Betrayal - Deb | Betrayal Weekly

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

The Canadian police have a 30-year cold case, and only Deb can help them solve it. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It invites us back home to ourselves. I'm Mike Delarocha, a host of sacred lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal. This year, we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the patterns we're ready to release. If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show, up in your life. Sacred Lessons is here for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delaroach on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It was a profound moment. It's the duality of, oh my God, what in the world? Who is this cruel? Who can pull this off? Whose friends pull it off? How do you fabricate the details like that?

I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about the people we trust the most and the deceptions that change everything. My real name is Debra, but typically everyone calls me Deb. Deb Proctor grew up on the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. She recently retired from her role as the senior director of her tribe's domestic violence program. And before that, she spent her entire career as a nurse. After being an R.N for, well now it's been 48 and a half years. Like a lot of people in the medical profession, she developed a keen sense for when someone is lying.

When you mention bullshit detectors, I can spot them a football field away or further. Deb is Cherokee and proud of her Native American heritage. My grandmother, who lived until she was 99 years old, she is actually our family's original in Rowley, which means she is on the Dawes Roll. The Dawes Roll was a list compiled by the U.S. government in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It named about 100,000 Native Americans who were allotted land.

Which was pretty unusual to have an original roly in your life for most of it. Growing up, Deb's grandmother was a constant presence and a source of inspiration. I think I got a lot of my proctor will and strength and courage from her. She was born before statehood and she was still stacking her own wood when she was in her early 90s. She was a survivor of many, many situations in her life. Her grandmother experienced a lot of violence firsthand. Deb's father did too. As a child, his own father was murdered in front of him.

Those life events are what gives the background and the experience to what we would call intergenerational trauma or historical trauma. She saw the impact of that on her family. There was alcoholism and emotional turmoil. And when she was young, Deb struggled to process it. When you're a very sensitive nature child, your little heart's open and you're intuitive. You pick up that energy. From a young age, she experienced violence and abuse herself.

The violence I experienced, I truly in my heart know that it's as a result of those. that could not heal. Deb believes her father's unresolved trauma led him to become a civil servant. He taught me a lot about community service. He would be in his vehicle driving through the rural areas, seeing what the natives needed. And ultimately, he was a councilman for her tribe, served many, many years. Deb grew up quickly in more ways than one. In fact, on her 16th birthday, her high school boyfriend surprised her.

They had a birthday party for me, and he asked me to marry him, and I accepted that was the day I turned 16. But her engagement didn't distract her from prioritizing education. Her father insisted that she earned an advanced degree. He was the one in the family who said, you must have an education. And so at age 17, I did start college and I finished at 19 with my first RN degree. That was as a result to my dad, pushing me. Before she even had a chance to know herself, she was married and working as a full-time nurse. I mean, I'm running the hospital as a baby nurse.

I'd probably turn 20, maybe 21 by then. It was tough, but I spent. A good part of my energy on trying to achieve perfection. Deb and her husband shared a very similar upbringing. He came from a violent background, very similar to mine. And so we just went together like peanut butter and jelly. They had two sons together. But a few years into marriage, her husband's behavior became a problem.

He struggled with drugs and drinking. and he had violent tendencies. It was really hard. She eventually left her husband and resolved to end the cycle of violence to make a safe and stable environment for her and her two sons. And so for many years, I remained single

and just spent time with myself and the boys. And so for the next few years after we divorced, I sought to understand. I bought books. I joined book clubs. Anything on self-understanding. She started going to therapy and joined support groups for families impacted by alcoholism. She was creating a better life for herself and for her sons.

When her sons became teenagers, she looked around and realized, I did want a partner in life. You know, someone to enjoy life that I meant something to, that I mattered to. She was 41 and felt ready to explore a new partnership. So she made an online dating profile. This was 1997, back when online dating was a novel concept. Yeah, this ain't bumble, this ain't, yeah, there's none of that stuff. One man piqued her interest.

