Betrayal - Thank You For Your Time | Jenifer's Story

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

After more than two years of not speaking and four years since seeing one another, Jenifer and Spencer finally speak. Jenifer re-asks him questions hoping time and reflection will provide clarity. Andrea and Jenifer explore how Jen transformed over the time Betrayal was produced and the impact the series has had on some members of the audience. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail].  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on. And the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name.

Part of the way through the Valley of Despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward. Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian, and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story.

John has never been anything that gay. but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening. Step charges and consent to this recording call, press one. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm making it. It's been so long since he's so. Oh, gosh. It's been forever.

That was Spencer Heron, the real Spencer Heron, on the phone from present. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is betrayal. Episode 8. Thank you for your time. Spencer was apprehensive about going on the record with Jennifer, citing concern for his family and publicity. However, he did agree to speak with Jennifer, and they spoke on a recorded line. They spoke for nearly an hour after not having talked to each other for more than two years. This was an important conversation for Jen, for her personally, but also to hear how he views the situation four years later.

And there was some curiosity. Has his incarceration changed his perspective? And what does he plan to do when he's released? Here are excerpts from their call. I just wanted to see if you'd be willing to answer some questions. Well, it's the realization, okay, since I know you're going to, obviously you're going through with it. When he says it, he is referring to this project, the podcast, what you're listening to right now. The realization of it not being over for me.

And it's hard enough trying to imagine the difficulties I'm going to face anyway. and then this seems just like another layer of it. And that freaks me out. Essentially, Spencer is concerned that making more people aware of his story will make post-prison life more difficult for him. But I can't obviously keep you from doing what you need to do to feel better for yourself. Yeah.

I know I keep getting back to this, but I'm just so curious, is to, like, what you think about that life you were, living. The main thing I can say is that it had gotten so out of control that it was, I don't want to say, living a life of its own, because obviously I was in control of it, but it had taken on a dominance in my life that I didn't see coming. Even with the warnings that I had, it obviously wasn't enough to stop everything. Warnings. Like Jennifer's friend's husband calling him. Spencer knew he could tell Jen at any time.

Right, but you say didn't he coming, but like it was happening before we got married. Yeah. It was happening all those years before we got married. So knowing that you were like this, why get married? Well, that's the part that's going to be difficult for you to understand or believe. I didn't intend it to keep going. You never stopped. So at what point did you intend for it not to continue? Oh, from the day that we got back together.

Okay, but knowing it was continuing and that you didn't stop, why did you get married? The intentions are always on the positive side, but my actions would win over those intentions. One of the main things I can explain is the ease of the way I found myself

in those situations. I'm trying to use an analogy. If you've been to three different grocery stores, even though you don't want to go shop there anymore, it's easier to go to those stores, you've already been to those stores. You're not looking for

another store to go to. It's just that store is still open. What I'm just trying to say is that, you know, once you had been fooling around for so long, it's not like you've got to figure out how am I going to fool around? I'm not sure how all those women would feel about the grocery store analogy. A few years earlier in his letters, like the ones we heard in episode 7, Spencer seemed to deny culpability by saying women just made themselves available to him. Had time changed the story?

In one of the letters that you wrote me, you said that you never saw after it. Do you still feel that way? Well, yes. I have to answer this in two ways. Yes, meaning that I was never on a long path that I chose to seek it out. It's just an opportunity would present itself. And then before I knew it, I was pursuing it.

It's probably not an answer that makes much sense. Yeah, it doesn't. Just because I have seen so much correspondence that I do feel like you sought after it. Sought after might include, come by the wine bar. I'm single for the next few days. I understand that. I would never argue that that's how you saw it. And I'm sure that no matter how much we talk, there's going to be some things that will make sense.

They don't make sense to me either. And I was the one involved in. as much as I want to make it better, I know there's going to be a lot of things that aren't. No, no, no, no, no. Nothing will ever make it better. Not after everything I've read and seen. And the amount, I'll never understand it.

I am baffled at how you may. managed so many different people at the same time. Like a year, two years, three year long affairs, multiple at a time when you look back, do you think you might have a problem? And I'm not being facetious. Well, my opinion doesn't matter until I get out there. You can say if you don't think you have a problem in alcohol,

if you never have alcohol around you. I'm dealing with guys who've been in for decades to the guys that just come in a year. You know, most of the fact in the prison system are females. And they're not trying to win it. And I don't need to be mean. I mean I need to paint a picture for you, right? And these guys will go crazy.

Guys in the county jail, we're going crazy and masturbating publicly. masturbating. That still happens in here. Now that's a problem. Maybe it's a different problem, but it's definitely what I don't have. Oh, I don't, yeah,

I don't care about that. The last time we talked, I think you felt as if you were fine and cured and it has gone away. I still feel that way, but that's only how I feel. I don't know.

