Behind The Tech with Kevin Scott - Kimberly Bryant: CEO & Founder of Black Girls Code

Episode Date: April 27, 2021

This charismatic leader talks about untapped potential – and why encouraging young people to study computer science is critical for the future of technology. Find out how Kimberly’s efforts are impacting STEM initiatives across the U.S. Click here for transcript of this episode.  Kevin Scott BlackGirlsCode

I think we need more organizational support, not just at Black Girls' Co., but any organization that's doing this work as a nonprofit. We can't do it alone. So for me, it's always about how can we have this magnified effort of different organizations that are all working collectively to elevate girls to the STEM fields and particularly in computer science. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Behind the Tech. I'm your host, Kevin Scott, Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft. In this podcast, we're going to get behind the Tech. I'm your host, Kevin Scott, Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft. In this podcast, we're going to get behind the tech. We'll talk with some of the people who made our modern tech world possible and understand what motivated them to create what they did.

So join me to maybe learn a little bit about the history of computing and get a few behind-the-scenes insights into what's happening today. Stick around. Hello, and welcome to Behind the Tech. I'm Christina Warren, Senior Cloud Advocate at Microsoft. And I'm Kevin Scott. And our guest today is Kimberly Bryant. And Kimberly is an electrical engineer with a 25-year career in the pharmaceutical and biotech industries. And about 10 years ago, she founded one of my favorite organizations, Black Girls Code,

and since then has received national recognition as a social innovator for her work in technology inclusion. Yeah, I'm an enormous fan of Kimberly's and of Black Girls Code. It's one of those things that if you have ever been on the receiving end of an extended hand, like someone who sees potential in you and takes a risk and believes in you, it can be one of the most transformational things that happens in your

life. And I think the great thing that Kimberly is doing is she is extending that hand to as many young women of color as she possibly can to get them into computing. And it's so needed, and it's so inspirational. I totally agree. I was actually having a conversation with someone earlier about that same thing. And I love that Kimberly is extending that hand, as you say, to so many young girls of color. So let's go ahead and chat with Kimberly. Hello and welcome to Tech Fit for Europe, a new podcast series looking at the big policy

questions behind today's technologies and the people who shape them. My name is Kasper Klöggen. I'm the Vice President for European Government Affairs at Microsoft. We believe in the power of dialogue and finding common ground, and that's exactly what our new podcast is about. Join us as we discuss some of the most pressing digital policy issues of our times affecting us here in Europe and beyond. Can we protect and preserve democratic values in an era of digital disruption? What is the role and responsibility of the tech industry in ensuring a climate-neutral future? And how can technology companies support governments in driving economic recovery from COVID-19? Europe's policymakers are grappling with these and many other questions as they look to set out

the rules for developing and deploying technology. But the global reach of technology regulation and the digitalization of geopolitics means that these issues have implications far beyond our continent's borders. Nowadays, what happens in Brussels matters worldwide. In this podcast series, you'll hear from some of the most influential voices on key digital policy issues, whether in government, from academia, the private sector, or civil society. So tune in on your preferred podcast platform. Take Fit for Europe. Our guest today is Kimberly Bryant. Kimberly is founder and CEO of Black Girls Code, a nonprofit organization dedicated to introducing girls of color to the field of technology.

She's also an electrical engineer. Kimberly has received numerous awards for her work in technology inclusion. She's been on Business Insider's list of the 25 most influential African Americans in technology, and she was named one of Fast Company's most creative people. In 2013, she was recognized as a White House Champion of Change for Tech Inclusion, and in 2014, received an American Ingenuity Award in Social Progress from the Smithsonian Institute. Welcome to the show, Kimberly. Thank you for having me, Kevin. Hey, I want to apologize ahead of time. I have a new puppy named Kimiko, and she's busy in the morning, so if you hear a little noise in the background, I apologize. That is awesome. No problem at all. Is this a COVID puppy? It is. It is. It's a quarantine puppy.

That is excellent. Well, I think one of the awesome things people are doing to get through the pandemic. So like no worries at all. So I'm just really excited to learn more about your journey. So can we start with you telling us a little bit about how you got interested in science and technology in the first place. Of course. So I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee back in, well, late 60s, 70s. I don't want to give away too much of my age, but I grew up in the late 60s and 70s. And one of the things that I was lucky, I guess I would classify it as being lucky to be able to experience was this accelerated pathway in math and sciences, all through middle school and into high school. So during, you know, that period of

time when, you know, you're a high school student and you're trying to figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, one of those conversations with my guidance counselors resulted in her really kind of encouraging me to explore an engineering pathway. Now, I had no knowledge of engineering beforehand, didn't, you know, know anyone who was an engineer, didn't know anyone's mom or dad who was an engineer. It was very new to me. But, you know, because of this accelerated pathway and the sciences and math, it was suggested as a good option for me to explore as a career path. And I kind of ended up applying to colleges as an engineering major just from that recommendation from my guidance counselor. I ended up at Vanderbilt University right up the road in Nashville, trying to major in the most human centric form of engineering that they had, which at that time I thought was civil engineering.

