Betrayal - Behind Betrayal with ABCNews Studios

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Hey Betrayal listeners, Andrea here! To celebrate the release of Season 3 of the docu-series Betrayal: Under His Eye, we’re doing something a little different. In this bonus episode, I have an exclusive conversation with a few of the people at ABCNews Studios who helped Betrayal become a hit TV series on Hulu. Once you’ve listened, check out the series we all brought to life. Betrayal: Under His Eye is available to stream NOW only on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. All three episodes are available to binge! On this bonus episode, I’m joined by ABCNews Executive Producer Muriel Pearson, Head of ABCNews Studios Mike Kelley, and Glass Entertainment Group's Executive Producer Jon Hirsch to talk about how the Hulu docu-series came to be as well as some behind-the-scenes details of how the show is made. We also discuss how my guests decide if a podcast would work well for TV, the importance of bringing these stories to a broader audience, and how the true crime genre has evolved to let women tell their own stories — not just as victims, but as survivors. To watch me have this conversation with my guests, as well as access more conversations with Ashley, Stacey, Karoline and the Betrayal team not on this feed, subscribed for FREE today to Beyond Betrayal, the official Substack community of Betrayal.  And if you have a story you’d like to share with us, email us at [e-mail]. And if you’re a paid Substack subscriber, join us in the chat!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Big news. Betrayal is having our first ever live show. And it'll be at sea. This October 10th through 15th, join me and the betrayal team for a live taping of the show on the True Crime podcast crews

with Virgin Voyages. It's five nights of connection, true crime, and community. All on a luxurious adult-only ship. It's going to be great. And the thing I'm most excited about is the chance to meet some of you. Book your spot now and come sleuth at sea with me

at virgin voyages.com slash true crime. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes,

My boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Oh, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast

and the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TW. a terminal, just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged. Terrorism.

Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is hands tied. A true crime podcast, exploring the murder of Jim Melgar. I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered.

And her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting. Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. I'm back today with John Hirsch, the executive producer and director of Betrayal, the docu-series. Hi, Dre. Thanks so much. It's great to be back here with your audience. I'm really excited about today's episode because we have two of our amazing colleagues from ABC News Studio here with us, Muriel Pearson and Mike

Kelly. Hi, guys. But I want you to go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience and also to the host of betrayal, Andrea Gunning. I know. It's so nice to meet you guys. Hey, Andrea, it's nice to see you. I'm Mike Kelly. I lead the team here at ABC News Studios. And Andrea, I'm Muriel Pearson.

I'm the executive producer in the ABC News Studio side. He's been working valiantly with John on this amazing series. Yeah, thank you for all you do. I hear your names all the time. Obviously, I'm super involved in the creative and like everything that goes in on the podcast, but I'm mostly on set and doing like

interviews for the TV shows. So I don't get a lot of the posts and like, so I don't really get to see you guys. So it's really nice to spend this time and I really am appreciative. I have a ton of questions because we've never really chatted before. If you guys don't mind, I would love to just dive in. Let's jump in. So I'm so curious. I mean, I obviously love betrayal.

I'm betrayal all the way. But where did the initial idea to turn the podcast? into the docu series come from? Like, how did that start? Well, we have a small team of people focused on developing new ideas, and they're, like, constantly scouring the marketplace for IP that resonates with audiences. And so it didn't take a lot of investigating for them to find Betrayal Podcasts, but it was so huge out of the gate, right?

Big, gigantic hit. And then, you know, around that time that our team sort of found Betrayal as fans, I think the Glass team came and had a general introduction with us. And we quickly decided there's a real partnership to be had here. And so, you know, after a bunch of conversation, decided to say, yeah, let's adapt this into a television program. How do you guys know when a podcast has the potential to be a successful TV series? I think if a podcast is successful in its own right, it's obvious that there's interest in the story. But not every podcast automatically lends itself to visual or television adaptation.

