Behind The Tech with Kevin Scott - Justine Ezarik: Digital influencer, author, and actress

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

iJustine – popular techie, gamer, and YouTube tech reviewer – has nearly 7 million subscribers across YouTube. Kevin talks with Justine about her career path, tapping tech to help build your own online platform and insights into what it’s really like to be a content creator. Click here for transcript of this episode.  Kevin Scott iJustine: https://www.youtube.com/ijustine

Everyone's like, oh, like, have goals and stick to them. And I don't believe that at all. I mean, I think it's great to have goals, but I think if you stray from that goal, you could potentially find something way better. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Behind the Tech. I'm your host, Kevin Scott, Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft. In this podcast, we're going to get behind the tech. We'll talk with some of the people who made

our modern tech world possible and understand what motivated them to create what they did. So join me to maybe learn a little bit about the history of computing and get a few behind the scenes insights into what's happening today. Stick around. Hello and welcome to Behind the Tech. I'm Christina Warren, Senior Cloud Advocate at Microsoft. And I'm Kevin Scott. And our guest on the show today is Justine Zarek, also known as iJustine. She's a techie, she's a gamer, and she's one of the top tech female influencers on YouTube.

I've followed her for many years. I've met her a few times. And it's been so interesting to watch her career trajectory. Yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, I admire what she does in general, inspiring people to get interested in technology but like maybe even more so like i i'm just inspired by her as an entrepreneur she has like she was one of the very earliest people who figured out that there is a way to create content and to engage with audiences using these new technologies like youtube and streaming and she pioneered a way to turn that interest into a business and now it is a big thing like the thing to the point that

both of my children uh would love to be able to figure out how to be influencers or streamers or whatever you want to call it. Uh, which is just, it's crazy how influential she's been, honestly. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I read a study recently and I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing, but apparently the number one career that kids have today is like, they all want to be creators. Yeah. Like that's, that's, that's their number one career.

And look, I think it's a terrific thing actually um so the creative impulse in general is a great thing to have it's what you have it's what i have it's uh you know like why uh a bunch of us are out like trying to make new things to see whether or not they're actually useful for a large number of people. And I think anything that can make kids want to create things and to create connection among people is good. 100%. And Justine is certainly one of those who has helped lead the way. All right, let's talk with Justine is certainly one of those who has helped lead the way. All right, let's talk with Justine. Our guest today is Justine Azarik, a techie, gamer, vlogger, and celebrity YouTuber.

Best known as iJustine, she has over a billion views across her YouTube channels. Justine is also an actress with appearances in film and television and authored the New York Times bestselling book, iJustine, an analog memoir. She hosts a podcast with her sister Jenna called Same Brain, where they talk about tech, video, games, and food. Welcome to the show, Justine. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. It's so awesome to meet you. I think we've had one conversation before when you were chatting with some of the leadership team at Microsoft. But I've followed the arc of your career. that you're doing, I think, is it's obvious to everyone how relevant and interesting and important it is here in 2021. But you started a while ago. How did you figure out that this was

an interesting thing? Did you have any sense that everything was going to blow up the way that it did? No, I mean, I was just a kid that loved technology. And it's weird because now there's always the buzzwords like women in tech, women in gaming. And it's so strange to me because when I grew up, no one ever thought that that was different. I was never treated differently because I was a girl and I loved tech and I loved playing games. It was just sort of like the people that I was surrounded with then, like that's just what we did. Like we played games. Like I was just, that's something that we loved. And I had never had any intention of this becoming a full-time job.

It just sort of did. And I mean, I've been doing this for so long and it's just so cool to still be able to be doing something that I really, truly enjoy. Well, let's maybe dig into that story a bit because I think that's just a super interesting thing. So were either of your parents in tech? How did you first get interested in technology? So my mom was a teacher. So it was interesting because back then, there were a lot of Apple computers and stuff in schools. So that was like the only person that really ever had them was because of students and teachers and things like that. So that was like my first computer.

And then my dad, we ended up getting like a PC later. So it was interesting because there was just so much support from both sides. And my dad is also super tech savvy. So him and my mom like built our entire house, like basically with their own two hands. And so they're both very savvy in that sense. So they were always super supportive of my interests as well.

And so was gaming the primary first tech interest or did you ever do programming or was it BBSs or the internet? You're probably too young for BBSs. I was real into IRC. So I was maybe like sixth grade on IRC and just like trading, you know, music and things like that. But I loved gaming and I had a Nintendo like very, very early. And I even remember asking my mom when I was working on my book, I was like,

why did you buy me a Nintendo? She's like, that's the only thing that you wanted. And I was like, okay. So it did stem from something that I wanted because I really didn't remember back then like why did we have that but yeah then I also was very interested in coding so around sixth grade the whole time around whenever I was really getting into video games as well I first realized like the web was something and I was like well how did they make this and then when I view the source of a website for the first time that's when I had this realization of code. And that was something that was creating this. And then I got into web development and I taught myself HTML.

And then I thought that I wanted to be a computer programmer. And I went down that whole path. And then I started loving sort of the front end design. So I had a teacher in, I think maybe like in high school. And I would work on getting everybody in my class. I would be making their, like actually making their programs look good and kind of neglecting the code a little bit. And he's like, you don't have to code. Like you could be a front-end designer. You could do something like that. I go, oh, I didn't realize that that was something I could do. So that kind

of put me on a whole other path of discovering photography, graphic design, and video production. So it kind of really did stem from my love of tech and coding. The thing that you just said is really important. I don't think fully appreciate how important role models are when kids are trying to figure out what it is they want to be and what it is that they could do. Like this whole thing where you didn't even understand what a front end designer was and like didn't realize that was a path.

So I don't know whether you think about, you know, you have a pretty big audience right now. Like how much do you think about your job being a role model for kids, like getting them excited about technology and sort of showing them paths forward. Yeah, I mean, I think I recently, no, I guess not that recent because I have been doing it for a while, but I sort of realized how powerful that is.

Because like you said, there wasn't somebody who I could look up to that was doing this thing that I wanted to do because it wasn't even a thing yet. So it's so cool for me to just see how excited the younger girls are getting about technology. And they're so excited about their phones or their new laptops. And they've started making unboxing videos. And anytime, and we haven't done these recently,

but like back in the day, whenever we would do meetups and just seeing people and I would be signing phones and laptops and devices, I was like, this is so, it's strange, but it's also like, this is what I love. And like, I've created this community and it's just so cool to see it. So what did you choose to study when you went to college? Did you have a clear sense of what you wanted to do by the time you graduated from high school? Well, it was interesting because I kept telling my mom that I refused to take my SATs. I was like, I don't want to do this. I want to do, I knew what I wanted to do.

