Betrayal - S1: E9 - Grooming

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

A reoccurring theme throughout the series has centered around grooming. Rachel and the women with whom Spencer had affairs related how he built trust and leveraged vulnerabilities over time. Our audience, through emails to the show, has had conflicting and passionate feelings about what grooming is and who can be groomed. This week, Jenifer and Andrea speak to Jerika Heinze, who is both a survivor and an expert to shed light on what grooming is and the many insidious ways it works. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. All of a sudden, there he is standing there with this very abrupt information that, you know, I find you attractive, I think you're beautiful, I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level, trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now. And then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going along with it. Now we've shared a kiss.

There usually is a feeling that there's a point of no return. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Episode 9. Gruming. During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that Jennifer's then-husband Spencer had dozens of affairs and sexually assaulted one of his students. Rachel, the student, bravely recounted her experience on an earlier episode. She painstakingly recounted how a trusted adult in her life, groomed her by first becoming a trusted mentor and confident to a sexual predator. It was hard to hear but a

lesson in how adults manipulate children. I think I was more confused with a grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for me that you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings. And as a kid, it's shocking. When someone tells you at the time that they love you, and they have these feelings for you that they don't want to hide, and that you're special, it was a shock. I remember him specifically saying that he had never

felt this way before with anyone and that I was special to him. That's how he made me feel, he made me feel special and I could trust him if I ever needed to talk to him about anything personal. That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen, would you mind reading one of those emails? Sure. This may sound scattered because I'm a stay-at-home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel. I was groomed by my teacher in coach.

He was very calculated and preyed upon me just like Rachel. I'd never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave and a huge encouragement for me. Wow. I know, right? It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes you feel like you've done something wrong.

But then when you hear other people tell a similar story, it's just like, wow, this happens to other people. So it must not just be my fault or it must not be my fault at all. And we're seeing this in the emails, there's so much relief. And there's like a weight lifted. I mean there were so many others just like the one that you just read. Actually including students of your ex-husband. Yeah. We got a lot of feedback but the ones that actually knew him or were one of his students at some point in his career. Mm-hmm. Oh, man. It's sickening.

It's sickening. And it's consistent. Yeah. After we heard Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the women that your husband, at the time, carried long-term affairs with. And these went on for years. One of the women was also a friend of yours at the time.

Let's hear a little bit of that, okay? The way I was talked to to feel good about myself and to trust him, surely that happened to that same girl. I bet you any money, it was the same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like, I can't do this.

This is wrong. Well, no, no, it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people just click like we do. It's grooming. It is grooming. And they don't mind taking the time to build that trust. We received a lot of emails about this particular episode. You know, out of all the episodes,

this one getting the most feedback from was really interesting. I think that really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult? It was so interesting. So many people were just curious, but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do you mind sharing one of those?

Sure. I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly I decided it was time to forgive myself from a relationship that has weighed on me for far too long. I don't make excuses and I take full responsibility for my decisions. However, now I realize that I was a perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was the wrong kind of attention. a sense of caring attention, even if it was the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to what you went through, but Spence in this sky seemed to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached others. Emails like that make me feel really great.

Why? There was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for you and the other women involved the Spencer, hearing from the other women allows them to release that shame a little bit. You know, people would ask, why did you need to talk to these women? And I understand that some people are going to think it's weird or strange or something like that, but that's how you understand someone else's side of things. You listen to what they went through and you realize that they were lied to,

they were manipulated. There were a lot of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend. Yeah, you want me to read this one? Email we got? Yeah, share. The woman who had an affair with a married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming no. She was an adult and he was not in position of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of this word and takes away from those of us who are

really groomed. You may want to provide some additional information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath. Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown adult women and no right from wrong. I feel it's a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can make their own decisions. We are not weak helpless creatures. I think it would be a far more effective message to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and not portray them as victims. When we read that email about how language matters, I was like, absolutely, it does. And so let's have a larger conversation and educate the audience

about what grooming is and really explore that conversation in this forum because so many people reached out about it, just wanting to know what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference between what happened to Rachel and these other women or how are they similar, how are they dissimilar. I think we have been very responsible in telling this story. And so when we did get this feedback,

we decided to seek out an expert to really help define this stuff. Absolutely. And look, our job was to tell your story and let women involved speak for themselves and tell their true and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a lot of guts to do that. It really did.

