Betrayal - S1: E8 - Thank You For Your Time

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

After more than two years of not speaking and four years since seeing one another, Jenifer and Spencer finally speak. Jenifer re-asks him questions hoping time and reflection will provide clarity. Andrea and Jenifer explore how Jen transformed over the time Betrayal was produced and the impact the series has had on some members of the audience.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. Step charges and consent to this recording call, press one. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now. Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm making it. I'm doing good. Spend so long since he's so.

Oh, gosh. It's forever. That was Spencer Heron. The real Spencer Heron. On the phone from present. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Episode 8. Thank you for your time. Spencer was apprehensive about going on the record with Jennifer, citing concern for

his family and publicity. However, he did agree to speak with Jennifer, and they spoke on a recorded line. They spoke for nearly an hour after not having talked to each other for more than two years. This was an important conversation for Jen, for her personally, but also to hear how he views the situation four years later. And there was some curiosity. Has his incarceration changed his perspective? And what does he plan to do when he's released? Here are excerpts from their call. I just wanted to see if he's willing to answer some questions.

Well, it's the realization, OK? Since you know you're going to, obviously, you're going through with it. And he says, it, he is referring to this project, the podcast, what you're listening to right now. The realization of it not being over for me, and it's hard enough trying to imagine the difficulties I'm going to face anyway. And this seems just like another layer of it. And that freaks me out.

Essentially, Spencer is concerned that making more people aware of his story will make post-present life more difficult for him. But I can't, obviously, keep you from doing what you need to do to feel better for yourself. Yeah. I know I keep getting back to this, but I'm just so curious, is to like, what you think about that light you were living. The main thing I can say is that it had gotten so out of control that it was, I don't wanna say living in life of its own, because Habit Shah was in control of control, that it was, I don't want to say,

living a life of its own, because Habit Jai was in control of it, but he had taken on dominance in my life that I didn't see coming. Even with the warnings that I had, it obviously wasn't enough to stop everything. Warnings, like Jennifer's friends has been calling him,

Spencer knew he could tell Jen at any time. Right, but you say, didn't she come in, but like, it was happening before we got married. Yeah. It was happening all those years before we got married. So knowing that you were like this, why get married? Well, that's the part that's going to be difficult for you to understand or believe. I didn't intended to keep going. You never stopped. Correct. So at what point did you intend for it not to continue?

Oh, from the day that we got back together. Okay, but knowing it was continuing and that you didn't stop, why did you get married? The intentions are always on the positive side, but my actions would win over those intentions. One of the main things I can explain is the ease of the way I found myself in those situations. I'm trying to use an analogy. I've been to three different grocery stores. Even though you don't want to go shop there anymore. It's easier to go to the stores, you've already been to those stores. You're not looking for another store to go to,

just that store still open. What I'm just trying to say is that once you had been pulling around for so long, it's not like you got to figure out how am I going to fool around? I'm not sure how all those women would feel about the growth restore analogy. A few years earlier in his letters, like the ones we heard in episode 7, Spencer seemed to deny culpability by saying women just made themselves available to him. Had time changed the story? And one of the letters that you wrote me, you said that you never thought after it. Do you still feel that way? Well, yes.

And I got to answer this in two ways. Yes, meaning that I was never on a long path that I chose to seek it out. It's just an opportunity with presented self. And then before I knew it, I was personally it. Probably not an answer that makes much sense. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. Because I'm sitting with you. I have seen so much correspondence

that I do feel like you thought after it. Saw it after might include, come by the wine bar. I'm single for the next few days. I understand that. I would never argue that that's how you saw it. And I'm sure that no matter how much we talk, there's going to be some things that will make sense. They don't make sense to me either.

And I was the one involved in it. As much as I want to make it better, I know there's going to be a lot of things that aren't. No matter what I say, it's not going to make it better. No, no, no, no. Nothing will ever make it better. Not after everything I've read and seen and be a mount. I'll never understand it.

I am fastened at how you've managed so many affairs, multiple at a time. When you look back, do you think you might have a problem? And I'm not being facetious. Well, my opinion doesn't matter until I get out there. You can say you don't think you ever found an alcohol, if you never had an alcohol around you. I'm dealing with guys who've been in for decades to the eyes that have just come in a year, you know, most of the fat and the crib system are females.

And they're not attractive with it. And I mean, to me, you know, you've got a picture for you, right? And these guys will go crazy. Guys in the county jail, we're going crazy and masturbating. Publicly masturbating. That still happens to me. Now that's a problem. Maybe it's different problems, but it's definitely what I don't have.

