Katie Boren: Being A Ballerina & Balancing Life
00:00Welcome to BurningHellWelcome to The Depths of Hell.Welcome to the Depths of Hell.I'm your host Hannah Burner,and today we have a ballerina.Hello.Her name is Katie Boren.
00:24Did I pronounce it, right?Yep, that sounds right.Amazing.And she is in the Corpse de Balletof the American Ballet Theater.At age six, she began studyingat the Ballet Academy of Texas,and here she is now in New York City,
00:38one of the top ballerinas,and she decided to come to hell with me,and I don't know why yet.I don't either.You wanted to go to hell,and I kind of love that.I wanted to. I did. I seeked you out.You're clearly a masochist.
00:52Oh, completely, yeah.And yourself aware, which I respect,after answering that.Yeah.So I kind of want to.to start from the beginning. Okay. Where do we begin? So when you were young, what were yourhobbies? What were some things that brought joy to your life? So, like, I did. I startedtaking ballet lessons when I was, like, three. And my parents tried to get me into, like,
01:15other sports and activities and whatever. And I really just didn't enjoy anything else.So, like, any free time or, like, any thing when my mom was like, oh, I was like, what do youdo on Friday, Saturday? I was like, I want to go to ballet class. I want to go play this to you. So youloved it.loved it so much what did you love about I don't know did you like other dance um I did like Itook modern and tap and jazz but I like I would take ballet every day um from really young ageit was like six days a week I'd be taking class and I mean I loved the way like I felt when I wasdoing it when I was young I was so like oh it's carefree and like you have freedom when you're
01:52moving but then like as the training intensified I was like you know such like I'm such a perfectionistSo I was like, oh, I can make this so much better and this and like you're never satisfied with like the level you're at.So for me, it just kind of like indicted this hunger.I was like, I want to just like, I need to get better at this.I need to get better.And it's similar.It's similar to tennis as in you, like even Roger Federer every day is trying to improve on his backhand.Like you never, you see how much you improve in the beginning and you kind of get addicted to it.
02:25What personality type do you think makes a successful ballerina?type A perfectionist like really really like hard worker um a lot of us like we've chosen this path from a very young age so we're used to like sacrificing a lot i'm sure you were like social life school what have you um and you have to be really um you have to have a tough skin yeah like you get shit thrown at you every single day and it's funny because in sports it's kind of known that coaches can behave yeah like I've had coaches hit me in the back of the head before I've had coaches like makeme run till I threw up I've had coaches make me do planks on the tennis court and like a hundreddegree floor to weather and I was getting like first degree burns on my like elbows yeah but socoaches and sports are known to be intense yeah dance coaches they can be as bad or worse oh yeahbecause they they really like they get into your like stikey they really get into your mind andit's you know they all had this great career themselves and it's i mean i'm not saying that all of them
03:34like they don't want to see somebody surpass them but they always have that kind of edge like oh like i wishi was still like that person in the studio like i feel like that's so unhealthy it's like living vicariouslythrough the person and there's also competitiveness exactly you're right there's so much mentaltorture that goes on there's so much mental torture so much mental torture do you think thatyou emotionally are kind of the right kind of person to tackle this kind of commitment?Yeah, I think definitely. I don't think I could do anything else besides this anyways.How old are you? I'll be 27 in two months. Wow. Yeah. You've been doing this a long as time. Very long time.Was there someone that inspired you to make you want to do ballet? I really got into it at such young age. It's not like I
04:25had like an idol that I was watching or somebody like YouTube video like it wasn't evenYouTube video back then but um I think as I started to see myself like improve and like havethe natural talent for it then I started seeking out like other dancers look up to and tosee how they like approached a variation or technique were you good when you were little likewere you one of the standouts that's what I'm told honestly I don't know how good you can beyeah like five years old yeah but there's you know you'll see kids thathave a certain focus that maybe other kids don't have.I remember the high of, like, coaches coming up to my parents and being like,
05:03hey, your daughter's really talented.Oh, my God.And you're, like, addicted to feeling special.Yeah.And you're like, that person, like, what other, you're, I mean, in school, you're teachingcould be like, your kid's smart, whatever.To have someone point you out of a group of kids and be like, that girl can go places,you get such a high.
05:21You do.That's so exciting.And you crave it.You need it more.Were your parents highly involved in your ballet?They were very supportive.I wouldn't say they were like super involved in like my decision to continue it and to take it more seriously.They were always just there like, you know, we're here to support you.
05:41If you want to do this, that's great.If not, like you can choose something else.It's fine.So at 14 you moved to New York City.Why did you move?So it was actually 15.But I moved here because I was given a scholarship to train.at the Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School, which is a school affiliated with American Ballet Theater.
06:00So I accepted the scholarship.Was that your dream?Yeah.ABT has always been my dream.Yeah.So it was like, all right, I have to do it.Like, I'm not going to get there if I don't like take this step now.So were your parents happy or sad?
06:14They were happy.At that time, it was hard.I was 15, but I had two younger sisters.And we were all, we were living in Texas.And my parents really thought, like, 15's really young.to send someone to New York.So my whole family picked up and moved to Connecticut.Oh, wow.
