Berner Phone - Kaitlynn Carter: Breakups & New Beginnings

Episode Date: September 2, 2020

Kaitlynn has had some very public breakups and is going to hell to explain with the ef happened. She explains why she got a divorce from Brody Jenner, finding independence, the price of fame, dating a woman, why she decided to do The Hills, and how she met her new man.--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berninginhell/support Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Burning Hell. What's up, guys? We are in the dark, scary depths of hell, and I am with, I'm so excited, the Caitlin Carter. Welcome. How are you? Why, thank you. I just went from very low energy to very high energy, so she's like, calm it down. I just went and snorted. something came back you may know you may know katelyn from a variety of places she was like a big time lifestyle blogger you had your own brand then you married brodie jenner then you were one of the stars of the hills on mtv then you dated myly cyrus so far correct and then you came out with your new podcast the bright side which i was on it centered around finding the bright side in every dark situation and that's when me and you met i've like i'd known about you in the public eye and then

to be able to sit down and have such a deep great conversation with you was just awesome and i'm very happy to have you here today i'm very happy to be here today um i was just saying how it's so nice to not be the host for once and just but be careful what you wish for because you are in hell okay well i kind of like not knowing what i've got coming at me so because you've done reality tv i guess you kind of have that side to you that's like, let's see what happens in life. Improv. Improv, exactly. And life is improv if we're being honest with each other. But was there a particular dark situation that happened to you that kind of triggered you to want to start the bright side? I mean, dear Lord. Was there one? I mean, there were a few. I feel like 2019 was

easily the hardest year of my life. And, you know, not only did my marriage fall apart, but then, of course, you know, I had my very public next relationship. And then I went on to date someone after that. And that was a little bit of a disaster. So I think that what led to the launch of the bright side was that as I was going through these experiences, I, you know, I was talking with one of my best friends and every time something worse would happen, like I felt like they were compounding bad things going on, right? Like I went through this breakup and then it felt like it was sort of never ending the press around it and I don't know, just sort of everyone involved.

It was all, it was very chaotic. And each time something bad would happen or I felt like it was bad anyway for me, I would somehow say to my friend, well, you know, the thing is that I have this learning experience because of it, you know, like there's something good that comes out of each experience. And I feel like every relationship, it's the same thing. You know, you grow from each relationship. And there are moments in my life for sure where I've looked at back, look back at experiences or relationships and thought, wow, I really, I want to say I regret this. But for some reason, and just in my brain, I'm like, no, I don't regret it though, because I feel like if I hadn't

had that experience, I wouldn't have learned X, Y, and Z. I wouldn't be where I am now, which is in a much better, happier place. And so I just don't, I don't believe in regretting things. And I just think there's always something positive that you can get from any negative experience. I love that so much. And this is going to sound kind of crazy. But when, like, slightly bad things happen to you, like, you can still stay in it and, like, be stagnant. But it's, like, Like hitting rock bottom is so great because you are forced to make changes in your life that you might have never changed if you didn't have to face like bad, bad emotions. Yeah.

And I mean, also I think that when you're in the darkest place you've ever been, you are forced to take a look at yourself and figure out what the hell it is that's leading you into these situations and what you're doing wrong. And I think that one of the best things that anyone can do when they're in a bad place like that is to look at themselves. Like stop blaming anyone else and stop looking outside of yourself, you know, for the solutions. I think that it's taking a look at, you know, what got you there in the first place. Oh, you can grow and evolve to be better.

I think finding complete independence and, you know, just being entirely self-sufficient makes a huge difference. Like you shouldn't be relying or depending on anyone else for anything at any point in your life, in my opinion. And I think that when you're out of place where you don't need anyone else is when you get to a point where you're so strong and you feel actually really satisfied from within. You know, like you shouldn't be relying on any other person to feel happy or satisfied ever. And you're speaking from a very unique place of your person who's dated some of the most powerful famous people in the world. Why do you think you fell into those situations?

Well, I'll tell you, I think that because, I'm from a really small town and from a really normal family. Where? In New Hampshire. Yeah. I think that my background is just so honestly basic and simple that I think I'm grounded in really traditional values. And, you know, like I think that honesty and transparency and loyalty are such

important things. And I think when you take someone who grew up in a small town and has that as a foundation and you throw them into the mix in LA, you're just a little different from a lot of the rest of the crowd, you know? And I think that people who have grown up in the spotlight and who have not been surrounded by people who are honest or trustworthy or loyal or genuinely care about them, when they meet someone like me who actually genuinely does, that's, that's attractive, you know, like you want to feel like somebody really cares about you and is genuine and real. And I think that the fault in that is that I'm overly empathetic. So I think that I tend to find people

who, you know, are struggling and I feel like need those characteristics in me. Like, they need someone who they can really rely on. And I sort of maybe let it get a little carried away. Where you will, like, be there for anything they need. Yeah. And I'm super empathetic. So even when people's behavior is bad, I will make up reasons why it's okay or like, you know, okay, this person went through this trauma, so they can't help that they behave like this. So I am here to help them get through that, you know, and I tend to put myself second for sure. I'll always prioritize. If I'm in love with someone, I'm going to prioritize them.

