Berner Phone - Caroline Calloway: Scamming & Self Obsessing

Episode Date: October 14, 2019

Hannah goes through all the accusations that Caroline Calloway is facing online and Caroline tells her what is true or false. She explains why she didn’t write her book, why she didn’t pay the advance back, her adderall addiction, what hell happened with her creativity workshops, why she took 2 years off instagram, why she doesn’t do sponsored posts, how the media would have reacted differently if she was a guy, a tutorial of what to do if you get scammed, her favorite hate comments, why she has a vendetta against Seth Rogan, why she admitted to being greedy, how much truth was in Natalie’s essay, who she thinks the real Natalie Beach is, why adderall was her drug of choice, her biggest physical insecurity, wanting fame, her magical relationship with pills, secret influencer parties in LA, the model who she was dating, her dad’s suicide and ultimately how she plays the internet like a violin.--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berninginhell/support Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And it's so tough for me because she suffered all the consequences of being... Is this you saying that to end it? Like when you admitted you're greedy? Or do you actually feel like you were a shitty friend of her? You haven't heard the end of my sentence of how hard I'm about to drag Natalie. So let me finish my fucking sentence. Welcome to the burning. What's up, guys? Welcome to the dark depths of hell. I am with the Flower Queen Instagram phenomenon that is Caroline Calloway. Welcome to Hell.

Thank you. I've been here for quite a while if you've been reading the news. If you don't know who she is, I don't know, you haven't been looking at the news, which might be mentally healthy for you. For both of us in that case. Yeah, just fucking Google her name if you want to. Or I'm going to give you a little summary, but like the cut. The New York Times, L. Anywhere that writes anything has been writing about you for over a month. Actually, since January. Since January. Okay, this is good. You're fact-checking me.

Also, L.com just came out with how to dress like Caroline Calloway for Halloween, which is pretty epic. Yeah, so obviously I'll be talking to my therapist about that. Yes. That will be crazy. Yes. Your therapist is probably having a good time with you. She's like, what is it today? It's actually a he.

Isn't that so crazy? My therapist is a white male, but he's amazing. He's doing a great job. How long have you been with him? Honestly, since going viral as a scam back in, I went viral as a scam in January, and I was like, okay, I really can't handle this alone in March and splurged for some of that really good therapy capital of the world,

New York City, creme de la creme of mental health care. He's just very expensive, but very worth it. New Yorkers love therapy and talking about their therapist. And I love New Yorkers and pretending to be one and talking to therapy. Yeah, you're kind of becoming this like New York It Girl, but people have a wide range of emotions with Caroline, if you guys are listening. It's like from hate to love, to confusion, to projecting,

a lot of shit going on. My first experience with Caroline is we're sitting here and she looked at me and she said you have some mascara on your cheek and gently wiped it away. And that's my only experience. far which has been very positive it means we trust each other she's looking she has my back i wanted to ask you on this podcast because this podcast is for people who are raw and they're open you are one of the most raw people on instagram and this podcast is about people opening up about their inner demons i think people just aren't used to people saying exactly how they feel and um especially in

hyper educated hyper ironic hyper cool urban areas like New York, where it's not only the norm to be guarded, but it's cool to be detached. I think just people who are really open are not only like sort of low-hanging fruit for who to make a joke of, but they're also an easy target for disbelief and suspicion. Wow. Would you ever start a podcast? No, but I went to Cambridge, so I hope that all of my professors who told me I I never put my expensive education to good use being an Instagrammer are eating their words

now that you've said that to me. You could say they can go fuck themselves on this podcast. Yeah, they really will never hear it. So Professor Massing, you can go fuck yourself. Actually, he was the only one I liked. That's so crazy that his name came. Really Binsky can go fuck himself. I loved Massing.

You just, tip of my tongue. I loved you, Professor Massing. Okay, good. He's actually a huge fan of the pod. I'm just kidding. You're like he is our biggest Patreon supporter. So I want to give people a brief rundown on your last couple of months. She's just kind of become this, like, internet.

I mean, the New York Times did call me a New York City it girl. I will say that. A New York City, it's a paper of records. And me, in the meme world, it's like, there's a meme. My favorite one is me trying to explain Caroline Calloway to my friend. And it's like just, you can't, like, there's just shit everywhere. It's so fascinating and complicated. And I don't, like, read the cut, but like, obviously it came up through friends or

whatever and then you got me i was in i followed you the second i read it i was fascinated by the story um here's a quick rundown caroline um is i'll fact check you as you yeah fact just jump in she's had a large instagram following where she's known for her well-written long captions correct okay good caroline oh this is good this is fun caroline sold a book proposal for a large sum but didn't deliver the manuscript in time and had to pay some of the advance back incorrect i I paid none of it back, like a true stammer. I did not pay a single fucking dollar back of that advance. But it wasn't that I ran out of time.

It was that I sold a book that I didn't want to write, which is really worse than trying and failing. I set myself up for failure. But I was 23 and addicted to drugs and very deeply depressed, and I thought that I would be happy, you know, signing copies of a memoir that was about only the best parts of me for the rest of my life. And once it came to like actually writing it, writing it, I was like, oh my God, there's not enough money in the world that will make me live this life. Like this is, I don't, this is not why I got into. Did you ever try writing something different? Or you just,

that's what I'm doing now. And that's why I haven't paid any of it back is because luckily for my publishers. My memoir is now worth more than what they paid me for since I am a hundred times more famous than when they bought it from me. And yeah, I'm, I didn't lie to them in the proposal. I didn't, you know, I went to Cambridge. I dated the polo players. I went to all the balls. But I left out my addiction, my struggles with mental health. And the book that I'm writing has all of that beauty plus all of the pain that I didn't include the first. time around. Which is very important because I feel like you wouldn't want to write a book. Exxiety comes from like when your real identity isn't what you're showing.

Oh my God. Yeah. Correct, correct, correct. That is like the most true thing. And when did you, well, let me go to the next thing. In January, she hosted a series of creativity workshops for followers. It didn't work out as planned and she had to like refund or cancel some of them and the internet went nuts comparing it to a fire festival type scam although you gave people their money back well correct incorrect and correct people did compare it to fire festival i mean god what a what a dream headline for the internet age influencer scammer fire festival i mean like even as i saw those headlines coming out about myself i was like and wishing that they would stop, I was like, but I would click on this. Like, I'm part of the problem. Like, I would

100% fucking devour this story. So even while I was like wishing for it to end, I was at the same time had a lot of compassion for the appetite that was driving it. But the thing is, the events went exactly as planned. What's really fucked up about that whole situation is that it's not journalistic malpractice in this day and age to cite a tweet. as a source and um i'd taken two years off from instagram to really get honestly to just like grow up without the spotlight and just um quitting adderall and like recovering from that addiction it really took two years and i really really i really really missed um the creative outlet connection, platform, fulfillment of making digital content, but I really just needed to figure out

who I was without, you know, placing a spotlight on myself in the process. And when I first came back to Instagram, I just sort of dipped my toe in the water. When was that when you first came back? I would say it started slowly and sporadically. There wasn't one day when I was like, I'm back. I would like come back for like a couple days on Instagram stories. How many followers did you have around that point? It had dropped. I had about when I, back and 2016 or 17 when I withdrew from Instagram and just really worked on my physical and mental health. I think I had like 860. And you weren't doing ads?

I've never done. I've done one ad in stories, but I've never done a single ad on my grid because I just see it as my artistic medium. But so I came back to Instagram gradually. I was only working in stories. I wasn't making any posts because I just had so much anxiety about it. And I planned these creativity workshops via stories, which were these really niche events for my very niche community. And the events changed from what I originally thought they would be. I planned it all myself.