His name was Jeff Walton. His profile was just romantic. It was something like, I'm looking for my guinevere. Jeff said he wanted to treat his next partner. like a queen. Deb wrote him an email. He lived a couple states away in Kentucky, but their conversation flowed easily, and Deb quickly discovered they shared the same interests. They both loved Gough. And Jeff wanted to hear more about Deb's Cherokee culture. You know, the music, a spiritual journey, he loved the Native American spiritual practices. And when I talked to him, I was just smitten with him.

she looked forward to his phone calls and emails. I saved all of that. I printed everything. I had a huge three-inch purple binder with all of our exchanges. As they got closer, she got to know more about his backstory. He was born in Alaska and moved to Canada. He was a dual citizen of Canada and the United States. And he had a complicated relationship with his biological. family. He didn't know he's real dad. His stepdad was very violent, and he would share stories. Like, you know, his stepdad murdered the family poodle in front of his sister and his mom and him.

And, I mean, it was horrible stories. Deb had seen her share of violence as well. She understood what it was like, so they bonded over their difficult childhoods. Jeff's family was still in Canada, but they'd fallen out of touch. He moved to New Orleans as a young man, and along the way, he picked up the accent. So when he would talk to me on the phone, he would have that, you know, dialect. He would say, hello, darling. Yeah, I can't do it, but it was definitely New Orleans. Jeff's ex-wife and adult son still lived in New Orleans.

But after his divorce, he'd taken a job in Kentucky. He was a project manager for a big construction company that, you know, worked on Toyota plants, that worked on the University of Kentucky, that had done all this great work. Jeff was the kind of person who'd lived a million lives in one. He just fascinated me. He was a pilot and played football for Woody Hayes at Ohio State and was phenomenal. Depp could really see herself with this. guy. We're going to embark upon this journey together. We love music. We love golf. We're both

seekers. I just was so excited about meeting this man. After a year of talking, they decided to finally meet each other in person. Jeff flew to Oklahoma. When he arrived at the airport, she was waiting for him with a gift. I'd had a traditional ear, a medicine man had gone to him and ask him to bead a feather. There was a song by Robbie Robertson, and the name of it was Golden Sether. Give My Love a Golden Sether. And if you were to look it up,

it's so that I never lose my way home. And I thought, what a beautiful expression of love for this new man in my life to give him a feather because he loves that Native American song so much. So I met him at the plane with that, and I said, here's so you can always find your way home. And Jeff had come with a surprise of his own. Since he got off the plane and he was walking toward me, it seemed like his voice was shaking.

And he said, you will marry me, won't you? You're going to marry me, right? You are marrying me, right? That was Jeff's marriage proposal. And I was like, well, of course, of course, yes. The weekend could not have gone better. Jeff wanted to get to know her world. You know, I drove around, showed him the rural area, my history, some of the culture, where I worked. We went out to my golf course. I introduced him to a lot of my friends, met the family.

It was just a really good weekend. I just loved him. Just loved him. They started making arrangements for him to move to Oklahoma. And I'm a planner and an organizer in every aspect in my life. So shoot, the next thing you know, I'm getting busy. I'm helping him find jobs. He's getting his resume-a-of-course.

Of course, we're still using faxes then, and he would send things, and I would write cover letters for him to help him get relocated. A few months later, Jeff moved in. They spent the next year planning a small family wedding in the Ozarks. We married on April 23, 2000. It was the anniversary of the day they met in person. Deb's youngest son walked her down the aisle, and Jeff's son, little Jeff, flew in to support his dad.