That can attract people, and we're talking in generalities, but that can attract people who are very happy with putting themselves first. Totally. And I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned this past year is to prioritize myself. And, you know, you can still love someone and have boundaries and, you know, make sure that you are taking care of yourself, you know, not necessarily putting yourself ahead of them in every situation because I do think that there's a time and a place where your partner, you know, needs help or, you know, you really got to put them first. But for the most part, that shouldn't be the case. You know, it shouldn't always be them first. And you shouldn't always, they shouldn't always be able to rely on you while you can't rely on. them, you know? So that's just one of the biggest things I've learned this year is how important it is to really understand what it is that you need yourself. And, you know, even if it means making a list of the things that are most important to you and a partner, and not really

wavering from that, you know, and if somebody is making you feel bad about yourself or insecure, or they are just requiring too much of you and you're having to give up too much of yourself in order to help someone else out, that's not the relationship for you. You know, it's not healthy. You're nailing it because I bring people on burning in hell because I like to find people that other people might be looking up to, to then be like, well, this is the reality of the situation, and we're all struggling at certain times. And I think the scariest thing in a relationship is to lose yourself.

And it's like, it doesn't matter if you're dating the most famous, successful, rich person in the world. if you lose yourself, you're going to feel empty. When it comes to, you know, these relationships, I'm not going into them looking at it as, I'm not looking at these people as the most famous, successful, rich person. You're like not intimidated at all, are you? Especially someone from a small town, like, I don't know.

But I guess in L.A. You've probably met so many people of different levels of fame. Yeah, I mean, I, I dated someone pretty famous when I was very, young and so I think I sort of got over any of that appeal very early on because that relationship was horribly unhealthy and so I mean any of what would have made that seem exciting in the first place I was like this is nothing I mean it's it's just like a relationship with anyone else and then you know over the past year I guess the relationships that I was in between Brody and Miley and whoever else um those all formed out of friendships you know like we

were friends first and living in a small town and we hung out at our homes. It wasn't like we were running around, you know, getting pictures taken or like going to concert. I mean, you know, it's like these are these are just friendships. So the way I've looked at these people in the first place was just as a friend. But it's funny how the narrative can be so different because from someone who just, you know, checks Instagram occasionally, it's like, okay, so Caitlin and Brody broke up. Maybe something happened on the hills. Maybe it was too intense for them, whatever. And now she is gallivanting having the time of her life with Miley. Oh, it ended. But, you know, she's been just seeing whoever she wants and she's so free. And like that was like my kind of perspective just from like

occasionally seeing it. But it sounds like it really wasn't that simple. No, certainly wasn't that simple. You know, my relationship with Brody was like it lasted six years. And so like any relationship, I would say that when I met him, I was so young that my priorities in life were very different from what they were a few years later. And I think because, you know, we're all told when we're a certain age that we're supposed to get married and have babies and that's like the traditional trajectory in life, right? So I met Brody when I was 25 and we had the time of our lives. We were all I wanted to do was party and have fun. And he was the best, you know, like we got along great. We still get along great. Like we still easily could hang out every

day and have no problem as friends. But romantically, we really wanted different things. And I think that was the issue was, you know, we were both kind of clinging on to this relationship that we had had when we first met and trying to make it work as more evolved or grown adults. And one another thing I've learned this year that I would say to other people is like, just because you're with one person at the time in your life when you're supposed to, quote, unquote, get made. And married and have babies doesn't mean that that's the right person for you to do that with. You know, so I think I was trying, I was ignoring a lot of the reality of that relationship, like that we were in two totally different places.

You know, he was not nearly as excited about having kids as I was, for example. Like I was fully, I've always, kids have been a huge priority for me. It's definitely a big, I guess, it's like my number one goal at some point in my life to have kids, you know, I've always known that I want to have kids. And he didn't really feel so strongly about that. And I think that in hindsight, that's a big thing to be paying attention to. You know, you really want to be on the same page with the person. So over the course of six years, we just sort of grew in different directions. And it was really, it sounds cliche, but it was as simple as that, you know, we just kind of got to a place where,

all right, we're just not on the same page anymore. And that was literally it. Like, we kind of had a very cut and dry series of conversations where it was like, do we even want the same things? no so then what do you do you know like there's no real option but to split up do you think the show sped things up or like exasperated emotions at all i think we were kind of already there to be honest um i think the show in a way was kind of nice because we got to spend more time together and uh i don't know i actually feel like the show in ways sort of made us stronger because we really latched on to each other during the production of that show because you know you've got enough people trying to attack you on a daily basis when you're filming a reality show. You have to have each other's

back. Yeah. And we definitely did. I feel like he had mine. I had his for sure. But, no, we were, we were just sort of already at that point. And then, um, so by the time, you know, everything happened with Miley, I was in a very different headspace. I was sort of like, you know, when you get out of any breakup fresh out of a breakup and you're like, I'm just going to go wild and like have the best time ever. and you kind of have that initial burst of energy and excitement. Oh, yeah. Not to say, you know, I mean, I was sad that the relationship ended with Brody for sure. But I was immediately in another relationship that I was so excited about and it was, you know,

