Betrayal - Rehabilitation | EP 9 | Saskia's Story

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

After serving his time, Mike launches a new career.   Content Warning for rape, tech-enabled sexual abuse, nonconsensual intimate image distribution, death, discussion of suicide, gun violence, and 911 audio.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail]. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts.  Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com.  For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available. If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Lori Siegel, and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO, Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility

to the products we put out in the world. An in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd

was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scott Steelewell. police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Roll Doll. He thought up Willie Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more.

What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Roll Doll, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1,

including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone, Andre here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have not.

never spoken before and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. There is a corner of the criminal justice system that you won't find on court documents. It doesn't involve judges, prosecutors, juries. It doesn't even involve laws, really. It's called prison consulting. You might have heard about it on the news. Harvey Weinstein is preparing for prison. He recently hired a consultant who is helping guide him on what to expect. Bernie Madoff has hired a prison consultant. Actress Lori Loughlin has reportedly hired a prison consultant. Luigi Manjone. Martha Stewart. NFL player Michael Vick has hired a prison

consultant. Will his new prison consultant? Tip the scales in his case. Prison consultants assist people who are facing time. Many of these consultants promote their services on YouTube and TikTok. Have you been indicted? Or you think you're going to be indicted? You need someone who speaks inmates and institutions. So if you are a loved one that's been recently arrested, you can go ahead and text me. I'll be happy to help you in any way I can. For the right price, prison consultants will advise those facing time on how to get a lesser sentence

or how to get out of jail early. They'll tell you what programs to join and what gangs to avoid. Many of these consultants have served time themselves, often for financial crimes or non-violent offenses. But what if the person giving out that advice was a convicted rapist? What if they were someone like Mike Levin Good?

I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal Season 5. Episode 9. Rehabilitation. For Saskia, this crime didn't just take an emotional toll. It devastated her financially, especially when it came to paying for her divorce. I'd always learned you'd never touch your 401K, like you always need three months of bills in the bank just in case of a rainy day. And I'd always live by that. And I had to kind of throw that out the window to fight this.

I remember the first withdrawal I made was for $60,000. And that was just for attorney's bills. up to that point. In the end, the divorce cost her about $100,000. It's a financial hole she's still crawling out of. All of this got us thinking about Mike's financial status, how he's doing today after this crime. So we did some digging,

and what we found surprised us. By early 2021, Mike had served his sentence. He was released from jail and put on probation. One of the many standard conditions of probation is getting a job. And for Mike, that wouldn't be easy, not only because of his conviction, but because of his resume. He was very smart. He had a master's degree. He was working as vice president of marketing for Bank of America. So, I mean, he had made a good salary. It was more than a good salary. Before his conviction, he was making between 200,000.

and $250,000 a year. He was an executive and a good one. If you look at his LinkedIn recommendations, he was well-liked and respected. One recommendation reads, He's not only a tremendous professional, he's also a person of integrity, kindness, and old-school values.

While another says, Mike is a top-notch professional and a pleasure to work with. Even during his sentencing hearing, and after pleading guilty to second-degree rape, a former colleague showed up to defend him. As long as I've known, Mike,

he's really always been an outstanding character, of people grow, mentoring, providing kindness and a good will towards people. It's just the gentle soul. It's one of the hardest things to wrap your head around, the fact that someone can commit a disturbing personal crime, and people will still line up to call them kind and gentle. Most sex offenders struggle to find any work after they get out.

When they do, it's usually construction, waste management, or warehouse gigs. But Mike had a plan. In fact, he had it before he went to jail. During his sentencing hearing back in 2019, his lawyer shared that plan with the judge. He started an LLC so that he can provide consulting to businesses using the information and knowledge that he has. had from his career and hopefully not let the record be an impediment to some companies hiring him because he can use the LLC. He'd use his expertise in banking and marketing to support himself financially. And by running that business through an LLC, his clients could work with him

without the bad PR. Then in February of 2021, Mike got out of jail. And a month later, he filed a trade name application for a new company. But this company wasn't a business consulting firm. It was Smith and Good Associates. According to their legal business filing, Smith & Good is a consulting firm for individuals in the criminal justice system, which is just another way of saying prison consultants. We wanted to learn what this industry was all about. So we called up an expert. My name is John Fuller. I started my prison consulting business in 2004. Like a lot of prison consultants, John has a criminal past. I was since the 10 years for conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute.