I wanted to do something in computers. But that whole, I guess, traditional way of going through school and that, I'm not a good test taker. And that's just, so traditional school for me was very, very difficult. But it's the things that I liked, I was so good at. So the computer stuff. So I ended up going to a two-year school, which was for graphic design, very difficult, but it's, it's like the things that I liked, I was so good at. So like the computer stuff. So I ended up going to like a two-year school, which was for graphic design, video production, multimedia, basically everything that I'm doing. Like I had a crash course of that for two years and it was just the perfect fit for me. So I think when kids are looking at like what

it is that they want to do, you know, I think school is so important, whatever that is, if it is a traditional four-year, if it is like a two-year crash course, like something like that for me was so perfect. Yeah, that's awesome. I know the way that I learn is a little bit similar. So I need to find my own path. And like, I believe everybody learns slightly differently

than everybody else and if you can figure out the things that you're really excited about and like you have a way to go immerse yourself in that you can really get ramped up pretty fast on uh like new things i mean i've uh taught myself how to do so many unusual things by watching YouTube videos and then just practicing. And I just really wish that there had been this when I was a little kid, right? Because I could have learned so much more so much earlier. And that's the thing that I was even thinking about. Even if this was available when I was younger, would I have taken advantage of that? Because I feel like now, as I'm older, I feel like I'm like, Oh, there is everything here at our fingertips. Like we can do anything.

We can learn anything. And I think you kind of take that phase of, of childhood. Like, I don't think, I don't know if I want to speak on their behalf, but I feel like, I don't know if it's like, you don't understand until you're older, like how incredible and how powerful that is. So I definitely encourage kids. if there is something that you're interested in, you do have everything at their fingertips. Go for it. So when did you really start doing the thing that you're doing professionally right now? Making videos, connecting with the audience, using the internet to say this important set of things that you have

to say to as many people as you can reach? Yeah, I would say probably professionally in 2006, 2007. I think that's when I finally was actually making money and getting sponsorships and things like that. I mean, they were obviously very small and very different back then. But I also, before that was after I'd quit my job, I was working just like freelance. So I was just doing graphic design, video production and stuff like that on the side, sort of supports my internet habits of, you know, like doing the live streaming and things like that. Cause it's also weird because I was one of the first people to ever stream on, I guess it was just in TV at the time, but it was, I mean, obviously that became Twitch, which was also

strange because no one was doing live streaming and I mean, obviously that became Twitch, which was also strange because no one was doing live streaming and I was doing it for 24 seven, six months straight. And it was just such a weird experience because like, that is the ultimate way to connect with people and doing these like live streams was amazing. Cause it's like, we just met so many people and everyone kind of became friends in the chat. Like it was no longer about me. I was just sort of this small factor of, you know, everything that people were doing. And they just made friends that way. And it was really awesome. It's super cool.

And I think sometimes we forget how quickly things have progressed. Like one of the things I'm interested in is how did you find courage in 2006, 2007 to quit your job and make this your career? Because people can actually have the idea in 2021. It's like, oh, I want to go be a YouTuber or I want to go be an influencer on TikTok or whatnot. And it's still hard, but it's a thing at least that you can sort of see a whole bunch of other people doing and the same way that,

yeah, maybe kids aspire to be a theater actor or a movie star or whatnot. But like, it just didn't exist when you started doing it. So how did you get the courage to do that? I think that's probably the good thing is because I was young and I really didn't have any concept of the world. You know, I was actually at a concert last night and my friend, Lindsey Sterling, who's a violinist, also had this same sort of perspective because what she's doing now on tour and being a traveling musician, violinist with costume changes and all of this, 10 years ago, managers, agents, everyone was telling her, you can't do this. This isn't a thing. This will be nothing. This isn't, like, it's impossible. And just to see her 10 years later on stage doing that, like,

I have that same feeling of so many doors were slammed in my face. Like, everyone was telling me, no, like, this isn't a thing. Like, what are you doing? I was getting made fun of. But I don't know, for whatever reason, I was like, I'm having a good time. Like, I love this. And I think that there is something here. What it is, I don't know. And I was just grateful that I did have very supportive parents and supportive friends that were like, you're weird, but whatever, we'll go along with whatever you want to do. And thankfully did have that background

of being able to do freelance work, graphic design, making websites on the side. So that was able to sort of support my habit or my fun little side projects. I wasn't completely homeless. And so what were the technical things that had to happen to enable you to do what you're doing? I mean, so I guess there's some obvious things

like YouTube had to exist and be at some level of scale, but what else? It's not just that, right? Like you have a whole bunch of other tools that you use to make your content and to reach your audiences. Yeah. I mean, now it's so different. I have a computer for streaming, a computer for editing, my travel, my storage, like all of that stuff. So, but then, I mean, it was still so early. So like the price of these things was just, it's so expensive that it was like unattainable at the time. So like the camera that I had,

I mean, it was small little, kind of like a VHS kind of thing with like the little DV tapes. And it's like that then was like thousands and thousands of dollars. And the quality was terrible. And that was like the cheapest thing that I could find like on the market.

So now it's incredible just to see how the price of things have come down. You can create an entire business and studio on just a phone. A mobile device can do that. And I think what's so cool is once you actually have these tools and people are able to upgrade and see things that you can do, it really is endless. I guess I hadn't realized how good the technology had gotten until the pandemic, where as soon as I was spending almost all of my time in video conferences, I was like, okay, well, how can I make the sound better?

How can I make the video better? And so, you know, the funny thing to me is everything that I'm doing right now. So I've got a DSLR that's sitting above my machine. I've got a Shure SM7B microphone. I've got a Focusrite Scarlett USB audio capture device. I've got a super nerdy, like I've got a big LED octa bank over my head. So I've got decent lighting. But all of this stuff I just copied from streamers who had figured all of this out. And I'm like, wow, it's this incredible innovation that streamers have done, like assembling all of these tools so that they can connect with other people. And like now I'm using some of these same things to have better meetings.