I don't care about that. The last time we talked, I think you felt as if you were fine and cured and it has gone away. I still feel that way, but that's only how I feel. I don't know. No one knows what anything's going to be tomorrow. But the thing is, I guess you and I think of your situation differently because I look at what you were doing our entire marriage our entire marriage from before and the entire every single day of our marriage. You look me in the eye and lied to me. There are probably days and I hope to God not many where you ended up having to sleep with me and another woman on the same day.

You brought women into our homes. Your sense of betrayal is not a sense at all, it is a very real thing. And I would expect you to deal with it no differently. Any sane person with deal with it, the way you're dealing with it, which is to be dumbfounded into the angry and everything else that you've felt. I'm never going to put words in your mouth or emotions in your personality, but all those things make sense. I couldn't skirt around that if I wanted to. Why would I want to? But do you not see an issue that might need some work? You got to the point where you were breaking the law, not to mention the disgustingness of it. Do you ever think about the victim?

Yeah, of course. I'm sure that's why I'm still here. No immediate expression of remorse. Rather, he thinks of the victim's impact on his parole. I'm not too in my own order, just look at the facts. Anybody makes parole with something like me. I just don't know what to say. I mean, I guess good for her. Yeah. There has been three, four, five, six times, and they get out on parole every time.

And I'm not bitter about that. I don't even think about the TC anymore. I don't think about prolonging more. I do the next thing. I'm supposed to do that hour. I do the next right thing. Every hour. And then the next thing after that. And then I go to sleep and I do it all over again. Are you surprised that she would do that? I'm surprised that the system more than I'm surprised at her.

I'm surprised that the system gives false hope and tells you something's gonna happen and then takes it back. That's what I say. Yeah but they couldn't know that she was gonna come forward. Well we don't know. We just were assuming and that's a really good assumption. I bet a hundred bucks on it. Actually we do know. In an earlier episode we learned that the victim wrote and delivered a letter to the parole board herself. So no, I'm not surprised. I'm sure it was her family when it was her. Why do you think that?

She's an adult now. That doesn't matter. That's all just, you know, interesting drama for the story. What matters is that she is hopefully moving on and as much as I wish I could take it back, I can't take it back. So I can just hope to play for everybody involved to be okay and then move on. Yeah, it's taking a long, long time. because it gets better than that. I mean, not better, like, more impressive than a talking dog, exactly. But if you apply now at Crocodotals.com, you could adopt me or any other breed we offer with just a few easy steps, whether you find a match immediately

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to share it with the podcast. Do you remember when he was first supposed to be pulled? It was last year. It was, I think, either around September or October. Yeah, of 21, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, when you found this out, you decided to write this letter.

Do you mind reading it? Yeah, and I was thinking of actually just saying my first name, only because this podcast has gotten so much attention. And I thought maybe this could be an example for other people or kids to not be afraid. What you did was so brave and incredible. It's obviously up to you. I just thought it's one thing to say, oh, the victim, right? It's so hard for me.

And you know, I'm so protective of you and your identity, but like, yeah, calling you the victim, you know, it's just yeah I get it obviously yeah you know you're just so much more than that to me thank you so I wrote to whom it may concern first I would like to say that I don't know what to say other than I am still in my process of healing from what Spencer Heron did to me, starting from when I was 15 up until the very early stages of my adult life. At first when I received the letter with news of him being up for parole, I didn't want to respond or say anything because all I would like to do is move on with my life. However, I realized then that it's exactly what he would want.

It would have been a disservice to myself and all the young girls out there had I not come forward in the first place. And even now, years later, I am responding to this because I believe she should not be granted cruel. People like Spencer Heron, who prey on the innocence and trust of adolescents, do not wake up one day and decide to sexually assault these children. People like him take the time to select their victims and begin the grooming process, just as he did with me.

This takes strategy, time, and effort on their part. I wasn't the first victim and I will not be the last if he is released. Predators such as Spencer Heron cannot control their perversions nor are they willing to. This ends up hurting not only the victims but their families as well just like he did to mine. I know a side of him that not many do and I still live with those images in my mind every day. He is cool, calculated, manipulative, deceitful, and violent.

