Berner Phone - Kate Kennedy: Building A Doormat Empire & Not Being A Doormat

Episode Date: January 22, 2020

Kate built multiple businesses from nothing even though she didn’t actually want to be an entrepreneur. She explains to Hannah how her idea went viral, why she hates self help gurus, getting depressed after following her dream, why corporate america rejected her, how she wrote her first book, when to actually listen to other people’s opinions of your business, why she was always friend zoned, how she met her husband at a bar, overcoming trust issues, why she is struggling with the idea of becoming a mom, and how past life regressions can explain the root of anxiety.--- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/appSupport this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berninginhell/support Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I've just never been that girl who's like cute and fun and squeaky and like I don't even like woo at a concert like I'm just not like a what like I'm just not like do like silly photos when someone's like okay now a silly one that's when I like do something really ugly and then I was like Hannah you ruined it and I'm like I thought we were being silly yeah and their silly is like from like smile's like their silly's adorable little tongue out and I'm like I'm the grim reaper Welcome to Burning Hell. You guys, welcome to hell.

We just did a rosé cheers because we're having fun today. We have a fascinating individual, Kate Kennedy, who I didn't know. She was just in my internet ether. My internet. How old am I? But like on Instagram, she would just pop up. And I was like, the universe wants me to meet her. And I think you reposted a tweet that said, if you're on a dating app, just FYI,

liking the office is not a personality trait. And then I was like, well, got her. Let's do this. Got her. And I said, we're doing a pod swap for one. And she's like, yeah, I'm here next week. So that is how this relationship started. Thank you for coming.

Thank you for having me. I love how we just like expedited things too. I'm into that style. Like, hey, you want to swap? Yep, let's do it. It's like, if we're fucking, we're fucking. Let's do it. And like, I don't, you know, you don't need to send somebody a full email

pitch of why you'd add value to their episode it's like let's just do this i also know i just know yeah i knew about you oh my gosh i'm so flattered i yeah i didn't even we didn't have it back and forth i probably you should have checked on me that's pretty creepy of me i go you're coming on and she was like okay i could have been kidnapping you like and it's like kind of weird on both ends because i'm like yeah i like know we're really well like now i watch like seeing you on tv like i probably so i just did um kate kennedy's podcast be there in five the episode's probably out by now if not it will be um i had so much fun am i different than what you thought i'd be yeah i think i thought i always assume people i'm very easily intimidated by women funny women successful women i feel like i've had one too many experiences

where i felt written off by people that probably didn't think i was their level and um and we talked about this on your episode like i think i'm so amazed by in this industry specifically how many like kind, normal, supportive, funny, cool women there are that aren't like sizing you up relative to them. And I think in my previous like corporate experience and like the influence around all your, all that's being, all that happens is you're sized up based on like your relative importance or following your influence. And it just is so terrible. I recently just had epiphany where I'm like, I just want to surround myself with like the coolest people. I don't mean like the richest or the most successful or the most famous, just like people who are cool. And I was

reading your bio and it really just kind of blew me away in just like the different things you've done can you give us a little because I can do it but I feel like you'll do it better ever since like I was a kid and I like watch movies with like women wearing glasses and pencil skirts in the big city I was like that's my vibe like I'm into that like I wanted to be like in the corporate world which is funny because everyone's like a soul sucking but like I had a great time yeah um I yeah right after college and you're in Chicago I'm in Chicago now um I went to call I went to Virginia Tech I moved to New York after college. And then I was in this amazing, like, program, marketing, rotational program

where my company moved me from New York to Chicago to San Francisco and then told me to pick. Wow. Yeah. And I ended up going with Chicago because when you pay New York rent and then see what that can get you in Chicago and you're that young and you're not really making it. I was worried like I wouldn't make it here. Yeah, we just accept it. We're like, oh, 80% of my income goes to rent and the rest is, like, that 30% should go to taxes. We don't have that.

80%. You're sorry. And what's so funny about even starting out my journey with real estate in New York is that I still have the mindset of like when I walk into somebody's home, my instinct is to like ask them how much they pay and rent because that's acceptable in New York. That's all we do. But like apparently in America, if you like ask somebody their mortgage, that's inappropriate. People talk about it just as like, what do you have for breakfast?

How much is your rent? Is it, do the real wall? Do you have a fake wall? Yes. I had a one bed that we made into it. three-bed in Murray Hill across from the brother Jimmy's where I belong. I was in Murray Hill for a while too. Yeah. And it's so honestly I loved it. I had the best time. I worked at like a big market research company. I don't know. I was there for like six or seven years. I was like a basically

marketing and advertising consultant for advertising effectiveness, which is a bunch of jargon. And then I was a Six Sigma black belt, which isn't karate. It's like a corporate term for a person that does business process improvement. And I did like a month of training in Florida. You're fucking nerdy. And I'm like turned on right now. Um, honestly, like, it was such a cool experience. And I, when I switched jobs to that business process, improvement job, at the same time, I was, like, paralyzed with fear that, um, I, like, I'm very forgetful. I'm very tight B. And I was always leaving my curling iron on. And I was walking out of the house one day. And I was like, I'm so tired of, like, turning around to see

if it's off. Like, I had it posted on my door. I looked down on my dormant. I'm like, this is kind of a canvas. Like, what if I just took a welcome mat? And instead of using it to welcome me in my home, like, I live here. It should be used to see me on my way out and remind me of stuff because I'm so forgetful. So I put turn off your curling iron on a doormat. And this is where like, I painted it. Like no one paints carpets. It's like kind of weird.

It kind of doesn't work. But I did it like as a fun DIY. I put, like my friends thought it was funny. I put them on Etsy. But when I say that I put a prototype of like a photo of one I made, I hadn't made them. But like I was trying to take this like minimum viable product approach of, you know, demand driven first. Like if somebody wants it, then I build a supply chain.

I love how you're wording. that because so many people are like, I had a weird dream. And I was like, if I put this popcorn that's all the glimphrey up, then we'll see who connects over veganism. And you're like, okay, this is the supply chain. Did you want to be an entrepreneur? No. You just were like, well, this is a really good idea, so I have to take advantage of it. Yeah. And I think it's kind of what we talked about earlier. My entire childhood, I was like painting and drawing and doing lettering and writing poems and doing all this creative stuff that I just stopped like high school sports and then college and then there's no path in life where people are like talk about how they pursue their side passions without making

money from them like no one cares like also like you still have those passions that you were as a kid it just is super suppressed yeah like you don't hate painting now you just don't do it which is really sad it is sad and I think that like I was so good at my corporate job because I was like blowing people's minds with like PowerPoint. I was like building slide transitions and people were like damn because like I had no avenue for my creativity. Yeah. And then I think that I reached a point where I was hitting a bit of a ceiling and I and I know everyone says this and I needed a creative outlet and I was just trying to pursue things. Are the sound effects necessary? I don't know but I liked it. Yeah. I enjoyed it. I left the room happy. Exactly. And yeah so the I put one on Etsy. This is where meme culture comes in. This is 2015.

Wow. This is recent. Yeah. It's not that. I'm going to go four or five years. We're kind of in that same level where it was two years ago that I started Betches. Like we started our creative journeys the same time. Yeah. Which is fun. I love that. And not late in life. I'm a few years older than you, but like it's like, yeah, it's after the point where you kind of

already thought you decided who you were, what you were going to do with your life, but to then make an inadvertent pivot. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't like you went to Thailand and was like, I need to figure out what my purpose is. You kind of like, and you didn't even hate your corporate job. No. That's the weird thing is.

