Betrayal - Betrayal LIVE! on Virgin Voyages

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Hear Betrayal’s first-ever live show with Andrea Gunning and our Betrayal storytellers, onboard Virgin Voyages’ True Crime Cruise. We hear updates from Stacey and Tyler, Karoline and her kids. We discuss survivor-centered true crime and what it’s like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast. It’s an emotional and in-depth conversation about the kind of work we do, and what it means to the people who are at the center of it.   If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hello, America's sweetheart Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless, Hillbilly Heist, from Smartless Media, campside media, and big money players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high-functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist. Kind of like Robin Hood, except for the part where he's still,

from the rich and gifts to the poor, I'm not that generous. It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon then just totally muffed up the landing. They stole $17 million that had not bought a ticket

to help him escape. So we're saying like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do? That was dumb. People do not follow my example. Listen to Crimless, Hillbilly Heist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her.

Wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast. So we'll find out soon. This person writes, My neighbor has been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals. And now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder.

I think they might be part of a cult. Hold up. Real life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue, Dakota. Find out how it ends. Listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everybody, it's snacks from the trap nerds.

All October long, we're bringing you the horror. We're kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified. Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die further. And it's the return of Tony's horror show, SideQuest written and narrated by your strength. truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary. And we'll cap it off with a horror movie Battle Royale. Open your free I-Hard radio app and search trapners podcast and listen now. What happens when Reese Witherspoon calls up the king of thrillers, Harlan Coben, and says, let's write a book together. I was asking him basically to let me into his secret

thriller writing world. This week, bookmarked by Reese's book club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller, Gone Before Goodbye. Can you think you're going to read for 10 minutes? And the next thing you know, it's 4 in a morning. Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already in New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone.

It's Andrea. This week, we're doing something a little different. My producer, Monique, and I spent last week at sea with Virgin Voyages, where we produced Betrayal's first ever live show. Stacey Tyler and Michaela from Betrayal Season 3 joined us, as well as Caroline and her kids from Season 4. If you listen to our show, you know that Stacy's husband Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor, including his abuse of his stepson Tyler. And in season four, Caroline's husband, Joel, was caught having sex in his police patrol car. He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including

some that happened while he was on duty. Together, we had an incredible conversation about survivor-centered true crime and what it's like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast. It's an emotional and in-depth conversation about the kind of work we do and what it means to the people who are at the center of it. We hope you enjoy. Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Gunning. I'm the host and producer of Betrayal. I'm Monique. I'm a producer on Betrayal. I'm going to be moderating tonight

so that Andrea can really be in the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry bringing this show to TV, which were on season three of betrayal on Hulu. Just came out last month. When I started this show in 2019, I didn't know if one person would listen,

if two people would listen. I could have never imagined being on a cruise doing our first live show. I know. it's really crazy for those of you that don't know what betrayal is it's a project where we focus on families whose lives have been upended

due to devastating betrayal and we focus on the crime and the aftermath but it's really a show about strength and resilience and so tonight we're going to focus on two families the family from season three which is Stacy Tyler and Michaela's story and the family from season four about Caroline Braga and her kids. For a lot of the survivors we're going to bring out tonight,

this is their first ever time talking about their story to a live audience. And it's a little strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some of the worst things that have ever happened to someone. It can kind of feel like that. You know, true crime crews. But we're really here to celebrate the survivors and the bravery and courage of these families to tell their stories. And that's what we're celebrating.

So without further ado, let's all welcome Stacey, Tyler, and Michaela. Hey, y'all. How are you doing? How are you feeling? Good. Good. Amazing. I'm nervous.

You know, Stacey, the documentary came out a month ago. It seems like a lot of people here are already familiar with her story, are listeners of betrayal. So I want to start with what it was like for you to see your, I see you're emotional right now, what it was like to see your life played back on a true crime documentary. I don't think it was something that I ever thought would happen. It was a little different, seeing it.

I know me and Tyler have had conversations. Like, it wasn't our story. Like, we were like, oh, what's going to happen next? Like, we didn't know. But, yeah, there were some moments that were tough. I think when they went back to the good times or the good times that we thought were, they were a little hard. We were lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews,

so the things that we talked about were not new to us when the documentary came out because we got to sit and be a part of that with each other. so that was good I think that helped us to kind of prepare for what was going to be on TV yeah Tyler what about for you what was it like to see it all together watch it back I mean kind of just like similar to what my mom said a lot of just like oh this looks good like it isn't our story but uh really the biggest thing for me was just finally seeing it in person and like knowing that people would see my face with with me being so young and everything I'd

been through. It's, it's really big to me that I get my story out there and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon and a lot of other men go through these struggles. So it was a really good moment for me. I was really happy to see it in real time. Yeah, and you've already experienced people reaching out to you after the documentary. Yeah, I mean, it's, when it first came out, it was, I couldn't even keep up with all the messages. I mean, there was hundreds a day and still, what, two months later at this point, I'd probably get at least five to ten a day, which is still pretty crazy.

I've had businesses hit me with a job offers to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue telling my story and do some pretty big things, so I'm excited for that. Yeah, we're all so excited for you and proud of you. I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out Uh, yeah, so my stepfather, who you all saw in this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation.

Yeah, yeah, defamation. I made it all up. Oh, yeah. Suing me for defamation because everything I said was a lie. I wish I could show you all the papers. It's a bunch of bullshit. I'm going to be real. I'm blunt. I'm not going to hide who I am.

Thank you, guys. Yeah, but he wants to sue me for coming out and talking, but I hope he knows all that does is motivate me to keep coming. Yeah, Andrea, do you want to talk about that a little bit about the defamation lawsuit and, like, the ways that we see those being used, I think, to manipulate a lot of times storytellers and try to silence people from telling their stories, survivors? Yeah, I just think it was a scared tactic to try to keep Tyler from speaking,

and oftentimes we see perpetrators try to control this story and I think he was used to being in control for a really long time and you know you've got a great attorney and you're working on it. Yep. You know, his lawyer told me

you have to have character to say a defamation of character and we've clearly proven that you don't have character. So, you know, everybody's a jailhouse lawyer. So we knew this was going to happen. He's filing appeals as well because he's throwing anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever. He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long, boo-hoo.

