Berner Phone - Ginny Hogan: Toxic Femininity & Zoloft

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

Ginny is a comedy author and stand up. She shares with Hannah her creative process for writing articles, books, comedy, and tweet. She also opens up about her anxiety because, well, she's in hell.--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berninginhell/support Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was like, why don't I take, like, Zoloft? Like, everyone I know is on Zoloft. And she was like, is it working for them? And I was like, no, not really. I'm like, no, not really. Welcome to Burning Hell. Okay, let's get the party started. What is up, you guys?

I am in the scary, dark depths of hell. It is a very, very hot one today. I am with comedian. writer Ginny Hogan, also Tweetmaster, Flex. Thank you so much. I'm so happy you've come to hell today. You're like one of those people I'm excited to have on because I could tell already that you're smarter than me.

You're a stand-up, but you also write for the New Yorker, the Atlantic, the New York Times, Cosmo, the Observer. Forbes profiled you as a rising satire star, and you're also a top humorist of 2019. You also have published a book of humorous essays called toxic femininity in the workplace, and you have a lot of projects coming up as well that you were writing for. But also, I love talking about any kind of toxicness in the workplace. And I did some research on you. Can you give us a brief background of kind of like what you did,

how you came to comedy, that spiel for me? Yeah. So I used to work in the tech industry. I had this like really boring job where I had just like crunch numbers all day. And I started doing stand-up comedy because one of my bosses quit and then I like didn't have a new team for like a month so I didn't have any work to do so I just was like writing jokes and I started going to open mics in San Francisco and then from there thing kind of like spiral out of control and I had like quit my tech job within like a year because I was so burnt out and then yeah it was like how old were you when you got burned out like 25 but the year that I did stand-up and worked in tech I like at some point my job kind of came back like I got a new boss and I was like just like I just had these like insane hours

because I was leaving work really early, so I was getting to work really early. And then I just kind of decided I would crash my parents' house in New York for a few months, and then I stayed for like two years and just did comedy. I thought I would go back to work in tech, and I never did. So that's kind of how I got started. I didn't really mean to quit my job to pursue comedy. I just didn't find a new one. And I kind of love that your experience at your job helped get you, like, your first really break

in terms of comedy writing. Can you explain, like, why you wanted to write about toxic femininity and the workplace and, like, that kind of satirical topic? Yeah, totally. So I worked on, like, several teams of all men, and they were just, like, so easy to make fun of. Like, I thought... They truly men are just, like, ridiculous.

And if you, like, if you put them in a room where it's all them and, like, just one woman, they kind of act like you're not there. And, like, they kind of, like, it's almost, like, absurd. I felt like I was like, Jane. good all, like, observing them in their, like, natural habitat. Like, they're so fucking weird. Like, they're just, like, truly insane. But, um, I wrote this piece for the New Yorker that was, like, called an example of toxic femininity that was about, like, what would happen in a hypothetically, like, all female workplace. And it was, like, the joke was that, like,

the company would still go under because everyone was, like, listening to each other and stuff. And that, like, you're, like, ruining things. Sorry, I was just reading on your bio that it's based on men you work with who were, by and large, annoying. And, yeah. I want to read one of the examples. You wrote, Jessica begins speaking and no one speaks over her. She didn't actually have an ending to her presentation prepared because she was expected to be interrupted. She is mortified.

It's fucking amazing. Yeah, I mean, that kind of thing, like, happened to me all the time. I would just, like, so assume that I wasn't going to talk in meetings that I would, like, completely zone out. And then someone would be like, what do you think, Jimmy? Like, one guy, like, trying to fucking be progressive. And I was like, shut up. You know what I mean?

Like, do this all the time. You're not going to listen. and if you do, you're just going to repeat it to your boss and take credit for it. So shut the fuck up. Yeah. So I was like, I'd rather, like, be on Twitter. Like, please leave me alone. It's funny because I was in sales where, like, at the end of the day, it's whoever is making more money is doing better.

And, like, it does, the other men don't affect me as much. And I was doing really well. And then the men started to talk about me being like, oh, she's only doing well because she, like, giggles and flirts with everyone. And I'm like, okay. cool who gives a fuck yeah who cares they're jealous or bad at that you know what I mean they're like oh well Hannah Hannah you know is a girl so it makes it easier for her I'm like okay nothing has ever been easier for women like and then I went to marketing where it was

that was when I started realizing that like it was hard for me to get my point across where like you can tell sometimes men are just like before you start talking they're like I'm not going to listen to what this is absolutely yeah so you're like why am I even fucking talking. What are some other favorite kind of examples of toxic femininity that you remember you talked about? I guess like at work, I had a coworker who like threw a chair. Well, he was like so insane. Like he actually like the book truly like people are always like wow, all of your co-workers must have been so bad. And the truth is that like most of them are kind of like mildly annoying. And then like two were like so terrible and almost everything is based on those two. But like this guy like

one of the things he used to do is he would like yell like pussy. like he would like call people a pussy like at work one time like I came into work like because I had a doctor's appointment he was like a child and he was like what doctor were you at like the gynecologist and then he like burst out laughing and I was like yeah like I go to the gynecologist like it's not a bear I don't know it was so insane like but those are the kind of men that are scared of tampons exactly totally scared of tampons but then he he eventually like after one of my bosses left the new boss came in and and like my old boss was also really bad and wanted to kind of like protect him and then my new boss came in and actually this story ends psychotically but my new boss

opened up an HR investigation into this guy Alex right away because he was like so bad and kind of everyone told him about it right away I had to talk with HR and the HR guy was like okay what are some like I was like he uses inappropriate language and the guy was like what are some examples of like inappropriate things he says and I was like I like didn't want to say it out loud so I kept being like, put, he says like, put. And then the HR guy was like, do you want to write it down? I was like, no, that's so much work. Do you want to draw a photo of it? Yeah, I'll show you mine and, yeah, I'll point to it. But this is the most psychotic thing, though, is that after he got fired, my boss wanted me to go through his laptop to see if he had, like,

data that we needed stored on it. Oh, no. And I opened it up, and the web browser is open to, like 25 tabs that are all Gilmore Girls fan fiction. What? I know. Oh, my God. That is so strange. My dad always talks about he was in the time of sales when like everyone first got a company laptop.