I wasn't trying to leave it. I basically put the rug on Etsy. I pin it, I put it on Pinterest with like, I literally copy and paste every single popular tag at the time in the caption. Yeah. Just so like, you know, my own makeshift SEO. And then a radio station in Australia finds the mat, makes it into a meme. It's just a turn off your straightener mat photo. And he puts in that block letter, letterage. Any girls need this. I was like, not even funny. I woke up one day and I had like 12 up that I had never made them like they were just fake that they were sold out I was flooded with messages I get on Facebook it got over 100,000 likes in a night in Australia and another 150 in New Zealand I didn't even ship there I had to find a way to ship there

I was like we're doing this and that's I think like what why it worked when we were talking earlier about how when you come from a place of scarcity, it's hard to find abundance because your mindset is almost on this. It's the desperation doesn't always yield what you need it to because there's so much pressure on it. This was so off the cuff in random that I swear it worked and not that this is a business strategy, but rather an argument for don't quit your job before you start your business. If you don't have the hustle to make it work after work because you care that much, you're never going to have the motivation to like get yourself up and work hard every day. A hundred percent. And did you enjoy painting them? I did it first. My mom and I painted like

the first thousand out of our living rooms. Yeah. And then I, I mean, then I go through this whole process. I find a manufacturer. I start doing wholesale. They sell in Nordstrom and one wayfair. And I get to a point after two, so a year and a half-ish and I had to leave my corporate job. I didn't want to. What was bringing you more joy? The potential of the mats were bringing me more joy. The thing that I always try to explain to people is, you know, people like, you know, you found your passion. Like, I feel like at parties, I get cornered and people want to talk to me about like, how did you follow your passion? I'm like, dormats aren't my passion. Well, there's a name for them, right? What do you call? Remind dormats. Remind dormats. It's

amazing. My passion is all the small tasks that are comprised making dormats. Yes. Preach. We talked about this on your podcast, but it's about like you're doing it for the journey. There wasn't a results oriented part of it. You did it because you're like, oh, this is fun, this is fun, that is fun. We didn't like podcasting. Right. But we just wanted to chart. That doesn't work. Or just wanted a revenue stream. That doesn't work. So it's, it's great that it's like, it's not about finding your career. It's about finding the little things you like to do. And when you're good at something and you enjoy it, you find a way to make it work. 100%. And also don't quit your job just to tell people you're an entrepreneur I have such an issue with all of these like online coaches

and self-help authors like the rachel hollis is of the world that are just like hit your wagon to a star I'm like yeah but also like maybe don't go into immense credit card debt and put your job and put your family in jeopardy to follow some pipe dream that you probably won't be able to accomplish also like don't follow a pipe dream just because you you think that's like cool to do or like it's aspirational it's like some people look up to instagram bloggers some people look up to like Instagram entrepreneurs. It's do something you actually like to do day to day. That is 100%. And that's something I don't think about or say enough, but you're absolutely right. If you go, I don't think you should want to be an entrepreneur. It needs to be idea based.

Yeah. And you turn into one. You're so right. And I think that that's what happened. And I don't, I actually think I'm kind of a shitty entrepreneur, if I'm honest. Like, it's not my set of strengths, but it was such, I have the, the personal growth in that time of trying to build that out and handling the pressure, handling both jobs, leaving my job, taking the risk, building this empire, only to ultimately two years in be like, I don't want this. I was like, I don't want to run a rug empire. This is not what I want for me. You're like, rug queen just doesn't roll off the tongue. Yeah. And it was getting to the point where everywhere I'd go and like, you know, going to weddings and like parties and stuff. You were like, oh my God, your mats. Or like,

you know, I feel like they don't always focus on these mats and like, yeah, that is what the idea was. You just felt more than that. I felt more than that. And I felt like the business person in me was more of that. And I was, and I wanted, you know, and I got to a place when I didn't really want to be doing the mats anymore because I felt, A, I was rampantly copied and it was a problem. I had to protect a lot of my IP. A lot of my job became insufferable realizations of people under cutting me with price and shipping time and them getting all the business. And it was just, you know, it was, it ate at my soul.

And I really think that you can't prevent people from copying your ideas all you. can do is be the first to innovate and first to market and rinse repeat. And spending all your time trying to make sure other people aren't copying your shit is just taking energy away from the new things you could be doing. So I just kind of cut, I slowly kind of backed out. I tried to figure out like, okay, I scaled it down a little bit and then I was like, what now? And I was like, I'm just going to go back into a corporate job and do the mats on the side. I always said I was like taking a break to like get the business to run. I couldn't get a job. All of a sudden, I felt like I conquered the world and I set up this entire business by myself with no funding and yet I was being told that

like you know account executive jobs at like digital marketing agencies like I wasn't qualified for and because you had a break because I like yeah like they're not interested you had a baby oh right yeah like Jesus oh my and like that's the that's what's so hard about the the job world the career world is is you know I guess similar to making decisions about your future yes 100 100% and like there was so much more than to who I was that wasn't getting seen and I just realized I had no choice. And so I get back into the rugs and whatnot. And then I kind of like get to and I'm kind of in like a really dark place at this time. Like there's no I'm a person that can't feel stuck. I have to have progress. I have to have purpose. And I was just like what am I doing? Yeah. Stagnancy is my biggest like fear. And if you let yourself get too deep into it, then I'll just get really depressed. And then I then I'm digging myself out of two things. And like. And the tough part two was like, I wanted to do more with my career, but when you're not something by trade, it's hard to call yourself it. Like, I wanted to write.

I'm not a writer. I wanted to, you know, have a podcast or whatever. I'm not a host. I want to do all these things. And I was like so down about how I wasn't those things. But like the only person who can make that call is me. Yeah. And also, everyone who does it wasn't those things at one point.

How could you be? This job didn't exist 10 years ago. Also, was I a reality TV star before? true right i was just me and nowadays there's this incredible opportunity for people who have unique personalities or aren't afraid of putting themselves out there to you know monetize themselves in some way and like i almost feel like yeah i would just put it here to say some stuff that other people are afraid of saying well i think it found you like i think that's such a dumb Pinterest quote of like stop trying to like find yourself like create yourself or like your

passion kind of finds you if you do enough small efforts and inject enough joy in your life where you'll find yourself in a place where you're doing the right thing. And it's just not always obvious. So you just have to stay in motion until it presents itself. So you've done everything, like something incredible that a lot of listeners that probably wanted to do. They, you were successful. Corporate America reproved to your parents that you're a success. Then you quit your job and have a successful company, which majority of people, it's impossible to get past the first six months of their own company. And you're depressed. Exactly. Where do you go from there? Okay. So that's an interesting.

thing too. I was this like poster child for following a dream and I was more miserable than the most miserable person in their corporate job. Yeah like people probably looking at your Instagram all the time like I feel like I could be her and like make wrong. Yes. And like weirdly it wore on me that everywhere I went people were like oh my like they were really romanticizing it and I was just like romanticizing it. I felt bad I couldn't say I felt bad wrecking their dream of that perception if they wanted to like follow their passion. It's kind of like dating the like guy on the football team everyone thinks is hot and then like when you're alone with him you're like he's really dumb and boring yeah yeah right this isn't what i thought it was but it and then you want to tell people he sucks

right that's a great analogy i hate when hot guys suck most of them do they do they really do you need to find an ugly hot guy um so what do you do when you're not feeling motivated you're feeling stagnant yeah what's your next step i kind of like i mean this was there was probably like a year a year long period where I really felt stuck and didn't know what to do and I was like grabbing its straws just doing small things and really the the only thing I could do is say like okay I feel so stuck and I see I like looked into the future and I saw black like I saw nothing I was like I can't work in rugs I can't get a corporate job anything I do from here on out I have to make out of thin air and that pressure too without income is just like was really weighed on me and

And I think that like, intellectually I knew, okay, the first step is that I need to make people follow me and be attached to me and whatever I make and not my rugs. Were you collecting emails at the time? No. I was, I was doing nothing relative to like my persona. It was like my account was about the mats. Everything, all my interviews were about the mats. I was like, how do I shift this to be about me?

But then you're like depressed and you're like, I'm the worst. Like, who am I? Why would anybody care what I have to say? Yeah. And so it's this weird thing. of like intellectually trying to dig yourself out. I'm a depressed, sad, lonely person right now with no purpose. Why am people going to follow me? Yes, exactly. And I always, I think life is a forever battle between. I think we all in the back of our head or call it head and heart,

whatever, there's a weird part of you that knows at a high level, like you're capable and you can do it and you actually are really good at stuff and you see great results. Then there's the noise and the emotional turmoil that's always trying to pull you away from that. And I think even when I am depressed, I still can like have a small glimmer of my track. record and I still knew I'd get there and I had something pulling me and if anything the worst it gets sometimes I get a little bit more motivated because then you have nothing to lose. Yeah. And I throughout. Rock bottom, baby. Yeah. And throughout. Bounce right back up. You got to hit bottom and bounce up. Exactly. And throughout life,

I think like whenever I've been in a really tough place, I've done things creatively. I've always like journaled. Like I'm that person. Like I get in a fight with my boyfriend and I'm like, you know, I'd pull out my easel. Yeah. When they're, I mean, the blue ton, whatever. Okay, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. A painter. Bango. Bob Ross. I tried to just like do a history reference and I was like, yeah, we're not doing that. Okay, moving.