We know that this is something that we're probably going to have to deal with for the rest of our lives because that is his right, I've been told. But, you know, in the end, he just constantly keeps bearing himself. because the district attorney told me the more appeals you file, the more it looks like you show no remorse. So she said every time he does this, it's another nail in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's going to put himself there

for his maximum sentence. We're going to bring your oldest daughter, Michaela, in in a second. But I want to talk about the family decision to participate in first the podcast and then the Hulu documentary. When they reached out to me about the podcast, I immediately talked to Michaela and Tyler about it because it's not my story, it's all of our stories.

I wasn't going to exploit my child by going out and speaking without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this, we do it all together. And it was just something that we felt, I think, that we needed to do for healing and just we wanted to take something like this and turn it into something good. And we knew that that was the only way that we could do it

was to just make people more aware. Because I think when you first have this happened to you, you have so many people come up to you and say, oh my gosh, you know, that happened to me or that happened to my brother or this. And you have no idea how many people you know that have dealt with the same thing. I think we have a lot of broken people in this world.

And I think it's because a lot of people stay silent about these things. So I think our hope was that we could reach a lot more hurting men and just change the world. Yeah, pretty much second. that but yeah going into all this it was just about uh i knew what i had been through um you know searching the web looking things up um as a child going through all this i genuinely thought i was the only boy in the world who knew what this was like and i thought i was the only boy in the world who had went through something like this and that was a big part of the reason why i never talked i

never i never did anything to make a change because i thought this was just my life this was where I was stuck, no one would understand me. But as I've gone throughout this journey, I've shared my story, talked to endless people, I've realized it's, it's an epidemic, to be honest. It's crazy, the amount of men that I've realized who have went through the exact same things I have. They say it's one and six, but with all the people I've talked to, it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more one in four, one in three. You're not alone if you're a man who had been through something like this. And when I was represented the opportunity to come through, do this, use my story to give other men what I didn't have. I couldn't pass it up.

Andre, you've worked on the story now two years, more almost. So, you know, a big part of production, we spend hours and hours and hours and hours. A lot of those moments never make it to air, especially with the Hulu documentary, you're filming a lot of things that never make it to air. So can you tell me about some of those moments? yeah I mean there was one scene that we shot Tyler and that was my favorite scene to do I hate even calling it a scene but it was and we were just like working out and talking about life and where you are now and I've known you for two years and you've grown so much and I think one of the things that you were working on is learning to stop thinking about life in the conditional way

Like, if I do this, then I'll be happy. If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens, I'll be okay. Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse, they go through that. Because that exchange is conditional. It's transactional. And I feel like you've come such a long way to just be present and figure out who you want to be and do what you want to do.

and we talked about that in the scene and that was like my favorite and it didn't make it to air. I think Michaela you have a scene too that you love. Yeah, I had a scene Tyler made a comment to me about how he was very thankful

that I was like the stronghold for our family and that he was very sorry that I was kind of put on the back burner. Like it was just very sweet, very emotional, moment that I think a lot of people needed to see, and that got cut too. Michaela's kind of, I don't want to say a silent victim, but I think that, you know,

all of the focus was really on like Tyler and his healing and what happened to him. And it was a really good moment for us to say to you that, you know, we were sorry that you kind of got faded into the background a little bit because that's what we were. never anyone's intention, you know. So it was a sweet moment between everybody and we were really sad when the documentary came out. We were like, man, that was such a good moment. Yeah, like your mom was saying, you know, your part of this story can sometimes get overshadowed, but if it was not for you, we might not be sitting here. So can you tell me a little bit about reporting to the police what that experience was for you? Yeah. So for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend,

who is, I guess, we'll call him, for lack of better terms, the first victim, he reached out to me and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this to him. And, like, full disclosure, I was driving and I opened the message and immediately started, like, bawling. And of course, like, 40 million things are going through my head. One thing being, this is why you don't text and drive. But, I mean, so I pulled over, had like a two-minute cry, and then I was like, work mode. At the time, I worked at an outpatient psychiatry office, so I was like a mandated reporter, and so I immediately went to work mode and was like, okay, these are the steps I need to do, and I'm going to do them.

I do not care that he is my stepdad. I don't care who the fuck he is. And now the scary part, I guess, for me was that this was different. At work, I just make a report. But here, he was already under investigation for the cameras. And so I was like, okay, I feel like I need to talk to a detective or something. Like, I don't know. It was just like something in my brain didn't care that he was a father figure to me.

it was like, let's get this done, let's do the right thing. And then that next few hours moved really quickly. Yeah, so I drove about an hour and a half or so to the police station. And then when I got there, I gave them my phone. They took all the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend. And then they were like, oh, well, while you're here, let's go through this. binder and they opened it and it was photos of friends family anything you can think of in the bathroom they had me identify everybody and then they whipped out another binder and that binder

was all me I saw my husband on some photos and then after that I left I called mom immediately she's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm leaving work, I'm grabbing my kids, and we're going. And I was like, well, I have a tiny little one-bedroom apartment, but you could stay with me, poor Tommy. He didn't even know any of this because it was like so fast. Everything's happening that I didn't get time to tell him until he was already off work. And I was like, hey, by the way, mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little. Surprise. Right. Like our tiny little 900 square foot one-bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days, tried to help mom with the kids, tried to figure life out, and then Tyler came forward. Yeah. We're going to talk

more about that time period and kind of like survival mode and how all that gets represented in true crime stories. But I also want to talk about your position as the eldest daughter and Tyler's big sister. Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then getting to the place where he is today. Yeah, absolutely. Just watching him help other people is something that I can't even explain to anybody what kind of feeling that is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a long time. Yeah, yeah.

Well, thank you. What about for you, Stacey, watching Tyler go on this journey over the past few years with the show? What has that been like for you as a mom? I don't think anybody can ever understand what betrayal did for us. You know, we had a lot of people say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want to share that? Or why do you want to go national with that and this and that? And I had those moments, especially when people can be very cruel online and judge.