He did time for drug and forgery charges. But since prison, John's built quite the career for himself. I worked primarily with white-collar criminals, professional athletes, entertainers. mostly high-profile individuals. Multiple outlets say he coached Martha Stewart when she was heading to prison. He didn't comment on that. But no matter the client,

his job is essentially the same. I prepare my clients on things that they should do before incarceration, ways they should behave during incarceration. And any assistance or the reality of their circumstances post-incarceration. Every prison consultant offers different services.

Some explain sentencing guidelines or strategize on getting their clients lesser sentences. They facilitate mock trials and in some cases assist in writing remorse letters to victims. Others focus on eliminating the unknowns of prison.

But the food, the beds, the fellow inmates might be like. And they also explain those unknowns to family members who are scared for their loved one. But John is the first to admit there are a lot of unethical people in his industry. What 90% of these other prison consultants are doing,

they'll make promises and tell you that they can save your life. In our reporting, we spoke to several prison consultants. Every one of them had something to say about the others. But John brought up a lot of interesting examples of how other consultants will say they can gain the system to their client's advantage. For instance, they'll lie and charge you $15,000, and tell you, as soon as you get to the prison,

they can get them in a residential drug and alcohol program. You might be wondering, why would anyone who doesn't use drugs or alcohol pay $20,000 for addiction treatment? Well, John says it can be part of a larger strategy. Because if you can get into the residential drug and alcohol program, you can get 18 months to three years off your sentence. So of course, they're going to go that route. And this wise guy of a prison consultant says, we're going to lie and you're going to tell

your probation officer that you do use drugs. You do use alcohol. As a matter of fact, go report next week with the smell of alcohol on your breath. And that's what's going to qualify you for the residential drug and alcohol program. A few years ago, a prison consultant pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Bureau of Prisons for running that exact scam. But John says, that's not the only scam people in his industry are operating. These prison consultants are literally stealing money from people saying, you're not going to do any time. But if you don't pay me this $10, $15,000, $25,000 within the nation. next 36 hours, I can't help you. And the client is so scared that he's going to do it.

Mike declined our request for comment. So we don't know how much Smith and Good charges or the specific strategies they use. But on their website, they do advertise a wide variety of services. They support clients in mitigating their sentences and prepping for their time behind bars. They also provide guidance on parole hearings and sex offender registry requirements. But there's one line that stands out to me on the Smith & Good homepage. I had my producer Trey read it. We emphasize the importance of rehabilitation, how to do this safely at the Department of Corrections, and what loved ones can do to support rehabilitative efforts.

It all starts with a plan. It's not for us to say whether Mike was rehabilitated while behind bars, but we can say that Mike had a plan for himself. Very soon after Mike got out of jail, he had a business name, address, and tax ID number. And on top of that, he found himself a business partner. His associate is a former Army ranger with a criminal past of his own.

But unlike Mike, he wasn't a sex offender. He was charged with murder. And when questioned by detectives, his story changed three times. times. I'm Lori Siegel, and I'm mostly human, I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, Open AI CEO Sam Alman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to

parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they won't need a lot of guardrails around AI. This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration. The world. The world we live in is a competitive world, and I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution. We have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others. And it's a multiplayer game. What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out I'm mostly human. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.

Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roll Doll, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What?

And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock,

before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. wherever you get your podcast. Why hasn't a woman formally participated

in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels

suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagageddon change the paddock forever?

That day is just seared in. to my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No Grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport.

In each episode, a different guests and I will go deeper into the wacky mishap, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Amaricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2021, Saskia's ex-husband, Mike Levingood, started a prison consulting firm, Smith and Good Associates. He was the good in the business name, as in Levin Good. And the Smith was Gary James Smith. Gary has experience with the system, too, but his journey is a lot more complicated. We're going to take a detour into Gary's story

because it brings up some very important questions about the kind of business Mike is operating. In 2006, Gary was a young veteran, an Army Ranger fresh out of the military. As a judge said of him at trial, There are many examples in Mr. Smith's life where he was a good person. He was a mentor to young soldiers.