06:30Yeah, for about a year and a half for two years.And I would take the train, the Metro North, from Connecticut to New York, every day.So, like, essentially, like, I really was.I was on my own, felt like I was living in New York.I would spend, like, a few hours at my parents' house in Connecticut, just asleep,and then get back into New York.Yeah, so then at 17, I went into the ABT, 2, which was my first professional contract.And then my parents were like, right, bye.
06:54They went back to Texas and I retired.Did you feel pressure that your whole family had to move?I think I did put pressure on myself.It was just like they picked up everything so I have to like make this work.They never did anything to make me feel that way and like they really loved living up in the north.It's nice to have a summer where it was like 300 degrees every day.Oh yeah, that's brutal.Yeah.
07:17I'm going to now start to get a little darker.Let's do it.I like to warn people.I'm like, are you scared of death?No, I'm just kidding. What was the closest you ever came to quitting?There have been many occasions. I think probably the closest was when I was in ABT 2 and I had done an apprenticeship with ABT.Like I had done their nutcracker season with them, so I performed with the main company.And after that, that was in December, I went back to ABT 2 to finish out the season.
07:51And then it was just assumed that I would go straight into the main company.But at that time, there just wasn't a contract available.And Kevin said, the director, it was like, we've loved to have you and we'd love to give you contract.But there's nothing available right now.You can wait and go through ABT2 again, which for me felt like a demotion.So I was like, I was devastated because I was like, okay, well, they like me.They've used me.I've been here for years.
08:18There should be a contract right now.And the thing with the ballet company, like, you just don't know, like, when someone's going to go out, get injured,it sounds like you feel really out of control of your future.Like tennis, you just, you have to win.Or ballet, it's almost subjective and political.It almost sounds like.Oh, it's so subjective and so political.That sucks considering all the, like, blood, sweat and tears that goes into it.
08:38Exactly.Well, so then at that point, I was like, all right, I should quit.I should give up.How old were you?I was 17.So I called my mom, and she was like, all right, well, yeah, you can quit.And I was like, well, no, I can't quit.I can't do anything else.
08:51Like, I have to do this.And then, like, the next week, I was taking an open class at Steps, which is a studio here.And, like, they have open classes all day, and professionals go and just stay in shape.And randomly, the director of the Statsbilt at Berlin, which is the Berlin State Opera Ballet, Ballet.Buttering Malikov, he was watching class.And I could see him just, like, following me and, like, paying a lot of attention to me.And after class, he, like, came up and introduced himself.And I was like, of course I know who you are.
09:17He was, like, this mega, mega ballet star.He was like, I would like you to come dance to me in Berlin.Like, can you be there in a month?I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that.And my mom was there watching class too, and she overheard all this.And I just saw her eyes, like, explode.She's like, moving to Berlin.Like, what the hell?
09:37But you weren't scared.No.I was naive.Sometimes, like, being ignorance is bliss, almost.Yeah, completely.It's such a great example of you can get rejected and get really down in yourselfbecause you're just seeing so far into the future,but you have to realize the future isn't planned,
09:54and there's opportunities everywhere that you,just because you can't see it in the moment,doesn't mean it's not there.I always say, I have this quote,even when it's raining, the hoop is always there.Like, just because you got rejected from that contractdidn't mean that there wasn't a hoopand, like, an opportunity for you to score something even better potentially.
10:13Yeah, and that was a big, like, learning experience for me.Just so people understand the kind of commitmentthat goes into it what is your like what does your week look like in terms of working outpracticing okay here we go let's get into it yeah so abt when we're rehearsing we rehearse five daysa week um we're on a tuesday through saturday schedule and we have company class at 1015 to 1145and that's just that's where you like your body warm you like go through a full class it's the samelike sequence of combinations or steps exercised in every class but every combination will beslightly different and then from there we go into rehearsals from 12 to 7 7 7 hours well we get a lunch
10:57break at 3 o'clock but going from 10 a.m. to 3 o'clock without fair to a really long timeso yeah there's a lot of anger in that time span but yeah before class I'll do my own workoutcan you snack oh yeah we're like running because we always have it'sEvery rehearsal is like by the hour.You have a five-minute break in between.So you'll see people like running through the locker,grabbing a banana, trying to get to the studio, whatever.And then you have to like,
11:24how many girls are in this?So ABT is a company of about 80 to 90 dancers.And it's pretty equal like male-female.Okay.So then you finish at seven and then you're just recuperating the rest of the day?Depending on if I was able,because I always like to get a workout in before the day,depending on if I'm able to get as much.
