Berner Phone - India Oxenberg: Cult Survivor & Cool Bitch

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

It was my dream to interview India. This is almost real journalism people! I love learning about the psychology of cults and hearing the experiences in documentaries, but it was an honor to sit down with NXIVM cult survivor, India Oxenberg, to hear her story and see her as a whole person, instead of just a name from a wild story. This was one of the most fascinating interviews we've ever had in hell.--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berninginhell/support Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Last night, we were watching the HBO that Gwen Shamblin cult. Oh, yes, on the way down. I've read it. I watched it. And we were watching it. And we're on episode two. And my little sister walks in. And she's like, haven't you guys had enough of this shit?

And then we were like, yes and no. Welcome to Burning Hell. What's up guys? I'm your host, Hannah Burner. And this is the first episode of my L.A. tour. I'm calling it a tour. But it's just me talking shit to people in L.A. And you can do that because you're from New York. Yeah, I know. We'll take it. I'm like, I'm just a New York alien. My first guest is very, very special. Everyone knows on Giggly Squad. I talk about dope documentaries. And I'm obsessed with documentaries. I'm obsessed with cults. I was obsessed with nexium. I watched it with Des. during quarantine, and then we heard seduced came out, which I watched on Delta. I highly recommend. For your in-flight journey. Yes. I highly recommend if you have any flying anxiety.

This will definitely shift your anxiety to other things. And I have India Oxenberg here. She's shared her journey to the world about nexium and her experience. and you've been navigating while also sharing your story but also healing so thank you for coming on india it's my pleasure i'm really excited because i have not been in the zone so to speak of talking about myself i thought oh let me go traveling and like ignore everything that i'm you know have been dealing with for the past couple of years but the funny thing is it really doesn't matter where you go your problems go with you

and it doesn't matter how much you drink or how much you smoke or how much you try to avoid them they're just there and so I have come full circle I'm now back home in L.A. after some journeys that I took with Patrick

who I also talk about your fiance yes but yet he is he's my guy and so we went on a couple adventures and then you know i came back he stayed in italy to study some more and i found myself at a point where i was like i think i really need to get back into therapy yeah because i had been trying to do all of these other things to kind of like navigate around the really uncomfortable stuff that funny enough i have talked about to complete strangers

for now, I guess, the past year plus. But it's still there. And I think that's something that I was so disheartened about these past couple of months while I was traveling because I thought that, like, getting away from my, you know, normal life and routine would help alleviate some of those, you know, pains or nightmares or traumas. But it doesn't.

And so, like, I'm sorry to be the downer of, like, you know, this new post vaccinated travel but if you have any emotional issues like you should pack an extra bag like I did because they're coming along no I remember I was going through some shit and I was like I'm going to Mexico for four days not going to help you're sitting there on the beach and you're like I still feel the pain I know um turns out it's not where you are it's what's in your head because your head is your home yeah wow I love that we went right fucking into it I thought I might have to like pull it out of you a little, but you're like, this is me, this is what I'm doing. No, I'm pretty much an open book, which I actually think is like a blessing and a curse.

And sometimes my partner's like, overshare, overshare. I'm like, I don't really know that filter, but I just, it's just me. And I feel like the best medicine for me has been to be like brutally honest about my experiences because they were so strange to a lot of people. I thought, okay, first of all, everyone's going to think I'm totally nuts. that, you know, this happened to me or I even got involved in something like this. So I might as well just be blunt about why and what and how

in hopes that they can relate. Because I do think more people related than not. And I was really afraid that it would be the opposite, actually, when I decided to speak out. I'm so happy you brought this up because I just want to let you know because we don't know each other. This is the first time, but I feel like we do. We'll tell you a couple past lives.

We'll get into that another time. But I want to let you know that when I talk about cults to people, I do get a lot of responses with like, I can't believe they got involved in that. Or people being like talking about like a mid-level marketing scheme, being like how could people, I'm the first to be like I would join a cult. Like I'm, I know that I'm the person who would easily join a cult. I appreciate that because I want to put that out there.

I honestly think that that means that you understand that you have vulnerabilities. Because I don't think that. anyone joins a cult consciously unless you're like really into satanic rituals and that's your thing, which is fine. This podcast does go there sometimes, yeah. And if that's your, that's not mine. But I think most people who get involved or become like the collateral damage of a cult are goodhearted people who are really just looking for some kind of community or direction or belief system that they feel is missing inside of them. And I think most people feel like there's something missing at some point of their lives. Like it isn't something that maybe we feel 24-7, but the more people I talk to and the more people I've connected to because of this story have told me that they had those same vulnerabilities.

They had those same questions that were kind of plaguing them. Like, what is the point of my life? Like, what do I do? And do I know how to do that for myself? Well, it sounds like people in general will look for external things for happening. when you were saying that it kind of reminded me of like girls who are listening have you ever dated a toxic guy you don't consciously try to date a couple of them or all the whole world's 40 of them so it's like you think he's going to make you happy you see the things you want to see yeah it's like we none of us purposely get involved in self-harming stuff um it's like what is sort of familiar and then also what you want it to be yes and you It's also then hard to get out once you get in the cycles. But I think I relate to you a lot.

One, we're both 30. Yay, 30. We're both, like, summer babies. I'm August. June. You're June. I did our research. We both just got engaged in the last couple, whatever.

And I see so many, like, similarities between us. I did, I was joke with my fiance earlier. I did just get out of a cult called Bravo. And then. That's why we can safely say that the hub is Los Angeles and all others spur from there. Los Angeles is a cult. It's funny because Des was like, okay, don't make that joke. But walking in, I realized immediately, like, it wasn't something that you were going to be like.