He was promoted to the rank of Sergeant Fairlich, quickly, which is no easy task. He was assigned to a very responsible unit with a very important job in the defense of this country. But when good people do bad things, they have to be held accountable. He made a horribly bad decision. And in making that decision, it caused the life of another young man. That young man was 22-year-old Michael McQueen. He was also an army Ranger, an intelligence analyst. He and Gary served several tours together in Afghanistan. When they came back to the U.S., they moved in together. McQueen's friends and family said he was excited to be home. He had plans to go to college, then law school, become a sports agent.

But then, in the early morning hours of September 26, 2006, Michael McQueen was found dead. He had a gunshot wound to the head. His roommate Gary Smith was the one to call 911. You're about to hear that call. In it, Gary is distraught. The 911 operator could barely understand him. If you'd like, you can skip ahead 30 seconds. When the cops arrived, Gary remained inconsolable.

He insisted he had nothing to do with McQueen's death. But the police, they didn't buy it because Gary was covered in McQueen's blood. And that wasn't all. Here's the prosecutor at trial. He's outside at this point, over the top, uncontrollably crying. But then one of the officers, when a sergeant said, I know she was crying loudly, but there were no tears coming. And each time the authorities pressed Gary, he changed his story. During the investigation, he gave three very different versions of what happened that night.

Story number one came the first time the police asked Gary what happened. He said he wasn't even home at the time of McQueen's death. They'd been out drinking and Gary dropped McQueen at their apartment before running out for a quick errand. Here's Gary on the police interrogation tapes. He went upstairs. I said, I'm going to go pick up to cook some queen's son. I drove over to my mother's house, grabbed the laundry basket full of clothes, put him in my car, turned around and went back to the house.

I went upstairs to open the door. I saw him right sitting in the chair, and I saw blood up over the place. Maybe it was a suicide, or maybe someone killed McQueen. Gary offered a few possible theories of who could have done it. Some neighbors McQueen had argued with, or maybe a drug dealer in the building. Gary said when he found McQueen, there were no weapons nearby. He kept all of his guns at his mom's house. But later, he told officer something very different.

Here's story number two. I came home. Mike was dead. My gun was in his hand. It was Gary's gun. He knew his fingerprints would be all over. over it. And he panicked. Grab the gun. After I realized he was dead, I put in my pocket. I got back in my car.

I drove to lit in the wood. After the way underneath the bridge, I got back to my car. I drew back to the house. Gary confessed that before calling 911, he took the time to get rid of the weapon. He said he threw the gun in a lake. I was just so scared. He was dead. He was dead and it was my fault. I left that gun there. It was my gun. I didn't pop it up. Now, Gary was suddenly sure this had to be a suicide. And then, there was story number three. Also a suicide. But in this third account, Gary didn't come home to find McQueen dead. He was in the apartment when McQueen fired the gun.

The prosecutor summarized this version for the court. He says he comes in, he put the gun on the floor, he was back in the bathroom, he came out, and Mike killed himself. And then even in story three, he gives different versions of that. I put it on the table. I was here. I did see it. I didn't see it. I might have been close.

I might not have been closed. Three different stories and one dead man. And with each version, Gary moved a little closer to the scene. from nowhere near the apartment and no gun in sight to finding the gun and throwing it in a lake to being inside the apartment when his friend died. The problem with all three versions, none of them clearly lined up with the forensic evidence,

and the interpretation of that evidence was heavily debated by both the prosecution and the defense. There was no confession, no eyewitness testimony. There was only this evidence, in Gary Smith's word. And it's important to say here, Gary Smith is white. Michael McQueen was black.

After nine years of proceedings in two separate appeals, Gary Smith finally entered what's known as an Alford plea. An Alford plea is essentially a guilty plea where you say that, I'm not saying that I did it, but I acknowledge that there's sufficient evidence in order to find me guilty. That's Max Frizzalone, a defense attorney in Maryland

and the founder of Friswood's criminal defense. So you have somebody who spent years in jail, the state has put on multiple criminal trials, subpoenaed numerous witnesses who have testified multiple times under oath. And so sort of the whole entire goal of an Alford plea is that the person's found guilty, but the person themselves doesn't have to say it. But ultimately, it is a conviction.

An Alford plea is a compromise. The state still gets a conviction, but the defendant gets the ability to maintain their innocence. Plus, as part of the plea, Gary's legal team negotiated his charges down significantly. What was once a murder charge was now reckless endangerment, and he got sentenced to time served. In the end, Gary Smith served just six years behind bars. We reached out to Gary for comment. but he didn't respond to our call. The same goes from Michael McQueen's family.

