immersive. Correct. Exactly. Exactly. So, a friend of mine,

I like using his metaphor, which is virtual reality is like reading a book. You get lost in it. You just open it and you totally disconnect from your current reality. You get in it. Right? And that's what virtual reality is. It's an immersion into something totally different. Mixed reality, augmented reality on the other side is then when you're like still anchored in reality and then you bring additional elements. Right. And mixed reality is what you've been working on here for the past couple of years, right? Yes. Yes. I started at Unity, actually. Oh, really? I'm super proud that my second year at Unity, my designer and I, both of us were like, okay, yes, we did virtual reality. But you know what? We really need to do mixed reality.

That's it. That's it. So the two of us were like, okay, done. We just created the mixed reality research group at Unity. So we just created it and then came here. And so what sparked that excitement for you? Like why do you think mixed reality is interesting? I believe that mixed reality is the one that has the potential to really affect our daily lives, our day-to-day lives,

because it's going to be integrated into everything that we do. What's an example? So I have several examples, and what I always think is the best ones are the ones that are useful for us. So I was saying, oh, yes, yesterday, in talking with one of the researchers here, I was telling him that one of my dream uses of mixed reality is for, you know,

it happens a lot in computer graphics and in many fields that people are very visual and they see things in their head, but it's hard to explain. Right. Many of us that you're talking to, and then your visualization immediately comes in front of that. So that is something that is useful. You see what I mean? Right. The other education, of course, because I went through that. You know when we're like math in college?

So when we learn parametric surfaces and you know, and volumes, those are really hard, right? And explaining that in a whiteboard was always tough. Like, I remember my professor with, like, different colors of markers and trying. That's a perfect scenario for mixed reality, right? The professor actually creating, and then everybody, all of the students seeing the volume, the surfaces in front of them. Yeah. One of the things that surprised me about mixed reality after I came to Microsoft and started seeing how our customers were using the HoloLens and mixed reality software was that there were these whole audiences of people who, in their work, didn't even use computers normally, but all of a sudden, like, you give them a HoloLens, and, like, that becomes their first computing device in the workplace. So folks who do maintenance, for instance, like, there are all of these applications where you can put on a HoloLens, and it sort of superimposes this mixed reality view on top of the thing, like whether it's a pipe or an elevator or like a complicated piece of machinery that you're doing maintenance on.

And you can pull up the manuals, like you can superimpose sort of visual representations of the performance of the thing, like metrics. Or instructions on how to fix it and all. And you can even use your communication tools while you're looking at the thing to call someone from technical support or an engineer to help you debug the thing that you're trying to fix. Yeah, right. And it becomes this incredibly powerful tool. Yeah, and then the expert actually doing annotations, 3D annotations to then help the person on site fix and everything.

That's actually what brought me here to Microsoft because that's brilliant. That's what I mean about mixed reality becoming part of our lives. Games and entertainment are awesome and always needed, right? And the storyteller in me, you know, from the animation industry will always be there. But a huge impact is when it's that and when it's just become part of our lives. And, yeah, that's amazing. In the enterprise sector, it's like a perfect one right now to start. Yeah, it's super cool.

It reminds me a little bit of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Like, I don't know whether you've ever read those Douglas Adams books, but the book mostly wasn't about the actual Hitchhiker's Guide. You know, it was about the adventures that people had in this sort of crazy universe. But, like, they had this thing called The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which was effectively a mixed reality application. Like, it was this thing that had all these annotations about where you were at and mostly comical senses.

But yeah, I'm always reminded of that whenever I'm thinking about MR. So, you know, let's change gears for a second. So you've, you had this really interesting experience growing up, like your, you know, where you went to school and like some of these experiences, like helped you have this determination and grit into getting into the field. Yes, I always knew that I was going to be a programmer, a computer engineer. And the funny thing, by the way, you know those standardized tests that they do to you at the end of high school to help you? So, of course, I did it, right? At every school.

And my tests were terrible for engineering. Yes, were bad. And so, I remember, like, reading it. I'm like, whatever. I already know. I'm going to be a programmer. That's so awesome. Right? And so, I like reading it and like, whatever, I already know I'm going to be a programmer. That's so awesome. Right? And so I go to the session.

