Betrayal - S2: E5 - Beyond Wildest Imagination

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

Ashley and Andrea meet another Utah mom who was stunned when the FBI swarmed her home to arrest her husband.  Then, Andrea visits agents working behind the scenes to protect children from online sexual abuse at the risk of compromising their own mental health.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team email us at [e-mail]  To report a case of child sexual exploitation, call The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's CyberTipline at 1-800-THE-LOST  If you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, find help at stopitnow.org  In the UK reach out to stopitnow.org.uk See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and get it in mission. Yeah, it was me. I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal Episode 5. Beyond Wildest Imagination. We ended up staying in Utah for more than a week. I'm not complaining, it's a beautiful place to wake up and start work every day. Another woman from the Salt Lake City area had reached out to us and we wanted to meet her. Mandy had listened to Jennifer Face in Story

in season one. She wrote, same time Jennifer was going through her trauma, I was going through mine. He was my fairy tale, the love of my life, and I was blindsided to say the least. I lost everything. Hearing Jen's story helped me not feel so alone

and gave me more strength. I can't say enough. Thank you. So we invited Mandy to our Airbnb to meet Ashley. When you're in a small club that no one wants to belong to, it's comforting to meet someone else who's been through it. Here is Mandy speaking with Ashley. What was it about listening to her story that like,

was it just the whole betrayal? Like just the fact that you just knew nothing about the person that you were supposed to know? Everything about... Yeah, I think that's what drew me to it was that it was like that betrayal, but what really got me and what made me even right in was Spencer sounded like my husband. Oh my gosh. In season one of betrayal, Jennifer Fasin told the story of a fairy tale marriage to her

college sweetheart, Spencer Heron. He appeared to be a picture perfect husband and caring high school teacher. When he was arrested, Jennifer was shocked to learn. The reality was her husband had been sexually assaulting one of his students and conducting dozens of affairs during their marriage. His excuses and lack of accountability made Jennifer realize her husband

was a complete stranger. And so then I felt like I connected even more with Jen. What about you? The same. The exact same. The exact same. Really? Yeah.

Listening to Spencer talk, it's just, it's infuriating. And I felt the exact same way. I feel like too, there's going to be some sheds that believe him. Because he is so believable. And then I felt like that was my husband for the last 14 years.

The things that he would say for the reasons that things were happening. Because there was things happening before that I didn't understand and explanations that he would give me, I would be like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Totally makes sense that we're losing the house and you did this and you didn't talk to me about it. Since Ashley and Mandy were both emboldened to share their own stories after

Jen shared hers, we gave Jenna call. I have you on speaker because you're with Ashley and Andy and Mandy has a very similar story to Ashley but they both were, as you know Ashley wrote into the show and so did Mandy, that's how we found her. Oh, wow. Thanks, you guys. Hi. It is so nice to talk to you. You guys too. And I'm really, really sorry about what you have gone through.

You're sweet, Jen. Yep. We're sorry, too, girl. I'm sorry that you went through it, but I'm grateful that you shared your story with us. Well, I was just, you know, looking for anybody who had been in some sort of situation that could relate. I mean, they're not all the same, but you do really feel alone out there. And wonder, you know, does anyone else go through this?

I'm so grateful for you sharing your hardship. Thank you. I wish I was there with you guys. I wish love to. We love you, Jen. As bad as it was, Ashley had a little time. A few hours to process what her husband had done. Mandy had none at all.

I met Michael through a mutual friend I worked with. We started talking on Facebook one day and that's how we started dating. And he was the absolute love of my life. He was the sweetest guy ever. We started dating exclusively at the end of 2012. And then we got married in 2014. It was great. Our marriage was great, I loved it. Mandy had shared with me that Michael and his father

were in business together, but had a falling out in 2015. It was an acrimonious split that left Michael feeling angry and underappreciated. His dad took away the whole business, like went behind his back. It was a really low blow and that really affected my back. When I a really low blow and that really affected Mike that when I got pregnant

with Sophie, he was like, we'll be fine. I'll find another job. He was always into like programming and stuff like that. So he decided that he wanted to do 3D design stuff. He was down in that basement all the freaking time. Mike spent so much time alone in the basement that Mandy thought something nefarious was going on. Maybe he was having an online affair? When he would leave, I would go and look at the computer and at the history and there would be like a regular porn site and I was like, whatever I don't care about that, but it wasn't like excessive, you know. When their daughter Sophie was born, Michael re-engaged with a family for a while.