There was definitely a level of disorganization. But it all came together and the events went exactly as planned. But this one Scottish middle-aged journalist made this Twitter thread where she took screenshots from what the events were initially going to be. with photos of the day of and quilted them together into this Twitter thread that caught internet wildfire and it's so frustrating

because she didn't Photoshop any of those images those are my stories but it was really horrifying being like slapped in the face with how all of this self-deleting content that just disappears into the ether every 24 hours could leave me in such a volumin

a vulnerable spot where there was like no proof of how I had changed the event and my followers liked it like if you read and no one cares about the story where it's like entrepreneurial lady plans event that you know attendees for whom it was intended enjoyed like no one's writing that headline and fine I the smart publicity wise part of me understands why no one is but it's fucked up that the people who came liked it. Like, even if you read the really negative articles that's like Caroline Calloway, the greatest scammer of ever, if you go through those articles and read the quotes that they pulled, it's like, I had a great time.

I got my money's worth. This is exactly what I wanted. It's also insane that just you as like a fellow New York City girl was like, I want to do something creative and make some money. And then the internet just went nuts over it. It was a six-hour event that I pulled. planned myself. So it's not only that I'm charging them for the six hours of the event, which included lunch and dessert and coffee and gift bags and journals. I was charging them for

the nine to five that I worked in the six weeks leading up to those events of just like sending all the emails, ordering all the stuff, booking the venues. You don't have to prove to me that you're worth that money because you're worth whatever money that people are going to pay you. You know, I totally agree, but and I'm not trying to prove it to you. I think this is something thing I brought up really just to make a point that it's hard to imagine a young man putting on a six-hour event that he planned himself and the internet taking such delicious delight in tearing him down. We're just so okay with shitting on young women and just putting down what digital creators do. And I work in the nexus of those two, you know, cultural things.

that people love to hate. And so I just think it's, I'm not trying to convince you, but I do think it's worth just like really holding that up to the sunlight and examining how it would have been different if I were a young man and how much slower people would have been to say that I have nothing to offer as a teacher. Yeah, that's so fascinating. I've had a while to think about it. So your character gets completely attacked,

being called a scammer. Yes. One of the best headlines, like this was the best that was happening to me in January was Carolyn Calloway is not a scammer. She's just a self-obsessed mess. That was a real headline. What would you rather be? I mean, I just neither. I mean, I guess. But also, who isn't a self-obsessed mess? As in, like, I like to say, we're all playing single-player games right now. Like, connections with other people is what we need to be happy. But, like, I'm not, going to sleep worrying about someone else's life worrying about my mess of a life yeah nor should you be worrying about someone else's how did you react to like you're being called a scammer did you try to fight back did you try to what did you do like what's the next step to that kind of attack okay if

anyone if anyone ever goes viral as a scammer you're welcome for the this is the four step dummies yeah the four step guide to recover to recover honestly at first and this is a this is what you you shouldn't do. Okay. First day, day one, I'm getting, I'd never gotten, the meanest comment I'd ever gotten before I went viral as a scam, I still remember it. Actually, there were two that happened over six years. Over six years, I got two mean comments because my stuff was just so long and wordy.

It was so self-selecting. Like, people, only people who really cared would stick around to read it. And that was great because it built like a really- How would you describe your community at that time of people who followed you um readers yeah um the meanest comment the first mean comment i ever got someone told me one of my ex's feet he was a runner and they were like josh's toes look like gargoyles and i was like you are blocked that i was i was i was shocked yeah i was like oh my god i was like how will i go on his toes are perfect yeah i was like how could people be like this and then

someone who was a friend of someone who hated me in college and you know what I will be the first to admit that this hate comment is hilarious and a very well written joke um they were like this reads like bad fan fiction of bad fan fiction and I was like you're not wrong like you're you're getting blocked but like I see your point and noted um how many people do you think you've blocked right now oh So many. I try to block a couple people every day because I really just don't want. You're like, it's called boundaries. Yeah, exactly. Look it up. But yeah, I just, I think people feel so entitled to access to other people, but also just, they feel so entitled to free digital content when in fact it's like I work really hard

on this. If you suck up my energy that I have for getting my shit done and building my empire, you can't be here. Yeah, well, Instagram is a big wealth of digital energy. And if you can, like, get your feed to positivity, like, I love cats, I love laughter. I love, like, looking at outfits and aesthetics, and that's what I want my feed to be. Yeah. And if it's other bullshit, I just unfollow. Yeah.

And it's not me being a dick. It's just me protecting my boundaries. Totally. So first day, the scam comes out. Yes. So it comes out, and I'm getting flooded with mean comments. In fact, before I went, I went viral in the news, Jane. January 15th, but I went viral on Twitter, January 12th.

So it took about three days for this Twitter thread to like pick up momentum. But on Reddit and Twitter, apparently Seth Rogan retweeted it. So I mean, after all these Hollywood meanings, I will be finding Seth Rogan. Oh my God, he actually came up in one of my meetings. I should have been like, oh, and tell Seth Rogan, go fuck yourself. So Seth Rogan is on my fucking shit. list. Um, I'm coming for you, Seth. Seth and that professor can go fuck themselves. Yeah, you, you thought I wouldn't notice that you, you called me a scammer, Seth. Um,

I just start getting flooded with terrible comments and they're actually start coming in as I'm teaching that the workshops were on Saturday and Sundays and they start coming in hour two of this six hour event and having gone from really like never receiving mean comments. because I just was in such a quiet little corner of the internet that I'd built for myself. Like, no one cared. To just being, like, you're a scammer, you're evil, you're a bad person, how do you sleep at night, you're such a joke, how are you teaching these people? And then to have to really pull it together for the next, like, four hours.

But these events always went longer because I would just stay and take photos with people. It was so hard. After, as soon as the last person had left, it was a blizzard in D.C. and still everyone came. It was incredible. Did you enjoy teaching? I did. You know, honestly, I really, really did until I went viral as a scam.

I really only enjoyed it for that first day. I, like, celebrated with my friends after the first workshop because the events went as planned. So that one workshop was what? The one workshop in New York. Or, no, no, no, the one in New York. Yeah, and so she had taken the photos from that day and compared them with. what I said the event would be a month ago and I did change the event but I was also really I was so fucking open about the ways I changed the events and like anyone who wanted a refund got a refund

and yeah and so how many did you have to end up doing I ended up refunding everyone because I'm not a scammer and because I just honestly I just wow so it wasn't even like a long-term thing you you did it like twice basically well I ended up continue well so here's the story first day I go viral as a scam I'm devastated yeah I so sad getting these comments I'm so confused I'm just like you know that feeling of like getting really bad news like via text or email and like your heart just sinks yeah into like a panicked place like the first moments after you well the world around you is like spinning in a bad way yeah it's like that for days like and the next day and the next day as it starts to get picked up

by news places, I was like, I have to make this stop. I was in so much pain. I would have done anything to make it stop. So I went on Twitter, which I hadn't used in years. I issue an apology. I'm like, you guys are right. I am greedy.