No. Like, at first he was like, don't even say the word cult. Did I trigger her? And I'm like, okay, we're going to. He was just like, he knows that sometimes my humor could be, like, very dark. and we don't know you as a person. We just know you from watching you. But I also was like, I want to understand India, the person.

But we also both want to. I really appreciate that, by the way. Because I think sometimes people do really want to be precious about those things, which is a good thing. Like you should be sensitive and you should be aware and just like don't go. Like, for instance, I'll give you an example of a boundary that I've had to put. There are people who went in the interviewing process when I was doing public. publicity for stars for seduced, there were some people who are like, oh, can we see your brand?

And I was like, so you're asking me to unbutton my pants and like literally remove this part of my underwear? It's like you're a tourist attraction. Yeah, I'm like, this isn't like a peep show. And the answer is no. The answer is no. If you want to see that, go watch the show. No, that's not what I'm here for. So like that kind of stuff is something that I just feel like is.

lack of sensitivity and kind of like an objectification really of somebody who they think like oh you're talking about you know your sexual abuse or you're talking about your traumatic experiences so you're a completely open book yes and no like there's still things that are you know private but that's what's also hard is that your trauma has been publicized to the world I know it's like having everyone look in your underwear drawer it's not always fun yeah and I mean, I dealt with it in a much smaller scale with, like, reality TV, people watch, like, the story edited drama that they want you to see, and then everyone's invested in it. And you still feel so, like, I don't want to see violated, but it's like people are in on your shit where you are times a million in terms of like a deep documentary of something you went through. but I'm so proud of you that you turned it into this like because you wanted to have a purpose and it's kind of crazy but like you've affected my life you've affected I know so many people's lives and I it's because I think I see myself in you well that was my hope in sharing is that it would actually have an impact in that way in a positive way where we would be able to see somebody and not go that could never happen to me but actually they're

opposite and you could go, wow, I really can relate to her. And I was really nervous because I didn't know what the outcome was going to be, but the overall outcome and response that I had regarding seduced and my book was that people really felt a connection and that they were understood that the things that they also felt shame or grief about were getting kind of process through watching the series. And anytime somebody would message me on Instagram, be like, I watch your show. I'm like, wow, thanks, because it's not an easy show to watch. It's uncomfortable. And it brings up a lot of, you know, different emotions in people, whether it's rage or sadness or, you know, relatability like we're talking about. It touches on some

things that society is really uncomfortable about to look at. And I think that that's something that I was both really nervous and also kind of excited to talk about. Because I don't think people really want to go there all the time when it comes to the tougher stuff. Well, even people have been like, yeah, I'd never join a cult. There's so many things that are like, that you similar, like you can get groomed, you can be manipulated

in so many different situations. A cult is just like a socially accepted name of a certain thing. Right. But I also think that you also like crushed the cult. Like you were like amazing in the cult. Like, you were like, that's what my mom says. I hate to say it.

But like, you should be proud that like, regardless that it was a cult, you went in. You were so, you were like so driven. You like really immersed yourself in the community. You even when things were not going well for you, sorry, just cracked my knuckle, you just continued to like push. And then like you rose up the ranks. And you like did a great job. But that's how they get you. Those are the people that they get.

And the funny thing is that my mom actually said this to me the other day. And I was like, thanks, Mom. You guys a small talk, which must be so funny. We have great conversations because really at this point, there is nothing. We have not discussed. The kitchen table in the morning, just like, remember one time? Last night, we were watching the HBO that Gwen Shamblin cult. Oh, yes, on the way down.

I've read it. I watched it. And we were watching it. And we're on episode two. and my little sister walks in, and she's like, haven't you guys had enough of this shit? And then we were like, yes and no. But doesn't it make you feel a little more normal?

Yeah, because I go, oh, there's Keith. Oh, there's Nancy. Oh, shit. There's me. Like, you know, you identify yourself in the situation, but you also have separation from it. Because you can see, wow, I was not the only one who was kind of looking for something

and then got either manipulated or dragged into it in, coerced into something that was entirely different. So yes, I might have crushed the call and I actually really liked looking at it like that because that points back to me and that's kind of how I am in everything that I do. Like I want to do a good job. I was never a great student. I'm dyslexic. So traditional education for me was always a little like, eh.

But you probably have a like creative brain. I find a lot of my dyslexic friends are like really special in other ways that their brain works. Always would ask, so I would get like the assignment and they would say, oh, yeah, you can write an essay and I'd be like, what about the creative option? The one with less grammar. And so I would just submit poems or something. Like, can I just paint my vision? I'm like, Huckleberry Finn, the painting. But no, that's really more how my brain works.

And so I think in a lot of ways I was able to really convince myself that a shitty, shitty situation was good because I didn't really have. the option to walk away. And, you know, I was in nexium for seven years, so from the time I was 19 until around 25. But the last two years specifically were in DOS, which was a much more aggressive and abusive environment. And so I think that's where people go, like, they get a little confused and they think that they're kind of the same. But the actual, you know, overarching cult nexium had a whole bunch of subgroups in them. Yeah. And I, you know, I succeeded at some of them and others I didn't, but it was all rigged. So that really does a lot of damage to your self-esteem and your belief in what you're capable of doing. So that's kind of how a cult can trap you

because they make this insular system where you only think that your success can happen within the group. And now you don't have any real work experience outside of the group. You might not even have finances outside of the group or friends. And you kind of cut off all of your access to the outside world. And so coming out is actually harder than getting sucked in. Wow. Because you have to kind of confront all of these beliefs that they've, you know, implemented into you like you know you're broken you're this you're that you need us nobody's

