Betrayal - The Making of Season 5 | BONUS

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

The Betrayal team takes you behind the scenes of Season 5 – unpacking how Saskia’s story came to be, and all the memorable moments along the way.    If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts.  Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available. If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today, we have a little best-friend compatibility test. Okay, how long have we been best friends? This is the day we met. As the League One volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind-the-scenes stories,

and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Open your free IHeart radio app, search serving pancakes, and listen now. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

10, 10, shots five in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I scream, get down, get

down, those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten. end of mystery. That may or may not have been political. It may have been about sex. Listen to Roershack, murder at City Hall on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Kahn, the singer-songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit Stick Season, and one of the biggest voices in music today. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. Getting to talk about this, It's not common for me.

Right now, I need it more than ever. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they failed. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Today, we have another bonus episode. Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk about how the season came to be. be in all of the moments that stuck with us along the way. Here's our conversation. Hi, everybody. Hi. We did this last year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about

all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season. And I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show. Yeah, sure. Hi, I'm Caitlin Golden, and I helped to produce this season. Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer. I'm Monique Laborde.

I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal. I'm Matt Dalvikia. I am a sound engineer on Betrayal. And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors. I think a really great place to start is how, we found the story in the first place. I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Saskia's story came to be? Yeah, I started at Glass about two years ago

as an associate producer when Carrie and Mo were running production on betrayal. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people, you know, write in with their thoughts about the show, but also kind of most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of betrayal. So Saskia, she sent an email September 24, which is the same month that Giselle Pelico went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email. I want to read it. It's pretty short. She said, hello, I live in Maryland, and I was married to hold for it, the man of my dreams. Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. Ended up, he was doing horrible. things to me while I was unconscious night after night and broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale in between being the perfect husband father and stepfather. Things only got worse when

I found out what he was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote, raping your wife, and quote, apparently was not a crime in Maryland. So we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for court. I would really like to tell my story. I can so relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji. Thank you, Saskia. So yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here where the story is officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort. Jere, I'm curious when you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode, is there something that stands out for you?

A scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story? I think for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health, and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that. is just so cruel. To me, that's why I thought this was a really good season. Like the two things that were happening, light a day and in the darkness. One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors.

They're acting out the part of a loving husband. or a great stepfather, but they're really actors. And once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it, it's like a giant fraud. Yeah. The other aspect of the story that I just was like,

from an emotional point of view, I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape. That's the only person that's worthy of saying I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street and this happened. Zoski's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her.

And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial. So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season. Totally. What about you? I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story. And then all of a sudden she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail. And she says, this was completely legal in my state. And I was like, wait, what?

How in the world? I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just, it really hit me a little bit because like I don't understand how that could even be. Tanner, you knew nothing going into the season about the story and the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go. Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit. Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you? And what do you feel like was the most impactful?

What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike, I think it was during the divorce trial. that he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing if he was not raping her? What did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me, even after admitting to committing this crime,

then go to a different court and say the exact opposite. there is an entitlement there that exists in our society whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland he already felt entitled to her body in a way however he wanted it and then there are laws that exist in the state in which he lives with his wife that emboldened and validate that entitlement those two things, I think, have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country. That goes kind of hand in hand to the most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come up recently have helped change these laws. And these laws are changing. And I think it's good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this.

On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend compatibility test. Okay. How long have we been best friends for? Since the day we met. As the League One volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like yin and yang, vodka and tequila. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scene stories, and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan Ledneckie.

I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. Just like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. God forbid we make mistakes or cuss at our coach. Like when time or two times. Open your free IHeart Radio app.

Search Serving Pancakes and listen now. This has been serving pancakes and we'll catch you on the flip side. Okay. Presented by Capital One, Founding Part of. of I Heart Women's Sports. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend

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or wherever you get your podcasts. A silver 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene. From I-Heart podcasts and Best Case Studios, this is Rorschach, murder at City Hall. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead.