Before the end of the first semester, I realized that was not the pathway for me. It wasn't really fun for me to design all these airplane runways and highways. And I was like, I got to do something else. And so I found my way into electrical engineering because it had a close connection to technology, and it seemed a bit more interesting to me than designing runways for the rest of my career. And I kind of just stumbled into that as a pathway for me. And that's kind of how I ended up learning about technology initially. So it was majoring in electrical engineering, taking that very first computer programming class that this new world was sort of opened up to me. And it became just something that caught my interest at a time when the field was really starting to

explode. And that's how I found my initial way into math and science, in particular into technology. And so did you have any influential mentors or teachers in college? It sounds like your guidance counselor in high school was extremely influential, but like what about once you got into college or like into the profession? Well, college was quite interesting for me and from the perspective that I came to Vandy at a time, Vanderbilt at a time when there were very few engineers of color that were in the freshman class and certainly even less that were in the School of Engineering. But I was, again, lucky, if you will, to run into a upper class woman on campus during my freshman year walking around one day who became one of my most significant role models and still is a very close friend. She was a couple of years ahead of me, but she was also a double E major. And I think that she was pivotal for me at that moment because I didn't have another

role model that I could look up to who had done this same field of study, who was on this same trajectory, if you will, in terms of becoming an electrical engineer. And I needed that. So in most of those classrooms, you know, I was often most of the time the only young lady in the classroom. But I was absolutely often the only student of color. So having someone that was an upper class woman who had done the same things I was trying to get through and surpass some of these hurdles, that gave me that bit of encouragement that I needed because it made it possible, you know, for me and made it real and made it like, okay, I'm probably going to have a difficult time when I take this electronics class, but this is how I can navigate through it. These are some of the tips. And

don't take this for pressing. You may want to take this one. So that advisement from someone who had shared a similar journey, it was crucial in terms of me being able to push through so this this must be one of the things that um you know when you were thinking many years later about founding black girls code that you were trying to do with that organization is uh you know trying to figure out how to connect aspiring young women of color who had either the potential or the interest in the field with role models or mentors to help them see that they could have a place in technology. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, of course. So Black Girls Code came about because my daughter was entering middle school

and starting to develop this interest or passion for computer science, particularly in the gaming area. She was a really heavy gamer at a know, at a very young age. And that was like what she wanted to do all day, every day. And so she had this vision, if you will, at the time would just laugh about to be a video game tester. But that was just because she wanted to get these games. She wanted to play all the games and she felt that was the easiest way for her to be able to do so. Do you remember what her favorite games were?

Oh my gosh, what was her favorite game? Now, one thing about Kaya is that she played games offline and online. She played Dungeons and Dragons offline. Oh, awesome. Good for her. It was some

type of platformer game that she, because she took our very first workshop and she was trying to create this game. But that's so awesome. Like it's one of the reasons why I got so interested in programming and computers in the early 1980s. And I've chatted with so many people here on the podcast and just in general where that curiosity about a piece of technology like a game and wanting to understand it better and create your own versions of these things, it's just an interesting motivation that a bunch of people seem to have.

So it's really, really cool your daughter had that interest. That was her main motivating factor was to really create this game that she played incessantly. And so when I was able to put her into workshops, she was 12 and I found a summer camp that she could go to down at Stanford. And it was really transformational for her. I often say that, but it really was. So she saw that not only could she play these games, but she could really begin to even envision herself creating them, which really created for her a different opportunity for what her future could look like. You know, as I said, you know, initially, she just wanted to be a test, a video game tester. But that summer, you know, her world opened up, if you will, to the possibilities

of creating these things. Now, the thing that was still shocking to me was that that particular summer camp, it didn't have, it was a sprinkling of girls in the classroom. And I do believe Kai was probably the only student of color. And when I recognized that it was after the camp was over and she mentioned something about the interaction in the classroom and the girls not really having a voice and they were doing some little game,

incentive game or something like if you help someone and one of your peers, you get a ticket and at the end of the week, then you can use all these tickets to get a prize or something. And I could envision it. And after she told me, like the girls were like jumping up and helping everyone and getting all these tickets, but their professors, which were male college students, weren't calling on them. And so like they're running around and, you know, trying to help everyone, but, you know, not getting seen in the classroom. And for me that, you know, not getting seen in the classroom. For me that, you know, it resonated with some of the challenges that I had at college myself.