But I think seeing him grow and also just seeing the men that have came behind him and said, you know, I'm 50-some years old and I've never told anybody this in my life. There are people that are free because of you and I'm incredibly proud to be your mother. And I don't care what anybody says and I don't care, you know, if someone thinks I did something wrong,

I think I did things wrong. I promise you, if I was watching my documentary I would have been like, hmm, girl, I would have talked shit about myself. It's true. When you're in those kind of moments, you know, you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos. But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom. Well, thank you, guys.

He still don't take the trash out enough, though. We could work on that. She's lying. In the new podcast, Hell in Heaven, two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder. Not once. People went wild. Not twice.

Stunned. But three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each. other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular, circular home, high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it. They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts. Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

you get your podcasts the crying wolf podcast is the story of two men bound by injustice of a city haunted by its secrets and the quest for redemption no matter the price white victim female pretty wealthy black defendant Chicago a white woman's murder a black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit I had 90 years for killing

somebody I have never seen. He says the police are his friends, and then that's it. They turn on it. A corrupt detective. How he was interrogated the techniques. That's crazy. A snitch and a life stolen. They got the wrong guy. But on the inside, Lee Harris

finds an ally in his Selly, Robert, who swears to tell the truth about what happened to Lee and free his friend. If you're with me, your goal to I'll take care of you. I'm going to be with you. You stuck with me for life. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast, starting on October 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The forces shaping the world's economies and financial markets can be hard to spot. Even though they are such a powerful player in finance, you wouldn't really know that you are interacting with them. And even harder to understand. Donald Trump's trade war, 2.0, is only accelerating the approach. of de-dollarization, which in a way is jargon for people turning away from the dollar. That is where the big take from Bloomberg podcast comes in, to connect the dots. How unusual is a deal like this? Unprecedented.

Every weekday afternoon, we dive deep into one big global business story. The biggest story of the reaction of the oil market to the conflict in the Middle East is one of what has not happened. Katie, you told me that ETFs are your favorite thing. They are. Explain that. Why is that the case? and unpack what it means for you. Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples,

and so they sort of become outsized indicators of inflation. Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I live below a cult leader, and I fear I've angered her. Well, wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon.

This person writes, My neighbor's been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals, and now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult. Hold up, Sophia, a real-life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue.

But according to this person, contractors are tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with their ceiling, and her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them. Asap. She did. And now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time. So do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. We took a short break to bring out Caroline Berega from season four along with her two kids.

Her daughter Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the audience. to protect his anonymity. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Caroline, you know, I want to hear a little bit in your words about what you went through. It was an infamous Monday afternoon. I was at work, and I opened my laptop,

and I was in an online meeting, and I saw my phone go off. There was a chime, and I saw that there were cameras around our house and that there was some movement. And as I looked at it, I noticed that my now-ex-husband was dragging up the trash cans, and I thought to myself, oh, that's strange. I wonder what he's doing home so early. Maybe he was out on an investigation or something happened, and he just ran by to grab some lunch, and I continue to watch.

And then it dawned on me. Where's his take-home cop car? The take-home cop car wasn't in the driveway. And so I texted him, and I said, hey, is everything okay? And he didn't respond. and, hey, is everything okay? I noticed that you're home really early, and I just continued to watch the little dots,

the three ellipsies on my phone bounce. And finally he responded, and he said, no, everything's not okay. I've fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in my life. You're going to want to divorce me. And I was scared, and I thought, you know, what happened? And so after several attempts, he finally answered the phone, and he was very stoic about it and just let me know what he did.

and I was able to maintain my composure, I gently closed my laptop, and then I walked out and I made it to a street corner before I just completely lost it, and I said, what have you done? And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. Caroline, you have to tell the kids. Reporters are going to start calling the house, you have to tell the kids. And I didn't know what to do. I drove home. I don't remember driving home, and when I got to the house, I was just kind of pacing and Nicole came home and she was very jovial, her typical self and she said, hey, who did my job for me? Who brought the trash up today? I mean, it's ironic the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I just sat there staring at her and she said,

are you okay? And I said, is daddy okay? And I didn't even know how to respond. And I just said, no. And she got kind of this shock because when you're a cop's kid, you live in fear that something happens to your dad. And the next words out of her mouth were, did he get caught cheating on you? And I just stared at her. And for those of you have listened to the podcast, I can assure you, my son graduated with honors from a very prestigious university. But she did call him because we didn't have the rulebook or a handbook on how you handle when a disclosure like this happens. And she said, hey, I got to talk to you. It's an emergency.

And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a chem exam. And she was like, no, it's an emergency. So again, I can assure you he did pass. Everything is fine. Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind and a snowball. And I went into autopilot and trying to make sure that I could have. some form of normalcy and just get by. Yeah, yeah.

I want to talk a little bit about your husband's career as a police officer, and you specifically as his partner for 25 years sacrificed so much personally to give him those advancements in his career, those late nights that you were taking care of the house and the kids, and a big part of your value system was believing in what he did, did and the institution he worked for, and that changed for you overnight. So can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and where you're at with that today?

Absolutely. My ex-husband was a very decorated service member for the community, and we had a room in our home, our office that were filled with just community and commanders' commendations. He joked and called it the love me room because everything in there. was all about him and showed all the love from the community of him. I knew when I married a cop what I was getting into. I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a law enforcement family. I made a sacrifice of knowing that I was going to have to be with the kids alone at night,

and I would be the person who would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to take them to practice and to dance class, and that it would be something that would be busy. and I didn't sacrifice everything for me. I, too, have a career to use my brain and my degrees. But I knew that I would be the person who would be able to have more flexibility to be there for our family

and would also be the person who would be able to support him and his career as well. Yeah. Yeah, you know, your career is something that your job has asked you not to talk about. Otherwise, we would love to have featured it in the podcast and have it be a part of who you are on the show, but we understand and we want you to keep your job.

Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Drey, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's story and why it stood out to you as the season you wanted to produce next? Yeah, I mean, it started off as a potential story for the weekly series. So you were actually working with Caroline directly,

which is a little bit different. Yeah. And we were just talking about it in a production meeting and there was research we had to do and we had to find these IA. files on Joel. Internal Affairs. Thank you. And we finally got them back

and there was so much there. And we said to each other, this can't just be a weekly. We need to do 10 episodes on this story. It's very rare working in media to get Internal Affairs Investigations, audio files from police investigations. And so we said, you know,

this is something that we need to follow, yeah. Yeah. And so that was the beginning of everything. Yeah. And you had already had a relationship with Moe, and I'm like, hi, you know. And, you know, we get this question a lot, like why this story?

And I oftentimes, especially from law enforcement, Like, I've seen so much. This isn't the worst case ever. You know, it's important for betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like the every day, that feel like that could be your neighbor or your friend, because it feels accessible. Yeah. And then we can understand it. And that's why I thought your story was important to share.

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk to you, Nicole. Hi. you're the one who originally found portrayal. So in a lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage. Yes, you're welcome. What has it been like for you to watch your mom over the past three years since your dad's actions came to light,

but also this past year in particular producing the podcast? She's always been such a independent and powerful woman. So seeing her go through the 2022 year, which was, you know, infamous year, that was, of course, really hard because she just wasn't herself. But ever since we kind of got our footing as a new family, a family is three, she's really grown into someone that people go to, whether that's women that have experienced. and whatever else, or even women in our own police department where this happened, come to her as like a source of comfort and be a person that people can lean on. Caroline, before, I want to ask some questions to both of your kids, but before we do, I want to talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of the police department,

because that was also a place where you put a lot of, time and energy and I think expected some support back. Institutional betrayal is a term we recently learned from this research psychologist, Dr. Jennifer Frye, and it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal you had with your ex-husband. And I want to talk a little bit about how that felt different, what that felt like. Sure. It's a phenomenon when you're in a law enforcement family, and I can say without making a big disclosure, I work in a very closely law enforcement-related field. And when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were people who were at the births of my kids.

They showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together. We celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up in our wedding party. My ex-husband's groom's cake was a pig with a badge on it. So this was our life. And it was a big piece of it. And I can tell you that you become fiercely protective of each other. And I had this big belief that, yes, there are bad apples in every organization, but they're few and far between. I would chant that to myself. I was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you just become this big unit together.

And as my ex-husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that. So I didn't just lose my nuclear family. I lost my extended family within the law enforcement community. And it was just vanished. My facade of what I had, tried to raise my kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement.

What I believed about it completely vanished. So it was just not grief of my nuclear family. It was grief of my community. Yeah. You know, like Andrea said, we first started working together, and I remember in the beginning about a year and a half ago, before we did our very first interview, you were understandably very cautious about participating in this. So can you tell me a little bit about what you were weighing when you were deciding, do I want to tell this story publicly? it's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most private details of your life and i was really struggling with how i wanted to approach this i was living in this silence and this constant internal thought of oh my gosh how did this happen to me how did this happen and i think that's really why the podcast drew me in so much there's an episode in season one where it's the

very first time I ever heard the term betrayal trauma betrayal therapy and I am not too proud to admit it I listened to that episode at least a dozen times I just resonated with me so much and it was just really really difficult to really imagine putting myself out there it was scary because I didn't want to have this define my kids it certainly has shaped to them but it certainly does not define them whatsoever and I work in a law enforcement related community so this was really difficult for me to, in essence, call out some of my colleagues and put that on blast. But, you know, I remember those conversations very, very well, and I would love to go back and tell myself, oh, my God, suck it up, buttercup, put your head up, throw your shoulders

back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this. Hell, yeah. Wow. I want to pivot to Caroline's son in the audience and have you two talk as her children. I mean, you know, you have said that this was a family decision, and I remember when you were weighing, if you wanted to do this, a big part of it was, I got to talk to my kids. I got to make sure my kids are okay with this. So I want to hear about what those conversations were like with y'all as a family, about

are we on board with this, are we going to participate? Are we going to support our mom in this? What was that like for y'all? Nicole do you want to start yeah so when my mom first came to us discussing the possibility of us doing the podcast and going forward with everything I of course wanted my mom's narrative out there our family's narrative out there because we were so silent people just assumed or they just flat out told lies about our family. And of course, my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that. So that was the main reason why I wanted to do this, or we wanted to do this as a

family unit, to just put our voice out there and say, we're solidified in our new sense of reality and this is how we're going to move forward. And even though all of this happened, we came out on the other side stronger. I think it boils down to two main reasons. I think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both my mom and my sister and the value that they got from it, I think that was huge. I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories, and it takes courage to tell these stories.

I think people need to hear them. the messages that we receive on a daily basis of people saying what we said listening to the podcast initially, you know, this could be us. And so I think it's important to let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances to say the least and make it out on the other side. Yeah. And I think that Caroline's son, the way that we have navigated, your privacy and your participation in this show, you know, shows that there are different ways that you can incorporate different members of the family

that have different comfort levels with their exposure. So can you talk a little bit about why it was important for you to be a voice on the show and participate actively? Well, you have these prominent community members and law enforcement and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my entire family. And obviously that didn't sit right with any of us. And so it's not about getting the truth,

where it's not about getting our truth out there. It's literally just the truth out to the community, and that was a part of it. And I think also just this experience brought us closer together. And I think that having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations to my privacy requests and all that, But being a unified front was huge, and I'm honored to be a part of it, and I'm proud of them.

I think what people often forget is, aside from the affairs, what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you were as a person, as a wife, as a mother behind the scenes. So if he ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well, could you blame him? Like, he was creating a story about you and, you know, putting your reputation on the line. So it was so much more than just the sexual misconduct within the CSPD. It was how he was using you and your image and what you've done for your family against you so that he could just get away with it. And that's, I think, really important because when we started working together,

you're like, I want my truth to be told because he took that away from you. You really did. You know, truth and transparency has become a theme of the family that y'all have rebuilt with the three of you. And so I want to talk about what that looks like when you have two adult children

and you're saying, now we're pivoting new family and we're going to reconvene and make new values. So what does it mean to have truth and transparency to be such a big value in your family? I think I'm going to let my kids take that one. Well, going off of this new family, everything happened in April, and then after that,

we recognize that little things in our family, we just kind of let slide, as I'm sure many other families can relate. like certain fights that we had or behaviors or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up. And so moving forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realized that we just want to be our authentic selves. And to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each other's paths and really just being each other's advocates. And we had to go through this process of healing together, and it's a nonlinear process. It doesn't get better every single day.