No one knows what anything is going to be tomorrow. But the thing is, I guess you and I think of your situation differently, because I look at what you were doing our entire marriage from before and the entire, every single day of our marriage. You look me in the eye and lied to me. There are probably days, and I hope to God not. not many, where you ended up having to sleep with me and another woman on the same day. You brought women into our home.

Your sense of betrayal is not a sense at all. It is a very real thing. And I would expect you to deal with it no differently. Any sane person would deal with it the way you're dealing with it, which is to be dumbfounded into the angry. and everything else that you felt. I'm never going to put words in your mouth. There are emotions in your personality.

But all those things make sense. I couldn't skirt around that if I wanted to. Why would I want to? But do you not see an issue that might need some work? You got to the point where you were breaking the law, not to mention the discussion. the disgustingness of it. Do you ever think about the victim?

Yeah, of course. I'm sure that's why I'm still here. No immediate expression of remorse. Rather, he thinks of the victim's impact on his parole. I'm not toot my own horn. I just look at the facts. Anybody makes parole as somebody like me.

I just don't know what to say. I mean, I guess good for her? Yeah. I said here that have been back three, four, five, six, times and they get out on parole every time. And I'm not bitter about that. I don't even think about the TC anymore. I don't think about parole anymore.

I do the next thing. I'm supposed to do that hour. I do the next right thing every hour and the next thing after that. And then I go sleep and I can do it all over again. Are you surprised that she would do that? I'm surprised at the system more than I'm surprised to her. I'm surprised that the system gives false hope. and tells you something's going to happen and then takes it back.

That's what I say. Yeah, but they couldn't know that she was going to come forward. Well, we don't know. We just, we're assuming. And that's a really good assumption. I've got $100 on it. Actually, we do know. In an earlier episode, we learned that the victim wrote

and delivered a letter to the parole board herself. So, no, I'm not surprised. I'm sure it was her family more than it was her. Why do you think that? She's an adult, though. That doesn't matter. That's all just. you know, interesting drama for the story.

What matters is that she is hopefully moving on, and as much as I wish I could take it back, I can't take it back. So all I can do is hope, play for everybody involved to be okay and move on. Yeah, it's taking a long, long time. New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than now. I am Matt. And I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast. And every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be

the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane de Bolo. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means It's being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.

You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our lives. overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were. It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow. It means giving

ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help. I'm Mike Dolorotcha, host of Sacred Lessons. This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat. Here, we slow down, we listen, we learn how vulnerability becomes strength and how healing happens in community, not in isolation. If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, sacred lessons is your companion on your healing journey.

Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rocha on America's number one podcast network, IHeart. Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike Delo Rocha and start listening on the free IHeart radio app today. Jen was curious about the letter, so she put in a call to the victim and asked if she would be willing to share it with the podcast. Do you remember when he was first supposed to be polled? It was last year. It was, I think, either around September or October. Yeah, of 21, right?

Yeah. So when you found this out, you decided to write this letter. Do you mind reading it? Yeah, and I was thinking of actually just saying my first name, only because this podcast has gotten so much attention. And I thought maybe this could be an example for other people or kids to not be afraid. What you did was so brave and incredible. It's obviously up to you.

I just thought it's one thing to say, oh, the victim, right? It's so hard for me. And you know I'm so protective of you and your identity. but like calling you the victim, you know, it's just, I get it, obviously. Yeah. You know, you're just so much more than that to me. Thank you. So I wrote, to whom it may concern.

First, I would like to say that I don't know what to say other than I am still in my process of healing from what Spencer Heron did to me, starting from when I was 15 up until the very early stage. of my adult life. At first, when I received the letter with news of him being up for parole, I didn't want to respond or say anything because all I would like to do is move on with my life. However, I realized then that is exactly what he would want. It would have been a disservice to myself and all the young girls out there had I not come forward in the first place. And even now, years later. I am responding to this because I believe he should not be granted parole. People like Spencer Heron who pray on the innocence and trust of adolescents do not wake up one day

and decide to sexually assault these children. People like him take the time to select their victims and begin the grooming process just as he did with me. This takes strategy, time, and effort on their part. I wasn't the first victim and I will not be the last if he is released. predators such as Spencer Heron cannot control their perversions nor are they willing to this ends up hurting not only the victims but their families as well just like he did to mine I know a sight of him that not many do and I still live with those images in my mind every day he is cool calculated manipulative deceitful and violent he has no regard for who he hurts, and I am afraid that there will be more victims if granted parole.

