Berner Phone - Tori Dunlap: Financial Feminist & Negotiating Tactics

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

This week in hell we are collabing with Tori Dunlap's podcast Financial Feminist: Her First $100k. We discuss smart money tips to fight the patriarchy while sharing our personal experiences of navigating finances and negotiations.  I have stand up shows coming up in Connecticut, Westhampton, Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, Tuscon, Tempe, Buffalo, and more! Get tickets here!

Welcome to Burning in Hell. Hi, guys. My name's Hannah Burner. Hi, I'm Tori Dunlap. And today we have a remix, beautiful fusion episode of Burning in Hell. And Financial Feminist. Wow, that was really good. We didn't even practice.

That was so great. We did not practice. We didn't practice. No, I'm so excited to be here with you because burning in hell is talking to people about their, like, demons and stuff, stuff that keeps them up in night. But also, like, we laugh about it. Yeah. And I think finance is hell to a lot of people. I hate to pull out the stats this early, but it's the number one hell for people.

Like, it's the number one hell. Wait. Is when you ask people, like, what are you most stressed about? It's not, like, my job or, like, my stupid boyfriend. It's, like, it's money. I'm obsessed with that because I feel like a lot of my listeners, I've never. talked about anything financially related and it's such a big part of you know people's lives the only thing I know about finance is that they say like after a certain amount of money of essentials money can

actually make you more depressed like there is more money more problem like lottery winners sure oh gosh yeah because I think really with lottery winners it's been proven it's people get a lot of money and then they have no idea what the fuck to do with it yeah and so it's almost like it's just like too much and then they don't know how to manage it responsibly so they blow it on a bunch of stupid shit. Yeah. And then they're like depressed because they don't know what to do. Or they think because I have money now I should be happy. Yeah. And then when they realize that it doesn't really change who they are as people and the stuff that they need to work on internally. Yep. They're like, what the fucks? Life isn't supposed to be like this. But if you're not a lottery winner,

I actually talk about in my book that like money can buy you happiness. Like that is a narrative, especially for women. We've been told like, money can't buy you happiness. Like don't pursue money. It's ghost. It's evil. And I'm like, money is inherently neutral. Like, it is. is morally neutral. And I want money to provide me options and power and all of the fun shit and ease and stability and safety. And I argue that's fucking happiness. So I love that so much because I'm in a place where I'm married to an older man. And I joke like I'm with a Zaddy. Didn't you just like come out and talk about it? I thought it was like a secret for a really long time. The thing is I had done reality TV like years ago. And afterwards I was like, I don't need to like

put my relationship in the public anymore. I really pre. That's what I'm doing. I like, people, if you're listening close enough, like, know I'm dating somebody. I do not talk about it. It's just the least interesting thing about me. Thank you. Thank you. Or it's not like why I want people to follow me. The amount of people who also, like, there's no shame to people. I know people, I love them.

They make content about their relationship. Yeah. And I see it pop off. And I'm like, I know I could monetize this relationship and make so much money. My husband's a comedian. I could be doing so much stuff with him. But the irony of that is like literally, I'm like, why can't me, my book becoming a New York Times bestseller get as many likes.

as a boyfriend announcement. It won't. It won't. But I would argue it can if you're really doing what's right. And the boyfriend announcement is not going to, like, you're going to have to keep coming up with reasons why people are interested. And people want drama at the end of the day. And they want you to have these long fake captions about like the ups and downs. And like I just, I'm not like, I can't do it. But what I love about your book. So it's called, I had a copy for you by the way. Completely forgot it. So I'll send you one. What if I think I ordered it already. That's nice. I might have ordered it.

No, do you know, I'm like a long-time fan? Emily? I've been found, you came up on my TikTok because TikTok galarism is fucking dope. And it was, you were just like, look, like money is power. But I was saying with my man's, everyone's like, oh, I want an older man. And I was like, don't be with an older man unless you, the power dynamic is not going to be too extreme. Like, if you're 24, you have no money and you're with a man with money, like, I personally don't feel comfortable with that unless if I feel like super, super safe in the situation. situation. Like, I'm in a place where I don't need him. I just want him. That's the thing

people, I think, miss about, like, money and relationships is even though we've come so far, all of the shit's happened, it's still 2023. And, like, I have friends who are like, yeah, like, we're fine, but, like, I can't afford my own apartment. Yeah. Which is not necessarily their fault. It's all of the systemic issues. But, like, they're in a relationship because they're like this is convenient this is financially convenient emotionally convenient or like i can't break up with him because i what would i do i don't i can't have my own place all i've talked about on this season of my podcast was literally just like this feeling of we as human beings are biologically like we're uncomfortable with uncomfortability like we do not like being uncomfortable and

when you tell someone like i'm telling you're going to figure it out they like don't like that no They're like, but I haven't figured out right now, but I'm like, you're miserable though, right? Right. I always tell people because I'm like, I'm toxic and that I'll be like, leave your fucking job. You have one life. Like, I'll do that all the time to people. And then I'm like, okay, maybe like just I don't want people to do things to stay in something that they don't have to when they can make money doing something else, but they just can't see it. Because I'm someone who didn't want to do comedy because I thought I couldn't afford that lifestyle.

That was just like I'd rather not be alive. than not to comedy So it was kind of like But you figure I'm like You've always figured it out Up until this point Right

So like why not now And But as someone who now has her own business And I'm hiring people And stuff Yeah This systemic situation

And just the vibe With women is wild Because for example I'll ask comics To open for me on the road And the girlies This is what they do They go

I'll do it for free I just want to be on the road With you Stop it I want to be on the road Stop it, stop it, stop, stop. I won't pay for, just put me, they'll think, I ask a guy, and they go, and I'll say, hey, this is what I pay. And they go, hmm, I'm going to need more than that. So I was in a situation where I literally have a girl on the East Coast being like, I'll do it for free, I'll do for free. Guy in the West Coast being like, I need to get paid this amount. So I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll pay him that. And then I message the girl. And I'm like, you're getting paid this amount. She starts freaking out. And I'm going to tell her when I'm in person and just be like, by the way, you know the dudes are doing this. So you need to do that. And I've had it. The girlies get a talk. That's the thing. But I'm that girlie. I'm her. Right. What people don't realize, especially women, is like, when you accept opportunities for free, all of the rest of us suffer

too. You know, I'm a content creator influencer. And it's like, people accept brand deals for free. I got asked to speak. I'll drop Amazon. Amazon message me. Like, hey, we would love to have you come speak. And I go, cool, what's your budget? That's the question. That's question. What's your budget? And they go, oh, well, we don't have one, but we were hoping you would. come speak anyway. And the powerful thing about what's your budget is, one, I don't have to give a number first. And two, you look fucking stupid when you come back to me and you're like, exposure is my budget. You're doing a project without a budget. Yeah. Right. And you're Jeff Bezos. Right. And when you accept things for free, what's happening, right, is that it's not only hurting

you and your finances and your career and all of these things. But then brands get used to, or companies or whatever, get used to saying like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah. This person did it for free. Yeah, I'll go to the next person if you're not going to do it. And it is such a vibe because I've had multiple women tell me they're going to do stuff like for free or like, I don't want you to be uncomfortable, whatever. And then you start in your head being like, well, girls just do stuff because they want to be nice. And I see, you know, you're generalizing all women in the work fields. And like, you know, women are getting paid. I mean, that's not the reason.

But the wage, I have a lot of stand up about my jokes about wage gas. Like, I love a wage. Because it's fucking true. Yeah. But I'm so bad at negotiating. Like, first of all, I always speak first because I'm a chatter. So I lay it all out and then I was like, can I give you a tip for that? Yeah.