right, to be successful on TV, just like a podcast, you need an amazing story first and foremost, but you also need characters that are visually compelling. You need an archive to bring the history and the background of the story to life. And if it's true crime, you need kind of the police force, the investigative team to help bring that side of the story to life, too. You know, sometimes people are only willing to participate in the audio format and they're not willing to appear on camera, so you have to have that piece too. So it's all those different pieces have to come together to turn a really,

really successful audio story into great television. There's probably other things that Muriel and John could add. Well, I would actually speak specifically to betrayal, Dreya, because there is no question that this topic we instantly recognized would be have an incredible resonance with our audience. You know, a lot of the people who are in our audience, I mean, we look at the demos, and it's a predominantly female audience. And this idea of trust broken, of double lies,

of a betrayal of what there's a most intimate thing that you could possibly imagine is incredibly appealing to that audience because, you know, people look at these stories and they try and see parallels with their own lives. And I think particularly with betrayal, and you know this because of the podcast, people have resonance with this because this has happened to them. and the many, many women that you guys have profiled and the ones that we've profiled here, I mean, the response that we get is that emotional response to how do other people respond to this thing that, honestly, they sometimes think they're all alone in, that they alone have been betrayed and that there's a kind of comfort in knowing that you're not alone and to share that experience.

So we knew that from the beginning with betrayal that it would be successful. Yeah, that really speaks to the community that's developed over the last several years as betrayals become bigger and bigger. And it speaks to the type of feedback that we get both on the podcast side and on the television side from, you know, listeners, from viewers who they see themselves in these people. They see the parallels and that relatability obviously goes a long way. But it's also, it's really refreshing. And it's, this is one of the reasons why we love you guys as partners is the

understanding and acknowledgement of the challenges of taking a podcast and turning it into a television show, that willingness of participants, the archive that needs to be strong, the investigative beats that true crime fans, you know, kind of want to latch into. And, you know, having all those ingredients to come together in something that someone will watch for three consecutive episodes, it's not an easy task. And it's been a lot of fun. It's been a big challenge. But I think we've learned a lot about, you know, what all those ingredients are and how they need to mesh together for these stories to really work. There aren't betrayals with strangers.

This is a thing that's intimate that happens between people that you love and care about, the people that are closest to you. And so when we're looking at stories for the podcast, it's about the betrayal, but it's equally about the love story. And what you guys do so well with on the TV side, and it's something that I often forget and is usually the most shocking part when I'm watching it, is seeing the love story unfold visually because it's one thing to hear it but with the archival and how you guys built especially in season three with what Justin meant for Stacy and her life in what she was

able to provide her kids and that she had made it I mean it was so well done I mean John and Matt have been real masters at creating that that feeling of intimacy in the edit I mean it all comes down to the beginning in the archive I mean I just think John you guys have done an incredible job in just making the kind of fairy tale that we all dream of that you want that happily ever after that you want to find the perfect man and that's what makes the betrayal so terrible is to see these women finding in very different ways whether it's first love or you know i i went through a few people it didn't work out and here was the guy who changed my life, who made me feel great about myself.

And, you know, that's just, that is the storyline that has been so effective with this and powerful because you totally buy into that. And it's a betrayal because it's the thing that you wanted most and that you felt that you were safe. Stacey felt she was safe for the first time. And she was never in more peril. One of the things we really focus on in everything that we do at ABC News Studios, but betrayal is so emblematic of that is we want to find first person narratives, right? These are

mostly women in the case of betrayal telling their own story from their own perspective, right? And that's what we strive in everything that we do. Either we have the victim or we have the perpetrator in first person. And hopefully we have both, right? So we can tell a really nuanced, complex story. And every season of betrayal, we've been able to do that. And I think that's part of the reason why these have been so successful. Yeah, we always look at it as we want the audience to, you know, be along for the ride the good the good the bad the ugly all those things but but most importantly we look at how we're going to tease the turn and then when we get to the turn we want to make sure that the audience really is rooting for our main character and it's easy to root for stacey

when you when you learn about her backstory and you understand all the things that she went through with her first marriage being a single mom you know the some of the struggles that she went through and then meeting this, you know, this rising, you know, star in the medical field in Justin Rutherford and kind of, you know, having that fairy tale, you know, it's not that we want to just pull the rug out from from under the audience, but we really want them to feel what Stacey felt. And in this case, also what her children, Tyler and Michaela felt and the way that their world had grown into something, you know, that they could be proud of, that they felt so great about. And then it's, it makes it all that much more devastating when the truth starts to come out about

what Justin was doing. And then obviously in this story, there are multiple layers to the way those terrible truths, you know, roll out because, I mean, it's such a sinister story when you step back and look at the whole thing. It's really, really devastating. There isn't a single woman on this earth that can't listen to Stacey. And when she's expressing in episode one, how she feels about herself and her body that doesn't relate. It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what you look like. That is so relatable. And I remember seeing it for the first time and just crying. And you guys just, you immediately have the audience buy in in that moment. It's like, that's the emotional access with the audience of I feel that too. And I'm connecting to Stacey. So that was incredible.