When Gary Smith was released, he also quickly got a job. He went to work for the very law firm that had defended him. He's even used in the firm's promotional materials. Hi, I'm Gary. I'm a law clerk here at the office of Jesigia M.O.E. I served six years in prison.

Before that, I was an Army Ranger. If you were a loved one who'd been charged with a crime, please give our offices a call, and we'd love to help you. And now I'm happy to say that Gary works for me full time as a law clerk on all my homicide cases and my serious felony cases. That's Andrew Jeswick, Gary's boss, speaking on his firm's YouTube channel. I'm proud of him. And I think we were able to show in the end that Gary was innocent and that Gary deserved to get every break that he could.

And now he's married. He's got a child. He's my law clerk. He's going to go to law school. And he's hopefully going to be my partner one day. If that voice sounds familiar, it's because you've heard it before. Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. And Mike, the great parts of him will continue and dominate for the rest of his life.

Andrew Jessick was also Mike Levin Good's defense attorney. He also didn't return our call. In many ways, Gary and Mike had a lot in common. Both of their cases ended in a mess of legal. technicalities, and they were both convicted. But they each maintained their innocence in spite of the judge's ruling. It's no wonder then that these two became partners, that they came together to help other people like them.

On the Smith & Good Sight, they invite people to reach out and give them a call. So I called him up and surprisingly he answered. I'm Lori Siegel. and I'm mostly human, I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO, Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they won't need a lot of guardrails around AI.

This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration. The world we live in is a competitive world. And I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution. You know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others. And it's a multiplayer game. What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out I'm mostly human.

My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roald. The writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll,

is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy.

Did you know Doll got cozy with the roe? Roosevelt's, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a Congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wagageddon change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No Grip,

a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishap, scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so much, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Alespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice has served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. By 2021, both Mike Levingood and Gary James Smith had served their sentences. And together, they launched Smith & Good Associates, built on their experiences with and contacts within the criminal justice system. On the surface, their business is like any other consulting firm. They've got clean headshots. and a polished website with a promise to help guide clients through a confusing system. But behind the branding, there's a convicted rapist, and a man convicted in connection with the death of his friend. And both are charging money to consult criminal defendants.

We've confirmed through legal documents that the firm's been employed by Jesik and Moes, the criminal defense firm, Mike and Gary both used. On one hand, All of this is perfectly legal. Gary and Mike served their sentences, and there's nothing stopping them from creating a business like this. In fact, in the eyes of the justice system, it might even be a good thing. At some point, you do have to earn enough money to comply with probation, right?

That's Max Frizzellone, the lawyer you heard from earlier. He's referring to something we discussed at the top of the episode, that ex-cons are required to hold down a job as part of the terms of their probation. For a lot of people who have been convicted of crimes, especially crimes of violence, sexual offenses, traditional employment might be impossible. You know, you're unlikely to get through a background check if you have a prior violent felony or, you know, you're a sex offender. So you might have to get creative about how to keep making money. And making money doesn't just benefit the offender.

It benefits their families, who, you know, often suffer from the lack of income that comes with their relatives' incarceration. But the idea that ex-cons are now profiting from that past raises a lot of moral, ethical, and legal questions. One of the pitfalls and problems with the industry is your qualification for this job is the fact that you committed a crime. That's Trey Morgan, one of my producers. He's been reporting on crime for eight years now.

And he did a lot of the investigation for this episode. One of the biggest problems he sees with this industry is that there's no certification process to become a prison consultant. I mean, almost every other industry that deals with our criminal justice system has some sort of licensing and some sort of board that establishes rules and guidelines. But for some reason, we have decided that this one doesn't need oversight. A lot of these crimes are about control.

And being a consultant puts you in a position of power. And then there's the concern of people like Mike getting close with fellow criminals. Remember, Mike started this business immediately after getting out. For sex offenders like Mike and violent offenders like Gary, the Maryland Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services, they encourage limiting contact with other offenders. And the goal there is really, I mean, it's common sense, to reduce the risk of reoffending, especially right when you get out of jail or prison.

Mike and Gary working together likely goes against that advice. So would Mike consulting other convicted felons while he was still on probation. Maybe there's a world where I could get past all of that. Mike and Gary did serve their time. They're technically free to do whatever they want to do and make money in most ways you could think of. But there's one thing I keep coming back to.