Drink. Have something in your hand. Literally like if, especially if you're doing it over the phone. Yeah. Have something in your hand that you have to like, or before you speak in person, literally grab your water and take a drink because it forces you to slow down. And in negotiations, people aren't comfortable with silence. I'm so bad with silence. And also, I'm a very intuitive, like, sensitive person where I know exactly what they want me to say. So I'll just do it. I know what they want me to do it. And I'll do it. And I want them to feel comfortable. If they have, like, a family, I'm like, you've a family. I'll pay you. I'll pay you. I don't have children. You will figure this out. So what happens is the way I solve this was now I just have an agent that does it for me. And I just. Which is not a bad idea. They're going to take 15% of it.

Yeah. But a lot of the, a lot of industries, you don't need an agent and you're the one who's doing it for yourself. Right. Or if you're just trying to negotiate with your boss or a potential boss, that's like, it's what I help millions of women do. It's like there's this feeling of I should just be grateful for what I have. And my not so conspiracy conspiracy theory is that is perpetuated by the patriarchy to keep you underpaid and overworked. Right. It's just like, don't talk about money. Money is taboo. Right. First job I got paid is like 38K. And I was like, I went to college. I was 20, like, it was crazy. But you know, my job was like $38.00. And I was like, it was crazy. But you know, my. actually my first first job was sales and the base was so fucking low but then I was doing really well so I was in on top yeah so it was kind of like yeah I have the lowest base out of everyone on the team but I'm selling the most so like fuck you and I remember I didn't know I had the lowest base and then eventually another woman was like oh you're at 30 I'm at 60 right and I remember thinking like I was so conned that is the power especially with women as well Right? Women talking with our women of color colleagues, like you have a responsibility to talk about money.

And before we started, like we are more likely to talk about any other uncomfortable topic. We'll talk about death, sex, politics, religion, before we'll have a conversation about money. I feel like men only talk about money. Yeah. They talk about like their gains and Robin Hood and like. And it's also socially acceptable. Right. It's socially acceptable for men to go out on the golf course and like talk about how their stocks are performing.

Because we're greedy. If we have. Exactly. The amount of TikTok comments I get on the daily. of just like, you brag a lot about your accomplishments. And I'm like, you were the same person who's, like, worshipping at Elon Musk's feet. Like, what, there's such a double standard. The sexism is rampant.

Oh, and men who make money are celebrated, right? And when you think about, like, if there's a guy, again, golf course, Instagram photo with the Rolex, the comments are like, cool, Rolex, bro, you're doing well for yourself, right? Yeah. If I show up in a designer dress or something that might seem to be expensive. The comments are not, like, great, it's daddy's money or husband's money. Yeah. Or it's, why aren't you donating more? Okay, I have so many thoughts about this.

I remember a lot, men have the thing that they're the caretakers, right? Which is so funny because who's actually taking care of the children. If you think about it. And also, women are making the buying decisions. Yes. Like, so that's the fucking thing. The patriarchy. The money.

The money. But the patriarchy, and I'm fully, everyone's guilty of, like, internal misogyny. Yeah. Because that's what we were raised with. And patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women and any day of any people. And I think of a man and you're like, oh yeah, you have to pay him money. He's a man. He's a man.

He's providing for his family. Or like he even does that family. But I'm like, but he's a man. I can't underpay a man. But then a woman, you're like, it's fucked up. But you're like, she's like me. Like we just want every. She wants to be happy.

She wants me to be happy. We don't need. Like, we're fine. And like, why is that okay? Well, we weaponize women's altruism. That's the interesting thing. So I talk about this in my book. We have very, like I'm talking in a very gender binary here.

But like the way we raise boys is so different than the way we raise girls. Like boys are given trucks, Legos, things to build, right? They're told that their like value to society is in their own, like, confidence, their own ingenuity, like their own thoughts, right? What do we give girls? We give a two-year-old another. kid to take care of. How fucked is that? Like, we tell her, here's your easy bake oven, here's your bridal veil, here's your doll, here's your Barbie, right? We tell her that your value in society is not your own thoughts. It's in how much of yourself can you give to somebody

else, which is beautiful in a way, right? Like, I love that about being a woman. I love that I think about other people before I think about myself. Like, I love that. But what happens then when a woman starts becoming more successful we weaponize that altruism and we go well why aren't you donating more you're so selfish you're so greedy you're so ungrateful but really what's happening is it's like you are no longer controllable

yeah when you have money you are no longer fucking controllable I just got chills so when you get to a point when you are asking for more money when you are negotiating when you are investing and growing your wealth and paying off debt and you don't have to fucking answer to anybody the patriarch is like shit we can't control her anymore So we're going to tell her she's greedy.

Or we're going to tell her like, yeah, why aren't you donating more? Like, why are you? That's such a frivolous purchase. Frivolous purchases, by the way, are only feminine. They're only lattes and manicures. They're not NFL season tickets. They're not golf clubs. Wow.

So literally this is like the entire thesis of my work in my book. But like that's what we're up against. Also like luxury bags are like they're actually more affordable than like Rolexes. But something about like, you know, trading Nike shoes on either. Like that's not a thing. Oh, I am about like, I want money. I want to be rich. I am unapologetically that. I am a multimillionaire. I'll say it. I love it. But at some point, I'm like, it's just too much money. Like, it's too much money. But also at some point you're like, how many people are you hiring and paying like literal dirt? Yeah, that's my thing. Like, that's why like Sarah Blakely. Doesn't she like give people raises and shit? I joke that there's like three billionaires that can stay. It's Sarah Blakely, Oprah and like Rihanna. And those are. Yes. I can stay. But that's the thing about capitalism and is something that I've like grappled with in my own work because I'm like, I don't want to win capitalism because that means I've exploited somebody most likely, right? But I can't lose capitalism because that means deep suffering for me and my family and my community. And I think it's doing as well as you can without doing it under the table and illegally. Like that's the thing about like I'm obviously extremely liberal and socialist and progressive. And I think what's some of the TikTok comments I guess.

get is it's like you're like you're in love with capitalism and I'm like no I'm in love with like stability yeah and figuring out what the cards were dealt how to survive in this life and be happy getting money so that I can pay people well and give people jobs and donate to causes I believe in and yes go on fucking dope trips to Europe the men stuff fascinates me because like I'm dealing with men and women that I hire and stuff and it's not like the men are smarter than the other women or have more experience than other women why like they just naturally Naturally, the men will always ask for more money. And to the point that I always go, this guy has some balls.

Right. The guy knows that I'm thinking in my head, this guy has balls. And the girl knows, if she asked for it, I would say this girl has balls. But she doesn't want to deal with that conflict maybe. And he's fine with it. Well, because we, again, are told, like, you should just be grateful. And often what happens, and this is where it's like lofty as it sounds like you have to couple, like, societal change around money and minimum wage increases and student debt forgiveness and all of that. with like women ask for more money because that's the wage gap thing always is it's like

the answer to that is like women are not asking as much as men are and that stat is true however when women do ask they are less likely to get it exactly which tells you that it's also the system that exists right so we have certain expectations or certain biases right where men can ask for more money and you're like oh yeah okay they're fucking own their shit yeah women ask for money and it's kind of like yeah it makes even women uncomfortable it's so fucked up yeah My thing is I dealt with that in like corporate America. Yeah. And like hired by other women where like they just didn't want to pay me.