I let my evil get me carried away. Refunding everyone, tours canceled. Please just stop. Why did you decide to give them the like, yes, you're right? because I thought they would stop if I did that and you know it's really the only reason that I ended up becoming this strong and like carrying on with my tour honestly if I'd issued that

apology and people had just left me alone and stopped cyberbullying me and writing news articles with all this correct incorrect information about me skewing every little thing like I hadn't booked venues for dates in April and that became Callaway didn't not book any venues. And, you know, when I booked all the venues for like the ones in January and stuff like, it's really my brand to sit on the floor. And it was like, Calloway did not get chairs for the events. And like, I made a joke being like, cooking is so hard. I'm getting this catered or it's going to be B.Y.O. lunch. And it was like Calloway forced attendees to bring their own food to the event. And I was shocked because I'd always gone my information from the news. And I was like,

I thought this I thought I thought the news was no if the news wants to make a good story they take things out of context that's what I've learned in my experience with the media same but I feel like when you say when you said yes I feel greedy did party you actually believe them like you know what maybe I did charge too much a hundred percent I mean I was just crushed into a little ball I mean now when I see headlines about myself I see the bigger picture I see how it helps me me for my career. I see how silly it is. These journalists think that they might be, I don't know, exercising some sort of control over my narrative in the short term when I have so much more confidence in my ability to play the internet like a violin and make money out of this and make the stuff that I find creatively fulfilling. When I went from never being in the news, I'm never getting bad comments, to getting a bad comment multiple times a minute, to having headlines be. like, you were bad. I was like...

You're not in your character. Yeah, I was like, I must be bad. I was like, I... Because I think we all sort of walk around the world with that little sort of flickering flame of doubt inside of our hearts that's like, am I bad? It's like, am I not good? And I think one of our...

Because there is no such thing as bad or good. So like, it's all perspective. And you could go to that place, I think, in your head if enough people make you believe that. I'm not sure if it's all perspective. I think there are bad actions and good actions. I don't think morality is relative. Welcome to our philosophy podcast.

No, I love this. I love. But I disagree on that point. But I do think actions, but in overall, like, you're a bad person, I think, like, is so... Wasn't Hitler bad? I would argue that, yes, Hitler did... Hitler was bad, but maybe with a therapist, he could have, like, been good. Like, I just think our brains are malleable.

I love bringing Hitler into the conversation. A good Hitler. I mean, we are in hell. Hitler would have been a huge... Seth Adolf. Yeah, he's actually... He's listening in. He's nothing better to do in hell.

He's in the corner on a laptop producing. He's getting our levels right. Just like combing his mustache. But I was saying that I do... I empathize with you as a fellow female entrepreneur that like as a man can charge anything for anything. And, you know, that's him not being greedy. Was that something you heard a guy called greedy?

So the fact that you had to admit that you were greedy, it like strikes me funny. Greedy was the exact word I used in the, like, apology that I wrote on Twitter. And I really have such new respect for like false confessions because I would have said anything to make that pain stop, anything. Because part of me was like, why didn't you go and say, you know what? What I planned, it wasn't what happened, because you'd feel defensive. Like they'd be like, oh, she's just being defensive. Yeah, it just wanted them to stop. And I just, since everyone was calling me greedy, I just thought maybe if I was like, maybe I say I am, they'll stop.

And then a deeper question of like, well, maybe I actually am if everyone's saying this. You know, like, it was just so much. And so it didn't stop at all. Everyone kept writing about it. I mean, like, I lost so much money refunding everyone. But I just, I was worried that I had been greedy. I was worried about how much pain I was feeling. And it would get worse and worse if you continue to try to do the events.

Yeah, because I obviously was a greedy person who had nothing to offer people. But these people wanted to see you. I know that now, but I'm just saying like how I felt at the time. I mean, like, it's hard to, it's hard to know what to believe. Because I was at these events. None of the reporters who were writing about it on the 15th had been there. And I had, and so it was really hard sort of comparing my own experiences of how meaningful it had been to people and how much fun they had with the events that were being described in the news. And what's cool about these influencer events is that regardless what you do, these people have been fascinated with you in a purely digital way.

So the fact that you're putting yourself out there saying this is me, I'm real, in the flesh, I hate saying that word, but in the flesh, and having people meet you, like, that's what they're really paying for. Exactly. Is seeing you in the flesh and hearing you speak your truth. And I think that a lot of people don't think that's ethically okay for influencers to charge. But I think those people are wrong because I give away. So my business model is that I give away so many things of value for free. In a million moments every day, over weeks, over months, over years. And I think it is ethically fully within my rights to be.

be able to support myself and pay my bills from the parasocial relationship that those moments of free content build. And besides your art and your writing, you're also, if anyone knows this, you are kind of a reality TV channel of yourself. So like people are, regardless what's happening, they're entertained by you exposing your like feelings, emotions, life events. And they're entertained by you. And to meet you in person brings value to their life. I also think after the two years, that I spent off of Instagram, I really, and you know, Twitter would disagree with me. Even my own words in that apology I issued way back in January the day after I went viral would disagree with what I'm saying now.

But I've come to the conclusion that like, you know, I really don't know everything about everything, but I'm a smart girl and I've had some really hard things happen to me. And I've responded to them with a lot of creativity and resilience. And I think I have certain lessons to offer people. I also would argue, which goes to our next event, so you're still standing strong. So in conclusion, the events went as planned, and yes, they were compared to a fire festival.

Yes. Because they were just very laughable to people. I mean, I get it. My brand's really niche. It's like plants and mason jars sitting on the floor, like take photos with flowers in our hair. And it just didn't make sense to be. people so next in was it september that the cut came out yes september 12 so september one of your

former friends a girl named natalie who i can't even find on instagram so she do you think anyway i get into it um wrote an essay about how she used to help write caroline's captions back of the day and how she felt used as a friend long story short yeah um i would say she also wrote about helping me write my book proposal. Okay. I would add to that because we split the work on that 50-50. And, you know, everything in her essay is true. Like, I was a really shitty friend to her.

And it's so tough for me because she suffered all the consequences of being... Is this you saying that to end it, like when you admitted you're greedy? Or do you actually feel like you were a shitty friend of her? You haven't heard the end of my sentence of how hard I'm about to drag Natalie. So let me finish my fucking sentence. I was like, why are you being so nice? You can make a decision. She suffered all of the consequences of being best friends with an addict and reaped

none of the benefits of knowing the young woman that recovery made me into. And I feel real guilt about that. I think, and I think I should feel regret about that. I don't think I need to punish myself or, I don't know, not love myself because of it, but I do think that it's very, Natalie is fully within her rights to feel pain for all those ways that I let her down as a friend. And in ways she didn't even, like, put the full scope of how I let her down in that essay. Because it's just like, oh, my God, when you're so caught up in, like, the blizzard of

selfishness that is addiction to a drug where you're prioritizing it over everyone, just like all the moments where I wasn't there when she needed me or texts that went unresponded to or times when I was late because I was just like hide of my mind on Adderall and like I don't know combing my hair too much like it's not counting every hair on your head like organizing my iTunes library because it like had to be done then but um and just like one more minute would fix it but um but yeah I was a really bad friend to her but the thing is not Natalie did in that essay what I did in 2015, which is that she, she lied by omission. She is not, she sold the most profitable version, most profitable character of herself.