11:44much in during that time or not I'll either go to the gym after seven or I'll just gostraight home and ice and eat and I'm usually out by like or I'm in bed by like 10 I don'treally sleep but it's you're so just like mentally taxed by the end of that day yeah why do youwork out if you're kind of like being physical all day long it's um the ballet technique like itdoesn't it's like it's an insane workout of course of course but it's sophysical and athletic now that there's so much more that we have to do to supplement that and alsofor injury prevention and everything in ballet is done externally rotated um so you're overworkingsome areas and not working other areas which can like with compensation and stuff you just like get really
12:32unbalanced um but yeah like for me i found that there's a lot that i have to do to like maintain strengthand keep being injury free knock on wood speaking of unbalanced do you feel likeyour life is unbalanced. Oh, yeah. But I think I've been living in this, you know, state ofunbalanced for so long that I wouldn't know what balanced was. How is your social life? Like, are youfriends with girls in the company? Yeah. I'm very close with many other girls in the company. A lot ofus have danced together since, like, age 12, age 13. Cool. But we're all going through like the samerigorous schedule on a daily basis. Is there an air of competition? Yeah, definitely.It's, I feel, like, connected to you and sway.
13:17I was talking to my mom recently.I'm 27.I don't think I understood what female friendship was until I had a really bad breakup at 25.Because from seven years old, every girl that I, like, met through tennis was directlytrying to beat my ass.Like, it wasn't like, oh, you play tennis too.It's like, if we get on the court together, I'm a whoop your ass and you're going to bea loser.
13:42and if you beat me next time I'm going to beat you.Like it just, it was so intense.And then even college and the girls in my tennis team all week, we were fighting for spots.Right.So like these are the girls I hang out with all the time who I know deep down aren't even rooting for me.Right.So like every, when you're just trained with every girl being someone who's trying to take her spot,or my dad's like, look at her back hand, look at her forehand.
14:08So then I have animosity towards them.I had to work through with a therapist.jealousy, competitiveness, and I realized it was all just from my experience and that when I changemy perspective, women and females are actually like the most beautiful like companionship offeminine energy. They're the only people in the world to understand you. Like men will neverunderstand you like another woman does. Especially if they have no idea about ballet. But I was kind ofthe same way like younger in school and just starting my career. Like I was definitelyvery competitive with people around me and I just put that on myself and you had to be it's what
14:47made you successful yeah and it took me a long time to like really understand that like we're all inthis company together we're all supporting each other we're all of the same like goal in mindwe want to put on a good quality performance and like we're the only ones going through thislike hellish day like every single day of the week and like it does bond you to an extent it reallybut it's still like not a pure friendship of a friend who's just like hey are you okay rightRight. And there's something invaluable about that. I mean, I was, coaches would brag about mebecause I had a killer instinct. So like in real life, having a killer instinct is like I'mgoing to be on the next Netflix murder documentary. But in tennis, it was like when I would get the
15:32lead, I would run with it. And when I sensed a weakness, I would jump on it. And like, that's notreally good for social skills. No, no.Probably not. I don't think I would be friends with you.So I've had to, like, work through that.And I actually ended up realizing I actually don't love the competition.I actually love creativity.Like, just because I'm very good at tennis and I put so much pressure on myself, so I'd win a lot,didn't mean that it was what brought me happiness.
16:03Is there any time that you feel like ballet isn't bringing you the happiness you want?Oh, yeah, several times, like throughout the day.Um, but I think at the end of it, like, I've also never experienced the opposite, like the same, that kind of like elation and joy and happiness and freedom from like just having a great performance or just being in the studio by myself and like finally figuring out like, yes, like I got those fucking foetes. Like finally. What is your goal with ballet? Like do you still have goals? Are you now just kind of like enjoying being in a company? I, I set like small goals for myself and I think I've been really lucky.to have a career that's taken me so many different places and I've done so many differentum, ballets by different choreographers and different styles that right now, and it's been suchlike a stressful like anxiety-causing thing in my life for so long. Right now I really want to focus ondancing to continue like to keep my happiness and to do what I enjoy about it. And I feel likeyou're actually going to perform better when you have that perspective. Like I miss tennis all the time.
17:09And the one thing I regret is, it's like if I ever go on the court and compete again,I would just want to compete for happiness.Not happiness out of winning, but being on the court, feeling my body, enjoying feelingalive and just the art of the sport instead of having it so attached to my ego.Yeah.Do you find, like, what do you do when you have a huge performance?Like, what mental tactics do you have to perform your best?it depends on what I'm performing and what the role calls for but for me like I have to just I
17:45find comfort in like over rehearsing and over practicing and over like picking apart a piece soto get as much like studio time in like it comforts me even if I'm like you know fucking up likeconstantly at least I'm in there I'm like okay I know I'm trying this and this happens on stageI can like go with this route and fix it this way so being over prepared if you know thatyou're going to get, you know, anxious about something knowing what helps calm you down.Yeah.So if you're afraid of, like, choking, do you do anything else to help calm you down before a performance?I, I mean, I try to keep my, like, my psyche very, just calm.
18:23And I just, usually, like, leading up to a performance, we're rehearsing all day.So I'm kind of at the point of, like, exhaustion.And I'm looking at the show, like, okay, just, like, two more hours and I can go home, I can eat.I can have, like, asleep.But before every performance, like, I go through the same warm-up routine.I've been doing it since I was, like, 15 or 16.And if I don't do that before performance, I definitely feel really, like, shaky on stageand just not comfortable.