But it's also clear that we need to do some more work on defining grooming and a more clinical way. So we sought out a top expert. Jerica Heinezy is a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, and also the founder of the Field Work Initiative, an organization which addresses issues of trauma, engendered violence, and academia, and research field work.

Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power, and violence prevention. Thank you Jerica for spending some time with us. Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting, but more so because they've been so historically absent in conversations that have had in our society. And I think having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form of prevention.

So thank you so much for the opportunity to do that, of course. So, Jerica, how did you get into this line of work and become an expert in this field? I myself have experiences of grooming, and that culminated into sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a sexual assault. I was still a PhD student with an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor, a person who in my research field was helping and guiding me for many years offering help and aid and trust in that individual who was significantly older than me. But I was still a very much an adult woman, I was in my late 20s. Since that, who was significantly older than me, but I was still a very much an adult woman

I was in my late 20s. Since that, there was another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area, and that was what fully initiated the creation of Fieldwork Initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center is looking very broadly at topics of the sexual abuse or gender violence domestic violence

and thinking about survivor-led and centred resources for folks. For the past three years, I have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse, and that kind of lended itself to a corpus of knowledge that's training and informational where we shed light on this issue about grooming, about the abuses of power and how those dynamics unfold.

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The day that guy went into a coma. Beth Dover. Whatever you want, I don't have it, but I'm a damn good lawyer so I can get it. Joe Lotulio. When you say you killed someone, talk more about that. John Grise.

Why won't anybody help me? Luke Cook. We took a blood oath, remember? With Darren Chris? I can't move. I can't move my body. What happened to me? And Wayne Knight.

If you got the crime, I've got the time. Narrated by yours truly, Jane Lynch. The bystanders of season two, listen exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So is it safe to say that your experience you went through as a PhD student changed the course of your career? Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean, I had this fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like my thing. of your career? Yeah, that's absolutely spot on.

I mean, I had this fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other organization exists, that shed light in the same way. So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only the sexual assault victim, but

also with a couple of the adult women that my ex-husband had had affairs with. The question that came up a lot for us is how exactly do you define grooming? Gruming is a concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind, painting a picture that will align and allow them to perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection with the people they target, which allows them to set a stage of hiding and playing side. He's a teacher, he would never do that, he's such a great member in a coach. That targeting earning of trust with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that through sexual abuse, financial abuse, we see

grooming with elder adults, right? You know, fiduciary abuse. So grooming is not anything that is specific to anyone, an age group, anyone individual. You know, anybody is susceptible to be groomed. Ah, that is so helpful to know because as you know, my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about grooming in this case and it's been a topic of so much debate. Jericho, one of the things that I feel like we noticed with a lot of my ex-husband's communication with these women were to kind of pray on their vulnerabilities, saying things to them like how beautiful they are. And I haven't felt this way before. Lines like that. Would you consider that grooming?

Oh, absolutely. Praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does that person need to hear to kind of turn the key for this situation to take flight? And, you know, what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know, at the bar of the initial contact, was that she was coming out of the bathroom and she had had a little bit of wine and that all of a sudden that abrupt he's standing there, he's

saying these things. You know, if we look at our brains when something unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit up like the 4th of July. There's confusion of what's happening, what does it mean, what's lit up like the Fourth of July. There's confusion of what's happening, what does it mean, what's going on? And all of a sudden, there is standing there with this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I think you're beautiful.

