Betrayal - S1: E3 - Breaking Her Silence

Episode Date: May 5, 2022

Jenifer’s first conversation is with the victim of her ex-husband's most egregious acts. The teenage student that was sexually abused by Spencer Herron who was her teacher at the time. She is now a 21-year-old college student. She speaks about that experience publicly for the first time ever with Jenifer, his ex-wife. It’s a powerful exchange between the two women who never expected to meet one another. The victim’s account draws a roadmap of how a predator operates when a trusted adult targets a young person. Jenifer is devastated at the depravity of Spencer’s behavior. Both women find healing in sharing with each other and the community.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. I think we have to make sure people are supported when they come forward. Lots of times, people want to come forward, but they're scared. This person has groomed them. You know, I'm the teacher. I do this. I got this award. You know, I've been here for so long. These people know me. So it's very hard for people to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time. They're going to call them a slut. They're going to take all of them a slap.

They're going to call them a whore. They're going to call them everything under the book to embarrass them. And then that keeps other people from coming forward. We really have to do a better job. That was Cobb County District Attorney, Flynn Brody, Jr. I'm Andreia Gunning, and this is Patrial. Episode 3. Breaking Her Silence

After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer. Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim. Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate, but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there is great danger in putting much back on her because it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to Brian was how do we lessen her half-truths to not make me look like such a monster or the only

instigator? Clearly I wasn't, but we've come back around to the quote doesn't matter issue. My producing partner Carrie Hartman started emailing and calling women that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer. Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk. Hey Dre. Hey Jen. So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do have some news for you.

Okay. So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney, her civil attorney. Really? Yeah. And the victim, she actually filed a case in 2019 against three school administrators. Okay. Actually, Carrie is the one who's bowed to him directly. Carrie, do you want to fill us in? Yeah. So the attorney's name is Mike Raefe. He's in Atlanta. Actually, we ended up talking for almost an hour.

Oh, okay. So I don't know if you're aware exactly when the assault started, but she was 15 and she was a sophomore at school. Okay. Now she's a 21 year old college student. She's a young woman. She has agency. Yeah.

She wants an opportunity to tell her story. Okay. But before going on the record, she would like to have a private moment with you one-on-one. She wants to meet in person. Yeah. Oh my God. I have not wanted to ever bother her in any way because she's the victim in all of this.

You both are. You both are. Listen, if she's willing, that's huge. That's everything. Yeah. I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out who this person is that I married.

And, you know, in turn, if it helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can. Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before they're one on one, two very brave women who never expected to meet to sat in a restaurant and listen to each other. And then they went on the record. Thank you very, very much for doing this and for talking to me and for trusting me and for sharing your story because I think it's really really important.

I'm shaking. Yeah, me too. We have met once and person. What was that a week ago? Yeah, it wasn't. I told you then that I'm just really sorry that this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me? Well I wanted to talk to you first in person because I thought and I still think it helped me and I hope it helped you with the healing process because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's a chance for us to start moving forward in a healthy way. This is also a chance for us to start moving forward in a healthy way. This is also a chance for me to, in a way, defend myself to the public eye with my words.

It's one thing to go through the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but it's also another to step out and speak for yourself. So I'm just grateful that we're here now. It was important that I see you for who you were back then, which was a young girl. What were you like in high school? Oh, okay.

And in high school, I was pretty shy. I didn't have a lot of friends. And in high school, I was pretty shy. I didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but I never actually took the time to hang out with people. So I was kind of lonely as a kid. Before everything with herring, I had one boyfriend.

It was someone I went to the dance with. You know when you're a kid and you just, you like someone and you hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look back on that because sometimes I miss that innocence. I'm glad that you had that. That was a nice memory to look back on. That was a nice memory to look back on. Do you remember when you first met Spence when he first became your teacher? Yeah, I took the video production class. I believe my sophomore year and that was level one. And so I was just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing about it.

So that's how I met him. We mostly got to know each other during times of the drone club. When he first gave out his number to the club members, it was mostly about shooting videos with the drone or editing. And then he would write me more about just music or sometimes movies.

What was key like as a teacher when you first started with him? Very energetic, just very nice to be around it first. It was fun in that class. I had a lot to look forward to with learning about our equipment and editing. And he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated to teach his students. You know, when you take classes that are not academic and high school, it's a relief because it gives you a chance to be creative. And it was also that trust that you had in someone who was also so motivated to be a mentor in his students' lives.

So I saw him at first as someone I could trust, you know, if I ever felt like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school, I felt safer first to do that. Of course you're going to trust that person. Yeah, yeah. And I think that might be what some people don't understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you feel like that might have been your situation? I think the students in general, those who were not sexual abuse victims, were, I want to say, groomed in a way where he made sure that no one saw him in that way.