It was a true merging of their lives. I really thought it was meant to be. They planned their first trip together as newlyweds, a golf trip with Deb's group of friends. Deb had been golfing for her entire life. Every year, she and her friends traveled the country to play. Jeff was eager to join. He'd been an avid golfer when he was younger,

but he hadn't played in years. So he lost these golf clubs. Well, heck, you know, I got to go buying golf clubs, you know, because he's got to have golf clubs if I'm going to play. So then he needed lessons because he just hadn't got to play in a while, he said, needed to brush up. But on their first golf trip with her friends, Once we got all the scores in and everything,

the winner was him. And I was like, well, golly, great job. But Deb's friends were standoffish with Jeff about his win. And one of her friends was quick to point out, A real golfer is not going to leave their clubs behind. It doesn't make sense. Her friends had never acted like this before. She didn't know what happened.

and neither did Jeff. But after that, they weren't invited on any more golf trips. I felt like everybody was mistreating him. A year into their marriage, Jeff was still struggling to find the right job in Oklahoma. One day, when Deb was helping him with an application, Well, I found an old resume. And on this particular resume, it says Vietnam veteran. I was like, my God.

He'd never told her he was a veteran, but Deb had a lot of experience with the VA. While getting her advanced nursing degree, she worked on a program at the VA that specifically studied Vietnam veterans with PTSD. I'm like, you never told me you were a veteran. You never told me you were in the Vietnam War. That is a significant event in life. I was flabbergasted. It had never come up. And he said, well, I don't like to talk about it, Deb. I use it on my resumes because, you know, that ought to tell you something.

I was like, but she should have told me. I should never found out here. Deb felt like he needed to talk about it, even if he didn't want to. She'd had firsthand experience with veterans and PTSD. And so over the course of time, he began to tell me what happened. It was an elaborate story, intricate details. As an 18-year-old, he'd been in the special forces in Vietnam. One night, he caught his senior officers using drugs.

Fearing he would turn them in, the officers allowed Jeff to be captured. He was held as a prisoner of war, and for months, he was tortured. And they busted his feet with a butt of a gun. so that he couldn't walk. But he got out, and he escaped, and he made it back to the U.S. forces by following the path of a stream. And it was so difficult because his feet were busted up.

He was taken to a veteran's hospital. He had to have metal put in his feet because they were broken. And if we flew anywhere, it would trigger the men. metal alarms as you go in. He recovered physically and was discharged. But psychologically, he was scarred. The trauma was so bad, he said it was just so awful that sometimes he would just get in a closet and he would just hide. Deb was worried about his mental health, especially because his support system was thin.

He was in a new place and wasn't in touch with his biological family. So Deb was happy when his siblings reached out to reconnect. They invited him back to Canada. His siblings had said that his mother's 80th birthday party was coming up, and they wanted him to come. And he talked to him about it, and I said, well, we've got to. I've never met any of your family, and absolutely. A few months later, they flew to Alberta to meet his family.

They hadn't seen Jeff in decades. They were elated to welcome him home. And Deb never thought she'd get the chance to meet his siblings. I finally got to meet his family. I was just so excited to be there and to meet them. And, you know, at one of the brothers' houses, we might play games and just chat and get to know each other. Deb fit right in. We didn't have any serious, meaningful conversations about life or anything.

anything. We were just doing a friendly, cordial, meet the family thing. He was up B. Everyone was up B. It was a good trip. It was a good trip. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Deb didn't know it at the time, but everyone there was in on a secret. Everyone except for her. Her husband, Jeff, Was it who he said he was? In fact, everyone in his family knew Jeff by a different name. Come to find out. He met his siblings at the door and told him, I'm going by Jeff Walton now.

I'll tell you later. New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money,

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the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane de Bolo. It's a new year, and on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?

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Deb and her husband went to Canada to reconnect with his estranged family. And to her surprise, the trip was a success. Meeting his family brought the two of them closer. But one day after they returned from their trip, Jeff collapsed on the golf course. And a friend of ours found him setting up against a tree and wanted him to let him take him in to the hospital. And he said, no, just take me to my car. And so he did that. He got in his car and he drove home.

Deb met him at their house and forced him to go to the hospital. Jeff had suffered a major heart attack. it would require ongoing care. But Jeff still had it nailed down a steady job, so the couple needed help covering his medical expenses. Deb had worked at the VA years ago and insisted it was their best resource. And he absolutely said, I will not go.