Cut it out, Nancy. One of my favorite things to do is recommend podcasts I love to you guys. And I have a good one. If you enjoy Burning in Hell, I think you're going to love the self-helpless podcast. I went on this podcast a couple months ago when I visited L.A. And it's three of my favorite type A comedians. Taylor Tomlinson, Kelsey Cook, Delaney Fisher, holy crap, candidly dive into all things, self-improvement. They cover everything from anxiety to feng shui to masturbation.

It's completely uncensored, and they often have special guests and health experts on the show to drop some serious knowledge. Find self-helpless wherever you listen to podcast, and you can visit self-helplesspodcast.com for all other information, and definitely check out the episode that I was on on their podcast. Thanks, guys. If you need a sign from the universe to start your own podcast, this is your sign. Burning in Hell has been around for three years and I started it with Anchor and I'm still with Anchor. It's free and Anchor by Spotify is the easiest way to make a podcast with everything you need all

in one place. You can record and edit your pod right from your phone or computer and when you host on Anchor, it distributes your podcast to listening platforms like Spotify, Apple Podcast and more. Everything you need in one place, completely free. Anchor app or go to anchor.fm to get started. Tell me what podcast you start. And just remember, if you feel like it's your purpose to start a podcast, you do it. I believe in you. Anchor.fm. Long story short, I, well, a couple things happen. One is I was like, what at the most basic level is like me at my core, at my soul, what do I love? And what I've done my entire life is written,

I've written people's speeches and more often than not, I write people's rhyming speeches. And I've written poetry since I was like four. I have like stacks and stacks of poems. Like it's just this weird schick I always had that people knew about me when I was very young that went away for about 10 to 15 years. Never the skill was still there. And I was like if I could do anything in the world like the, my inner child wants to be an author. I want to be a writer. Um, and my biggest hang up at the time is kind of what we talked about at the beginning of this episode. I was trying to get in a network with other self-employed people and influencers because I think it's helpful when you're around people in your field. Nobody would talk to me. I was like,

like a, I was like a weird rug maker with 15,000 followers. And I was just, I don't know, I felt so unimportant, which is even worse at that time. And I hated social media and I hated everything it represented. And at the time when you're low, that's when that comparison kicks in. And you're just like, how are you going to so many meetings? Like, you know, bloggers are always like, meetings, meetings, meetings. They're just in the Uber going, going to meeting. I'm like, who's meeting with you to call them?

You're like, I don't have time to go on meetings. Like some napping. But anyway. Right. I was like just jealous of all these meetings. I was jealous of everyone. And also the fact that they don't want to like be your friend, you're like, oh, do I suck?

Oh, yeah. Like I must suck if everyone is deciding not wanting to be my friend. Well, and entrepreneurship really puts you in isolation or it did for me. And for me to be able to work that hard and focus that much, I can't, I can't socialize. And I always tell people that want to be an entrepreneur, you have, you can't have phomo. You can't want to be social. No.

You have to give up everything, kind of. And I was okay with that, but a lot of people wouldn't be. It's funny. I went on Taylor Strecker's podcast yesterday, and she goes, okay, if right now you couldn't do entertainment, what would you do? And I was like, can we talk about when I'm retired? And she goes, no, like right now. And I like, I never cannot think of something to say. And I couldn't think of anything.

And she goes, that's the right answer. Whoa. That you literally can't even imagine doing anything else. You, the fact that you stopped and you were like, what did I like to do as a child? That's the moment of why you're successful. It's not like the marketing strategies or like the social media knowledge. It's that you had the creative mind to think outside the box and go back into your past. Right.

Like we're all just stunted by how, by our own brain's creativity. Yeah, 100%. If you can't think it, you can do it. I think a lot of people are stunted to even imagine, like how you were like, could I, could I write? A lot of people would just be like, yeah, I can't. You literally like, I guess I could. Yeah, right, exactly.

If you can think it, you can do it. It's your own brain stopping you. So you think about how you love to write. Yeah. And what happens? So when I'm like in a bad mood or bad place or whatever, like I think I'm like really good at talking shit. Like I get a lot of like, like I'll make fun of things. Not even two people, but to me or like I'll write them or I'll kind of like.

my love language. Yeah, completely make fun of stuff. And I was like, I like randomly one day, I like thought about it in the shower. And I was like, you know what's funny is that like people write books about, you know, being a fighter, fire lawyer, astronaut, doctor. How would a parent explain to their kid being an influencer? Like this is a new job as the last 10 years. Like how would that, what would that book look like?

I write a poem and I call it Swinkle Trinkle Social Media Star. And it's like a 70-line poem just ripping apart influencers. and I combed it down a smidge and check out the F bombs I like literally Google how do you pitch a book to publishers like I think people are so funny when they talk about their journey

they're like you know I just you know right place right time lot of luck like little creativity I'm like no I googled it like anybody can publish a book or you'll be like I just I wrote this book and I knew the right person who put it in the hands of the right guy just fucking Google it you don't have to wait for someone else to like discover you a hundred percent and that was part of like my show last night is i try to tell some of these stories in a comedic way because i all if anything all i care about is that people stop thinking you need um connections and need a certain amount of like money or time or this

or that because like there's just so much that comes from like honest effort that like all the waiting for all this external stuff that it's just like it's not how it works. There also isn't an answer if there's an answer of like the right person to connect to or a book to read like there's no answer to success. There's also sometimes like in the comedy world because it is entertainment. You have to like, you do get some breaks. Some people will be like, I'm just not getting any chances. I was talking with Eshal Hustlatan and I was like, yeah, we just make that like we just, we create our own show. Like I'm my own show at the stand now because I wasn't getting booked on something. Yeah, your own chance. Or you start your own podcast if you're not getting booked on other people's podcast. Yeah. Now they're

begging to go on your podcast. Like you can create something from nothing. Like honestly that like gives me orgasms. Thinking about creating something from nothing. No, truly. like last night when I was on stage I was like I need you to know that like with no money no connections a job I hated and like just black ahead of me all of this whatever this is now I created when I by myself at night when I couldn't sleep from my home from my computer and my phone like all of this is built from just that and like that's crazy like that anybody in their house from their phone can but also I would argue you when you were alone with your computer feeling sad you were your goal was not to be at carolines no that's where people are wrong people will like see

something and be like i want to be like hannah i want to be on tv but i can never get in with that group or or connect with those people it's like no no no you don't just try to do that you go step by step in your ways and like right now you're like hanging out with the most popular female podcasters and comedians in the city last night yeah it was crazy that's fucking crazy but that wasn't your goal your goal is doing what you enjoy and that was their goals too right right i know and that's kind of the common thread and the people that we probably don't vibe with are the ones that have this like end game in mind and are going with everyone else's process to get their cutthroat and it's like it's just it doesn't have to look like that certain people can sense in authenticity and also the end goal

feels good for three seconds like and then i'd just be on to the next thing yeah after like after carolins you probably had so much fun and then today you're like okay so how many more do we want to do like how do I make that better? Yeah, right. And that's just because that's how we are. A hundred percent. It's a self-sabotaging cycle of the ambitious. You raise your own bar.

And that's why people that are successful raise their own bar and there's a lot of misery that comes along with that level. Oh, yeah. And I think that, yeah, like, so when I shopped around like this, yeah, okay, I shop around the book and then this, I'd send it to like so many different publishers. I read how, like, there's a way you do a book proposal, a proper way that looks professional. every publisher needs different. Your subject line has to be written this way or they won't read it.

It has to be in the body, no attachment. They won't read it. Everyone makes it. So it takes hours and hours and hours. And this is the other thing. It was annoying. And I could have just not done it because like there was no way it was going to happen. But basically what happened is that I sent it to a ton of people a few months past.