going to love you all it's an abusive relationship exactly and that's what i really wanted people to be able to see and seduce that this was an extreme example of something that happens to millions of women and men and all anyone on a pretty regular basis and it takes the average woman seven times to leave an abusive relationship now imagine that in an entire group so it's like I really have a lot of, you know, I commend anyone who's left an abusive relationship or a high control group because that's the hardest part. And then you got to go and rebuild your life. Wow. I really feel like your face is normalizing this experience. Because like for people listening, it's like it could really happen to anyone. Like I'm looking at you and I really think if I had

just, I mean, I was in college sports and I, for some reason, did you play tennis. Oh, cool. And I, when I hear sometimes them speak being like, if you, that's, this is weak, this is weak. So I was raised, not saying that college sports is a cult, but it was like, you're weak. If you say I don't want to do it. We could talk about programming. Is it more like, well, yeah, because I was in a group with a power dynamic and you were scared to mess up or you could lose your scholarship.

And it was very like, you couldn't decipher between, is this pain good or is this pain bad? And I would get rewarded when I'd put. push myself way further than was healthy and I physically or emotionally both you're like beyond tired you're just going going going because you feel like it's all going be worth it in the end to be a champion and it's a thin line between abuse and just like being a tennis player and with you it's funny because you went in with dreams of like in as like a chef or like a cookbook and a lot of people went in like to be an actress and then yeah they lose that vision and then it's like i want to be the best at nexium well pretty close and i actually see your situation is really similar to what i've i've learned from a lot of

survivors from the larry nasser and the gymnastics world and a lot of them have come forward to me and shared their stories too wow and um there is that fine line between like what is what is good here like is this is this what it means to be a champion or is this actually really hurting me and when you're young and you look to somebody who's in a position of authority you kind of you just defer to them and and you don't know yourself enough to know like hey this isn't cool unless somebody teaches you and I think most of us just don't have good programming about what's right for us and or our needs and so we just defer to somebody else to tell us and if they're the expert yeah and someone's telling you what you need do and you can't do it and they just go well

that means you're not good enough then you really learn to believe that and you internalize that in yourself and that's something that I struggle with now even is just like what is I know I'm capable in some ways but why do I still feel so deficient in others and I think a lot of people can relate to that but in the cult specifically what they do to kind of erode your self-esteem is that they start to use the things that you love the most against you so if it's your family or if it's your career they'll kind of twist it so that those are actually the things that are crippling you from your

commitment to yourself. But really what they're saying is your commitment to nexium or to the leadership or to the group is weakened because of your dependencies to the things that you love. So they use, that's really manipulative. And then when you use the things you love, you're empty, your shell and they could probably mold you. Exactly. And you don't have anybody else to recalibrate to because now you've kind of cut off of you've cut yourself off of all those things and now you're really dependent on the group so that's a very slippery slope especially if you're somebody who is you know open to that but which i was who you kind of hit on this a little but who was india at 18 oh lost um let me think i had just left a year

of university in Boston and I went with, this is so funny to just like hear myself say it. But I had, I grew up in Los Angeles in Malibu specifically and I went to Malibu High and I had, you know, my first boyfriend who I really loved. And I followed him to Boston and he was really driven as a musician and he went to Berkeley College of Music. And so I was like, well, I should go to Boston. Like literally had no idea what I wanted to do or what I was going to do. I just followed him because I wasn't ready to break up and so I was young and um good good state full of colleges though good one to choose right no it had a lot of options and so I started to study things that I knew which were entertainment management I was like hey I grew up with actors I know how to do this I can manage

the shit out of this and so I studied that but I was still really lost and I I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life and so I left Boston I came back to California and I started to look for work because my mom told me if you're not going to be in college you got to get your ass a job and so i started to work in production which is what i was familiar with and then i kind of started to rekindle this love of like food and cooking and catering with a with one of my high school best friends cool um so i started to do that but i was still feeling really insecure and like i didn't have a lot of the skills that i thought that i needed which is so funny to think that you're Like, I look at my siblings now, we're 18 and 20, and I'm like, wow, there's so much shit that you don't know how to do yet.

Yeah. And I had such, like, so much expectation for myself and such a high amount of pressure to, like, be somewhere that I just was not developmentally. Yeah. So at that point was when a friend of my mom and myself introduced us to what was called ESP. They didn't talk about nexium and all like that. That was not a thing. They talked about executive success program, which sounds so interesting. Yeah.

It sounds formal. It sounds legit. Right. It sounds like smart people are there. Right. So we went to this intro presentation and I was at that crossroads where I was looking for some kind of guidance and structure that was maybe alternative to college because I wasn't sure I was going to go back to college, but I also knew, shit, there's so much stuff that

you don't know how to do. It sounds like you liked untraditional education. Yeah. I did. do still. Yeah. So I got to keep my eyes peeled for that now. But I, there was just something about the intro presentation and the way that they presented the program that really spoke to me. And they were talking about, you know, going into your past fears that were affecting your future and kind of getting rid of those. Yeah, love that shit. Yeah. And, you know, like therapy type

things, but also practical. And they were talking about how scientific it was, which It wasn't like woo-woo. Exactly, which really got me. And in L.A. that's everywhere. Exactly. And I had grown up with a mother who I absolutely love who was a seeker herself and brought me to, you know, a lot of really interesting alternative modalities. And so I was a little jaded. And so the fact that this was scientific really was like, this is going to be my thing.

Which was like the worst decision I could have ever made. But it's so funny when you say nothing that you've said so far. has put up any red flags for me. I know. And you're like, that's a bad decision. I'm like, you're literally investing in yourself. That's the dangerous part is that actually nothing really in the intro presentation had any perceived red flags that we would have. Which is purposeful.