And like the real Natalie Beach is not the Natalie Beach in that essay, which before when I was like, hold on, I'm about to drag her really hard. I just knew that would make you laugh. And I don't, I actually feel really passionately about why. why it's good business for me to frame this as dragging Natalie or exposing Natalie because we live in a culture that really wants to pit female friends against each other. It's clickbait also. Yeah, it's clickbait. And the business-oriented part of my brain understands that. But the part of my heart that wants to be an artist who tells the truth

and who feels like I've really suffered the consequences of living more than most people of living in a sexist world, whether it's being judged for not having anything of value to teach, or the fact that, like, you know, I didn't choose to, I didn't choose for publishers to think that young girls only wanted stories about romance. Like, I won that game by playing by rules that I don't agree with. Like, I don't think young girls want stories about romance,

but, like, that's what I made my book proposal about because I wanted a fat check. you know and so I think I just want to be careful about not perpetuating those same sort of just like it would be good business to be like I'm dragging Natalie I'm exposing her but I don't think Natalie should be punished for the fact that we live in a world that pits girls against each other and that hates rich girls do you think Natalie did it to hurt you because she's not getting framed from this like what did she get from that she wants to be a TV writer and she wants to make it as an artist and she was very smart about so in real

life not her essay but in real life when we wrote my book proposal and sort of made the character of me um we had a lot of long chats just as creators about um what sort of narrative device would propel the story both on instagram and in the proposal and Natalie made very good points about how in long-form narrative, people hate the rich, they love the plucky underdog, and me with all my instincts for Instagram and social media, I was like, that's crazy, because on Instagram, we should really make me seem richer than I am. It's like inspirational. Yeah, exactly.

If you want your content to perform well, we need to make me seem way richer than I am. And like, I've spent, I've visited Natalie at her house in New Haven, and, like, her house is so much nicer than mine. Like, she's, I really, really, really want to stay away from falling into a space where this is two white girls being like, who's more privileged? But the fact is that she, a huge narrative piece of her essay is that I had more privilege than her and that I was richer than her. When, in reality, I was presenting that to the world so that we could both get paid. And she was very much aware of that. And she never goes so far. And, in her essay because the whole thing is true to say and I thought Caroline was rich but she plucked out

all the details that she knew that I was presenting to the world so do you think she thinks she'll get like a TV writing gig she already has I can't tell you the details of it but like oh not she has an Instagram I mean she does but it she does and I can't tell you yeah like I think I're friends I kind of found it and I but then I was like so she doesn't want fame from this I feel like people want girls to always be caretakers and the fact that you so upfront are like I want money I want fame I want power people are like what when like I'm like that I'm trying to but here's the thing Natalie is like that too except I would say Natalie doesn't want fame she wants glory and I fucking love that about her like Natalie is like the dowdy you know sidekick that she is in that essay

she has those qualities about her but they are in fact like part of what's so magnetic and charming about her and she has this whole component of her this fierce hungry ambition that she very smartly left out of that essay because for her to even do that takes ambition I know but exactly and so there's obviously evidence of it and like I mean she was so popular as well like she was captain of the women's soccer team at NYU because she's not the dead outy sidekick following along. She's literally the captain giving the game plan. And she, the real Natalie Beach and not the character of Natalie Beach, encompasses all of the insecurity and jealousy and pain and anger that she put in that essay, plus all of the beauty

that she left out, all of her, honestly, charisma in her own way, all of her ambition, all her. She doesn't like, she honestly won't even settle for the sort of fame that you and I will settle for, which is sort of like the ephemeral buzz of social media on the daily. I love a little validation, sugar rush. It really does it for me. A little morning buzz. Yeah. Before I drink my ch-cha macha. Exactly. Chacha macha. But she wants like, you know, to be a famous writer. She doesn't want to be on social media, which is where you're getting confused. Because you're like, she doesn't want followers, so she doesn't want fame. No, no, no, no, no.

Natalie wants like, you know, when she dies, she wants to go down in history as like one of the great writers in our time. And why shouldn't she? I hate that even by saying that Natalie wants glory, it sounds like I'm talking shit against her. No, you're not. Because I just want to understand people's motives. I'm like, what was her goal with that?

For the record, I want glory too. I want to go down in history. was one of the great artists of our time. And, you know, I would never have been best friends with someone who couldn't keep up with me and didn't share that fierce, fierce ambition. Yeah. And also, most people have had tons of different friendships. I've had, you know, abusive friendship, toxic friendships.

Most friendships don't last. If you're lucky, you have, like, three close people in your life. So the article comes out exposing this friendship you've had with this girl. What's your next step? Well. Good things, bad things. Well, so Natalie gave me a heads up that the article was coming out about a week before it published. When was that some you'd talk to her?

About two years. Wow. It's almost like a little, like, what have you been doing? Like, why are you thinking about me? Like worry about yourself. No, no, I mean, I disagree. I think Natalie made such smart, smart choices by publishing that essay. And I really, I do feel anger and I do feel betrayal.

but above all else I feel respect for the intelligence of her being able to as soon as she told me she was publishing this article I've always had a better understanding of the internet than Natalie and she would tell me later on the phone that she didn't know it would go this viral like she thought it would be big but not this big and I can honestly say from the moment I got her email I I burst into teeth tears, Isabelle, who's in the room with us next to Adolf on their laptops, she was with me when I got the email, and I burst into tears for so many reasons because I was so ashamed of what a bad friend I'd been to Natalie, and, you know, I really, I really hadn't healed from that regret. And, you know, this experience forced me to really speed up that healing process because I just, if I didn't reach down into myself and find the strength to work through that immediately, no one else could do that for me. So I feel a lot more healed about it now, but I'd really been putting off for those two years examining the real depth of how I'd hurt her and taking

responsibility for that. Do you feel like she was kind of being a snitch? I haven't said that word in a while, but it's kind of like, is she just like telling on you? Like, she was mean to me. to the internet? No, I mean, I really, I really, I just see it in such a larger context of the smart business move. Like I had, she started working on the essay, she'd later tell me in February, which is the viral newsstorm that started January 15th. It lasted for about a month.

Which is insane, considering the new cycles. I wanted it to last that long because although it was really hard at first, and it really crushed me the first few days, I was really strong and I knew I wasn't running a scam and that was the number one thing I had going for me. So I invited reporters to my events and I was terrified but I also kept putting one foot in front of the other and I understood that the more press I got, the more that I could leverage this down the road because people's memories are very short and I'm very smart and I really believed in my ability to outlast and outthink the fickle attention of the internet and so would you be friends with Natalie again we are friends

I mean not in like not best friends yeah I get stressed out about texting her for sure but I definitely don't use this against me yeah definitely overthink it a lot and I definitely text her being like, I'm not sure if this is going to be in an essay of yours, but because I just, at least if she puts it in an essay, she won't be able to make me seem as if I were. I mean, she can really make me seem however she wants. But she's a really good person. And I really, I share the same hunger and ambition that drove her to write that essay in the first place. And so how can I begrudge her making a choice that I myself would have made in her same position? If I had access to a story, so she told me she started writing it in February,

which means that she waited for the dust to settle around the scamming stories, saw that I had made progress in changing the public's opinion of me, but I didn't pull off a 180 reversal. And she sort of just went in for the kill and started writing her essay, and I would have done the same thing. I mean, the cut paid her $5,000. That's crazy. money. Would you guys consider anything less than a championship to be a failure from this year?

I wouldn't say anything is a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. There's no doubt in that. And that's the goal. We want to win a championship. I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast in case you missed it with Christina Williams. The WMBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind-the-scenes moments you won't find anywhere else. It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have.

For all the biggest stories in women's basketball plus, exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars. So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way, and we're hoping to, you know, make it run. So listen to, in case you missed it with Christina Williams and I Heart Women's Sports Production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports, and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Would you guys consider anything less than a championship to be a failure from this year? I wouldn't say anything as a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. There's no doubt in that, and that's the goal. We want to win a championship. I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast, in case you missed it with Christina Williams. The WMBA playoffs are here, and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else.