And it really, it really concerned me. And I think I have mentioned before in other conversations that it wasn't until she told me that after camp and we were on our way home and that I even really cognitively recognized that she was one of the only girls in that classroom and that because I was used to that in my professional career. So I didn't even see it, you know, so I had become really programmed that that was the reality in a space like that, because that was what I was personally living on a day-to-day basis. And I did not even think about it, you know, until she mentioned, you know, that concept of not being seen. Not the words that she used, but my words, but I didn't even recognize it because I was used to it from corporate. And it was really that for me was

the driver because I felt like my daughter may not continue on this pathway if she didn't have a community of support. And I didn't want that to happen. This was finally something that she was truly passionate about and I wanted her to be able to explore it. So this experience that your daughter had in this camp, I think really resonates and it's a, like a really, a really powerful motivation to want to help unlock the potential of your child. So, but, but like, it's a, it's a really great thing that you've done that you, you decided that you wanted to go help solve this problem for as many kids as

possible. So how did you get there from like trying to, you know, want to nurture your daughter's interest in technology to trying to solve this for everyone? That's a great question. So initially after that, that first summer camp experience that she had, you know, I, I, I left with this, this, this drive or motivator, I guess to have more girls like her in this class, you know, you know, more friends, community, whatever that may look like. And as I was speaking to some folks that were within my

professional community, I was like, hey, I think I'm going to send some more girls. Like I literally was going to pay the summer camp registration, although it's quite expensive, but I was going to pay the summer camp registration just, you know, for three or four other girls so that when Kai would be there next summer, you know, there will be other girls within her community. They could have a friend circle, if you will. It was just that, you know, direct. That is what I was going to do. And as I was speaking with some of my peers and colleagues, they were like, that would be okay. But, you know, maybe just why don't you create a camp yourself? Why don't you create one, something like this?

And I did not have any plans to create a camp. But that was like when the seed was sort of planted. I was like, hmm, that's interesting. That could be interesting. I never thought about that or never even thought that I could. And it was, you know, that little seed that was planted and, you know, really starting to have other conversations with folks around what they were doing similarly to those type of camps, STEM, or I talked to teachers that were teaching technology in school that I really, you know, decided to create something myself so that not just, you know, that small group of girls, like that would have been

great. It would have been great for Kai to have other girls in the classroom. But I think what resonated with me that made the vision a little bit bigger was not only that encouragement from my peers, but also just a realization because I was working at a biotech company in the Bay Area and we did a lot of outreach work outside of South San Francisco in a neighborhood called Baby Hunters Point. We did a lot of outreach work outside of South San Francisco in a neighborhood called Baby Hunters Point. We did a lot of volunteer work there. It was a community that was under-resourced, and I was familiar with this particular community. And I thought about the girls in that community who would not be part of that four, you know, would not have an opportunity, you know, perhaps due to their parents' income to attend a camp like that at Stanford. And I wanted to equalize the

playing field, if you will, a bit in that regard. I wanted to expand it so that not just, you know, parents that are students that come from a high income household, like, you know, my daughter was blessed to be born into would have the same experiences and opportunities as she would. Because I, you know, recognize that even though I had these challenges as a woman, a black woman in a STEM field in tech, I still have privilege because I had an opportunity to, you know, share these experiences with my daughter. But there were certainly other moms like me who were not engineers, not working at a large biotech firm that may not be able to do that. And I wanted that not to be the case. I wanted for girls who were like me, who came from a low incomeincome family or middle-income families, they have the same type of exposure and opportunities that I was able to give my daughter.

And that's what motivated me to actually create something. Didn't necessarily know it would become as large as Black Girls Code, but I wanted to create something that would allow all girls to have these same experiences. So you started Black Girls Code in 2011. So you're celebrating or about to celebrate your 10-year anniversary. Tell us a little bit about how the organization has evolved over those 10 years. We've evolved quite a bit. And I think I have always sort of considered our pathway to be more like a startup as opposed to a nonprofit.

Maybe now, you know, maybe a more traditional nonprofit, but certainly more like a startup in the beginning because of the pivots and turns and detours that we took along the way. I think the very earliest detours were, you know, something, you know, that's become very fundamental. In the beginning, you know, we knew that the turning point for girls in STEM was middle school. So we initially, you know, had as a part of our design in the program that we would focus on girls, you know, 10 to 12 or 10 to 13 or so. We found ourselves expanding that range because in that initial class, some of the moms that we outreach to in the community had daughters that were younger. So the girls had younger siblings and they were like, well, what about for my seven-year-old, six-year-old? Do you have anything for her? We were like, well, what about for my seven-year-old, six-year-old? Do you have anything for her?