Yes. It's, I was reading some articles. You mentioned love bombing. Yeah. And it's so similar to just a toxic relationship where it starts off very simple. It's like a horror movie. You know the first scene of a horror movie is always like really fun. And they're like, just wait, it's about to get me a shit show.

Beautiful. The girl's running down the street in the suburbs. In her a leisure. And there's a golden retriever. And like then, you know, five minutes later, he shows up. But in my case, it didn't even happen that fast. And so that's the other part that I really actually appreciate about the way that we structured seduced was that it was going to kind of give you that experience of being. indoctrinated and also that this doesn't happen overnight, that it's a slow build.

I just realized that because I remember during it, I'm like, this is good. And then I was like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, this is good. And then by the end I was like, holy shit, this is incredible. But like by the time you got to that place, it wasn't surprising. It was like, yeah, no shit. She's been with this guy for so long. She's seen so much of the community. She's part of it.

Right. And there's actually the worst part is that there's so much. that you don't see until it's too late. And that's very much the horror movie. Because you are in an environment where everyone's telling you that this is great. This is a humanitarian group. We're here to work on ourselves and our growth. And any feedback that we give you is for your benefit.

So that's like a really good way to start to abuse somebody because now they're open to receiving any kind of criticism, any type of command. and whatnot so you don't really know your boundaries anymore if that makes sense it is so similar it's so funny the larry nasser thing because one of the things with coaches their whole thing to me was like you need to trust me yeah and i'm going to push your body and your mind to places that you've never thought because if you want to be a champion that's where you have to go and you're going to be uncomfortable that's good and you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable and don't tell me when you're nervous or scared or I'm going to think you're weak.

Like, that's literally what I was raised on. But what's funny is I feel like the people that, tell me if you agree, the people that fall for this kind of stuff, a lot of the time, they're the most, like, empathetic, kind people that, like, you really are trusting. Like, I hate to use the word gullible because I don't think you're gullible. I personally think that people, I want to, I'm hopeful. I'd say I am a little bit gullible, but I also am someone who really wants to see the good in people and also really likes trusting.

And now when somebody says, trust me, I'm like, ugh, I immediately feel like, which is actually a good thing. So I'm so glad that I have that response. And I remember one time, I was worked, I worked with the FBI for like nine months as a cooperating witness. And I remember one time, I'm telling me, yeah, part sometimes when they bring you pastries, that's nice. But otherwise, it's just like, holy shit, don't fuck up. But I remember one of the prosecutors who is also. um an agent she told me she's like you really need i really need you to work on having people earn your trust and and i and i was like oh what does that mean like that feels so weird and she's like

you i need you to do the opposite of what you would normally do where you kind of want to just trust somebody on blind faith like don't do that anymore and and it seems so simple but it's actually quite hard because if you're somebody who doesn't you know have a lot of street smarts or you know wants to be trusting or was raised in maybe a really good home. Are you a people pleaser? Yes. So when you meet someone, if you're not trusting of them and you're a pretty authentic person, you might offend them.

It'll come off like you're a bitch. Which I am trying to learn to be a little more bitchy and less giving. And that's not my nature. I like to nurture. I like to give. But there's something about maybe a positive part about being bitchy, which is really more self-protective. and that's something that I'm trying to be a little bit stronger at

do you believe that they are bad people in this world yes okay this is shaking me to the core because I over the last couple years for some I don't know if I read an Instagram quote or something but I was like I don't believe that there's bad people I think people have they deal with they have traumas they haven't worked with it's not their fault and then recently in my life to cope with stuff I had to realize like you trusted and it fucked you and for so you think that there's bad people yeah and I had to get to that place too and that's a really scary place to go um I remember like that was part of my like the darkest times that I had was when I really had to come to terms with that there were people who I trusted

who were inherently not good and that actually they wanted to do harm they wanted to to hurt you. And that's something that was so, that screwed me up. Same. Because I was like, no, because I come from that same kind of philosophy of, you know, everybody has their traumas and they're working me out with you. They mean well. They would never deliberately want to take you down or hurt you. But there are people who have different brains like sociopaths who don't have empathy like we do. And that's something I had to come to terms with that some of the people that I had really, you know, grown to trust. and hand it over literally collateral that would damage me didn't give a shit if that was going to hurt me or not.

I feel like they target the highly empathetic people because you are giving them the benefit of the doubt. Yes. And also you kind of conceal their bad behavior because you're kind of a minion of theirs to kind of promote all the good stuff that they don't have to do for themselves. To step back for a second. This is so incredible. This is like my, this is my dream right now. now doing this. I'm so into it. Okay, so at what point were you like, this is a lot to go through? Like, isn't it insane what he did? Like, the amount of levels of manipulation to get people to a point. Like, were you ever just like, how the fuck did, like, how could you have even expected that they would do all this stuff to even make Das a thing about it? Like, it was so intricate and complex. It took me a long time to actually realize that. I had to be out of the

group for some time to actually have some perspective on what had actually happened when you're in it it's hard to see because it's not like a guy cheated on you no this is like a really really thought out and and i i remember actually when i was still very much like indoctrinated into their way of thinking um and the very first interview i'm doing air quotes here with the FBI that i had they showed up at my apartment at 7 a.m. and started talking to me and for three hours we spoke and one of the very last things that they said to me was well can't you see that he set this whole thing up so that he could just have access to you know sex slaves whenever he wanted and and and I was like I actually laughed I laughed like that because it was so out the thought was so outlandish to me because I had

go to a strip club exactly and I was like no way Keith Ew, really? That's like what all of this is about. I couldn't even take that in because it was so crazy to me. And it took me months and months after I had left and, you know, nine months of working with the FBI and working with a deprogrammer and all the other things that I had to do and still continue to do to realize that that was true. That for him it was all about power and control, that it wasn't about sex.