He has no regard for who he hurts, and I am afraid that there will be more victims if granted, cool. I'm also afraid for myself. I hope this letter will be taken into consideration. Thank you for taking the time to reap this in serally racial. Such a powerful letter to the parole board. And on this podcast, bravely putting her anonymity behind her,

claiming her strength, because she's more than a victim. She's a Rachel. Whether he would get her old or not, Spencer would eventually be released. Jen wanted to know, was he prepared? If you want to be successful, don't you think you should think about getting some help? I am, but I can't say that I'm going to until I know what I'm going to be up against

when I get out there. Do you guys have therapy and success in person? Nothing even close to anything you might even possibly imagine. Well, that's why I was wondering what your plan is for after you get out. My first plan, and only real plan, is to make sure I'm successful on probation or parole. Because it's not outlanded right back here. So since we last spoke, like, have you gotten more about

what kind of life you had been leading? Of course, I mean, that's what you do when you have all this time and year. You can reflect on everything and then, hopefully, if your person wants to change, then you figure out how to do it. How do you change it to the best of your ability? You really spend? Yeah, maybe that's the part that you don't understand because you've never been to prison. Let me tell you, no sane person would ever come back here. Ever, I've earned my time. I've done it.

Well, I haven't finished it yet, but I will have done it. And to your point about how I'm going to deal with things, I'm going to look at somebody square and high and go, I've done, but I was told I had to do. And if you aren't cool with that, then we just won't have to lead on to be cool. And I know that's going to be the majority in my last year, the majority of my past contacts.

I'm going to use the word friends. He had done what he was told he had to do. A clean slate, that's what he was after. However, he'll still serve 15 years probation and will be registered as a sex offender. I mean, almost everyone. As you know, the people have come out to support me outside of one or two people have

been all surprises. So I've seen the miracle and how God has used people to get me through this. I've witnessed it, I've experienced it, and I know it's going to be the same on the out there. I don't have to have as many friends I had before. What I'm saying is I understand, and we'll always understand why people are going to forever pull back. There's going to probably be a little backspence because of what you did.

I'm just making the point that it's the betrayal It hurts sometimes more than the action. I'm not opposed to getting help I'm not opposed to any of that kind of stuff. I'm not saying I don't need it when I'm saying it is I have to I have to take one thing at a time and the first thing I have to take Prologue making sure I'll ever get in this trouble you But how do you do that? You you stay under the radar. You put it stay under the radar before. You've got lucky that you got away with it for so long.

I know you're being facetious when you say that. We win. Well, I was in lucky. You got away with it. I was unlucky that I was going away with it. It was better for it to all gone to shit the first time. That's the truth. Was he saying that if he had just gotten caught having a consensual affair, he wouldn't have

committed sexual assault on a teenager? You have one minute left. The call ended. It was polite. Kurt. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Hi.

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And then when we started this podcast, you know, I wanted to talk with him. Were you nervous about talking with him? Like what were you feeling when you had answered that phone call? Because he had to call you. Well, I see the call coming in and it says, will cock state prison? And my stomach just turns and I get so nervous. And part of it was, I knew when I answered that he was going to be all happy and excited to hear from me and everything. And that just, it doesn't sit well with me.

Like, does he not understand? Yeah. He's just, I guess it's denial. Do you recognize the person on the phone on the other side? Yes, definitely. He sounds the same, talks the same, tries to spin everything into a positive, almost. And the thing is, I'm sure you notice this. He avoids answering any questions. And how did you feel after the call? I got off the phone with him for the call. I got off the phone with him and realized that I never need to speak to him again.

Wow. I just feel like I can wash my hands of it. Partly because I'm never going to get the answers. He's not capable. And it doesn't matter. It's not my problem. It's his problem. I feel like I have put the final piece in a box that I can like pack up, tape up, and put away in the attic. We haven't even talked about this yet, but you reached out about an update on his parole. Well, I have a friend that has been so amazing the last four years at always searching to see if dates have changed for parole or whatever, and so I woke up one morning to a text, just the other day that said he's getting released June 2022. So within the next three weeks he's going to be out. Oh he could be out tomorrow. Right. Andrea do you remember last summer when we talked on the phone and I was telling you about how Spence was supposed to get paroled like in October. You were in the car like his started to cry.

Yes, and I was really scared. So then when the parole got revoked because the victim wrote the letter, you know, I thought he was going to be in there until June 2023. How does June 2022 differ from June 2021? I think I've just done a lot more work on understanding this mess that I was in and this relationship. And I've healed a lot. And I have to say the first time that we were in the studio together, I was

really angry. I mean it was still raw and I was angry at the women and you looked at me and you said, Jennifer, you're really angry at these women and I think you need to take a look at that. I was pissed. I was like what is she talking about but I thank you for that because I got there and you seeing that from the beginning and then seeing it when I was able to talk with some of these women and the compassion that was there, I just, I felt it. Yeah, and I said like I will not do this project with you if it's coming from a place of anger. I need to be coming from a place of curiosity and trying to reclaim your life and you made a commitment to me that day that you would get there.