People passed on it. It didn't matter. Whatever. I, there was like one passing day in February. It was like a snow day. I was like, I'm just going to like look up. a couple. Like, I really think this is funny. This is a good idea. I'll send it to a couple more. I send it to an indie publisher within 24 hours. They're like, like, call me. And then, like,

it, like, goes from there. And in two weeks, like, I have a contract for, like, a book deal. And, like, I'm not a writer. I'm not an author. I'm just a person who writes poems in, like, the dark. And they, like, really liked the concept. And the way I pitched it was basically, like, if the illustration should be, like, what if nursery rhyme characters at Instagram accounts? So, like, does little Bo Peep have a go-fund meat for her lost sheep? Does little Miss Muffet sell curds and weigh protein? Like, does, like, Mary had a little scams in an MLM. Like, there was all these, like, characters in it, like, it's kind of like, once you have the right idea, the idea, you know how like it takes forever to, like, be creative?

But once you're there, it's just, like, you couldn't have more ideas. It's like being in alignment with an idea. Yes, that flow. So who is the demographic? So the demo, this was hard. because they wanted influencers to love it and I was like it's making fun of them but then I realized

A, I toned it down a lot but B I wanted it to be like the person in a gift shop who didn't know what to get who like probably doesn't have kids yet or whatever who's like going to a baby shower and it's like what do I buy like oh this is funny my pregnant friend watches The Bachelor and hates how they all sell fit teas

and like foam mattresses and like I kind of that's why I positioned it I was like this isn't this isn't or the person that's going to read it, my target demo is the person that's gifting it. And so it's a woman, you know, 18 to 34, most likely, or 18 to 49, and they are buying a present

and they want something that's different and quirky and specific. And we're in this, like, meme culture where, like, that people are giving humorous gifts and that's a big part of why I'd be there in five took off because it was almost an irreverent gift to give your forgetful friend. And I was like, I want this to be an irreverent book that is saying all the things that no one's saying to that, kind of making fun of influences in like a formal format. But it ended up, I ended up getting further into like kind of the world of influence too. And I get it also. Like it actually ended up

not being mean at all, but rather just kind of calling it what it is. Like it's just kind of a ridiculous. It's ridiculous in the context of teaching a child like what you could be, what this vocation is. Yeah. So anyways. It sounds like a lot of the hate came out of it. Like there wasn't hate in it. Well, what I realized is the hate was where I was at the time. It had nothing to do with the influencers and everything to do with me. And as the book pulled me out of that dark place, I was able to pull the darkness from the poem and make it something that was more poignant. And the book ends with the thing I needed to hear the most at the time, which is twinkle-trinkle social media star. There's so much more to who you are. Because it kind of has a twist ending where the mom was

kidding the whole time. But when you're reading it, she sounds sincere. And yeah, so anyways, it was kind of this really, for lack of a better term, poetic process of me needing to vent, me venting through an artistic medium, taking a chance and trying to figure out how to make it work, and then ultimately giving me legitimacy I could have never dreamed of. Like, it's hard to get published. And like, it was a really big dream of mine. And like, is it my biggest source of income? No. But like, I hope to write more books. I hope if it pulled me out. Where is it so? right now um amazon barns noble like wherever books are sold basically is what i'm supposed to say yeah so that came out uh last november uh exactly a year from when i wrote it it's kind of like a quick

turnaround um and yeah i always joke like i love the musical hamilton and he always talks about how he wrote his way out and i'm like i wrote my way out like i i had no choice and that's all i could do and i think i needed some sort of third party validation like being published to feel like but um i also think when you're that rock bottom, you only can be honest with yourself at that point. You're like, okay, you want to keep lying to yourself? Or like, how do we really feel right now? Yeah. It sounds like you're actually really in touch with some of your creative emotions. Yeah. I was able to channel it. And I don't, to be fair, I don't all, I don't think, you know, whenever people tell stories of depression and explain them relative to their high levels of output during that time or how it ended up

being a good thing. I also always want to be clear that like 99% of the time I don't have that lucidity. You know, like it's a lot, it takes, you know, 29 days of getting nothing done in one day of clarity. But what I always tell people, you have to ride the wave. My best tweets are when I can't fall asleep and I just start like, I'm just in my own head. And I get a little dark and then like, but is that funny? Right. That's how most like my whole concept of like, do I like or is you just tall is based on the fact that like I have trouble getting in touch with my emotions and knowing if I really like a guy. Yeah.

And then you realize that, wait, we're not alone in this. There's so many other girls trying to go to sleep at night thinking the same thing. 100%. And I think like people, it's when you have an idea or you're like, that's funny, it's so easy to pass on by it, but I write everything down now. And whenever I have a passing moment of creativity, you have to write it because you can say you have somewhere to be or that you. need to get some sleep or whatever, but those are moments you can't manufacture that have

given me the best things of my life when I've just sat down and been like, I got to work this idea out. Yeah, but I also, I would, the way I am is I can't sit down and be like, okay, when you think of that new idea. Like I'm more like, I live my life and then when I get inspired and I feel like creative rush, then I'm hyperproductive for that time. But it's like, it's weird. Like I'm super lazy because I'm, and I know I should edit something, but I'm like, if I'm

don't feel inspired to, it'll be shit and it'll take me longer. But when I'm inspired, like, I work like a crazy person. I know. It's a very hard way to be. I'm the same way. It makes, it makes you look inconsistent because I'll promise a lot of things that I don't deliver until I'm inspired to do it. Yeah. Or, like, not like contractually, but I mean, like, I'm like, I'm going to do a Gilmore Girls deep dive. And like, until I actually, like, into watching it one day, I won't do it. But yeah, so it's, I don't know. I just think that, um, I, I don't want, like, people that are suffering from anything, you know, mental health-wise, to feel like I need to be Picasso. Like, it's more, it's not about art or creativity or your depression making you better

at something. It's about being at a place where you have no choice, but to choose the thing that just fundamentally brings you joy, independent of anything else. And for me, it's like writing, drawing, doodling. I feel like if you were, um, at your corporate job, you would never be forced to dig that deep to be like, what is some absurd shit that I really wanted? do I know a hundred percent like I that do you tell your ideas to people because I feel like that's something that like a friend would laugh at they'd be like okay Matt girl you want to write a book now it's come it down like I could just see people judging you how do you keep that like belief in yourself so this is something I talk about this often and I it's met with um different responses

but I I believe that the most important thing anybody who wants to do so something creative or entrepreneurial should do is not use the people in their immediate life as some adequate cross-section of their potential, of their success. Because if your mom and sister and brother and boyfriend aren't your target market, their opinion literally means nothing. And also they are kind of too invested in you, I think to give you a logical response. Right. And I think like this is a medium, especially podcasting where like you can't worry about it. It is embarrassing. I'm saying things on here. I wouldn't tell my mom. to her face, but I'm telling thousands of people.

And that's kind of the beauty of it. Also, a lot of our moms and dads don't even understand what a podcast is. Right. I know. And like when mine started listening, it was a journey. It was a journey. But I actually like, I, my husband is blocked for my Instagram stories. And I do that because he's not my target market.

And if he's coming home being like, do people really care like that Stormy Webster's wardrobe is more than your net worth? And I'm like, yes. Like, you're not my person. But it's also weird because it is your. job, your Instagram stories. So it's like you're not watching his emails, emailing about boring shit and whatever he does, because you would judge him in that.

And you're like, I know exactly. Before we get into your husband, because I'm interested, I want to say one thing that fascinates me about you is that you're able to see, like, potential demographics that other people might not see. Like, not to make a tennis reference, but people say, like, Roger Federer sees the court in, like, so many different angles than, like, the average person would. Where, like, you saying that you thought of a product of, like, you're really good at seeing parts of people's lives that other people might not see, like, everyone leaves and, like, might forget something. Yeah.