Then, checked out again. He just wasn't there. He was just never there. Even my mom was like, he's something's going on with him. He's being so weird and I'm like, I know, I don't know what it is. Every time I bring it up or try to talk to me, gas lights me, I don't know what to do.

Then all this other stuff was happening like, when the cars got repossessed and then he short-sold the house and then he couldn't afford to pay the payments of the short sale. So we had to go moving with his mom. It was just like all boom, boom, boom, boom. They lost everything in rapid succession. Mandy didn't have close family support. boom, boom, boom, boom. They lost everything in rapid succession. Mandy didn't have close family support. It was scary. She wrote it out for a while

and eventually Michael found a job at a serial factory. Mandy made extra money working at a local paper company. Michael's mother watched Sophie while they were at work. It was seeming like life was kind of getting a little bit more normal again. He seemed to be pulling himself out even more. He was actually going and doing things with us. So I was really hopeful.

During that period of optimism, Mandy was confronted with a shocking dose of reality. I worked for the midnight. I had just gotten to work. And my phone rang. I was like, oh, I'm not working. I'm so the midnight, I had just gotten to work. And my phone rang. I was like, oh, I'm not working. I'm so the phone, you know? So I ignored it.

And then they called right back. And then they called right back again. And they called right back again. And I was like, he's obviously this is an emergency, you know? So I go and answer my phone and says, guy, and he says that he's a detective. And that they're at my mother-in-law's house. Who incidentally, one week before the detective repeatedly called Mandy at work, two police officers were canvassing her neighborhood.

One day, we were about ready to take Sophie to the park. And this random older Toyota Corolla car pulls up with these two people in it. They get out and I mean they parked like right in front of his mom's house and they see us and they're like, hi they're super friendly and they're like, how are you guys and we're like good and they're like, do you live here and we're like, oh yeah we live here and they're like, oh well we're live here. And they're like, oh, well, we're just with the police department. And we're looking for this guy. And they show a picture of this Hispanic guy. I'm all know.

I haven't seen anybody. And he's like, so who all lives here? And we all introduce ourselves. And then he's like, your husband's here. And I'm like, yeah, he's like, can you go get him? I was like, sure. And so they introduce themselves and ask him the same question, show him the picture. And he's like, no, I haven't seen anything.

And they're like, hopefully, thanks. Now a detective said he needed to come and pick her up at work. I was like, oh my god. And so I'm like, did I do something? Like, I'm all like freaking out. Like, what did I have like this unpaid ticket? And they need to come to me. How like, I was all these thoughts were, and they were like, just give us where you're at. And we're going to come right now. I saw FBI on all these thoughts were, and they were like, just give us where you're at and we're gonna come right now. I saw FBI on their bests and stuff

and I was like, okay, this isn't anything that I could have done. Like, I know I haven't, you know what I mean? Like, that's crazy. He's like, Mandy, I'm not gonna sugarcoat anything. I'm just gonna tell you we're serving the search warrant because your husband's been looking at downloading child porn on the dark web for the past two years.

I just started screaming. I remember just dropped to my knees and started screaming. Nothing made sense. And yet, it's suddenly all made sense. Along hours in the basement, his complete withdrawal from the family. hours in the basement has complete withdrawal from the family. I was hard to hear that. I was so embarrassed. I was so ashamed. I was so frustrated. I felt so stupid.

I mean, life was already not like it was before, but everything changed from there. I still struggle with it. I gave him all of me. I gave him everything. I never trusted another man like that. And then to do that, to do that, like, that is to me the worst thing you could do. Those are children.