Obviously in season three, Stacey and Tyler's story has difficult themes. And you usually don't see them addressed on TV. It could be taboo. Some people will shy away from it. What made you guys feel comfortable at ABC News Studios to go forward with Stacey and Tyler's story? Were there any concerns, goals that you guys had? You know, there are always concerns when you pull, as you say, out of the place where you've been before. I mean, we've been, we have, the familiar territory is just love betrayed.

But I think that by being presented with a new story that brought it so much deeper, into a family's betrayal, right? It's not just between a man and a woman. It's between a woman and her son and a stepson and her stepfather. We just saw that the possibility of the depths, the emotional depths of that and the exploration of what they can do to a family and on the other side of it, how a family survives it was very interesting. And, you know, I mean, John and I talked about this a lot. I mean, it's story arc is one thing about just what happened. Emotional story arc is something else. And again, I think that is something really unique, Dreya, to your podcast. It gives you an opportunity to go into an emotional storytelling,

story arc, where you understand what the high point was, how you get to the low point, right? Because it's not all at once. You can't really totally. believe, right, that this is happening to you, except that it is, and how you emerge on the other side. It's a real story of self-redemption and family redemption that we found so intriguing and so important, again, because it is something that we think that our audience experiences universally. And we want to be sensitive and careful with victims' stories, too, and how they want to

you know, tell their own story, as I said before. In this case, Stacey is telling from our own perspective, and Tyler is too. And I think having those first person accounts in this circumstance with these difficult stories is really important. Yeah, I remember, Andrea, a conversation that you and I had before you even went into production on the podcast of season three of just how to get into the very difficult nature of this topic and so kind of when and how to reveal certain aspects of it because you have so many layers to it, as I mentioned. I just remember feeling like, yes, these are challenges, but they're also opportunities because you don't see these types of stories on television very often. And when I started, when you shared with me some

of the facts and figures of people who've been through what Tyler went through and how much more common it is that any of us would ever think, you know, it started to become a little less scary and a little less daunting of how we would do this. And then I think the growth that Tyler has shown even from, you know, the early days of production on the podcast to where he, you know, is now. And I think for people who tune into the podcast and then watch the show, they're going to see this kid, you know, 19, 20 years old now, who is just so incredibly strong and has shown so much resilience. And it's a credit to his mom. It's a credit to his entire family. But it's really unique to see someone who's been through what he's been through and under the stress and the

pressure and the emotional turmoil that he's been through to come out and be as strong and as resilient as he is now. It almost like, it flipped in my mind from being like, oh, man, this is scary. This is going to be hard to tell to, you know what, let's lean into our strengths here. We've got an incredibly strong character. Big news. Betrayal is having our first ever live show. And it'll be at sea. This October 10th through 15th, join me and the betrayal team for a live taping of the show on the True Crime podcast crews with Virgin Voyages. It's five nights of connection, true crime, and community, all on a luxurious adults-only ship. It's going to be great. And the The thing I'm most excited about is the chance to meet some of you.

Book your spot now and come slooth at sea with me at virgin voyages.com slash true crime. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m., everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently, the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances, just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay.

Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight. that's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam, maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit.

Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging. out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy?

That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet.