And he said like so many people were fired that first year just because they couldn't not go on porn on that laptop. And like the men like couldn't fathom that like they can't look at porn on this company laptop and people are just dropping like flies that's so funny how do you feel transitioning from like a tech space which is dominated by men to then the stand-up space that's dominated by men yeah stand-ups are like so creepy like in a totally different way totally yeah yeah they're less like it's less like condescending and they're more likely to like follow you to the subway I don't know, like, do you find, like, the men in stand-up are, like, worse than the men you worked at

in sales and marketing? In stand-up, it's at least more apparent that, like, we're female comics, you're male comics. There's some, in the entertainment industry, women are really making a come-up because in the past, like, they weren't allowed to be funny. And the work environment, I feel like people don't acknowledge it as much. Like, yeah, you're equal to us, but then they have tons of microaggressions. exactly yeah and stand-up it's like more overt kind of like you'll just like a dude will just like say something like blatantly misogynistic and like it's funny yeah like they're like well female

comics you know i mean the recent thing is just how men are like well yeah it's like a great time to be a woman right now yeah i hate are like and they act like anything they don't get is purely because they're not a woman or like someone of diversity and it's like maybe i don't i don't like now you know what it's been like forever for like you there only be one female spot on the lineup or like one spot for someone of diversity in the lineup and god forbid you're not getting everything now because now you actually have to make you have to work hard for it yeah exactly and like actually be good and like say something interesting I love that now I turned it into my own rant like I feel like it's so important to talk about and guys like I'm like also there are so many white

men writing on TV shows like there are still rooms of all white male writers it's not like it's like it's like it's like it's like a white guy and like people truly act like it is no a hundred percent a hundred percent just because people aren't only looking for the next like white male star they think they're like they don't have a chance and it's like imagine being a woman going to an industry that's only white men do you think that your past working in a male dominant industry has helped you at all in terms of like not being intimidated or feeling like you have a purpose. Yeah, I don't feel intimidated and I, and that has been helpful or I guess I feel less

intimidated, but it also I feel like I'm desensitized a little bit. There's like an old school kind of male comic who like generally dismisses social media as like a thing that like women are successful and like that doesn't matter. And I'm like, I truly do think women are better at social media because I think you have to like be smart and strategic and you can like go out and build your own audience instead of like waiting for someone to give you opportunities based on like, because Like, men are getting opportunities because the people booking it are men, you know, whereas, like, social media, it's like, yeah, if you're funny and you make good content, you can, like, find your own audience there. Ooh, I'm so happy I have you on, because I feel like you're really on the same page with this.

Don't you feel like overall memes are kind of from a female perspective, and, but, like, it doesn't have a female face on it, so it's kind of blown up. Like, my biggest pet peeve is when, like, men will tweet things from a female voice because they know that people will like it, like, oh, I'm going to drink wine tonight. and possibly cut my bangs. Like, I know men who tweet that shit. And I'm like, shut the fuck up and be authentic to yourself. Don't try to, like, almost appropriate female culture because it does well online. I also think, like, there are men who think of, like, selfies as, like, a thing that

women get, it's like, there's humor in the way you take photos and stuff. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's more than just, like, oh, look at my body. It's like, it's like a funny caption. It's the same as a tweet, you know? And I think that there are men who are like, well, I can't do that. because, like, people don't want to look at me, like, sure, listen. I'm like, no, of course they don't.

But, like, that doesn't mean, like, that doesn't mean that it's not, like, a creative endeavor. I also think that in the past, comedy clubs are very intimidating. Like, a bunch of girls don't just go to a comedy club. Like, I feel like it's dark and, like, yeah, I don't know if it's been, like, a safe feeling space for women in the past, but the Internet is full of women who are sharing to their friends.

So, like, we've kind of taken over, I feel like, a huge part. of like Twitter and meme culture and then it now it's finally starting to trickle down to stand-up like I've had clubs be like we've never like the audience I bring in they're like we love this audience it's like girls who spend money who are doing well and like came to laugh and not like creep on people do you feel like guys are like weird like when you like go to clubs like male stand-ups will be like bitter that they don't have the same kind of following yes but it's like that comes down to the whole like new york state perspective of like who's a real stand-up right i hate that it doesn't mean anything and i when people i've had multiple men sit me down and be like just so you know like yeah you

like sold out this and you like got past there but like real stand-ups like how many basements have you bombed in how many this have you whatever and i'm like honestly call me a clown don't call me a stand-up because i'm like playing by my own rules and i because if i went by your rules and your ladder, then I would then be like knock down. That's how you get hold back by the man's. Exactly. Also, stand-up, it's so dumb. It's like the only art form where it's like, if you want to be good at it, you have to prove to everyone how bad you were at it for real. Oh my God, I know. I was probably similar to you where like I was working at Betches where I was writing like 80 tweets or memes a week and I called it like Betches boot camp. Like I was just

and memes and tweets are a form of joke writing. So I was doing that. for like two, three years before I went on stage, but by the time I went on stage, I had so many jokes, and I was loved performing, so it wasn't like, it was really raw, like, my first time I've ever said a joke. Yeah, and some people just have a natural stage presence and, like, are funny right away, and it's like, I think the only people who think you have to be terrible at first in order to somebody be good are people who are still not good, you know, it's like, people are like, I'm still in this learning phase where, like, I'm going to, yeah. You're so funny because what people will do, like, I will correct.