I can't even trust you with our child. Her house resembled a scene out of law and order, except it was her real life. An Olivia Benson wasn't making an appearance. As soon as we pulled down his street, the big huge RV, it's like better than an RV, just blocking the whole driveway. They're pulling out computers.

The two police officers who were there the week prior, supposedly looking for a drug dealer. The guy was just a big guy. They just were coming there to make sure Michael was there, so they didn't have to send in all these people and have not be there. there. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini golden doodle from Crocodoodles. And one bit late, the cover. Now I know what you're thinking, talking dogs? Well hold on to your tails because it gets better than that.

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And because their exclusive unlimited package is included with every purchase, you'll never pay touch-up fees or run out of sessions before you're officially hair-free. Don't spend another season shaving and waxing! Give Milan Laser Recall at 833-No-Raser to speak to a laser hair removal expert or check out NeverShaveAgain.com today to schedule your free treatment and consultation. check out NeverShaveAgain.com today to schedule your free treatment and consultation. That's NeverShaveAgain.com. Not only does Apple vacations make planning your vacation easy, but they make saving on

your vacation easy too. Find deals on all-inclusive vacations to top-rated resorts, and unlock exclusive sun and sand savings to your favorite destinations. This summer, you can book your Dominican Republic vacation for up to 60% off and receive additional instant savings of up to $500 at select resorts. For more information, visit www. Attorney, John Huber. Mr. Gibbs was part of an international ring. His stretch from Korea through the United States and beyond, using Bitcoin and anonymizing efforts to hide what they were doing on the dark web. And through hard work, detective work, cyber sleuthing, they were able to find Mr. Gibbs and then effect a search warrant on his home in Utah and confirmed that he was part of this conspiracy.

This website was one of the largest and most vile child sexual assault websites in the world. Among those arrested was a U.S. Border Patrol agent, former Homeland Security agent, and assistant high school principal. They look to every thing, every nook and conny of that house, and I had to just down there and watch them do it. The detective was asking me all sorts of questions too while I'm standing there. Was he downstairs a lot? Did he hide out a lot from you? Did there any other computers? Any other devices?

They took every device except my phone. They didn't even pass to see my phone or anything. They took everything else. Michael's arrest shattered Mandy. She simply could not bear it. Their small family that she loved so much went up in flames. Mandy and her daughter continued to live with Michael's mother, but Mandy struggled.

The first month I couldn't even eat because I was just sick. I was sick that that man could have done those things. I just completely lost myself. I don't even want to make excuses. I'm so ashamed of the way that I handled it. I could have been stronger. She turned to an old dependency to ease the pain. I was just so angry.

I wanted to be angry for a really long time. And alcohol just fueled that anger. I feel like it was good to go through that because I don't want to carry that anger around anymore. It's exhausting. I went to treatment. I was in treatment for a whole year. While Mandy sought help for substance abuse, Michael's case moved forward. Eventually, he was granted release on unsecured bond, Nobel. His release meant he would move back to his mother's house, and that Mandy

and her daughter needed to find somewhere else to live. A close friend, the father of Mandy's other daughter, offered them a place to stay, and they've become much closer through this awful experience. I was on Sophie's birthday, actually. It's like one in the morning, and he was trying to get me to let him see Sophie and I was like absolutely not. Like no. And all of a sudden Michael just walks in the back door. He's totally bastard and he's like you need to talk to me right now. Boba Boba. So his roommate picks up the phone calls and

calls the police. He had shoved me too because I wouldn't talk to him. And so at that point, at least come and he took him back to jail. He still got released again after that, but that was on House arrest. Michael tried to convince Mandy that the content he downloaded wasn't that bad. He never tells me the truth.

It's always... It wasn't even that much, or... I didn't even look at it, it wasn't even stuff that I looked at, what else? They weren't like little kid, little kids, it's like, you know, like younger girls. It was only a couple things in there. A lot of the other stuff was like adult stuff.