It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have. For all the biggest stories in women's basketball plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars. So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way and we're hoping to, you know, make it run. So listen to, in case you missed it with Christina Williams and iHeart women sports production in partnership with deep blue sports and entertainment on iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast why was adderall your drug of choice i mean i've seen my personality like i mean it was so easy to hide

people were like yeah she seems a little off but it could just be her did you like the feeling of it i loved it i mean i think my least favorite part of being alive is when i'm really in my depression and my favorite part of being alive is when I'm really in my intelligence and my creativity and you know when I have some idea that I think is really smart and really resourceful and really artistic and I just sort of like fall into a wormhole of just getting obsessed with that idea and just pursuing it and that I can do that soberly like I did not get into Cambridge without razor sharp focus but how long were you addicted for increasingly over four years it was really bad for it was really bad for two and like

pretty bad and it was affecting relationships and stuff oh yeah totally i mean it's just like how many were you taking a day oh my god so much so much that my normal day was usually had two periods of darkness in it also known as night so i was just awake for three days my you know how addicts are like i won't drink before five or like i'll only have six drinks. Um, if you're drug of choice, drug of choice, drug of addiction, I should say, because addiction's not a choice. I want to be careful with my fucking language. For an alcoholic, you set rules and then, you know, a real sign of addiction is that you start breaking them. And one of my rules for myself was on the fourth night, I have to sleep. But my normal days

were like two days. What would you do during the night? I, honestly, were you like working or creating? No, no. nod and then you're like, nope. No, no, no, no, no. It was definitely counting the hairs on my head. The thing is, like, when you haven't been on Adderall and you take one Adderall, like, in a blue moon, you can get shit done.

Yeah. But if you've been on Adderall for 18 months and you're not sleeping and you're so tired, like, I would just do stuff like, I would take baths at, like, 3 a.m. Because, like, I would lose circulation in my limbs and was really cold in England. And I would do stuff, like, I would just read. I just read so many books, not for school.

I would read like YouTuber memoirs because I was like, I need to study the internet and the intersection of the internet and the written word. And I would just go down wormholes like that with just too much rapidity and speed. What made you stop? Honestly, you'll have to read my memoir to find out. I love that. Look at you, teasing. Yes, a little tease.

People also, I think, have some animosity towards you because you are very outwardly you own where you struggle and you also own where you feel confident about yourself yeah they hate both of those things they yeah they hate it all like way to attack women but um are you what are you insecure about physically oh good question honestly the most honest answer i could say is my stomach i don't really like yeah i've always felt like sort of a fat thing thin girl, which is really just the most honest thing I could say. I feel like so many people feel like that.

It's tough because I just, I just don't want to not acknowledge the thin privilege and the pretty privilege that very much exists for me. And I just, you know, white, thin, pretty girls, we are not the vanguards of the body positivity movement. Like, we are not the leaders on the forefront. And I just want to, it's hard for, I'm still learning how to express with the right language. The validity of my own insecurities, which haunt me, and the very relative ease with which my body is accepted by society compared to someone who has sort of, of a body that is less widely accepted and it's I'm still learning how to um like

hold space for those two ideas side by side it's funny because if we're I'm caught up on my caroline content you recently posted a photo of your stomach and your like bikini and your legs yeah I mean I should say that I'm I'm not self-conscious of my stomach now but historically that and that's been the thing that really bothered me growing up what are you in secure about about your body oh my gosh my body i get insecure about i thought about lying to you and being like something like my knees which i'm like sort of more at peace with yeah i actually what's the real thing that my thing is i as a tense wake i have muscular arms and i like whenever i wear um a spaghetti strap i'm very self-conscious that because someone when i was 12 years old called me man arms and i

like never forget it oh my god when i was looking at your instagram i was looking at how pretty your Aren't you, like, holding, like, a basketball in one of your photos? Yeah, it was like, oh, my God, her arms look amazing. And I've literally been like, I can't wear that shirt because my arms will look huge. Yeah, it's... It's all our perspective. But I brought up that photo because that photo has caused some controversy. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I want to give you my condolences. Thanks. Your dad passed away, which... He committed suicide. He committed suicide. And you posted a photo, and then you were just talking about your grief underneath it. I made the artistic choice to, I think the first three sentences are something like one month ago, my dad committed suicide. Five days ago, I found out I am grieving and, no, I am sexy and sexual and grief-stricken, and I listed a bunch of other adjectives, everything from, you know, zany and manipulative.

and ambitious and resilient and just I really it's important for me with what I create that it sort of carves out space for women to really inhabit a human identity that isn't just like the nurturing identities that we want women to have I am really passionate about how we really I've become increasingly aware of how we are so it's so easy for us to imagine you know a fully human three-dimensional man you know he he's an absolute monster in the boardroom gets deals done makes that money comes home loving father loving friend good heart good husband good brother good soul um and you know if something tragic happened And he's a man.

Of course he still gets to have a sex drive. He's like, of course. Like, you know, sexuality is part of being a human for him. And like, he wants to fuck. That doesn't make his grief less real or his capability as a father less real. And it is so hard for us to wrap our minds around the same concept for women. Like the idea that I'm grieving and want to fuck, oh, it's like, it's blasphemous. and I and you're aware of that and then you throw it out there and you're like people deal with it

well I'm not like people deal with it but I really think of my writing I think of my whole Instagram as art which I don't think a lot of people and I made the artistic choice to put shocking sentences next to each other shock is actually the word I was thinking like there's a shock value to it that you want a reaction from people and isn't that art giving people a reaction I don't want a reaction I think I think it's really wrong that people are like, you put this on Instagram so you're asking for people to be mean to you. It's like, fuck that. Like, oh my God, if I had a gallery show, would I be asking for people to come up to me at my gallery show to be like, this is shit.

This, like, I see why your dad killed himself. These paintings are terrible. But the fact that, like, people can comment, like, you were dead to your dad long before he died or, like, you know, I see why your dad committed suicide. On a post like that, that's totally fucked up. it's totally out of line. I'm not asking for feedback. I'm not accepting unsolicited criticism.

But when you post it, you know you're going to get a reaction. Do you care at all about it? No, I don't know I'm going to get a reaction. I really hate that attitude. Like, I think people can be shocked quietly behind their screens. And I don't think in the same way that you can go to an art gallery and you can be shocked by the work. Yeah.

And maybe it's not for you. Unfollow me. But even like positive reactions. people being like yes like I love that you're doing that I mean my criteria honestly I've blocked people who put too much on me just positively just in terms of like I really just sort of my cut off is is this helping me make more stuff or is it slowing me down and if something is sucking up my energy that I could be using to make shit they just they're gone and so If you live for the compliment, you'll die by going viral as a scam.

So I leave the positive comments up. And I think people really want to put a narrative of conniving, narcissistic woman onto me. You know, like, I only want to be, I want to live in an echo chamber of praise. But in reality, it's like, I know if I internalize the good validation that it's just as disorienting as, you know, taking to heart the criticism. I leave those positive comments up because they don't slow me down and I don't take them to heart and I delete the comments

that are like, you know, I see why your dad killed yourself or I address them. Those were really, really chilling. So I actually address those head on. But when it's smaller stuff just like someone... This is stupid. Yeah, actually a comment I deleted this morning was

these paintings are terrible and you're a dumb cunt. Just like something like that. Yeah. Even though you went to school in England. Oh, my God. The amount of times that people have called me a dumb cunt is a lot. If I had a nickel. Every time a stranger on the internet called me a dumb cunt. And you know, like, how many men who went to Cambridge have ever been called a dumb cunt?