Men were trying to take credit for my work creatively. Right. Like I was in a really bad situation once. And I basically was like, okay, I guess I need to go out of my own. So the only way I've been able to succeed is with money is by I couldn't beat the man. Well, my question for you because working in comedy too, obviously. Oh, yeah. As somebody who works now in finance.

very male-dominated. So, male-dominated. So what was the transition for you and, like, the feelings of, oh, shit, okay, if I'm going to go for it, are you the kind of person who's like, okay, I'm going to play by the men's rules in order to navigate this? So I have a unique situation where I was an athlete. So I grew up a tennis player, which meant that, like, I was always training with guys. I've always been around guys. I have a brother and a dad that I'm very close to. Where I do think comedy, some women are so funny. when they start, you know, going to the clubs late at night and have to perform with all these men, they're like, you know what, this is not for me because it's not made, like, in a comfortable way for women. So that's why a lot of women drop out. Well, and the sexual harassment and all that stuff. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So I think with me, I kind of was like, I feel like I was put on this earth to, like, disrupt male dominate spaces. Like, that's my little kink. Sounds about right. So, like, that's why I feel connected to you. So I'm like, I don't know why. But I feel like, for whatever reason, I feel comfortable in this environment to, I get a kick out of it.

Yeah. I love it. And I love men. I have this, like, unique way to be like, I love you guys. You are so sharing now. I love it. But I want, yeah. But I also, like, I'm here.

So, like, make it work. And the internet has been an incredible way for women who are really funny to be seen. A lot of women have discovered me through TikTok and are now going to comedy clubs, which were never a real, like, space for women like you've not heard the girls be like let's go to a comedy club tonight it's not like they'd rather do brunch they want to do something in daytime safe like yeah let's do something that's safe a comedy club like full of male comedians that are making rape jokes is not always like that's what they think stereotypically what a club could be which it sometimes is it sometimes has been i saw louis k on the street last time i was here in new york god he literally i walked

right past him and made eye contact with him and i'm like it felt like seen a ghost i was like what the fuck are you doing out I could not believe it. I literally, like, I waited for him to pass, and then I turned around and, like, watched him keep walking. New York is the craziest place ever. And then I also saw James Franco in that same trip. Like, it was just, like, the Hall of Fame. That is so wild.

It was really crazy. I didn't mean to cut you off. No, yeah. You were like, rape jokes, and I was like, but it's now I'm trying to, like, now the girlies, when they all know they're all going to be there. It's like, my shows have become this. Like, clubs are like, we've never seen this many women in women. place. That's so fucking cool.

Which it's cool, but it's also kind of crazy. Like, I played this theater in Las Vegas. They're like, we've never seen this many women here. And I'm like, you guys have been playing forever. Like, how is. Right. But I think because girls can safely see my jokes and see what I'm doing online, they'll then be like, okay, I feel like this is a safe place because I think women are so fucking

hilarious. And I would argue that a lot of the whole meme culture is a lot of like women and gay men behind it. Oh. So men will see something funny and share. And black folks. Yes. I mean, don't even give me stuff.

in black Twitter but like people are just seeing the words right so they don't know they don't have the immediate bias of like this was written by like a black woman or this is written by you know an older person

instead they just see it as funny well and I think what your content does so well too we were joking about like how many tampons in a week like it's it's content that works this is like the like me putting like my social media hat on but it works for like both audiences where the women can send it to their partners or their male friends and be like see see and then

And men are learning something, too. Well, I like men to be in on the joke with me. Yeah. Like, I will go so hard at them, but they are enjoying it. I like the tension of having men and women there. But if it was an all-woman crowd, like, we love it. But then people start bringing their boyfriend, so I started to be like, okay, I have to address this.

And I have fun with that tension because, let's be honest, like, the men are here to stay. Right. We need them. We need them in some capacity. So it's like finding that way. And I also, I love, like, trying to educate men. Like, my favorite thing is to be like, are you a feminist? And for them to say no.

And then for me to be like, so you don't believe that I should have the same opportunity as you. And they're like, well, you're not equal. I'm like, we're not asking to be equal. We're definitely different. Right. I want the same opportunity. It's equity. And equity.

Right. Equality and equity are two different things. Yeah. I'm like, I'm different than you. Right. Right. But then, yeah, so I feel like there's a lot of misrepresentation when it comes to what a feminist is. Do you still get the like women aren't funny? So I recently did a TikTok asking men

on the street like why do you people say women aren't funny. Yeah. Because when my videos go like viral viral, you know, it's out of your like people who normally like your stuff. Lord don't I know it. It is crazy. It immediate is just women aren't funny, women aren't funny. And I'm I when I first saw that, you're uncontrollable. It's all back to that. So I asked I asked men about it and they were so funny. They were like, it's like you're taking our jobs. Like literally like, Like, men, funny is like how they get girls and wealth and, like, personality. Did you see the stat that it's like, what is it? When in heteronormative relationships, when a woman says, like, I'm attracted to humor, it is, I'm attracted to a funny man.

Yeah. When men say, I want a sense of humor in women, it is she laughs at my jokes. Yes. Not she's funny. She laughs at my jokes. And true intimacy is two people laughing at the same time. But, you know, you know you'll see people who are like, embroider that on a little pillow. And am I guilty of mercy laughing at hot men?

Apsa fucking lootly. I've done it. I'm human, okay? Yeah. But it's funny because so I ask all these male comics. I was like, why do you think I get the women aren't funny stuff? And they were just like, it's such a stupid trope, whatever. And then men were mad in the comments being like, she must have deleted all the bad stuff.

No! No, you're talking to professional male comedians who are surrounded by the funniest women in the world who, like, who would deal with stupid men like you who go up to them and say, I think I could be a comedian too And it's like They still feel that way But it's like tell me my joke wasn't funny You don't have to say all women aren't funny But it's, I'm like, are we in the 1920s?

It's a Serena Williams thing too I think they did a stat that It was like 40% of men think they could beat Juliana Williams Have you seen this? No, I haven't Yes No, I'll break something

It's over like a third I'll break something Like an average, not even like eight A good tennis player Pregnant and lefty She will beat 99% of the men in America. Oh, probably 99.9.9. Men believe that they could beat Serena Williams and around the tennis.

I'm actually working on a bit about this about, like, the male confidence. Because I was thinking about how, like, men are pilots and women aren't pilots. One, I don't have a driver's license because I'm from New York and I'm really bad driving. So, like, I should never be a pilot. And maybe for some reason, men are, like, better drivers in general. I appreciate that we're both jimming the camera. Like, I really, I do it all the time. If there's a camera on, I am like...

I live for the camera. I'm gym into it. I'm making eye contact with you and the people at home. I'm just so glad you did it too because I was literally on an interview once and I just kept jimming the camera and they called me on it. They're like, you can't do the office right now. And I was like, no, I'm connecting with a person at home who's taking time out of their day to talk to me.

I'll make some eye contact. Shit. So anyway, pilots. I was like, is part of it that like men have that like healthy delusion that they're like, I could fly a plane. It's literally fucking that. Because I feel like women would never be like, I could fly a plane. Haven't you seen the Denzel Washington movie where he like, I think he snorts coke and then

he like is drunk and then the plane has to, he has to fly it upside down? So there's, there's a ticket going on. People asking their boyfriends like, if the plane is going down, do you think you can get to the front and save? And they'll be like, absolutely yes. So like there's this, it's scary. Well, isn't it a trend on TikTok? What is it? DeLulu? Delululand. Yeah.