You know, it was because I was taking so much at or all and that made me just like really compulsive and wanted to download all this stuff. Mr. Gibbs had a hundred videos of some of the most deviant conduct that you could imagine and hopefully never have to imagine. Egregious, disgusting, violent videos of young girls who were bound and raped in front of the camera. And you have a hundred videos and 30 images of that type of conduct.

I tried so long to understand and to reason. I have to tell you, when I sat at John Huber's office, I saw the description of the images that Mandy's husband was looking at. They were in the sentencing memorandum. I got through too. I don't know if up until this point, I was existing in ignorance, but that I just couldn't conceive this awful reality.

We've been focusing so much on the families and their trauma, but now the violence was right in front of me. I couldn't help a cry. It really is as bad as John said. Other revelations in the document offered insight into Michael's defense of his behavior. During his evaluation, he claimed that his abuse of out-of-all had caused weird sexual behaviors,

and a weird impulse to hoard and collect. And this is a direct quote from the sentencing memorandum. Whatever drove the defendant's highly deviant acts, one thing is clear. The adderall didn't make him do it. After all, the defendant stopped taking Adderall eight months before law enforcement appeared at his doorstep, seized his personal cell phone, and found many sickening videos and images plainly kept by him. There were a few other details worth noting in the report.

The evaluator requested treatment for a methodic-tion. The finding was that there was a parapheral disorder, but it was not pedophilia but fetishistic disorder. And the last and most disturbing, some of the victims in his video collection were the same age as his toddler daughter. That would be a totally other nightmare that I don't want to live, you know. Michael's sentence was meaningful, 48 months in federal prison. Still, you could say he caught a break. The government wanted 60 months, and it could have gone as high as 84.

But Mandy last heard from him, he was in a halfway house preparing to read enter society. We've been talking a lot about justice, and how perpetrators of CSAM were prosecuted in sentence. I wanted to take a step back and meet some of the people on the ground who chased down the leads generated by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. The people who go on those raids, a lot of them are part of the internet crimes against children task force, or ICAC for short.

There's at least one in every state. I-CAC members include federal, state, and local law enforcement. Detective Rue, from the Riverton Police Department, he's a part of I-CAC. The task force investigates and develops responses to internet crimes against children. These individuals are unsung heroes.

Their purpose for existing is to keep kids safe. And as we learned, it's often a great personal cost. While in Utah, I wanted to visit with them. I'm Alan White. I'm the Utah Internet Crams Against Children Task Force Commander for the state of Utah. It's out of control. Just back at the commander's meeting,

all task forces are receiving so many cybertip referrals from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children Processing 26 million cybertips annually. In Utah, we're on track to see 4,000 of those tips. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is a private non-profit that receives most of the tips about child sexual abuse material. Some tips come from individuals, but most come from social media companies. The center-than-contacts local law enforcement, or the state's ICAC team, who follow up on those tips. The case agents determine is that going to be a knock-and-talk, or do we do a full search

warrant and take a taxable team up to the door and serve a search warrant. Some cases it's more educational. It may indicate that it's more of a teenager and we'll try to focus that interaction more on education. We were out doing a knock and talk a couple weeks ago and it ended up being a six-year-old little girl with a YouTube account and It ended up being a six-year-old little girl with a YouTube account. And there was a legal content on it. Google had flagged the account and shut it down. This six-year-old girl was taking images of herself and posting them online. And they were concerning enough to trip whatever algorithm is in place of Flag C-SAM.

Her parents had no idea what their daughter was doing. They have a phone, they have a camera, they have a video recorder, they have emails, it's a small computer, and we're giving these smart devices to our children with unfettered access, and they can manipulate those devices a lot better than some of the adults. That case was an exception, but an opportunity to educate her parents. Most of the tips IKAC receives are of people deliberately creating or downloading child sexual abuse imagery. Alan has 17 years in the field, and he's seen the damage CCM offenders cause. I started this work back in 2006, and I've had different thoughts throughout the years,

but as prevalent as it is, and the amount of manipulation these suspects due to their families, I've had suspects say in an interview, I wondered when you were gonna show up. Their families and the ones they love the most, they're collateral victims. And it destroys these families.

