Berner Phone - Francis Ellis: Mansplaining & Falling From Grace

Episode Date: November 26, 2022

Francis is back in hell and we have both been through a lot since the last time we recorded. We've lost jobs, got married, and learned a lot about life. He asks me about Tiktok and the rules of feminism. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Burning Heaven Let's talk about mansplaining. Can we talk about mansplaining? Yes. Wait, let me do a quick intro. As you can tell, the man mansplaining me is Francis Ellis. You guys, he has a long time friend of the pod.

I was so nervous to have you on my first time. Because I didn't know you And I asked my friend Like who should I have And they were like oh Francis is great I think it was actually Raina and Ashley That recommended you And I was a little nervous

Because you played lacrosse So you obviously have some red flags In your past Oh boy And we met And then since then Like we've been a part of each other's careers ups and downs

And we've been fast friends Yeah you're pretty cool You're cool too You're um I like to follow your lead I do you you show me how hard I could be working and how hard I should be working but also you're a fucking Division Ivey leaguer and so are you Wisconsin Wisconsin was a strong school it wasn't the Northwestern I've played tennis with you

you are a true world-class athlete I don't know if the people at home are aware of just how good you are at tennis. Do you talk about it a lot? I had to stop talking about it because people were complaining that I talked about tennis too much. All right, then let me say for the listeners at home

that Hannah Burner is a proper like 0.01% athlete. Oh, wow. I mean that. You hammer the ball. Playing tennis with you was so much fun. We should do it again. It was so much fun.

Yeah. With Julio, your boy. who I have to have on the pod. It's good to have him there with us because then when we can trade me out, the two of you can actually play at the Division I level. My favorite is you would miss

and then you would yell, that's not who I am. You've always been so good at just being too introspective. Well, I know on the tennis court what hero shots are how to go for them, but I don't execute them because they don't have that ability. You played not within yourself. Yeah.

They would say. And so I try to do the Raphael Nadal, you know, cross-court ball that lands just over the net because there's so much topspin on it. And I just frame it over the backstop. And it's funny you say that I'm very hard working, but I actually admire you and I feel like how you have your life together. I feel like you eat healthy. I feel like your apartment is clean. I feel like you have good hygiene where I feel like I'm kind of a reckless rat who's like on the. the hamster wheel.

Yeah. And then when it's time to go home, I'm just like, do you not take care of yourself? No. Really? I mean, I shower every night because my hair will get greasy. But I have problems with keeping,

oh, sorry for making this about me and my problems. But no, I'm more, I'm curious about it. I'm kind of messy. And I'll wear like the same outfit for like six days. What time do you go to bed at night? Be honest. be honest one to two really and what time do you wake up in the morning 10 to 11 wow okay so that's you're a comedian I'm I'm a comedian I don't I can't be a comedian no but I do have to say I don't like going out

at night I don't even want to be doing shows at night I want to be lying on my couch scrolling at night oh crosswords I like a crossword are you crossword or are you crossword or are you TikToking for eight hours a day. Both. Yeah. But I mean, you were complimenting my TikTok earlier. There's only one way to get there. I wonder if TikTok, if you have to be an eight hour a day, scroller.

Do you think they're rewarding me? In order. No, I don't think that. I think your content would be there. I just, I just, every TikToker I've met who has a huge following like you also spends eight hours a day watching other. Everything was trending. If the news has not hit my TikTok or Instagram memes, I don't know what happened.

Like, Des will be like, did you see this huge thing that happened in Ukraine? And I'm like, are they making memes about it? Then I didn't see it. So that's, I'm not perfect. Well, my tradeoff is that I have a source of pride in that I won't let whatever the Chinese tribunal. I like to picture, are you a Harry Potter person? I've watched it. All of them?

Not necessarily by no the character. Okay, so towards the end, the Ministry of Magic became this sort of like dark Supreme Court that was run by Madam Pomfrey, who I think that's right. And she was a bad egg and totally abusing her power. And I like to think that the people at TikTok who are pulling the strings who are saying we're, like this person, we're going to put their stuff in front of everybody. And we're going to plug this into the for you page or whatever. We're going to really pump these people up.