Right. So have you seen anything about what you're doing change as a result of the pandemic? Or bigger audiences, people more interesting in some of the tech stuff that you're doing, like try to get your advice about how to, because we're all streaming right now all the time, right? So I mean, I basically did the same thing that you did. Like I completely upgraded my setting and right now I don't have it because I just got back from a trip. So I had all my camera gear and

stuff packed, but normally I do have like a DSLR or a mirrorless camera actually. And then, you know, you end up creating such a good look, like your view right now, like people are like, is that background real? I'm like, yeah, it's really because especially because yours because you have the nice bokeh effect yeah me and my sister started a podcast during the pandemic and we like now I have a whole roadcaster system and we have several of them and it's just like we've got the whole lighting like and it definitely was completely different because a lot of people did not know how to do any of this in the beginning it's like this is something that I live and breathe. And I was like sending out extra webcams to friends who weren't able to buy them because there was like a webcam shortage.

And I was like, oh, I've got a whole box full of those from like the past like five years of not having to really use a webcam. So yeah, it's really cool how that kind of all shifted and everyone kind of adapted to this new lifestyle. And I think integrating this way to do these meetings, I think, is going to save people a lot of time in the long run. Yeah, I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, it got really hard to buy basic stuff. So whatever was on YouTube is like, oh, this is the best camera for doing live streaming, like all out of stock. Or like this is the HDMI to USB video capture device, like all out of stock. So it's really crazy like how many people all at once decided that they were going to

try to up their game. Well, even that it's like some of the computers they might have don't even have it. So they actually could not participate or do their job, which is so wild to think there's a webcam shortage. That is something that I never would have ever expected. Yeah, I think a lot of stuff during the pandemic, I think, really shifted kind of our perspective and realization of how much we do with tech and how far we've come. And for a lot of us, it's like, oh, this is our way of life. This is what we do all the time.

So talk a little bit about how it is that you run your business. Because in some senses, what you're doing resembles how people created content for a long while now. You've got lighting and microphones and cameras and some of the mechanical bits are the same, but what you're producing and how you engage with your audience and how you make money is very different. So talk about how that works. Yeah, it's interesting because it is different for a bunch of creators.

I know a lot of creators rely solely on merch, and I, for whatever reason, am just not a merch person, but that is definitely going to change because I feel like there's so much stuff that I want to create and just never really have. So I think also during the pandemic, that was something that I was like, what am I kind of missing here? And that's definitely something that we are working on.

But as far as the business side of it, I do a lot of brand deals and it's really fun because I do do a lot of tech. So there's the tech just is never ending and that never stopped. And it's still just continue to be so fun because there's so much tech to cover. So there'll be brand deals that I'll do that can be like sponsored integrations for just like a one-off video or a long-term partnership. And then of course with YouTube, there's the partner program. So you get paid off of sort of like the AdSense and the ads that run over videos. So that's kind of the main thing.

And then obviously like the other things like consulting for companies, or do I take a, instead if they don't, if it's a startup, like they don't have a budget to pay, then I'll work for equity or something like that. So it's, there's a lot of different ways that you can go about it. And it just sort of changes because the world's changing. So it's like, you just kind of have to mold whatever that project is, whatever brand. Yeah. I'm watching my

11 year old son right now who has aspirations to be a YouTuber, try to get started. And like, granted, I've placed a bunch of restrictions on him that an adult wouldn't have it's like i'll let you upload youtube content but you can't show your face for instance like i don't you know for your own safety like i i just would prefer you didn't do that and so he makes these little animated videos that he uploads and so i just watch him struggle with i'm guessing the same thing that you all struggle with uh which is all right i don't really understand this youtube algorithm i don't understand always based on the feedback that i'm getting from the people who watch my videos uh about what they like or don't like so that I can make more of stuff that people will

like. I don't understand how to reach new people. So if I want to get a bigger audience in a way that isn't just luck, how do I go do that? And this is stuff that you in particular, since you're one of the very first people who've ever figured out how to do this as a career. You've had to try to understand all of these things. So I'm just sort of curious, how do you approach this stuff? Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned early on that there's going to be good videos, there's going to be bad videos, and sometimes there really isn't an explanation and you have to just accept it. There are small things you can do to make changes, but I just try not to focus on the numbers so much unless, you know, unless there's like a significant dip and then

I'm like, okay, I need to really kind of go in and assess because at one point it drove me absolutely crazy. Like I was obsessing about numbers. I was obsessing about subscribers. And then when I kind of stopped obsessing about it, it just sort of naturally came. And really it's just about creating content you think someone else is going to want to see. There's been videos that I've been editing and I'm like, I am so bored. I can't post this. This is garbage. And then I just end up scrapping it. And then sometimes there's, I'll also say that I'm like, okay, let me work through this. What can I change to make this better? And I'm able to make it a decent video. And even though I might not think it was that good, I'm like, I just really liked that. Like that's strange though. It's hard because you really

don't know what someone's going to like or what's going to resonate with people. I think what's so cool is the audience like is just so vast that even if you're doing something that is such a niche sort of thing that you think nobody else likes, there's somebody else out there. It might not be a huge audience. So it's like, go after that audience and be the best in that small field because there's so many less people doing it and there might not be a huge audience for it, but you're going to be the best at that.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing that's happened that is partly enabled by the technology because it's possible for a single person. It's hard. And I don't think people appreciate how hard it is to make compelling content and then just sort of get it distributed. And the audience is so big, it just changes the economics of what content creation can look like. Most of the stuff that I watch on YouTube is weird. I love to watch classical pianist practice. Interesting. So I love weird sorts of cooking videos. I've taught myself to be a machinist by watching. And some of the time,

I don't even understand why people post this stuff. Like, why would you, as a busy professional machinist, post a bunch of videos on YouTube and social media about how you do your job, where you are better than the best teachers that I've ever seen? Yeah, so, like, the generosity of that, to to me seems incredible. So I just love this ecosystem, like how rich it is and how much of this unusual stuff that you'd never find anywhere else. There was never going to be a machinist television channel, even on satellite or cable. It's just awesome. It is actually funny you say that. Why do they post it? I don't know. I don't even know why I first started.