So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. And I'm excited to bring you a brand new season of Betrayal Weekly. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season 1, 2, 3, and Betrayal Weekly and every single episode of Betrayal Season 4 ad free and one week early through the IHart True Crime Plus subscription. available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Plus, you'll get access to other char-topping true crime shows you love like The Real Killer, The Girlfriends, American Homicide, They're In Gone South Street, Burden of Guilt, Murder on Songbird Road, The Idaho Massacre, Paper Ghosts, and more. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. I'm curious what you guys are seeing on your side about, the audience. Do you feel like the audience is changing? Are they becoming more empathetic? Are they

becoming more open to discussing tougher topics? You know, you know, obviously the season involves a story that is make some people recoil. And as a producer, I leaned in. You guys leaned in, you know, are you seeing a change in, you know, the weather here with audience's appetite for stories like these? We definitely see it. In my other life, before I was with ABC News Studios, I was with 2020. So I was deeply into the true crime world. And here's what's interesting. I would say, I mean, you could only almost chart it within the last five years, maybe a little bit more.

People really were less interested in the straight storyline and more interested in the emotional experience. They really did not like the way that there was a much more. old-fashioned, however you're going to term it, a way of looking at the victim as the victim, right? That it was a story about the perpetrator, that it was a story about the how done it, who done it, you know, how was he caught. But that journey of the person, you know, who was, for whom all these terrible things was perpetrated, that was not something that was front and center until somewhat more recently.

I mean, with stories like Gilgo, Beach, right? And that kind of story has kind of risen in popularity because it offers a different bandwidth than just crime. It gives it more complexity because you are exploring, again, an emotional journey. And I think it's fascinating. I think it's partially actually an age thing. I think younger viewers have more interest in a different kind of storytelling. And maybe it's made all of us better storytellers. I love the shift that we're in the middle of right now because having, being a veteran of true crime, it used to be investigative beats, investigative beats, investigative beats.

And that's if you didn't have enough of those and if they weren't deep enough and if they didn't drive the entire narrative, then there was sort of a shying away from those types of stories. But Mike, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's about great first person storytelling. And we've talked about the intimacy. We've talked about being along for that ride. And I think if you've got a great story, you've got a great storyteller, and you've got all these other elements we've talked to, the investigative beats of how the legal side of it unfolded almost become way less important. I mean, they do become way less important. And certainly they have been in the first three seasons of betrayal.

And as a producer, it's been really fun and refreshing to work that way and not be constantly thinking about, okay, do we have excellent? number of investigative beats per act, like, has been the directive for so long in true crime. And it's, and it's, frankly, I think it's a little tired. And I, and I think, yes, the audience is getting younger, but they're also getting more open-minded to being in these more intimate spaces as opposed to just like, let's follow good police work. I mean, in betrayal, you know this better than anyone, Drea, because you have talked to them. This, you talk about the love story, but there's a love story going on between Tyler and his mother. I mean, there's a totally different aspect of it, right, where he makes choices that he might not have made for her

and she feels what she feels because of where she's put him. And how they work that out together because they love each other is something kind of phenomenally amazing and human. He deeply loves his mother and he loves his family as a family guy and he would have, I mean he says it himself. He would have gone to the grave with this information because he didn't want her to lose what she lost. That's how much, that's how much he loved her, you know. And a huge part of our show is not just showing these people's wounded parts, the victim, right? It's about showing them as fully formed human beings and the love there that's in the family and they love that existed there. I'm interested to ask you guys. I mean, I think I just, I spoke to it a little while ago

about, I have my answer, but how did the visual aspect of TV open up this story for you guys even more? Wow, that is so complicated because I was actually going to ask you another question, which is like, because some of these stories have been on podcasts, you know, in your mind, you start thinking, oh, this person must look like this. And I was just talking to my mom about this morning. Like literally, she was like, blown away. Yeah. But I mean, I'm like curious because they have created this physical ethos around these people, which may be quite different. They may not be brunette. They may not be, you know, whatever it is.

But I think it's fascinating. But I don't know. I mean, I think that however they look, and sometimes I think that people lose a little bit by seeing too much, right? But in this case, the person, the people that they weren't. the personalities they were, kind of let all of that once you're introduced to it fall by the wayside, right? And I think there's a magic in like converting the audio and as an audience member, it's just in your imagination, right? What these people look like to then see them for real.

These are real people experiencing real emotions. And like it's just a different kind of empathy, I think, that the audience has for these characters. And when something works in both mediums, it's just an absolute home. run, I think, to be able to get it right on both platforms. You know, one note about the television part of it. John and I, John, you really have been the most amazing partner. I mean, we have had many nerdy conversations about, you know, the technique of it, the television technique of it.