They are only rewarding the, well, what I was going to say is I have pride that they haven't figured me out. My, whenever in the rare times where I do go on TikTok to like just scroll, which I really don't do, it is such. a mess. And they have no idea what I like. They have no idea. What's on your for you? I don't know.

I don't know. But it's nonsense. What you say when you just have a lot of boobs on it? No, it's, you could, you want to pull it up right now? No. I don't know. It could be lawn care techniques and how to cut your cat's fur and like, what, what, who knows? I don't have a cat. Mine is so fucking specific. Nor do I have a lawn. Exactly. And I, it's, I'm prideful over the fact that, ha, ha, ha. You can't figure me out. I'm nimble, you bad ministry of magic Chinese TikTok people. Wow. And I, and yet the tradeoff is I have a paltry following on there.

Your vocabulary is so fantastic. It is so small compared to yours. It is humiliating. My vocabulary is small compared to yours. But I like to, I speak with my hand. I'm Italian. We can't monetize our vocabulary. You can monetize your TikTok.

Actually, we've, Francis and I love to get into really deep discussions. And I was thinking we're talking about like why we do certain things. You chose to take TikTok or you choose to buy healthy stuff or to clean your room. I was talking to my therapist about deciding to do things based off of fear or based out of love. Wow. And when I think, oh, I'm going to go to the gym or I'm going to. or I'm going to post on TikTok because I'm scared

I'm not going to be relevant that's bad energy but if I go I'm going to post on TikTok because I love creating and I love connecting or I go I want to work out because I love making like feeling my body move

so that's helped me overcome some storylines in my head that get me off the couch that's really good that's a much better way to do it so if you change your perspective of a Harry Potter sorcerer trying to attack

you on TikTok, maybe you can make it a place of enjoyment. I don't know. But you'll probably save so much time in your life. Well, it's that and it's also, I tried to, let's do an exercise.

Because you are, you are an expert. And I wish I possessed your knowledge. Literally a Harvard grad right now is saying, I wish I possessed your knowledge of me doom scrolling all day because I'm running from my own thoughts. I think that's negative thinking.

It is, but I think the positive love thought about you and your TikTok habits are I need to know what's relevant and topical so that I can be at the forefront of trending ideas and continue to amass fans and people who enjoy what I do so I can share my humor with the world and have more people come out to my shows to make more money and ensure a more comfortable livelihood for me and my family. this is going to be a little bit of a hot take TikTok saved my life I would argue that I was like Instagram became kind of like a hateful place and then like I was on a medium where I felt like I wasn't I lost control of like my identity and shit and TikTok became a place where I could just rawly show who I am to people who didn't know who I was yeah so I got a high off of that did uh was that all was that Instagram was that from the the was that from summer house reality show stuff yeah like there was just a lot of like hate on Instagram Instagram could be negative or TikTok do I got bullied

occasionally by 14 year old yes and fuck that 14 year olds I'll fuck their shit up but it was more like because of the algorithm like I just posted a video like about liking girls who laugh really loud and obnoxiously and it's literally going to girls that they think loud laugh loud and obnoxiously based on their content so those girls are finding me and saying i want to be your best friend and i'm like holy fuck i'm starting a cult a loud laughing obnoxious feminist war zone that doesn't sound all that fun i don't know how many of those meetings i'd want to go to i hope that's not anti-feminist it's anti-noise um so anyway that's how i'm doing yeah okay so here's What's this activity?

The question I had, the exercise. Yes. Pitch me why I should spend more time and commit more to TikTok from a standpoint of positivity and love, as you said. Oh. Well, I would argue you're ready. You love creating content, right? You're putting out content.

What's the goal when you put out content? You know, reach people. Reach people. Game fans. Gain fans. Have them come to my shows, make more money. Those are all beautiful things. You guys, we're sitting in, like, therapist chairs, and this is getting really intense.

Actually, this is giving, like, inside the actor's studio. Are you 100% sure this is recording right now? I hope it is so bad. Did you check the sound? Yeah, she said it's recording. She did. She knows. Yeah.

