Betrayal - One Step At A Time | Ashley's Story

Episode Date: July 6, 2023

Ashley and Erin regroup to discuss how the series has affected them. Andrea shares listener emails with Ashley and Avaya.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail].   To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's CyberTipline at 1-800-THE-LOST  If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to stopitnow.orgSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on. And the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement. The ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything that gay, but he really tried hard not.

to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promised to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist, Dr. Steve Poulter, to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name. Part of the way through the Valley of Despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward. Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your favorite shows.

A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island, serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners. Please take care

while listening. Hi all, we have some exciting news to share. ABC Studios has turned betrayal season one into a documentary. You will get to meet the people involved in season one, and you'll hear from people who have never spoken before. And you get to see where the whole story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. You can start streaming it on Hulu on July 11th. But now, let's jump into the episode.

Do an internet search any day of the week for people who were arrested for possessing, producing, or downloading child sexual abuse material. You'll find something like this. Homeland Security investigators say they arrested this Walt Disney World employee on child pornography charges. 41-year-olds facing three counts of distributing child pornography. Elementary school teacher is also a youth pastor accused of using a cell phone to commit sex crimes involving children. Police officers behind bars this morning charges possession of child pornography.

A stunning turn for a mayor in his second term in office, police say he both possessed and distributed images and videos of young boys. was distributing child pornography on various social media platforms. I'm Andreoying to forget how bad. You never know what kind of person is like how a person behaves on their closed doors. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Episode 8. One step at a time. It's been about a year since Ashley Linton first wrote into us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com.

That's how this all started. One email, then another, and another. That opened my eyes to the crime of sexual exploitation of children that's happening everywhere. And the shocking reality that those involved are community leaders, friends, neighbors, loved ones, and partners. Three courageous women, Ashley, Mandy, and Erin told us their story so that we might better understand the reality of what our families and our kids are facing. Now, here's something I haven't told you.

A lot of people urged us not to tell this story. They said, nobody wants to hear about this topic. It's a loser for a podcast. Some were friends, and some are in the business. But you've proved them wrong. You stayed with us. My boss backed us, and I-heart said, yes, we believe in this. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

This is the last episode of the regular season. So I wanted to go back to the women who made this whole thing happen. I spoke with Ashley who lives outside Salt Lake City, Utah, and Erin who is near Fresno, California. Both took the bold step of turning their husbands into law enforcement upon finding CSAM in their homes, knowing they were ending life as they knew it. Erin lived with her husband, Joel, and her two kids,

outside of a military base in Texas. She fled to California after her discovery. Ashley's husband, Jason, was also filming her daughter Avella and was ultimately charged with foyerism. Now that they have been a part of the series and have gone public, we wanted to reconnect. So guys, I wanted us to get together today to talk about the season and see how you guys are doing

after hearing the majority of the episodes. I mean, you both kind of had very similar experiences. like even down to calling your brother-in-laws that are in law enforcement. So I guess I'll start with Erin. Erin, what was it like hearing Ashley's story? It felt super validating to hear such a similar experience. But one thing that really, really blew me away was our origin story. Like having a sick mother and I don't know how Ash would describe her father,

but mine was emotionally unavailable. you know and just like having that dynamic and then seeing how that led to our attachment style and potentially some codependence there. It kind of felt like a belonging. I was like, I have somebody that's met me in this same crossroads. So it felt really validating for me also. It's not a tribe you want to be a part of, but you also don't want to be alone in either. And so, like you said, we're not the victims, according to CSAM.

So I found little support there. Other divorcees and even people on dating apps, they don't understand how I feel or that I feel like I did nothing wrong in my marriage. So it's just really, really alienating. But then to find somebody else in those crossroads is like, oh, thank God, I'm relatable to somebody. Yeah. With everything you've both been through, can you even imagine or be open to allowing yourself to be vulnerable to be in a relationship again? Would you even consider a new relationship?

I knew for sure that I never wanted to date again. I couldn't reconcile how I would bring somebody into my safe circle that I've built over this last year, especially with the children. However, there is a good friend of mine that. has been really supportive and really patient and really kind. I had known this particular person from years before, and he'd reached out just to see how I was doing, and then asked if we could go get coffee. At that point, I still couldn't even leave my home.

I didn't feel safe enough to even go to the grocery store. So to think about going in public, not even just with me, but with another male by myself, I physically couldn't do it. it. So after a couple of weeks, I agreed to go to dinner with him. You know, as a platonic thing, we'd kind of talked here and there. And we got to the dinner place and I was like, I can't go in. And then he's like, well, do you want to get drive-through? Like, what's your favorite food? And I was like, okay, French fries. He's really had to endure quite a bit to stay involved in my life because there's plenty of times if I were him, I'd be like, this is a lot.