One thing that we do align on is creativity and creating things is what helps. That's where I'm my happiness. That's when I'm living in the moment. I'm not anxious about the future. thinking about the past. I'm just expressing. And I think as an artist, that's just so important. Do you consider yourself an artist? I do. I consider you one too. Thank you. It's actually one nicest things. Anyone said to me in a while. Yeah. And I think, yeah, creating is just what I love to do. And even just sitting here right now, we're creating something that the world didn't have before.

Totally. And I'm so, I'm so happy you came and you've been so honest with me. I want to end with a final game. Okay. What? Are you ready? I'm so ready. It's called, it's not really a game, I'm just asking questions, but I like to call it a game because games are more fun. It's called The Seven Deadly Sins. Adolf wrote these beforehand, Game of the Notes. Seven Deadly Sins. What are you greedy?

By the way, you're going to get dragged into the viral storm that surrounds me. It's going to be like Carolyn Callaway and Hitler, who's still alive on podcast together. I'm burning in hell. Yeah. What are you... So you're welcome for the press is what I'm saying. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. What are you greedy about? Obviously, creativity workshops. Did you not hear the apology? How many did you end up doing total? I think seven. I mean, we continued the tour. We went to Texas as planned.

But you refunded anyone who... I refunded the first two events. Yeah. And, you know, I wouldn't have done that now. I would have, what I would have done, if it happened again tomorrow, I would just honestly be like, if you really feel like it wasn't worth it to you, I'll give you a refund. And I just ask them to make the choice because I know that they really enjoyed it. Who are you envious of? That's a really good question. Thank you. Um, you know, I try to make it no one,

but maybe Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah. Why? um because her engagement is so fucking good she writes as long as i do but she gets like 20 40 000 likes a post and i'm getting like fucking three so i would love to have that sort of engagement i feel like a lot of people ghost follow you oh yeah yeah exactly like everyone's just like kind of watching from afar yeah my story views are like off the charts um but and you know as crazy as sometimes we're more people will send a post of mine to people than people will like it yeah people that's crazy yeah it's like that's crazy but um but yeah like 4,000 shares on a post with 3,000 likes that's unheard of i'm jealous of how financially stable she is because right now i feel like i have to dilute to so much

of what i want to make with being a good business woman and i'm so jealous of how um people really see her as a valid teacher. And I feel like there are definitely more things that Elizabeth Gilbert knows that I know, but I know some things. And I just wish that I could be recognized and you know what, I don't even need to be recognized. It would just be so nice not to be laughed at as a joke every time I tried to assert my own qualifications or intelligence or a accomplishments. Like having to defend yourself a lot. I no longer defend myself. It would just be so nice not to be like, um, ridiculed at every turn. How is that affecting your mental health right now? Right now, honestly, my mental health has never been better. I go to therapy three

times a week. I'm on antidepressants. I mean, I'm fucking killing it, but it was really, really hard in the spring. And it was so, so hard. It was so hard. Like, I just, Just like, I can't even tell you how for those first two months, like January, February, March, my nervous system was like scrambled. Like, I would send a text and never in my life have I, has my brain gone to a place where I'm like, this person isn't answering me because they don't like me. But just every single stimuli in the world was your amygdala was like out of control. Yeah, it was just like. I just want to use that word. I love that.

I don't even know. it's like the stress whatever hippocampus is memory yeah exactly but um but you can get that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell but um but it's it's like those loop thoughts where like you can convince yourself anything like i convinced myself for a while that like i wasn't being myself for some reason because i had like a bad breakup and every time i sent a text i was like would I have sent that time? I got in a dark place. Yeah, that sounds terrible.

But then, like, when you're in those dark places, isn't it nice right now to be like, hey, I feel kind of loved or like, hey, I kind of feel like myself? Yeah, I feel so, I was just telling Isabel this. She was like, how is L.A.? And I was like, I have never felt so fucking powerful and so like myself. And I just feel, but the weird thing of it is, I would never wish going viral as a scam on anyone, even the reporter who started that Twitter thread in the first place or any of the journalists who perpetuated all of that misinformation, it did force me to double down on my mental

health because I was like, you had to face some darkness. Yeah, I have really, really, really, really had to like, I was forced to explore how much I thought maybe that I was a bad person and how much I really cared what other people thought of me. And I really, if people still liked me in the almost unconditional way that they did before, I went viral the first time this year. Like, I might never have had to examine those things in order to survive, but it really became a question of survival. At this point, how much do you care of people like you?

I mean, it's strange because the truth is it's this really crazy, like, circular loop that I figured out about my brain is like, I feel most confident and most unstoppable when I'm like, a lot. I care, I'm going to screen it as like, I care a lot when people fucking think about me. I really hope they like me.

I would like to be liked. And, like, just admitting that about myself really gives me, the unstoppable force of nature hurricane strength that I need to be like, yeah, I would love to be liked. Fuck you. If you don't, I have some stuff to do. I was talking to a friend about patterns, and it's almost like one of your patterns might be, I want to be liked by everyone. So the universe is like, let's make everyone on the internet mad at her for her to face her biggest fear and maybe break that cycle. Totally. And I still want to be liked, but I just, I feel so at peace admitting

you know what there's no point denying it like I'm a person who wants to be liked there is something refreshing about some of your captions when you're just like he's the one thing you're like yeah I want money and power yeah I was like yeah bitch yeah I was like yes bitch I mean I do and it's so crazy how just that phrase feels so triggering to some people it's so triggering to some people and it feels so foreign on my tongue like the first time I admitted it I knew it was true as soon as I said it but I was like oh my god does this make me a bad person like no one should know and it's just so crazy how we've been socialized as girls to really make our ambition palatable like you know we want to be working women we don't want to be gold diggers we don't want to be dependent like but we also are taught

not to want too much don't want money fame power glory that's you're not going to run the world that's for men to do exactly it's like the first time a girl was like maybe I want to be president and people are like, no, a girl needs to be president. What are you gluttonous about? Food is the first thing that came to mind. I just love the pleasure of eating. It's such a like, yeah, it's almost artistic. It's just delicious.

Oh, my God. The sensation. Someone should write that down. Food is delicious. Oh my God, did this girl go to Cambridge? She's right. She's so smart. She'll be able to survive anything.

You do a workshop about that? Yeah, with that intelligent. She does have some shit to all. You're like go-to when you're high at night and just want to eat something. There's a really good place that does fish tacos near me. But honestly, I'm like, I've been living there for eight years. And I realized the other day, I'm like, I might have had, you know, my 10,000 fish taco. And I might be fish-tacod out.

So I don't know. I'm sort of in a liminal place where I'm like, I'm open to a new go-to. But right now it's the final days of Rome. the grandeur of my fish taco. Let your palate evolve naturally. Let it happen. Exactly. When was the last time you experienced extreme wrath? Like, do you have an angry side to you? Yeah. I mean, I try to let myself experience anger more frequently. Because that's also not a feminine characteristic. It's not a feminine characteristic. Yesterday in L.A. I was doing another podcast. And the host was so lovely. Matt Delia, am I saying this right?

Dealia. Dealia. Delia. Delia. Yeah. He was so chill, so cool. And he was like, yeah, I don't get why people don't like. He was like very L.A. stoner vibe. I was like, oh my God, you're like, central casting. Send me like a very chic L.A. stoner.

He was like, yeah, I just like, I have really value the content that, uh, this is my L.A. voice. The content that, uh, creators make. Like, I don't get why people don't like influencers. Like, everyone follows them. I was like, okay, well, it's great. you feel this way. Like, I'm very happy that you're of this opinion, but no one else feels this way. And I just, it was like, I wouldn't say it was, it was definitely not at Matt, but it was

anger at just the way the culture is, um, wrapped up with the frustration of being like, okay, but like, it was frustrating for me to not only be like, okay, no one agrees with you, first of all. And second of all, it is so fucked up that no one agrees with you. And that just made me angry. It was just a perfect storm. Okay, next one. When was the last time you were a sloth? Because you've been just meeting after meeting, red eye therapy, my podcast, probably more shit. When was that time you chilled? Honestly, April. Like, truly. Like, I really, I really have been fucking grinding. I put out like 16 posts a day sometimes.