Yeah, no. And that was the part that I... That's not what rape is. No. And that was the part that I couldn't understand because I don't have a brain like that. Yeah. And so when it comes to thinking, are there, you know, are there good people? You can't even put yourself in his shoes.

It's so difficult to do, to even see it if you have never had an experience of it or you haven't been taught what to look for. Those are the red flags that I feel like we really need to teach each other and also teach, you know, if we have children, teach our children to be able to look for that but not to be living in fear. just to identify it yeah to be walking side by side with him for so long and to be so deeply immersed in it then you probably had to question a lot of like what your meaning was and how close you were to evil i know and i did and i and that was like really hard and it's like somebody asked me they're like well didn't you ever think like that maybe what he was doing was wrong when you were in there and i was like no because you weren't allowed to think like that.

And also for in a self-protective way, like I so wanted to see the good in what we were doing because there were times that were so fucking hard where you're literally like starving. And there's no way that you're going to in that moment think, what if this is all bad? Because you'll lose your mind. And you have to kind of like keep this reality

that you have going for yourself as long as possible. And I've come, at first I was really judgmental about that part of myself. because I was like, oh, my God, what a loser, that you had to do that. But then I realized that it was actually self-protective. Yeah. But there have been many times where I've questioned myself. I've questioned my decision-making.

I've questioned my sanity. I've questioned my ability to choose love in my life, my ability to feel appropriately. Like, there's a lot of things that I put into question because of those experiences. Well, it's funny. Also, after trauma, people don't talk a lot about when you're, in the trauma you're not processing it no so like you're compartmentalizing people will say that to me they're like are you still talking about this thing that happened to you four months ago or something i'm like yeah because i didn't realize it happened until like yesterday yeah i know and and i think we feel a lot of

shame about like the the lapse or the lag that it takes and you're just like oh i'm so stupid like why didn't i see that or why didn't i know and and i do this to myself and i'll be like god damn it this took me like 10 days or, you know, three months to realize that that actually really affected me. And it's taken me some time to be able to just communicate or verbalize when those things happen because you get so used to just suppressing it or compartmentalizing it and, you know, making it good or, oh, they didn't mean it. Well, you had a full narrative in your brain that then got completely turned around once you heard Keith on the USB drive telling the truth about the situation.

Yeah. So your whole story, how, what kind of form of PTSD do you have? Is it a lot of like moments, like you're reliving stuff? Because I'll go to sleep at night and like it just comes, like the bad times. And you're like, no, do I need to go on my phone again? I just had all this happen recently so I can easily recall it for you. But so I think in the beginning, I couldn't talk. about it. I couldn't, like, I didn't even have access to the fact that I had been sexually abused. It

just wasn't even there. I was so used to, you know, black is white and white is black that I couldn't even communicate it. Then with some time and separation, I was able to start to talk about things, but I still couldn't criticize anything. And so there was a lot of areas that I wouldn't go because that would mean that I would have to say that something was bad or that it it upset me or that it hurt me and I wasn't ready for that either and so it's been way or so you left like I'm good I got out I'm good yeah and I I felt like all my anger about what had happened was still directed towards my mother and so that that was their strategy was kind of like you know make her the enemy so you you don't have to look at the real monster in the room and so I had to do a lot of healing with my mom

and with my family in order to come back to reality really about who was actually there for me and who actually loved me and what love really was and what it felt like in which I didn't feel for some time like I felt really empty inside and kind of frozen and so it took me a long time to start to actually feel things again and so I had to you were numb yeah completely numb well they took everything you loved away from you yes so you could only possibly like love one thing exactly and you feel a lot of self-hatred in the absence of all of the like feelings that you used to have yeah because nothing really feels the same and you don't feel the same because you're not no and so I think part of my healing journey has been coming to coming back to myself and like really

reminding myself of what I like what are my preferences what are my needs but that requires you to listen to your authentic voice that has been really squashed for a long time. Yeah. And she's coming back and I feel her more and more now and I feel myself now. So when it comes to like what kind of PTSD I have, it's triggers. And I think it's like more of a complex PTSD because it was a long period of time. Yes. And it was also a time where my brain was really malleable.

Yep. And so a lot of the beliefs that they, you know, tried to indoctrinate us with, which some work, some did not, I've had to just undo and just question a lot of things. So it's a process and it's still happening. And I'm like, just found a really great therapist once again because I've, yeah, right? It's hard to find. And I think that that's something that I have gotten to the point in my own process that I was like, wow, I really need some help with understanding these triggers that kind of derail me sometimes and I don't want to be, you know, living my life and then all of a sudden for a week I can't stop crying. That's where I'm at sometimes. But that is part of it

and that is more like the authentic voice coming out and grieving and processing things. The whole feeling your feelings thing. So uncomfortable and it's so annoying. And that's why you can avoid therapy because you're like, I can go into interview and say what happened to me. But then when you actually have to feel the real shit that's underneath, And you were also taught while at the cult that feeling feelings is not okay. Right. And so I think for me, I'm, I deal with triggers that are more circumstantial or that are, you know, they're a series of things. And I'm starting to be able to identify them all.

So like when they happen, I'm like, oh, okay, that's what that is. But sometimes I'm a little late to the party. And like, I'll be really fucked up for, you know, a couple hours. And I'm like, well, what happened? And then I have to go and retrace my steps and figure it out. So it's, I'm learning. What is the term deprogramming mean? So deep programming is something that I've come to learn through, you know, all my cult research on myself and with other people.

