Betrayal - Three Little Birds | Karoline's Story

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

A return trip to Colorado Springs uncovers a new betrayal. A woman who had an affair with Joel shares her experience. Karoline and her kids redefine life as a family of three.  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod.    To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.     You can listen to new episodes of Betrayal Season 4 completely ad-free and 1 week early with an iHeart True Crime+ subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high. And the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right.

Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on. And the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement. The ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything that gay, but he really tried hard not.

to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu.

It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news.

Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show. Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to Betrayal. That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K, or just go to Substack.com,

search beyond betrayal and hit subscribe. I want to go back to where we started with the Kern family. Back to early in the series when we learned that Caroline's, husband, Joel, had been caught having sex in his police car. The day Joel was put on disciplinary leave pending termination, he could no longer keep his secret life a secret. So he finally came clean. And after an emotional family meeting,

Joel awkwardly pulled at his wedding ring, trying to pry it off his hand. He never removed his wedding ring. He always kept it on. So he struggled for a long time, but finally gets his ring off inside of it. I had engraved forever and ever, and Joel sets it down on the fireplace, and just walked out the door.

It was April 11th of 2022, the day the world no longer made sense to Caroline. She was at home with Nicole, just reeling, and she needed her people. One of those people was a woman were going to call Suzanne. We have disguised her voice to protect her. privacy. I remember exactly where we were. There was about seven or eight of us in the car going up to the journey concert up in Denver. A friend was the one who received the phone call, and I was sitting right behind her, and her reaction was, oh, my God, is he okay? And I'm like, oh my God. Suzanne's first fear was that Joel had been injured in the line of duty.

And then this other person told me that Joel was having an affair. And that Caroline said that her life is about to fall apart. I said, you know, let's go home. So we literally pulled off the highway and pulled into a 7-Eleven. They jumped out of that car and got a ride to Caroline's house. There were no words that could make it better. So Suzanne didn't try. She just listened and cried with Caroline.

And we literally must have sat at the table with, you know, wine and food, from about 7 o'clock until that 11.30 that night. While we're there, Caroline said that Joel was having an affair. He was having an affair with multiple people. Suzanne's chest tightened as she watched Caroline unravel. Her heart was broken for her friend. That night would be the first of many they'd spend together at Caroline's kitchen table. What Suzanne could have never imagined was that she would soon need Caroline to return the favor.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 9. Three Little Birds Over the past several episodes, we've pulled back the curtain on Caroline's family and the unraveling of her marriage to Joel Kern. Through conversations with relatives, close friends, and former officers from the Colorado Springs Police Department, we've worked to piece together a complex and often painful story. Before we wrapped up this season, we decided to make a note

trip out to Colorado Springs. It looked a lot different. On our last visit, the streets were blanketed in snow, and we carefully navigated the mountain town, taking in its winter beauty. This time, spring was in the air, and along with the change of seasons, there were changes in the lives of Caroline and her friends. I told me, I'm like, this just must be for you because this is not going to be. The first time we visited Colorado Springs to meet Caroline, we were warmly welcomed into her Sunday supper club at home. Surrounded by her close friends, we shared a meal, some wine, and plenty of laughter.

It gave us a glimpse into her support system, the people who had stood by her through the discovery of Joel's betrayal. Suzanne was often at these dinners, but not that night. She was working, training for a new job. Her husband was there, though, and spoke about his wife with great affection. When we returned recently, we joined Caroline and Suzanne on a walk. It was a windy one around a nearby lake on a typical Colorado day. It was sunny with a view of Pike's Peak.

But that quickly changed to clouds rolling in around us. Caroline recalled the unconditional support she had received from Suzanne and her husband in her time of need. he and Suzanne had been at my house when my life blew up. Witnessing Caroline's distress, Suzanne and her husband held each other a little closer. Seeing firsthand how quickly a relationship can be decimated has an unsettling effect. They were the people who said, you got to get up so that we can go to Nicole's lacrosse game. We're going to sit with you in the stands. We're going to be next to you.