Like minimum like six. How do you find this energy? I mean, it's not. Especially without Adderall. Imagine if you were on Adderall. No, actually the great myth of Adderall addiction. I feel like I sort of got into this point earlier. So if you take it once in a blue moon, hyperproductive.

Hyperproductive. Do not be fooled. That is not what your life will be like when it's month 18 of Adderall. you're you're counting your hairs you know you're like you're like dig it you're like your face picking like you're it's not good you're like you're scarring yourself emotionally but also physically with your fingernails yeah um or like a tweezer like it's just not glamorous what do you do to unwind like after today when like you've you're probably exhausted do you like baths do you like just painting what do you like to do i got my nails done and i also got a massage

while I got my nails done but that means that I really have to go home and sell some art because it was a little over budget for me but no I'm just I'm not the last time I really rested was April when I was just really in so like I started therapy

in like March after just being like this is too heavy for me to bear alone and then after it took like March oh it took like a month to like get to know my therapist and for it to like start helping and April and May is when I really is sort of like,

I put one foot in front of the other in January and February that I just like really confronted the feelings of sadness that I felt about being disliked, about being someone who cared about being liked, about being someone who felt like I might be a little bit bad

about thinking my ambition was bad and I just like, I honestly was so depressed. I was just like crying in bed and just couldn't get out of bed and then the SSR eyes that I'm on honestly it's not even they started kicking in because they take six weeks to like build up in your brain but I've learned from my therapist that I have what he calls a magical

relationship with pills um which is very true because like I wasn't an alcoholic or like snorting lines of cocaine like there's something that I really love about taking pills and that really worked to my disadvantage when I was addicted to Adderall but really worked to my advantage when I started these SSRIs because like the first day- Is this the first time you've ever done? It's the first time I ever did them because after I quit Adderall, I was like, promise yourself never again.

No more pills. And then after a month of working with my therapist, he was like, you should really consider these. Did he diagnose you with depression or like general anxiety? He like re-diagnosed me. Like we sort of started from scratch, but like other therapists that told me that, that I just didn't like as much.

They were, except for the fact that they were. way more affordable but um yeah i was just really sad and cried a lot and then i started feeling the placebo effect of day one taking the pills got back on instagram grid posting and you know i had just come off of taking two years off and so i know for a lot of people they're like ma you work so hard but it's like yeah but i took two years off so i'm sort of making up but you also you were working during that time on getting your mind kind of right and i don't know if you could have handled this situation maybe if you hadn't given yourself a break i cannot tell you

how many times i have thought to myself my god can you imagine if i went viral as a scam during the height of my adderall addiction if i went viral as a scam even six months earlier when i was like in recovery but just not as strong like thank god i went viral as a scam when i did also when you're healthy mentally like work doesn't feel as heavy and like running around and doing what you love is fun But when you're depressed, everything feels like it takes so much out of you. After this, we're going to go take an Instagram photo on the streets of Soho with my beautiful yellow outfit, going to go back, make some art, going to work on this article that I'm posting, going to post about this podcast.

And your eyes are lighting up like you're excited about it. I'm so excited to make that art, sell it. Maybe my personal assistant will come over. And I'll work literally until I fall asleep, which I'm very tired. So that could be at like six. It could be soon. They'll be done within the hour. It could be like before you finish these questions.

I have two more. When was the last time you let your pride get in the way of something? I think the last time was actually on, I can't remember, but it was during my trip to L.A. There's this influencer who I was really excited to meet. We've been like online friends for like six months and I love her. She does really like her. her content is a mix of totally quirky, bananas, smart, hilarious, heartfelt stuff. And then she does a lot of just like standard influencer pay the bills sort of ads, you know,

just like short captions, but she's also, she's more famous than I am. She's much more of a safer bet for brands, obviously, than I am. She makes a lot more money than I do. And it was this weird moment when we finally met. She was like two hours late to this party that was happening in L.A. And I was pretty wasted by the time she got there because I was really nervous to meet these, it was this little party with some other internet people and we all got together and sort of like kept it off the record and had this secret little rendezvous in L.A.,

which is exactly what I thought internet famous people did in L.A., like go to someone's house and just be like, no one post. Like, it's like, no until, like, this would be so off brand of, like, anyone knew I was hitting this vape right now. Like, I was like, oh, my God. It's like, fitness implers just snort and cocaine. Exactly, exactly. I was like, this is exactly what I thought L.A. would be like. So the only reason I'm, I actually posted about this and the reason I'm talking about it now is because there's no way for people to find out because I kept it very secret.

Yeah, my ego got in the way because I was drunk. and I said to her, I meant to say something, like, I feel insecure about not making more money. I live very, like, month to month on rent. I feel like you are so creative and you have so many magnificent things inside of you. And what I said instead was, why do you do so many ads? And it was just the wrong thing to say in so many ways because I could tell that she was, defensive and insecure about doing so many ads and I tried to sort of drunkenly backtrack by saying you know like I meant because like I just think you're a real artist and and I didn't admit that

I had said that because I was worried that she would look down on me with everything that has happened to me you know she has a really squeaky clean press image and in that moment I was feeling really insecure that like, you know, maybe her cool, also famous L.A. friends would really judge her for hanging out with someone so controversial. And I think I just wanted to position myself as a real artist and maybe seem better in her eyes. And it ended up just really getting in the way of being friends. And I ended up having to apologize to her via text, which was just really humbling. You know, I didn't, I tried to handle it the best I could. at the time and then I asked her to hang out again because I was like I should apologize about

this and she was like I have a work event and then I asked her to hang out the next day and she was like I have a work event and I was like oh god I really have to apologize for this so I can't even say that I was brave enough to just flat out apologize via text my I was brave enough to ask her to hang out so that I could apologize in person and then your intuition knew forced yeah and then I just had to be like hey and what I told myself was you know I I I I I I think it's really humbling to accept the fact that, like, for so long, I carried this concept of, like, the best version of myself that if I just self-improved hard enough, I would attain a version of me that no longer fucked up. And that would be, I would be so happy. It would be so great.

But I realize now, and it's so frustrating and humbling to accept this truth into my heart, is that, like, the best version of me still fuck. up occasionally. Like when I'm being my best self, I will still get two drunk at parties and say the wrong thing and let my insecurities get in the driver's seat. And the best version of me does that and then just owns up to it and apologizes. And I just really owned up to being like, I meant to say this. What I said was this. I hope you can forgive me. Like I really value what you create. Everyone needs to pay the bills. It's very humbling to admit the best version of myself still fucks up and like I really fucked up and I'm sorry and I just had to sort of remember like if she's worth being friends with like someone she'll accept my apology and she did and

I think we're going to hang out in New York when she comes to her next to. What a great answer to that question because a lot of people get stumped on that one and you kind of just nailed it. I also think that the best version of yourself is the one that when you do mess up you're nice to yourself. Oh I love adding that into the mix. Yeah I haven't been really nice to myself. I'm like you dumb drunk bitch and like you stupid cunt with a cambridge degree like why why cambridge with a k you're so dumb yeah so final question cambridge more like cuntbridge oh my god i want to name this podcast yeah merch idea right there for me when was the last time you lusted over someone oh my god like earlier this morning um

Did you go see a boy toy? Yeah. Okay. So I saw this model in L.A. Who was just great. You met him on Instagram? You know, what's so crazy is I actually, I fucking met him on Hinge. Wait, this is so funny.

