Betrayal - Solace | Karoline's Story

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Karoline unpacks her healing journey with Kristin Snowden, an expert in betrayal trauma recovery.   For resources on betrayal trauma and more from Kristin Snowden, visit kristinsnowden.com. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod.    To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.     You can listen to new episodes of Betrayal Season 4 completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on. And the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement. The ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything but gay.

but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer. the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu. It's a new year.

And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that? am I just depressed. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, before we get into the episode, a quick note, we're looking for new stories of

betrayal for our weekly betrayal series, which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story, now is a great time to reach out. Email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. It is not to your detriment that you have loved and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was so invested in keeping you out of his whole double life that he was living. And used every tactic in the world to keep you blind to that.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is between you. Season 4, Episode 8, Salas. Caroline Berega has been dealing with the fallout of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable. At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour, the next 24 hours, being able to get yourself to work or show up for your kids. Now Caroline is reaching the point where she can start to truly process and hear. heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal trauma and infidelity. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California and a certified life

coach. My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction or infidelity. And that's either chemical addictions or process addictions such as sex, porn, love addiction. Addiction is a loaded term, and one we want to use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the brain's reward system.

The DSM-5, the official manual clinicians used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process addiction. That's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria, the label can be misunderstood, misused, or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught. You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab. Low self-esteem, self-hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction,

all contributed to my behavior and actions. Sain people would not do what I did, but I literally was not in my right mind. We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as an addict, You'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both chemical

addictions and sexual acting out behaviors. But in the last 10 years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners. She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources for those navigating relationship crises. I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and education that they deserve that I think is going to help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas. When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins with this metaphor. Something that we do all day, every day is we drive. And what we do is we're essentially taking for

granted that everybody else around us is going to follow the rules of the road. And that is what we're doing when we're in these long-term relationships with our partners. We have very direct spoken rules, but also unspoken rules that we're going to give each other the benefit of the doubt. We're going to do our best to do no harm. We're going to follow the rules and move along in the correct way together. And then all of a sudden, when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying, sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you every day to just go do the basic things like just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop your kids off.

But oh, by the way, no one's going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you make it there okay. Suddenly, the drive, the simple drive that you took for granted every single day becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul-sucking experience. because you don't know what's coming at you. And that is like the best metaphor I have to help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through

from the minute they find out what their partner's done and onward. Kristen often works with people like Caroline, people who've been left to pick up the pieces in the wake of their partner's betrayal. She's my quintessential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her, if not thousands. Kristen met with Caroline several times over the course of this season.

With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge in the city she calls home. All she sees are places where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize her husband's affairs. There's really only one way to drive to our local airport, and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I can do is think about, this is where he did this at, this is how many people did he meet in this area? How many times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive

in me. How do you feel in your body when you're driving to the airport and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces? What does it feel like? It could be the coldest morning in Colorado and I will start sweating when I reach that area of town. I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need to crack the window and the nausea starts. And my brain just starts churning. This is the area where he did this. How many times did he meet someone?

It will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and replaying it and replaying it even after I park when I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in. it just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that is so aggravating is that I have no control over it. I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route. I think that I am a strong female, but I will tell you that if you want to test someone's ability to stay strong, go through this and have to live it every day.

Right. That's why I always think it's interesting, but there's really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes betrayal as a form of trauma. PTSD doesn't really fall in that because, you know, it has to be a life-threatening event. And people don't consider these things to be life-threatening. But, I mean, I could imagine you feel like you have PTSD symptoms. I know I do. And I think it's evidenced by the fact that my kids and I say, unless it was an absolute life-threatening event, we will never call law enforcement. I'm sorry.

It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to people who've been betrayed to by the religious organizations, like abused by the people in charge and then shunned and ignored and never validated or supported by their community. you know, I pride myself in being someone who can compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back in my head high, constantly running into his colleagues. What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are experiencing when they see you? When life blew up, initially to me and my kids, Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to. I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually.

Like he pointed the finger at me. And this is also the narrative that he started telling all of his employment. They're thinking to themselves, we know what Joel did. We've been told that you're the reason why this happened. He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't getting it at home. He needed to go find it around the community. This is all your fault. You caused him to lose his job.

In one of his disciplinary write-ups, it actually says Joel discussed that he was having problems with his wife at home. It's like everyone heard this narrative but me. I didn't know this. In my world, we were living this really blessed utopian life. I didn't know that this was being put on blast about me. Yeah. What is that like on top of the shame that you just generally experience from being betrayed by your intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole double life? What is that like to have this community where they're blaming you or using your apparent marital life to justify his behavior?