I feel like it was because I was just entertained by it and I thought it was funny. I don't know. Now it makes a little bit more sense, but still, he has a very busy day. He's going out of his way to give that information to people. So hopefully it comes back and he's able to make some money off of the ad revenue

and stuff like that. But still, it takes a lot of content and a lot of time to do that stuff. So it's like, is it worth it? Yeah, and I watched this one machinist who posts a couple of videos a week. And I've been watching this guy for years and he was able to quit his job as a full-time machinist

to make machining videos on YouTube. That's cool. Which is, yeah, it's cool and it's mind-blowing. I mean, just, and I sort of wonder for you as a creator, and like this must be true for all creators and artists, how you find that line between serving the interest of the audience so that you can get paid. And like paid might be currency or it might be recognition or like, you know, whatever the value is that you're getting from the audience versus what stimulates and fulfills you above and beyond, you know, the paycheck or the fame or whatever else. And like, it strikes me, I've never done this, but I think it sounds hard whenever I think about it,

finding that line. It is. And, you know, I think that's the fun thing about working with brands is like, I'm able to sort of do a video that I may not have otherwise been able to because you know they're supporting that video and I'm able to make like something even cooler but it's like a lot of that content is stuff that I would have already made anyway so it's great to be able to get a cool brand attached to it because it's something that I was like oh I would have done this and made this anyway but there is kind of that fine line of like okay I'm doing this for them or I'm doing this for myself and I feel like this for myself. And I feel like that also goes back to the beginning of why you're creating, why you're making the stuff

that you're making. Like you have to choose something that you're interested in. So I genuinely like what I'm talking about. So it's easy. It's like, I'm doing this for myself, but also for them. It does get a little tricky though, because, you know, sometimes with brands, like they will want you to say certain things. And I think now I've done a really good job of my audience trusts me. So it's like, I have to have these brands trust me when I say, look, this is a really bad idea. You shouldn't do this because I'm going to get made fun of. You're also going to get made fun of. And we don't want to do that. So you have to have that difficult conversation sometimes. And honestly, sometimes you also just have to own up to it. Like if you posted something that people didn't like, either apologize or you just kind of

move on and be like, all right, that video was bad. Just don't do that again. And kind of just shift and change. But that's what's so great about YouTube is there. The audience is vocal. Sometimes it's negative, but it's like you have this core group of people and you know, if you hurt one of them or let them down, it's like, oh no, I'm so sorry. And is that for you how you have the stamina to do what you're doing? Because I've watched a whole bunch of other YouTubers who just burn themselves out because it can be all consuming. And some of them have even talked about that process. Like Casey Neistat, for instance.

It sounds like he figured out a formula that worked of how do I make content that is compelling enough where it's going to get a lot of engagement. But the process that he figured out how to do that, which he could repeat, was just

killing him, it sounds like. And like, you know, his reaction to that is like, he's dialed all the way back now. And now he had a little stint, I think last summer where he was posting videos again, and they were really great. And like, and you know, now they're dialed back again. So I don't know, how do you not burn yourself out? Oh, I definitely have. And I think it's just knowing yourself. And because I have been doing this for so long, it's like you kind of understand when things are getting to be too much and then you just have to dial it back or you have to find outside things or outside hobbies to just sort of take you out of what you're doing and making time for like health, fitness, and just yourself.

It's like, I schedule that in now. It's like, everything kind of revolves around that instead of revolving around work. So it's like, I revolve when I can do whatever around, you know, like, okay, so if I'm not going to be able to, you know, run during the day, like I have to do it really early. So it's kind of like revolving those things and just like making sure that like your health and wellness and just like your mind is okay. Because if you can't come to the table and be able to do your job, it's like, you're going to be letting down all of these people. And like, they can sense it online. Like they're, they're, they're not stupid. They know when like you're having a bad day. And also there have been times that I've been filming and I will just be like, I'm having an

awful day. Like I physically cannot do this. And I know that at this point, I'm like, I just, we're gonna have to put it off until tomorrow. So it's like, that's okay to like, listen to yourself and know when things are too much because it's like, we're not machines, unfortunately. So we, we operate a little bit differently. I don't know whether this is true for you or not, but I have that all the time. Like when I get to a point where I'm overwhelmed and I need to stop and I always feel guilty about stopping. Right. No, I definitely do. I don't know whether you feel guilty about it, but like learning to just sort of say, okay, well, you know, I may feel guilty about it, but like this is the right thing to do. And like I'm going to go do it anyway.

But I still feel guilty to this day. Like I'm sort of letting myself down or letting other people down by like not working as hard as I think I ought to be working. Right. And then you're like, I've actually been working very hard when you really think about it. You're like, I'm overworked.

That's why I'm feeling this way. Yeah, I know it's definitely tough, but I mean, sometimes it's just, it's like, I was like, is this actually, is getting this thing done worth me? Like breaking out tears because I'm so stressed out and upset. I'm like, no, it's not. I need to go for a walk. And you know, just sometimes those simple things of just going outside or going for a walk, like it, it helps so much. Sounds so cliche, but it really does. That's such good advice. Everybody should just sort of pause and absorb that.

I mean, and this is the thing with folks who do actually burn themselves out because they can't figure out a way to moderate. Then this thing that they were doing is gone. they can't do it anymore. And like, they can't share it with the world anymore. And like, that's way, way worse than just like having a thing be a few hours late. Exactly. Or waiting until the next day. Yeah. And it's like right now. So I've kind of taken it sort of easy this beginning of this year, just sort of for myself and just everything. And me knowing that tech season is starting basically like right now, it's like knowing that I'm going to burn myself out. So it's like, I'm fully prepared for that. So it's like, if you're prepared for that situation, it's like, I've been preparing

for this for four months. Like I know these next two months are going to be ridiculous. So it's like going into that, I know. And you know, I am lucky that like my sister is super supportive and then I also have a great camera person and he also helps edit. And it's like going into that, I know. And I am lucky that my sister is super supportive and they also have a great camera person and he also helps edit. And it's like, we know this is go time and just have that mentality of like, okay, we do what we have to do to get it done. And then we can relax when we need to.

And if we really have to take a break, like that's okay, we are important. Yeah, it's almost like training to run a marathon, right? Like you got to prep for it because if you don't, you won't be able to run the whole race. So true. Like, yeah, I'm like, okay, we've been resting. We're ready. It's tech season.