Okay, this is the thing. This is just mathematics. The way Instagram works is it sends the content to people who know you. and follow you and support you. It's not a discovery app. You literally just said you want to reach people. Oh, yeah. So TikTok is a discovery app

where you post something and it sends it not to your followers to a random group of people and if they engage, it sends it out to more random people and if they engage more random people so there's actually a chance for things to go viral on TikTok.

So if you're going to be creating all this content and you want to spread, spread your seed, you want to spread your seed, to the world, it's, it's just like logical that you posted to TikTok. Okay. So then do I need to do it or could I hire someone who really knows TikTok to run mine?

Yes, you can hire someone. I could do it. You could literally send them your stand up and say, can you cut some clips, send it to me, let me approve them. If I like them, post those clips, tag them the right way. Post two to three a day. Thank you. and then you take old podcast clips

that are still relevant Evergreen, send them all that too so doing podcast clips, stand-up clips also I use TikTok for joke writing so I'll think of something funny you do this all the time like when you're walking and you do on Insta stories

you think of a funny premise you kind of come up with a punchline and you put it out there and if people respond refined it a little try it on stage I have a whole Bachelorette sketch

that started from me just wanting to come up with something funny for TikTok. I'm not sketched like bit. I have one of my closers is from me just talking about guns on TikTok. So if you said once a day I want to think of a funny premise

and just say it to TikTok, it's a writing thing. Yeah. I mean, I'll fucking sell you on this all day. It may be, given what you just said, it may be that my hesitation about TikTok and everything I've said to you

is really just a smokescreen for my own laziness. But that's the thing. I don't think you're lazy. I'm not lazy, but maybe I still do have the capacity to do more work. I don't think it's laziness. I think it's anxiety. Well, I don't fear, I've gotten over the fear of negative feedback. I don't really feel that that much anymore.

But I'm saying, like, is it kind of just anxiety to be like, oh, I have to put more things on my plate? that might not be worth it. That's unknown. It feels exhausting. Because that's what I dealt with before I was on TikTok. Because I don't think you're lazy. This is going to be me saying something that you're going to disagree with.

I fundamentally think TikTok is bad for the world. No, I agree with you. But what are your reasons? Well, I think that it is, I think it's a way for China to corrupt the, youth of America and take their minds away from more educative or meaningful pursuits because the amount of time that young people are spending on the app is mind-boggling. On a larger scale, I think social media is the reason for most, like so much mental health issues, depression, anxiety, social media as a whole. But TikTok under the umbrella of so bad because of social media,

I think it's better than Instagram because Instagram creates this perfect lifestyle and aspirational where TikTok is more raw and that's why more comedy people do better there than Instagram I see

and it also the algorithm could be for anything it's not just a dancing app so like if you're reeling to politics you will get political TikToks all day so like are you're willing to cooking you're going to get cooking all day

so there are ways but ultimately I just do think I miss the days when, like, you didn't have a social profile. I don't know if you remember it pre-MySpace. Just... Oh, I remember. I think I was like 11.

But we had the same amount of anxiety then. We feared terrorism in the same way that I fear TikTok. That was, well, I just thought any day that I was walking, I would get caught in a roadside bomb. Yeah. in rural Maine. I forgot you were in Maine. Yo, I don't think Al-Qaeda is wasting their time on rural Maine.

Do you miss rural Maine? I miss it deeply, categorically. Rural Maine, we quarantined there and the world slowed down. And at first it felt very quiet and isolated. And the longer we were there, the more I started to think how I'd, didn't need so much stuff. And it siloed life and it simplified and we started looking at places up there. Wow. We would get drunk and go on real estate listings with like a broker with no intention of. With a physical broker. Yeah. Poor guy. Drunk with the broker. He had no idea that we were

like not even really considering it. Dude, Zillow window shopping is my shit. Yeah. And I love being like I would never and it's like a home you can't afford and you're like bad taste is how could they the windows really an extension on the east wing disgusting yeah yeah there's certainly not enough room here for my family of 17 that we're going to have my poor wife where's your wife from again she's from Pennsylvania is it like a suburban area yeah yeah a lovely area it's right where Washington crossed the Delaware to double back on the Hesians on Christmas. Do you know about that?