It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos in my life. life. And to have to have this pretend face and this very low affect to not show emotion was miserable. And it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue to try to have this pretend normal at work. It doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community events where I see police officers who stare at me and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in a car accident, her junior year shortly after he blew up our lives. About a month and a week later, she was teaboned and hit by a driver. And when I went out to the scene to see her, thank God she was okay. But even in that moment, cops were pulling up to the scene. And I could hear them. They didn't even care that we

were there what we had just gone through. I could hear them. Oh my God, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh my God, can you believe that? He's in rehab right now. I could hear them. And like your moment of raw vulnerability. Yes, I am terrified for my daughter. I am terrified seeing how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in that moment, it's thrown in my face. It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma has been being lied to. I can imagine it being just even more frustrating to say the least, that you continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling you that you're to blame. There's such a healing and release of trauma that happens when a community can share invalidating that what happened was not okay and that was scary

and that rocked our world. And I just, I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing that you live in a community where there's just a lack of empathy. for what you and the kids have gone through. I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I think it is the belief of a false narrative. What do you tell yourself about why they can kind of be so non-emopathic, why they're so invested in holding on to Joel's story?

Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self-loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel. I mean, I initially carried this guilt when he looked at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough. You were paying more attention to the kids than you did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me. And in the moments of it, I doubted myself.

I thought, oh, my God, were we having sex enough? Did I show you that I loved you? Did I pay more attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until I know the extent of what he did. When it became reality, I was. able to let go some of that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he was friendly and got along with people and he supported his officers and all of these things. My husband lived a double life. And in my gut, I believe that

he is an extremely intelligent man. And I do think that he knew as things were progressing, he was about ready to be caught, and he needed to start shifting the blame or provide excuses. And people believe him. When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,

that you can be blindsided by someone you trust and love and they can hurt you the most, I think that hits too close to home for most people. So they have to package it up in a way that makes you do. different than them. You know, it's scary to think that my partner can just go out, have a bunch of sex with somebody else, lie, sneak around, keep doing it.

If I really sat with the vulnerability of that, it would just lock me up. Like, the powerless of that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I have to make your story different so I can go back and carry on in my life. So the story has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well, I give my partner enough sex and that just others her in a way

where it allows me to just not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It makes sense. Like a lot of sense. It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner. No one blames the wife or the spouse or a spouse

or a partner for someone's heroin addiction or for someone's gambling addiction. There's just something about the fact that in people's brains, they want to make it a relational problem when it is not a relational problem. What I always say is it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens that will, as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down,

stop them from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we talking about like, well, did you have sex with them enough? Were you nagging? I mean, it does nothing but harm. New Year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense. of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money,

we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection.

We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience,

helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year, you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden,

a licensed therapist and life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma. The other night, I was at a very popular, brewery. And I walk in and I'm standing in line and I hear Caroline and I turn and I look and it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble, he turned to this person and he goes over, opens his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one of these where I just kept my arm straight down. You know, like I don't want you to physically touch me. Like you had a physiological response to him.

Yes. We don't need to have physical contact. I do not want to hug you. you, we are not friends. I know what you have said about me. You know, I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff. And he was like, how are you? And I just stopped him. And I said, you know what? I know all of the horrible things you have said about me and the blame you have placed on me. There's no need for us to talk. And he looked at me and he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay. But for the first time and a long time, it felt empowering to not take it. it to not engage in it. What do you think the difference was?

Why now? I think the difference at this point is that I know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt like this could never happen to anyone else. And this almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment. You know, that was one of the things that drew me in with the podcast as hearing, my God, like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I feel like in my past life, I was this pretty confident person. But since my ex-husband's secret life had been revealed to me,

I mean, it just really put a weight of constant insecurity on me, just constant. And it's been a really long time since I have been able to keep my head up, like a really long time. It's common. It's common for us to feel less confident and standing in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where you were saying, look, you're in a different location. Where are you? No, you're crazy. No, I don't know. What's wrong with you? So you were in a constant environment with him where he was questioning your reality. and then after he left, you were living in this world where everyone was kind of validating his narrative

and not extending grace and empathy towards you in a very, very painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty of betrayal.

Yes, spot on. I always say, like, you've been traumatized, and now you're responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances, right? That you now have a traumatized body. You're going to have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing. Like, is this a red flag or is this, like, a trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me? And so it's just really important.

important to have a couple people in your community where you can bounce this off of and validate. Am I crazy? I guess it's just the most benign things. You find yourself questioning. That is one of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do it on your own. No. And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right?

People come to me because their lives have been devastated and turned upside down because they have opened their heart and their life to a person. And they have just been lied to you and their whole lives destroy, their families destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes is to say, well, and now you need to go to a group. And most understandably so, they say, hell no. Like, I've exposed myself enough. I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops. But eventually she decided to give them a shot.