There's good days and bad days. We still have good days and bad days. We're still healing. But I think it's the understanding of we're in it together, and we're going to go through this together for the rest of our time here. And I think that was important, too. And part of that, after facing so many lies and such profound deception and having that all come to light, obviously truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of a new foundation after you face that. The other piece that I had to face was the fact that certain things I tried to not say.

And at one point, this one here looked at me and said, do not lie to me anymore. he lied to us enough and it's our turn to be able to make choices on if we're going to show up to something or do something do not lie to me like he did so I said you have my word from here on out no more

Andrea I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage which we as a production team encountered this term this year and we've seen it in both of these families yeah I mean family is an institution

and it takes courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure these things don't happen in the future. And so I think by you guys sharing and knowing what was actually happening so you can make your own choices, that takes institutional courage. And, you know, obviously there's the CSPD of it all. There are a lot of people

inside CSPD that has known what Joel has been doing for a really long time, but we're too afraid to speak out because they didn't want to throw a name out there and have backlash. So, I mean, it takes courage to come forward, but what's happening and what we researched at CSPD is that's not happening. And so hopefully by bringing awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will do the right thing. In the new podcast, Hell in Heaven, two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one will end up dead. The other tried for murder.

Not once. People went wild. Not twice. Stunned. But three times. John and Ann Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve

and build a spectacular, circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it. They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts. Until one night, everything spins out of control.

Listen to hell in heaven on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Crying Wolf Podcast is the story of two men, bound by injustice, of a city haunted by its secrets, and the quest for redemption. out of the price. White victim, female, pretty, wealthy, black defendant. Chicago, a white woman's murder, a black man behind bars for a crime he didn't commit. I had 90 years for killing somebody I have never seen. He says the police are his friends and then that's it. They turn on it. A corrupt detective. How he was interrogated the techniques. That's crazy. A snitch and a life stolen. They got the wrong guy. But on the inside, Lee Harris finds an ally in his sally Robert, who swears to tell the truth about what happened to Lee and free his friend. And if you're with me,

your goal to, I'll take care of you. I'm going to be with you. You stuck with me for life. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast, starting on October 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday. A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market. What does a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy? Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsize indicators of inflation. What's behind Elon Musk's trillion dollar payout?

There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back. He's putting politics aside. He's left the White House. And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't? CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure. Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

podcasts. I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her. Well, wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon. This person writes, my neighbor's been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals and now my ceiling is collapsing.

I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult. Hold up, Sophia, a real-life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person, contractors are tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with their ceiling and her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them ASAP. She did.

And now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time. So do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. welcome back. We're sharing the audio from our first ever betrayal live show. We're talking with Stacey, Tyler, and Michaela from Betrayal Season 3 and Caroline Berega with her two kids from season four. One of our betrayal producers, Monique, moderated the event, so I'll throw it back to her. All right. So I want to transition to talking as a big group. And I want to start just by talking about what it's like to be in person together. This was a little experiment that we were

asked to participate in, and we didn't know how it would go. So what has it been like? You've had very different experiences, but you've also had a core similarity. I can tell you that after the first episode aired, I received an email from one of the producers who said, hey, Stacey wants to talk to you, and she's asking if we can share your information, is that okay? And I said, sure. And fast friends and sisterhood in this camaraderie in this crazy ass way. And it was like trial by fire. And she was like, don't do X, Y, and Z. Don't read X, Y, and Z. Do this. And she did. And it's been, I felt like I knew her before we even stepped on the ship. It's been incredible and I'm very grateful for you. Yeah. I feel the same way.

we, you know, we've had a bond that I think we'll always, you know, we'll always have. I'm sure Ashley and Jen and all them feel the same way. There's a lot of these, get this shit, text message. Like, you know, and you can't make this up. Like, you know, especially with a lawsuit, you know. I was like, oh my God, girl, get this. But, yeah, it's been incredible. And we've made some really great memories on this trip.

and just really incredible people. What's it been like for you, Dre, to see everyone come together and also meet listeners? I think it was you who mentioned we should do like a retreat or like a girls' weekend. And I was like, hell yeah. But then this came about like a few weeks later. So maybe this is a trial run. And it's actually really great because you understand betrayal, you understand betrayal, you understand. deception and how that can really fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you

question yourself and the decisions that you made especially in moments of survival and just trying to get through the next day like I'm I just need to wake up get my clothes on and get out the door and those little things you guys can relate to on a very you know specific level and so I knew you guys would hit it off. This has been such a joy. And I think it's just a testament to our community and it growing. It was either going to be this or we were going to crash Andrea's wedding. I was like, I don't know if you know, but I'm coming.

Even if I got to sit a little table outside and just peek in. She was like, oh no, we're having a whole betrayal table. We are. I want to talk about the experience of actually living through what you, y'all have been through versus the product that we see at the end the you know what is it in total five hours of audio or three hours of video that is so different from what you actually lived through um and so i want to open it up to y'all to talk about what was a surprise to you and what was difficult to see or maybe really rewarding to see um but but a little bit more about what it was like

to see the things you had really gone through turned into a true crime podcast, a true crime docu-series. I think I could start with that. It actually wasn't too bad because I have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it. So it's almost like you're a little desensitized. But I think the hardest part for me was the recreation of the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself he had called me at the time and I was two and a half hours away and so like

watching the reenactment which I am well aware was dramatized and there was actors but like just feeling that again that I could have lost him that really messed with me for a little bit I think for for us, it was an incredibly healing experience that I don't think we realized was going to be what it was, even when we watched it or listened to the week's episode, because like I said, it's almost like you're listening to someone else's story, even though it is yours. And we would just sit down afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy, these questions that they think of that just would get you thinking of things and then we would go on these almost therapy sessions. You know, our car rides home, because we went up to Pennsylvania to film, and it was about a three-hour drive.