When you're in a cult or a high control group or an abusive relationship, it could be one-on-one. It doesn't have, or in your family, it does not have to be a cult specifically. you are indoctrinated to believe certain things about yourself and about the world. And that everyone's programmed with different things. They're either positive programming or negative programming. What I think happens in a cult specifically is that you're unconscious to what you're being indoctrinated into, and that's the coercive part. You think that you're, you know, getting one teaching, but you're really getting the teaching

to be subservient when that's not something that serves. you. So a deprogrammer is someone who will go in and help you question the programming that was done to you. They're not necessarily therapists or credentialed. Some of them are actually survivors of cults. So they've had experiences themselves that are similar to mine or whomever they're working with. And for me, that was like the first kind of introduction into kind of talking about what had happened without the expectation of having to resolve it all. And so that's kind of what a deep program does. They help you re-engage your ability to think critically and not in the closed loops that

cults kind of require you to think in. Wow, this is so fascinating. And you've also, you are engaged. I'm going to say this not eloquently. How the fuck did you find love again? accidentally i guess also the cute way it's like when you're not looking for it to find you i was like no guys no boyfriends no love no bullshit i didn't want any of it really i was not looking at all i was actually so focused on working because my whole life was falling apart around me and i

was working in the the east village as a manager of a cafe i'm in the lower east side right now so i know exactly what you were up to oh i love those coffee shops and so i was like if I just hold on to my job, everything will be fine. And this was the very, very early stages. Like, I still wasn't really totally out of next year. Well, you went from a very controlled environment to, like, flying around free. So it was scary. Yeah, and I still was not free.

Like, I was still mentally and, you know, emotionally very tied into the things that I had been taught. So I was really trying to, like, break loose of a lot of those invisible chains that I didn't even realize that I was. tied down by and so I met my I met Patrick who was working at the restaurant across the street in the East Village owned by the same company so it was called Matthew Kinney cuisine and I was a manager he was a chef at a place called double zero which is a vegan like pizzeria neither of us are vegan now but we met in this plant-based world which is a cult I'm just kidding sorry vegan friends um i love you there's no real leader so you're fine yeah just the lord of veggies yes and so we met there and i just didn't realize how much i needed a friend and he was so kind and he was really

trying to be helpful which raised all of my red flags because i was like what do you want yeah yeah and he I was like, I kind of just wanted... A man trying to help me be better. Interesting. Yeah, right. I was seeing this shit before. And he was... And actually, it was my... He's like, do you want to go in a late-night walk?

And you're like, I'd rather die. Yeah, no, seriously. I mean, it was funny like that. But I had a boss who told me... I was looking for a place to live. Well, let's go back a little. Allison had been arrested. And I had to leave the apartment in the middle

of the night, which was really stressful, and I was also working 14 hours a day, which I loved because then I didn't have to think about my life whatsoever. And my boss was like, why don't you ask Patrick for some suggestions of places to live because he lives in Williamsburg, and that was an easy, you know, train ride. And he knows a lot of people there, and he might be able to help you, and I was like, okay, fine. And so I ended up asking him for referrals of places to live and I just couldn't find a place to live because nobody wanted to live with me because they would Google me and they would just see branded they would see branded sex slave and I would be like like I was really good at the cult though like I was the top cult member and I was like oh my god

I'm never going to find anywhere to live because I have the worst online profile at this moment and I would just be like why don't you just take my deposit and don't Google me but that just doesn't happen And so I was really in a bad place And he offered He said, okay, you can put your stuff here in my apartment You could stay here for a little while You find a place to live And I was like, okay, that's pretty nice

No, he lived in an apartment with four other guys With rooms and space Okay, as long as there's space is not a studio Yes, and it was not a studio And he was very polite and very gentlemanly And he slept on the couch and I slept in the bed Did you think he was cute? Yes

But I also was like not in a place to even think that anyone was cute because I was feeling so, so weird inside and so stressed. And I was like, am I going to go to jail? Should I like this guy? Like there's a lot of... We're listening. It's like, this is how to find love. Join a cult. Get out of the cult.

Be confused. Sleep on a guy's couch. Yes. Hope that he's nice. Hope that he was just like really there for me in a way that I hadn't experienced anyone in a long time. obviously because in the cold that was not how my relationships were developed and he he was so helpful and like he kept wanting to feed me ice cream which I thought was like that's my love language yeah and I was like okay Van Lewin's no problem and and he is also a cook I can't even

and so he was always encouraging me to eat and he would feed me and he would even bring me food to work and food had been something that caused you a lot of pain exactly and so I was like like really feeling restricted about what I could and couldn't eat even after leaving. Yeah. And he was so cute. He was like, can I make you eggs? And I was like, okay, sure. And then he would say, like, can I add one vegetable to it?

And I was like, okay. And then can I add two? I was like, huh, okay. Like every- Recovering from an eating disorder. Well, a cult-induced eating disorder, which is so weird because it's not like I chose it. It's just like it started to happen and then I had to be good at it. And so I became, like, really anorexic.

You were, like, the best at the eating store. Oh, my God. And it's like, I'm from L.A. I know how to do this. But, honestly, it was so horrible for me because I'm naturally a chef. Myself, I cook. I'm not trained like Patrick, but I'm a foodie. And so for me...

Food brought you joy. Food brought me a lot of joy. And so that was removed. And so I've had to kind of reestablish this love of food that I had naturally. and Patrick really was the bridge for that. He's deprogramming your relationship with food and men and people. I mean, it's also great that. And we have a lot to work on together as a couple now that we've been together for like three plus years.