So what is, there's a thing where men, for whatever reason, it's like 80% of life is you just trying to do something. Yes. And I think so many women do not try things because they want to be perfect when they do it, where men are like, I'm perfect because I'm a man and I'll figure it out as I do it. I wish I could remember her name. She found a, I think, Girls Who Code, and she said, we teach men the value of, like, pursuing. Yes. And we teach women to avoid failure at all costs. So dangerous. That's what we teach boys.

Is we teach boys like, fall in skin your knee? It doesn't matter. You get back up and you do it again. Yeah. But we teach women like, you should be so scared of skin in your knee because it might mean you're not perfect. Then they say, like, men will apply for jobs they're not qualified for. And women are jobs that they're way overqualified. for. Sorry, I will, like, giz talking about this. I love it so much.

You're just pulling, we're both pulling stats out of nowhere. I'm here for it. I fucking love it. I repeat it to myself with the mirror. Yep. Because I'm, for whatever reason, I was that person that was like, I applied for a job. I had no zero. I was not qualified for, but I came in with ideas. I was like, look, I know I don't have five years of video editing experience, but these are all the ideas I want to make for your brand. And, like, I know that you need someone who's my age, who speak to millennial women and who get That's it. We call those bridge skills. It's the things that like you already know how to do, even though you don't necessarily have the resume to prove it. And it's like, I can take this skill that I already have and apply it to this particular thing. So I literally tell people when they're going in for a job interview, like look at the like bullet points and be like, you know, they're like, I need a team player. And it's like, okay, here are all of the times I was a team player at this job that has nothing to do with this job. But like I can apply these skills because skills are teachable characters. Oh, I love that so much. And I also feel. feel like when I read this thing about experience that said like doctors, actually with more

experience, you're not always the better doctors. It's the ones who are like more passionate and like sometimes are more refreshed on stuff. So experience does not equate to like being better at what you do. And you also don't have bad habits. This is what I tell because I get a lot of like 20 something women who are, you know, just out of college and they're like, nobody's going to hire me. First of all, like, again, this whole, you should be grateful, especially for like new grads or people who are getting their first job and they'll fucking take anything. You should negotiate. You can negotiate and you should. And the second thing is it's like you don't have all these bad habits. You don't have like you're not an old dog that won't get new tricks. Right. I realize right now too, because I'm

working in social media, that who do you think I want to hire? Gen Z's. Right. So like I, even though you're 22, you're more value to me than a woman who's been in social media for 10 years and kind of knows TikTok who isn't on her phone. every fucking day on TikTok who knows every single trend and how to do it and has a pulse on the culture. So it's in this unique place where I was only hiring Gen Z's when I needed like a right-hand girl

like an assistant because I need her to know what's going on social media-wise. Totally. So it's crazy in that capacity. No, it's smart. And it's again like the classic male confidence versus women is we're told to play small because the moment again the moment we start playing

big I know I sound like a broken record but like The rest of society is like, fuck, she's no longer controllable. So how can we make sure that she keeps playing small? Also, this is my thing. When you have like a boss and you're negotiating, me saying this isn't good enough for me, I want more, makes me think that he thinks I'm difficult and going to be hard to work with. Yeah, that word difficult. So immediately I'm going to be like, he wants something. I'm like, I'm so easy.

I'm so chill. It's the same thing with like dating, right? Oh, for sure. And it's the cool girl. Oh my God. That's such a great comparison because I was definitely guilty of like cool girl pick me vibes when I was in my 20s. It's gone girl shit. It would be like so hot in the room and he'd be like, I don't want to turn the air conditioning on. I'd be like, yeah, I'm fine and I'm like dying of heat. Like I'm so chill. I'll watch any movie. The second I realized that when I was like being authentic to myself, I actually would attract the right people and be in the right situation. It's just we have this scarcity mindset sometimes that like I got the. this job offer, I think it's going to be really good. I don't want to fuck it up. Yep. Yep. I mean, that's, that's everything. And so what happens is, and again, there's also bias here where when we do negotiate, there's people who don't love it. But it's like we're so scared of losing something,

right? Again, so scared of failing that we're not going to do it. And it's like, typically the worst they can say is no. I have seen the occasional, like they've rescinded the job offer, but that's not a company you want to work for anyway. Like, they have done you a favor. If they are not willing to have a conversation about compensation with you, they are not going to be willing to see your value during your entire tenure of employment. So it's like, the worst they can say is like, no, no. Do you have any rules about when you get offered a certain deal? Yes. Like, have you, do you ever take it for what it is? Very rarely. We almost always negotiate. This is where the like, what's your budget question. If you work for yourself, if you're a freelancer, it also, if you're like a

nine to fiver, like, the question that is still asked in job interviews all the time is, like, what are your salary expectations? And you're like, I don't fucking know. I hate when they ask that. So the answer? I'll always be like, the smallest number I could think of. Right. So the answer to like, what are your salary expectations is it's too early in the process for me to adequately price myself, but I'd love to know your budget. And nine times out of ten, they'll give it to you. So I'm obsessed with long drink. You've seen me probably all summer running around this blue drink. It's the Finnish drink of the summer, and it's historical. They made it during the winter games when people were coming over and they were like,

we have to show them Finland is that girl. So they made this drink in the 50s. So this is like she's been through a lot and it's stuck through. And now it's like breaking into America. And it has investors. Actually, Taylor Fritz is one of them, the tennis player. Kaigo, who's a party. Ricky Fowler, great golfer.

And also Miles Teller. who you may have seen on Top Gun. So all these people are involved. It's kind of cool and I feel like the girlies need a piece because we love to get down in the summer too and what I like about it for the girlies is that it really does not make me feel gross when I have like a beer or like a really sugary drink. Long drink is like the perfect amount of like crispy light

like slightly grapefruit flavor. I'm obsessed with it. Go to the longdrink.com and check out where it is near you where you can get it. I got in Sagar Harbor when I was out. in the hamps and there's tons of places in the city or wherever the hell you are, you'll find it. Let's say I want to do a brand deal with you.

Yes. I say, oh, my God, we're obsessed with you. We love you. We'd love to have you on. Can you do a post for $2,000? First of all, any number that they're giving you, they expect you to go higher. Yes. People have to know that.

For brand deals, for companies, because companies, brands, again, 9 to 5 employment, entrepreneurship influencer like they expect you to negotiate and when you don't one it looks like oh maybe they're not as good as they they showed in the interview where they're showing on social media because they're not negotiating and you're about to lose out on a bunch of money or you have the situation where somehow you spoke first and they just take it and you go fuck that's the thing if if you this is this is why we don't give a number first because if you get a number first and And they're like, yeah, cool, that's too low. They should push back because your number's too high. So the goal with a negotiation, right, is like you and your boss or this brand are not on opposing

teams. You're on the same team, right? And that's one of the common things I hear is people are like, oh, I'm so scared because it's like a fight, right? It's an argument. No, it is a collaboration, not a conflict. Yes. You are problem solving, right? And you are probably. They want you to be happy in your position. Right. And you are a great problem solver. It's what makes you good at your job, right? So when you're solving the problem of not being compensated fairly, that's all a negotiation is. Yeah. So when, you know, if you're at 2000 and your normal rate is 10, right, don't ask for 10 because they'll give you five, right? You're going to meet in the middle from like two to 10 and somewhere there, right? If you have this rate that's 10, that's where you

want to land, sure and ask for like 12 to 15. Yeah. Same thing with the salary, right? You have to go out and do some research, you have to figure out what you should be getting paid, right? If I'm a social media marketer and I'm supposed to be making 60K a year and they offer me 50 and I ask for 60, I'm at 55. So ask for more than you are expecting. When if you're like, yeah, you're starting a job when you research, how much is that market research of like average salary accurate? Great question. I talk about this in my book. A lot of people just like research on glass door and they're like, cool, I'm done. No, that's like your first place to look. To get really good information, this is where the talking to people has to come in, right?