18:53Yeah, like, I really feel like prepared.A lot of, like, top athletes and performers are superstitious.And I feel like superstition comes from anxiety of trying to control the future.But it also can work if that's,what you believe in.Right.Like your perspective can make you the most confident person in the world or you can convinceyourself that you're going to fuck up.
19:14Right.Yeah.And I think like with this warm up thing, like it's not like, oh, if I don't do this warm up,like I'm going to have a terrible show.Or like if I do do this warm up, like I'm going to have the best show and like everything'sgoing to go great.I just know if I do this warm up, I'm prepared to have a great show.Like I'm giving myself the proper tools to do what I need to do.
19:31I love that.I was so black and white.Like all day I'd be like, um, oh, this.this guy likes me so that means something's bad going to happen which means I'm going to lose my match or like I'm going to double fault a hundred times like I was so result oriented when you get so result oriented you can scare yourself so much and I I was because at the end of the day I was just trying to win to like survive on my tennis team and I totally disassociated from like the love of the game yeah but now when I play with my friends I'm like oh my god I love it yeah I mean I don't missthe competition, but I always did love the sport. How much longer do you think you're going todance? I've probably got some about like age 35, I'd say. If I'm lucky, like more realistically,I probably like 32, 33. Do you ever think about after ballet? Yeah, it's scary. But it tookme a long time to like allow myself to start thinking about the aftermath. For so long I just
20:35even go there with your mind it's terrifying because it's going to happen it's going to happen and like the thingwith dancers is you know a career starts so young like i didn't go to college i finished high school at age16 i haven't wow been in a classroom setting since then i have no desire to go like get a degree oranything like that um are there any side things that interest you yeah so i did start finally thinkingabout the future and when i retire um and i'm really like i'm obsessed withwith cross-training and the fitness side of ballet.Yeah, so I got certified over the summerand I'm now a certified personal trainer.
21:13That's amazing.So I can definitely use that in my next chapter.And, well, I think also just because you stop with ballet,a lot of, there's something like after college sports,a lot of people take a gym strike because they just, like,I felt like after tennis, why am I going to the gym?I'm not trying to lose weight.I'm not trying to win a match.
21:33why am I putting myself through this physical anguish but then I realized I'm an athlete I lovemoving my body yeah so it's I it would be impossible for you as someone who's so active all day toone day just finish it and then like be on the couch all the time that that never that never happensnow even when I get a week off like it would not do well on the couch like that now I want to geta little spicy okay how's your love life what love life it's so funny because I've hadguy friends who are like, I'm at a ballerinalast night and I'm like, cool. Yeah, you know what they said?They're like, oh, let me see you touch your toes.
22:09Ew. Let me see you open your legs.Ew. Do you watch Black Swan?Yeah. What is youropinion of Black Swan? This has been on my to do listto ask you. Yes. So, I mean,Black Swan is a greatthriller, like a psychologicalthriller. Beautiful movie in that
22:25aspect. It is not aballet movie. It's not a moviethat portrays the life of a ballerinaballet company. We donot behave that way.Are there any specific examplesof things that you were like, this is not?I mean, it was just like all
22:41over-dramatized andI thinkhonestly, like the thing that did bother mewas that they used a lot oflike real dancers and likepeople who are actually professional, I've been training and what haveyou and like the dancingscenes are like his body doubles and they
22:57didn't get as much recognition.And like, yes,the actors in that movie were phenomenal.And like,that's their life's work that's putting out there but also like the dancers as well um that waslike a whole controversy back then but yeah it's funny because i didn't know that world i was just likeoh my god they kissed yeah do you want a boyfriend um have you ever had a boyfriend i havei've had like a couple relationships um i mean honestly like i never really made like dating or like
23:28even like having a guy in my life a priority and i spent so much time being alone and like takingcare of myself and like working out the things that i absolutely have to do and need in order to makemy career easier do like whatever i need to do to get further so i think if i even like had like astudy boyfriend i wouldn't know what to do with that i wouldn't know like because i'm very like i needmy time i need to make sure i do this and this and this i'm like i can't so it sounds like mentally you'reyou're not in a place right now where you have the space for a boyfriend.Yeah, I'm really not.Totally okay.
24:01Yeah, even when I've, like, been in a relationship, I've found, like, even if it's goinggreat and we have no problems, I'm still anxious and it's still making me, like, a veryuncomfortable person because I don't know, I don't know what role he's, like, going tocontinue to play and if he's going to let me down.And I just, like, everything just keeps going.It's almost like, if he messes with my career, if he, like, if I go in a rehearsal andhave a bad day because, like, he's causing issues back at home, like,it's funny at a very young age my dad was like I don't care what to do with guys just don't let them distract you yeah so it gave me this air of like yeah I'll date people but like it'll never distract me yeah but then when tennis was causing me a lot of anxiety I would like want to have a guy to fulfill my happiness because my life was like struggling with tennis especially in college when it's like I need to keep my full scholarship right I can't not show up to practice like I literally knew I to play all the time
24:55so I would just call my boyfriend at the end of the dayand cry about what was happeningI'm like give me affectionlike I was obviously a great girlfriendbut that's not a relationshipI'm just trying to use himto bring happiness when that'sliterally the worst thing you can do
25:11and right right now I'm at a placewhere I'm realizing ohthe man's not going to bring you happinessthe job's not going to bring you happinessit's you just kind of being comfortablein your own skinExactly.So I just learned a lot about life.