And she joined a group Kristen Runs for betrayed partners. One of the big pieces of why I fell in that category was because it's hard to believe there are evil humans out there that would do the same thing to other innocent people. And then being in that group, hearing, oh, my God, this happened to all of you. Yeah. And replace my name with your name and our stories are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked a very similar path. You feel so alone, though, at the beginning when it happens. Like, this could not happen to anyone else, especially when you're

surrounded with friends and family members who assimedly are living these very healthy marriages and healthy relationships. And like you're just on this little island by yourself that no one else would really understand. Yeah. And what has it been like to be in a group where you're around several women who are betrayed partners of sex addicts?

And I mean, what's that been like to hear all those stories? There's been, I mean, a great sense of camaraderie, definitely some validation. And I always think it's very interesting. One of the myths about betrayal trauma is we think that the person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and lied to is this passive person that just kind of gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely clear about what they want, what they need.

And it just shows the manipulation power that their addict partners use. A hundred percent accurate. You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had these great children, and then just got sideswived and blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea. And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact, living their lives, trying to be the best parents they can be, be the best partners that they can be.

be the best partners that they can be, and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far off their radar, that is why they are kind of victimized over such a long period of time. That is why they are often so primed to let their partners' lies

kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes. And I'm just going to say it, You're a beautiful woman. You're well-spoken. You're educated. You have this career. You have these kids.

And it just starts ticking stories off of people's list. Like, they can't write the story that you were unattractive or you were crazy or you were money-hungry. I mean, because you're just, you're none of those things. You're a high-functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that happened to marry an unhealthy person. and you are still suffering the consequences. Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, I know. It is not to your detriment that you have loved and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested in keeping. keeping you out of his whole double life that he was living and used every tactic in the world to keep you blind to that. I heard from multiple family members and then some of his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the divorce as a tool to garner sympathy.

His comment to people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me. You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me through getting the therapy I needed. You know, she just wanted to run right away. That was one of the things that he had told people. And it had been used against me of, well, if you really loved him, you would have stuck it out with him. Well, and better yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned with the fact that there are consequences to every action is understanding that, like, these are the typical consequences that come with that behavior. I made bad choices and I lied and I snuck around and I broke my vows and I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafe and it's heartbreaking and horrible and I wish that wasn't the

case. I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean those are words of someone who's moving through recovery. His words are more reflective of somebody who's just always constantly building that wall of entitlement. I work so hard I'm entitled to go do this. She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to go do this. I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled to go do this. It's my birthday. I'm entitled to go to do this.

I had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to go do this. Those are dangerous, dangerous people. That is not a sign of someone who is, as we say in the 12-step world, who's humbled and surrendered. It's a sign of someone who is always setting up justification, rationale, and entitlement to go out and do what they want to do. Because I get to. and they are not thinking about the family system. They are not thinking about their values and goals.

They're not definitely not thinking about the true consequences to their behaviors. And those were all things required for someone to live in recovery. It was funny because you actually said this to me last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck of like, did I give it at my all? Should I have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to stay with him. in sickness and in health.

As a reminder, Caroline made the decision to leave the marriage after she got a call from a case manager at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Caroline that Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously. And when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided their marriage was irreparable. And that's why I tried to separate our lives as. as quick as I could.

Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were trying to repair their marriages. I took pause for a second of seeing these women really try and then saying, you know, I think I'm to the point now where I can walk away

because I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I had a moment of, I should have exhausted all efforts. Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two of them did say it. I wish I would have left right away. And like after we hung up, I just, I don't know,

I just like cried and cried and cried just because it was validating. There's so many things that just you replay in your head. Like, did I? Should I? Could I? even though I know I did the right thing. But hearing someone say, I wish I did that. It just felt validating. And like we said, in any given group, there's always a story in your head that should I have tried harder?

Should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah, for sure. You know, having hope that they'll change. and then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do work with couples and addicts in recovery

who do pivot and change. So I always say it's okay to leave and it's okay to stay. But especially the betrayed partners who don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what really happens. a full understanding of why they did what they did, with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work to understand their poor coping skills and what led them to do these behaviors

and what was really going on in their head. It is so hard for betrayed partners to move through and heal without that closure. New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm just, Joel, we are from the how to money podcast. And every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there.

If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyalkiwali. And I'm Hurricane DeVolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us, affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection.

We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all?

To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience, helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year, you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers.

But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about healing after betrayal.

One of the things Caroline addressed in her sessions was how to have help. healthy relationships going forward. Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle, the ones who know the full story. But one of the things about being in that circle is that they've seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward, attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy. And they've seen me go from very, very scared to start dating to I'm going to rip the Band-Aid off and go on my first date.