But he's been really cool. For me, when I heard you actually say, he has to deal with a lot because of me or whatever, if he wants to be in your life, he's going to have to. I just want you to speak highly of your life because you've done so much to get to where you are. And I don't want you to talk about what your experience is in any shame or put that down. Because you didn't put yourself in this situation. Jason did. Yeah.

I think you're totally right. And I think it might be something that Aaron's already processed through that I haven't because it's been in stages. I don't feel like I have a big banner above my head that says, hey, my name's Ashley. I have three kids. I have a great career. Oh, and guess what?

My husband, Jason, was arrested for a child pornography. You know, so it's not like that anymore. but I feel like I'm still hiding it behind my back. You know, like it's still there. Right. It defines every single day in my life. Anything that goes wrong or not as planned, I still am like, fuck you, Jason.

That's really what I think. Right now, what he did still define so much of the kids and I in our days and how we move forward. But, you know, slowly going away. Yeah. Well, thanks for me. for sharing that. What about you, Erin? How has this affected your ability to trust and your openness to relationships? Initially, I felt similar. It was really scary and it took me some time to

open up to people. But over the course of time, I kind of swung the other way. I'm hyper independent as far as attachment styles. I'm more love avoidant where I can cut somebody off quickly. Also being a therapist, I'm working on myself and I'm thinking about thoughts and feelings and systemic behavior all day long every day of the week. So I'm already in a position to not be relatable to most men. The emotional IQ just isn't there for me. So I do try to online date. I do try to connect with people. But if it doesn't work out for me, I'm quick to shut that down and move another way

because my life is good. I've done a lot of work to clean up that part. We don't have baggage moving forward. I have no custody of my kids. My kids were young when this all happened. So the only person I have to blame for their behavior is myself because I'm the only one who's been really, raising them and has this attachment to them. I'd like to think as far as the package that I put out

moving forward is, hi, I'm Aaron. I have a great job. I run my own business. I have two wonderful kids. This is us. And the rest of it is just background noise at this point. Wow. You're amazing. Yeah. New year, new goals. And in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyong Kowali. And I'm Hurricane de Bolo. It's a new year. And on the

podcast's Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us,

affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every January, we're encouraged to start over. But what if this year is about slowing down and learning how to understand ourselves more

deeply. What if this year is about giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help? I'm Mike Delarocha, host of sacred lessons. This is a podcast for men navigating stress, emotional health, fatherhood, identity, and the unspoken pressures were taught to carry alone. We talk honestly about mental health, about healing generational wounds and about learning how to show up with more presence and care. If you want a healthier relationship with yourself and the people you love, then Sacred Lessons is the podcast for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Dolorotia on America's number one podcast network,

IHeart. Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike DeLauce and start listening on the free IHeart Radio app today. If you had a chance, Ash, would you go back to your old life before you found out everything? Wow. I'm going to be super honest. I miss how naive I was to all of this ugly. I miss the mother I was. I miss the routine. I just miss that boring, mundane life that many people, when they're married for a decade or whatever, however long you're like, this is, fucking boring. I miss that. I miss that with every single ounce of my soul. So I don't know. I can't fully 100% answer that. I totally understand that. But through my therapy with Jess, I also know that I would have never been able to deal with some of my core wounds that have led me to some of the choices that I made or not valuing myself and not trusting myself.

Maybe me being who I was then would have made it worse for the children than actually dealing with how we got to this spot. So for the first time in my life, I feel joy that I've never felt. It's like living in a black and white world my whole life and then all the sudden I see color and I know what I like and I know what I want. I'm like, you are smart and you are beautiful and you are worthy and you are a good mother and this is a good choice. I have to actually have that self-dialogue now. Erin, you first found out that your husband, Joel, was consuming CSAM in 2017.

So it's been considerably longer. You seem to be able to separate what happened from the life you have with your kids now. I was a wife because I liked that role. I was playing. I liked that dynamic that we had. But it really had nothing to do with him. I didn't like being his wife. But I liked having those family values,

having the potential to have children and go to soccer games and make breakfast in the morning. I love doing all of that stuff. And that's because that's my character. It has nothing to do with what he deserves or what he didn't deserve. I would have done that stuff anyway. You know, it was free. It was unconditional.