He now has come to know a lot more about my experience because of seduced, but also because of what I've shared with him. And he's so much more compassionate and understanding, whereas, you know, he went to school for journalism. And so he had a natural curiosity to the story when I was just sharing with him. And I was like, are you sure you want to know this shit? And he's like, well, I rather know it from you than like the news. And I was like, okay, fair enough. And he was so non-judgmental and so open to the things that I had to say, even though I could tell that certain things were making him uncomfortable, that we've really grown as a couple because of like this level of honesty that we've

had to have because it's kind of impossible to move forward if you don't oh my god okay um this is incredible we're going to end with a final game that i always play on burning in hell that i'm very excited i also have four billion questions for you um that we will get to to be continued because i the side note your grandma the princess of yugoslavia is an icon and hysterical and hilarious does my fiancee wanted me to tell you he's a big fan so am i miss her i hate co-es of it because i can't see her oh my gosh she is a powerhouse but you also come from a family of such interesting powerful women that it's it's i want people understand that the kind of people that go into cults are like type a driven individuals that are looking for a purpose come from interesting stock

yes yes um so it's called the seven deadly sins so this is you now this is india as like a more complex human. Ah, with all my scar tissue and whatnot. She's still bleeding a little, but who isn't? Seven Deadly Sins. What are you greedy about? Chocolate. Ooh.

I really love chocolate, and I love to, like, gnaw on delicious treats, and I'm definitely greedy about that. I'm less inclined to share if I have something that I really like. I love the word nosh. I feel like people should use that verb more often. Who are you envious of? And it could also be a type of person too.

Probably a type like Megan Fox. Because to be honest, like I was not expecting. I'm just telling you like, I'm just going to be real with you. Because I look at someone like, I'm like, how do you do that? Like, how are you so sexy? And like, how are you so confident? because like that's like you know if I you know had a wig on and a bunch of makeup and like somebody dressed me up I'd be so nervous to walk on the street like that and she just seems like so cool with it

and I would love to be able to like be comfortable with my sexuality and my femininity in that way and that's something that I strive for but I just like look at someone like that I'm like holy crap but but I also think people looking at you sitting down in that room and just like telling your entire story is the most confident and like hot thing you could do being like this is me and um we live and we learn well thank you what do you what do you glutton us about so besides chocolate what do you overindulgent you've like a guilty pleasure peanut butter oh yes add it on yeah i love it i just take you put the chocolate and the peanut butter sometimes and i also just like to you know find vehicles for peanut butter this is a nash podcast um when was the last time you experienced a

extreme wrath or anger? Oh, recently. That's something that I really come to enjoy because I took up boxing quite heavily. Oh, hell yeah. And so for me, I get to like really feel that rage and that aggression when I play that sport and when I practice boxing with my coach. And so sometimes I imagine this is getting it weird. But I imagine like really taking my bare fists and punching Keith in the face until he's like a puddle. And it feels really good. It's taking your power back. Yeah, and I'm not really a violent person, but there's something really like murderous

about getting that out there and sharing it and expressing it. And when I get to box, I really just feel like that power. I really, I did this thing in therapy where you like. Sorry, people. Oh, don't apologize. They can handle this. I did this thing in therapy where I like went back to a really painful time where I was scared or like someone was abusive.

and I like put myself in that spot and then I was like okay what's something you wish you did and like because your mind doesn't really know the difference between a memory and like a new memory I know and it feels so good it's like all this then you just you take that memory and you say fuck that memory because this is me now I'm going to pummel it I'm going to pummel it also like what is he 53 like he's a mini I could squash him now I have like biceps and everything actually wasn't surprising when I heard that he was short but anyway I'm not going to get into that I'm not going to get into that But when was the last time you were a sloth? So, like, lazy piece of shit, didn't do anything.

Over the summer, I spent a lot of time in my apartment. And I just, like, would allow myself a whole day where I would just be lazy and, like, order Uber eats, sushi to my bed, like, just hang around with my cats. And that for me is really relaxing and it's really good for me because I am someone who thinks like I need to be doing something in order to be valuable yeah yeah and so for me to just be a total like slob and be in my you know boxers in a t-shirt all day is super fun okay I just found out you love cats which is oh my god cats are my purpose that's my that's my cat's name beans and rice okay cat names that are food are like my everything therapy cats therapy cats

That's why you were fine without therapy. Butter saved my life. Same. Beans and rice have given me so much purpose. And I honestly, I rescued them during, you know, the beginning of quarantine. Everyone's like, don't get a cat. Don't get a cat. Get a cat.

I was like, I'm getting two. Yes. Double it. They're brother and sister, and they bring me so much joy. I have a complex question for you because you said, like, how can I be worthy without being productive? You got into Nexium because you clearly felt like if you were successful, people would love you more. And then the opposite happened where you did something that is arguably looked down upon

as unsuccessful. In society. So how do you handle that now? That's such a good question. I think what I've come to learn from this experience is that there are bigger, broader issues and that my story or my journey is just like one tiny, tiny little piece of this broader thing that has brought me a lot of sense of community and also camaraderie like with other survivors and also other women in general. And I feel like there are things that we all could learn and we could all benefit from that could help us avoid this very unusual circumstance. So you found happiness through community and through teaching and like different forms. And just kind of being like expressing yourself creativity. This is what happened to me.

this is, you know, something that could happen to you. And that's given me a lot of peace, but also working with different groups like Rain. I'm on one of their national ambassador boards and they are the premier, like, you know, anonymous sexual assault hotline. And so for me, doing any kind of activism work or even writing and expressing things that are related to the topic of keeping people safe and abolishing shame, that's like, what moves me a lot. Oh, I love it so much. And also, like, your mom was very successful in the limelight growing up,

and you probably wanted to impress her maybe. And now at least you're like, at least I'm not a cult. So it's like the girls episode where it's like, I could be doing heroin. And we have such a different relationship now. I bet. And I just love my mom. And we really get each other. And there's so much mutual respect that we have for one another because of what she did for me.