I want to kiss you. It's very confusing. I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level, trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now. And then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going along with it. Now we've shared a kiss. Now that person has become part of it. It's not as we might imagine it would

go where we expect a person to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this or you know, it's all very much praying on opportunism of the person not expecting and also the idea that that person is special and that they're the only one. And that it's not really a bad thing because I see how special you are. How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult, they have agency? That feels different than someone

that doesn't have any sexual experience. There was so young, and really doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And then if you have someone who has lived in the world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring that judgment to those scenarios. So how do you respond to, you know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency? There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities are kind of created and exploited.

But there's no magic age or a set age in which we're actually fully formed adults that are completely moved on from any of the things that we might have struggled with in our past or our traumas. And those are different for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual abuse is going to have a different experience with that than somebody who did not have those experiences.

And so it's important not to be so kind of on and off about where we imagine adults, agency lies, and more so think about trauma and its role in all of our thinking and all of our concepts of ourselves and how we move through the world. That's so interesting. In the case of the two women I spoke to that are adults that had affairs, I think Spence used making them feel beautiful, specifically for them. Do groomers look for a certain personality type? I think grooming is quite across the board.

There was grooming of neighbors and parents at school. There was grooming of the co-workers, planting that idea about them being a trustworthy individual and planting that idea about who they were is a form of grooming as well. We do know that when groomers see an opening of a vulnerability, they are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and seeing and testing

sort of where they can insert themselves and insert and yield that power over them. And then over time sort of slowly portraying that image but where the victim still has that strong image in their mind because there was such an oppression made and there was everybody else is holding the same idea. And how is that different if it's different than being a sexual predator? We see at times with sexual predators even though they might have a desire or an inclination. There may not in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that we see with grooming. Brooming is that false sense of an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds

over time. They're also never the same person twice if we ask an array of people who they are and what they know about them. We might hear things about that person we would never even imagine are possible because there's a portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand it to you. That makes so much sense to me. So much of this project has been about trying to see the many different portraits,

my ex-husband painted to others, Spence painted himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted himself as the perfect husband, and I was his perfect wife. And you just usually accept it as we do in society. If I were to tell you I was an astronaut, you know, what reason would you not believe that that's true?

Especially if I say it with confidence and have a certain way in which I carry myself with that information. And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives, be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power of it. He orchestrated an emotional connection with many, many of these women, obviously with the sexual assault victim herself. But also, I think with a lot of these other grown women. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini golden doodle from Crocodoodles.

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The bystanders, your favorite dark comedy podcast is back with an all- new story and all new characters. Starring. Kathleen Turner. He's gonna pick me to die. I know it. You guys don't realize who I am.

Marker Cho. You're punishing us, aren't you? You all figured out we were there the day that guy went into a coma. Beth Dover. Whatever you want, I don't have it, but I'm a damn good lawyer so I can get it. Joe Lotulio. When you say you killed someone, talk more about that. John Grise.

Why won't anybody help me? Luke Cook. We took a blood oath, remember? With Darren Chris? I can't move. I can't move my body. What happened to me? And Wayne Knight.

If you got the crime, I've got the time. Narrated by yours truly, Jane Lynch. The bystanders of season two, listen exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted to ask you, Jerika, one of the questions was how do victims who are experiencing grooming shut it down. And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down, it just didn't sit right with me because it just felt like it was on the victim. You know, those who do not shut it down are weak. Those who do not shut it down need to work on themselves. They're not strong. And there's

like this like weird inherent criticism to that phrase. There usually is a feeling that there's a point of no return that if that person knew that you told someone you're going to be in trouble or that, oh, will we kiss now? The cat's out of the bag. Yeah, how can victims know that no matter what has happened, there's always a way to step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize that that's their right and that they have the freedom to do it and that they're going to be believed and they're not going to be blamed things like that. And I think that telling survivors that no matter how long something has gone on, no matter what has happened, that you always have a right to set it down by saying and expressing

it. It's like, oh, but so much has already happened. I have to somehow spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or make it better. There's some sort of burden about it not being as bad or I have to somehow go down with the shipper. There's so many ways people might feel it and just letting people know, no matter what has happened, no matter how long it's gone on,

you always have the right to say, you know what, I'm gonna speak my truth about this. This has been happening, this has happened. And that there's always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone we trust, usually begins with feeling empowered to do that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy, it's scary, it's extremely scary, it's one of the scariest things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible.