We were like, well, what can it hurt? Bring her along. You know, she can't hurt anything. It's just pilot. And what we found was those girls were like a sponge, like literally. They would soak all the information up. They would run around the classroom. They would run to their computers, and they would stay there all the time. They really were as interested in learning these tools as their older sibling, in some cases even more so.

And so we found out from that experience that we really probably should widen the funnel, get the girls as young as possible, six or seven, into learning these skills and then develop them into those middle school students. So that was early. We changed the program model the following year when we started the full year. We changed it from a six-week program to a program that has as its foundation these one-day immersion workshops. And we also moved into a chapter-based model because we wanted to take BGC out of the Bay Area and see if we could get some traction or if there was the same interest. And we were sort of overwhelmed by how much interest there was in other places.

And we recognized that if we took it out of this local market and leveraged volunteers in various cities, we could expand our reach and really exponentially reach more students than what we could do in a six week Bay Area only program. So the chapter based model formed at that time. And then over the years, I think we've continually added more and more subjects to the things that we teach. So we were teaching just basic app development in the beginning, website development. Over the years, we've added everything from artificial intelligence to virtual reality, blockchain, crypto, you name it, if it touches technology and we can really expose our girls to it in a way that engages them, we do. So we've added all of those different learning areas to our platforms. And I think over the last year, the most significant change that we made was going virtual. And that was a necessity in 2020,

actually about, actually it probably was this week. We were in the office wondering what was going on in the world in terms of what was going to happen in terms of COVID. And the order came down from the San Francisco, maybe California, the shelter in place was going to start. And we literally ran around the office, putting things in storage and rapid fire. It was chaos to get everyone out of the office. Now we also had to do the same thing in our New York office

because we had a team there, but we weren't planning to go virtual. We weren't planning to go virtual as a team. We certainly weren't planning to go virtual as an organization. But after we took the teams offline and everyone was at home, we started to shut down these in-person workshops that we had planned throughout the year. And so we recognized that if we were going to be able to continue to do anything with our students, we're going to have to try to figure out how to do it virtually. And that's what we did. We really revamped the programs that we would normally teach in workshops, as well as partnered with other corporate partners to create opportunities for virtual learning around technology.

And interestingly enough, one of the partners that we started out with was Microsoft. So we did workshops with Microsoft all over. We did some of them with the Microsoft Store community and did these virtual workshops all over the place. So like we would sometimes, you know, market those events to our chapter, maybe over 50 or so workshops, if not more, with the team at Microsoft who were able to create these virtual lesson plans and really partner with us to be able to get them to our community. And then we began to do the same with our own curricula. So it was a transformational moment for the organization in that we could still, even though we were sheltered in place,

get this learning and tools to students who were stuck at home with their parents. Parents were asking for this, girls were asking for this. And we were able to exponentially increase our reach over the course of the year. So the year before, we reached 5,000 students. This year, we've reached, in 2020, over 10,000, primarily because we transformed to that virtual setting. So this has been a constant thing of changing ourselves, if you will, as needed. And so how much of that transformation do you think will persist once the pandemic restrictions start to recede over the coming months? Well, we made a decision, you know, especially after we looked at those numbers. But we also made a decision just based on where we wanted the organization to go in terms of our reach, you know, that we would not, you know, stop doing virtual plan. We actually created a team, a whole team and hired and added to our staff to create a virtual programming team. One of the things that we found via the virtual platform that we were created in 2020 was that we didn't necessarily need to depend on this chapter based, local based model to grow the organization and the clearest path to growth and reaching a million students by 2040, which is a goal for us, is really to leverage the virtual platform as much as we possibly can.

We were also able to bring in, you know, students from all over the world. So in some of those virtual sessions that we did, we would have students from different cities in the U.S., but as well as, you know, in Africa, the Bahamas, throughout the UK, Canada, et cetera, just the ability to increase our reach demographically was exceptionally possible because of the virtual learning platform. So that's something that's now part of our organizational programmatic strategy. We'll always do virtual. We hope to go back in person, yes, at some point this year, but we will never not do virtual planning or virtual learning. It will be part of our organizational strategy from here on out. Yeah, I'm really encouraged to hear that.