rush and they'll be like, but have you? How many times have you bombed? I know. It doesn't make any sense. It's like, it's like, should I have bombed? Yeah. But also like, as women, we deal with so much, like, society wanting us to feel bad about ourselves, wanting us to be scared, wanting us to be insecure. So it's like, I feel like the more you crush, the better. Even if you lie to yourself after and said, you know what? At least I'm happy I nailed that one joke I was working on. Like, we're different. than men in a lot of ways and I think that we have to be positive and confident and build each other up instead of putting yourself in situations to like make yourself feel insecure I know that's the thing I think it's because men don't have enough natural insecurity to mom to like get like raw down to earth but women are

already down to earth you know I'm gonna try to feel what it's like to not have everyone believe in me for a second yeah yeah and that's what I need to like be yeah no it's like I feel like I just like have developed a thick skin from like existing in the world and did not I mean I've bombed many times but like I don't think I needed like a year of straight bombing to like have a thick skin and be able to handle like a new joke going badly or something yeah but turning back to you I want to know what is your biggest like insecurity right now physically or emotionally yeah my biggest insecurity I'm just like very concerned about my ability to like write the kind of stuff that will be like kind of mass consumed, I guess, or to sort of grow the way that I write.

Like, I think I, like, have, I've, like, really focused on the few things that I do. Like, I write satire pieces and I, like, write tweets and then stand-up. It feels almost like just like a collection of tweets, but, like, eventually, like, those things are all just so short form and I'm, like, insecure that I'll be able to, like, add, like, themes to my writing or something or, like, create some kind of, like, longer narrative. Like, I just, like, I feel like I, at every stage in my career, I have an insecurity that I won't be able to take it to the next step and that feels like the next step and I'm like unsure about how to get there like I want to like write movies someday or like write a full TV show or like write a

novel and I'm just like that kind of stuff I haven't done before and so I'm like worried that I won't be able to to do it basically I feel like if you didn't have that anxiety that would mean you're content and you're like never going to do that stuff but the fact that like after a certain point when you feel really comfortable you then are thinking about okay how do I reach that next step and it's going to be hard is you just like being a type a like person that's going to accomplish a lot yeah that's very true we're confident that i was able to write a novel that would be an insane thing to be confident about yeah or like if you weren't anxious about if you can go the next step it means that like you don't give a fuck and you're just going to be like tweeting for the

rest of your life which could be fun but it's not what you want yeah i'm also i have a lot of insecurity about aging and i know and i feel weird talking about it because i know i'm not like old I turned 29. How old are you now? I turn, I'm 29, like pretty newly 29. When did you turn 29? Like April. So I guess actually not even that newly. I turned it in August, but we're basically the same. Okay. Yeah, yeah. How are you feeling about being 29? Um, I keep saying I'm 28. Like, it feels like a weird age. Yeah. And, um, 30 seems like so big. Right. That's the thing. I think I have my mind all these things I would accomplish by the time I was 30. And it doesn't, That's, like, intimidating.

Also, something could happen when you're 31 that will just be, like, fucking huge, that, like, you wouldn't think you'd got until you were 50. And it's, like, nowadays, I think timelines are fucked. I mean, my parents got married at, like, 24. Like, it's been, it's been butchered. I'm already past it. But I do think it is, it's a weird age because we feel young, but then societal standards for women in the past 50 years means, like, we are literally,

like, we should start freezing our eggs. That's the thing that really, I think, gets in my head. is the fact that like our fertility has not like I think 30 I think like 30 year old the 35 year old men I know act like like teenagers like and it's just like our bodies haven't really kept pace so I'm like it kind of sucks like I live in a studio apartment I don't feel any need to change that but like it you know like how much longer am I can be able to have kids like that kind of thing it just feels very unfair that like that hasn't adjusted I love that we keep talking shit about men on this but it's true and that men in their 20s while I was in my 20s it just wasn't working out. They don't have to cope with some of like the past traumas to like understand intimacy and understand healthy relationships because they don't even want a healthy relationship yet a lot of them. Yeah, no, they're children. But then I've recently met like a 44 year old and he is like perfectly in the right emotional headspace. And I'm like, this is crazy that I needed like a 44

and he probably feels a similar timeline for having children. You know what I mean? Like I feel like men in their 30s. They're like, I don't need to have kids yet, you know? He literally said to me, he goes, whenever you want, like, if you want him tomorrow or in 10 years, I don't care. It's like, I'm ready when you are. How did that make you feel? Was it, like, stressful or nice? It was nice, but then part of me has deep, deep down, feels sad, like, oh, like, he's already lived so much life without me. But then it's like, I'm happy that other girlfriends fixed him a lot of the way. Oh, I feel that about my boyfriend so much. Like, he told me, this long story about how like he was having trouble with intimacy and this girl just like

had to like break it break it through him and all this stuff and part of me was getting kind of jealous and then part of me was like oh thank god that wasn't me yeah no i get my boyfriend's divorced and i like am really grateful for his ex-wife like he's like very house trained like in a way that other guys i've dated aren't like he's oh i bet and i know i've been that girl for other girls who are now dating the guys i was with like i broke them for them to realize they had to work on shit. So we're all here helping each other. That's the thing.