25:28Are other ballerinas suffering with that balance?Do they, what's like the overall locker room vibe?I mean, you get a lot of different personalities in that locker room.There's, I mean, within the company, there's a lot of relationships and a lot of marriages that have happened.And that's great and it's beautiful and good for you for being able to work in the studio with your significant other.Are there a lot of straight male ballerinas?Oh, yeah.How would you stereotype a straight male ballerina?
26:00What do they like?I mean, there's, it's hard to put it, like, your finger on itbecause, like, there are some straight male dancers in there who, like, you'd see themon the street and you would think they're, like, just a regular, like, jock, like, broil.You'd never picture them in tights, like, dancing around and studio.You guys must have crazy sex.I mean, you just had it.not nuts so i'm envisioning athlete sex and we're both like my hip flexes are tight and i'm like
26:32my hip flexes are tight i lift it too much and you guys are like um can you give me your foot yeah we'rejust gonna put that behind there i'm like can you just a little further like you're great stretch right nowit's a great stretch just hold it and you're like now spin me spin me anyway so obviouslyyou are performing at a very high level mm-hmm what gives youthe most anxiety like do you do you deal with normal people anxiety or are you on like a wholedifferent spectrum of anxiety um that's good question because i've never really been a normalperson so so it was like the little thing stressed you out like if you go to the grocerystore and you need to buy something and they don't have it like will you freak out i will freak out
27:15i will freak out if i i think even last night like i went to sweet green and i like ordered it on the appand I went to go pick it up and I was like in my pajamas across street I was like I just want to get home and eat my dinner because I'm tired and late and they had like messed up my order and so I had to go back downstairs like give it to them and I like pointed out the issues and I was like really I was livid I was like it's just a salad and I put in all these ingredients and you didn't do it right and I was like oh my god Katie this is a salad don't like you don't need to freak out about this but like yeah when little things go wrong it really like I freak out what's your biggest likeWhere do you think the anxiety stems from?I think I've just always been so hard on myself, and I expect perfection from myself,and I tend to expect it from other people as well.And, like, when somebody, like, really lets me down in that way or something just doesn't work the way it's supposed toand the way that, like, I can see a simple solution.So you're a little bit of a control freak?
28:13I'd see a lot a bit of a control.Do you do anything to try to go with the flow, or, like, are you trying to be less of a perfectionist?or you're just like, this is me, and I just need to learn how to cope with it?A little bit of both, I think, because I think there are some aspects of my life for, like,I need to be that way, and I've learned how to, like, handle that.But then there are other aspects where I have to tell myself, like, this is okay to just let things go.When was the last time you, like, went to a bar and blacked out?I have never blacked out.
28:41Do you drink?Oh, yeah.Okay.But I think it's also a control thing.Like, I'm a control freak.I rarely black out because that's scary to me.Yeah.Yeah, like I have to be in control and I know the limit when I'm too drunk.
28:54And I, even if I am too drunk, my body just says like, no, okay, that's it.No.Do you freak out when you smoke weed?Yeah.I freak out too.I don't like it.I don't.Some people like the loss of control and freedom of their mind where the second I feel like I can't control what my mind's doing, I'm like, this is bad, this is going to end badly.
29:14Exactly.I don't know what is happening.I can't formulate thoughts.Yeah.I will ruin every party.Yeah.party's ruinednot for me
29:21and it's hardbecause I want to bethe carefree fun personlike I really want to beand sometimes I ambut not with stimulantseven coffee I'll get likeweird and jittery with
29:33and I like can't handle itso I feel likeI've learned a lot about youdo you everyou have obviously a type A personalitydo you ever suffer from depressionyeahthere were a few years
29:47where I was really struggling with itit was a couple of summers agowent through like it was a really bad breakupand there were a lot of like outside circumstancesand I was in denial that I was depressedI always feel like you don't know that you're depresseduntil you get out of it and you're like wowyeah I was like I was miserable for like two years
30:10and I didn't even realize also when you have a routineI think it's easy to fall into a bad like mental spiraland you it's not easy to changeit up because you know you wake up you go to practice you work out you talk to same peopleyeah and it's easy to get into this like hole yeah how did you get out of it um i did go to therapyfor a little bit and like i've been just working like constantly for like we just finishedmet season it was like eight weeks straight eight shows a week every week is a different balleti'm like yeah by the end of a met season i'm like 10 pounds lighter like 10 shades of white
30:45pale or like it's it's bad um so like after that we getget a bit of time off. And I had a few weeks. I went home to Texas. And my mom was just like,we've got to, like, we've got to fix this. She's like, you shouldn't be feeling like this.And it's okay to get help and, you know, come out of it. And so I started seeing a therapist.And I realized, like, I was being just so cruel to myself and like going through such a negativemonologue in my mind. And so like that helped me to kind of get out of that and gave me tools tolike continue. Why do you think you were talking so negatively to yourself? Because,Like, through the relationship that I had been coming out of, I knew that it was bad from the beginning, and I knew it wasn't good for me, and I knew I was going to end badly.