really romantic and fun. So I feel like it wasn't really until after she and I split up that I sort of mourned everything, you know? So it was kind of like one big double whammy. that makes so much sense were you afraid to go on a show knowing deep down the new and brodie were struggling with some stuff i think i was in denial so i so no you're such a real ass bitch you're so fucking real like you're like yeah i was in denial next question no because that's so relatable and true like the whole phase of a breakup is first like kind of questioning it

thinking you're kind of crazy like am i why am i thinking this there's so much denial before a breakup i took a year i mean i took almost okay maybe not a year but like nine months after once smiley and i broke up i took nine months of being alone and that gave me a really good perspective because i had a chance to actually dig through everything that had happened and you know not just in the past year but in the past 10 years well you know what am i doing that's creating these situations and also, like, what really happened, like what really went wrong and, yeah, just kind of, because I wanted to be very clear moving forward. I did not want to get into another relationship and repeat the same mistakes. So I was like, I really need to understand

what's been going on and how I've been handling things so that going forward I can have like a really strong, healthy relationship. And I do believe that some people are so right for you in that time of your life. Some guys are the ones you're meant to have kids with. Some guys are the ones you're meant to like grow in your early 20s and learn about yourself with. And it's smart of you to know like, oh, this person fit like a glove, you know, in the fall, but now my hand is bloated and it's not working in the spring. Yeah. I mean, I do. I definitely believe that some people are meant to come into your life for just periods of time and teach you certain things. And I think that that can be really painful and growth is painful. But at the end of the day, I mean, you know, I'm in a

relationship now where I feel like I apply so much of what I learned last year to this new relationship. And it's made it so functional and smooth. Like it's just, it's a world of difference. And things where I would compromise before, you know, I think there have been times, I would say, yeah, in the past couple of relationships I've had where I felt sort of pushed around a little bit like, you know, I needed to do things a certain way or, you know, I wasn't really standing up for what made sense for me. I was trying to adjust in order to accommodate the other person and like be whatever this person needed. And now I'm able to really look at myself and say, okay, I know that I'm not this, X, Y, and Z, you know, and if this person needs this for me,

I have to be honest with them and just say, no, I cannot do that. Boundaries. Yeah, I didn't have any boundaries before. But it's not, at the time, you're not like, oh, I'm going to bend over backwards for the person. At the time, you're like, oh, it's going to make them happy. And I like making them happy. Well, I think also, you know, speaking specifically to my relationship with Miley, I was literally divorcing my husband, moving out of our home that we lived in for six years, trying to find a new home. The company that I'd been running for five years, we had just sold. So that was now done. So I was figuring out what I was going to be doing for work. The Hills was on hiatus. We were between seasons. So literally my entire life was entirely in flux.

And so combined that with trying to make a new relationship work with someone. And it was just chaotic, you know, because we're trying to like make a life together in some way. And I don't even know what direction my life is going. And I think that, you know, that was a big factor in us splitting up was not, it wasn't a matter of, you know, not wanting to be together. It was more like, or anything. No, no, it was nothing like that. We were like super happy and everything was great. But I think we both felt like we needed time to grow, you know, as individuals. Like, you can't just jump. It's not healthy to just jump from one relationship into another. And I definitely felt that way. Like, we, I really needed to find who I was on my own and establish my career path and

everything that I wanted to be doing on my own before I could be with anyone in any relationship. Were you afraid at all of like Brody's reaction to like you and another public relationship, especially with a woman? No, because I again, I'm super honest and transparent with everyone I've ever had relationships with. So I spoke with Brody about all of that in advance of it ever becoming public. Like I literally went to his house and I was like just FYI, this is what's going on. It's also wild because these are things that like most relationships.

relationships would never even have to be like, by the way, you're going to see this soon out there? We're navigating very unusual circumstances for sure. So that's the other thing is there's literally no one you can go to for advice. And that was kind of crazy because I think in a way, I definitely leaned on Miley for that stuff for a while. I was like, you know, she has a lot of experience in that space and kind of knows how to handle certain situations. But then once she I broke up, um, I was really on my own to figure it out. And that was a learning experience unto itself. Was this the first relationship you've had with a woman? Mm-hmm. Was it weird that like you were probably having these new experiences with your

sexuality at such a public scale? You know, I, you would think that it would be weirder for me. Mm-hmm. But I also credit my parents with this because I feel like my parents always were so supportive and have always been so accepting of anything that I've ever wanted to do or who I am as a person. And same with my friends. I feel like I have the most amazing friends and support group. So it didn't even cross my mind that to be concerned about what the world would think about me dating a woman. Also, I feel like it's kind of the ultimate like next relationship. I know like after a really, really hard breakup or even a divorce, everything reminds you of the guy. Like I literally dated like a foreign dude just so I didn't like get reminded of like the American guy dated. So I'm like

date a girl after so you don't even fucking get reminded of them at all. Fresh start. Yeah, that's true for sure. And I think it's, uh, I've said this before, but I think the dynamic between two women is very, very different in a relationship. I mean, think about how like I feel like the biggest arguments that we have with men in relationships are about like a lack of emotion on their part or, you know, know, their inability to really connect on an emotional... How they communicate differently. Yeah, or how they communicate differently, exactly. Like, we're maybe more emotional than men are when it comes to communication.