It's, yeah, it's like about being grateful to the other women who fix them in. And do you feel like because he was divorced that he's learned stuff about relationships that like an average guy in their 20s who hasn't been divorced doesn't know? Totally. And he, like, you know what's so crazy is I think that it's proof that like millennials are so commitment-phobic that like everyone I've said that he's divorced to, like, all my friends have been like, that's a really good sign because it's like, I just kind of. kind of assume everyone's going to get divorced. Like, I don't see why merit has to last forever.

But, like, someone who's willing to get married in the first place is, like, not afraid of commitment. You know what I mean? And, like, most of the guys I've dated, like, the idea that they would ever want to commit to someone is, like, so far-fetched that, like, it's nice to know that he's, like, capable of doing that. Yeah, it's nice to know that at one point he was like, yeah, let's give us a try. Because there's no 100% people like, you know, you know, but no one really fucking knows. That's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing. And, like, I would never, like, I don't think it's weird when people get divorced. I don't think it's like a failure.

I think it's just like, yeah, people change and you can't be positive. Yeah. I once had this woman on Margaret Josephs from Real House so I was in New Jersey on who ended up leaving her family for like the guy who was like developing their house. And I was like, and she ended up marrying him. And I was like, do you regret like marrying the other guy and having kids with that guy? And she was like, no, that was the guy I was meant to have kids with. those guys was meant to marry at that time in my life and maybe there would be fewer divorces

if you didn't go in so like I have to get married at this age and it has to be the number one and they have to be my perfect person totally yeah yeah do you like do you see marriage as like a thing you want I do I'm not one to like talk about it a lot like I just dated a lot of guys in my 20s who I was just like yeah I want a boyfriend I'm dating yeah and I felt like deep down I would know if I saw like marriage material in a guy. I love to spin it on them. Like am I, are you a fucking boyfriend material? Shut the fuck up.

I think I want to have children one day and have like a husband that I'm legally bound to, I guess, to have children. But I also take my happiness above all of it and I would, I'd rather be happy than married, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, I'm the same way. It's like you would have to feel like it was enhancing my life at that moment in time kind of. exactly and I haven't even like thought about babies so that's for when we're 35 and we do another check-in on burning and how that's what makes me mad about aging is I don't want to think about these things yet so I like resent that there are people like my parents from college are having kids like I'm like mad at them but then some friends have kids and I'm just like oh thank God I'm not doing

that now but I feel like I'll wake up one morning and be like I know and I think with the right guy I'll be like I want to procreate with you may I ask your boyfriend, what industry he's in? He is a musician. He works in television. He, like, writes the score for TV shows. He's a creative man. He's a creative man. But it's nice because I've dated so many comedians. And, like, while I like that they're creative, there's also this underlying competition and, like, they, you know, like, are insecure and I have to, like, deal with all their insecurities. And I don't feel like I could, like, tell them if something is going well for me. So it's nice. He's creative in, like, a completely different field.

So I also told myself, I'm never going to date a comic again. But, somehow I'm dating a comic right now but because he's 44 he's at like such a different place in his career where I feel like there's no comparing and also he's like kind of impressed by all the like media stuff that I'm doing because he didn't have that on the rise and he feels like I can help him a little and like so I don't know if I could date a comic who was like in a similar place in his career than I am yeah that's amazing that he's like so impressed by it though because it is so impressive and I feel like people who aren't who don't do it like sometimes don't recognize like how much work goes into it but I also with you as a writer as someone who loves to write do you have any

advice for people out there who love writing in terms of kind of how you get inspired by stuff or what you do when you're in you know a non-creative mental place because it's not like oh just answer these emails it's like come up with something that's great I think like for my satire I keep like a running list of ideas as I have them so like then and I don't have time to like work on most of them right away but like basically like what'll happen is like I'll kind of like be maybe reading something and then I'll think of some funny like oh what if this were like flipped on its head and you did it like you reverse like instead of it being about like men it's about cats or something like that kind of thing like just like some weird thought about it and then I read this and once I have like

the premise I don't have to be feeling that creative to actually just like force the thing out But I don't know. I also will keep, like, a running list of tweets. And sometimes I get tweets from, like, a thing that I've sort of said in conversation or, like, what's about to say? And I don't want to tweet it out for, like, another month because I don't want my friends to be like, why are you using our conversation for tweets? Like, that kind of thing. So, like, I don't know. Yeah. And then you actually, you don't get that feeling of ever being, like, empty. Because even if you don't really love the idea, you know there's potential in it. Yeah, exactly. That you can, like, oh, yeah, when you're writing stand-up, how do your tweets affect your stand-up material? Or how do you, take it from, this sounds good on paper, but how can audience laugh? Yeah, well, when I was going to open mics, I would just, like, truly, like, whatever I tweeted that day, just, like, try it on stage. And if it got, like, as much as, like, a little shuffle, I would, like, keep working at it. But I would throw out, like, most tweets don't work a stand-up joke, but then every once in while one does. So I would just kind of, like, throw out, like, most of them. But I did think of Twitter as, like, the most useful tool for stand-up and, like, figuring out whether or not

something was funny. But then along the way, I just became, like, fully obsessed with Twitter, and it's like kind of its own thing. Yeah, tell me about your Twitter journey. I'm actually taking a break from Twitter right now, which has been, here's like a crazy paranoid person, but I deactivate, okay, so I started Twitter probably like two and a half years ago,

like tweeting intensely, and like I just like do so many things to fuck myself over in the algorithm. Like I'll follow and unfollow people. Like I like, we'll tweet way too much and then like delete all my tweets. Like basically I had, and then last week I got in this like fight.