No. It didn't come up on my TikTok algorithm. Do you remember in the Revolutionary War? I wasn't born. In 1776, the British, we said we don't want to be part of England. We don't want to pay taxes to England anymore. Yep. no taxation without representation yes and the british said get in line you're our colony we own you right

and george washington and our army of you know guys farmers who picked up rifles got in you know got into it uh said we're going to fight for our rights to be our own country and um we fought we fought the British. And they were way better. They were way better than we were. Yeah, how did we beat them? Well, we just retreated for a really long time. We retreated. Yeah. We retreated for a really long time. We retreated from Long Island across from Brooklyn Heights, across the river to lower Manhattan, and then all the way up Manhattan. By the way, they're fighting us. They're chasing us. And they're way better than we are. And they then all the way, over to the west side in like northwest Manhattan like kind of upper west sideish and then we went

over to Jersey again crossed the Hudson this time they were like oh it's gross here yeah and we retreated all the way through Jersey across the uh across the Delaware River yeah I believe you cross the Delaware into Pennsylvania and then we like set up camp there and there's that famous painting that you've definitely seen of George Washington in the boat. Exactly. And that was when Slay. It was Christmas. And the British had hired a bunch of German guns for hire, the Hessians, right? And they were celebrating. They were getting drunk. And they were in their camp. And Washington said, we're going to now, we're going to go, we're going to counterattack. We're going to stop fleeing. We're going to go attack. We're going to cross the river. We're going to attack. We're going to attack.

and we surprised them and that was like the turning point of the Revolutionary War do you remember British Dave? Yeah I used to do this guy British Dave

I liked him he's such a nice guy honestly awesome and I I would always be like you lost the war to us and his excuse was like honestly we had too much admin

we had like so many countries we were running we literally forgot we were in a war admin and to this day whenever I like don't do anything I go It's too much admin. I can't do it.

I like that. But yeah, that was really informative, Francis. Yeah, there's a great book 1776 by David McCullough, which is, it reads quickly. It's exciting because it's really exciting. So your wife is from there. She's from right around very, very near the spot where Washington. Is she as passionate about it as you are? No.

No, but she grew up in this lovely area and she loves that area and has very, fond memories and has brought me there many times and well it's interesting when two people come together congrats on your wedding you know thank you since our first pod you guys can listen to it we've both gone married we've both had entrepreneurial careers we've both had a lot of changes in our life but would we say false from grace i would say we've had false from grace would you call yours a fall from i don't want to be insulting i absolutely yeah i had a fall from grace and you did an ego death ego death Do you know what an ego death is?

No We could argue that we both had a certain ego in our career and then whatever happens to you destroys your ego you lose everything that you thought was important to who you are

so then you're just raw and you have to rebuild and see life through a new lens that isn't based off of that old ego which we actually didn't need wow that's true that is true you agree a hundred percent like you're a way different person i am you were when you first were at bar stool yes i had to be you know something though hannah burner yes here's the thing right the old ego is shed and the things that we thought

defined us oh now we become new monsters well we learned that we could succeed on our own and that in a way gives you more confidence yes that's a sturdier ego foundation this is a very powerful moment in the pod because I do feel like we both had an ego death

we both fell from grace and I learned I want to ask you what you learned I learned not to make it about me but that I could survive it so once you go holy shit my biggest fear happened

I survived it it's not that you're like that much better than you were before it's that mentally in your head you are so much stronger to like whatever the future holds for you if you know what i mean like you know when you're younger and like you go through one breakup or like one bad test or a teacher gets mad at you and you feel like your world's over like i guess this is us maturing there's power there's power in realizing you're fine and not only fine but potentially better, doing better at a point. You get to a point where you're like, wait a second,