I think I didn't even tell my parents because I don't remember having that conversation because my arrogant, you know, teenage mind was like, no, I'm going to be a programmer. I mean, come on. I don't think that's arrogance. That's determination. I don't need anybody to tell me. So I go to the session with the psychologist, like, you know, that she's like a counselor. And so she's like, okay, because the results say definitely really bad for engineering. You should go, I think it said communication or something like that. And so I go there and she's like, okay, have you given a thought of what you're going to do?

And I'm like, yeah, I know I'm going to be a computer engineer. And she was like, I still remember, she was like really trying not to like make me feel sad. And she's like, are you sure? I mean, have you considered? And she was looking at the test. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. You don't need to tell me anything.

Where do you think that determination came from? Like it's an amazing thing, actually. And it's probably served you well your entire life. Yeah, I thought about that a lot. And so, in hindsight, I have a couple of theories. I don't know if it's true. One is I was bullied a lot. I was your typical nerdy, shy kid that likes to read and likes math and everybody makes fun of, right? So I'm that typical kid. And so that made me develop like that thick

skin of like, whenever people tell me you cannot be something you cannot do, I'm like, whatever, they're just saying it. So I think that was one factor that actually I turned that anger into arrogance and I guess determination. You know, the other aspect, I find it fascinating and I wish somebody like studied that. So the school that I attended is a Catholic school, which was terrible in many things and good in other things. So that school used to be an all-girls school. And they only started accepting boys later when I joined. So throughout the whole years, girls were always the majority in classes than boys. And the nuns hated boys.

So I grew up listening to the opposite messaging, which is I grew up listening to the nuns saying, oh, boys are terrible. Boys don't study. Boys are lazy. You know, girls are, you know, girls are the ones that are, they're the smart and all. So for me, it was normal to be like women scientists and being good at mathematics. It was just normal that women are the best. So, I… That is very interesting.

Right. That's… So, anyway, that's a theory. And, like, because I find it fascinating because I see other, you know, other cases, you know. My friends that were in, you know, more like co-ed, more like balanced or majority of boys didn't go through that. And we know that, right? Yeah. All the stories.

Yeah. So, I wonder if that maybe helped me because throughout the whole years, of course, they would put like the 10 best students in the whole school. They would publish it, right? In a board. And they were all girls, you know? So when I was at the top of students, it was just normal. When I was the best in math. And even I do remember we had math female professors, and the one in high school that everybody was afraid of because, oh, my goodness, super tough, it was a woman. Yeah.

So I don't know. I wonder if maybe that gave me— I think you're very, very right and on to something here. I think role models are incredibly important. A lot of, like this podcast itself is all about talking to people who are doing real engineering and building real technology and just sort of showing

that there isn't just one stereotype of what a technologist is. Yes, exactly. It also shows what a big difference when the messaging that you give to kids, right, when they're growing up. So I'm super fortunate that I,

growing up, I didn't have that messaging of, nah, girls are not, you know, good at math and all. Well, we're delighted that you got that experience. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, me too. And like one of the things that you spend a bunch of your time thinking about is like how we can get more diverse people

and perspectives into technology. Like tell us a little bit about, you know, what you, where your passions are there and like the things that you're doing to try to help more folks like you become, like, amazing computer engineers. Yeah, yeah. That's very dear to my heart.

And that's something that I've worked a lot, which is bringing access, you know, to just underrepresented communities to computer, to technology. And, of course, being, I am a woman. I am Latina. I am an immigrant, non-native English speaker. So I'm a minority in many dimensions, right? So when I went into the workforce, it was immediately, of course, I was thrown and I was made very conscious, right, of what it means to be just the only woman, the only person of color, you know, the only non-native English speaker, et cetera, right?

And so, and it's fascinating because I have worked in three countries. In all three, this is Venezuela, the U.S., and Singapore. In all of them, I have seen, I have experienced how being a minority in technology affects and how it's different. And so ever since, like, always, like, I'm like, I need to do something, you know, and help others. So specifically women, women in engineering and minorities, people of color, are really dear to my heart. So that is something that, and that's what I was telling you. Like in hindsight, I realized that I had great role models when I was growing up in high school, right? And so I see how, you know, it happens so much like many girls don't have that experience, right? And even like myself, as you