I don't trust the government. I'm not going. And I said, well, that's bullshit. We're going broke. We've got to get your health care. That's when Jeff explained. The VA wouldn't take him. He said they don't even have a list of me because I was dishonorably discharged because I reported the officers.

They won't even have me on the, well, anything to do with the VA. And I said, that's bullshit. You were a soldier. You were captured. And he said, I won't go. He got up and he never talked about it again. in that moment, I was like, that is weird. His explanation just didn't add up.

Deb even considered hiring someone to look into Jeff's background. I wonder if I need to get a private investigator or something. And I logged on to the internet. And then I was like, God, I don't have any money to get a private detective. She didn't have the money or the time to hire a PI. Shortly after Jeff's heart attack, he had a stroke. Then his memory began to falter. All the while, he was refusing to go to the VA.

It financially strained the family, and Deb was at a loss. I had begun to say, I do not know what is wrong with my life. How am I going to get this guy health care? He's got to have health care. Deb was his primary caretaker on top of her full-time nursing job. It was overwhelming. I began to drink, and then I drink heavily, and then it was uncontrollably. Alcohol became an escape from her marriage and its problems.

When I started drinking, I didn't have to be confused anymore because my brain was numb. Deb had spent so many years taking care of other people that she neglected herself. I was the person that was going to Al-Anon from the mid-80. He's taking family, taking coworkers, taking friends to A-A-N-A, rehab. I was taking everybody to get help. But myself had, I guess, reached just a hard stop where I couldn't deal with it. Deb had just turned 50 and had been with Jeff for a decade, but life with him was becoming harder year after year.

At first, he failed to bring in a steady income. Then when he became sick, he refused resources for affordable health care. Deb turned to booze for the stress. But one day, after a long night of drinking, she found herself too shaky to put the golf ball on the tea. She checked herself into a 30-day rehab. Best move I ever made. I'm not going to tell you it was pretty. It was ugly.

But there's always been a driving force within me to rise above. Being alone in rehab gave her a lot of clarity. And with that clarity came questions, specifically about Jeff. When she left rehab, she looked at Jeff's behavior with a new set of eyes. I began to really observe. He was strange. Something was not right, not right. She wasn't ready to leave the marriage.

Her focus was on her new sobriety. But she did come up. up with a plan. To get some answers out of Jeff, she gave him an assignment. And I began to say to him, Jeff, every day while I'm at work, I want you to work on your life story because I don't understand it. You told me you were born in Alaska and you moved to Canada. But I don't know where you even went to school. I don't even know when you moved to Canada. If something happens, I'm going to be honest with you. I can't even and write an obituary.

She thought it would be a good exercise for both of them. And she hoped it could help her understand why he was the way he was. And so every day I would come home and I would do, well, share your story with me. Well, I couldn't work on it today. After his stroke, Jeff's memory was worse than ever. He began to claim that he just didn't have much of a memory,

but the neurologist at the time of his stroke, had already advised me that the stroke was not going to impact his memory, then he wanted me to getting checked for possible early dementia. He needed more care than she could provide at home. So she applied for him to be in a funded outpatient care facility, and he was accepted. It's a wonderful program where you stay in your home, but they basically have a center that's open during the day,

and there's activities and transportation, there's clinic onslaught, everything that you could need, and if you need something outside, they'll take you. He started going to the center every day. That was until... The program called me, and they said, have you talked to Jeff? Because nobody can find him. He's gone. Deb was at work.

She didn't know where he was. With his memory issues, she worried he could have gotten lost. So they called the police. Come to find out, he had left the group and the kids. care team to go to the bank. When Deb got there, Jeff seemed confused about what was happening. The whole situation confirmed that he really needed this facility. His memory must be worse than she thought.

But shortly after Jeff's incident at the bank, Deb received another phone call. Only this one would change her life forever. It was a number I didn't recognize and I typically didn't pick those up in my office. It was an international call. But Deb had a strange feeling. When she picked up, there was a police officer on the other line. And I was like, what is this about? The officer was Canadian, and he was investigating a cold case from 30 years ago.