Would I want to go back to that life? What? No. That was a lie. That was a veil. Yeah, facade. Yeah, a total facade. Now I think I actually have the chance at being unchained and real and authentic with

someone and like what a blessing. And we're young. We've got tons of time to do this right. Listening to you talk makes me emotional. I'm such a crier. I just want to hold you. I feel like you're a past version of me. I hope you're a future version of me.

That's such a supreme compliment. But I just want to say, it's going to be okay. It's going to be better. I wish that people that we interacted with or tried to date understood what a fucking blessing it is to be with someone like us. Because we stepped up and we did the right thing. We have integrity. We have strength. We know what we want.

We know how to deal with difficult situations. And sometimes that just guts me when people maybe misunderstand me as a burden. because I think I'm fucking awesome. You are. And you're going to be awesome too. Our goal was to unearth a betrayal going on in homes across the country. A new friendship between these women is an extra gift. Another gift is hearing from our audience.

We set up an email, Betrayalpod at gmail.com, so you can send us anything, your own story of betrayal, thoughts about the podcast, even complaints. We get a few of those. But mostly, we've seen letters of support or similar experiences. We asked Ashley and her teenage daughter Aveya, who was the victim of her stepfather Jason's voyeurism, to sit with us and read some. How's been everything since we launched the show? I've been thinking about you. Good. Really good. I've had a lot of girls reach out to me about the podcast, which is super cool. So this one says Avea. Hi. I'm sure Avea has heard she's an inspiration. I'm sure she's heard she's strong, that she's persevered.

through the worst thing imaginable. As someone who was abused by their mother's fiancé at 12 years old, Avea is more than that. She's a role model. I'm 24 now and never told my mother what happened, even though she knows. I was groomed and abused by my father until I was 15, and I never told anyone about it until I met my husband.

Avea's strength to come forward and give the biggest middle finger to Jason felt so cathartic to hear. She's laying stones for healing, helping pave the way for the kids who are going through all of this, and will unfortunately go through this in the future. I hope Aveya knows how inspirational her bravery and strength is. I wish Avea, Ashley, and the whole betrayal crew the best. Thank you for telling the story and bringing awareness to a dangerous oversight in the criminal justice system. Thank you so much. Jay.

Aw. It's really awesome to hear other people's stories and, like, them have the strength to come forward and talk about it. Even them writing that email is such a big thing too. Right, because even putting together in an email could be scary to somebody. Yeah, yeah, clicking send could be the hardest thing that they've ever done, you know?

Right. Hello, I just started season two today and my heart is pounding. I was also a victim of a partner who committed a crime with child pornography. He worked with underage girls as a youth wellness coordinator and accessed the internal records

at his work to track down his victims on Facebook and groomed them. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about it still. But hearing others on the podcast talk about going through the same thing has been really helpful in the process and processing my trauma. Thank you so much for making this podcast. It's just mind-blowing to me. I never would have imagined people from across the world reaching out to us, telling us their stories and how they felt.

When she had said the way that her partner had groomed his victims, it made me remember the shame that I felt and how terrible it was. And when she said that she was able to work through some of the trauma by hearing the stories, it's another one of those things where I was like, okay, this is exactly where I am supposed to be right now because of women like her. The next one, I just want to say to Ashley, thank you for being. there for your kids. I went through something like your daughter went through, but it turned out differently. My grandfather violated me, my sister, and my cousin for years. It started when I was four and only stopped when I was six, and it's because my cousin told the police. My grandfather

first started out with CSAM, and then all the way up to what he did to us. When my mom found out what had happened and the things he did, she couldn't believe that her father could do such terrible things, so she didn't believe any of it. She refused to face reality to protect her children, and it's why I haven't spoken to her in years. Ashley, you have saved countless little girls from being severely traumatized and hurt by Jason. I can never, ever thank you enough for that. You are an amazing mom, and I just wish my younger self had a mom that was even half as

brave as you are. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Wow. I think my biggest fear through all of this was exactly what this woman has wrote in. I always thought that there's a possibility that someday my children will be upset with maybe the way that I originally had handled. Jason being caught. And one day they choose not to have a relationship with me because of the way that I initially had reacted. You mean when you went back into wifie mode and supporting him after he got out of jail the first time?