I just, I hadn't learned it at that point. I was still researching and there was so much to read and then the same story over and over and over and over again with so many different women. I just had to learn. So thanks for sticking it out with me. Absolutely. Thanks for sticking it out with me. Heck yeah. I want to play you something from episode three. Mm-hmm. When you were talking to Rachel,

you said something really important, and she said something similar. I just hope that this will help someone out there. I just want this to help someone who's going through the same pain that you went through and that I went through. That's all. I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff, if it can help one other person be brave? I just know that helping other victims, you know, of trial, trauma, grooming, abusive power, was a big part of embarking on this project for you, for Rachel, for me, and our other producers. And I think that's why she told her story, felt comfortable coming to you. So I hope it's okay but I wanted to spend some time

to read you some of the letters that we've received from our audience if that's okay. Sure. Listening to Jennifer's story helped me realize more about an experience I had when I was in high school. I had still not fully made the connection between my experience and being a victim of grooming as a teenager. Putting those missing pieces together has helped me process an untangle of some things in really shame I didn't realize it was still there. Jennifer, thank you for being courageous and sharing your story. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna cry. Well, I am crying. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna cry. Well, I am crying. Here's another one.

In 2008, I was 22 years old, and my 55-year-old boss did many of these exact same things. He somehow talked me into having an affair. I felt beyond sick and uncomfortable about it ever since. I didn't say no, but I wanted to. He made me feel special, all the shitty things. It was a type of an assault on my psyche, my mind, my heart, and my conscience. It took me until this podcast, 37 years old, to finally forgive myself. Thanks for giving me space to sit with my

feels and open the door to something I didn't think I could heal from. Oh God, she is. Here's the last one I wanted to share. I discovered my husband calling and visiting massage parlors, offering sexual favors by underage girls whom I believe are victims of trafficking. I relate to the fairy tale, picture us life of dreams to come in history. Proposed to at a castle in Germany, I've never been a princess type, but he sure made me feel like one.

My family loved him as he offered a helping hand to anyone in need, total boy scout, do good or facade, that was all in genuine and too good to be true. Jennifer, your story is exactly what I needed to hear at this moment in my life. It has truly impacted my life in the best ways and restored my hope and the potential resilience and recovery and healing of the human spirit, much love and gratitude. You know, I was really scared to put this out there.

It's so personal, it's not a comfortable topic. What do you think you've learned from this? Man, how to be patient, how to be resilient, how to just have faith that the sun would come up the next day. And so hearing that it has helped other people, that's it, that's the whole reason that I did this. I feel like you did your job, Jen. We are beyond grateful to our listeners for the outpouring of support. Since we've started so many of you have written into BetrayalPod at Gmail.com,

with your personal experiences and questions associated with this story. Our plan is to address them, so we're taking a few weeks off. A plan to bring you new episodes, new insights very soon. Stay tuned. If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Petrile.pod.d at gmail.com. Petrile is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass and Our Team and Group in partnership with IHAR Podcasts.

The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, Written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick, sound editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio. The Trails theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by my music, and for more podcasts from I Heart,

visit the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini-golden doodle from Crocodoodles. Now I know what you're thinking, talking dogs? Well, hold on to your tails because it gets better than that. I mean, not better, like, more impressive than a talking dog exactly, but if you apply now at Crocodoodles.com, you could adopt me or any other breed we offer with just a few easy steps.

Each puppy is raised by a network of families that deliver exceptional doodles anywhere in the United States. Crocodoodles is making families whole. One pup at a time. Let's face it, no one like summer shaving a razor burn. This summer make your skin care routine less-hactic and try laser hair removal with one free treatment at my Lon Laser Hair Removal. Visit any of our five Raleigh Durham locations for a free consultation to go over your

exact needs and hair free goals with a laser hair removal expert. Put Stunningly Smooth Skin Front and Center. Call 833NoRaser or visit NeverShaveAgain.com to book your free treatment and consultation. That's NeverShaveAgain.com For dogs, fear and anxiety can sound like this. If that sounds like your dog during scary stuff like thunderstorms and fireworks, travel, or when you leave them home alone, ThunderShirt can help. ThunderShirt provides gentle calming pressure by easily and comfortably wrapping around your dog's torso, keeping them calm and is shown to help in over 80% of dogs with anxiety.

Order now at bythundershirt.com and receive a free bag of calming shoes with the purchase of any thundershirt. That's bythundershirt.com. www.patreon.com