That's when he began to say that they were looking for Ron Stan, and they had believed that they'd tracking down through social media. But Deb didn't know a Ron Stan. The officer continued, explaining that Canadian police had been looking for a man named Ron Stan for over 30 years. He disappeared during a fire. There was a fire in his barn at night, and initially he was presumed to have been in that fire, and he had left a wife, an infant, and another child. Deb's blood ran cold.

She knew what the officer was about to say before he said it. The man she was married to, who she knew as Jeff Walton. It was actually the complete fraud. He was Ron Stan to this missing person. Here's the thing about Ron Stan. He was originally declared dead. But in reality, he'd been on the run ever since that barn fire. New Year, new goals, and in this economy,

better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there hidden in plain sight, so why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into

the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?

We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were. It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow. It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help. I'm Mike Dolorotcha, host of Sacred Lessons. This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat.

Here, we slow down. We listen. We learn how vulnerability becomes strength and how healing happens in community, not in isolation. If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, sacred lessons is your companion on your healing journey. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rocha on America's number one podcast network, IHeart. Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rocha and start listening on the free IHeart Radio app today. 11 years into her marriage, Deb Proctor got a phone call out of the blue from a Canadian police officer. They were looking for Ron Stan, a Canadian man who'd been missing and later declared dead after an arson fire in 1977. And they believed they'd found him in the United States.

He was hiding out in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation using the name Jeff Walton. When the police explained this to Deb. Initially, I thought it was perhaps just a cruel joke. So she asked the officer for proof, for details. The more I pushed for dates, times, names, locations, the more I realized, oh, ugh. She didn't say much on the phone. She just listened, writing down everything the police told her.

Every detail, dates, times, information. I still have that notepad. Canadian officials wanted to speak to Jeff, or Ron, directly. Deb explained that he was in a care facility during the day because of his memory problems. She confirmed their home address, thanked the officer, and hung up the phone in disbelief. I was sitting there when there was a nurse that looked at me from my office door and she said, are you okay? I remember saying, I don't know. I've just had the most bizarre phone call.

So I went to talk to my director of nursing and she said, get out of here. What in the world? She debated whether this phone call was real if the person on the phone was even a police officer. A coworker who was afraid for Deb suggested another possibility. He probably is in witness protection and you just blew it. So you're probably not safe, nor is he. and they said, we'll go with you to the Cherokee Nation Marshals, and we will get to the bottom of this.

So Deb went straight there. She wanted to know if the call she'd received was real, or if Jeff could be in witness protection. An investigator took Deb's concern seriously and started making calls. I gave her the cell number, the badge number, and everything from the officer that called. And she did call, and she confirmed every. last detail.

She verified that Jeff Walton didn't exist. Her husband of 11 years was a missing person. A man named Ronald Stan who'd faked his death in an arson fire and had been on the run for 30 years. I was just heart sick, gut sick, heart sick. My whole body responded and all I could think of was who are you? How could you do this? When Ronald Stan disappeared from his farm in rural Ontario in 1977,

he abandoned his wife and two young sons. In order to escape, he had lit his barn on fire, killing all the animals. His family watched the blaze helpless, fearing that Ron was trapped inside. That poor wife and those two sons that he walked away from in this barnfire in the middle of the night, what horror, what pain, what trauma that they must have endured, thinking that they were watching him burn up in front of their eyes. Why he'd faked his death, Deb wouldn't find out until much later. In that moment, she just knew she couldn't go home.

Not to the house she shared with him. He was a criminal, a fraud, a total stranger. So the Cherokee Marshals helped her come up with an immediate plan. Go to an attorney, go the bank, and get protection. So that's what I did. She made an appointment with a divorce attorney for the following day, and a friend offered to let Deb stay at her place

while she figured out her next move. I just was in a state of robot, just trying to put one foot in front of the other, and then formulate a plan on how to tell me. the family? She met with her sons to break the news, and with all of their support, she called Jeff's son, the one he'd had in America after he went on the run. After all, he was the only child Deb knew about.