31:28Why?It was just...Like, what red flags?There were a lot of red flags, but for me, it was, like, it was my first relationship, like, the first boyfriend.And, like, I just thought he was so cool.And, like, oh, my gosh, he likes me.Like, oh, I'm so, like, this is so exciting.Like, don't fuck it up.
31:46Like, don't make him mad.And so with that...I was really like I was trying to please him and I was also really trying to like and that's how you loseyourself exactly because next thing you know you've changed everything to make his life better yes andfit into his life yeah and then you forget where your life is and then you get scared yeah I did notrecognize myself I didn't recognize the decisions I was making like choices I was making like the negativefeelings towards myself I was having it was just a whole it's like once you lose touch with who you areand your intuition, then those voices have like a field day.
32:23They start saying whatever they want and you can't decide if it's real or if it's somebullshit that is just coming at you.So I'm proud of you for going to talk to someone because I went through a very similarsituation with an ex.Do you see like a therapist now or is there like a sports psychologist that deals withthe ballerinas?Oh, they should have that.Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of mental health things going on in a company.
32:47They would have a field day in our company.Wow.I feel like they should provide that for like maximum performance.I think they should too.I'm going to bring that up.It's also hard like to find time.Yeah.At 10 p.m.
33:00while you're stuffing your face with sweet green, you're like.And then you did trip me.I also have to address like obviously I feel like eating disorders are prevalent in ballet.My one friend, she actually was in a company until around like 22.And then she like started to get boobs.And they were like, no.Mm-hmm.So can you speak on that a little bit?
33:24Yeah, so, I mean, it is...It has an ideal body type.Yeah, ballet is always, there's always been aesthetic to it.It's always been like the light, skinny, you know, long-limbed ballerina.There was a quote by balancing something about, like, beauty is when you can see, like, the bones, the collar bones.Jesus Christ.Yeah, so that's kind of where the whole, like, issue started.but like now like in today's companies everyone is really adamant about promoting like a healthy dancer
33:54a healthy athlete um that's great yeah like it's a really it's very important these days and they willtell you like if you look too skinny and like that's also that could like you could lose yourcontract if you know you're letting this to go of your life um but also like we are physically activefrom 10 to 7 usually even more before and after that and then we have to performif you talk to like anyone with a regular nine to five job you know they work out they go to the gymmaybe like an hour and a half two hours half an hour yeah so like that's that's what we do for a warm uplike people say oh my warm up is like your warm up is my exercise or whatever that quote is like we actuallylike that is our warm up and then we're still vigorously active for the rest of the day so are you
34:37consuming a lot of calories per day yeah and like that's the thing like we don't we don't count thembecause there's like oh I'm hungry I like I need energy okay what how do you eat um umSo I take a fork and a knife, and I start the cut.She's the comedian, too.Where's my podcast?I know.So what's your, like, what do you eat in a typical day?I usually do eat pretty healthy, but I'll eat a lot.
35:01So I'll have, like, Greek yogurt in the morning with a bunch of fruit.And after class, I usually have, like, a protein bar and then snack throughout the day, like, nuts and fruit and have, like, turkey something for lunch and salad with proteins for dinner.and a lot of wine.Fine.So you're eating healthy, but you also, like, I remember with tennis,I was just eating to, like, get energy.Yeah.I just was like, I don't want my blood sugar to drop,
35:27and I need food now.Yeah.Did you ever suffer from an eating disorder?I definitely struggled with my body image.It never got to, like, that severe of a point.I was also very skinny as a child.Naturally.And I always was told, like, you look weak, you look thin.
35:52We know that you're not.Like, you are very strong, but it's just, like, my life's super low lives.So they wanted you to beef up.They wanted me to beef up.And, like, I, too.Like, I wanted, I was like, I want my legs to look, like, strong.I don't want them to look like sticks on stage.So it was, like, there was definitely, like, there was some difficulty, like, going from, like, you know, growing up, going through puberty, like, becoming a woman in a white leotard in a room.
36:15in a room full of mirrors and you're just staring at yourself every day it's like me playingtennis and I have a performance plus someone's also judging how I look at my skirt at one point I wasworking out and eating so much with tennis like my thighs were rubbing together so much during a matchit was like on fire like I was like 15 pounds heavier of muscle and I shouldn't have been butI was just eating too much but that was emotional eating because I was stressed and when my boyfriendwasn't there to talk I needed to eat cheese cards at Wisconsin yeah I think thoseare, you know, more better than a boyfriend, but yeah, that's my opinion.I agree.
36:49When I was at a tennis academy alone, I suffered from an eating disorder when I was 15 becauseeverything was out of control.My family wasn't around, and I'm a control freak.And my grip, they were changing my forehand grip, and I was going to tournaments, and itwasn't working, and I felt a lot of pressure because my parents were putting money in, and I'mtype A, so the only thing I could control was food.Right.And I'm naturally, like, have a good metabolism.