I'm also afraid for myself. I hope this letter will be taken into consideration. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Sincerely, Rachel. Such a powerful letter to the parole board. And on this podcast, bravely putting her anonymity behind her, claiming her strength because she's more than a victim. She's Rachel.

Whether he would get paroled or not, Spencer would eventually be released. Jen wanted to know, was he prepared? If you want to be successful, don't you think you should think about getting some help? I am, but I can't say that I'm going to until I know what I'm going to be up against when I get out there. Do you guys have therapy and stuff in prison? Nothing even close to him. anything you might even possibly imagine. No.

Well, that's why I was wondering, like, what your plan is for after you get out. My first plan, and only real plan, is to make sure I'm successful on probation or parole. Because if not, I'll end it right back here. So, since we last spoke, like, have you thought more about what kind of life you had been leading? Of course. I mean, that's what you do when you have all this time in here. You can reflect on everything, and then hopefully if you're a person that wants to change, then you figure out how to do it.

How do you change it to the best of your ability? Really, Spence? Yeah, maybe that's the part that you don't understand because you've never been to prison. But let me tell you, no sane person ever. I've earned my time. I've done it. well, I haven't finished it, but I will have done it. And to your point about how I'm going to deal with things,

I'm going to look at somebody square in the eye and go, I've done what I was told I had to do. And if you aren't cool with that, then we just won't have to lead on to be cool. And I know that's going to be the majority of my, I want to say the majority of my past contacts, I'm going to use the word friends. He had done what he was told he had to do,

a clean slate. That's what he was after. However, he'll still serve 15 years probation and will be registered as a sex offender. I mean, almost everyone. As you know, the people who have come out to support me outside of one or two people have been all surprised. So I've seen the miracle and how God has used people to get me through this. I've witnessed it. I've experienced it. I've experienced it. And I know it's going to be the same on the out there. I don't have to have as many friends as I had before. What I'm saying is I understand, it will always understand, why people are going to forever pull back. They're going to probably pull back fence because of what you did. I'm just, I'm making the point that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

It's the betrayal that hurts sometimes more than the action. I'm not opposed to getting help. I'm not opposed to any of that kind of stuff. I'm not saying I don't need it. What I'm saying is I have to take one thing at a time, and the first thing you have to take control of it's making sure I'll ever get in this trouble with you. But how do you do that? You stay under the radar.

You couldn't stay under the radar before. You got lucky that you got away with it for so long. I know you're being facetious when you say that. What do you mean? Well, I wasn't lucky you got away with it. I was unlucky that I was getting away with it. It'd been better for it to all gone to shit the first time. That's the truth.

Was he saying that if he had just gotten caught having a consensual affair that he wouldn't have committed sexual assault on a teenager? You have one minute left. The call ended. It was polite. Kurt. Thank you. Thank you for your time.

Bye. New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt. And I'm Joel. We are from the how to money podcast. And every week, we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen.

Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?

We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and to start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

Listen on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every January, we're encouraged to start over. But what if this year is about slowing down and learning how to understand ourselves more deeply? What if this year is about giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help? I'm Mike Delarocha, host. of sacred lessons. This is a podcast for men navigating stress, emotional health, fatherhood, identity, and the unspoken pressures were taught to carry alone. We talk honestly about mental

health, about healing generational wounds, and about learning how to show up with more presence and care. If you want a healthier relationship with yourself and the people you love, then Sacred Lessons is the podcast for you. Listen to Sacred Lessons. Listen to Sacred Lessons. with Mike Dolorotcha on America's number one podcast network, IHeart. Follow sacred lessons with Mike DeLaurocha and start listening on the free IHeart radio app today. So let me get this straight. You hadn't talked to him. You hadn't heard his voice in, what was it, two years?

Yeah. When he got convicted January 2019, I cut off all communication with him. I was done, you know. He was sent to prison and I was done. I didn't feel like I needed to talk to him anymore. It wasn't doing me any good. And then when we started this podcast, you know, I wanted to talk with him. Were you nervous about talking with him?

Like, what were you feeling when you had to answer that phone call? Because he had to call you. Well, I see the call coming in and it says Wilcox State Prison and my stomach just turns. And I get so nervous. And part of it was I knew when I answered. that he was going to be all happy and excited to hear from me and everything. And that just, it doesn't sit well with me. Like, does he not understand?