Yes. The amount of conversations I have with other content creators, I literally had a post on TikTok go viral because I was literally like, here's what I charge. Here's what I charge for an Instagram post. Here's what I charge for. Because no one talks about it. No, because no one talks about it. Here's what exclusivity costs.

Here's what you should be charging for. I've definitely lost deals before because at the last second, they go, oh, actually someone's done to do it for free. And I remember getting. Don't fucking do that. It was actually, okay, this is crazy. I've never talked about it. I got offered a Super Bowl commercial.

to be on a Super Bowl commercial, and they weren't going to pay me that much. They were, you know, also... This is where I'm like, I'll work for X-Mars. No, no. They were going to pay, like, 30K or something for a Super Bowl commercial, which is, like, not a lot. Yeah, it sounds like a lot, but it's not a lot. But it's for a Super Bowl commercial, people are getting paid millions of dollars. Oh, yeah, it's not a lot. And I already, like, whatever.

So I was like, this is the greatest thing for her. We're going to have to talk about this off my guy. I don't know who the brand was like, I told my team, I was like, done. Like, I'm fine with 30. Like, I just want to be on a Super Bowl commercial. That'd be so fucking cool. But they're also not just going to use it for the Super Bowl. They're going to use it in what, perpetuity.

Basically, my team was, like, not happy with the 30 for a Super Bowl commercial and for the extent of it. Also, it was like, yeah, there were complications. But basically, I, like, had to, like, cancel something. And I was just waiting. And they're like, we're just negotiating. And they're not, like, at the end of the weekend next Monday, they just call me and they go, they're just getting, like, an actress to do it for free, actually.

And I remember being like, I'll do it for free. And they're like, we will not, like, sacrifice your... Because, like, if we want to work with this brand in the future, you've lost all, like, credibility. And, like... That's so fucked. It was so fucked out. And I was so upset. And then I watched the commercial.

And, like, the girl was great in it. But I remember being, like, they went for, like, not a name kind of thing. But sometimes what I've learned, instead of a scarcity mindset, when things fall through, it means that other doors are going to open. Yeah. But, like, you will... Which is hard to say to somebody who's, like, I just need to fucking pay my bills. And, like, I get it. Yes.

Like, I get it. There's a balance there, too. Like, there are plenty of things that, like, I didn't get monetary compensation for. Yeah. But there were other things I got. Oh, for sure. Well, also when I was starting off, I remember just being so abused financially, like, literally it works. But I, in my head, new big picture, I was like, this are the skills I need for the next thing. But it's like, that's also privilege for me to be able to be like, I can live with my parents and, like, get this done because I live in New York City. And a lot of people don't have, like, a house in New York City. that they could work from and go back and forth, even if my parents wanted to come in because I was there too long. But what's also interesting to me is that once you agree to a low salary, it's so much harder to get the raises because you can't then be like, okay, now I want twice as much. That's what the other thing that people don't understand is like, yes, $5,000 extra is dope right now. But you know what happens?

Then your next salary, you're asking for more money, right? versus if you don't ask for money, then, you know, your second job, you're working the salary that you could have gotten had you negotiated, right? So I think a lot of people. Million dollars, women lose by not negotiating over the course of their life. A million dollars. And there's not with investing either. No, no. There's this, there's this quote, this, I think it was a psychologist.

I quoted it in my book, they were like, are you willing to sacrifice a million dollars just to avoid an uncomfortable conversation? No. Are you willing to sacrifice literally a million dollars just to avoid a couple uncomfortable conversations? And when you say uncomfortable conversations, just so people know, like, I remember having a panic attack, my heart beating, sweating. You know, you're 24 and you know you have to ask this man something that's going to. That was, yeah, 23. I remember, I had to like practice, like, like, I remember sending the email. I was like, it was a horrible.

I just found my notes that I made for the first time I negotiated. It literally looks like, you know, when you get like a. note card for your like, it's a final, but like it's an open book final and you get one note card. That's what it looked like. It was a mess. It was like everything I had prepared. Would you guys consider anything less than a championship to be a failure from this year? I wouldn't say anything as a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. There's no doubt in that. And that's the goal. We want to win a championship. I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast, in case you missed it with Christina

Williams. The WNBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else. It's really really hard to be the champions but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have. For all the biggest stories in women's basketball plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars. So to be here I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted but we also know you know that's just one stop along the way and We're hoping to, you know, make it run. So listen to, in case you missed it with Christina Williams

and IHart Women Sports Production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Would you guys consider anything less than a championship to be a failure from this year? I wouldn't say anything as a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. There's no doubt in that, and that's the goal. We want to win a championship. I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast, in case you missed it with Christina Williams.

The WMBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind-the-scenes moments you won't find anywhere else. It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have. For all the biggest stories in women's basketball plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars. So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for great. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way. And we're hoping to, you know, make it run. So listen to, in case you missed it with Christina Williams and IHart Women's Sports Production

in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on IHartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. As someone who's failed at negotiating before, like, I had a marketing job that was miserable and I hated. But I was like, I was doing so much work for this company. Like, it wasn't marketing. Like, I was doing customer service. It was a four-person company.

I was doing everything. And I remember finally being like, no, he sent me an email at the end of the year and was like, you're not getting a raise. And I remember that being a sign being, and I was getting paid 45K. And I remember that being a sign being like, this is not the right place for me. And I remember I quit. And he made some joke. He was like, you should have threatened to use your like health insurance against whatever. Like, you know, like say that you want me to pay your health insurance and take that.

I don't know what he said. He's like, here are my red flags on your way on. So then I was like, okay, thank you. So I kind of quit because I was like there's no future in this company and then ended up becoming an entrepreneur and doing my own thing, which is, I mean, a whole other. It's difficult, obviously, but a whole other situation. I just know that if I'm talking to like my employees, I know fight for like the money, but then the way you get the real raise is by going to another job. Job hopping is this thing. And the 80s, they did not. They wanted corporate ladder. We had a whole episode on this with my friend who's another. finance creator. She has job hopped like every year and a half, two years and literally like 20, 30, 40% increases every fucking time. Because I can't get 80 from you and then the next year would be like, I want 120. You'd be like, you're fucking crazy. But I can get 80 from you and then

go to another company and say, I get paid 100. I want 120. You have more negotiating power when you first start a job than you will ever have during your entire time there. Yeah, because once you start, isn't it just like increments of like 10K basically? Typically. Yeah. Well, and the thing is, too, is it's one of those things where it's just like it's it's oh we want you we got you and then people think oh loyalty pays right that's another thing especially women is it's like I will do my job and I'll show up and I'll be a really good employee and I won't raise my hand and I won't do anything but they'll see me they'll see me and loyalty be rewarded my best friend was at a company for eight years I can't even tell you how much shit went down oh

company and literally was like they were asking her to come to work and she's like I can do my job remotely what are you doing yeah and they were like sorry and so basically she was forced to quit she quit in her two weeks as her you know going through everything they opened her job with a better title and 20K more how does it make sense it doesn't it doesn't I had a job that I was working like full weekends because I loved it so much and it was like I it was I was I started this like department basically doing video and then they basically I was like they couldn't give me a raise so I was like can I have a title change and they're like you don't run this and I was like what thank you that's a great thing though I talk about negotiating for when salary doesn't

happen like what are the things because at least I can tell my next person like I was this look at you I mean it didn't it they basically well then I realized that they were like you're not anyone's boss here you're not this and I was like because there's sometimes the bosses are so disconnected from what's happening day to day in your department and the ego of titles and then I realized I was like wait if I'm like I was at this company where I was I had sales experience so I was not only getting on the phone with brands to sell brands for them of what video is going to make for them yeah cast the video make the video act in the video edit the video and my salary was less was half and one of these videos was worth and I was doing like 40 of them and that's why I'm where I am now

because I go, wait, I could have done that for myself. Yep. And you fucking did. And I did. But, and to them, it's like, okay, you don't think I'm doing this? Well, now I'm just going to put the money in my own pocket. But when you're 25 and 26, you're scared. I thought I was going to do that job my whole life.