And with... So with two women, you've got two highly capable communicators who are extremely emotional. And, like, everything just kind of feels seamless, you know? Like, everything's easy. But by the same token, when women go through breakups, we're far more calculated and And, you know, I mean, we like post things on Instagram that means certain things and we have secret messages that we send through, you know what I mean? And then put that on like a mass scale with like media and like you've got all these different avenues for communicating certain

messages and thoughts. And like, I mean, at one point I said to my brother, I don't know, I was telling him about something that had just happened. And I was like, God, this is just so hurtful. And he goes, Caitlin, welcome to dating a woman. I was like, how can, I'm like, how can someone be so manipulative or like, you know, have, whatever it was. I don't even remember what it was, to be honest. But he was like, this is what it's like dating any girl. And I was like, holy shit.

So after dating Miley, did you feel like you had to label yourself in some way in your sexuality? Or where did you stand? Label-wise? Well, I don't know if you, I don't know if you ever saw the piece that I wrote for L. I actually just read it. But I wanted to see if you were still feeling. the same same um i i still feel the same because you know and and i'm so i'm still so happy that i wrote that piece because i genuinely i feel like that piece has stood the test of time for me like

um the reason i wrote it in the first place was really a matter of owning my narrative because i felt like you know when she and i broke up even the press was saying you know like oh katelyn is so shocked and blindsided by this breakup and i'm like sitting at home And, you know, I didn't really care what the public thought about that. I was like, whatever. I don't care what the story is about why we did that. But that wasn't, yeah, and that wasn't true. It was like, it was definitely more of like a mutual thing where I participated in the

decision. You know what I mean? And, like, it just kept getting more and more carried away. And I felt like every day there was some new thing that was just so ridiculous and over the top. And the way it was being handled was just with, you know, completely out of my control. I just felt like it was messy and ridiculous. and it was honestly getting embarrassing to me.

So I just said, I need to say something, but what do you say? And, you know, like putting out a statement just feels so tacky. I don't know. I just, I didn't know what the best way to handle it was. And I thought, okay, if I write an essay, I mean, I studied journalism and writing in school. It's like literally what I'm good at is my method of creative expression is writing. So what if I wrote an actual real honest essay? And I just explained my thoughts and kind of let this be my one statement, the one thing I'm

going to say and just let that be it. You know, um, so that's what I did. And yes, to answer your question, I still feel the same. I think that, um, you know, I still am open to dating women. I still, I mean, I've talked to like I've had, I've kind of experienced that actually over the last nine months, you know, I've had those experiences with other women. Um, but I just don't see. I don't know. I feel like it's too difficult for me to pick a label because I'm just kind of doing whatever I feel like doing in the moment. And you're currently seeing someone new. How do you guys meet?

This is funny too, actually, because we met through one of the cast members out of the hills. Oh. Yes. She met him at a holiday party. And, yeah, and I don't know. I was talking to her sometime early on in quarantine. And she said, you know, there's this guy.

I think you would click. really well with and he's the best guy ever he's so cool so sweet so interesting okay but you've had probably so many friends tell you that about guys and you're like oh he's so nice then why aren't you fucking dating him like well she she wanted to okay that's good that's good so she said to me she had wanted to date him and it just wasn't happening and she said to me I would not introduce him to anyone else because like I think she in a way sort of wanted him on the backburner type of deal like she's like I wouldn't introduce him to anyone else but I I love you and you're the best and I really want you to date someone who's great and this guy's really great and yeah so she did so two months

went by in quarantine because we're in lockdown so I was like it doesn't matter whatever I'm glad there's this great guy but we actually aren't going to get to know each other at all right now two months went by um my other one of my best friends said to me hey Um, my boyfriend's been hanging out with this guy, so and so a lot. Um, his name's Chris, by the way. But anyway, this, this guy, Chris, have any of you heard of him? Like, he's really hot and really cool. And I was like, I've heard of him. And actually, one of my friends wanted to set me up with him. So I hit the girl from the hills up again. And I was like, hey, can you please make this happen with this guy? So he like came back in the universe for you. Like, yes. So when

he came, when his name came up a second time, I was like, oh, okay. That's, that's a sign. The universe is Right. I do believe in stuff like that. Like the universe delivers. So, yeah, so then I went back to my friend and I was like, I think you were hesitating before because you kind of want him for yourself, but please me, you just set me up with him. And we went on a date and that was it. We've been together ever since. So it's been like almost three or four months. And that's fun. That's so fun during quarantine to have someone new in your life. You get to really focus on, get to know. Yeah, that's been nice because he's super busy too. He's a fashion designer. He makes this beautiful clothing and yeah, women's wear. And he, uh, is just the best. But anyway, I'm sorry, I could like,

oh no, I love this. I get carried away with excitement about him because he's just so great. And you're really into fashion too. So do you like that he kind of is passionate about something you are? I mean, he's certainly has, is much more talented in that space than I am. But I haven't appreciated. for it. So I mean, at least I feel like I can admire what he's doing. And he just helps me look better because I'll be like, what shoes do I wear? And he always knows. It's kind of nice. So you like creative men? I think that's what I realize. Yeah. Like I love anyone who's creative because I think I'm not that creative. So I think that it is really attractive to me when I get to work with an artist or like alongside observe their work and just kind of participate without really having to

be responsible for it if that makes sense like I love just being a part of the creative process but I'm not I wouldn't be able to do it on my own I love when the person I'm dating is like really good at something I'm not and then I can brag about it and I feel like it's so difficult and impossible and they could do it the other funny thing about him is that if I take him anywhere you would never know he's like this southern guy from Texas who is just so unassuming he's like into skating and surfing and whatever and he doesn't say anything about fashion design to anyone so if someone When asked him what he does, he'll go, oh, I work for a brand. And I'm like, are you kidding me?