You know, you grew up in Memphis and I grew up in rural central Virginia. not urban innovation centers that have this critical mass of tech expertise who have both interest and potential in technology, who just would never be able to travel to places that have programs like yours for in-person. So like this virtual stuff, I think, could be really transformative. Absolutely. I think for us, you know, we we considered doing some virtual programming before, you know, years before. But we, you know, it wasn't it wasn't a priority. It was just like, you know, maybe that may be something we could do to reach students in places that we don't yet have a chapter. But being forced to really adopt the platform to teach virtually, it really, for us, I think it opened our eyes to the necessity

just for that reason that you mentioned. Like there's a tiny Asian country in the Pacific area. It's tiny, like you have to magnify the map to even see where this place is. And during one of our virtual sessions, we had a student there. So we were tracking the locations and someone from this very small island in the South Pacific was in the feed. And for us, we were all marveled at.

I think we showed that numbers in the charts to one of our board members, and they were like, oh, yeah, this is such a place, but we never heard of it. So being able to reach them virtually and have them become part of the community would be transformational for them. And I think that's part of our goal is to extend our reach as much as we can to those who need it. So I'm curious, going back to the girls who choose to participate in Black Girls Code, have you discerned any interesting patterns in what drives these young women to sign up? Like how much of it is like your daughter

where they've got a burgeoning interest in something like gaming? Like how much of it is because they're hearing from the media or something else that coding careers or interesting things? What motivates these young women to even come into Black Girls Code? The motivator for the girls has changed a bit over the last 10 years. I would say in the beginning, there was not this common terminology in the public mindset around coding and computer science. You know, there was not, it was not part of our common lexicon, if you will, back in 2011. Yes, it was for those of us that are techies or geeks or in STEM, but the general public, absolutely not. You say, you know, I'm teaching a computer program. They did not know what that was.

That did not, you know, that was not something that we were talking about commonly. That has changed over the years, however. But in the beginning, I was mostly seeing students that were finding our program either from teachers and possibly parents. So that's sort of how we grew in the beginning. Now, you know, the landscape has changed quite a bit over 10 years. So there's Code.org, there's Girls Who Code, there's Technovation Challenge. You know, there's so many organizations that are focused on teaching coding skills to kids and kids are.org, our code, and they want to learn how to build apps now. So the seeds have been planted, you know, sometimes before they get to a Black Girls Code program and there's an interest in technology or they want to build an app or, you know, they want to create some type of apparatus. So girls are actually interested now in learning more and are finding their way to us somewhat on their own

and through their circle of friends who've done a Black Girls Code program a lot more than it was in the beginning, which has been a great transformation to see that now it's more common, if you will, for them to know a little bit about coding or at least that language and a little bit about computer science, but have this hunger to learn and do more. And do you all think about how you help support the interest that these young women have in technology and computing over time i mean and i and i i ask that because you know like you know this uh from your own career but you know majoring in electrical engineering and then becoming a professional engineer majoring in computer science or mathematics or pick your thing, it's hard enough on its own, getting all the way through the point where you've got this skill set that you can then go use to earn a living and to find fulfillment in your life. It's even harder if you're a woman in these fields, just because of all of the

obstacles and, you know, sort of things that, you know, discourage you or, you know, to just stand in the way. And then it's harder yet if you're, you know, like if you're a black woman. And so, like, how are you thinking about and, like, how can we in general help nurture this interest that these brilliant young women have over time? Well, one of the things that for me that has been a consistent part of my journey as leading the organization over the last 10 years is that I had my daughter in my home. And so as she went through these various stages, just as you described, she got to high school and then she was taking AP computer science and the challenges there. Then she went to college. She majored in computer science. She's still in college. She's about to go into her senior year. Still a major in computer science, but she's taken different detours here and there along the way. She's interned at Microsoft, by the way. Yay!

She's going back for a second year this summer. That's awesome. So because of that, I have really been able to bring things to the organization like, hey, we really need to give them support. Once they get to high school, they're going to need to go into AP Computer Science, or they may be. Or we need to start doing more to prepare them for internships and open up these opportunities for them to have exposure to internships in the summer. So we created an alumni program back at the end of 2019

that we have fully actualized this year that really includes support beyond just what we would do in a K-12 BGC setting. So we created a formal mentorship program. We created a formal internship program that connects our girls to internship opportunities with a variety of companies. We have an alumni summit that we have done for the, this will be the third year, but second year virtually, that really brings in mentors to support the girls, give them really exposure to career advice, et cetera, to prepare them for the next step of their journey. And then we hope by 2022, we'll actually have some college chapters in place. So what we're looking to do is create a bit of a circle, if you will, that girls will come into BGC, but they can grow and