know, when I was in like a mid-level engineer, I didn't see much like higher level, you know, women in senior positions, in executive positions, or Latinas, right? Or people of color. So, I realized it's tough. Well, other than you yourself being an amazing role model for folks who are aspiring to get into the field and, like, folks who are, like, looking for what their path might look like once they're in the field, like, what do you think we should be doing more of to sort of encourage and nurture this diversity? Yeah, it's, like, multidimensional. Yeah, I know, I know. It's everything. And you know, one thing is like, there are no women because there are no women in technology. So I believe in one role models, essential, essential at all levels from executive, mid-level,

senior to, you know, high school girls and everything. So that's one thing. The other thing that I'm super passionate is it's about the education, you know, educating others because we women, we know that it's good, right? It's the rest of us that don't know. So I believe a lot in educating and working with our allies, right? And working with, you know, men that really want to help us and actually are coaching us. Because, you know, it's super important to have male coaches as well because they have the experiences and the learnings that we haven't, right?

I have my network of women, but many of us have not been in the executive level, for example. Right. So that's why we need. So I believe in those two, like educating the two, the women to know we can do it, but then the men to say, hey, let's change it as well. And, you know, those that already know help us. Yeah. I think those are two very good and important things we should be working on. Yeah.

I completely agree with you. So just let's switch over to something completely different. So I've heard that you are a big road cyclist. So how – so it strikes me that both California and Seattle are fantastic places for, like, being a road cyclist, modulo crazy traffic. But how did you get into that? Like, is that something you've always done? What I've always done is sports with legs. That's what I realized.

Because when I was in Venezuela, roller skating was my thing. Like, since I was 10 years old, I was roller skating and then rollerblading. That was my thing. And then when I moved to California, I was just coworkers. I was like, I'm looking for a new sport, a new thing to do. And a coworker of mine was like, be a cyclist. Nice. So it was your typical Californian got me into cycling.

So this friend got me when, like, he became my sensei. It's funny because I called him, like, he's my cyclist sensei. Nice. He taught me. He went and chose, you know, helped me choose my very first bike and taught me everything, you know, got me into the community. Yeah. It's one of those interesting hobbies, and I haven't cycled in years and years, but I love hobbies where you can sort of blend your ability to technically geek out on something. Like, hobbies with gear are great.

Exactly. Like, cyclists are amazing geeks about all the gears and, you know, and how to adjust the tension in the frame and the material of the frame to do more aerodynamic here and there. How, you know, there's a new helmet and the helmet design. It's just freaking awesome. Like, I'm a camera hobbyist, and I have way, way, way more camera than I have ability. And, like, I suspect that that's true for many folks who are cyclists. Yeah, cyclists, there's a rule that is just, there's even a book of the rules, you know, of cyclists. And so, one of the rules is like the correct number of bicycles to own is M plus one, where

N is the current number, current on bikes that you have. So, the correct is always M plus 1. Yeah, that sounds about right. Or the number that your significant other would leave you. Yeah. So, those two. Either the limit of your significant other or M plus 1. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's amazing. Now, that sounds like the same rules for cameras. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, like you said, it's a really great sport for tinkerers. And is this hobby a big part of how you have work-life balance? Because I know that's a difficult thing for many of us to have. And not just because there's so much work to do. There's always a lot of work

to do. But like, I know, for instance, I love the work that I do. So I'm just sort of tempted to do it all the time. And like, I fall into this trap frequently of just allowing myself to do too much of it. And like, it's always good to sort of step away for just a little bit to re-energize yourself or do something different to exercise a different part of your brain or, like, get physical exercise. Yes. Exercise is, for me, my distress avenue and all. And it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's also my zen-like. Like, I also use it as a meditative.

Like, I love climbing. Like, as a cyclist, that's what I love is just climbing hills. And it's just like, you know, because then you get into this, you become this in this moment with your breathing and all, and then you meditate and all that. I love it. And since our type of job is very mental, right? We're sitting, just programming and all.

So that's why that balance of having a physical activity to actually sweat and all, it's really – it provides, like you said, that work-life balance. Yeah. You know, I even find that, you know, when you're doing something like cycling or hiking or, you know, CrossFit or like any number of things that looks like I've never done them in my life. But, like, when you do them, like, and doing them intensely, like, you can get into, for me at least, what is very similar to the same sort of flow state you can get in when you're programming. Correct. Like, really, really intensely. Like, where everything just sort of vanishes away and, like, the only thing that you're programming, like, really, really intensely. Like, where everything just sort of vanishes away,

and, like, the only thing that you're focused on is, like, the immediate thing in hand, and, like, you're almost, like, you're on automatic. Exactly, exactly. And so in those sports are, again, if you like the tinkering and, you know, and geeking out and all, a cyclist, for example, you get in that moment because you're focusing your breathing. Then your heart rate, because of course we have a million devices, right? So seeing my heart rate, seeing my power.