I'm now ahead of where I was before the fall from grace. And also what defines ahead? Like what defines success? I think fundamentally it was like I was making more, once I all of a sudden there was a point that took a long time, but there was a point where I was making more money. And I thought from just a data standpoint, I was like, that's undeniable.

that is a i i'm further along at this point than i was two and a half two years ago whatever besides the financials how has your relationship with yourself evolved in terms of like self-hate or forgiveness or you know your point of ego death rings true because i'm i would say i became a lot humbler yes and it's there's peace in that same um you know i i i i find myself i guess with with more local aspirations now which i don't know if that's true for you what's a local aspiration you know i used to think little wins it's it for i used to think my my my sky used in my mind used to be unlimited there the sky was the limit. It was like I could end up in Madison Square Garden or on Saturday Night Live or hosting

the Tonight Show someday and all these things are just a stepping stone and I can't wait to get to that top of the mountain. And now, after having gone through that and lost it and and then slowly coming back. I think now I'm like, hey, you know, getting this is great. Making 10% more a year is great. Being able to turn work down so that I can spend more time with my wife is a luxury that I have to earn and being able to buy a place that we can escape to on the weekends or, you know, have an extra bedroom in an apartment for when we maybe want to have a child and I don't know, maybe afford a nanny so that she can get back to work sooner. We can get back to work sooner. Like balance our lives because we can afford help. Those are my dreams now.

It also sounds like you've become more grateful. Yeah. Like the little things that you want that you aren't taking for granted, which is powerful. Yes. But I also would argue, unless if you've completely changed your goals, I would argue that you're just going about your dreams differently, where before it was like, I want all of it now. I think it was very self-serving before. It was very, it was very arrogant the way that I viewed myself. Because I had not, you know, it's when you're young

and you go from not being anything to kind of having success and all of these followers and people, saying, whoa, this is great, this is great, or, you know, this is terrible, you believe both extremes. And you live and die by the feedback of people and you don't, you don't, you know, you don't put stock as much into what matters, which is like your parents being like, you're doing great and we're proud of you. Like, that's true. Or your wife or whatever. you just think, man, the people have spoken, and I'm as good as the fact that I have all these people.

Or like you're literally as good as the last comment you read. Yeah, exactly. And now there's just a little bit. It's just gentler waters. And I'm very happy with that because, you know, the other part of it is that you realize all of this is just a job. It's a job. And I could lose it again.

And if I lost it again, I would find other work. I know how to do it. I know how to make money in different places. I know how to cobble together, different revenue streams. And I also know that my work is not my full identity. Yeah. It's not the thing that defines me. What defines me is my relationship with my wife, my family, playing with the dog,

you know, learning, learning from people, my friendships. that's so much more of the heartbeat of my persona, I guess, if that makes sense. I'm really proud of you. Well, thank you, Hannah. Because that's, that's, like, confidence, and that is something that's like, have you read the book Stoicism? I have not. I haven't either, but you should. I literally don't read.

But I heard it's about, like, learning to be stoic. not about the highs and lows, but finding that, like, owning what stoicism is? I don't really know what it is, but... Stoicism is, is this mansplining? Let me ask you this. I set you up for mansplaining. I'm nervous about mansplining. I...

Let me ask you, what is manspining? Oh, yeah, this is how we started the pod. What's manspining? Tell me what mansplained. Man spain, woman spain manspining to me. Oh, hell yeah. Well, for my experience, oh, for example, when I was at the University of Wisconsin, I come from a basketball family. My grandpa was a basketball coach. My dad was a basketball coach. I grew up just

watching basketball. I know a lot about basketball. And at the end of my tenure, I worked as a sports broadcaster briefly. So, like, I got the job. I did whatever to do to get the job. And I'm watching a game. And one of the guys is, like, has 14 rebounds and, like, 10 assists. And that's a double double and I know I'm definitely going to write about it and then some guy comes over and he's like okay so that because it's two digits and that's two digits that's a double double so that's an example of like mansplaining when it's like I know it but like because I'm a woman you thought I didn't know it okay or or like you're in a meeting and someone says like a guy just assumes that you don't understand something for their own ego to feel like very they know it and you don't okay so that's

what I thought. So you did woman spline because I knew it already. I did. No, but, but this is my question. Do you have to know the material already in order for me

for it to be mansplining? I would argue yes. Okay. Someone just explaining something that you don't know is just explaining something, but mansplaining is when it's shit you know and they're assuming you don't.