fight with this like Indiana mom about Pete Buttigieg. And it wasn't like a big deal, but I spent 45 minutes just like being angry. And I was like, I can't do this. I mean, I cannot waste my time like this. So I deactivated my Twitter. And then I was like, you know what? I think it's weird to deactivate because people think I like got canceled. So I brought it back and just like not use it. But then my tweets were all doing really badly. And I was like, I think I've just like done so much weird shit. It's like, you know like when you like do too much to your hair and you have to just like growing out kind of like yeah that's like how I feel about Twitter right now I'm like I need to just like take a breather and like let the algorithm reset because I've like fucked myself over I feel like a couple

times I've been scrolling in my feed like definitely during black lives matter I think maybe even some me too stuff and I feel like you are not afraid of like getting into it with people on Twitter oh no I get into it with people yeah and people get into it with me and I like another thing is I'm my new resolution is to not respond to people attacking me and like not read the comments because there was like a while where I was just getting attacked all the time. And I don't even think it was getting attacked more than a lot of people. I was just responding too much. Well, but then the whole don't read the comments.

It's like, then you can't read anything because when you go to read a comment, you don't know if it's going to be someone attacking you or someone being like, hey, love this article. Yes, exactly. And then you hurt your own feelings. Are you naturally a confrontational person? Kind of. I was like a really competitive debater in high school.

So I like it. Like that's the thing is like, I think my friends are like, Just don't respond to these people. And I'm like, but I like it a little. You're like, that's the only thing that makes me feel alive is fighting with random people. Yeah, I don't know. Do you feel like, is Twitter, like, okay, for your mental health, or does it like? It's funny because Instagram is, like, my main platform.

So I really use Twitter to just write the tweets so that I can then screenshot the good ones to put it on my Instagram. Makes sense. You'll see, like, three tweets in a row of me just, like, rewording something to see what does better. Like, I don't put any, like, egos. go involved in my Twitter. But then when Summer House airs, I am naughty and I will watch the episode and then watch what everyone's live tweeting. And I will hurt my own feelings so easily

because one person will be like, Hannah is so right. And Hannah's the coolest. The next person will be like, is anyone else so annoyed by Hannah's face? Like everything she said is fucking annoying. And then you just keep looking to be like, okay, well, I need another good tweet about me. And like, also, who tweets about reality TV? like and that's the person people yeah yeah no I think like people truly and something I've realized as I've like gotten more into Twitter people don't realize it's like a real person on the end of that thing they don't treat me like I'm like an entity or else maybe they like want to hurt my feelings but like when people just comment like not funny on my joke I'm like you know I'm like a person reading this like you

would just say nothing like also you're not saying it for people to like rate you this isn't like a yelp review on a tweet like that's not the point of it but how is your mental health right now. We're in the quarantine, you're a writer, so at least that's nice, but like, do you deal with anxiety, depression, PTSD, OCD? What's going on with you? I would say, like, I feel pretty, like, controlled by my anxiety. Like, that's definitely, like, the biggest thing. Like, it's, like, has really taken over. I'm, like, also, like, I get really depressed. I was on an antidepressant for a while, but it was making me super anxious. I was on Well, Buter, and so I went off that. And then now I'm on Busepar. I just started it. Have you heard of it?

No. Okay. No one I know has heard. of it or taking it, which kind of alarms me. But then my therapist was like, I was like, why don't I take, like, Zoloft? Like, everyone I know is on Zoloft. And she was like, is it working for them? And I was like, no, not really. I'm like, still depressed. So, like, I'm on, like, 20 milligrams of, it's called Paxil.

And, like, I don't know anyone else who's on it, but I don't, like, talk about it that much, but it's something that, like, in college I was on. And then I got off it. And then when I was feeling really anxious again, I just, like, went back on it. But I guess I never even tried another. one because I was like not having any like really bad reaction to it that's the thing if it doesn't do anything bad like yeah yeah do you know if it's do anything no but at least I'm not like worse and if there's I do believe in placebo effects and I do believe that like if you're taking that little

pill in the morning makes you feel like a little more stable that you won't have a mental breakdown that day then like that's whatever helps you yeah exactly I think that that's what's going to happen with the views far yesterday i i started it two nights ago and i the first night i felt kind of almost like a high which i did not like like it wasn't a good high and i'm like sober and like it was just i didn't like it at all but then like i just do feel like slightly less anxious like i slept a little bit better so like i don't know i'm hoping that and it takes time yeah how long have you been sober i've been sober for like almost a year and a half i'm so i'm like completely sober from alcohol and then i kind of do want to just be like generally sober but i i never like had a problem with