37:16So I was eating, like, a lot, but I was still restricting.And I didn't, I looked in the marijuana one day, and I'm like, I'm way skinnier than I should be.And then I talked to therapist and, like, I worked it out.But it's just when you're a type A high performing driven personality, it's like inevitable that you're going to have some kind of control thing with food.Yeah, for sure.And as long as you realize it's not about the food, it's not about the tennis, it's aboutyou being okay with letting go and that everything's going to be okay.Yeah, I feel like I'm in therapy right now.
37:53I like preaching about it though because, like, I am a survivor.Yeah.I have a eating disorder.I had it and I'm good.And now I have a very healthy relationship with food.Yeah.But sometimes that stuff gets you stronger.It's true.
38:05And no one talks about like the recovering eating disorders.Everyone's like, it's such a like, yeah, it's such a healthy relationship.Yeah, it's such a, like, hush, hush topic.It does need more awareness.And even asking you about it, I felt a little taboo.Like, I was like, I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable,but I also feel like everyone's had an eating disorder.Yeah, and, like, I heard somebody say it once.
38:24It's like, not that everyone had a diagnosed eating disorder,but there was some sort of disordered eating,some sort of, like, mental block with foodor some bizarre way of, like, having a relationship with it.And I'm like, yeah, that's probably prevalent to every single woman and man today.Yeah. I mean, I watched my cat. I have a cat. Her name's Butter. She's very cute and smart. And I was leaving and I normally give her half a can in the morning, half at night. And I gave her a full can in the morning. And I was like, oh, I hope she doesn't eat it all and get a stomach egg. She just ate exactly half and she was full. She's an animal. She doesn't think. We're not animals. We are human beings who have complex thoughts, whether you're thinking about how stressed you are about practice, or you're thinking about how you don't want to go to work, or you're thinking about, oh, my God, I hatethe way my, you know, thighs look right now.Or why do I have to wear a white Unitart tomorrow?
39:15White Unitonard is brutal.Brutal.So, speaking of the worst, it's time to play Seven Deadly Sins.Okay.Seven Deadly Sins.What are you greedy about?My time.I don't do, like, I have anxiety about, like, big group things and making plans.
39:40And I really need to decompress, like, by myself alone.And I also, like, I don't like wasting my time.And I feel very selfish with my time.I think also because you won't have that much time to yourself.Exactly. Exactly.I'm like, I'm not going to go to dinner after rehearsal.So I, like, can sit there and, like, have to put on makeup and get energy from.You're performing all day.
40:05Yeah.And if you're not hanging out with, like, your best friends, if you're in a big group setting,you're in a performative placewhere you have to put on makeupyou have to present yourselfand if you've been doing that all dayit's like I don't want to perform at night tooand like make someone laugh or think I'm pretty
40:19like that's so...I want to go put on my sweatpants or fake laughoh I'd rather kill myself than fake laugh tonightnext we havewho are you envious ofoh goshI try not to be too jealousof like anyone in particular
40:35just because I knowthat like I've worked so hard and I dohave my dream job and there's so many people out there who would kill to be in the position I'm inright now. So you're grateful. I'm very grateful. That's really healthy. I'm very grateful. But I do findthings in like my coworkers and other dancers where I'm like, oh, I wish I could have that skill or howdid they do that so that I can make this look better. How do you deal with people who are jealous of you?I ignore them, I guess. Because you can sense it. You can definitely sense it. And it's,it's uncomfortable for sure especially like if you get chosen for a role i can't imagine
41:13yeah because that could ruin friendships it could and it has i've seen it happen before i think that'swhy i personally am so careful with friendships and the company not that i would be unfriendly withanyone but you choose who you let get really close to you yeah yeah oh it's it's like the hungergames the hunger games and white leotards oh god um i kind of want to see a reality tv show of itoh god they've tried so many times but it's almost like it's too intense for them to do that stuffwith it and they also try to make it about like something different they try to add like romantic dramasinto it and like shit that doesn't actually happen and also like dancers we're very smartand we are not going to say anything to anyone on camera that would jeopardize our job you're right
42:01and you're also control freak so you're not about to just let loose for the camera exactlybecause we don't want to be tv stars like we want to bedancers on stage and yeah that's why i guess the dance moms is good because the kids are doingtheir thing the moms are fucking out of their minds oh my gosh i really want to know the answer to thisquestion oh shit what are you gluttonous about wine yeah what kind of wine um i love red i love malvexromans pulciano or temperino um you classy i'm classy so you'll just like go home and drink wineand what do you watch on tv um i don't really followa lot of TV shows.
42:40I usually just put something onfor like white noiseand just kind of zone out.I usually have to just likesew shoes at night or...How many glasses of winewere you drinking a typicallike Saturday night?