I loved that boy. He was my son, too, you know. He was a third son. So my heart hurt for him, just like it did for my boys, to tell him. Everyone in the family called him little Jeff. He was named after his father, or rather his father's alias. And his response was, you know, silent initially, as you could imagine, and then just struggling. We both needed some time to just deal.

The one person she didn't want to speak with was Jeff. I really did not have any communication with him whatsoever. I just had nothing to say. When the authorities finally got a hold of Jeff, they questioned him and asked to see his proof of identity. He admitted to everything. In fact, he seemed amused. He made a joke to police officers asking what took them so long. Because the arson had happened so long ago, the statute of limitations had expired in Canada,

and authorities in the U.S. couldn't charge him either. There was no charges to be made here, you know. He's a scam, but there's no charges that I could file. The only legal action Deb could take was filing for divorce. The domestic violence service of the tribe helped me and just took the papers. And when they served in the papers, he just signed it. He didn't even question it. The news caught wind of the story, and it was a media frenzy.

Media showed up some Canada, some Oklahoma, some the U.S. I just didn't have any peace. I could rarely go home. My phone rang constantly. I was just completely overwhelmed. Deb's niece drafted a statement to send to the press on her behalf. And Deb kept tabs on the news. That's how she learned Jeff's real-life story,

the one he claimed he couldn't remember. A journalist with the Toronto Star had been reporting on it. Through their investigation, they uncovered a possible motivation for why he faked his death. Evidently, he was messing with young college girls, and he was getting ready to get in trouble. At the time of the arson, Ron was working at a college in Canada. He was having a relationship with a local girl who was much younger. The day he went missing, it seemed this information was about to be revealed. It's not clear how old the girl was, but the threat of being discovered prompted him to go on the run for three decades.

Deb also learned how he pulled it off. When he left Canada in the fire and came to New Orleans, he said, I've got to find a woman with money. He did. In fact, he had two other marriages he'd never told Deb about. And after he found a woman with money, he needed papers to validate his new identity. He got a social security from somebody that had died in the 70s. a girl. So he took over her social security. He used his stolen identity to find work and even

collect social security benefits. That's how he worked in the decades that he came to the United States. He used this social security and false name. I don't know how anybody pulls this off. It's so elaborate. When the story broke, Jeff himself spoke to the media about how and why he faked his death. and he seemed to revel in it. He sought that attention. He wanted to be a star. He said he chose the name Jeff because it was the name of his infant son

he abandoned in Canada, and the last name Walton was inspired by the TV show The Waltons. It sounded like a classic American last name. As for the documents he used to marry Deb, they appeared to be forged. I had seen his birth certificate and I still have it.

But when you look, there are things that have been changed. Like the arson, too much time had passed for him to be charged in the U.S. with identity fraud. And what about his elaborate stories? Like being a prisoner of war in Vietnam. It's all made up. That's why he was so resistant to using the VA. He never fought in the Vietnam War. He wasn't even an American citizen.

The POW story? Well, he ripped those details straight out of a movie called Platoon, starring Charlie Sheen, and his football career at Ohio State with Woody Hayes. There was never anybody that played football so Woody Hayes by his name, ever. Deb was left wondering if anything he'd ever told her was true. Today, she doubts if he'd even swung a golf club before she met him. After all his lies were exposed, one of Debs' friends finally came clean about something. Remember the golf trip where Debs friends iced them out?

Well, back then, the group had discovered that... He cheated all day. He never counts his strokes, and when he was out of bounds, he never counted it. He cheated and basically stole a pot of money from Debs' friends. That's why they were never invited to play with the group again. Even his memory issues were a lie. When he talked to the press after the fact, he seemed to remember every detail just fine.