And we get to witness the beginning of that destruction when we make contact with these people. This type of work takes a toll. We're watching the video to write a description and that's the absolute worst part of the job. It's emotional. It's not easy. The day to day is tough. I'm thinking of images and videos in my mind that I've experienced and it's beyond

your wildest imagination. What motivates me, saving kids, the children we rescue is enough motivation that I'm still in the game. I want to be on the team that continues to protect children. There have been days when Alan literally left walked out and said, I'll be back tomorrow, but I can't do any more today. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini golden doodle from Crocodoodles. And one bit late, the cover. Now I know what you're thinking. Talking dogs?

Well, hold on to your tails because it gets better than that. I mean, not better, like, more impressive than a talking dog exactly. But if you apply now at Crocodotals.com You could adopt me or any other breed we offer with just a few easy steps. Whether you find a match immediately or By your time looking for just the right family member, we're worth the wait. We're all raised by reputable, responsible breeders and could be delivered anywhere in the United States. We're even certified by the better business Bureau and have over 500 positive reviews. But if you don't believe me, Jess asked Bentley. He's British, so he knows what he's talking about.

Cooper is quite right. Are we coming all different breeds and sizes in personalities? Plus, we have a three-year health guarantee. So, check us out at Crocododles.com and apply for the perfect addition to your family now. I shouldn't lie around via Weuda, with terribly popular. Crocododiles is making families whole. One pup at a time. Say goodbye to summer shaving and hello to Hair Free Skin all year long. Give laser hair removal a try this month with one free treatment at any of Milan Lasers 5 Raleigh Durham locations. Milan Lasers delivers smooth, hair-free skin with permanent results for all skin tones.

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and support so they could access mental behavioral health specialists who specialize also in kind of battlefield trauma. When you're dealing with the kind of stuff that my agents have to see, especially in the dark web, that's like the seventh ring of Dante's hell. Like it's the worst of the worst. You actually have to prove how evil you are by posting or showing and demonstrating certain acts that are so heinous and despicable that I don't even try to think about them when I go home. The women and men that do this work

they're everyday superheroes. They really are. Alan introduced us to some of them around the office. This is the ICAC team back here. Yeah. Are you done with Alan? Is he already disappointed? But we're doing a we're starting with a tour and then I'll disappoint him. So we're starting with the high point. We'll report back. We have five full-time agents, one agent that's a forensic examiner. This is our Hawaiian museum. If you want to take a peek in here, this is a Kolo. Hi. So, who are you? How are you? I'm at a Kolo De Los Santos.

His office was a little slice of Hawaiian heaven. Instead of a door, I walked through hanging beads into groovy music. Wow, look at your space. A lot of history in here. Come on in. Just take a gander, leave out a warm fire right there. A fire burned on the wall. It was on a TV monitor, but still it gave the space great atmosphere.

Just representing my culture and my family and stuff. I'm from year 50th state. It's pretty much it. That's not all of it. He is creating funcishway for his mind. I like it like this, just because the stuff that we deal with just every day, we have to escape everyone's in a while and I like to put up stuff that makes me feel comfortable.

Kohlew is a big guy, six foot five and he looks like a professional bodybuilder but he only cares about one thing. I have four kids, three grandkids and my motivation just for being here is that I want to step in and be that guy to you know when the predator opens the door and they're expecting a 13-year-old girl. It's a 300-pound pollination guy that they're looking at. Even the biggest and the strongest among them concern Alan. He keeps tabs on everyone, making sure that they are coping. Mental wellness, that's my biggest fear.

That's what keeps me up at night. I get emotional talking about it, but yeah. Throughout the day, throughout their work, we try to keep one foot in reality, regardless of what we're doing. This is Sete. He's one of the supervisors. I like Bill Comanda. Andrea?