42:50I usually stop after like twotwo and a half.It puts me to sleep too,which is great.Yeah, you knock yourself out,roof of yourself.What was the, when was the last time?When was the last time
43:02you experienced extreme wrath?So anger.You seem Brady eventemperate? Don't ask my mom about that. Um, well, one time I did get like really angry at her and it wasthe stupidest thing. Um, she was staying with me for Met season. Like she came up for one week.Well, that's an intense time for you. As I said, it's a very intense time. And I always like warnmy, um, my family and my friends. I'm like, I'm sorry for what's about to happen or who I'mabout to become. Please like cut me some slack. It's like wedding season, but it's. Exactly.
43:38Your performance.Exactly.I would get really quiet before a tennis match because I'd be really in my own head.Yeah.And my parents would always be like, are you okay?But I was like in my head like visualizing and doing whatever I have to do.Yeah.But I realized the more you can just be yourself, the less like pressure you put on your performance.
43:57Like if I'm quiet before a match, you know that I'm nervous and I'm like probably fucking my own head up.Yeah.Same way.When was the last time you were a sloth?um oh probably right after nutcracker this year we finished on the 23rd and i flew home todallas on the 24th got bronchitis stayed in bed that'll get you that'll get you to chill out a littleyeah and i had that's your body telling you it needs a break i had had such like a rough schedulefor that nutcracker season it just happened where i was doing every snow scene which every
44:33snow scene in any nutcracker in any company is the worst it's it's always just a lot of jumping a lot offootwork a lot of running so you're like getting your seven minutes of cardio in and it's it's painfuldo your parents let you kind of chill out when you go home or are they like go do stuff go meet peopleno they're like go to your room we'll leave you alone you come down on can i have your parentsthey sound amazing but yeah like i was so sick and i was like i haven't actually laid in bedfor a day in years.It felt so weird to me, but any time I was like, try to work out.Do you think that you should add more rest to your schedule?
45:11Yes, but it, I haven't.But it's difficult.I've tried.Yeah, it hasn't worked yet.Yeah, it is.When was the last time you let your pride get in the way of something?Like, does your ego affect your decisions?Um, I wouldn't say that I let my pride or ego get in the way.
45:31I think I had to learn at a very young age.this career that like pride and ego will be your downfall and it will like work against you and not it'sdefinitely hard when in the beginning you have people that are just like bragging about you and proud ofyou because then one day you're not the best one in your small town exactly you're competing withall the best girls in their small town exactly so you were able to kind of humble yourself yeahget like too competitive with like being the best all the time right and I think I I kind of had to findthe line between like there's a difference between pride and having an ego and confidence you're soright so yeah i love that quote good one right it is now to go back to being spicy oh god when was the
46:15last time you lusted over someone i knew this question was coming you listened to the podcast rightit may have what's going to happen oh shit she's all red right now i know yeah there's there's onespecific instance I can think of oh my god tell me so he well he was friends with my ex one of them one of thetwo and um my he just like he was friends with like all of our friends and I never met him but I likeseen him social media obviously and just like whoa and so we like shot this video togetherand he was like at ABT and everyone at ABT was like walking around and like looking in the studio tosee this person they're just like who they're just like who they'rehell did you bring into our company what does he do for a living model and act and you know he just
47:04he's beautiful for yeah his job um but yeah his job is to be beautiful yeah and he's like the sweetestguy like he's a good friend do you think anything could happen no why i don't think i would allow itjust because like i don't want to like cross like friendships and like he was friends with an ex andit's funny because sometimes you get along with friends of your ex because there's it's like if youlike him and he likes him you would like him like it's kind of difficult it happened yeah likesome people married their like best friends i mean i haven't done that but well that's because i'm singleas shit yeah just to wrap this up what advice would you give to people to cope with their hellum i think i would just have to say like give yourself a little break and stop the negative commentary in
47:54your head because like everyone else is going through their own struggle and their own issues andwhat you think is like the like most devastating thing like the end of the world like there's somebodydown the street who like could give zero fucks like has no idea what's going on in your life andthey're having their own struggles and you know you put two and two together and just like yeahyou know it's not really that bad putting perspective on it because sometimes it's hard not tothink negatively when you're so feel so down about something because you're like I need to getbetter so why am I going to be easy on myself right now yeah butI think sometimes the best things happen when you let go.
48:27It's like punching.You want to punch something really hard.If you squeeze really hard, you're actually not going to throw a good punch.Right.But when you relax and let loose, it's actually going to be most effective.Yeah.That's probably how you are when you're performing, too.Like, if you go out there in your tense.
48:41Oh, it's the worst.Like, you're going to have really shit performance like that.How do you make sure that you're calm when you're about to perform and don't tighten up?Um, I just have to just, like, deep rest.and just like visualize the choreography in my head and like walk my body through the steps andI think at the end of the day like I just have to like trust my body more than my mind like my bodyknows what to do like it's done these motions these movements don't always trust your mindbecause sometimes it's trying to mess with you most the time yeah Katie I'm so happy you came on
49:16this was so fascinating to take a look inside of your world yes um she is going to be performingduring Mets season in May.So if you're a fan, and check her out on Instagram at Katie.Katie Born One.Katie Born One.Simple.Her stuff is insane.Her poses are insane.
49:34I don't even know what she's doing, but it's gorgeous and beautiful at the same time.And I'll see you guys next time in hell.
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