Like his, his brand is like, they've won like CFDA and Vogue Awards and they go to the every year and like, I know. And I'm like, come on. But that's like so hot that he does that. It is so hot. It's the biggest turn off when like the person you're with is just bragging by themselves all the time. It's like, we get it.

You have a small dick. But I also like when guys surprised you because you know when you've been dating for so long, guys are girls and he meets someone. You're just like, yeah, I've read your book. before I'm there's nothing like exciting but when someone has like layers to them it it turns me on yeah 100% quick shift to reality TV I know that like you probably didn't necessarily sign up for the hills or like you weren't a part of it when brodie was on it obviously in the back in the day did you ever think you would do reality TV and like overall did you enjoy the experience uh I did not

No, I didn't think I would ever do reality TV. Essentially, the idea to go back to the hills had been floating for a few years, and Brody and I had always said no. But then it got to a point where we were, you know, I think because we were sort of having trouble in our relationship, we were trying to come up with ways that we could maybe do a project together because we'd always worked so separately. And we thought, you know, maybe this is the time. maybe we go and do the show together and just see how that goes and like we'll get to spend so

much more time together and that'll be really nice um and so that was actually the reason why we decided eventually to do it but i hadn't ever thought that i would no it scares me it still scares me yeah because you know you get paranoid about things that you probably don't even really need to be paranoid about but you're opening your life up to so much you know external speculation that it's it's a little yeah it's interesting too how you're like we get to spend more time with each other, I feel like you have a finger on the pulse of like the LA scene. And do you know how there's been like a lot of celebrity divorces and

breakups? Like do you think quarantine has been maybe affecting people who used to like have a functioning life of just like traveling all the time to now being forced to like be on the couch with someone? I think that both have both things have happened. I think that for people who were single, they're like latching back on to past relationships or people they were comfortable with before because they feel so lonely and desperate.

And then I think on the flip side, yeah, there are people who are being forced to be together all the time. And it's like, ew. You're annoying. I'm like, can you not breathe in my direction? Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's definitely an interesting. And I think it's kind of, in a way, I think there are some really good things that have come out of quarantine. A, whether it's, you know, just rushing a relationship to end that would have eventually ended anyway. Yeah. B, I like that when you go to the airport now, you don't have to touch anything. Everything is all of a sudden touchless, which I'm trying to figure out why the hell that wasn't

the case in the first place. And we're a lot more clean now with the bathrooms everywhere public. I mean, like, why are we not like this in the first place? I don't think we're going to go back to like our messy ways. And hopefully we've, again, the moral of the story, we've learned. We've learned from our mistakes and hopefully things will get better soon. um delving a little deeper i think that you're like so funny so smart so beautiful but i need to know what's your biggest physical insecurity and emotional insecurity okay um i mean i have a few physical

insecurities one i mean who doesn't right but one is my ears i have one ear that sticks out really weird this one i've never noticed right now but this one does um and also i would say um i don't know my posture i have scoliosis oh my gosh so it's really hard for me to stand super straight all the time and i have big boobs that are always pulling my back on so my posture i'm always so stressed about like anytime i see any pictures of myself and i was like damn it can you just stand up straight watching myself on reality tv i was like you are an old person just humping over all the time like the angles but also as someone in i love stereotyping l-a but did you ever think of getting surgery on your ear or like why have you not i've thought about it

i probably should or well i don't know i'm not saying you should by any means i'm just no i have thought about it i don't know i'm a little scared of i don't want to i've never been put under like under general anesthesia that just terrifies me me too no i haven't ever done a surgery like about I think that's why. I haven't noticed it and I also think that it's not necessarily like something that people be like, ew, it's like, oh, you're just not perfectly symmetrical. Trust me, my hairstylist is very aware of it and we like to keep it covered. We know what, we know we've got all the tricks.