But what if it's something you don't know, but I'm assuming that you don't know it because you're a woman. And I explain it to you in condescending terms. Oh, that's a very good question. Isn't that still mansplining? Like, like, what if, what if, let's, let's go back to the Revolutionary War one we just did. Yeah, I don't know.

What if the way that I had explained that to you was like, like, like, you know. My thing is I would argue that like, whether you're a guy or girl, it's not, it doesn't, you can be a different, a war buff regardless. And I also don't know about it, so I wasn't offended. But if I was sitting here and, you know, you didn't know I played tennis and you started fucking explaining tennis to me or like there's a lot of mansplaining

with even like comedy well now we're getting into like like I walk into places it also could be my own perspective too like I'll walk into a place and I know that they don't think I'm a comic working that night and sometimes I'll purposely have like a chip on my shoulder and like walk

by security like daring them to be like excuse me then I turn and I go I'm a comic and they go oh sorry when that might happen to every single dude that walks in. But because I'm a woman and I know they definitely don't think I'm a comic, I like, I have that frame of mind. Do you wonder, do you ever, is there any chance that you are not giving people a chance? I think I'm projecting, but based on like previous experiences. That's fair. You know, but I know I'm projecting because sometimes I'm like, okay, they don't

know you. Like, they don't know any of the comics. You have to say, hi, I'm a comic. but sometimes they'll be like stuff like because I'm a girl and I know that and some guys I don't get mad if they mansplain things that annoy me is like I used to work in sales

and guys would just assume that I wouldn't know certain things or I would say something and they would like repeat it to the boss and the boss would be like oh well guy explained it to me so I get that

I get that and the kind of the boys club communication where you're like no but I said that I literally said well that to me is just like sexist yeah that's sexism yeah and I think but I would argue that like I woman explain uh to men like certain things like I would assume maybe like bravo I would explain to you how bravo works

assuming you don't watch bravo yeah and I'm trying to think if I would ever get offended if you explain something to me that I already knew and I assumed that you were doing it because you know I'm a man but I would argue that like knowing about feminine type things things is not like a flex, so you wouldn't care? That is, that's, those are your words. No, that is societal. Okay, but I don't think that, I don't think that, you are uniquely, you are uniquely metrosexual.

Yeah, but I don't think, can you say metrosexual anymore? 100%. Okay, just. I don't think, I don't think feminine things are not cool. No, it's not that you don't think it's cool, but I'm saying there's masculine. This is like, we're getting, I have to think. There's more masculine things that are respected in society. Like, for example, fashion, influencing.

Giselle is making so much fucking money doing that shit. But it's not like respected, even though she's making more money than Tom Brady. Tom Brady universally gets more respect with his career than her career of modeling. Is it because it's a female-oriented thing? Teaching. Why is teaching? Why are they making such little money? Is it because it's a female-oriented career?

Yeah, yeah. Man, there's a, there's a lot to unpack there. And I think you're right. I know you're right. I know that this, that we still value, let's call them more traditionally masculine, I guess, pursuits. And I have internalized misogyny. Cultural things, yeah. Like I would, like when I was little, actually, when I played tennis on the boys' tennis team,

I got in trouble in an interview. because I said, I want to play like the boys and all these feminist bloc and that's just what you learned as a kid. You don't want to throw like a girl, you want to play like a boy. Right. And all these feminist blogs took it.