That's awesome. you have a set of things that you do for your work that you think are much harder than people realize. So, like, I've got a handful of maker videos that I have produced and posted on YouTube just so I could understand the process of what it takes. And, like And one of the shocking things to me is it takes a lot of work to produce five or 10 minutes worth of good content. I look at what Mark Rober does and I can't even conceive of how much work must go into

these 15 minute things that he's making. Because it's like 40, 50 hours just for my sort of crappy 10 minute videos worth of filming and editing and voiceover work. And so I don't think people appreciate it because you see the 10 minutes of video at the end and you're like, oh, wow, that's, you know, it's almost like the better you make it, the more people take for granted what must have gone into it. Right. Yeah. Everything just takes so long. And a lot of times, a lot of my videos, I don't script them. I just like sit down and start recording. So like that was working for a while until I realized how much time I was wasting.

Because I would just go on and ramble for two hours about, I mean, what am I even talking about? This has nothing to do with like this product review. So I started trying to at least now script them a little bit because I was wasting space, like my storage. I'm like, I'm wasting not only time, but also space storing all of this nonsense of stories that I'm never going to even use. So I think that is also something that I started doing just to script to sort of make things a little bit more efficient, but it's really the whole process. It's like, when you think about everything that goes into it from just setting up, making sure it's okay, the sound, the lighting, the actual recording, the prep work that goes into making sure I scripted everything, the unboxing, even the cleaning up of cardboard boxes is honestly,

it really could be a full-time job for somebody here. Like we would have a box recycling person because I spent hours breaking down boxes and making sure that they're in the recycling. And then even from that, the shooting, and then we have to save the footage. We have to edit and we back up the footage to make sure. And then we export, upload thumbnails, applying to comments. I mean, it's hundreds and hundreds of hours per video that people don't really see. And then when I kind of break it down like that and I think about it, I'm like, did I lose money on this project? Because I think I might have by the amount of hours that we put into it. I don't know whether this is true for you. I can easily imagine if I were going to take

these maker videos that I have produced and do that as a serious thing. I think going to take these maker videos that I have produced and like do that as a serious thing. Like I think it would take a long time and a lot of engagement to get to the point where I could hire someone to or like outsource some of the work where it would even be enjoyable doing. Because there's some parts of it that I just don't like. Like I hate editing. Uh, and it's so crucial to getting a good product at the end, but like, I'm just terrible at it and I have no patience for it. And so like the first thing I would want is like find an editor who can help me out.

Yeah. And I mean, I think that is the thing. It's like find somebody to do the thing that you really don't like the most, and that would be super helpful, But I love editing, which is the problem because it takes a lot of time. And if I'm editing, I can't be on camera filming more or doing anything else. So I, for the longest time, maybe until the past three years, like I was editing absolutely everything myself, like no one else was editing. But now, I mean, I still edit a few videos here and there, not as many as I used to, but I still do maybe like half, maybe a little less. I'm not sure. It depends. Also, like I

sometimes know that if I'm shooting a video and it's going to be a disaster to edit, like I almost feel bad. Like I don't want somebody to have to sift through all of my mistakes. And it's hard because I'm there doing it. And I know in my mind when I'm saying things, like I can just like do this and get it done. But that's definitely something that I do need to sort of let go a little bit more so that I'm able to do other things is the editing. But man, it's like, I love it so much though. So that's the problem.

So for things like that, that you love and that you're good at, how do you teach someone else how to do that in a way? Like they're not going to do it exactly like you, but how do you teach them to do it well enough where it's above your bar so that you can scale? Because at some point, like your business gets big enough where you actually have to give up some of the things that you love. Yeah, I was even talking to another content creator friend and they were like, oh, I don't even look at my Tik TOK. I don't, do I still even have a Twitter?

And I was like, you have millions and millions and millions of followers on all of them. And you, you don't even know. And that like hit me to the core because I was like, I still actually love doing this. And I, and you know, and like, they're super successful and super creative. And it's like, for them, like they're like mentally, I cannot be on and I can't see that. I'm doing what I'm good at and leaving the rest to somebody else. And so I think there's a lot of creators like that. But then there's also people who are really actually in there uploading and adding thumbnails. And a lot of that stuff is wasted time.

I know I could be doing something else probably better with my time. But giving up that sort of ownership of it is very difficult. And like you were saying, how do you teach somebody? I mean, I think it's a lot of time too. And if they kind of get your vision and watch your videos, and I think a lot of it is timing too. So it's just a lot of kind of working things and say, okay, maybe we can do this differently or why don't you try this?

And it's also kind of good sometimes having a different perspective because it's like, I'm so set in my ways. It's like, all right, maybe let's give me a little kick here. Let's try something a little different. So that's always super helpful because I think a lot of us kind of get comfortable. That's one thing that I love being comfortable, but I also now have learned to hate it because I feel like I'm not growing and there's no change happening. It's just like, oh, I'm just chilling here. This is great. Everything is good. And I'm like, something's

wrong. We need to get uncomfortable. Anytime I get into my set and I'm like, this is perfect. Let's destroy it and we're going to start over. Yeah. Well, I think that's a really good mindset to have because the space in which you operate is evolving so quickly. I mean, and you've been doing it long enough, maybe longer than anybody, where you've just sort of seen the full spectrum of change. Like when you started, there were no iPhones. There were, you know, like smartphones were a very different looking thing

than they are right now. Like you were the first person other than Justin on Justin TV, right? So crazy. Yeah, it's like, and now just like looking back kind of on the whole picture, it doesn't even make sense. Like, what was I doing? I don't, I honestly don't even know.

Like I was just having fun. And I think that is something that like, we really need to enjoy whatever we're doing. And it's like, if you're passionate about anything, like you really can make it be something. It's going to take a lot of work. I mean, there's been ups and downs. I mean, I was not even able to pay my rent at some point.