Oh my God, I love that with your makeup artist and your hairstylist, it's all about like what you're insecure about and how to cover it. What about with your personality or with your emotions? Well, I'll say that I think I struggled really. bad at the end of last year with and I've never been like this I've always been very confident and independent um for whatever reason that's just kind of how I've always been but at the end of last year I think because of just how chaotic my life was for you know after Brody and I split up and I felt like I didn't I think that having your job really you know locked in and

like having, just having purpose on a day-to-day basis. I feel like I was sort of lacking that at that moment in time. And I got, I ended up getting really lost in this spiral of insecurity. Like nothing I did felt like it was good enough. And I, I felt like, I don't know, I just was really down to myself. I think I got really insecure about stupid things. But I think when I, you know, when you're lacking purpose, it's easy to sort of get lost in like little insecurities. So, I feel a lot better now, but I would say that I have the tendency if I'm not being really productive with work to start to get really down on myself. Like, I'll wake up in the morning. And if I don't have work to take care of that day, I'll feel immediately depressed. So for me, it's having a,

you know, keeping a really busy work schedule and feeling like each day I have some kind of purpose. Yeah, you feel like you've accomplished something. But obviously you don't want to feel like your purpose is always connected to like the results of your job. But that's when you've also, just feel like alive and happy is when you're like creating something or well i think i put a lot of pressure on wanting to have a family and i had to sort of let that go like your timeline in your head exactly you had it all lined up well right and i mean and i and i had it totally lined up with brodie and thinking okay by this time i'll for sure have kids and then when that wasn't working i really had to just suck it up and be like you know what i'm just going to have to get used to the idea

that this isn't happening now. But I had a doctor actually asked me what my purpose was, like in the fall. And I was like, my purpose is to have kids and have a family and raise like wonderful humans for the rest of, you know, for the world. I don't want to put these wonderful people out in the world. And he was like, yeah, okay, but like what besides that? And obviously I've always had jobs, but nothing that I ever felt was like a clear enough purpose, like something that I felt so passionate about that it would be my purpose. And that was another big part. And that was another big part of creating my podcast because I was like, you know, I definitely have more to contribute to the world than just kids. But in the moment, I was so latched on to the idea of

having kids and having a family that I like couldn't see past it. You know what I mean? It was like my one big goal. And your kids want to have a mom that feels like fulfilled, again, like independently. Totally. So I think that was another thing in, you know, the last nine months that I really worked on was finding other things that I'm passionate about. And I ended of writing a TV show and I created my podcast. And I've been doing a lot of just freelance writing in general. And that's been so great because all of a sudden, the idea of having kids is like not anywhere near as much of a priority. Like, I mean, I still know I want to do it one day. But it's lost a lot of that, you know. Well, it sounds like you're definitely not going to force it

for your happiness. And it's interesting that during this time that you're like finding what brings you joy. You've also like naturally fell into like a fun relationship with someone that seems like it's starting off healthier than maybe in the past. Yeah. And we were talking about I think I was telling you about this before we started recording, but I was on a different podcast a few months ago and I said to the, it was Nick Viles podcast and we were talking about dating in the public eye and I just said, oh, God, you know, I would never want to do that again. I want my relationships to be private going forward. And since then, anytime I've, you know, like I do hardly post anything on Instagram as it relates to my dating but I I think I've had a few

people say to me oh my God I thought you said you're going to be private about your dating and now you you talk about this person here and there on Instagram and I'm like I didn't mean that I want to hide the person I'm dating like that's not really that's not what I meant I just meant more that I wouldn't want I don't want to have a public does that make sense well you also dealt with the most abrasive public relationship like in the world for two months like it was really intense and insane i know you were in it so it's hard to like look outside of it but it just sounds like you've had a little PTSD i think when you're in it and you're in love and you have that partnership it's totally fine because you have each other and it's like

you know the two of you against the world so it's fine you know you don't really like again even in those moments i wasn't really looking outside of the relationship and i didn't even pay attention to any the public stuff i was like okay whatever we have to go to this event let me like throw something on and go like it was it was not that wasn't really a part of the relationship in my mind i think the relationship happened behind closed doors but the problem with it was the break was the aftermath yep because all of a sudden you know anything that i say or do i mean it's just it's like you don't want to deal with the aftermath that's basically what it is once and i think that on another level that that's the case for even if you're not a public figure you know if you tell

all of your friends and family that you're dating someone and it only lasts a few months and then every person you see is going to go oh what happened to so and so you know what i mean you don't want to deal with that my first relationship that was like with a kind of like well-known comedian i never posted him on my instagram once and i i never knew why i didn't because i was so into him like the first six months and then i realized it was because deep down like i knew it wasn't right and i knew we were going to break up and i did not want to deal with people being like where's that guy what happened to him like it's hard exactly you don't want to be reminded of that and like I mean I have one of the one of the worst moments like through my breakup was like you know I had these photos up and in fairness

like I think that Miley has a fan base that's a lot more invested in every single little detail than Brody ever did so you know I took all the photos of Brody and I down that were more romantic a long time like when we broke up it was like okay we're just going to archive you know just to kind of like tone things down a little bit on here not out of any kind of anger or anything like that. It was just like, okay. Nothing was burned. No cars were scratched.