They were like, this is problematic. That was early on cancellation. Did you get in trouble for that? Well, I was definitely getting hate from it, but as a kid, I really like got really interested in what feminism was after reading it. And being like, oh, wait, that's kind of cool that if you speak, how you speak affects

how people view the world. but but this is this is something that um i find troubling okay and i'm worried about what i'm about to say this is a safe space it's not this might be a tic-tac clip i don't know yeah um this is something that i'm i'm troubled by which is that and you you mentioned it there is sometimes a wall is put up before you're given a chance And what I mean by that is I like to consider myself somebody that is a little bit more enlightened and an ally and, you know, willing to defend feminism and, you know, marginalized groups and all of that. And sometimes people just assume because I'm a straight white man that I'm the enemy. Because you have a Trumpy head?

Sure. And I'm not asking for, like, sympathy over that. I'm just saying you might gain some valuable soldiers in the fight if we were a little bit more willing to say, like, maybe we can get that guy. Maybe that guy is with us. Well, that's why I think this conversation is very powerful, because we are having a very open, pretty comfortable dialogue of you being like, what does this actually mean? what does that mean and me saying does that make sense to you or am I projecting it on myself? And that's what I think it's about. It's about feeling you can have conversation. I do argue because you have a good jaw line that it can perturb people. I do think that there's a little bit of

like, yeah, you just, you project privilege in a way that I've never seen before. It's, it's your face it's your aura but i can't i can't help that and then therefore you get into and i can't help that i have a vagina and i get treated differently exactly so and your and your cause is more no marginalized in mind yes i don't i don't think we all are living our own experience and what i do think people can take from what you said is let's be more open to dialogue. I think it's like yo, you might

miss out on some really valuable people that would be willing to play on your team. Oh, fucking for sure. And that isn't to say that if a woman looked at me and was like, fuck you, I know what you believe, you don't, you're not on my team. That

all of a sudden I'm going to be like, you know what? If you don't want me, I'm going to go play for the other team. Fuck women. That's not it. I will always be on the side, the right side. I, I, I, that's, but, but if you don't, if you don't have space in your heart, if you don't have space to believe or, or welcome someone over, or, or give them a chance, um, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to sort of fight alongside that person. Have you had an experience?

Many times. Can you give us an example of what you mean? Yeah, let me think. Now I need to not lie. I can't lie about this. This has to be real. But you also, you can change the names. Here's one.

Okay. I've had two interesting, two totally opposite experiences in an elevator. One time I was in an elevator and I was with some of my friends and I know to let women out of an elevator first. Okay? And one of my friends doesn't know that. and he tried to go out first and the woman put her arm on his chest and said no no you wait for me

and she walked out we were young we were in college and i was like wow cool you know what i mean like that's fine that's funny yeah she put him in his place yeah for an unwritten rule of chivalry right and i've had the exact opposite that experience happened since, which was I was in an elevator with a woman and I, the door opened and I said, after you. And she said, what? You think that you need to wait for me because I'm a woman? And I said, no, just trying to be polite. She said, well, don't do that. And then she walked out. Wow. Well. So those are fundamentally incompatible experiences. And again, I think it goes back to the communication of, like, people have different opinions, but are you willing to discuss something like that?

Because for me, I actually, I don't have strong opinions on it, but I don't love when, like, strangers are like, let the girl go. I don't like being thought of as, like, the female, let the female go, but I'll never be offended by it. If I'm on a date, I kind of like it. Yeah. But, like, it goes, like, it is very fluid. It's weird. It depends on the context. the person at a bad fucking day that day. But I really love your openness about it. And you are an

ally to the Burning Hell community. Thank you. And I do think like, holy shit, you've done so much amazing work on yourself and continuing to do. And I just can't wait to see where you go. And I can't wait to have you back on the pod to talk more shit. Francis, where can people follow you? See you live. Yeah. Give me the goods. Listen to you. It's been an honor to be here. I really appreciate. appreciate it. This was cool. This is, this is, this is cool. We could talk for hours. I know. You can check out our podcast, myself and beloved fellow friend and comedian, Julio Golarotti, Hannah's done it. Oops, the podcast. It's very fun conversation among friends. Sort of, you know, mining the male neuroses a bit, which is kind of fun. And then, yeah, you can just follow me on

Instagram and Twitter and all of that. Look me up, Francis Ellis, you'll find me. that's it. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. And thanks for coming to hell. Bye, guys.