So my Hinge profile. When you were in L.A.? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. So I met him on Hinge back in July. And he's just, my Hinge profile fucking slays. Okay. it is like I should show it to you it's so good I have like just the perfect photos and my responses are like all Scientology jokes and they're so funny it's honestly I'll show you my Hinge profile after this and it's just like it's just like me pretending to be a Scientologist like recruiting people and I literally I have never hacked a dating app algorithm the way I've hacked Hinge like all like it's viral on Hinge.

No, all I get shown are models. Like literally every single person who's shown to me, it's like a modeling pick. And I'm like, fuck me up with those abs. Like, oh my God, that's fucking go. What's your type? I would say I have two types. One is like male model. I'm currently going through a chapter in my life that I would describe as pop bottles,

fuck models. But yeah, the male model in L.A. did not like that joke as much as you did. I hate being objectified when I love objectifying me out models. I'm like, why is your shirt still on when you're talking to me? And they're like, we're in a public place. Yeah, that's literally, that's literally me. I would text him photos of my art. I'm doing these Henry Matisse nudes.

And he'd be like, wow, great. And I'd be like, okay, so send me nudes. I'm talking to a model right now. He gets so mad. Just sent you nudes. Yeah. I'm like, I'm the funny one. You're the hot one.

Take your shirt off. Yeah. You're boring me. What are you talking? That's adorable. Yeah. Sometimes I was so cruel about it. A lot of people were making fan art of me.

I was in L.A. and I was showing it to him. And he was like, yeah, people paint me all the time. And I was like, well, they paint you because you're beautiful. And they paint me because I'm a creative genius. This is my mind. Yeah, exactly. And the same way, I'm like, did you just put a sentence together?

That's adorable. Now take your shirt off. But so I have that type. And then, like, gym rats. They're like, do you even lift, bro? I like a boy who you could. reasonably say like bro do even read like I like a really skinny intellectual boy I either like modely abs or I like someone who's just like wasting away in a library like they're just so thin

and intellectual that you're just like I hate boys who are too meaty like I love a model body or like you know lightweight crew and swimmers also sort of have those bodies they're smart they're not heavyweight crew lightweight it's funny because of my own insecurities of being manly i need like six four and up like i need to feel like a little dainty dandelion but that's my own insecurities on them um it's i think it's my insecurity of having applied my Cambridge degree in art history towards using instagram as an artistic medium that no one takes seriously or it's my insecurity of having succeeded on instagram with a really like normal body like i'm not i'm not famous because I'm hot. I think I'm hot, but I'm not. Dating male models is definitely ego-related.

It's ego-related. Me and you talk to our therapist about it, but I still love it. People are like, would you marry him? And I'm like, do I like his attention right now? Yes. Yeah. Shut the fuck up. Yeah. So that was the last time. You know, there's this other boy who's really smart who I'm sort of lusting over. I was just like, you know, is on my mind. I think I'm going to see him at the end of October and go visit the super smart Ivy League town where he is. But last time I don't, I guess, like, really felt less was with this male model because he was just, he was so hot. Oh my God.

I will literally show you. Would you date him? No, because he was really, he's one of the first people. He is the only person I've ever met who's Instagram famous, who genuinely doesn't care. Everyone else I've met, even if they've seen. said with their mouth. I don't care. I know just from knowing them that I'm like and even when he first told me that, I was like, well, I don't fucking believe you. But I really got to know him and like got to see him as a person. And it shocked me to find out that he really didn't care about fame.

And that was lovely about him and he was really, he was so lovely about my grief. And I feel like he really understood me. But what was really tough about being with him was he wanted all the perks of my fame. Like, he wanted me to help him with this company that he's building and post about it, and he wanted to interview me and interview my friends. But he hated that anyone like Reddit trolls figured out that, like, I was seeing him and would message him. And he wanted me, he wanted to just be erased from the record. And I'm fine, I'm fine being like, I'm not going to tell you this person's name. I'm not going to describe them. I'm not going to tag them. I'm not going to put them in photos. I'll hide their face. But it's, I draw the line at

being like, I'm going to lie. Yeah. Because like I did that once four years ago. And guess what? I, I know I hated it. And to lie and like pretend like that's not happening when it is. It was just really. There's a lack of authenticity to it. Yeah. And it just, I do want to date him because he's so hot and he's so kind but I don't want to date him because I really want to embody the idea that like this is this is the whole package like you can't pick and choose what you like about me you can't and sometimes really hot guys get away with what they want as in like I just want this of you or that of you and it's it's empowering of you to be like yeah it's all in me or nothing yeah he told me he had never been rejected in his whole life and I really believe him he wasn't one to lie I was

like, can you imagine living your whole life and everyone you ever have a crush on always wanting to be with you? He can't be sane if, like, all his interactions are positive in life. I don't know. He seemed pretty sane. I mean, I think he had some blind spots around cherry picking from, the worst part was he was like, no, because he didn't like me for my fame. And that was really true.

So when he'd be like, no, I don't care that you're famous, he would say it and mean it. But his blind spot was seeing the ways in which he wanted to, like, benefit from my connections, from my ability to help his business, from, honestly, being around the humor and wit and sparkle that made me this famous in the first place. Like, I'm very fun to hang out with. And it's like, he wanted all of those things. And no models love a girl with personality, like a good hang, because it's not, their industry isn't known for the best personalities and wit, let's be honest.

Exactly. So to wrap it up, because I keep saying last question, This is my actual last question that I ask on every single episode. What advice would you give people to cope with their hell? I would say don't get out of it. I mean, I think that the framework of this question is flawed. Because coping implies, if not fixing, then sort of, you know, stumbling through or surviving it. But the point is really, I think a better question would be like,

what advice would you give people to help them accept their hell? Because the idea is not that you want to survive hell or fix it or change these flaws of yours that, I don't know, whether those flaws are characterological or they're just behavioral patterns that you keep finding yourself in, or they're crazy shit that the world throws at you, like your dad committing suicide or going viral as a scam or having your ex-best friend, right? an essay throwing you under the bus, there are lots of different ways to find yourself in pain. But when you do, I think you just really have to not being honest about your insecurities or your desires or your struggles doesn't make them any less true.

It just keeps you from being fully seen by others and by yourself. Caroline Calloway, you've been through hell and back. You survive this hell. I'm so grateful for you coming and being so open, so eloquent, so honest. Where can people follow you? And also you have some art that you're selling. Give me like the rundown. Okay.

Well, so, oh my gosh. You're so nice. Before this podcast, she's like, is there anything you want to promo? And I was like, no, I just want to have fun. And my manager who's in the room was like, your art that you're selling. You should buy my art, but really you should just follow me because my art is good. you may not like the paintings or you may not like some of the posts but in general I have a good ability to make shit that people want and I put out a lot of really good content so you should follow me on Instagram at Caroline Callaway and if you don't like it then you should unfollow me because I also want you to just you know live your best life and I don't want you to have a toxic relationship with my account the woman the myth the legend thank you for coming to hell I'll talk to you guys later Bye.

Whatever team Fia is on, has a chance to win the championship. I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast, in case you missed it with Christina Williams. The WMBA playoffs are here, and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind-the-scenes moments you won't find anywhere. else. It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have. So listen to, in case you missed it with Christina Williams and IHeart women sports production in partnership with deep blue sports and entertainment on IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.