they can go into these other career areas or major in CS, but still be a part of this very rich community in ways that we continue to provide them support. So for us, it's really, you know, building out this leg of the organization is a key for us in this next year or two, is to really make sure we have the career support, internship support, mentorship support, etc. So that these girls that we've really created a pipeline of can actually begin to have these fruitful and hopefully longevity of their careers in the field. Yes, you all are doing such great work. Like I wonder, you know, if you could get the world to do anything that would, you know, get more women and more women of color into computing,

like what would that thing be uh and like how can we all help support that i think we need more organizational support not just at black girls co but any organization that's doing this work as a non-profit um we can't do it alone so for me it's always about how can we have this magnified effort of different organizations that are all working collectively to elevate girls in. So that means bringing in staff. Our classes are run by volunteers that work in industry. So getting folks to volunteer at organizations like Black Girls Code, getting individuals to both give as well as encourage their organizations and companies to give to support organizations like Black Girls Code, absolutely positively creating both mentorship and internship opportunities.

Those opportunities are transformational because it's difficult to understand what a computer scientist does if you haven't done that. I see this for my daughter, like when she's in school, like that's totally different than when she's in, mindset of what a computer scientist really is and what that does. And then I think really making sure that once these girls are career ready, they're graduating, that they can get a foot in the door. They can get an opportunity to work at a company like Microsoft and others and have a fruitful career there. So pushing on all those various levels, either via individual that are giving up their time and resources are really holding our companies accountable for providing these opportunities to get more women in the field.

Yeah, it's such a good and necessary push. And like, we should all be very, very grateful we have your leadership and your organization's leadership out there like helping us all make progress on this so i would love to get your advice to two different audiences so like one is like if you're a young woman or just a young computer scientist in general trying to trying to break into the field, you know, like what advice would you give to them?

And then a separate question is what advice would you give to parents when they have a kid like you who, you know, is, is interested in capable in you know, mathematics and science, like what advice do you give to parents about how they can help their kid you know pursue that i would say for students or young computer

scientists find the thing that you love and and find a way to utilize technology to help you do that thing um i i continue to you know always bring up things about my daughter because that's who I see on this pathway and for her, she loves art, she always has loved art, but wanted to be an artist before she wanted to be a technologist and in this last year or so, she's found a way to put art with technology and she's doing a lot of digital art and she's still a computer scientist and sees herself that way. But she's really now able to match these two really, really strong passions of hers.

And I think that's what it's all about. It's not like just doing something because there's a good job at it. Like I'm a parent and I don't promote that because that only gets you so far. And this can be a difficult field. But if you can find a way to mesh the things that really get you excited and find a way, I can't think of very few things that technology doesn't touch it. Find a way to meld those two things together. And I think that's what leads to really finding so much joy and fulfillment in your career path. And then I would say something similar to parents is find the things that your kids love and give them opportunities to do that. For me, it was my daughter loved gaming and she also loved,

she was a creative. Now, I did not want her to do games. I did not even want to teach game development when we first started BGC. I was sick and tired of those games and I did not want to teach it. I found out, however, very early on with NBGC that teaching game development and game design is such a beautiful, I sound really geeky now, but it's such a beautiful pathway in the tech because do the sound. There, of course, are the developers who do the algorithms, but it's such a diverse, as well as really, I think it's the perfect way to teach computer science because of the different modalities

in terms of bringing all these different skill sets and techniques into creating a final product. And it's a place that, you know, certainly we need more and more diverse creatives being a part of that industry. But I didn't want to do that because I was like, oh, gaming. She said play games all the time. But it was what she loved. And I think for

me, the learning as a parent through all this is like it. Find the thing that your child loves and open up every opportunity possible for them to be able to do that thing you know whatever it is you know and if it's technology there's a lot of resources out there now that we can get you know right offline find those opportunities and then introduce them to it as much and as early as you possibly can. Yeah, I think that is such good advice. I mean, it's really interesting. The first program that I ever wrote for myself, like the thing that motivated me

to just go learn more about coding so I could make this thing that I wanted entirely for myself was a Dungeons and Dragons game, actually. And once I had made that thing for myself, I learned a bunch. And the most important thing I learned

is that I could make things. And I was super interested for a long time in how do you build games and how do you build awesome computer graphics systems. I've never been a game designer or a computer graphics person, but just having those is the motivation that drew me in, that taught me that I could figure out how to program.

Then let me do exactly what you just said uh which is find find the thing that I was really passionate about making that I could make with these skills that I had uh that I picked up yeah um no as soon as you said that my brain light bulb went off. And I remembered the game she used to play all the time. It was World of Warcraft. Oh, nice. She played World. She was so obsessed with this game. She wanted to create World of Warcraft. And you also made me just remember in talking about feeding into the passions.