So what was really going on that day when he went missing from the facility and was found at the bank? Deb suspects he was planning an escape. She also wonders if he targeted her because she lives in a rural part of the Cherokee Nation. It's very possible because, look, this is rule. This is a dead-in road.

maybe he did think, hey, I can get out in the woods and rule Oklahoma and continue to hide. One of the most baffling aspects of his deception is that visit to Canada a few years into their marriage. Back then, the reunion seemed completely normal. But behind the scenes, Jeff had asked all of his family members to use his new name instead of calling him Ron. They said they were so happy to see him again that they obliged. They did it because they'd lost him once and they didn't want to lose him again. I think they were just so happy to have him back in their lives. There's clearly so much more to his family dynamics than she'll ever know.

It still doesn't sit right with her. What makes it okay that you support this kind of deception? In the beginning, she didn't even know how to refer to him. What name to call him by? Whether to call him Ron or Jeff. But I had a really dear friend. She nicknamed him Raff. And so for a while, when I referred to him, it was Raff.

But now I usually just say Jeff. In the weeks after his double life was revealed, Deb was emotionally destroyed. It all happened in her first year of sobriety. Jeff moved back to New Orleans with his son. And Deb was left alone in the house they shared. I just remember it was a profound moment. It's the duality of, oh, my God, what in the world, along with, you have to live. You have to deal with this and go on.

And I remember just laying in the floor, just face down, and just saw the, and saying, my God, how does another human do this to a human in the guise of love? In that moment, she couldn't get up. It felt like her world had ended. I just had so much pain and confusion. I got on my knees. I leaned into a chair, and I just kept praying and asking for help. And just if you can get me on my feet, I will go forward.

I will keep my sobriety. I promise, I promise. I made a commitment to live life, to help others. to be the best person I can, to be loving, kind. I mean, those were the things I'd always been, but I was not going to let this make me harsh and hateful. In the throes of despair, she gained vivid clarity. You know, we often talk of spiritual awakenings.

I feel like I've had a few in my life, but that was profound. Profound. And when I stood up, you know, I was still crying. but I wasn't suffering as much. I didn't feel the pain as deep at the betrayal or shock. And I knew that when I stood up that it was something greater than me, it said, get up. You got work to do, go on.

She got up that day, and she stayed on her feet ever since. I made a commitment to do that in that moment, and I've never turned back, and I've never... try to rewrite the story, and I don't want to live in bitterness. I still wanted to be open-hearted and help others. And that's what set the tone for the gears to where we are today. She's now 11 years sober. I maintain sobriety.

I was dedicated to my meetings, and I was dedicated to the spiritual journey and dealing with my loss and grief and shock. She took on a leadership role in her tribe as director of a program providing resources and support to victims of domestic violence. I would say you've still got to stay working on your emotional health because it's a tough service.

What I know for sure is that we can't help others adequately or appropriately if we haven't began our own work to heal. I feel like I'm more effective in these last years because of all the work I've done. In 2019, she got a call from Jeff's son. Jeff had passed away. It was a sense of relief. But also, all the emotions that flood into that moment, you just have to hold them. In the last few years, her life has taken an unexpected turn.

I've just recently married on September 7th, and I never saw it coming. Both of us are nevers. And it was the most beautiful wedding outdoors overlooking the lake. It was just beautiful, romantic, just wonderful. After all, she did make a commitment to being open-hearted. Her new husband meets her at her level. And he's put in the work, too. He is also sober, him 40-something years.

Both of us love golf, both of us love music. It's just a blessing for us both. We feel so grateful. It's too bad we're meeting each other at 70 and 67, but here we are. We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question. Why did you want to share your story? If my story could help others identify lies from their partner earlier, that's one part. The real part is we can hear and we can have a good life and we can live well.

The trauma and the pain and the suffering and the sorrow, we have the potential to just be an amazing human on the other side. Leave your heart open. Love others, help others. Learn boundaries, set limits. On the next episode of Betrayal. My mom was the first one to be like, does this seem off at all to you? It was really the first time someone like said something that made me think, what do you mean off? Like I had never considered doubting it. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at

gmail.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with I-Heart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman.

Associate producers are Kristen Malkuri and Caitlin Golden. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mib Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, Visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's Joel and Matt from HowTo Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence.

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