It's like, I can't even talk about it without crying. The love from that woman, like she fucking fought. And I do, yeah, your love has just become so much. It's way more real and it's way more deep and I just feel so much gratitude for her. It's not that it wasn't there, but like a challenge and obstacle was put in front of her and she became a mama bear. She lifted that car. Even though you looked at her and said, Mom, I fucking hate you. Leave me the fuck alone.

She goes, okay, whatever, this is not my girl. Yeah. She knew. When was the last time you let your ego get in the way of something? How is your ego doing? How is my ego? That's a good ego check. This is the tough question.

Yeah, this is a tough one. You know, there's a lot of places where I feel pretty insecure about my capacity to, like, learn because of, you know, my learning disability and the things that I usually avoid, like, math, for instance. and I'm really ego my ego really gets in the way of me actually like doing shit that's hard for me like I let Patrick do take care of all the bills

and all of the finances and I'm just like I don't do that I don't do that shit I don't do math and I'm like I'll pay I'll pay for half of it but like you do that

if you ever find you like try it and then it's not working and you like get pissed off because it's hard and I'm like I don't want to feel this hard shit I just want this to be easy And I'm like, that's so braddy. Yeah, but your brain just says it.

You're like, sorry my brain doesn't work that way by. Yeah, he's like, what do you think? You're better than me? I'm like, yeah, I guess. I don't deal with bills. I'm like, servant to do the bills. I'm not opening this envelope. Ew.

That's exact. I'm like, oh, gross. When was the last time you lusted over someone or who was your celebrity crush besides Patrick? Patrick is my celebrity crush? I'm trying to think of like who's my recent celebrity crush, but. I did have one long-standing celebrity crush in my life because of the Lord of the Rings movies. And I loved Vigo Morton. Oh, Vigo moment.

I was like, oh, Vigo moment. Oh, my God. He was so hot. People were really into Orlando and I was like Vigo's the Zaddy. Oh, my God. He looks like you take a punch, his light eyes. I'm obsessed. Yeah.

His Scruff. Thank you for reminding me of him because now I, no one. Okay, this is amazing. Yeah, that was a blast from the past, but also like really had a long standing impact. Vigo was so hot. No one talked about. about it enough i like the elves and all but i was more into the elf girls than i was into the elf guys i was like okay vigo can come i was like jealous that the elf guys had nicer hair than me um okay

so to wrap this up i do have okay i have two questions okay are you practicing forgiveness at all i think i have to because i don't like living with all the bitterness and so i've had to come to terms with certain things, which requires you to forgive people like Alison Mack or, you know, anyone who's wronged me in the past, it's like, it gives me relief to actually have forgiveness, but it doesn't mean that you forget everything that happened. You just have to. Yeah, like, not like a mafia movie, but I forgive, I don't forget. Right.

Because you don't want the forgiveness to feel like what they did was okay. Right, and you don't want to let people off the hook because I think that can kind of make you a little bit more susceptible to being abused again. But I also think that you have to have forgiveness for yourself and for them because they're a human being too. Yeah. Finally, for all the little devil's listening, what advice would you give in general on what to do when you're going through hell? When you're in your dark place, when you don't want to move forward, what's your go-to? Such a good question.

Because when you're in that dark, dark place, you can have your whole toolbox. You know, I have a note in my phone that's like, do this when you feel worked up. Do this. Do this. Do this. And sometimes it's like nothing works because you're in such a trench. Yeah, you could listen to every podcast. When it happens to you, you're like, no. Totally. And I think for me, what I've found is like a really good access point is music. And it's like, it gets me out of my head, gets me into my body and kind of reminds me of good memories, even when I feel so, like, resistant to. the whatever, the depression or the anxiety, like music can really snap me out of something quicker than therapy. And it gets me to a place where I'm a little more receptive to maybe feeling

better. Can you listen to songs you listen to while in the cult? Sometimes no, sometimes yes. I have a stand-up bit you'll see tomorrow where I'm like, ex-boyfriends ruin every song you listen to during the time you dated. No, that's true. I can't listen to certain songs. I'm like, nah, won't go there. And then certain songs, I'm like, yes, this is my anthem. Yeah, so you have to use that power to, like, find those positive moments or recreate new memories. Totally.

India, you have been such an incredible guest. I actually could have you on for eight hours, and I'm not even joking. We'd have our own documentary, a new documentary, seduce part seven. Where can people follow you? What programs can they get involved with? Can you just give me all the goods? Sure. I am horrible with social media.

So I'm really, really trying to get better at it, which Patrick's always like, come on, babe. Like, you got to get into it. I'm like, ah! So I'm on Instagram under India Oxenburg, just my name. You can find me there. I usually respond to messages and comments pretty regularly, unless I'm in a really fucking dark hole. And then you won't hear from me for a couple days. You can find me on Stars with Seduced, the series.

Highly recommend watch it. Thank you. If you fly Delta, it is available. Or on Amazon Prime. I think you can see it there. And also I wrote a book exclusively for Audible that I narrated, and that's called Still Learning. So those are my places. And I also work with Rain, which I mentioned to you, and they're an incredible resource for anybody who is struggling with sexual abuse, sexual assault, or maybe knows a friend who might need an anonymous contact to reach out to.

Amazing. It's been so cool to be here in person with you. See your full-fledged personality, not just a story, about something you want. through an edited documentary um and yeah i love you so much and little devils thank you for listening i'll talk to you later bye