What does this business mean for people like Michael McQueen? And for Saskia. I talk to try about it. You know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's this entire industry built around helping criminal defendants, attending to their fears, their anxieties, their difficulties, when there's someone like Saskia who has spent years fighting to get the proper care she needs. I just feel like we spend so much energy caring for perpetrators of these crimes,

and as a culture, we don't give the same safeguards to victims. I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, we are an offender-first, society. Post-conviction, our focus turned to the convicted to say, okay, well, they're serving their time. They're getting their life back together. And we start forgetting about the actual victim. When you go to Smith & Goods website, you see a lot about Mike and Gary's accolades, how Mike was a business exec at Fortune 500 companies, and how Gary was an intelligence specialist in Afghanistan. nowhere on the website do they make any acknowledgement of the details of the crimes they've been convicted of, and the victims whose lives they've altered forever.

And I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine. Saskia had no idea about Mike's business. She only found out about it from us once we started investigating for the podcast. I can't say that I was really surprised, but I just thought it was really a low, shameful thing to do. He's not helping victims or not helping rehabilitate people. And instead of making something good out of it, he decides to capitalize on it. he's like basically laughing at everything that he put me through.

As for Michael McQueen, he will never know what Gary went on to do. He was long dead by the time Smith and Good began. But those who loved McQueen, his family, his friends, those he served with overseas, remain. As we said earlier, we tried contacting his mother for comment. She never replied to our messages. But we do have audio from Gary's final sentencing hearing in 2015 when McQueen's mother got up to give a victim impact statement and we'd like to share what she had to say.

There must be concerned for victims and for my son who under no reason was murdered and killed by someone who he considered a friend. Whether or not it's called one thing, whether or not it's called mass slaughtered, It is still murder. He killed an innocent young man who had everything to look forward to. And so I asked myself, where is the fairness for my son?

Where is the fairness for him? Mike and Gary get to move on. Victims live with these crimes forever. I'll never be the same. I'll never be able to assume that because I'm a good person. that I'll get treated as one. It would be one thing for Mike to start a business like this if he'd made amends with Saskia.

If he would have said, I'm a sex addict and I will do anything I can to show you that I'm sorry, if he would have done anything in good faith. Then maybe Saskia would feel differently about all of it. But if his actions, actions in the divorce trial are any indication, Mike's not trying to minimize harm. There was no regret, no accountability taken. Immediately right away, the only thing he cared about was saving his face. This question of accountability is one that comes up in many of our

stories. But it's rare that we have a case where the perpetrator has built a career around his conviction and incarceration, which is one of the reasons we wanted to call Mike to ask Ask him about this ourselves. So Trey rang him up. And surprisingly he answered. I don't know what I imagined after listening to all the court audio and all of that. But he just sounded like a normal guy. You know, I introduced myself.

I'm Trey. I'm a producer. We're doing a story about Toskia Inwood and wanted to talk to you about your business. And he paused for. for a second. And then Mike started asking Trey questions. Questions like, so you're a reporter. What's the angle of the story?

And then he said something to the effect of, what does my business have to do with my personal life? What does my business have to do with Saskia? His business is a result of serving time. and he served that time because of his relationship to Saskia. Trey laid this out for Mike, but at this point, Mike was done talking. He said he didn't want to comment on his business, his criminal trial, or his divorce case. So they ended the call.

Afterwards, Trey sat there frozen for a while, processing Mike's questions. What's the story here? What do his crimes, his personal life? have to do with his business. When he said that, I was caught off guard. Like, how do you answer that? On the final episode of Betrayal Season 5, we turn back to Saskia and her healing journey.

I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was so sure that he was. was a good person and that you love me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that? For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org slash betrayal. That's r-a-in-n-n.org slash betrayal.

You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-6-5-6-Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community,

join our substack at Betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group

in partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasen. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Trey Morgan and Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo.

Production management by Kristen Melchuri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Voice acting by Stephanie Young and Tanner Robbins. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinscheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trail's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

Music library provided by Myb Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lori Siegel, and this is mostly human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world. An in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.

Listen to mostly human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a... a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces

consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Roll Doll. He thought up Willie Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more. What?

You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy. Listen to The Secret World of Roll Doll on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One, look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F-1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend,

the recent uptick in F-1 romance novels, and plenty of mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.