And, you know, there are many ways that you could approach this. But I think John and I really came to a center of wanting the recreation, to be as realistic as possible, which meant simple things like, you know, using natural light, letting the cameras move more like the eye would take you, rather than, you know, setting the cameras on pedestals and having this more stately lit feel. I mean, we really wanted to match the rawness of the emotions with something that would visually match with that. And we talked a lot about it. We really did. And John was sending me samples while he was in the field. I just thought it was great. I mean, it was a wonderful collaboration and developing that look for it.

Well, I appreciate that sort of that little extra push that you guys gave us. I think in the first two seasons, we were with the recreations a little bit more in that dreamlike space, where it felt, it didn't felt necessarily as raw or as real. And I think adding in a lot more handheld camera movement and just sort of making sure that we paid a lot of attention to little things with our angles. But the audience would be amazed and maybe we'll show some, some BTS photos of how many lights it takes to make it look like its natural light. You know, because it's every light in the truck comes out to get that look. But it's fun. And it's a fun challenge for the team. And for me, I mean, my recreation team is amazing, and it's a group of people that I've worked with a lot on various different things, and we have, we have a lot of different techniques that we like, but it was nice to kind of be like, okay, well, here's what we did on season two that we liked. Here's what we think we could do better and take that feedback and apply it to what we did in season three. And now it's like, I can't wait to do this next batch of recrees for what's coming next. You know, just keep making it feel more raw and more real and more connected to the audience.

I have one final question. What do you guys want audiences to take away? from season three anybody you know i'm just going to go back to what i said earlier i mean at the risk of repeating myself i want people to know that they're not alone that it is a universal experience what they're what they're seeing and i also think that um tyler the strength of what Tyler brings to it many, many strengths is not to be afraid of that experience. You know, I think people can be because they are so overcome by shame that they go into themselves because they cannot bear, you know, the fear of sharing that experience. And I do hope that people see this and realize that they should be a little less fearless,

be courageous like Tyler and realize they're not alone. Yeah, it's beautiful. I can't say anything better than that. I know, I'm like, I don't think I have a better takeaway. You just crushed. Yeah. I agree with Muriel. I mean, I think there's a real opportunity here for anybody who sees this

who might be going through something similar to what Tyler has gone through and what the family's been through to just, you know, see that resilient, see that strength and see the fact that, like, by sharing and by digging in in acknowledging what's happened to you and the control that you can take of your life and how much power you really do have when you're feeling powerless is I hope that it inspires people and when I say that I say it with in the back of my mind knowing Anthony Edwards experience that he shared on the podcast and he shares in the show with us having gone through something similar to what Tyler went through and holding on to it for decades and here's

you know, here's, here's for all intents of a person that's a kid, a 19-year-old kid who had the strength that come forward, well, 16 when it came forward. It's really remarkable. It's unbelievable. Well, I tackled everything I wanted to chat with you guys about. I don't know if you guys have any questions for me and John, but you guys are brilliant and so well-spoken. And I'm just grateful for everything, truly grateful. It's been amazing working with this whole entire team. and we have many big plans to come between ABC News Studios and the Glass team. And so we're looking forward to telling the audience more about that in the future, too. Trey, you're an amazing host.

I mean, seeing you in the field with the families, you brought out the best in them. You really did. I mean, I really loved seeing you in the field, and I hope we'll see a lot more of it. Thank you. Big news. Betrayal is having our first ever live show. And it'll be at sea. This October 10th through 15th,

join me and the betrayal team for a live taping of the show on the True Crime podcast cruise with Virgin Voyages. It's five nights of connection, true crime, and community, all on a luxurious adult-only ship. It's going to be great. And the thing I'm most excited about is the chance to meet some of you. Book your spot now and come sluth at sea with me

at virgin voyages.com slash true crime. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes,

my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast and the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport.

The Holiday Rush. Parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, terrorism. Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Liz went from being interested in true crime to living true crime. My husband said, your dad's been killed. This is Hands Tide, a true crime podcast exploring the murder of Jim Melgar. I was just completely in shock. Liz's father murdered, and her mother found locked in a closet, her hands and feet bound. I didn't feel real at all. More than a decade on, she's still searching for answers. We're still fighting.

Listen to Hands Tide on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.