But no one would be like that could sell thousands of stuff, but you're like, but think about it. Or even, like, how many people go to buy a present? And they don't want to buy something logical. They want to buy something that's their personality and show something off. It's so niche and little. And I actually, I would never think of that, like, detail-orientedness of a, you know. a person's experience. You would though because you're observational. Anybody that's funny is highly observational. And I think that a lot of my things that have worked for me in business is

because I'll pick up on what, and this is the entire premise of my podcast, is that I'll notice the things that I'm talking to my friends about in daily life, the things I'm reading and I care about versus what like the mainstream media is telling me like millennial women care about. And I'm like, I don't care about any of that. We're talking about like, you know, these really specific things. And I noticed at the time that there was this shift from the kind of austerity of aspiration of the early 2010s. The currency was turning to relatability. And people loved being like, I'm so quirky. I'm so weird. I'm so messy. Fries before guys. Yeah, exactly. We're like, wait, you like fries more than guys too? I remember a guy friend was like, I don't know

what this big thing is with like girls loving fast food. I'm like, I think they've always loved fast food. Like I'd rather beating tacos. Yeah. Enough with the tacos ladies. We're good. One thing saying you like pizza on a dating up that's not a personality trait either no we've got to stop thinking we're so irreverent and wild by admitting we like junk food because you're making the problem worse it's not irreverent it's normal so during this whole incredible career journey when did you meet your husband okay i met him in new york city 10 years ago today in marie hill uh at a country western bar on the lower east side oh my god and we have like we weren't we were more serious toward the latter part of our relationship, but I met him, and that's a big reason why I did

the Caroline show last night, because I was doing it, like, to recap the decade, and I was like, I rang in the last decade in New York, and this is the day my life changed. And I kind of, like, I like him into stuff like that. And, um, I love the circularity of it all. And, uh, that's a word. I think it is. Okay. Um, and the, yeah, so my friend, like, dragged me out and, uh, we went to this country Western bar. I think women on mechanical balls are very funny because I think they're very hot. Yeah. When they're, like, drunk and they're just like, you know, body rolling.

You could die at any second. Yeah. It's just, like, disgusting. It always starts with my friend dragged me out. You never want to go out the night you meet your husband, I feel like. I know. And it's funny because I feel like that is a thing you could say to add some flair to the story. Like, I almost didn't go.

I literally, like, had a stomach ache and was like, I'm blown in. And I'm like, no, and you're right. And I need to clarify that because I, uh, I actually didn't. want to go out because I had just seen Nancy Myers, it's complicated, a fine film. I love all of her movies. And I was like, I'm good. That was a great movie. I'm in for the night. And literally, like, I wasn't dying to go to a country Western Bar, but somebody was having a birthday, whatever. We were by the bull. My friend and I were like ripping people to shreds. He walks by and is like, oh, so you guys are in line? Because I think he heard us say something

like pretty harsh. Like, like, obviously we weren't in line. So it was kind of like casually. It wasn't like hitting on either one of us. We just started talking. Long story short, my friend is hilarious and awesome and does crazy things and at the time we were eating so much artichoke pizza and there was a 45 minute line and so she starts to no joke date a guy behind the counter and we so we skipped the line on weekends she like didn't like him he was like 19 that's hilarious so we are like oh my god I love artichoke the line so long we're like well no we have an end you want to come and so he comes to the pizza place and we walk most new york story i've ever heard Yeah, no, we make out in the cab on the way to the pizza place, and then...

What was the drunk level? Like, I can see the visual, but I can't hear the audio. Okay, okay. You know what I mean? Like, I never remember what I said, but I can see slides. Yes. Yeah, the lights are on, but you're not all the way there. Yeah, exactly.

And so then we get pizza. We walk home, like, in the middle of January, and he comes into my apartment, but I'm, like, on high alert for, like, date line situations. Like, I thought he was going to murder me. So for some reason I thought the hallway had less murder potential. So we sat in my hallway for, like, four hours. And we talked to, like, five or six a.m. And then I was like, yep, guy, you got to go home.

Bye, like, I'm not doing this. What did you like about him that first night? It's hard to, like, okay, I felt like I had seen him before, but I'd never had were a little complete strangers. And, like, you know, sometimes somebody's familiar to you. He was very familiar to me. I didn't know why, or I didn't know if I was drunk. I know, and I, that's like, a cheesy thing, but, like, I don't,

know how to better articulate it than like there's a familiarity i am obsessed with past life regression oh my god i heard the story about past life forget so so you like you felt like you kind of knew him at what point did you ever think like i'm crazy like if i hit off with someone i'm like okay we're getting married um did you have that thought at all or were you kind of like he's cute whatever no i didn't i it we were the thing of that was most important we had incredible chemistry like we were very different people but there there's like a magnetism the inside of me that's just so drawn to him. And, and I think that, like, that is to me what now I was realizing I hadn't had before is that there's not as much need for negotiating,

rationalizing, explaining when you're just like, I want to be around this person, all things considered. Like, whether you're doing something like on the Bacheloret or you're just like waking up and too tired to get out of bed. Right. And like, honestly, the only conversation I really remember from that night is he made a xenon girl of the 21st century reference, which I really appreciated. He has three sisters. And so he like knew, he reluctantly knew about a lot of this stuff I liked from having three sisters. And also I, on our walk home, I was like, can you guess my last name as one of the presidents? Um, it's, it's Kennedy pretty easy. And he just like goes into like, okay, um, Millard Fillmore, Grover, Cleveland, brother of Bird

B. Hayes, James K. Palk. He names every random ass president there. And I'm like, oh my God, civics humor. Humor is like, you know, I like, I like that kind of like intellectual stupid humor. And I was just very attracted to him in that moment. And anyway, yeah, so, like, it was kind of casual at first. But the biggest thing for me, like, literally the day before I had just had a horrible situation with a guy had been dating, I, anyways, that's a whole different story. And I just had never had a positive dating experience. I had never had a serious boyfriend.

I was everybody's friend. I was always friends on. I was always getting cheated on. It was all these things were like, I was at a point where I was like, who I am is a person that people don't like or don't want to commit to. and um you were not in the greatest confidence place god no could not be worse because people are always like you'll find love when you love yourself no no oh my god i like i don't like maybe happened in march for me you're like yesterday maybe i hit that point that's still it's gonna be a

lifelong battle but uh no he made me feel so much different than anybody ever had and i tell people that i think the magic was in him being a literal stranger and that i was very defined by who people told me I was and people that already, you know, and when I met a complete stranger, that I almost could just clean slate, build who I was and who I wanted to be without having to, like, qualify. Like, you know what I mean? It's also great that from the recent experiences of you, it sounds like you don't give a fuck what people think about you. Like, like, or what people tell you you are. You're creating yourself in a whole new, like, realm of podcasting and writing and, you know, making art. I'd argue that.

I've, I, it's not, it's less that I don't care and more than I realized if you, if you want to do this, you don't have a choice, but to block it. And I, I, it's been, it's, it's getting better over time. I am highly sensitive. I am derailed if I get, you know, when I get mean DMs, see bad reviews, all that stuff. I've had to kind of figure how to work around it. But, um, yeah, I don't know. It was just, I, I wish I could give people like, I don't know. I think people always love meeting stories because it serves as like a proxy for how, like, it can happen. And, for other people but honestly it was just like it's complete an utter chance meeting of a night when you know you kind of could go home you kind of could write it off but i'm like there's an attraction here i'm interested in you let's just go for it see where it goes and so he's in the hallway with you you sent him home yeah and then what happened he we exchanged numbers he texted me we didn't go on a date for like three or four weeks i just kind of like remembered him thought about him and uh yeah then we like started we probably like were boyfriend girlfriend like six months in um but it was just the first time in my life when like I felt beautiful I felt appreciated I felt like I was like oh people

are supposed to call and text you like oh they shouldn't have a side girlfriend that you're just like you know what I mean I honestly like had a really yeah I did really bad experiences with guys and um he just really uh he changed my life in terms of I don't give him credit for my success and I don't want to act like you need a partner. But I think for me, I was at a point where I really, I think that I was very distracted by how bad my dating life was. And it was preventing me from fulfilling a lot of my potential because I'm so sensitive that if something's wrong in my personal life,