No. But with Miley, it was a very different story. I had a few photos up of she and I together. And it kind of got to the point where it was like, you know, she unfollowed me on Instagram. And then everyone's like losing their shit over it and like telling me how I'm so pathetic that I'm still following her. But in my mind, I'm like, I'm just trying to be a mature adult and handle this respectfully. and not have to deal with any of this crap and eventually I started dating someone new and he said to me, you know, at what point are you going to like take down those photos? In fairness, looking back,

I'm like, why did I listen to him? That was really dumb. But I also felt like if it's something that bothers him, then. And by the way, it's not the guy I'm dating now, by the way, but someone else. And I was like, yeah, fair enough. You know, it's been enough time. I think I can take him down. literally immediately when I took them down I had people just like ripping on me like oh you're still so obsessed with her you just can't get over it you if so it was like if the photos were up I was still obsessed and I needed to move on and if I took them down I was like a psycho obsessive freak also what I think when I hear someone saying oh you're such a psycho you're so obsessed with them you can't get over them I see them projecting their own

insecurities of stuff they're struggling with onto you yeah that's probably true but it was like my point just being that if you don't put it out there in the first place then you don't have to deal with that kind of and that's basically all I meant when I was talking to Nick I was like I'm just not doing that again like I don't want to have every little detail criticized so and that is a thousand percent valid um Caitlin you're doing amazing in hell I want to wrap up with one final game called the seven deadly sins What are you greedy about? Oh, God. Sorry, I'm really bad with rapid fire things. We're going to edit this.

Yeah, you're going to take your time. I would say vacations, because, like, I, like, love to travel more than anything. And that's what I will always spend my money on. And that's, like, the only thing with partners, with any friends, like, I just always want to go places and do things. I'm the worst of vacations. Like, I've never gone. Do you have any advice for planning, like, the perfect girls trip or, like, romantic

trip once it's safe to really do it all the time yeah i mean i i always um in advance will like trip advisor wherever i'm going and yelp and i mean it depends on where you are but i'll find the the best restaurants and like make a list and kind of organize an itinerary so i can hit the best places for dinner and um find out like what's relevant to that culture wherever you're going and like you know if it's london find the best afternoon tea spot and you know visit whatever major tourist destinations there are there. I think that if you're going to go somewhere, especially somewhere far away, you've got to make the most of your trip. I don't like beach vacations because I think they're boring. I like to just go places where I can learn about

the history of a place and really explore and like kind of delve into the culture. So I don't know. I think just having like planning an itinerary in advance and really getting to see a lot. I love that so much because I think I've been like stressed like, oh, if I do that, like it has to be really fun. I have to make sure it's fun. But you just kind of have to take the risk and do a little research. Also, one of my favorite tips for road trips, since that's kind of a big thing right now. Like Chris and I just did a road trip to Aspen a few weeks ago. And I will in the middle of nowhere go on Yelp and it'll tell you sort of along your route where there, if you can find a five star like out here, it's usually Mexican food. There'll be

like some insane Mexican restaurant. I've never gone wrong picking a five-star place off of Yelp like in the middle of nowhere. There are always these little hidden gems. And we had the best Mexican ever. And it was like a two food trucks side by side. And they had converted a gas station into a restaurant. So there were tables where the gas pumps used to be. And it was so cool. Because it's like spontaneous and it's good food. Exactly. Who are you envious of? I think. I mean, I'm definitely envious. of a few people. But I will also say that anyone I'm envious of, I usually try to, like, I usually find something

in them that I just really admire and I try to kind of adopt what it is that I admire about the person. Honestly, anyone who has really good style. Because I don't feel like it comes naturally to me at all. Like, I feel like I have to work for it. I get so frustrated with trying to put together an outfit. And like, yeah, anytime somebody just has naturally super good. like they can walk into a vintage store and put together the best outfit oh i know what you mean like

where you can tell they're not fake and like from their hair to like their toenails everything is like on style of what they're doing like you can tell that i just like switched my shirt but it looks effortless yes like they're not trying too hard they just look perfect what are you glutness about so this is different from greed it's more like what do you over indulge in i have a lot i would say I would say lately it's been pizza. Like I've been non-stop eating pizza. Something about cheese and bread I need all the time. Generally cheese. I put cheese on everything. And I don't eat any other dairy, but for whatever reason, I just cannot stop with cheese. I love it so much. It shows like you've lived in L.A. a while, but you're not like all the way from L.A. Right. Yes. And also aged cheeses don't have

lactose in them. Fun fact. Look at us learning new things in hell. Like a Parmesan or whatever, then you don't have to worry about the lactose. I love that. When was the last time you experienced extreme wrath? So anger. Okay, well, I will say in general, I'm not a very angry person. I would always describe the emotion and this frustration. Sorry, this is like the worst, this is like the worst answer because I'm not answering. But I feel like, okay, so I'm the type of person who whether it's a friendship, romantic relationship, whatever, if someone's been in my life and they're an important part of my life, I will always want to have, they'll always have a special place in my heart, I guess is what I would say. Like, I kind of have unconditional friendships and

like romantic relationships. So I think I felt frustrated. I mean, I had a friend that I lost recently and because she just didn't want to, I mean, whatever, there were some issues, I guess. and I think that makes me sort of angry and frustrated because I feel like there's always a reason to maintain a relationship or a friendship. Even if you're not going to hang out and see each other or talk all the time, I feel like everything should always be ended in like a cordial way. Like a mature way. Well, yeah, I don't know.