These three-hour car rides, we would spend having our own little therapy session. You know, so for us, you know, we're incredibly thankful to you because I think healing started with betrayal. So, you know, you may not have thought that it was going to do anything or one people or two people was going to listen to it. But I can tell you that it's been instrumental in all of our healing completely. I don't know, you know, you probably feel the same way. Absolutely. Has participating in betrayal in this production changed the way you think about true crime content? Like when you go to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, listen to a podcast or watch something,

has it changed the way you approach that and think about it? I know for me it definitely has. I grew up watching Dateline, 2020, True Crime. Mom's been joking all weekend, or, well, however many days we are now in. But she's been joking this whole time, like, you know, oh, kids watch Barney, Michaela's watching Dateline. She wanted to Keith Morris and Baby Doll. Yeah.

So, you know, growing up as a teen, early 20s, all that, you know, I watched these true crime documentaries. and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on. Like, you knew. Like, don't, eh, get out of here. And I would judge. Now, I wouldn't go to social media and talk about it, but I would think that.

And then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh, my God, people are thinking that about me. And so now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to podcasts, like I have, my mindset is so different because, in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny little sliver of what happened. And on top of that, like, you're getting all the information, you know, detectives, policemen, judges, you know, the whole family. Like, everybody's giving stories, but we didn't have that, you know.

we were day by day figuring it out and so now like when I watch these shows I have to remember like they probably didn't know they didn't have all this ready made you know little craft mac and cheese cup ready for them you know they had to go out and make the noodles and so I think it's just really changed so much of like how I view other true crime docu-series. One of the questions I get a lot are, were there really any red flags? And a huge part about our project

is really explaining that there often are none because perpetrators like Justin, Joel, really good at hiding who they really are. And so I think when audiences watch true crime and they have those thoughts, Michaela, I think it's a form of safety, like, I would see that if it happened to me. And that's often not the case, and that's why we are so open about not knowing because you didn't. And why would you even think that your husband could do what he did?

Why would your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal. Ashley put it really good in hers, and it became so clear to me when she said it. she said, you know, it's like this puzzle and you have all these pieces and in 2015 you might have got this red flag. Then in 2017, you might have got this. And when you're taking it over a course of the, you know, Justin I were together seven years, I don't think, you didn't think back to something like, oh, let me put it together with that red flag. You know, let me start collecting the flags. You know, when it, when you get to the end, then you're like, oh. And

then the puzzle, it becomes clear. It becomes a puzzle. But, you know, in this moment, you have a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow piece, and nothing matches. And then they start to make you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And I know for me, Justin would, you know, do things to me like if there was something I was bothered by, you know, by him, it would just be like, well, you know, if that's the kind of husband you think I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone who knew me personally, being a wife was something I took pride in. I took pride in being a good wife. I loved being a good wife. And when he would say those things to me, instantly I would kind of crawl inside myself and think, you are a terrible, terrible wife.

How can you think this about this man who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you, gave you this life, and so he would take that and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just, oh, well, you know, you missed red flags. Well, yeah, there's red flags now. Now that you've told me, I mean, like, you know, I look at photos now that when I took them, I was just like, oh, these are such sweet moments, and they make me sick now because I see them in a different way. It was, that was probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up together that I used to think were sweet moments

of just a man loving my kids like a father should to now realizing how disgusting they were. So it's, you know, you have to give a little bit of grace, I think. I'm the same way with Michaela is now, you know, I've run my mouth, I don't know how many times,

and now if I'm watching TV on a documentary and I'm like, and then I like sit back and I'm like, wait a minute, you know, I don't know her story. I don't know his story, you know. So I think we got to give people a little bit of grace and realize that in these moments

when you're trying to navigate, you know, there's, like Caroline said, there's a part of my story. No one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed to share, and I don't give a shit about sharing it right now, is I was also sued civilly by the boys' parents who found the camera. So while this was all going on, you know,

civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney, I lost my home, you know, and you're literally just going from one thing to another every day of trying to put out fires and make sure that your children are still eating and not just only Pop-Tarts. You know, I mean, it's the truth. You just cannot, you make the best decision you can at the moment. And did I screw up? Yeah. I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by.

and, you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or anything else, you can't beat me up any more than I beat up myself. I have questioned myself. I question everything about every decision I ever made. You know, there's an episode called, it's essentially the split-screen episode, revisionist history, and you hear my entire 25-year relationship with my ex-husband in the span of 38 minutes, and I tell you every single thing now in those 38 minutes. that now I have a concern about

and I question all the time and I did that for that first year and you don't really know it's like the analogy of the frog in the pot you don't know that it's boiling until you're out and I can see that it's boiling now that I'm out I want to talk a little bit more about survival mode with you Dre because that's something we talk about

all the time and really trying to understand and tell these kind of stories we often have to tell the story of that we have to tell that story of the survival mode year and all the choices that were made in that year. But it is so difficult to convey that experience that you all had. We can't make a year-long podcast. We can't really be in your head? But can you talk about like the survival brain, the logic brain, and the ways that we try to make content that helps people understand that survival mode? I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacey, when I came to visit you, was like, when you would wake up in the morning after everything happened, like, what was your first thought? Because when something horrible happens and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes and realizing, no, I'm actually here, this is actually happening, this is my real life. And I now have to get up and face the day. And so that's, I remember talking to you about that.

And I think it is important to give people grace and know that when this happens, they are literally just trying to get through their day and make a ton of decisions legally, financially, groceries on the table. Like, it is really hard. And then with space, and if you work at it and you see a psychologist and you have your community,

community and your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain and really sit with what happened, think through how it's occurring for you. And we just want to show our audience that those are two different experiences and that the majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for a year, two years, you know. And then with time and healing, you can look back and really start to process. But those are two different states of mind. Oh, yeah. I mean, you wake up and it's just, you know, life doesn't stop.