I have no ability to compartmentalize. Wow. And something about having more peace in my personal life made me, enabled me to. I love that so much. Did you have trust issues? Yeah. I like to a degree but I think honestly like I just was really um uncomfortable around guys and like I like a whole host of issues but I the biggest problem was I was always everybody's buddy

like I wasn't very flirty I like I just I don't know I've just never been that girl who's like cute and fun and squeaky and like I don't even like woo at a concert like I'm just not like a I mean my least favorite thing in the world is when like people are together and like someone starts singing a song and they all start singing together like I want to blow my brains out do you like silly photos when someone's like okay now a silly one that's when i like do something really ugly and then i was like kind of you ruined it and i'm like i thought we're being silly yeah and their silly is like from like smiles their silly's adorable they're like little tongue out and i'm like i'm the grim reaper um people even on national tv is that i'm not girly enough

so but it's kind of like i remember writing after that came on tv like a little thing that like being a woman does not mean you have to be feminine like that's something like that's society that's telling you what feminine is and like two people being attracted to each other it's not like this perfect like toxic masculinity and toxic femininity that bonds and creates a beautiful child like that's not what life is and he he made you feel beautiful yeah it was honestly did you feel flirty with him or you still just felt yeah i did i felt like a different person and i really think i was burdened by um always kind of dating people in circles of people i vaguely knew and feeling like kind of predefined and um i think yeah the i honestly we are complete opposites and i don't

i just don't think there's like any formula to it other than like how is he different from you he's very like type a he's in finance he's intellectual he's uh pretty unemotional like he's pretty matter of fact and like i don't know i mean like he we just process information and see situations totally differently but like i've grown a ton and vice versa from taking thing, being less sensitive and seeing things more clinically and just also, he's so non-judgmental and that was helpful for me. I grew up in the South,

I think I didn't realize that a lot of blooming prejudice and like issues of like just being really harsh on people and not thinking through their experience. And he's always been the one to be like, playing devil's advocate. Yeah, he, he is the devil's advocate. He's the devil. Like he, that is his, like, he hates what I say that,

but like it's good because I am a youngest child. My parents are wonderful. I feel like I was largely coddled. I've always been, you know, I've never really had people be like, I think you're wrong. And honestly, until I met him. And that was so good for me. Yeah, you can't walk all over him. But he's also not being disrespectful.

He, like, wants you to see a world in a different way, which is really just enhancing who you are. Right. And he's not like, you know, patronizing, mansplaining any of that. We just would have the good conversations about, you know, like his experiences in mind. And I just kind of slowly started to, I think a lot of my neuroses, too, and the way I saw things were just a result of my, like, own insecurities and self-preservation. You just, like, deflect, deflect, and, like, I don't know, so he was...

But you took the time to work through that. Yeah, I took more the time to work through it. I mean, and our relationship wasn't perfect by any stretch, and I was new to even being in one, but over time, I think that what was prevalent, and, like, still to this day, it's just, like, I still have the same magnet. I'm still that attracted to him. I still just want to be around him. And I think if you just, like, are sitting and not doing anything, and you're like,

I'm having the best time. Like, that's all you can ask for. That's how my parents are. where like they're so simple they literally just like do the same thing every night they get home from work they order they eat dinner they watch the next game and they just love it yeah i mean right it's simple with another person it wouldn't be fun right but for whatever reason they have this like simple connection and i also would argue for anyone listening who's like the guy's girl or like the one who gets friends owned a lot like i said on yours it's like it's way easier to be fuckable than for someone to like

you as a person. And now that I'm older, I'm disgusted by the concept of someone not caring about who I am as a person and just liking how I look. But that's what I wanted when I was young is to be smoking hot. Yeah. But like, yeah, and I think to the, I don't know. That's not your fault also. That's everyone telling you that that's what you should value. Well, right. And yeah, I just think that I don't know. I, I, the friend's own thing was, uh, it was, it really, even though it was flattering, that people were like I like your personality I just like don't like you like that it really messed with my head and I don't know why

it's like stupid like their energy affects your energy yeah so it's like you probably weren't feeling like you could like be flirty or like touch his arm because he's not being like that because he's just not the right person for you and that doesn't mean you're not like fucking hot enough yeah right now where you are

is where a lot of you know people who are not working on themselves like want to be well I think too like I know a lot a couple's. I don't know about you that are perfect on paper, but I really don't think they like being around each other. I was telling my parents the other day because I'm single and it's like kind of, it's not that much of a topic, but my mom's like, why do you think you haven't found anyone? And I'm like, mom, I could be in a relationship. It's so easy to be in a relationship. 100%. I know so many people in relationships and they fucking hate each other, like

hate each other. Or New York, the joke in New York is that people are too busy to break up. Like it's like, I want to break up them tonight, but I get home late and she's working. And then like, we have a vent to go to and then like I haven't seen her like people are literally too busy to break up because breaking up takes time takes a long time yeah I mean yeah I've never broken up with somebody but when it's been me I've been like no it's not so weird that it's your first like real relationship that like turned into the one it is yeah it's a little weird I guess like in my head I have so much more experience because I like mini dated so many people that went so wrong so I had so many ups and downs rather than like slow up slow downs yeah it was like a it extremities. And at least like you didn't stay, God forbid, with those people for, you know, six years. And then it's like, wait, you've been cheating on me. And then, you know, you're 32 and you're like, I guess I should start figuring out who I am. Well, to your point about being asked why you're single. Like, nothing grinds my gears more than people approaching single people as if it's, it's a, it's a victim of something they are reluctantly and not an active decision

they've made. Because you could be anybody, like, you could be married, you could be in a relationship. you're just not in the wrong one and you've decided to like that it's not like I'm just getting rejected by every person I talk to right and people almost approach like nobody likes you he's just around the corner it's so rude when you least expect it like whatever I would joke because when I was 27 everyone's like you are still young don't you worry about a thing and then I'm like I know the second I turn 29 alarm whistles are going to go off emergency bells and people are going to be like are you okay? And I'm going to love the attention. Oh.

Just take it all and just be like, I don't know. It does shift. We need a gift. Like literally those arbitrary things shift and people are like, no, this is the time. I'm like, I'm the same person I was two months ago. You're going to expire. No, that happened to me between years like three and four of my relationship. Everybody at first is like, talks about what could be and they're so excited you're in

this relationship. Then you get to a point where people are telling you how it should be and how you should or shouldn't move in together, when you should get engaged, dictate your timeline. And I would stop going to. to parties because people would be like get drunk and like pull me in the bathroom be like when's he going to put a ring on it and like I didn't know and like we weren't there yet and we like dated for five years before he got engaged and people tortured me for the last two years and it really it is so so people that are in serious relationships and not engage it's it's horrible people it's all

anybody asks you not career not your not your family they're just like so you guys gonna get married yeah I haven't even thought of that because I've never made it to the three year mark but that sounds intolerable because also it's like you don't know me you know my relationship you know what's going on right and then it's like they think they're helping like you didn't think of it like he should propose to you like no shit that's a possibility exactly all i want people to do in life is ask themselves is this something this person's probably already thinking because for the love of god you think i've never thought about getting engaged i have a fucking Pinterest board ask yourself that question and then ask yourself have you had too many tequila's

because then just have a water and stop fucking with other people's relationship issues. Why do people care? The only time I'll get involved is when I feel like someone possibly is like being manipulated or like being abused in some capacity or you're like, are you okay, you've been treated different, but never being like, does he not love you enough because you don't have a ring? Right. Like there's a difference between like your friend wants to get married and have kids and this is her dream and she's dating a guy who doesn't want to get married or have kids and she's waiting

for a different result. Yeah. That's a time you intervene. it's something you're like constantly complaining about like what do I do what do I do that's a question you can answer right try to help her with right but there's nothing wrong with dating there's nothing wrong with not obsessively like obsessing over milestones like when people are in that weird late 20s area and everyone's getting married and it's like it makes me so sad to think of people being like well this is the relationship I'm in during the time when I should get married so guess we're getting

married I feel like that's what's happening right now I feel like my people my age at like 27 28 29 are like, okay, marriage time, who's going to be the one I'm dating while I'm 29 and proposed to? And I sense that in people and like, I don't know, maybe because I never put marriage on a pedestal. Then I have some friends who like, they just want to get married so bad. And it's like, I think that they shouldn't rush into it. I'm like, this is the person that takes up real estate in your brain for the rest of your life. Make sure he's not a psychopath. Oh my gosh. You don't even know the person until a year and a half. Let's be honest. No, really. It takes time. And nothing upsets me more than pie in the sky conservative mentalities of like, you know,

why by the cow? Like why like people acting like getting to know the person is somehow off putting and that you should believe in like magic and just be like if, you know, six months in. God forbid you have sex, you know, too early or whatever. And it's like, you know. Or not have sex at all before marriage and stuff. Like it's so insane to it's so. it's so problematic that to demand that people sign up for something and for you to insist

that they have the least amount of information going into it. It's fucked up. I am having so much fun talking to you. We're going to play our final game right now, which is called the Seven Deadly Sins. Are you ready? I think so. It's going to be scary. Seven Deadly Sins. What are you greedy about? I don't care about, like, things, like purses and shoes and bags, whatever. I like small fees that give me enhanced comfort in small situations, like the economy plus seats, like the delivery fee.