Yeah. He's just, I guess it's denial. Do you recognize the person on the phone on the other side? Yes, definitely. He sounds the same, talks the same, tries to spin everything into a positive, almost. And the thing is, I'm sure you notice this. He avoids answering any questions. And how did you feel after the call? I got off the phone with him and realized that I never need to speak to him again. Wow. I just feel like I can wash my hands of it, partly because I'm never

going to get the answers. He's not capable. And it doesn't matter. It's not my problem. It's his problem. I feel like I have put the final piece in a box that I can like pack up, tape up, and put away in the attic. We haven't even talked about this yet, but you reached out about an update on his parole. Well, I have a friend that has been so amazing the last four years at always searching to see if dates have changed for parole or whatever. And so I woke up one morning to a text just the other day that said he's getting released June 2022. So within the next three weeks, he's going to be out. Oh, he could be out tomorrow. Right. Andrea, do you remember last summer when we talked on the phone and I was telling you about how Spence was supposed to get paroled like in October.

You were in the car like historically cried. Yes. And I was really scared. So then when the parole got revoked because the victim wrote the letter, you know, I thought he was going to be in there until June 223. How does June 2022 differ from June 2020? 2021. I think I've just done a lot more work on understanding this mess that I was in and this relationship. And I've healed a lot. And I have to say the first time that we were in the studio together, I was really angry. I mean, it was still raw. And I was angry at the women.

and you looked at me and you said, Jennifer, you're really angry at these women. And I think you need to take a look at that. I was pissed. I was like, what is she talking about? But I thank you for that because I got there and you seeing that from the beginning And then seeing it when I was able to talk with some of these women and the compassion that was there, I just, I felt it.

Yeah, and I said, like, I will not do this project with you if it's coming from a place of anger. It needs to be coming from a place of curiosity and trying to reclaim your life. And you made a commitment to me that day that you would get there. I just, I hadn't learned it at that point. I was still researching and there was so much to read. And then the same story over and over and over and over again with so many different women. I just had to learn. So thanks for sticking it out with me.

Absolutely. Thanks for sticking it out with me. Heck yeah. I want to play you something from episode three. When you were talking to Rachel, you said something really important. and she said something similar. I just hope that this will help someone out there. I just want this to help someone who's going through the same pain

that you went through and that I went through. That's all. I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff, if it can help one other person be brave, I just know that helping other victims, you know, of betrayal, trauma, grooming, Abuse of Power, it was a big part of embarking on this project for you, for Rachel, for me, and our other producers.

And I think that's why she told her story and felt comfortable coming to you. So I hope it's okay, but I wanted to spend some time to read you some of the letters that we've received from our audience, if that's okay. Sure. Listening to Jennifer's story helped me realize more about an experience I have. had when I was in high school. I had still not fully made the connection between my experience and being a victim of grooming as a teenager. Putting those missing pieces together has helped me process and untangle some things and release shame I didn't realize was still there. Jennifer,

thank you for being courageous and sharing your story. Oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. Well, I am crying. Here's another one. In 2008, I was 22 years old. and my 55-year-old boss did many of these exact same things. He somehow talked me into having an affair. I felt beyond sick and uncomfortable about it ever since. I didn't say no, but I wanted to. He made me feel special, all the shitty things. It was a type of an assault on my psyche, my mind, my heart, and my conscience.

It took me until this podcast, at 37 years old, to finally forgive myself. Thanks for giving me space to sit with my feels and open the door to something I didn't think I could heal from. Oh, gosh. And here's the last one I wanted to share. I discovered my husband calling and visiting massage parlors, offering sexual favors by underage girls, whom I believe are victims of trafficking. I relate to the fairy tale, picturesque life of dreams to come in history. proposed to at a castle in Germany. I've never been a princess type, but he sure made me feel like one.

My family loved him as he offered a helping hand to anyone in need, total Boy Scout, do-good or facade, that was all ingenuine and too good to be true. Jennifer, your story is exactly what I needed to hear at this moment in my life. It has truly impacted my life in the best ways and restored my hope in the potential resilience and recovery and healing with the human spirit. much love and gratitude. You know, I was really scared to put this out there.

It's so personal. It's not a comfortable topic. What do you think you've learned from this? Man, how to be patient, how to be resilient, how to just have faith that the sun would come up the next day. And so hearing that it has helped other people, that that's it. That's the whole reason that I did this.

I feel like you did your job, Jen. We are beyond grateful to our listeners for the outpouring of support. Since we've started, so many of you have written into BetrialPod at gmail.com with your personal experiences and questions associated with this story. Our plan is to address them, so we're taking a few weeks off, but plan to bring you new episodes with new insights very soon. Stay tuned. If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com.

That's Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I-Heart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Federman. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and and Jessica Kreinschick, sound editing and mixing done by Matt Tevecchio, betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by mind music.

And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from HowTo Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on,

and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dr. Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist, Dr. Steve Poulter, to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name.

Part of the way through the Valley of Despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward. Our two-part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex-gay who married. an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything that gay, but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story,

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Thank you.