Hey, this awards things going on tonight. You don't need to go to that alone. We're going to go with you. They were those friends. They showed up. And they were one of those couples who truly enjoyed life together, running marathon side by side, always up for an adventure. They had met years earlier in another part of the country

and moved to Colorado Springs. But something beside the weather had shifted since we were last in Colorado. something in Suzanne's marriage. A few months ago, Caroline was away visiting her daughter Nicole at college when she received a surprising text from Suzanne. The message said, I just want to let you know, I appreciate you,

and I value what you have gone through. I've been thinking about you a lot, and I said, I really appreciate that. And then I got another text saying, hey, when you get home, let's sit down and chat. The words of support weren't unusual, but it wasn't like Suzanne to wait to chat in person.

Normally, she'd just call. Knowing what she had been through and knowing what she was going through, I did not want to ruin a weekend. While Caroline was away, Suzanne stumbled upon something in her own home that changed her entire life. 18 years into their marriage,

Suzanne discovered a series of emails that crossed the line, messages her husband had been exchanging with women online. And he had a fetish she knew nothing about. That's all we can say legally about it. As she kept reading, it became clear. This had been going on for a long time. After seeing the emails that I had seen,

I just needed to run. When Caroline returned home, Suzanne shared the whole story. The biggest hurt for me is that he would do this and not be open enough in our marriage after all that we've gone through, but that after hearing Caroline's story and going through everything for the last couple of years, you didn't think about sitting me down and saying, I got to tell you something. Like you don't think?

Like, what kind of secret keeping is that? Many women would have walked away if their husband confessed to this behavior. Suzanne was the type of person that would have been over. to rebuilding if he had told her the truth and if he was committed to addressing the behavior. And then in the end to find out that this biggest secret that you had, you've kept for so many years, instead of getting help. He was someone who was helping and supporting Caroline, knowing full well the entire time that he was engaging in betrayal himself.

Caroline was shaken, stunned, really. Suzanne's husband was part of her inner circle. He was an ally. He saw the pain the kids and I went through. Like, he witnessed the tears firsthand. Suzanne was devastated. She had always believed her husband was the most loyal man in the world. He was her person. So she told him to leave.

They separated, and Suzanne was left feeling lonely, distraught, and trying to make sense of the life she thought she knew. Caroline was furious. My anger toward him, I couldn't even hide it when she disclosed to me what happened. I had just this utmost hurt for her because of knowing what your chapter of life has been and how long you've been with someone. And then to think, now I have to start over and figure life out by myself. Like, how do you recover from that?

and knowing the array of emotions that were about ready to come was so heartbreaking to watch. Caroline had firsthand knowledge of what lay ahead. She knew the grief that accompanies betrayal and how it shakes you to your core. It doesn't just break your heart. It takes a toll on your whole body. I've called her a couple of times, especially where I'm like,

I just can't breathe. She's like, okay, stop, what happened? nothing happened. I just can't breathe. I've had panic attacks, anxiety attacks, emotional attacks. The weight of the separation really hit Suzanne after a trip to visit her family. Coming home from visiting family is another rough day, ironically, because you come back to a life that is not what you used to come back to. I don't have that confidant and that person at my house to lean on.

For Caroline, that's a familiar feeling. It's one she remembers well from those first days of being an empty nester. Shortly after, it was just me. Nicole had left for school, and it was just me lost in silence at the house. So instead of being alone, Caroline would spend time with people like Suzanne, friends who felt like family. Suzanne is still in those early days. I'm new at it right now, and I don't have three years in.

I'm starting to think of it like a death. You know, it never goes away. You compartmentalize. It's always going to be part of who you are now, and it makes you who you are in the future. But I don't think it ever goes away. I wondered how long it takes for this trauma and loss to no longer be the first thing you remember

when you open your eyes in the morning. I actually just had a conversation with Nicole about this today. She, her brother, and myself, We've confessed to each other that a day does not start without remembering what he did. Suzanne shares the same experience. I can have a good time going out with friends and doing things. And then as soon as I turn the corner to my house, bam, it all hits me again. I wake up in the morning and I realize that my house is empty.