I'm like, this is my favorite job I ever had. Yeah. And then you become disillusioned. And then you realize, like, oh, I'm there. See, but I'm, like, jaded where, like, I can never work for the man. The man is looking more and more appealing to me. I'm going to be honest with you. It's very interesting.

I won't go back, but like, entrepreneurship's fucking hard. You all are vicious in the comments. People are so many. Oh, well, that's being a public profile. Yeah, and it's also just like, I have a team. I am so. You need to be out of the comments. Oh, yeah, that's easier said than done.

I'm trying to be. Yeah. I also then feel bad that somebody else has to read them. It is one of those things, though, where I'm just like, it would be really, really nice. to shut my laptop at five, in theory, on a Friday, and not have to worry about work again until Monday. Oh, yeah. I can't remember. I, like, work on weekends because I'm a stand-up. Oh, not just, but literally, like, the 20 thoughts before I fall asleep at night are all about the business. So some people say that a salary is more addicting than a heroin addiction.

Wow. That a monthly salary is more. For me, it's not money. We're making great money. Like, that's not the problem. lifestyle. It's just the feeling all the time of just like, it's also, it's my ambition. This is a conversation that I'll have with my therapist. But like, no, this is good. It's about like, my ambition is the reason I am where I am. Like, I, I want, you know, books and a TV deal. And I want to sell out stadiums on a speaking tour. And I want everybody to know my name. And then there's a part of me that's like, I want complete anonymity. You want to be on a farm in Wyoming. I want a cabin. I want a cabin in Wyoming's great. Sure. Jackson. Like literally I want no one to know my name. I want like adopt dogs.

I think you get successful enough that you can do that in peace. Well, the goal is in the meantime to have something in the middle because I know that like all of anonymity will not make me happy and all of like public person will also not make me happy. So I'm trying to find the medium. But my ambition in way is like a fucking drug. Like I do feel like sometimes I overdose. For sure. To the point where I'm just working so hard and I'm like, oh, well, I need to get this thing and I need Oh, I'm on this platform. And then you're like, other parts of your life are suffering, even though you're like, I'm making money.

Totally. I'm doing all the, checking all the corporate boxes or whatever I wanted to do. But I would say part of once you get some success and if you're in the public eye, like, part of the job is handling the hate. Yeah. And like I was in a unique place where I have a husband who's very like good with that stuff where he basically was like, you're not allowed to read the comments. And I'm like, it's a car crash.

I want to, because it's a dopamine hit. It's like emotional cutting, they call it. Once you learn that you don't have to read it is another, like, world that you get to because I haven't Google myself in two years. And I'm not particularly like, oh, I Google myself every day. No, you can't. It's not even about, it's like, did somebody write an article about me that I need to, we need to reshare on social media? Like, it's that. Yeah, but it's almost like now that you have people to do that.

Yeah. You detach yourself because the second reading stuff about yourself or seeing stuff about yourself affects your, creativity, they win. The second you're like, I don't want to say that, I don't want to do this, because then you're not being yourself, and then you're shell yourself, and then you hate yourself. That's been me for the past couple months. So, I'm not, it's, you're right, you will see stuff accidentally. It's really helpful. But I don't mean to be a bitch, but I'm telling you. Stop. Nope. You have to. Don't do that. Don't do that shit. Don't, no. You're not being a bitch. You are, you are giving me really good advice. Well, it's the one thing I wish people

had told me that I didn't have to read the comments. Part of me, I was a social media manager, and also part of TikTok, right, is responding to comments, right? And so it's like part of that culture of like, I don't see the great things. Like, people literally every five minutes being like, I paid off my student loans because of you. Yes. I like, you know, we miss part of that too.

I just have to, I haven't found the balance of it. Yeah, but it's, when it first happens and you're not burned too much, you're like, this is fine. We're playing in the water. We're having fun. Right, right. It's almost like you have to get really burned to be like, I can't go that place. And I got really burned.

recently. Yeah, yeah. I know, but it's literally just like, it's a very pattern that everyone does. Yeah. Question to you about back to finances. Sure. If why, because you'll say stuff about investing. You'd be like if you invest this much money to that. Uh-huh. Why aren't people teaching us this in high school? Oh, how much time do you have? Okay. Because I can retain information. I would like to know in high school that if you take your money and put it in this, it will do this. Okay, let me talk about the pros and cons of that. So, pros is there's education happening, right, in a way that I think would be really, really helpful. There are some states, I have a friend of mine who's the budgetista, and she's a fellow finance expert,

and she got a law passed, I believe, in all of New Jersey that requires financial education, which is so fucking cool. So, yes, learning education, openness, that's great. The con, though, one, where's the funding going to come from? What curriculum's going to be taught? Dave Ramsey curriculum better not be fucking taught in schools. It's already taught. That's the default curriculum. He's your arch nemesis. I hate him.

Yeah, I know. He is a evangelical, judgmental Walmart Santa. And I do not like him. Yeah. And there's many problematic things about his work. But like that is the default curriculum for many, many places. So it's kind of like sex ed. You're so right.

It's like, it'll be worse. My sex ed was abstinence-only education. Yeah. Right. And I'm not sure how helpful that actually was. Potentially is hurtful. Right. So when we do think about personal finance, like we call it the fallacy of financial literacy. Like people think like, oh, we just need to talk about money more in schools. But the other con is like, if you put a precalculus test in front of me right now, I couldn't do it. I have no idea.

You learn what you need to learn in high school for the test and then you dump it. You're right. You dump it. You're right. Now there's certain classes or certain teachers, right, that are super powerful and effective and that you remember. But it's really hard. I literally just spoke at a school. And that was the most...

I've spoken in front of, like, thousands of people. That was the most terrifying. It was 12, like, 17-year-olds. And that was the most nervous I've been in years. No, so scary. But literally, I'm like, if I gave you $100 right now, what would you do with it? And they're all, like, spend it. I'm like, yeah, obviously.

Like, obviously. And that might be pretty accurate if you have somebody in their 20s, too. But it's like, you're not making a salary yet. You don't fucking give a shit what a Roth IRA is. Like, you don't care. Now, I think 17-year-olds do need to understand

the student loan process and paying for college because if we're asking 17-year-olds to sign on a dotted line was the John Mullaney bid. $120,000 if you have the audacity? If we're asking them to do that,

they need to fully understand that decision. But it's just, it's one of those things that is floated as the answer to general systemic oppression, right? Racism, ableism, sex, and homophobia, you know, trillion-dollar student-grap crisis. It keeps people, like, down. Those are the things that are actually affecting people on a daily basis. Like, lack of minimum wage increases, housing at an all-time high, lack of paid family leave,

lack of fucking abortion access. Like, those are the things financially that affect people. And yes, financial education, I think, is part of that equation, but it's way smaller than everybody thinks it is. I also think about just the concept of, as a New Yorker, there's the concept of the finance bro, and there's just hordes of them. Chad. There's tons of them.