Because that's the other thing I wonder about is like, I've had to think about this too. Is it mature to remain cordial and friendly or is it sometimes more mature to be like, I don't ever, like, cut each other out of your lives. I don't know. Yeah, it's like, what's actually healthier for you? Yeah, and I don't know the answer to that. But I would say the most frustrated that I've been and we could call it angry or wrathful is just, yeah, at like the lack of working to kind of maintain some kind of cordiality

and a friendship. I get that. I do think one thing reality TV has taught me is you'll see, like, how you have your point, but that, like, the other person does have their own valid point. And normally, if you don't watch yourself on a TV show to see, like, how things unfold, you'd never know how your friend feels. But that, like, I totally get how they could have felt that way and how, like, there really is, like, three truths to every. Right. I mean, well, I think that I tend to, I mean, I don't know how you are with this, but, like, I think there are kind of two schools of thought when it comes to relationships ending.

Like, mine is, like, every person I've ever had a romantic relationship with, I am going to respect them forever. even if we have a horrible breakup, which I haven't really ever had. But if we did, it's like, I still have some kind of love for that person. Like, no matter what, you know what I mean? We had an intimate relationship. We went to things together. So I will always try to maintain some sort of, you know, like, okay, we can be. Respect at least.

Yeah. But then on the flip side, I know people who are like when a relationship ends, like, wipe your hands of it. You're done. You never speak to each other again. Goodbye. I think it depends on the person, but there definitely needs to be boundaries. Yeah. When was the last time you were a sloth? So like a lazy piece of shit. I feel like I was kind of a sloth yesterday. I had a little pool day on Sunday. And I had a few tequila. And yesterday in the morning, I just laid around in bed and watched movies until probably like 11 or 12. And I finally got up and went for a hike, but I was like dreading. Like the whole way to the hike, I was like too tired.

I have a whole stand-up bit how, like, people in L.A. just, like, love to go on hikes when they, like, need to get, like, refresh or, like, you know, to make themselves feel better. And I'm like, I'm from New York. Going to the top of a mountain to be alone with my own thoughts is not healthy for me. Well, first of all, I did not make it to the top. But second, I mean, I did feel a lot better. I think it's just getting the blood going. So whatever you need to do, whether it's like, you know, go for a run or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, for me to. to stay in bed until 11 or 12 is kind of insane. I'm usually like a 7.30 in the morning person. So that was yesterday. And I'm proud of you for that. When was the last time you lusted over someone. I know that you're happy with Chris, but as someone who's dated a lot of celebs, do you have like a celebrity crush? She's like, I do not want to date these people anymore. I do not. No, I don't even, I guess this kind of goes back to what you were saying before,

but I don't look at I don't really I don't know no I mean like sometimes in a movie a character will really do it for me and then I'll sort of have a crush like I always think Tom Hardy's really hot in movies yeah his his like swag do you think that you could see yourself ever dating someone of like that level of fame of like Miley again no you're like I'm good I'm way good on that And not anything against my lead. That's not at all what I'm saying. Like, I mean, she's wonderful. But it's just what goes along with it.

I don't know how anyone, I mean, you sacrifice a lot when you're in that position. And I mean, not to say that I did, but I feel like for anybody who is that famous. And I think that even a lot of your decisions, like your personal decisions, you don't get to make for yourself. It's like if you're a one woman or one man multi-million dollar business, you don't get to, you don't have the luxury of choosing to live your life a certain way if you want to. It's like everything, there are just a lot of costs, you know, to be that successful. And I think some, for some people, that's fine. It's like, you know, you, your priority is to, you know, be really rich and famous, which I think for some people it is. And I think that's totally

fine. Then great. But like, for me, um, you just money and fame has never been, has never been like, a motivating factor for me. So it just doesn't make sense for me to be in a relationship like that again because I understand what the costs are and I'm so happy not in a relationship like that that I think it's, you know, why go there again? My final question to you is what advice would you give to the little devils or listeners on what to do to cope with your hell? So like when you're really in that dark place and you want to find light, what advice do you have for people? I have a lot of thoughts on this. I'll try to narrow it down.

I think, first of all, getting exercise is really important. I think that, so essentially taking care of yourself. And I know it can be hard to disconnect from your phone or, you know, whatever way you're spying on the person that you shouldn't be, whatever it is, you know, like, whatever is getting into your head, I think you've got to really try to distract yourself from it, whether it's through meditation or getting exercise, reading a book, just kind of separate yourself as much as you can. And also, I think leaning on friends and family is really helpful.

Like, you should have a group of, a core group of people that you feel comfortable going to to talk through your problems. Because sometimes just getting it out, even if the person can't give you good advice, like just getting it out helps, you know, talking about it. But yeah, I think just, you know, working on bettering yourself so that you feel really strong on your own and you feel good about yourself is like the main key. Caitlin, you are the fucking best. I feel so lucky to have met you.

And you're so down to earth, vulnerable, open, considering all this crazy shit you've been through. And I think if you guys enjoy this episode, you have to listen to our episode of The Bright Side. And where can people kind of follow you or kind of stay up on what you're doing? Yeah. So, I mean, my personal Instagram is just at Caitlin, which is K-A-I-T-L-Y-N-N. And then my podcast is The Bright Side. and it's on iTunes, Spotify, anywhere. You listen to your podcast.

And the Instagram for that is the Brightside podcast. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming to hell. And I'll talk to all you guys later. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.