weed. I just never liked it that much. So I don't, like, I don't smoke weed, but I haven't, like, tracked how long it's been or anything. Yeah. And I don't really do any other drugs. I've, like, taken clonopin and stuff, but, um, so you basically are, like, dealing with your own sober thoughts all the time. Yeah. And that's really, like, kind of a lot, especially in quarantine. It's like, on the one hand, it's been nice because I haven't, there's been no pressure to, like, go out, which is good for sobriety. But on the other hand, it's like, yeah, I just have my own thoughts, like, every hour of the day and there's not that much to distract me except the internet. And it's just, like, so on the internet it can be the ultimate trigger but sometimes i did feel like when i when i was anxious

drinking is literally made me more anxious the next day so it's like i'd rather learn to cope with my own sober thoughts than like just like not be sober and postpone the sober thoughts because like they're not going anywhere yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah is your partner sober he's not but he never drinks around me, which is really nice. That is nice. Yeah. I had thought I wanted to date someone like 100% sober, but it has not been like an issue. I think it would have been an issue if I were like earlier into sobriety. Yeah, the guy I'm actually seeing right now is sober, but like since he was like 19.

And I, I'm not a big drinker and I find like, you really have to find someone who's partying is compatible with your partying. People don't talk about that enough. Yeah. Like your idea of like a good downtime needs to be compatible. because, like, you want to enjoy your downtime with the person you love. Yes. Is it, is your comfortable with your boyfriend?

I think it is because I love just, like, petting my cat and watching TV. Like, I'm so fucking boring. And people, like, after comedy shows, will, like, try to give me cocaine and, like, be like, let's party. And I'm like, I know I seem, like, the fun girl, but, like, it's exhausting to be fun. It's exhausting. And those things, you don't have to be fun. Like, you know what I mean? Like, doing comedy is fun.

Like, that's fun. Yeah. And also, I am not that fun when I'm drunk. I get sleepy. I, like, will fall. I'll spill everyone's drink. Like, I'm actually not very fun when I'm drunk. Yeah. But I feel like I disappoint people, but like I just, I'm Italian. I'm good at eating. Yeah, no, I always feel like I'm like kind of more like I disappoint people with my like sober personality. But then I'm like, when I was drinking, I would just like get really drunk and wander off. So I don't think I was that fun then either. I know. I would just like put my phone away

because I know I would break it and then eventually I had Irish exit. Yeah, I love it. Irish exit, yeah. Fun question for you. If you went to a psychic today, what would you want to know about your future? I mean, this isn't even about me, but I would want to know when quarantine's going to be over, like, being in Los Angeles in the United States in general. Like, that would be my number one question. I would want to know if I, like, continue being a writer because, like, I think one big thing I've gone out of the pandemic is like, I used to think, I mean, I used to not do it at all. And then once I started, I was like, this is the only thing I'm ever going to want to do. And now I'm like, maybe this is just a phase in my life and I'll do something else later.

so that's what I'd want to know and yeah I guess that those are kind of my two I mean I'm curious if I'm gonna like stay with my boyfriend long term but I feel like it's too early for me to ask like even the idea of me asking a psychic that gives me anxiety which is like how anxious I am but like I do not want psychics to tell me anything with my love life because I just it freaks me the fuck out anything about my future which yeah I guess I didn't think about it I thought that was me being calm and being like I have my own path but just me being too anxious to be able to handle any kind of hint about the future. But it's like you know I had to deal with your anxiety.

You know what I mean? It's like, yeah. I'm the guy person that if someone said to me, like, you're not meant to work out with your boyfriend. I like wouldn't be able to get it out of my head. And I wouldn't be able to be like my own person and be like, fuck you. I'd be like, oh my God.

I don't do it. Imagine me going to my boyfriend be like a stranger said we're now going to be together. So I don't know what to, I don't know where do we go from here. Yeah. No, it would really stress me out. What would you want to know from a psychic?

I'm really. against being goal-oriented right now in my life. Even you being like, will I be right or whatever? I feel like you're going to be so many things. Yeah. Yeah, like you're going to have so many projects that you think of like what you're doing now. You couldn't have even predicted it two years ago. Yeah.

And I kind of know that like there's nothing I'd rather get involved with then comedy and entertainment. I guess I'd want to know like if I will have like a stable family structure because that's what I like always thought I'd have when I was young. And then now because my career's gotten so weird and crazy. actually got worried once I got a little bit of this like reality TV fame that like I'm not going to be able to like date normally like I can't just like meet a normal guy yeah or like a normal guy would like know stuff about me from the show and then like if you're filming that means

normal guys have to possibly film with you like it just fucks up a lot of like natural dating yeah that makes not a sense do you feel does your boyfriend come on the show with you now not yet okay yeah but I think he will yeah but it's still not I it's never ideal it's never like a good thing for the relationship right and I just like I don't like that someone can like Google me and find my tweets before they've met me like it's just like on the other hand like it is kind of nice to be like well someone's freaked out by this then it's I'm glad they know now you know yeah do you have any um strategy for your tweeting because you've been tweeting for a long time because I have those things where I'm like I'm never going to be able to do a good tweet again

and then the next day something comes to me and I'm like oh yeah I usually do just like wait for them to come to me I'm like trying to work now on like algorithmic strategies and just like not tweeting too much so that stuff will like be more successful because I know it's really bad if you just tweet like 10 times in a row and delete them all like I know that those tweets and don't get like other people but I do that all the time anyway all I do is I don't tweet for like a week and then like one night at 3 a.m. I'll tweet like 15 things. And then I'm gone for a week. So that's my strategy. I want to wrap this up with a final game called The Seven Deadly Sins. Are you ready, Jenny? Yes.