Your bills don't stop. Your work doesn't stop. You know, so you're navigating all this stuff while still having to make sound rational decisions. And you open your eyes and you're like, Jesus, another, you know, like it's another day. And all you do is try to get through to get to bed that. night. You know, I just, if I can make it to bed, if I can just make it to, you know, where I can

go to sleep. I'll just go to sleep and I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow. And then you wake up and it's another day. And it's just, yeah, it's just, but it's a, it's a vicious cycle. And living in that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest of decisions. I mean, you just can't. You can't. You do the best you can with what you have at the moment. I think that's one thing that makes the online comments feel so unfair and so hard for us. We have to track them as part of our job, as that we're tracking the comments we get. And some of them are so personal and so vitriolic. And I think obviously it says more about the commenter than any of y'all.

So, you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because I think that would make me short circuit. At this point, we make it a joke. But, like, somebody at one point made a comment at one, like, on, I don't know, TikTok or something, and said, like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so conceited. And, you know, she thinks, like, she's the shit. And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident. But secondly, like, okay, you know, not trying to sound ridiculous, but if I was so conceited and. you know, didn't care about my brother. He wouldn't have gotten a whole arm tattoo for me.

So good for you that you thought that. So what's in each other messages? I'll be like, how are you doing today? You can see it, bitch. Yeah. So, you know, now, like, we just turn them into jokes. And it's just a way to, you know, just laugh about it because, you know, hurt people, hurt people.

And it's nothing we can do. I can't help them, but instead we can just laugh about it. And I know Tyler and I even made a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions and mean comments that we were getting specifically about our mom. And I think that helped a lot, clear up a lot of things. Really, about 95% of the comments on like the stuff I make are pretty positive. And then there's like the 5% like troll, but to be honest about 85, 90% percent. percent of the time that troll has about third grade grammar.

Or you can tell they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit about what's going on and they're just saying whatever. So I just kind of ignore the trolls. If it's something that bad, I'll delete the comment, like if it's on my own stuff, just because I don't want like other survivors to see that, them to be discouraged. But me and myself, I just tell them, you know, you can go fuck yourself. That's me. I don't care.

Yeah, we have a lot of, I don't know if you all notice, we have a lot of dark humor. Humor is what carried us through a lot of this. Some people are uncomfortable with that. But the comments on the podcast really, really got me. And I decided when the documentary was going to come out that if I had to be the martyr, you know, in this, and if people had to hate me for his story to get out and for his healing to come, that I was okay taking that, and that I really didn't give a shit because I know my truth, and, you know, we have an incredible relationship.

You know, I know Caroline got a lot of shit about, you know, telling her children. I think it was, you know, noble that you made it a point not to lie to your children. We have to be honest with our children. We have to tell our children things, hard things. I know I questioned myself a lot. Did I talk about hard things with my children when they were little? of, you know, that people can do these kinds of things to you. So I was incredibly proud of you for telling your children and being truthful.

I know I had a lot of people with my littles that was just like, just tell him he died. I'm like, I wish he would die. I wish that was the truth. But it's not the truth, and I'm not going to lie to them. You know, I tell them in little bits. But, you know, so, I mean, going back to the comments. But, you know, at the end of the day, yeah, you just have to, you just kind of have to separate that. But our way of dealing with that is joking.

And we're, we can be pretty nasty like I said. Like Tyler, so we're like, they're probably in their mom's basement in a beanbag chair eating chitos. You know, like, we just have to, you just have to do it. It is what it is. Yeah, I didn't listen to their advice. And, you know, some of the things that were said. It's just very evident that there's a lot of people who clearly have read a manual that I haven't. I mean, whatever the title of that book is that says, hey, when your high-ranking police officer husband blows up your lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door and then he moves out to the family RV loses his job and relocates, here's what you should do.

Is that Barnes & Noble that carries that? Amazon Prime. So I didn't have that. and I, you know, had to make decisions quickly, financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as a parent, and I was doing the best I could with it. I didn't have a three- and four-year-old, so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story up and, you know, discuss it like the tooth fairy or Santa about why dad didn't live with us anymore. He was no longer a police officer and that we were preparing for reporters to show up at the door.

I didn't have the ability to be able to make something up and lie to them or tell a story or dance around it. I had to be very direct, very, very, very direct. And that's something that was difficult. It was hard. It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means. And it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions with my kids. And I will tell you on a different note, you know, we do cope with dark humor. I mean, my son and I were golfing not too long ago before we came on the cruise. And he just, he hit this ball of country mile and it just was gone. And he was like, yep, that ball left me like my dad. So, I mean, we say sideways stuff all the time, and that's how we cope with it. And that's really dark for a lot of people and hard for people to hear, but it's

what we do. And, you know, there are a lot of things that occurred in our lives where it was so hard to have these tough discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions in order for us to get through. And having them both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, prepare us. Do not lie to me. It was hard. It wasn't easy. It was not something that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for those of you or anyone who you know who does have that manual, tell them I'm proud of them. And I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a lot better than I did.

I did the best I could. And the other thing I'll say about it is that there, in some of the comments, people were like, I am horrified, you know, that she had this discussion with her kids. I'm horrified. I had to have the discussion with my kids. Absolutely. Let's be horrified at the people who did the crime. You know, let's be horrified at them. Absolutely. And I do want to say that, that, you know, Stacey's saying that, I do want to say the part that makes me so sad about some of those comments and some of the feedback that I've received from women who have thanked me for us telling our stories is that it's comments like those that keep people silent.

Yeah. So you are a part of the problem and you are damning the solution. I like that. Yeah. What advice would y'all give to someone who was considering becoming the subject of a true crime podcast? Don't read the comments. I would have to say, don't be afraid. As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and I was getting and mom was

getting and the betrayal podcast we're getting, you know, I'm like, wow, if we all would have lived in fear, these people may not have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad. And so don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it from the mountaintops, you know, it's better to do it that way instead of live in fear. People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's like the very odd select few. I can tell you, not a damn person face-to-face has made fun of me for what has happened to me, and I don't think anybody has the balls to because they know that's not right. So really, I don't think that's something you have to worry about. Let's take another quick break,

and we'll come back to finish the conversation. In the new podcast, Hell in Heaven, two young Americans moved to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead. The other tried for murder. Not once. People went wild. Not twice.

Stunned. But three times. John and Ann Bender are really. and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular, circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it. They actually lose it. They sort of went nuts.