Yeah. It's me, you guys. Nice to meet you. Sorry. I'm not proud of you. She works out. I feel like everyone works out here. That's my form of therapy.

It works for me. I do it every morning before I come in. Sete did a forensic work on Jason Litton's electronics. Yeah, we assisted with forensics running the phone and the computers. And yeah, that's what I did on that case. I remember that. Yeah, that was a bad guy. But he also goes out into the field. He talked about what can happen when they gather a family together and inform them that someone in the house has been downloading illegal content.

We can just about almost always figure out just by standing there. It's the person who doesn't want to make eye contact with you. They're sinking in the sofa slowly. Is it a mixture of mom, dad, or... Well, it's often males. There's been three females that I can think of off top of my head. It's rare.

It's a female. Can you tell us your name for the record? Yeah, so that's a out-of-life comments building. I was like, looking at it. I was like, I can't remember. This topic has a lot of darkness. It's shrouded in pain. But meeting the people at IKAC was like letting the light in.

They are people who really care about their community and are making it safer in whatever way they can. I've been keeping up with the status of Michael Gibbs' prison sentence. I was floored to find out that he was out early. So I was wondering how Mandy was navigating his re-entry and boundaries with her daughter. How are you? I am so good.

You feel good? I'm doing it. Yeah, from like what I lost, I'm doing a lot better. What's going on with your act? She is out and he is staying with his mom. He also has a new girlfriend who has three children. That's a lot, right? That's a lot. Yeah, so theramma, you know. Right. And it's weird and super uncomfortable. What's happening with custody? I have full custody of her.

He has no desire to have full custody of her. He doesn't want to be a full-time dad nor does he think that I'm a bad mom. So he got to see Sophie and now basically he's off my back. Michael asked Mandy for visitation. As soon as she had gotten out of prison and was in the halfway house, he was making it sound like as soon as he was out of the halfway house, he was done. Like, I served my time.

And for a mother, it's an agonizing situation. It's something that I battle with all of the time. Do I keep her from seeing him because of what he did? All these questions, like, what is right? And I wish that somebody could just tell me, Mandy, like, this is what you need to do, and this is what's right, and this is what's safe, and this is what's good. But nobody tells me that. Like, there's nobody that's going to sit down and talk to you about it, I feel. So I just do what I think is right and what I feel like is safe or so and what's safe

for me. It makes me extra free that you guys will have something to measure. Do you know what I mean? I know. I wish there was a man who I wish I could read and make sense of how I don't know. I don't know. The only way that I can treat it is a child. When he's around my child, he needs to be supervised like a child.

That's just that. And I feel safe when that's happening. I mean, I trust his family entirely. I just don't trust him. And then that also makes me start questioning other things. And if I think too much about it, then I'm like in full blown panic attack. So I try to just be like, OK, there's so many adults there.

We're fine. It's fine. She's, she's safe. She's happy. I know she's safe. But he doesn't get to have sleepovers with her, and he won't, and he doesn't try. Had he seen any change in his behavior? He's doing great.

Obviously, he has a new girlfriend and new life and I get to meet her, which is awesome. I'm super excited to meet her and have conversations with her. It sounds like their cast on, how does that actually make you feel? I'm the horrified for her. I've asked him, point blanks many times, like does she know? Like she has three girls. Does she know?

And he says that she does. Isn't he on the second fender lift now? Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if she knows. It's not coming from a source of jealousy or anger or like upset. I'm not trying to harm or hinder him from having his life.

But at the same time, I'm filling this obligation of some sort and like how much of it is my place, right? Because he's farming as fuck. Are you just taking it day by day or? Oh, girl, that's like literally all I can ever do. If you could say one thing to the Mandy that just found out this news that were what would you say to her. I would just hug her for a really long time. I would just tell her that I was gonna be okay okay. That no matter what, I was going to be okay.