But me as a sexual abuse victim, I was groomed in the way where that trust was implemented to violate boundaries over and over again. The reason my ex-husband's in prison is because you were brave enough to come forward and report something and so many times it doesn't get reported. Yeah, it doesn't, unfortunately. When do you feel like that first boundary was really crossed. We were talking about shooting this video, or like short movie with the club,

and he had texted me that he had feelings for me. I remember feeling, I don't know, I guess shock, it's an understatement. I just felt so, yeah, I guess shock is the word. That was the, yeah, That was the first time, at least when the boundary was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to talk about it in person. And I agreed to, because I thought maybe we could talk about it, and that would be that when I met him at school, classes were about to end

around three. They didn't quite end yet. So school hadn't ended yet, but he brought me back to the control room and that's what he kissed me. How did you respond? It's kind of a blur, I'll be honest. It didn't feel right.

I guess I was just confused in a way. And I think maybe I could have just had a say in it. I don't know. Like, I felt like it was wrong in my heart. But when he kissed me, he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's because I love you. This is why, you know, this is why this is okay. Because we're meant to be together.

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This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. At the time, was it a shock or what went through your mind? It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was really confused. I think I was more confused with a grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for me that you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings. And as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you at the time that they love you and they have these feelings for you that they don't want to hide and that you're special. It was a shock.

I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt this way before with anyone and that I was special to him. That's how he made me feel, he made me feel special. And I could trust him if I ever needed to talk to him about anything or anything personal. Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks that you don't know about helps so much and just bear with me. I know I can hear it. I told you this when we met. I do not judge you. I do not can hear it. I told you this when we met, I do not judge you.

I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad at you. None of those things, you know, how could I be? You were the biggest victim in all of this, and I know that, and I understand that. So it sounds like there was some kind of, I hate calling it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where you guys talked more than just school stuff, if he was developing these feelings for you.

I hate calling it a relationship too, and I was really thinking about this because I was recently in court and the school said that this was a relationship. Basically placing the blame on me that I was instigating this. I understand what you mean when you say it, you know, it's different from when you say it versus when someone's placing the blame on a 15 year old kid. But he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense. Like, he would give out his phone number to everyone. And I think that was, as a cover in a way, to make it look like it was normal for him to talk to anyone over the phone.

As far as you know, is that normal for a teacher to give out their cell phone number? At the time I thought it was normal, but then there was another teacher at Cal, and I wasn't in that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking, and they asked, well, you know, it would be easier if we just had each other's numbers. And I remember him strictly saying, no, no, no, no, no, you know, that I will never do that. And that's when it kind of clicked for me that this wasn't normal. So how did he justify doing this with a student? The first thing he said to me was, I've never done this with a student. I've never felt this way about anyone.

The constant violations of boundaries, you know, have the excuse of, well, this is what one friends and girlfriends do. It's because I love you that we're doing this. And he used my faith against me. You know, it's really a true form of manipulation. How did he use your faith against you? He would say that God brought us together, that we were meant to be, that it was all a part

of a cosmic plan. And you know, as a 15 year old, I felt really special to him. Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not, maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or him being married? I didn't think about him being married. I just thought of him as, oh, it's Pocharen.

Because I only saw him for the club and, you know, for school. And it was always just Pocharen to me. So, like, his personal life, I didn't even really think of it. You know, I expressed to him that I was a virgin. And I don't know if I was ready for anything. And you know, it was always the same excuse. He would tell me that it would be okay that he wouldn't hurt me and that he loved me. That was really the main excuse that he gave me because I was hesitant a lot as a kid,

especially with the sex. I wasn't ready at 15. I didn't really even think about sex. And then when it was happening with him, I didn't want to think about sex because I felt shamed. In a way, he trained me to be a woman, and I was still a kid. So I was really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid.

The only times I do remember vividly are the ones that were forced because they're so vivid. I always felt like I had to do things I just didn't want to do. But at that time my feelings for him were already growing and he would just reassure me that it was okay because he loved me. Even when there were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say, you know, I'm so sorry. You know, I love you. I'm so sorry. You know, this will never happen again and I believe them.

Oh my God. I didn't know that person. And I'm so sorry. I know. Why do you think he shows you to go after and pray on? I think he went after me

because it was very obvious I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone to talk to, and I think he knew I was a pretty whom we could. And so he used that trust that I had in him. I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have as well. It's textbook-brooming and predator behavior.

Good. And I didn't see it. And I know some people probably don't believe that. Like there must have been signs. I can tell you if there was any hint or sign, I would have spoken up and done something about it. How do you think he got away with all of this? I don't think he just woke up one day and decided to do this.