Seven Deadly Sins. What are you greedy about? Tweets. I want so funny. I speak them all. I'm extremely greedy. Oh, I also chew like three packs of gum a day. But that's just like, like, like a gross anxious. Wait, please explain why. I just like, I think I have an oral fixation that I never like dealt with and I just like always need gum and I chew like three pieces at a time. I chew it like under a mask. It's like gross. I'm like, gross. I'm like, concerned. I've had it grape stuck in my tooth the whole time. I can't even, I can't see. It's too pixelated. Who are you envious of? I'm envious of people who seem to have like,

who seem calm. Like anyone who's not stressed out. I don't have an anxiety, just envious up. Do you feel like most people do have anxiety, or do you feel like you have it worse than a lot of people? I don't think I have it worse. I mean, maybe I have it on the worst end, but I feel like almost all my friends have really bad anxiety. So that's the nice thing is I'm not widely envious.

Like, it's like every once in a while I meet someone who doesn't have anxiety, and then I'm like, that's amazing. This podcast, I literally, like, take people that I think have, like, their shit together and then just get them to tell me. that they're anxious messes and then it just makes me feel better about myself no everyone's an anxious mess for sure and people just cope with it differently or show it differently yeah yeah no I try and when I meet someone who I don't think is anxious I really try to like dig in and figure them like I do whatever like I'm like so your parents really loved you does that ever make you feel like you um

have pressure to be loved all the time yeah they lied to you do you think if they're covering something up yeah you could you could find something no I I search, yeah. I mean, I even growing up, I would think, like, there's no way that someone because of success is, like, that much happier than everyone around them. And it's really true that, like, the grass is not greener and your fame and your money does not equate to, like, mindfulness and, like, calmness in your heart. No, not at all.

Yeah. And some people are not meant to have, like, these crazy, obviously, like, entertainment successes. some people actually like are just so in alignment with like whatever their other job is that like we may be like oh you know they're not chasing their dreams no some people are like meant to be even if it's just a housewife or like meant to be a landscaper and they're fucking amazing at it and it fulfills them so much and like I'm envious of that yeah totally yeah what are you gluttonous about besides gum gluttonous about oh yeah that was probably a good one for good um I take like four showers a day oh I love that do you watch that do you watch

your hair? No, I only wash my hair like once a week, maybe like twice a week. I just like, anytime I need like a mental break, I like get in the shower. It's not good for like the environment. Like I feel bad about it. But not that I feel worse for myself. Yeah. I'm like my emotional needs like over surpassing environment right now. Yeah, I have a tendency like whatever happens during the day. Like even if I party and I get home at 2 a.m. like I need to shower. Yeah. Because I like hate going to bed feeling like sticky or sweaty and I get my friends make fun of me so much but yeah yeah I shower at the end of the night sorry yeah when was the last time you experienced extreme wrath or anger um I was really angry at this like mom from Indiana who was like attacking on my

tweets like a week and a half ago maybe like two weeks ago at this point which is why I initially deactivated she just like she just like commented like idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot idiot on like eight tweets in a row and I was just like, I hate you. And I should have just blocked her. What was your comeback to that? I went through her Twitter. I'm so embarrassed about this. That's why I had to deactivate.

I was like, who am I becoming? But she had some really problematic tweets that were like so much. Like she had a tweet that was like, Mike Pence gave Indiana AIDS. And I was like, I can tweet that. Like, she had another one that was like, let me get this straight. Just because I'm white, that means that I love slavery? Is that what everyone is saying?

And I was like, one saying that like chill the fuck out so then did you call an idiot no i just like kind of like felt satisfied no like i just spent a lot of time like being satisfied in my own head knowing that she was so crazy but i was like yeah it was like just really insane like i just went down like a deep rabbit hole of her twitter i will do that where if someone says i'm something really fucked up i'm like okay who is this person and then i see like their other thoughts like they complained about me on a reality show but then they also complained about like the walmart employee like the subway that morning. They complain about everything and then I feel less like attacked. Do you ever like comment on

people saying mean things about the reality show or you on the show? I rarely do but every now and then like I try to make a joke out of something like someone's like Hannah needs to brush her hair and I'll be like like I know like some like people will say stuff like just about me being greasy or whatever and I'll be like yeah I'm Italian like I have greasy skin. Or someone was like Hannah's had Botox and it's really how bad the Botox or something like that and then I'll just like post a photo of me like moving my eyebrow you can't like logically explain yourself when people are like coming at your character that's really true yeah but those are the ones that hurt the most yeah yeah when was the last time you were like a complete lazy piece piece of shit sloth oh man like all the time I went to

the beach like two days ago like it was like a Wednesday well my sister was staying with me so we had plans to go to the beach but I like had all this work I had to do and did none of it and then just like sat at the beach for hours and then came home and we like ordered takeout like all the time i'm like i've been so lazy in quarantine and then like i truly like i take a nap every day and i'm like cranky if i don't i took i took yesterday i woke up at 10 to do a podcast and then after the podcast i was still in bed and decided to close my eyes so i took a nap at basically 11 a.m and then i took a nap at like 8 p.m which like that's not smart but i just like i just like i just love sleep too and I realized we joke about depression naps it's actually like an anxiety nap for me

where I'm just like I don't really feel like being alive during these next three hours me too so I'm just gonna not yeah it's like the safest way to check out of your life yeah yeah yeah when was the last time you let your pride get in the way of something almost certainly something on Twitter like Twitter is like so bad for my mental health um is it funny that like you have a huge following you have like over 75,000 followers has it become worse for your mental health the more popular you've gotten yes and I also feel like I've become less popular than more popular I've gotten like I can just tell how many people have muted me and like which is kind of a relief like when I realize someone who like if I have like a big

follower and I realize they're muted me I'm like this is kind of nice that they're not seeing all this dumb shit that I'm saying yeah it's gotten more so yeah I'm trying to think if I have like an example when Pride got in the way. Yeah, I mean, I think I had like pitched a project a little while ago and it just like, it's not even that it's not going to go through, but I was like, it's been really slowed down by me having like this like very exact vision for it. And I now, and I came around to sort of like changing the details to like accommodate what the people wanted, but it would have just gone so much faster if I had like been willing to, like I just sometimes won't take edits from the start. Like I'll just like be resilient. And that's like a really bad.