And I mentioned like she's a digital artist now but these characters that she's drawing they look a lot like those characters in World of Warcraft and it didn't until you just said that until I put two and two together because I've been looking at this digital art it's like where are these characters coming from but it looks like those characters in that fantasy world that she was so obsessed with as a gamer and it gets back right to to what you said it's just like being able to support where our kids and our younger selves you know have this passion that you know it'll eventually come full circle you know like as parents we may know what we'll know where that is but it will and if we

just support them you know along that journey i think that's where we can make sure they have you know find a way yeah we've we've there's been a bunch of research done about the differences between intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation so So, you know, extrinsic motivation is like a thing that comes from outside of you. So it's, you know, like a paycheck or, uh, you know, like other people piling on adulation or, uh, you know, criticism. Um, and like intrinsic motivation is like what comes from within you. And it is just super clear that that intrinsic motivation is like the more powerful of the two. And like,

I think you said something a minute ago, like being, being a professional of any sort is hard. Like you're going to have days where the thing that you're trying to do is a struggle. And if you have that intrinsic motivation, like you, you sort of understand why you're doing the thing that you're doing, like you will get through whatever the struggle is. And if you lack that intrinsic motivation,

then it's just very hard. So, you know, in a sense, like figuring out what it is you do to like find that intrinsic motivation. And like, I think what you just said is like, just fantastically good parenting advice in general is so powerful, because if a kid can figure that out, then like they've, they're off to the races. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. So how are you thinking about the future? Like you've got 10 years of Black Girls Code under your belt, and hopefully you've got many decades ahead of you. But where do you think things are going over the next 10 years? I think over the next 10 years for BGC, we'll certainly be building out a foundation based on what we've learned that we do really well. So we just finished a strategic plan at the end of this quarter. And, you know, part of what we're looking to do over the next three to five years is just build a solid foundation. So for us as an organization, we're transforming a bit into a more mature, if you will, company and getting a bit out of that startup mindset that we really built on over the last decade.

But building that foundation, I think for us, some of the things that we have done very well in terms of building out these chapters we want to continue to do. So certainly scaling the organization to other cities, both in the U.S. and abroad, building out this virtual platform and making sure that the tools that we've been able to develop, we can utilize them virtually, but also seeing ways or finding ways that we can get those tools to teachers in the classroom that may want to utilize our lesson plans, etc. So really expanding on our virtual offerings, both in-house and externally. But also, I think for us is making sure that, as you mentioned earlier, that these girls that are in college and going into their careers really have a solid support system. So I see the organization continuing to transform that way in their college partnerships and building these college chapters. But for me, I think it always kind of comes back full circle to

supporting these entrepreneurial initiatives that the girls may go into. So I do hope that in the future, this probably is maybe eight to 10 years out, that we can create these center of excellences or labs, if you will, innovation labs and hubs. And we have one in our office in New York, but building it out in other areas like California, where girls can come in and actually see a product come through its full life cycle. And that we can support these girls in creating some of these companies that we've introduced them to and exposed them to over the prior decades. And that is really my hope and dream, whether I'm sitting in this seat or not, is to be able to see and invest in a company that started by a girl that was a part of Black Girls Code. That's awesome.

I would love the opportunity to make those sorts of investments myself. I would. So we're almost out of time here. Before we go, I just want to ask, what's things you do for fun? You have this big, meaningful job that you're doing, which I'm guessing consumes a lot of your time. But do you have any interests outside of that, that, that you're really passionate about? Interestingly enough, the thing that I, one of the things that I do for fun that I'm starting

to get back into now is the most lo-fi, low-tech thing possible is, is gardening. Like I'm really obsessed. That's awesome. I love, love, love to go. I can spend hours outside in this dirt. I love it. At once, when I lived on the East Coast and I lived in New Jersey, of all places, I really wanted to become like a master gardener. I love gardening. And there's just something about it. I mean, I think it's probably why I'm a nonprofit now, but just whole process. You have to be patient. You have to make seeds and you put the seed in there and you got to water it. I mean, I love, I love, I'm obsessed with it and it brings me

a lot of peace. I don't know how to explain it, but like, it's very peaceful to me. It's hard and it's, you know, stumbling and digging, but I love that part of being back and connected to nature and, you know, nurturing something and then patiently waiting and seeing if it's going to sprout or grow, it's really something that I'm passionate about. It's really awesome. I mean, I do think gardening is an interesting metaphor. Like you said, you can nurture, but you're not in control. And it's so interesting and special when you get something out of it.

I mean, it really is. And I didn't really think about it that much in terms of BGC, but, yeah, it was similar to not running a nonprofit. But I do that just to unwind. And, you know, after being so connected to my tech and talking on tech and teaching about tech all day, just being able to go out and connect with nature in that way is really special for me. What's your favorite thing to grow? Vegetables. I love growing. This is the southerner in me. Like I'm obsessed growing all of these collard and mustard greens.