Having a close friend who knows that feeling. I wouldn't trade her for anybody in the world right now because she does get it and she can answer those questions. The fact that you can have a friend that has these conversations with you is far and few between. I would never, ever, ever, ever wish this on anyone, ever. I would never want anyone to have the shock and awe and have to sit and relive and then rethink your entire life

and question if your family and marriage was a fraud. I never want anyone to ever experience that, ever. And I think there's this piece of me that feels attached to Suzanne as a result of this. I've learned a lot from her. She has taught me to be more open and honest in my feelings about stuff. We're still being incredibly brutally honest, where other times in friendships you don't have that opportunity to be. Love you.

I love you too. New year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there. If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money,

we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyankawali. And I'm Hurricane DeBolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.

I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy.

We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the mailroom podcast. Each January guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all?

To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience, helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally boldly. Why Shame hides in plain sight and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved.

Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. A decade ago, I was on the

trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. As we were getting closer to wrapping up Caroline's story, I asked her to join me to talk about what it has been like making this podcast. We've also seen a lot of listener feedback this season and received emails from people associated with the CSPD, and some of it is pretty shocking.

Here are some of our conversation. Caroline, I am so grateful that you shared your story with us this season, and I'm curious about your experience. Would you say it's been therapeutic for you? Doing this podcast was very helpful. I mean, it wasn't just helpful to be able to finally say my truth, finally tell my side, but I will also tell you what was something that was also very helpful and very therapeutic and very cathartic. What a lot of people don't know about this podcast is everything I say is vetted. There is nothing that I can recount or big moments that is not fact-checked, is not looked through by or cooperated by two, three, four other parties. Being able to have someone validate that this occurred, it was extremely important.

Yeah. I imagine that can be really powerful because it's validating your lived experience. Absolutely. I want to move on to some comments from listeners. And one thing I can say is people were really invested in your story. Are you down to hear some of them? I'd love to. Okay, the first one I'm going to share is from a former CSPD officer. He writes,

Dear Betrayal podcast host and team, I've been listening to Betrayal Season 4, and I feel the need to share how deeply the story affected me. I was one class behind Joel Kern. Hearing what he did, the multiple affairs lying to internal affairs, and his family was shocking. What devastated me even more was hearing how the department supported him.

Meanwhile, I served with honor for nearly 15 years. I continuously put my life on the line for this city. I suffered a mental breakdown on the job and was later diagnosed with PTSD and a traumatic brain injury. Both directly tied to my service. I never disgraced the badge. All I did was ask for help and I was denied again and again. The department psychologist said he didn't actually provide mental health care. I lost my job.

I lost my identity. My family and I have built our entire life around my police career. Suddenly, it was gone. I spiraled into nearly a decade of depression. I drank heavily. I was suicidal. At first, listening to this podcast made me sick. Then I felt ashamed.

Ashamed that I had ever worn the same badge. But as I kept listening, I'd be able to. came angry because I remember the culture and unethical behavior among command staff. My betrayal didn't come from a spouse. It came from the department I loved, the one I believed would stand behind me the way I stood behind the public. It didn't. Thank you for telling hard stories.

They matter. They remind the world that some of us were thrown away, not because we failed, but because we were no longer convenient. I won't share the name of the email, but I think I think you're not. you know this individual. I know who this person is and what their role was in the department. And their role was what you think of a police officer doing. I mean, you think of this person as engaging in heroic acts and very dangerous situations and circumstances. And knowing what this person did and what his assignment was, this email fills me with so much emotion. It just,

makes me feel nauseated to know that someone like him was cast aside and not provided the assistance and help that truly could have saved his career, truly could have saved him as an individual. It's just incredibly disheartening to me. It is disheartening. I mean, I guess all I can say is I'm grateful for this person's service and grateful that they felt safe enough to write in and share their story with us. and I hope this person feels hurt. And appreciated. He's very much appreciated.