Like, these small amounts that add up over time mean not a lot more to me than buying, like, one really nice pair of shoes. I literally, like, am subscribed to, like, 12 photo editing apps from Korea. They're just low-key charging me 1299. I'm like, I'll get to it. but no i the where i like spend money and what i crave is like uh like like legroom you know what i mean like that's like i don't like being uncomfortable so everything i pay for is something around my personal comfort oh okay i was that first i was like so she likes getting two dollars off on things

no no but like i'd rather pay five ninety nine for delivery than leave my house like that's that's luxury and comfort to me whereas a lot of people are like those small fees drive them crazy that's why i've trouble with fashion because it's like yeah that outfit would look good, but I will be miserable the whole time because it's going to be up my ass and then I won't be able to sit down and then I like hate scratchy things. It's not like the softest thing ever. I'm like, I can't wear. So that's why I look the way I look. I love that specific answer though. Who are you envious of? I'm honestly, this is kind of personal. I don't know. Okay, I'm envious of people that like are really untouched and excited about the concept of becoming a mom.

I'm very envious of my friends who, like, it's their dream and they're so excited and they get married, they just want to crank out babies, whereas, yeah, that's something I'm wrestling with now is just like, it's not natural for me. I'm not maternal. This isn't something that, like, it's like I intellectually, objectively in my head, I want it, but like, it's hard when you don't, like, feel it. And I'm, and I feel, and I'm 32. And it's, and it's also an uncomfortable thing because so many people want to be parents about it's so hard. hard for so many people and it's not a, you don't really want to say that. All children are miracles, whatever, but it is a personal decision. And I think I just wish it was more clear to

me like when, uh, like when and I would have them and if I will have them and like I wish that I was going into it being like pumped to be pregnant. Whereas I think like, okay, well, that's when my life ends. Yeah. And I don't, and I hate that about myself. But I really see like the point where I have kids is when my life and career has to stop. And I, that's a mental blockage I have and I'm envious of people to do it anyway. It's funny because that's how I feel right now. But in my head I tell myself, oh, when the time's right, I'm going to be so ready. Like when I'm with my significant other. But knowing who I am, like, I've never once crossed my mind. I've been like, I want to be a mom. Yeah. I want to have like a cute little Hannah running around. Yeah.

But also, I think it's less all encompassing than you think. I told my mom, I was like, I don't have a kid. That shit's expensive. And she was like, Hannah, it's not expensive at the beginning. You just like need to feed them and like get them some clothes. And I was like, okay, well, I'm just a fact. with that into budget. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, and if they're going to be

professional tennis where I have to get them a lot of tennis lessons. No, I'm keeping them away from tennis. Fuck that. I don't need them being made fun of

on a reality TV show years later. What are you gluttonous about? I really like eating in bed. Oh, yeah. I love to eat like chips in bed, like crunchy foods. It's a problem for my marriage.

And then you can use it as an exfoliant afterwards. I mean, exactly, a little two for one. I'm a snacker. I'm a grazer. I don't like meals.

I'll just like eat everything all day. And I love, like salty stuff and I eat like an unalarming amount of salt that's amazing real quick I forgot to ask you what's your day to day look like right now like what is a day in the life a day in the life I do a lot more like freelance writing now and I do like some like consulting work for marketing like that just kind of randomly will come up over time I'm writing a book proposal right now so I'll do like a couple hours of like writing or this and that they'll do a lot of like random administrative stuff with Courtney for

like the podcast and the ads recording a podcast and editing it probably takes me two full business days even though it's like two hours long. But by the time I like record it, distraction free lists, give it two passes, edit it. It takes forever. Oh, yeah. And, um, and yeah. I'm the same way. Like you're like, oh, you're on my podcast.

And then you're like, I've only worked in my podcast all week. I know. And there are people like, must be nice to work for an hour. And I'm like, I don't record it and leave. But that's what a lot of people do with those like, with a lot of podcast networks. They go to the studio, record, leave, somebody else edits. That sounds great. It's never going to be me.

it's not going to be me either i'm like too it's it's it's we're putting our heart and souls out there and i just also it's not that hard to edit no it's been really interesting to learn it's hard in like our mind like you wouldn't edit the same way that i would right when we say edit it's just like little things like it's mostly just like pauses or just yeah i take out really embarrassing laughs well i'm like really and so you know depending on your mood you like are so funny or you're like i am the worst like i'm so annoyed with myself all the time listening to audio i once was like do I ever form a full sentence? Have I ever formed a sentence? Do I, no, my sentence has even makes sense? Is everyone lying to me? Right. And I'll send it to my friend and she's like,

and man, it was so fucking funny. And I'm like, you know what? I just got in my head. I got in my head and I hated myself. That's the biggest battle. The hardest part of editing is listening to yourself. And not knowing what other people remember from episodes or think it's funny is never what I think they would take away from. And I probably almost cut it out. That's why, yeah, that's why I was scared to edit mine at first. But now I do the bare minimum of editing. but it's more like the meticulous. I just want everything to sound smooth. I don't want,

I want the audio to sound crisp and beautiful and for just everyone to be so happy in hell. I mean, FYI, I thought you were on like a professional podcast network because yours from the get-go has been like really solid. I think most people have a few episodes at the beginning that are pretty embarrassing

and years are really good. I'm just like obsessed with making sure the audio quality. There's been a couple episodes that like someone's levels are off or like I fucked up, but it's funny how important it is. Yeah, you've done a good job. A lot of people like just talk

their computer mic at first. But at least you're starting. When was the last time you experienced extreme wrath? Like, are you an angry person? Anybody, like, my sister is single, and whenever she has bad experiences with dudes, I rage. I have no anger and no intensity to me in a negative sense until somebody, like, messes with her, and then I, like, chest puff, like, go after them.

to the point where Find where they live. This person like really screwed her over was like horrible and I didn't have a way to get in touch with him and I wanted to give him like a piece of my mind and I just like could not not say anything and but he had Venmo'd be once

and so I like through a dollar transaction told him everything I needed to say in a Venmo transaction because that's the only way I could get in touch with him. It was private. That was so funny if it was public. It's like you impregnated for women. Yeah. That's amazing.

you guys use Venmo to stock people 180 characters it makes you really sharpen your son in terms of insults in a concise form you could do multiple dollars if you really want to make a novel out of it yeah or sense you can do sense as well when was the last time you were a sloth like lazy this is something i've struggled with lately uh the older i get and the more self-employed i am i feel so so guilty when i'm not being productive and to the point where i can't even watch tv anymore Like and it's hard because I think that was a lot of good time for my husband and I is like sitting down and watching and binging a show but now I'm like I need to do something. I'm creating my own future if I'm not doing it nobody else will and like also and that's entrepreneurial mindset where there's like no time off yeah I realize that I have to give myself those days to refuel by like binging you yes the show I'm recently currently binging that but yeah afterwards I felt guiltier than I normally do and you shouldn't and you shouldn't because I got on like a but I wasn't watching TV because I was kind of depressed like you know know when you're like when I'm just going to like watch some people. Nothing interests you. Nothing interested me. Yeah. That's why like reality TV is always interesting to me because I'm

love human nature and like but sometimes I'm like why don't want to watch someone else's story of some fake ass shit. I know and you're like this is. I couldn't even doing murder documentaries. I'm like just sad. So I normally can do cults though because I'm fascinated by like oh I love cults. Human like interaction stuff. I was a sloth this morning though. I slept to like 11 and then I was like two hours late to this. Yeah we were both two hours late. because we kept agreeing on pushing the time. And I was like, let's just, let's just do tomorrow. Yeah, let's just, I'll just call you.