And I was moments away from getting evicted. My landlord, bless his heart, back in Pittsburgh, I was like, I promise, I have one more project. Everything's going to be okay. And just having people that are supportive and kind of believe in you and sort of give you that little bit of convenience, I'm forever grateful yeah i i every successful person that i've ever met and like successes you know success can be you know you or success can be you know someone who

is just feeling you know that they've got fulfillment in their life. But everyone that I've ever met has had these moments of grace and compassion and serendipity and good fortune that have helped to get you through. So this moment of compassion from your landlord, that was probably like a couple of things. Like some level, she or he had to have had faith in you that whatever it was that you were doing was going to actually make enough money so you could pay your rent, right? So it wasn't just giving you a pass. It was like they were believing in you a little bit, Right. Yeah. And I think that goes a long way. And I think compassion and kindness can go such a long way. And this is, this was interesting. So we were in Hawaii filming a

project and me and my sister were there for a month. And the last day I, for whatever reason, left like my small bag, like, and I shoved it behind the seat and somebody broke into the car, stole my bag and like my wallet was in there. And I've made some video and I wasved it behind the seat and somebody broke into the car, stole my bag and my wallet was in there. And I made some video and I was trying to make light of the situation just because this sucks. I was like, man, if anybody can just, you can keep the money, just can you turn in my ID so that I don't have to go to the DMV? Because that was also a nightmare and I had to travel. And we went around and people were so kind. Like we were pulling security footage

from various gas stations and like all these places. I basically like followed the crime as it was happening. So I was like, man, this is wild what's happening right now. But somebody found my ID and they turned it in and said they saw it off of Instagram that I had lost it. So it's like the kindness that we were showing to people who were helping me, like we were giving them gift cards for helping like pulling security footage.

So I was like, I'm repaying you. And then it's just like the kindness comes back. And I think that is something that like my mom and like my family has always kind of instilled in us and it's sort of just resonates. And it's like, why would I want to be mean to somebody? And I think going back to like troll comments and things like that, it's like, you see that stuff and it hurts so terribly, but it's like, why would I want to be mean to somebody? And I think going back to like troll comments and things like that, it's like you see that stuff and it hurts so terribly,

but it's like, how does that person feel? They have to be in such a place of pain to ever say that about somebody else. And so it's like, I kind of have compassion for them. I'm like, oh man, you're trying to make me feel bad. But it's like, I know you're probably going through an even tougher times. Like you have to kind of have some forgiveness. That is an amazing way to look at the world. I think if we have more of that, like we would have less of this, you know, sort of screaming

at each other that we have right now. Well, that's hard with social media because it's like everybody has an opinion. They have a voice and it's like, it's incredible that we have that, but it's like, no one's the same. And in text, things can be taken so out of context that it's just, it's so vicious. Well, and I know a thing that I do all the time is like, I will get irritated about something and then write a 500 word email that is just awful. And then I'll write it, I'll reread the email, and then I'll just delete it. Right. And so no one deserves me clicking send on those things. I do that on Twitter.

I'll be like, I'll write a mean tweet. I'm like, okay, I wrote it, delete. I'm not going to send it. Yeah. Or sometimes it's also nice to like kind of like bounce ideas off of people. Like I will write the tweet. I'll send a screenshot to my sister and be like should I say this she's like no so it's like having kind of that person that's like no you shouldn't do that yeah and I think that's a thing that we're missing a lot right now I mean it's

great that you've got your sister but like just being able to like push pause on your emotions for a few seconds like it's a pretty important thing to have it is because it's just everything can get so heated and it's it's fueled by emotion and people have been you know stuck in the house for like a year and a half and like there's no clear end in sight and it's just so much misinformation so it's like just breathe namaste you gotta go do some yoga or something yeah Yeah. So back to this point around how much change there's been in the social media and content ecosystem over the past 15 years. What's interesting to you right now and what are you excited about going forward? So I've strangely enough been so interested in TikTok, mostly just because of it's where I've actually been spending most of my time consuming content. And even creating for TikTok is different because it's like you have to create for TikTok. You have to be a part of TikTok. Like you have to

see what people are doing and you have to be a part of sort of the community and see the memes. And it's just, it's a whole ecosystem in itself. And I do feel like I create differently for each platform. It's not really something that I'm doing on purpose. It just sort of happens. Instagram has a different vibe to it. I post different things there. TikTok, during the pandemic, I got really into it to the point that my friends had to have an intervention, which was one of my favorite videos that I've made today.

We made a TikTok intervention because it was a joke, but everything that was happening there was actually very, very real. So it was like TikTok kind of had this community where you could be yourself. It felt like the original days of YouTube. Like I was just being silly and crazy. And they're like, who is this person? I go, no, this is me, actually me. Whereas YouTube, it's kind of become a little

more serious. It's become more learning and educational and tech focused. So it's weird because it's all sort of shifted naturally into sort of like different places. My daughter, who's 13, we had a rule like you can't have an iPhone or a smartphone until you're 12. And so she got a phone a year ago. And it's locked down in a whole bunch of ways. And one of the things that she was desperate to get on the phone was TikTok. And I'm like, I don't know whether or not we should have our 12-year-old daughter, she just turned 13 on TikTok. But I let her have a TikTok account mostly because she had something that she wanted to say and the way that she was going to say it was through TikTok. And so she's got an account. It's private. She's not blasting stuff out to the whole ecosystem. She's got just her friends on her account.

And it's like this way that they are sort of doing these creative things to show to each other. So rather than drawing something in a sketchbook or goofing off with each other on a handset telephone, like I used to do with my friends when i was a teenager like she's using this as the medium and it's really interesting like her motivation for being on tiktok is different i think from a whole lot of people's motivation to be on tiktok and and i just realized at some point that maybe everybody's motivation is slightly different yeah when they're using these things like there isn't just one thing is like, oh, I want to be famous. Like I'm gonna like, that's probably actually the worst motivation for being on any of these things.

Well, that's what's so cool about TikTok is a lot of these people like they're just creating for the sake of creating and the TikTok algorithm is so incredible that it's able to surface content that you might not have ever seen. So it's like you could have zero followers and overnight you could have millions of views and followers. And it's weird because the community is so oddly supportive. It's like they want to see people succeed. I mean, obviously I'm sure in every platform, like there's a negative side to it, but for what I've seen is super positive. And super positive. And just seeing that is so cool. Yeah. I mean, I think honestly, one of the things that maybe makes TikTok a little less

toxic is the comment section. You have to do real work. If you're in the flow of just flipping through videos on TikTok, you've got what the hearts and the heart count and the comment count and some other stuff sort of sitting there on the side. But like, it's not front and center. Like the video, the piece of content is the front and center thing. And you're going to consume that

and probably just flip to the next thing. And you're not even going to click on this stuff that's on the side. That's actually a good point. I never really thought about that because it is a process. Like where YouTube or Instagram, it's like the comments are right there and you could just hit it. And I think sometimes people are swayed by the comments. So if you see a video

and you see people saying, this sucks, this is terrible. You're like, yeah, you're right. It does. And if you don't see the comments, like you're able to have that first opinion by yourself. So, and if you don't like it, just swipe away. There is occasionally some sort of meta controversy about content that then makes me not enjoy the content anymore. And then I'm super disappointed on YouTube. And TikTok is just a little more focused on the core content and getting you through as much of that content as possible yeah and it's interesting because it's obviously like instagram has reels now and youtube has their shorts and it's like tiktok is doing one thing and they're doing it very well whereas a lot of these other companies are trying to do that also in addition to everything else it's

something that i kind of miss about like the old days of like social media because everyone wasn't just trying to do what everybody else was doing. It was like, hey, look, we're Twitter, we're going to do this and we're going to do it great. And, you know, I think it's just like kind of sticking to that, I think is very important. Yeah. So we're almost at time here. I want to be respectful of your time, but I've got two more questions for you. One is just advice that you would give for kids who are thinking about what they want to do in the future. And like, you know, maybe to anyone who's sort of thinking about like, hey, I want to be a content creator. Like what advice would you give to folks?