Because that's all she just needed to hug. Yeah. This is just nothing you can do about any of it. You can't change any of it. And there's going to be so many hard days. So many. So many I didn't think I was going to be able to get through. But...

I hear you are. Yeah. Just about when we wrapped up this episode, I heard from Mandy. She had an update about visitation with her daughter. Last time we had talked, you had asked me if I had heard from the probation officer. And up to that point, I had not heard anything. So it was maybe a week after we had taught Blast. I got a message from Mike and he was like, hey, when Sophie was here last time,

she had hung out with Mike's mom. They had went back to the house and Mike was there with her. And Fran was there, which was, you know, like as long as there's another doll, I felt fine with that. Fran is her daughter's grandmother and Mike's mother. Mandy wants her daughter to spend time with Fran and trust her to supervise visits with Michael.

But I guess his probation officer had showed up during that point to like do a check-in or do a check-in. So she called me and she's like, he can't even be around Sophia until his therapist approves it. So I was just super frustrated because I'm like I'm trying to do anything right and like safe and I don't know if he knew and isn't telling me. I feel like he's not being honest. After I got off the phone with her, I called him right back. And I was like, you have to know this is part of your probation and stuff.

You have to know these things. It's insane to me that he doesn't know that he can't be around children. Well, that's the thing. It's asking her. I was like, did he know this? Or is this something that you guys just decided? And he was like, well, you know, there's just requirements. Like she would not give me

it. I'm like, yeah, I understand that. And she was like, yeah, that's works up with this therapist. So for a point of clarity, the probation officer told you that might can't even be around your daughter, not even to provide visit. No, not yet. Not until she's reached this point with his therapist. I'm not sure how often they meet. I know that that's part of his probation as well, but whenever she gets to the point where she feels that's copacetic. So I have to talk to her like that. I'd have to talk to them. I was just talking to the probation officer and she said she would keep me informed.

You can understand Mandy's frustration. She's trying to protect her daughter and she can't trust her ex-husband. It feels like another betrayal. And let's face it, spouses aren't viewed as victims by the law, but the weight of the world is on them to continue to protect their kids. I wanted to look into this for Mandy. What's the process to find out what your ex-husband, a convicted felon, can and can't do? So our team did some research and talked with the people who work on probation supervision in Utah. And it took some time.

If you're not a lawyer or aren't familiar with the court system, it's overwhelming, and it's hard to know where you can access all of this information. Here's what we learned. Anyone can obtain the parameters of an offender's release by requesting the sentencing document from the clerk of the court. The forms are online, but there is a charge for the copy. According to the U.S. Courts' Probation and Pre-Trial Services District of Utah, the defendant Michael Gibbs is restricted from contact with individuals who are under 18 years of age without adult supervision, and the probation office approves a supervisor.

The treatment provider, that is, whoever is providing mental health treatment, the therapy that Mandy referred to, must also approve the choice of a supervisor. At the time of me taping this podcast, no one had been approved as a supervisor for Michael to have visitation with a minor child. On the next episode of the trial, I just balled and broke down and told her

and she said, if you don't report this, I'm going to report this. And I was like, oh fuck, it's go time. Oh fuck, it's go time. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team email us at patrialpod at gmail.com That's patrial pod at gmail.com To report a case of child sexual exploitation call the National Center for missing and exploited children's cyber tip line at 1-800 the lost if you or someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to StopItNow.org.

And the United Kingdom, go to StopItNow.org.uk. These organizations can help. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. A trail is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with IHAR Podcasts.

The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, Written and Produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Thederman, Associate Producer, Kristen Melcuri, our I Heart team's Allie Perry and Jessica Crintech, special thanks to our talent Ashley Litten, Alan White and the Utah I-Cach Task Force,

and special thanks to Mandy Hale and production assistant Tessa Shields, audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, course, and special thanks to Mandy Hale and production assistant Tessa Shields. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alecchio, a trails theme composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by my music, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Cooper and I'm a mini-golden doodle from Crocodoodles. Now I know what you're thinking.

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