Like, let's do this remotely. Real quick, did you actually do a past life regression? I haven't done one yet, but, um, I have, I am obsessed with the concept in my favorite book of all time is Many Lives, Many Masters. Have you read that? No, I need to. It's the craziest thing ever. And when I learn about regression period, it just, like, fascinated me.

But like, there's this one, um, story in the book where this woman has this choking phobia and this anxiety. and for no reason and, like, can't swallow pills and all this stuff. She goes to this doctor for regression when she's hypnotized. She talks about an experience, well, this is current life regression, actually, but she talks about an experience where she's watching herself in, like, a surgery room when she's, like, seven years old, and a doctor drops a utensil down her throat. And she's saying this while she's hypnotized.

She wakes up, the doctor's like, this is what you just told me. She's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. They check the records with this, like, the scribe of whatever surgery she had when she was that age and like somebody dropped a utensil down her throat. But just because, so that's the whole concept, right? It's just because you're not conscious, doesn't mean your subconscious isn't picking up on everything around you.

So bedside manner is important. It's like a big thing in medicine. And so I read this book. I read it in eight hours. I was obsessed with it. I was like, oh, my God. And he goes way into past life regression and how people would get hypnotized

and reel off historical facts from like, you know, 14, 16 in France. And then you'd Google them and they'd be accurate and they'd have, they'd be speaking a different language. I mean, like the craziest stuff. And this is from the 80s. This guy's a Columbia, like a psychiatrist. Like, he's an MD.

Like, he's not a crook. Yeah. And anyway, long story short, I read this book and like obsessively told my husband about da-da-da-da. We go to like this cooking class that night. We're across with this couple. And I'm like, so what are you doing? She's like, oh, I'm on a book tour.

And I'm like, oh, what for it? She's like, it's like, it's like hard to explain. I don't want to get into it now. But basically, I, you know, died for 37 seconds. when I was giving birth to my son and through like past life regression. Like it tells me this long-ass story. She's an author that wrote about regression and has this whole story about how when she flatlined she was able to regress through her entire experience of dying.

And it's like a near-death experience story. But I actually kind of don't. It's called 37 seconds. You should read it. It's this story about what happens when you die and how she saw it through regression and how she was when she died. she said in her regression all the shit that happened in during the surgery and then Northwestern the same thing then like a nurse went on the record being like she explained it to a T and she was

actually dead like she knew where everything was she knew where the crash cart was she knew what the doctors were doing she saw her husband pacing in the hallway and like the way she describes death is so beautiful and like her mom and her aunt where like she saw them physically at either side and like it's this book that I don't know it's just this weird so she became a ghost like she it was basically like you there's still this level of awareness that you don't even know you have and it's a argument for spirit and soul and like your heartbeat like where that stops and where the rest of you start that's like so heavy to like close with but I say that only this is my favorite part this is um no these are this is a big reason why I have a podcast I love like

deep dives like I'll get obsessed with something I have to know everything about it and then what's funny is there I guess it's a recency bias but then all the sudden you see it pop up everywhere kind of and I don't know because you're like you're aware of it yeah it's it's like manifestation when you're like oh I want to um start a business and then you because it's top of mind you see that everywhere yeah exactly like oh how to start business or you're saying it and someone's like I'm starting a business and that just becomes what your life is like focused on exactly but apparently a lot of people there's things that like the theory is your soul carries from past lives and it's like so fascinating and a lot of people

with the deep debilitating anxieties and mental health issues will go to this doctor in Florida and regress and when he noticed people were starting to say things beyond this life it just I don't know that's where the story starts and it's like wild it's wild I'm too scared see I'm less scared of knowing about my past yeah I'm scared of knowing about my future like I want to feel in complete control of like anything that can happen I just like you should do ayahuasca oh my god I'm so scared of drugs same I know I'm like what is ayahuasca do it's it's the one where they go to like Peru and like a shaman gives you this disgusting tea and you like apparently your entire life flashes before your eyes but it's a

psychedelic that's been like scientifically proven to relieve people like addiction manic depression because there's something about it there's something about it makes you process all the stuff that burdens you in a way that you can't see clearly I had like an ex-boyfriend who wanted to do it or he did it I don't know apparently it's life changing but I don't want to even endure that 24 hour period. But I know people who have kind of done it or like and they say they like do it every couple because like then it kind of wears off like you're like really woke for a couple weeks and then you like kind of get back in your old habits of thinking.

Yeah. So it's like you have I just, I'm scared of drugs. I'm scared of losing control. But I mean, I was just like I was probably an Amazonian woman. Let's be honest. I would love to hear about your past lives. I would love to hear about your past lives. How annoyed would you be if they were like, I see a tennis racket?

I'd be like, fuck you guys. That would be awesome. I just see a dog playing with a tennis ball. Oh, fuck. Okay, last question. When was the last time you lusted over someone? Honestly, which is this annoying, because we talked about how annoying the office is earlier,

but like my prime dream guy is John Krasinski because he's tall and handsome but not too handsome. He's approachably handsome. And he doesn't know that. he's like and he's funny and like i don't i don't like traditionally good looking like i think sometimes i'm off put when people's looks are too statue-esque and too obvious because then i they make me fundamentally insecure because i'm like well you're never going to stick around it's funny because i'm like for some reason really like pretty boy or like modely type guys like me and i think it's because like

they know that i don't care like i don't care about looks that much scarcity abundance so they like sense that it's like when a dog wants you to pen you're like I don't like you and the dog's like me bammy yeah not that I don't like them but I'm like I'm more impressed by personalities yeah yeah um and height no you're I mean honestly I read I read that one you first I was like oh my god I feel like everyone's mind just was like yeah um what I like to end every podcast with a final question what advice would you give listeners on how to cope with your hell and how to cope with your hell I think that one of the most important things you can do is not look at every slump,

every bout of depression, every issue you have as something you have to get past. It's more about learning to live with it and learning to get through it. But realizing that if you're a person that deals with, it has melancholic tendencies, that has mental health issues, they're going to be prevalent. And I almost feel so much more at peace being able to like recognize. signs and symptoms being able to be like it's okay that I'm this way and other people aren't and I used to kind of treat it as like I can't wait till I'm a happier person and I just think that

having the knowledge of like what is my default settings people's default settings are different levels of happiness and it's harder for some people to feel happy than others and it's made me be more conscious and find sources of joy and work harder at it than a lot of people which I think is the perk but um yeah i think i just not beating yourself up for who you are because sometimes who you are unfortunately is a person that has is going to have to deal with more difficult things than other people and that's okay too and there's probably people out there who are dealing with stuff worse than you as well yeah you're never alone or with the same stuff yeah absolutely you are so smart so funny such an amazing life story i'm so lucky to have you on where can people

get more of you and follow you yes so my podcast is called be there in five. It's it's pop culture. We interview a lot of influencers. It's kind of talking about all the things I say we talk about in chat rooms and not newsrooms even though it's not 1999. No one has a chat room. But like, you know, it's the things like that the elements of pop culture that I think are really funny, like reminiscing about like sorority experiences or like complaining about being like a bridesmaid. Like, you know, sign of the times things that we all do. And my book's called Twinkle Trinkle Trinkle Social Media Star. It's like a children's parody book. So it's not like really for kids. it's kind of like clueless where a kid can watch it and laugh but it's not explicit but like later

you'll be like oh that was suggestive but you'll enjoy reading it yeah right and then follow me on instagram at uh be there in five and yeah that's it awesome follow her listen to her podcast subscribe rate review to all of um both our podcasts i know how many people listen and i know how many five-star reviews i have or force or one star and i'm just saying it's not evening out um so i'll find you and your family and I'm not going to tell you what I'm going to do but that was a threat so leave reviews

and screenshot if there's any funny like things we said tag us and we'll message you back this is going to be a fun time thank you for coming to hell Kate and I'll talk to you guys later in hell. Bye Bye