It's weird because I always, everyone's like, oh, like have goals and stick to them. And I don't believe that at all. I mean, I think it's great to have goals, but I think if you stray from that goal, you could potentially find something way better. And I think like me wanting to be a programmer, like that was my goal. I want to do this. I may have never strayed away and started doing video or photos and things like that to lead me to what I'm doing now. And I think just being flexible and kind of going with the flow and sort of figuring out things is, is honestly really great. So it's like have goals, but don't be afraid to stray from them. Awesome. But you know, you're also driven at the same time. It's really interesting hearing you

talk. Like, I think that flexibility is an awareness of what's going on around you and with yourself is like, that's sounds like one of your superpowers, but you're also driven, right? For sure. And I mean, it's hard because there's so many different people and it's like my other sister, she's our middle sister. Like I could never see her doing this. You know, it's like, there is a type of person that this is for, but I feel like if anybody wants to do it, like it really is possible, but there's hard work involved. Like it's, it's not just, hey, I woke up and I'm going to post a video. There's so much that goes into it, but if you do genuinely enjoy it, and if

there is a part of the process that you weren't able to do or you really don't like doing it, you don't like the editing as much, you'll find people around you that can support you and fill the gaps. That's awesome, awesome advice. So last question, maybe this has already been asked and answered given how public a figure you are, but I'm just sort of curious, like outside of work that you do, which consumes an enormous amount of your time, what do you do for fun?

Oh my gosh. So this is, it's so funny because this is something I like, I want to talk about more than anything. So I started training jujitsu about three and a half years ago, maybe. is something I want to talk about more than anything. So I started training jujitsu about three and a half years ago, maybe. And that is something that has completely, absolutely changed my life. So for the first year, I was like, I'm not going to talk about this. I'm not going to

post anything. I didn't talk about anything. I told the gym, I was like, I don't want anyone posting that I'm even here. And it was like, until I got my blue belt, I was like, then maybe I will actually post and say that this is something that I'm doing. But martial arts has become such a huge part of my life, almost even more than tech. Like even when I was in Hawaii this past month, I basically was there.

I did like, I was just training jujitsu. I started training lightsabers. So doing like lightsaber combat and lightsaber things which stems from a martial arts called Kali, which is a Filipino martial arts. And I don't know, it's just, it's so empowering. And the amount of knowledge that is out there for these things, like we're talking about machining. I mean, I spend most of my time watching jujitsu videos like on YouTube. So it's like my entire algorithm is like, oh, and I'm boxing and jujitsu. So I know a lot of people now actually who are like very into jujitsu and like maybe the first time as an adult, like I know Anthony Bourdain was into jujitsu and like I was a huge fan of his work.

And I was like, oh, that's sort of unusual. Like this tall, skinny chef guy is training martial arts. So like what is the attraction to that for you? For me, I just felt, when I walked into that gym, I just felt I was at my lowest point. I felt incredibly weak. I felt just, I was depressed, like at a super bad point in my life.

And I was like, I need to do something other than what I'm doing. And then when I walked into that gym, it was incredibly humbling because nobody cares who you are, what you do. It's like when you're on the mat, you're there to learn, you're there to train. And it's just, for me, it kind of puts so many things into perspective, mostly because I wanted to learn everything so incredibly fast. And, you know, as a white belt, like you really, like you think,

yeah, I'm doing such a great job. And then somebody comes in and crushes you. And then you just go home crying. You're like, oh man, I know nothing. And it's like every single time, it's like every time you level up and you learn something, that just causes another problem. But it's just such a vast variety of things that you earn. And it's so empowering when you actually are able to start leveling up and actually learning things.

And it's honestly one of the most rewarding things that I've ever done. And I think I learned the most when I got injured for the first time because I was going too tough. I wanted to learn everything so fast and that taught me to slow down and kind of enjoy the process.

Like you're not going to learn everything in this first year. So if you keep getting hurt, you're not going to be able to progress. So it's like that injury taught me to kind of figure out what else I could do when I couldn't be training. And that's when I started the other martial arts, Kali, which is more kind of like hand-to-hand combat with various sticks and different weapons. I was doing that while I was injured. And then it's kind of, that sort of

has played into my life a lot where if there's a problem that I'm having and I'm like, okay, I myself cannot do this, but what else can I do to work around that issue to make it work? So it's like martial arts has taught me so, so much about like myself and it's just such a rewarding experience. And I think from that, my biggest piece of advice to anyone is like, have a hobby that you do outside of anything and just go set your phone down and just be. And I mean, that took me like 13 years to kind of figure that out. And you know what I did?

I was like, this really is life-changing. That is super awesome. And with that, thank you so much for talking with us today. This has been really super interesting. I'm such a huge fan of what you do. It's just awesome to have you out there in the world. Thank you so much. Thank you. No, I appreciate it. This was really fun. Thanks for having me. Super cool.

Awesome. So that was Kevin's conversation with Justine Ezerick. You know, listening to her talk about her story, I was struck again, and I kind of had kind of forgotten. Our career paths are remarkably similar. We're the same age. We got started online about the same time. Obviously, she went more in the video direction. I took a more written approach.