have it in a writer for sure. I should like accept edits. Yeah, and I think because you're also performer, like, you know that like you can write something and make it work. I'm the same way, especially with comedy, where I'm like, if I thought it was funny, why don't you think it's funny? If I think it's funny, it's funny. And that you have to see that like there are other other ways for it to be funny. And also there's other powers at B who have like requirements. But when you with like a due date for something and you're like how do you get fire under your ass to finish something creatively because if it's like oh i have to answer these emails that's easy but there's always that tension of like i have to do this and what if i don't think of like what i need to think of

that's a huge anxiety for me like a big insecurity but i'll just like stop being creative i think like fortunately a lot of this stuff that i have that like has specific due dates it's like there's always kind of weirdly administrative stuff that can be done around it even if it's a creative project. I can always be like, okay, these are like the beats it needs to have. Like, let me think logically about how to like heighten it. Like, so even if I'm not writing jokes, there's like stuff I can do when I'm not feeling funny to like make it so that like the last step is just adding jokes basically. Yeah. So that's one of the things I do if I'm like not in the mood to be funny. But yeah, it is like a huge anxiety that like I don't feel

like I can just like force myself to be funny and then I might someday just like run out of it and be unable to like finish something I'm supposed to finish. Yeah, that F word is key. Like, if you can't force yourself to be funny and that's why I think when people are like oh it's your process for tweeting I'm like if I was like you have to tweet every day I don't think it would be funny it's more like I have to feel inspired even if I'm like just like scrolling Twitter to get inspired I just still have to be in the mood to get inspired like you can't fake inspiration and creativity but I do think that there are ways that you can find like yourself to want to do it like put yourself in that mindset.

Totally. Yeah. And there's, I think you nailed it where it's like, you don't just have to fucking complete a novel, find a little to things you could get off your to-do list that can make you feel like a little bit inspired and a little bit successful even if you just like thought of a title. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Like, it can be just like, if you just like compartmentalize and try to like break you down. That's not, I say that and it sounds like I'm very organized. I'm not. But like, there are days where I had to get to do stuff and I'm not feeling creative. and then I like sort of come up with strategies like okay these are like productive things like can do without actually like being creative yes um final question when was the last time you lusted over someone it would have to be like I mean I have not I guess I lost over my boyfriend's an interesting answer but I like I've not seen any like men IRL in so long like it would have to be like

something I saw on TV and like a really weird lust I don't know I was rewatching garden state and felt like I was lusting over Zach Graff, which is, like, kind of embarrassing. Honestly, both that I was rewatching Garden State and that I was lusting over Zach. I don't know. I just, like, find him attractive in, like, a weird way. No, he totally, and he has, like, pretty blue eyes, I think. Yeah, he's just sort of moody in that movie, and, like, I felt lustful. It's humiliating.

If musicians are your type, then moody is, like, so on board. At one point, there was a dark time in quarantine where I was just watching a ton of Bravo. And, like, Andy Cohen was, like, the only man I saw it a long time. And I was, like, honestly, he could be able to be active to you the further into quarantine. To wrap this up, Ginny, you are so smart, so funny, and also so, like, just self-aware and laid back about your anxieties. But what advice would you give people, that was a oxymoron, but what advice would you give people on how to cope with your hell when you're going through it? Um, I would say like really don't be afraid of medication. And I was afraid of medication for a long time, even though I've been on medication forever. I'm always like really trying to get off it. But I have an discussion with like what's natural and like wanting to find something natural. And I think that that's like a thing to shed kind of. So that would be my advice is like shed any kind of like attachment to the natural because that's not even a real thing. Like even like any food you eat is like processed in some plant somewhere or whatever. Like humans have evolved to the point that like our anxiety. are so modern and weird that like our ancestors didn't even have to deal with and we got our

anxiety from those ancestors and it's yeah I think it's just not being afraid of trying anything that can make you happy in this one life we live yeah don't be like at all embarrassed to take something for it or to even like I mean it doesn't have to be like a medication but just like any sort of like modern day tool you can use like any kind of like app or like supplement or whatever like that can help your anxiety like go for it i love that jenny where can people follow you what projects do you have going on just like put yourself on for a second yeah so i have a podcast coming out from audible it's like an audio uh story of it's a narrative fiction podcast about this evil tech startup um and that'll be out hopefully um in october and then you can find me online at

uh jenie hogan underscore on twitter and instagram that is so exciting Yeah. I love that you're kind of killing on so many platforms. I hope that I can, I feel like we'll do some work together in the future. I hope that I can visit L.A. sometime. I hope we can do stand-up together. I'm just really happy to have you on. Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. This was so fun. And yeah, thanks for coming to hell, you guys. I will talk to you later. Bye. Thank you.