It's like these guys get out of college. Yeah, like, you know, their dad's in finance. They want to be in finance. And I know there's a lot of amazing women that are going into it too. But like, if you think about the amount of men who are finance bros and then are making, I guess, these decisions about money.

Can I talk about that for a second? Yeah. Okay. You don't need a finance Chad to save you. you do not need a finance chad to save you we have been fed this lie then investing's difficult i'm like literally i'm like you have been fed a lie that the stock market is complicated yeah it is not fucking complicated truly it's not yeah you've been fed this one to make sure that the chad still have jobs and to inflate their own ego because if they're like oh don't worry about stocks it's like

it's it's really complicated don't you like i can i can handle it for you yeah don't give your money to a man to manage ever yeah and if like you just need somebody to sit down with you you you and teach you. This is why I do the work that I do is literally like I sit down with women and help them invest themselves because you can and should do it because you're paying somebody else an exorbitant amount of fees. Again, typically a guy named Steve or Chad or Josh and they are statistically underperforming in their investments compared to you doing it yourself. Women are better investors than men. Wow. Statistically. But women don't invest at the same rates men do. Yeah. And when they think, oh my God, it's so complicated, I need somebody else to do it,

the only people to turn to, again, statistically, are the 95% of financial professionals who are men. So I'm just like, you can manage your money yourself. You don't need a finance Chad to save you. You just need somebody to guide you, whether that's me or somebody else. Yeah. But like, don't give your harder money to somebody to take over your money just because you're like, I don't know what to do. It seems complicated. That is a lie you've been fed. And it goes into like, that is amazing. Sorry, I'm like off my soapbox. It's just, it drives me.

It's amazing. It's amazing. No, because I'm like, I miss is like, I mean, I actually was good at math and stuff. I wasn't, like, I was good at math, but I was never, I just didn't care about like learning about, it's the same thing. It's like why some funny women are like, but I don't care it again to stand up and have to deal with all that bullshit. Right. Well, and it's the other thing is like people think, oh, if I'm not good with math, I'm not good with money. And that's a whole other thing about how we raise girls.

We tell them, you're good with English, you're good with writing. You're not good at math. Yeah. And I will also say, I'm a theater major, guys. I studied theater in college. That's amazing. And I'm a finance expert. Like, numbers are my thing really either.

It's not about numbers when it comes to money. It's about your life. Like, that sounds so, like, woo-woo. But, like, think about any goal you want to achieve, right? You have to picture how your life is different once you've achieved that goal. It's not about numbers in a spreadsheet. It's about, like, what does it feel like to wake up every morning and know that you don't owe anybody? any money. What does it feel like to know that 65-year-old grandma you is drinking Sauvblanc with

lunch and flirting with her younger Pilates instructor named Luca? Because she has the money to do. That is my real life retirement plan. Like that is the feeling I want for every fucking woman. What is the feeling of waking up in the morning and being like, I get to choose what I do today? Or if I want to leave this relationship, I can. Like, that is the feeling I want. And that's what money can buy you, right? And it's not about math. It's about like your emotions. It's about how you feel. It's about how you view money, how you view people with money, how you view the pursuit of money. Like, that is what it's about. It's not about how good you are at Excel.

One final question. Do I look at any of my questions for you? I remember some of them I talk to you. Wait, can I ask you one more thing? Yes, talk to me. Let's say we've made some money. Yeah. What is the first thing you do with it?

Great question. Have a whole chapter in my book about this. First thing, emergency fund. Three months of living expenses in a high-yield savings account. tattoo H-Y-Y-S-A on my forehead I talk about them so much

their everyday savings accounts except they're going to offer you more an interest. We have the one we recommend on our website,

but literally it's just like making sure that you have money in the bank should something happen. The reason we do that first before paying off any debt

is because, again, we want something in the bank, we don't want to go into debt trying to pay for an emergency and we want the ability to say fuck off

if we don't want a situation anymore. There's so much power and also like stability in knowing like my head hits the pillow, something happens tomorrow, I'm fine, or at least for a period of time. So, emergency fund is number one priority. Second priority is starting to pay off credit card debt because it's really expensive.

It's over 15% in interest, typically somewhere in the 20s. And again, it doesn't sound like a lot until you're in it and you're like, holy shit. I have a lot of resources around paying off debt. We have a whole chapter in paying off debt on the book, too. But the biggest thing is we know from statistics that women get into debt more frequently because they do not understand how a loan works. And that's not because they're stupid, but because nobody sat down and explained it to them. So debt, very simply put, there's principle and interest. Principle is like the original amount of money you took out, right?

So if you put $10,000 in a credit card, that is the principal. The interest is like the deal with Ursula, right? It's like, what are you kidding? What are you having to pay in exchange for that? And then the interest compounds. So when you don't pay off your full balance, right, of student loans or whatever, your interest typically compounds, which means that's why debt. feels like you're drowning because every time you try to get ahead, right? It's like, oh, I have to

keep paying interest and pain interest and pain interest. So credit cards. Then number three, so you did your emergency fund, you got your credit card debt paid off. You're going to start investing for retirement. You're going to start opening something like a Roth IRA, which is an individual retirement account or working with your 401k if you're a corporate girly and balancing pain off your lower interest debt, things like your student loans, your car loan, your mortgage, things like that. And then while you're doing that, start saving for what I call like the big life stuff. So getting married, buying house, getting a new car, starting a business, retiring early. And that's kind of the order of operations. So we start with like emergency fund. The information you just

dropped was quality premium top notch. I appreciate it. So yeah, it's that is the one I say this all the time is like personal finance is personal. Like everybody has a different like personal finance experience. Everybody's money's different. Everybody's goals are different. However, that order of operations is the order of operations for anybody listening because it like, it has to be done in that order. And there's so many people who are so kind in their message me and they're like, but I have $120,000 of student loans. And I'm like, I get it feels overwhelming. But I need you to have an emergency fund first for many, many reasons. Like I need you to get the quicker win of like, cool, I have money in the bank should something happen. And then that like feeling of

momentum will just snowball and you'll just keep going. Wow. Wow. That's fucking incredible. Hey, thanks. I love what I do. Wait, can I ask you one more question? Yes, yes. What do you think about the like abundance theory with money? Like the more you spend, the more you can make. Like the kind of woo-woo concept. I am more woo-woo than I used to be. I worked with an energy coach a couple years ago for the first time. And I was like, this is good for me. Yeah, I was like, this is good for me. I just hear a lot of things with money where they talk about money manifestation and abundance theory and that kind of shit. There was a post that I saw, I will not name the publication, but I called them out so hard. They had one of these money experts who was not like myself and others and was an actual money expert.

They were like, yeah, bring abundance into your life. And they literally, the advice they gave was like, carry $200 a cash with you at all times for like normal purchases. And they're like, and to attract abundance, keep $300. in a separate pocket. And I was like, okay, I will lose that immediately. Or you'll get mugged. Like, you're telling women walk around with- Also, who has cash on them? I literally never carried cash. $500. And $300 you're never going to touch. So the privilege of that of just you can have $300. Two, it's fucking stupid. Put that in a savings account and earn money on it or invest or do something. And three, you're either going to lose it, yeah, or you're going to get your

purse taken. That makes no fucking sense. No, you're going to have a knife to your fucking throat. Like, that's just not smart. So there's a, there's a line of crossing woo-woo too much in terms of the money stuff. And it's also, this might, this might be controversial. I think it's, I think it's, that is the kind of finance that we're okay with women talking about. Oh, yeah. No, I see that for sure. Like, we're okay with like money and man.