When you're scared or operating from a place of fear, it's really hard to think rationally. We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that hyper vigilant creates this thing in our brain where we have to imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next. We're going to be blamed, no one's going to believe us. They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why we need more trauma informed education starting from a young age. Why we need these kinds of conversations. Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women that I've spoken with is they were really upset and angry with themselves for falling for

it. I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about grooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event. You've played a role, and this is why I think for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife, we can't really look back and think that there was any even red flags. But thinking too, the fact that all of these victims of cells played in some way, you know, that the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you didn't push me away. You know, you could have said no at any moment, you didn't have to

text me back. You could have told the police at any moment if you didn't want to. You could have walked away, you know, this is the way in which it happens. And so what happens is the victims feel this as the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are so successful. They find that little wedge between where they can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're going to emuliate them, but also drive that wedge. Well, yeah, this is bad, but you know, I didn't act alone.

You kiss me too. And that's where so many victims feel shame and guilt and self-propability. What we do is we look back on our role and then think of a thousand ways we could have and should have done it different. So what are some resources that you suggest for people who have gone through this? I think all victims need therapy. Of course, having a space to talk about this, I think that having a connection with other survivors is immensely important.

When we have group sessions, the kinds of connections that can be made between two individuals, where we can say, hey, I see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't. And the other person says, yeah, well, you're doing the same thing. It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a one-dimensional way or internally. We need to be much more outward about it, talking about it, saying, hey, I feel really bad right now about the way that, you know, I'm feeling about it, and it might be on a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling is not linear. It's trying to like that, right, and the same with these feelings in these emotions. So I think the first thing that survivors need to know is that there are spaces and there is help to be able to

let all of these things out from the internal space where they just usually get worse and faster. So it's really important to find each other and speak about it in whatever setting is comfortable. Be that in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting, be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to create post-traumatic growth, where we can say, you know,

I choose to create an narrative where I see that I was exploited in this way. So starting to try and put tools and survivor's hands to realize the power they have now, even though they're nursing wounds, to create that post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again, that is so immensely plural, what it looks like to the individual, and they get to choose what that is. This has been so enlightening and helpful.

And I just thank you so much for all of this information and just educating. Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education we need, and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time with us to talk about it. Thank you so very much. It's the education we need and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time with us to talk about it. Thank you so very much. I just want to share one more email we received that really hit home because I think it's so easy to confuse positive attention

and negative attention. And this listener summed it up so well and I think we both thought it was worth sharing at the end of this episode. Jen, do you mind reading it for us? Dear Jennifer, and the whole crew of Betrayal. For three and a half years, I have been the victim of a predator who has unbeknownst to me until this podcast, been grooming me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming, brilliant, and powerful CEO.

I never had the nerve to tell him to stop, until now. You have given me the power and the nerve, and you have opened my eyes to the fact that it is not flattering to be groomed. I've been in agony for three and a half years, and it stops today. Look at the cry. It's education, right?

Yeah, it's letting people know what this behavior is, so hopefully they can recognize it. Little goes a long way and we just wanna help each other. That's right. If you'd like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at PetrilePod at gmail.com. That's PetrilePOD at gmail.com. Petrile is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHAR Podcasts.

The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, Written and Produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick, sound editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio, the Trails theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by My Music, and for more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. because it gets better than that. I mean, not better, like, more impressive than a talking dog, exactly. But if you apply now at Crocodoodles.com, you could adopt me or any other breed we offer with just a few easy steps. Each puppy is raised by a network of families that deliver exceptional

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