Yeah. but I also know that once, you know, I kind of went through that grief and really got over some of the denial and really looked at it straight in the face. I realized a couple things. One of them was, in my opinion, the criminal justice system isn't there for the victims. I'm so grateful that this woman hurt us. And I'm grateful that in 10 years, 20 years, that my children and other children, and other, children and other women can look back and they'll know that this was my fight. This was the only way I knew how to fight for them. Yeah. Thank you. When we first went out to Utah, here's what

Aveya told us about the podcast. So when my mother had first told me about this project, I kind of was like, what is she? Like, she's crazy. Like, she has lost her mind. Like, something is wrong with her. Like, she is serious. She bats shit crazy. She thinks that she's getting on a damn podcast. Avea, do you think your mom's still bad shit crazy for getting on a damn podcast? No, no. I definitely don't think so now. This podcast has changed my mom's life. It has made her a completely different person, and I am beyond grateful for this podcast. And I guess I didn't really understand it as much at first.

But now that it's really inaction and going on, I really understand the help that it's brought to my mom, and I definitely don't think she's about shit crazy anymore. I definitely am beyond proud of her. New Year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the how to money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen.

Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know,

what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real, experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life

and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were. It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow. It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help. I'm Mike Dolorotcha, host of Sacred Lessons. This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat. Here, we slow down.

We listen. We learn how vulnerability becomes strength and how healing happens in community, not in isolation. If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey. Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rich on America's number one podcast network. IHeart. Follow sacred lessons with Mike Delo Rocha and start listening on the free IHeart radio app today. At the beginning of this series, I told you about flying into Salt Lake City and the inviting shadowy mountains that welcomed us late at night when we arrived. We had come here to meet Ashley Linton

and learn about what happened to her family. I told you about the sinister things that had happened in her home, all of the conflicting feelings of grappling with the beauty and the darkness. Before we left Salt Lake City, we drove up to the Utah State Capitol one afternoon. The building sits at a high elevation overlooking downtown Salt Lake City. A grand staircase sits out front with symmetrical Corinthian columns along the width of the building. In sign peak, a hill with religious significance to Latter-day Saints peaks from behind. The building reminds you of a mini version of the capital in D.C. It was cold, but there was a clear blue sky when we arrived.

We entered through a side door. There was security there, a few police officers. And we stood there. We were waiting for a metal detector, maybe someone to go through our bag. Something to happen. It was a little awkward, to be honest. Finally, my producer said, with all the authority she could muster, we're here to see the attorney general.

The cops looked at us, but me. and said, well, what did you do? Okay, we're from Philly. This was so different from what we'd expect. Yeah, it's the people's house, sure, but we're still checking your bag. Not here. Nobody was checking anything. Third floor was all they said with a wave.

We had some extra time, so we roamed around the building. Built in 1916, the Utah Capitol building has a dome supported by striking marble stones, dotted with skylights and murals depicting early pioneers. We walked around and peeked into the chambers where the state senate and state house meet. And then we met up with Attorney General Reyes' chief of staff for a Cantrell. Okay, there is one thing you should see this. Okay. But it's on the other side, it's a stairwell going down behind the Christmas street.

Okay. Elevator or stairs? Rick led us to a staircase on the west side of the capital, leading up to the second floor. Okay, so my favorite sculpture of democracy and freedom is not like George Washington or something like that. It's these stairways. You can see on each side it kind of dips down. At first, I couldn't tell what Rick was talking about. They looked like normal steps.

But then it became clear. I noticed on the right side you can see an indentation in the marble, worn down created by 100 years of footsteps. That's literally just like hard work, wearing tear of people just going to work. It's a statue of democracy carved by literal democracy. Negotiating, working, evolve. to make change. Change for the better.

During the project, I thought about the staircase often. Sometimes it can be frustrating, wondering, well, things ever change. But these stairs reminded me it just starts with one step and dedication to keep moving forward and upward. We can make laws. We can tell our representatives what matters to us and what we expect of them. If they don't hear us, we can feel us. find new representatives. We can hold people accountable when they hurt our children. Betrayal starts with the people brave enough to share what's wrong in their relationships and in our

greater society. My hope is we'll all do something to make it better. I'm Andrea Gunning, and you'll hear from me on a bonus episode soon. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at PatrialPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Cyber Tip Line. At 1-800, The Lost. If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to stopitnow.org.org. In the United Kingdom, go to stopitnow.org.org.com. These organizations can help. We're grateful for your support. And one way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to

rate and review betrayal. Five-star review. use go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristen Melkiry. Our IHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinschuk. Special thanks to our talent, Ash, Litton, Avea, and Aaron. Thank you to production assistant, Tessa Shields. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Daovecchio, Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines,

music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How To Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape. We've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress.

That's right. Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk.

For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement. the ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything but gay, but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Moll. mailroom podcast. Each January, men promised to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Holter to unpack

shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name. Part of the way through the Valley of Despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward. Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.