So make sure that my heart rate and my power are correct and then my breathing. And then am I on the correct gear for this climb? You know, what the percentage of the climb? So it's just, like you said, you become in this flow that is just amazing. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Like, you've had such an interesting journey, and you're working on technology that's sort of right at the frontier

of what we as human beings are creating right now. So it's sort of a super fun space to work in. I'm so happy we could chat about this stuff today. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation. Awesome. All right.

Well, thanks for joining us for Behind the Tech. You just heard Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott speaking with Dio Gonzalez. And I love how excited she is about everything with tech. It makes me excited. She's working on tools that let people build games or whole new worlds, you know, when it comes to mixed reality. And she talked about how the potential of mixed reality is to kind of really kind of change things. What do you see as the potential with mixed reality to really impact the world? Well, I think there are a bunch of things that mixed reality is going to be super important at.

Like the things that we're seeing already that are just sort of the obvious places where MR, like, has great benefit is in this sort of whole area of line workers. So, like, people who do jobs right now where they don't use a computer or even a smartphone at all to do their work and where the mixed reality becomes the first piece of digital technology that they're using that helps empower them to do more and to, like, be able to do their job better, basically to unlock their creativity. And so an example of this is an elevator technician or someone doing hydraulic work on pipes or someone trying to do maintenance on a very complicated machine. So normally when you're doing these sorts of things, like you've got your toolbox, you've got a bunch of manuals, you're sort of trying to decipher all of the stuff that you're seeing and like constantly referring to your like paper documentation or like a document that's stored on some sort of computer to try to help guide you through this maintenance task that you're doing. And with virtual reality, with mixed reality,

you are able to sort of superimpose a lot of that information directly on the real world, on the thing that you're working on, which lets you both diagnose problems more quickly, that gets you the information that you need to fix the problem that you're finding, and it even lets you take this thing that you're doing that normally is like a fairly isolated task that just you are doing and like bring other people into the problem-solving environment because like they can also, you know, sort of see the world from your point of view as well. Yeah, I love that. When Dio was talking about her ultimate goal of kind of

being able to, you know, show everyone swipe and show everyone everything that you're thinking. Yeah, that would be awesome slash terrifying. I would agree with that. Awesome slash terrifying. Definitely. as, you know, growing up in Venezuela and she's, you know, a minority in multiple ways. But I was thinking about how having those perspectives is so great for someone who is building these tools and creating these things that will let us build these roles. What do you think about that? Oh, I think you're spot on. I mean, I think it's interesting that as you listen to her, as she thinks about her own experiences, like a lot of what she went through

is sort of very formative and like gave her the determination and grit to get to this like fairly senior place that she's at right now. And, you know, I think all of that sort of translates through as well to the problems that she's trying to solve technically because, you know, like you're a developer working on a frontier technology like mixed reality, like you're constantly banging

your head against the wall because the path forward's not always obvious and it's certainly not usually easy. But, you know, I think the other thing about having all of that perspective is, as you mentioned, mixed reality done right is a new way for human beings to interact with one another. You know, and there's sort of the obvious things like, oh, how could this help with education? Like, how could this help with these, you know, sorts of empowering people with technology to do their work better and unlock their creativity. But, like, it's also going to be a tool that people use to interact with one another. And, you know, I think having – it's really, really, really important when you're building any of these flavors of tools to, like, have a variety of different perspectives in their development because we all have blind spots.

Like, no matter how carefully we're thinking about how we build something, like, we at the end of the day are sort of coming through it through our own, like, our own personal lens. It's formed by our experiences. And, like, hopefully you've got compassion, and, like, maybe, you know, you even have empathy, like, the ability to sort of, like, feel what other people are feeling. But it's still not a substitute for actually having the people who have lived those experiences be able to, like, bring them directly to the things that they're building. I totally agree. I love it. And I'm

glad that we have people like Dio working with us. Awesome. Yeah, so I think that's a wrap for today. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Be sure to join us next time on Behind the Tech. And please help spread the word. Tell your friends, your colleagues, and all of the geeks and non-geeks you know. See you next time.