He was very calculated with how he was with everyone. All the students he talked to, especially the ones in Drone Club. He was just very calculated with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on the face that needed to surface at that time with that person. No matter if it's you or his kids or me, he was that person that he needed to be at that time. Yeah. I lived on the same roof with this person and I am embarrassed. You shouldn't be. You didn't know. I know, but you know, you understand shame. I do. I do. You shouldn't feel ashamed. Yeah. Did he ask you to keep it a secret?

Yeah. He specifically told me he's changed my name on your phone to just one of your friends. And I had a really hard time with that, but I listened to him. And he would say, no one could know about this or else, you know, you could be with me. And that was the hardest part for me, because I was close with my parents, and I'm so close with them. It was just, you know just heavy forms of manipulation, saying I love you that we have to preserve what we had

is what you'd say. And that's how high school was after sophomore year, I was just completely confused. And I just felt the whole time angry and so insecure. And I just remember walking through the hallway. I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone. And then I thought, who could I tell this to? Who wouldn't judge me?

Because I was so scared that I would be judged by whoever I told. I remember thinking, I wish Heron wasn't her in at that time because I trusted him so much. I felt like he was that person I could go to for anything. And I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him to talk about how this was happening to me from him, if that makes sense. Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here my husband gets arrested right in front of me. And that's my best friend.

You know? Yeah. know, here my husband gets arrested right in front of me. And that's my best friend, you know? That's the person that makes me feel safest in the world, and they can't even be there for me. Because the damage was done by him. Did he talk about plans for the future. He did. He would talk about that often. You know, he'd say, I really want to continue this when you graduate and go to college. And he'd say, I see you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff like that. Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about his wife leaving me? So he didn't bring you up on his own. I

brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of you and him behind his desk, and I didn't know who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that I was shocked and I was starting to feel really uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick, so I stopped making it about it. He told me that YouTube were planning on getting a divorce and how the spends were on board with the divorce and that I shouldn't feel bad about it at all. Wow, that is so crazy.

Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with so many lives and go to sleep at night knowing that you've manipulated everyone in your life. From the moment he woke up until the moment he fell asleep. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini golden doodle from Crocodoodles. And one bit late, the cover. Now I know what you're thinking, talking dogs? Well, hold on to your tails because it gets better than that. I mean, not better, like, more impressive than a talking dog exactly. But if you apply now at Crocodoodles.com,

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Did you realize at the time that what he was doing is illegal? I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid. I didn't really think about it. He just made sure in my head, keep what we have. Keep this safe because this is special. That's all I ever thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until, you know, when I told my parents.

So, talk to me about why you decided to tell your parents. I planned on not telling them at all. I tried to take this to the grave. I didn't want to tell anyone. I had this health class and she was talking about STBs. And I never thought about that when I was 15, 16, 17. I never thought about that until I took that class and I remember her doing this demonstration.

Everyone was lining up in the classroom and it was something really simple, like just people, like touching each other's shoulders in class. He was showing how it could spread so easily. I don't know, it just clicked, I guess. I just remember being scared that maybe I had caught something. I put all the stories he told me together. He was boasting about this one interaction he had with two women.

And it just like all these things kind of popped in my head at the time and I got and it just scared me. What was that story? He had told me that he had a three way with two women. He would he would tell me things. Telling your parents that had to have been so hard. You know, when I did tell them, I felt like I immediately regretted it. Regretted. I felt responsible for what my parents went through. That I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I felt like I regretted that for a while.

I never regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing. They never made me feel any type of shame. Was there any relief when you did tell your parents? Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents, although, you know, the healing process, you and I both know it. It's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse, you go back and forth. Sometimes like at first I sometimes regretted it just because of all the pain that it brought up.

I felt like I dragged them into something that I didn't even plan on telling anyone at all. Gosh, it's so interesting that you say burden, that you put this huge burden on them, because I did that too with my family and friends, with my whole community. I mean, we all had to deal with it. My problem was their problem. Yeah. After you reported it to the police, did they tell you what the next step was gonna be?

Did you know what would happen after that? I wasn't even thinking about the next step at the time. I mean, I'm pretty sure that they let me know that certain court hearings would happen. But other than that, I was just processing this whole thing and trying to sit with my parents through it. Did you know that he would be arrested? I did, yeah. By that time, you know, I realized that when I was going through wasn't right, you know, feeling depressed and just completely devastated all the time.