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Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Noah Kahn, the singer-songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit, Stick Season, and one of the biggest voices in music today. Noah opens up about the pressure that followed his rapid success, his struggles with mental health and body image, and the fear of starting again after such a defining moment in his career. It's easy to look at somebody and be like,

Your life must be so sick. Man, you have no clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music.

If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck. I'm like, I suck. Getting to talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. Listen to on. on purpose with Jay Chetty on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you've deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm, and own up to my mistake? stakes. And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person, would say, you know what, no fault divorce, let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as

little harm in this process to Saskia. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. as much as it is to tell Soski's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Lemon good story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being. I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild. But I also think about the fact of like what has this person done to restore and help support Saskia? This is something Carrie and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four. and when this season came around,

Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass, Burden of Guilt, and that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make amends for something heinous that he did in his past. And that's something Carrie and I've been talking about here with Season 5 of Betrayal, with Saskia's story, because we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators.

We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us. right to us and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levin Good had made to acknowledge the harm he had done to make amends, you know, and he did plead guilty. Like, he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her, to not put her through the divorce trial she did. And like you were saying, Andrea, like, he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there. And it's disappointing, honestly. I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends an accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past.

And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levin. good. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And Tray gets on the line, tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about his relationship with Saskia Inwood. And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking. Like you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is. doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life. And that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded. I'm so curious. This goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season? And why?

The courtroom, the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time. And hearing the judge see through Mike's lies, you know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or are just being spun in this way, and then to hear the person with the power, see through it and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying. truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Dana. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just thinks

that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually, you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me, too. Yeah. And sometimes you can have all the evidence, the videos, the photos, and it's still in may not be enough, but in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm so grateful. Carrie, I was going to ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it,

having worked with so many different subjects, what to you really resonated this season? I think we knew even before the Giselle Pelico story came out, this kind of crime is a trend. It's underreported. And it's probably underreported because people are too shame-filled to report it. Yeah. And it's under-prosecuted. I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public.

Because you never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning, unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it's just information and education that it's okay to question. Totally. And I mean, with the idea that this is a trend, for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Ember, and Stephanie, and watching the three of them

in their progression and their healing journey has been really impactful too. I mean, Drey and I talk all the time about Natalie in particular. She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal Weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous. And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about, do you want to tell your story now? is later down the line a better time,

what level of anonymity do we want to use? She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that roundtable conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Like our hope as a show is always the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way,

that by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes, like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional.

I mean, that's the thing, is realizing that you're not alone. I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates. Yeah. And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end. And spoilers, if anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode.

It's an update on Ember Natalie and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talk to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She had chopped off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror. And she's just now reclaiming her body. And that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago, it's astonishing. to see what she's done in the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side.

It's cool. It's really cool. When people ask, which they often do, oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this, the antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making. And to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story. that we hear. Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce.

It was an emotional one to produce. And, you know, we deal with really tough subject matter, but I'm really proud of the season, and I'm proud of everyone's work on it. And so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org slash betrayal. That's R.A.

I-N-N-N-org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through Raines National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-5-6-Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at G-E-M.

email.com or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fascent. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden.

Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo. Production Management by Kristen Melchuri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our I-Hart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins

with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trail's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mib Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Serving Pancakes Podcasts, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court.

Today we have a little best friend compatibility test. Okay, how long have we been best friends? Since the day we met. As the League One volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scene stories, and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the three.

future of volleyball. Open your free IHeart radio app, search serving pancakes, and listen now. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. 10, 10, shots five. City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.

A shocking public murder. This was one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten. end of mystery that may or may not have been political

that may have been about sex listen to Rorschach murder at City Hall on the Iheart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey I'm Jay Shetty host of the On Purpose podcast My latest episode is with Noah Kahn The Singer-Songwriter behind the multi-platinum global hit Stick Season and one of the biggest voices in music today

Talking about the mental illness stuff It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of Getting to talk about this It's not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Chetty on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month,

and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they failed. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.