Oh, that's neat. I was like, this is how you know I'm really from the South. That is the thing I love to grow, but any type of vegetable, I love to grow that. Before that, on the flower side,

I really was obsessed with roses, but I know that's from my grandmother who was a rose gardener but i i'm a vegetable gardener that's my it's interesting yeah i mean maybe uh maybe this will resonate as a southerner uh like i i get uh kale shoved in front of me all the time and like i i rarely like it and people uh people like, oh, you know, like you don't like kale. And I'm like, no, no, no, I love kale. I just don't like raw kale. Like in the South, you put your greens into a pot with like a piece of smoked and salted pork and like you boil the life out of it. I'm laughing because I literally am looking at

several bunches of collard greens as well as a piece of pork in the refrigerator to cook right now. We are very true southerners, Kevin. I love it. Collard greens braised with pork is my absolute favorite thing. Mine too. Reverse of a feather here. That's so awesome.

Well, look, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. This has been a really great conversation. It's so inspiring what you do. And I'm so grateful that you're out there doing it. Like you are really making a difference. And like, I appreciate it. I think we all should. Thank you so much.

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's a labor of love. And I'm really glad to have so many folks support the work. Thank you. Awesome. Well, that was Kevin's conversation with Kimberly Bryant. And wow, Kevin, there were so much good stuff there. I want to go back a little bit because games came up a lot as sort of a gateway,

I think, for both teaching programming and also for sort of the inspiration for Black Girls Code and also a little bit of an inspiration for how you got into programming as well. What do you think that it is about games that makes it such a perfect way to sort of onboard young minds into technology? Yeah, so I think games are super interesting because they are easy to love. They're a thing

that you can touch. You can be a fan of a game. They are unlike many things in technology, they're not abstract. I see it even with my own son, who is a big fan of Roblox. I've tried for a long time

to get him interested in coding at all. And his desire to make things in Roblox was ultimately the thing that convinced him that coding was something interesting to do. And so I think whether it's games or anything else that like finding a thing that you want to make with code, with technology is a really powerful motivator.

And like the other thing too, that I'll say about games is like the, the really interesting thing to me. And, and like, this is too that i'll say about games is like the the really interesting thing to me and and like this is what really resonated uh you know resonated with me about the example that kimberly gave of her daughter is games are sort of multidisciplinary yeah so you can you know you can sort of jump into you know learning about or trying to create games because you love art or because you love game design, like how a character is interacting with other characters. You like it because you love physics, like you want to build simulations of worlds. There are just so many parts of a game and so many ways to find your interest.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. That really struck me too when she was talking about that because she's right. I mean, it really is sort of the perfect onboarding mechanism, especially as games exist today, because there's not just one role. There are all these roles and it can really be a good way, I think, to kind of get people to think about, you know, especially kids, right, to think about things they might be interested in. I also wanted to kind of get your take, like what struck me from hearing your conversation with Kimberly was how important it is to have mentors and representatives and people who either look like you or remind you of yourself as a way to kind of encourage, you know, young people or students to take on a career.

I was really struck by the fact that, you know, both when she was in college and then as she was building out Black Girls Code, like how important it is that we see people who look like us in the fields that we work in. Yep. Look, I think one of the things that she said that was super powerful was, you know, this example from her daughter's camp where these girls were off doing, you know, really amazing things, you know, trying to get these tickets and, you know, we're helping each other and like, and weren't being seen. And I think being seen is a, is a very important and fundamental human thing. Like you, you need to be seen and like in, in the things that you choose to put your heart and soul and energy into.

Conversely, you need to be able to see yourself in a career in the future. And I think it's so important, both of those things, to be able to imagine yourself in the future and to feel like you have a connection to whether it's in the classroom or in your job or in the communities that are surrounding your job. So I just think it's super important what Kimberly is doing. Just overcoming all of the inherent difficulty and getting a that future so that you're not overcome by, you know, things like imposter syndrome or like all of these doubts or, you know, things that can come up as you're struggling against something. No, you're completely correct, I think. And like you said, I'm so glad that Kimberly is doing what she's doing because it's so important and it is giving that visibility, but also letting those girls see themselves somewhere else and doing something they might really want to do. I love that so much.

Yeah, it's it for our show today. We are so grateful to Kimberly for joining us. Please share this episode with educators, colleagues, and friends to help spread the word about Black Girls Code and the important work that that group is doing. Remember that you can send us a message anytime at BehindTheTech at Microsoft.com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.