Oh, it's just, yeah. Like, abundant, I do believe in abundance versus scarcity, 100%. Money, money masturbation manifestation. I want to be a millionaire. No, but, like, it's, I think that that is what we are socially comfortable, both as women and viewing other women doing, doing the, like, chance and the mantras. And, like, if that works for you, great, but if it is not coupled with actual saving and investing in goal setting, it doesn't fucking matter. And I also think people like Rihanna being a billionaire, we need to see that in the public, in the media. Growing up when you only see old white men having money, that does something to your brain.

So it's like having more women like you being like, yeah, I have money and this is how I got it. Yep. And let's talk about it. Again, if you take anything away from my work, and this is why I love talking to folks like you from all walks of life, right? Like my podcast is called financial feminist. And the amount of times I've pitched people to be on the show and they're like, well, I'm not finance experts. And I'm like, no, everything is about money. You want to talk about comedy, right?

It's about money. It's about like, how much are you making compared to everybody else? How do I make a living out of this? How do I navigate? Like, and really, it's feminist. Like, money is inherently feminist, right? If we look at it from that lens. You want money, like, money gets you, again, everything.

So it's if you are not embracing it as a tool, that's all it is. It's a tool. It's a tool for you to build a life that you want. It's not, it shouldn't be the reason you can't have things. It should be the reason you pursue it in. instead. And if money is controlling you rather than you controlling it, we need to flip that relationship. Right. And we need to have so many conversations. And we need to be as transparent as we can, especially if you're a member of a marginalized group. Because representation is

representation matters. But truly, it's also about, like, I want to share hard numbers so that you can walk in and also get paid what you're worth because I paved the way for you or I was shepherding you into that conversation. Yes. And if you're a business owner, how dare you pay a demand a certain number and have a woman doing the same job. And because she didn't ask for it. Yeah. I couldn't sleep at night. Yeah. Or a black person or like what or a disabled person. Right. Right. Right. It's like it's grinds my ears. So it. It's from all angles. People need to fucking get it together. And we also need to support policies that protect people. Yeah. Yeah. Because I say this in my book, 20% of the personal finance equation is your own choices. Yeah. That's all that gets talked about, right? If you're not rich, you're not working hard enough. And it's like,

no, that's not it. No. Yes. Get your budgeting together, get your Roth IRA together. Control the things you can control and then vote and protest and support legislation that has much more of the 80% that's going on with your money versus the 20% you can control. I have one final question. For people who are, I use in quotes, cheap, frugal. I'm a little, you know, because I'm a little cheap and frugal. My friend wants to tell me, It was like, if you hold too tight to money, it, like, it won't expand. Like, you have to, like, be, like, free with it. That's another woo-woo thing that I was talking to my friend about.

But, like, that one I think has more weight. Do you have any advice for cheap people? Well, there's a difference, right? There's, like, there's the, I'm living paycheck to paycheck, but you still have a Netflix account. Yeah. Right. There's some people who are like, oh, I'm living paycheck to paycheck. And that's just because either they're, like, so good with their money that they put

everything in savings. Like, there's some people who say, I'm living paycheck to paycheck, but it's because money goes in saving. or because they're like spending money on things that they don't like. And so they're like, I'm living paycheck to paycheck. You can fix that. And then there's the people who are honest to God living paycheck to paycheck where I actually don't have an answer for you.

That sucks, but that's where the systemic change has to happen. My default is like cheap and frugal. And I actually just record an episode of my show about all of the times I regret that because. Oh, I love that. I literally, this happened last month. I was like flying. I did an event in Chicago.

I spoke at a conference. And then we had a week off. we do like quarterly weeks off at my company. And I was like, oh, I'll go to Miami. I'd never been in Miami. And I had booked this Airbnb that was clean and fine and like, whatever. You could walk to the beach, but it was 20 minutes away, which fine. But I got there and that was not the experience I wanted.

This was my week off after like a bunch of book promotion. And for like $200 more a month, you could have had such a better experience. That. Yeah. I could see the beach from this side. But if I turn this way, fucking Walmart down below. And I was like, this was not the vibe I wanted. And if, yeah, it wasn't like, I was, like, it wasn't four seasons or Airbnb.

But they could be tricky because from the photos, you're like, this is perfect. Sometimes I say, truly, it was not, it was my fault. You know what you're paying for. It was, it wasn't even like the Airbnb, but it was bad. It was like, I cheaped out. Yeah. And got there and was like, had this expectation of what my experience was going to be. Yeah.

And then I was so angry at myself. I think it's prioritizing, like, what actually will fulfill you and that you want to invest in versus you're like, I don't need. And people are very different with like some people are like, I need to fly first class to enjoy. But again, I talk about this too is it's like you don't have to stop spending money, but I need you to stop spending money on shit you don't care about. So you can spend money on the shit you do. But in terms of cheap or frugal, I would say that some of that is actually really helpful. Right. It's part of why maybe you can save and you feel financially stable. But there is an element of trauma with that sometimes. Or self-hate. Right. Where it's just, we see this a lot

with first-gen or women of color is it's like, I don't know when my next paycheck's coming. So I'm going to save everything and I'm going to deprive myself of everything joyful. Yeah. And like that isn't, that isn't it. Yeah. Like we have to again find like, how do I save for future me? How do I save for my goals? And also still travel and still go out to eat and still have what we want now. So I would say some frugality I think is really good. But there was this whole movement that was like, it's called the fire movement. And it's been commandeered now by women of people color, which is great. But the early days of fire were these tech bros making $150,000, but they would be like, I don't use toilet paper. And like, that's how I save money.

Oh, and I think I've heard this. And I was just like, they're like, I bike to work. And I'm like, cool. You want me to bike at 5 p.m. where it gets dark? I love those memes, too, that are like, I stop buying chai lattes and now I own a house. Right, right, right. And that's, again, we could talk about hours, but that's another narrative we're fed is. Again, the frivolous spending. as of like the lattes, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I live in Seattle, you live in New York, good luck buying anything. Also, if your latte brings you joy in the morning, you drink that fucking latte. Drink the fucking latte. Life is so goddamn hard. If that is the thing that keeps you going, great. It's also, it's $6.00. If we want to do the math, six times $365, that is not a down payment on a house in any major U.S. city. Not even fucking close.

Just buy your latte. Thank you so much for coming on Burning in Hell And thank you for having me I'm sorry that I spent the whole time asking you questions No, it's great I hope my audience is like okay Yes I hope people are okay

Which is what ended up being I want to ask you questions I don't want you to feel like I'm not fascinated by your life In the future Okay great I will and we'll talk at you Okay great I love that

I'll force you to hear my stories But no you're just so fascinating And amazing I talk to you Where can people follow you by your book See you Financial Feminist is the podcast

in the book It's a New York Times bestseller Which I love saying I will never Stop saying it I work so fucking hard Available wherever books are sold

And then I'm at Her First 100K And I'll have you plug away Her First 100K Oh yes I'm I have a podcast called Burning Hell Giggly Squad

It's more pop culture Come to my stand-up shows Hannaburn.com And check me out on TikTok I'm coming to Seattle I'm coming to Seattle Check me out on TikTok

And Instagram's At Hannah burner Amazing Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.