But it was so interesting just, I think, hearing about A, how she got into tech, and B, just the story of her career. And I was honestly kind of struck by it, A, again, because like I said, it's similar to mine, but it's also just not the typical story that we hear a lot of people who are interested in tech. Yeah, and I'm always inspired by that and just sort of fascinated how people even get the courage to go do these things. So when you are charting a new course, it is so easy for everybody around you to sort of dismiss what you're trying to do, to say it's stupid or silly or that you're going to fail and summoning the courage to go do the thing anyway, because you believe in it is just, I mean, it's inspiring and like to see it work is very encouraging. No, 100%. You know what I mean? Like I remember when she used to, back when Justin TV, which is,

which became Twitch, but back when it started, it was, it was live streaming, usually what's now known as IRL streaming, but that was basically what it was. And she would, you know, live cast her life. And it was completely new. And there weren't many people who were doing it. Justin Kan was doing it. She was doing it. And then to just see the business that she's built, you know, like not only has she continued to be a creator and influencer and put out great content, but she's actually and I think this is applicable even for people who might not want to be on that type of creative thing. The business that she's built has been really inspiring and really amazing to watch come together. Yeah, and I can say when Justin TV started and when she and Justin were doing this stuff, you know, they had a camera strapped to them 24 by 7 and were broadcasting their life. I didn't really get it.

And I certainly did not appreciate that they were figuring out a template for a way for people to assemble a whole bunch of technological components and a new way to reach an audience. And like so much of what I consume now is that is it. to assemble a whole bunch of technological components and a new way to reach an audience. And like so much of what I consume now is... Is that stuff. It's exactly that stuff. It's not the 24 by 7 IRL stuff, but it is like little episodic views into people's lives, whether it's someone who is a cooking enthusiast or I like watching people practice playing classical piano.

Like it's just these things that you get to see that you just wouldn't otherwise. And like they are the ones who pioneered this stuff. It's just great, I think. No, I totally agree because the technology obviously is what allowed that to become more democratized and allowed, you know, people to be able to do that. But then you had the personalities and the people who were willing to A, put it out there and show, yes, this can be compelling. And then I think, you know, there were a number of people who were doing those things at the time. Very few of them have stayed around, let alone have grown into, you know, big brands. And so that's another thing too. Not that that has to be the goal, but I think it's been really impressive to see that Justine, especially since she started, you know, in her 20s, had the foresight to say, okay, I want to make this into a career. And I'm going to figure out a way to make this into a business because it wasn't a business then. And there wasn't a path that you could follow to make that into something that you could actually turn into a career. Yeah. And I think the really interesting thing is, is like, we honestly all owe them

a debt of gratitude, I think, because the fact that they pioneered this stuff and they created not a small business ecosystem around streaming meant that a whole bunch of technology was in place when the pandemic started where we all sort of kind of turned into streamers over the past 18 months. No, that's been the joke I've been making with my friends is that we've all become Twitch streamers over the last 18 months because we had to. And I had a slight advantage

over some other people because I've always had camera stuff and I've done that sort of thing. I had audio equipment and some video stuff, but certainly not to the extent of people like Justine and others. And it was interesting, when I got up to speed, I'm sure that you found this too, I almost found myself becoming a consultant for friends and family on how to do their own setups. And I thought about people like Justine. I was like, God, not that she needs to, and she's doing plenty well on her own, but it's like the stuff that she does,

we've now seen a direct one-to-one way where it's not just from a consumer standpoint. It can actually be an enterprise or a standpoint, medicine. There's so many different things where once you have figured out how to get the process down, it can be incredibly, incredibly useful. But it can also really kind of change the game for things and open up access to opportunities and to resources that people might not otherwise have had. And so, you know, seeing that and seeing how that can become more accessible to everyone, I think, is awesome. Yeah, I totally agree. And I don't know whether this was the case with you from last spring,

but when I was trying to get my AV game into a better state for prolonged remote work or for being able to do TV interviews or keynote conferences or whatnot. The way that I figured this stuff out is I went and watched a bunch of videos from gaming streamers to see what they were doing because they were the pros. No, that's exactly what I did. I did the exact same thing. And then I went to YouTubers that I liked who I knew had like a fast turnaround system. I was like, okay, you know,

many of them put their gear in, you know, the description boxes, which was very useful and say, okay, what's your setup? And fortunately, a lot of them would do behind the scenes streams. I'm like, okay, this is how I set it up. And I was like, yep, this is what I'm going to take on because even though the context is different and the content might be different, this is what I set it up. And I was like, yep, this is what I'm going to take on because even though the context is different

and the content might be different, this is what we want to achieve. And so it was great to have those examples out there because we all had to kind of become home broadcast studios. Yeah, it's super cool. Strange and fascinating world. Strange, fascinating world indeed. And Justine has been such a good influencer.

And I like that she is conscientious about the fact that she is a role model for the next generation coming up, like your kids, right? Because they see her as somebody who has done this and has been successful and has also been true to who she is as a person. Yeah, and she's sort of fearless with what she does. Like she, she has, you know, more so than most of the rest of humanity is, uh, figured out who she is, uh, in public. Um, but she's been relatively fearless in the way that she has embraced opportunity and technology and business. And, uh, yeah, we we've, we even chatted a little bit uh it's not like the things that she's pioneered have remained in stasis like you've got a bunch of new stuff coming along like tiktok for

instance and that won't be the end of it either no well this is actually what's always been what's been impressive to me about her is that she has lasted for this long. Because again, as I mentioned, early on, like in the Justin TV, like live, you know, live streaming days, you've had a number of people and most of them have fallen off. And then every time a new platform comes out, again, you kind of get the next wave of people like, you know, Vine was big and there were a lot of people who were Vine stars and some of them were able to translate, some of them weren't. But what's been impressive about her is that she has been able to master these different networks and stay relevant, but also stay true to who she is as a creator and as a person. Yeah. And that is a super interesting thing because not everybody's able to do that.

Some people are not interested. Mark Rober and Mark. Right. Mark does, Mark makes one high production value, you know, 20 minute-ish video a month. Right. And like he has figured that out and it's awesome. He's almost like the, you know, the modern moral equivalent of Mythbusters, right? He sort of figured out how to do that on his own and like be the entrepreneur of that.

There's some people, I forget who they are, but there's a TikTok star right now who got up to 100 million followers and got offered a TV show. Not clear that that's going to work in that direction. Yeah. And so, you know, like these people like Justine who can navigate multiple generations of technology, multiple generations of media, multiple, you know, Multiple generations of audiences, frankly, right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So it's just impressive. And like she has such a easygoing way about her. She's just super impressive. Totally agree. It was a great conversation and it's great to see someone like her out there. Well, that's it for the show today.

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