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to hell in heaven on the I-heart race. Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Crying Wolf Podcast is the story of two men bound by injustice, of a city haunted by its secrets, and the quest for redemption, no matter the price. White victim, female, pretty, wealthy, black defendant. Chicago, a white woman's murder, a black man behind bars, for a crime he didn't commit. I had 90 years for killing somebody

I have never seen He says the police are his friends And then that's it They turn on it A corrupt detective How he was interrogated the techniques That's crazy A snitch and a life stolen

They got the wrong guy But on the inside Lee Harris finds an ally In his celly Robert Who swears to tell the truth About what happened to Lee And free his friend And if you're with me

You're golden I'll take care of you I'm going to be with you. You stuck with me for life. Listen to the Crying Wolf podcast, starting on October 22nd, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday. A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market. What does a big business? Bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy.

Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsize indicators of inflation. What's behind Elon Musk's trillion dollar payout? There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back. He's putting politics aside. He's left the White House. And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't? CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumer.

are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure. Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her. Well, wait a minute, Sophia Adia knows she's a cult leader. Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon. This person writes, been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals, and now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult.

Hold up, Sophia. A real-life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person, contractors are tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with their ceiling, and her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them ASAP. She did. And now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time. time. So do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any audience questions? We have a few that have been brought in. Oh, we have one. Yes.

So this is more for Carolyn. I listened to the whole podcast and CSP, is probably the second biggest betrayal, how can they get away with it? And it's not just Joel. It's the other people in the department. And they came forward with it and they still, I mean, how it got to the point where he was able to retire even. How do you even get past that? I wish I had a solid answer for that. And I looked over at Andrea when you were asking that question, there's so much more to the story that you would just fall out if you knew. I can tell you one of the scariest things on the internal affairs tapes without broaching legal concern is that a very, very high-ranking female in the police department actually turned my

ex-husband in for sexual harassment. And nothing was done. It's sickening to hear it's really, really sad. We can move to any place we want in the country. That's one place we would never move to. It is beautiful, though. Hi, I have a question for Stacy. How has your definition of trust changed? I trust very few.

I work on that a lot. I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I call myself a spicy Christian. I love Jesus, but I cuss. And it's the truth. It's something that I think I have had to press. about because I don't trust people and it's really hard for me because I am such a trust I was such a trusting person but you know when people tell me things most of the time I'm like you're lying

or you know I always kind of think like what next you know I analyze kind of what people say and stuff it's hard it's hard to ever trust somebody again I mean you lay next to somebody for seven years that you think you know and you roll over one day and they're completely someone that you had, you had no idea, you know, so it's hard. I think someday there'll be somebody that'll come along, maybe, you know. I pray for money instead of a husband these days. I really would just rather have money so I can go on cruises. But, yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on.

Hi, first of all, I want to say thank you for coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous. But I wanted to ask the siblings, so being so young and naive to how evil people can be, have you ever been guilt-tripped for cutting your father off or no longer speaking to your father? Has anybody ever said, oh, give him a second chance to your father, et cetera, et cetera? Only in the comments of Spotify. Yeah, I think, like, what people don't realize is, like, our dad, was a funny human being and we like being around him. So when it first all happened, like my brother

and I were calling him up and asking all these sorts of questions. And then it came to the point where like he didn't come to my high school graduation and he didn't come to this and that and this. So I was like, if he wasn't going to come to the big events, he's not going to come to the daily events. And so then it's like, why worth trying? This is for Stacey. This is not really a question. It's more of a comment. I just want to tell you that I think you were an amazing mother.

My mom did not believe me. And when I watched the episode, I was screaming at the TV because I was like, yes, mama, yes, you go. So I just want to tell you, thank you. Thank you for being with you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children.

I mean, people gave me shit online. Like, what took her so long to leave? I was like, shit, it happened on a Saturday. I filed for divorce on Tuesday. Like, with no proof, the abuse had not even come out. He had not even come forward yet. And I was just like, that's some whack-ass shit. That's not happening in my house.

We can file for divorce. three days that I was just like I was willing to give everything up and it was never about the money it was never about the nice house we lived in I didn't give a crap if you worked at sheets yeah you know it was three days before I was just like you know I'm believing what I'm being shown right now you know yeah well our time is over and I wish we could stay talking in front of this group because it feels really really wonderful to be here and to have this out in the public, it feels really special. Yeah, thank you guys for coming.

This show means so much to everyone here on stage, and it's been a joy, so thank you so much for coming. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you for listening. A special thank you to the listeners who came with us on the cruise. Meeting all of you was such a delight. Thank you to IHeart and Virgin Voyages.

And as always, thank you to our storytellers. On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly. This was my best friend. This was somebody who was in my house every single day. This is somebody who I told all my secrets to. She did this because she wanted to. She did this because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she likes the control.

If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. You can also connect with me on Instagram at It's Andre Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.substack.com.

We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHeart Podcasts.

The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Caitlin Golden, Olivia Hewitt, and Kristen Melcure. casting support from Curry Richmond.

Our I-Hart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mib Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the heat of battle, your squad relies on you. Don't let them down. Unlock elite gaming tech at Lenovo.com. Dominate every match with next level speed, seamless streaming, and performance that won't quit. Push your gameplay beyond performance with Intel Core Ultra processors. For the next era of gaming, upgrade to smooth high-quality streaming with Intel Wi-Fi 6E

and maximize game performance with enhanced overclocking. Win the tech search. Power up at Lenovo.com. Johnny Knoxville here, check out Crimeless, Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media, and Big Money Players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the Nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect storm in a sewer. That was dumb. Do not follow my example.

Listen to Crimless, Hillbilly Heist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I live below a cult leader, and I fear I've angered her. Wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast. So we'll find out soon. This person writes, My neighbor has been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals.

And now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they might be part of a cult. Hold up. A real life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue, Dakota. Find out how it ends.

Listen to the Ok Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everybody? It's snacks from the trap nerds. All October long, we're bringing you the horror. We're kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified. Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror in Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die further. And it's the return of Tony's horror show, Sidewise written and narrated by yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary. And we'll cap it off with a horror movie Battle Royale. Open your free IHeartRadio app and search trap nurse podcast.

And listen now. This is an IHeart podcast.