Or I think I'll hang out with this person for a little bit. This person is not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want around me. And I will make excuses very quick to not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way. And then there's been times where I have thought I just am starting to feel too close. and I'd rather run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time, maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone who is just,

if you just saw this person, my joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean, this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing has done good service for the community and to his country. And there are times where I have been getting ready to hang out with him. And I will literally be putting on my makeup and think to myself, you should run tonight. Tonight's the night. You should just go to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.

And I can't really tell you why. It's just this feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run. nothing has gone wrong. There's been no red flag. There's nothing except this internal voice in me that says, you're starting to let your guard down, protect yourself, go, go now. And, you know, this separate club that I do,

I took a chance and invited him to separate club. He walked in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for being late, something came up with his kids. He was just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No, an hour late, not even close. Nothing like that. But in that moment, I thought, there it is.

There's your reason. Do it, do it now. Just ridiculous. And one of my friends in Supper Club actually said, do not let this be this reason that you let something good go. Don't do it. So I know people see it. and I know it, but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.

Well, honestly, because once you've had your instincts and intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and being told, oh, it's night outside when the sun is beaming in your eyes, it's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass of what's safe and what's not safe. when we have these wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because, understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to push them away because we're sitting there, getting ready for the date, we should be happy. We tell ourselves what we should be, right? This is a good person. It's great that we're dating. As you said, all the moms of the world would love him. So we instinctively want to push out that scared part that's screaming out.

But you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive, which is go into that part and learn more. And it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared part will tell you. Yeah. I think that's a really good challenge. And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we view it as like a scared child or even a scared teenager. and you listen to it like a mom because you're not judging it. You're not saying, oh, what's wrong with you? This guy's great.

Like, stop it. Shut up. Instead, you can say like, what's scary? All right, how can I help you feel safe? What do we know now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get through this? And then you and I talked about this before, but it's also all about the repair attempt.

that happens once you bring this to the person you're dating. You now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness does not just mean being late to me. There's this amazing repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship where this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry this made you feel scared or upset. I'm sorry this triggered a history. But let me help you feel safer this time. So it's interesting that you bring that last part up

because I wanted to be fair and I actually told him about the podcast. And so telling him about the podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history. Okay. admit that I not only told him to be fair, but I also told him because there was this piece of me that was like, so you're going to hear this and you're going to see just the insanity that I've had to experience, let me see if I can get you to run. And his response was, I think you're really brave. Wow. And how healing was that sentence? It was just like, oh my God.

Oh my God. Like, thank you. It had been a really long time to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends. My friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity and the wheel of insanity that I was

locked into and what I was going through. But for him to have taken pause, listen to me, asked relevant clarifying questions, and then ended it with, I think you're really brave. it took this weight off of me and to have just this pause for weight,

there is some humanity in this. That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own, because these are severe attachment wounds. These are wounds that came due to us, others breaking your heart and betraying you. So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to occur in a relationship setting.

And as you mentioned, good friends, family, but your brain has to find new evidence that your ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries and keeping other safe people around you for a checks and balance system. But these are the rule. He was the exception. These are the rule. And you can still feel safe and vulnerable with these people. It's tough though. That's scary. Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for a second. What is different? You know, update those scared parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?

Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married and I'm not locked into this need to believe or feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone that I am my own authority. I can make my own decisions on this and don't need to believe anyone for anything. Yeah. I always say I never let someone tell me what my reality and my experience is. You never get to tell me that. And even if I am inaccurate with like thinking that you're

somewhere or that you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line is my experiences, I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling safe in this relationship. I'm experiencing incongruencies that are making me want to pull away, I don't feel respected, I don't feel like you're hearing me. And those are all important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to feel safe with other people. And so when I don't, it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, okay, what is happening that's making me not feel safe? A partner who loves you, who considers you a partner, because I should both be invested in helping the other person, and feel safe, be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the way you approach issues

that aren't working. But from the parts work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're not bad. But you have to dive deeper into that part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And then the other piece is to let them know this is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I was deprived of all the information I needed to keep myself safe.

I didn't even know what I didn't even know. But look how much more I know now. Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea. This means so much to me. The fact that I have this clarity and insight now, I just, I can't thank you enough. A quick note before we end. Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and parts work,

which are just two approaches to deal in. with trauma responses. Kristen recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence-based trauma therapy practices, such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brain spotting, and internal family systems work.

It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic care to work with a licensed professional. If you want more from Kristen, go to her website, Kristen Snowden.com. We've linked it in the show notes. On the next episode of betrayal, we discuss how grief

is a marathon. Well, this is the first year that we have actually gotten to speak. My brother just crossed the finish line. Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4.

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at Gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram

at Betrayal Pod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know

you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I-Hard Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden.

Also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Federman. Our associate producer is Kristen Mulcuri. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinsk. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins. Special thanks to voice actor John Belomo. And special thanks to Caroline and her family.

Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mide Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress.

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