I had an inkling that this was legally wrong. It must have been hard to share the intimate details that you had to share with them. It was, but the police didn't make me feel humiliated, you know, they were very understanding. As you, you know, retooled the story to the police, did you realize then how wrong, like, did the pieces all start kind of coming together? It did, you know, just as I got older and what really happened for me was when he was deployed

and he was just gone, that I could see things more clearly. And you know, that last time, you know, senior year, when he was gone, I felt relief. That I could kind of start opening up to being more me, not just hiding myself away. And I could start to also see things more clearly. And I realized how good I felt when he was gone versus when I was always under his watch. You know, he had that power over me. So when he was gone, I could actually breathe, you know. And through that I got a lot of clarity. It just clicked. That makes so much sense. He was deployed January 2018. He came back from deployment two weeks before graduation.

What about all the comments? I know on social media people commented on the news stories people commented. A lot of people, a lot of students, a lot of former students, pretty much anybody I talked to didn't believe it. And we're shocked. Said he would be the last person that would ever do something like this. I mean, I didn't think this then, but I know this now it's always the people that you least expect. You know, that's what I read, you know, with research. At that time, when people were saying that I had made it up or that a student was maybe making it up, I wasn't necessarily angry because it can happen that people do make these things up. But I knew that I was standing in my true because there was evidence.

You know, they would see it, you know, as soon as he got convicted. So I wasn't necessarily angry. If you hadn't spoken up, what do you think would have happened? I think there would have been another victim. Thank God. I mean, you saved my life and you were brave enough to do that. And I know it kind of sounds dramatic, but literally you saved my life. I mean, I was put in a really dangerous position.

You was also doing this to grown women. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of people that are silently thanking you. You know, a grown woman is saying thank you for speaking up. I'm just happy he's stopped. It's gone with him. So tell me about how the school responded. I had actually never been in the courtroom,

not for the criminal investigations or anything like that. This was the first time I was in court for the civil matter. When I was in court for the summer judgment, they made it sound like it was in a way my fault because according to them it was my decision to take the class and you know they called it a relationship which made it sound like it was on me. They made me feel like the guy was on trial in a way. It was pure victim shaming. I just felt so misunderstood. I usually, you know, keep things together.

I don't, you know, I don't cry in public. That's just how I am, but I broke down. I felt so misunderstood. I can't even begin to say how hurtful it really was to have the schools say that in the way this was my fault. That's a lot. That's something no one should ever, ever have to go through. This isn't about me anymore. This is bigger than me now.

What happened to me happened to me. I'm working on my healing and you know I'm doing what I gotta do. But there are other kids out there who are now going through the same thing. It's about them, especially with Cobb County. You know this is happening again with them. And I feel so sorry for the family involved. This is a fight for all the kids who feel like they can't speak up. And no wonder I felt like I couldn't speak up at the time, because look what happened for me speaking up. They shamed me. I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff, if it can help one other person be brave? Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think this is a rare thing for someone in your

position and someone in my position to come together and unite against something so horrific that happened to you and I and other women. Especially this happened before at Cal. There was a girl who was assaulted and she was shamed. And there are victims now and there will be in the future because of the negligence of the system. I just hope that this will help someone out there. That's all I want. I just want this to help someone who's going through the same pain

that you went through and that I went through. That's all. I was shaking so hard when we first started talking. And I just, I have none of that nervousness anymore. I am so blown away by the adult that you have become after going through that as a child. Thank you. And I'm proud of you. I really appreciate that. So what does your future look like? I've been stuck for so long. You know, over analysis paralysis, it was sometimes consuming.

My plan is that I wanna get to this point where I'm okay with myself and I can start putting myself out there again. I'm slowly opening up. It's just, it takes time. It really takes time. Oh, I know slowly opening up. It's just, it takes time, it really takes time. Oh, I know. I remember there were days I just would call my mom crying and say, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore. I just had to keep reminding myself baby steps and I've come a

long way. You have, I mean, from what you went through and then you reaching out to me, that was very courageous. I just am really proud that I get to talk to someone like you and that I can share this. This is what helps keep the world a good place. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Looking back at that 15-year-old, what would you tell her? I would tell her it's going to be okay. And I would say I love you. Coming up on this season of betrayal,

I'll talk with some of the women who had affairs with Spence. I put this. I was being used whenever there was any, but I really thought that he looked me. I came to your house once. He invited a woman into my house. He did, and I bet I wasn't the only one. And I'll also speak with Spencer

himself. Steps, Ardys and consent to this recording call, press one. And on next week's episode, all of these girls, every single one of them, he would message them, let's get coffee, let's get drinks. Nicole's boyfriend actually told her to stop texting him because he was like,

this is your high school teacher, why is he asking you to go get drinks? You're 18. We were all like, oh, it's just go tear it. If you'd like to reach out to the betrayal teamal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's BetrayalPOD at gmail.com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHAR Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, Written and produced by Carrie Hartman,

also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick, special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans, sound editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio, the Trails theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by My Music, and for more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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