Okay, this next email is interesting because it's not just from a different state, it's a different country. She writes, Thank you for putting season four out. I was married to a former police officer in Calgary, who was almost the same person as Joel Kern. The only difference is that the Calgary Police Service

swept it all under the rug. My ex was able to resign in 2021, while under five investigations. Since he chose to resign before he was fired, he has no record and can become a police officer anywhere in Canada. Unfortunately, these psychopaths get away with their crimes. Thank you for making these things known. It is wild that someone in Canada has such a similar experience to you.

Is that surprising to you? I don't think that my story is necessarily an anomaly in that. the sense that I was married to a police officer. I knew what I was getting when I was married to a cop. I knew that he would have to work nights. I knew that there would be weird hours. I knew there would be times he would not be able to be home for holidays or special events. These are things that I accepted. What I did not sign up for and I did not accept was for him to deface his badge and was for him to defy our marital vows. I did not sign up for that. Right. No, you didn't. And I think it's safe to say, that in your case, and I would argue in the case of the person that wrote in, that all the

allowances you guys made to help accommodate their job and their work schedules were exploited. Yes, absolutely, 100%. Okay, we're going to talk about one more email, and it was one that we recently received, and it was a shock to our team when we received it. We said it to you. You've had some time to digest it. I mean, I should say it's a shock, but not a complete surprise because, you know, having heard the number of people Joel was having affairs with. It's tough.

But to your point earlier about validation, I think it's important for us to discuss it. Okay. Okay. Here we go. To the host of Betrayal podcast, I don't know if my conscience will ever be clean, but writing you as a first step. I am one of Joel Kern's affairs. Joel was my lieutenant, and he held power. He also made me believe we were in a relationship and had a future.

I remember seeing Caroline and talk to her a few times. She'd show up to the substation with dinner for him or cake and ice cream for everyone for special occasions. She told her a shift that everyone was welcome to eat Thanksgiving dinner at their home if we had nowhere to go. One year she made Christmas dinner for the entire shift and set up a photo booth. I guess that's why it was flattering when Joel started complimenting me. He started flirting with me and sending messages when I was out. He asked what I look like in regular clothes. Then he asked me to meet him for dinner on shift.

Things started crossing the line and getting romantic. I told him that I couldn't believe he wanted someone like me when he had a pretty wife and kids. He told me that Caroline was only good to look at and said that she was sick with arthritis and didn't pay attention to him. Joel said she couldn't do anything or go anywhere. He said she was always in bed and he couldn't divorce her since she was so sick. I believed him.

We had sex at my house after work and a few times before. I felt guilty when we had sex in his office because of all the pictures of his wife and kids around. He told me the pictures were for show. I started to realize I wasn't the only one he was sleeping with. I was embarrassed and ashamed. A friend showed his Facebook page. I was so mad when I saw pictures of Joel and Caroline after she ran a marathon. I confronted him about her being sick.

How did she run a marathon if she was so sick? He laughed at me and told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I know I'm not the only affair he had at CSPD, but every day I wish I wasn't one of the people on his roster. If Caroline gets these emails, then I want her to know that I'm very sorry and hope she can move forward. This email is a great example of, you know, what we explored in this season is, you know, as you're trying to move forward and just live your life, you know, you take three steps and then bam. New information, a new affair you didn't see coming. And it's just another blow. It's just another hit. I'm desensitized to hearing about affairs. Like that part doesn't.

hit my soul. Hearing this email, the part that just is a gut punch to me is hearing the manipulation tactics and the lies used to garner his sexual affairs. Very few people know that I have rheumatoid arthritis. Very few people know that about me. It is not something that debilitates me and puts me bedridden, but for him to have used that and told someone that to manipulate them to have sex with him, it just sickens me. It honestly just feels like nothing was off limits in his pursuit. I mean, it's fascinating and horrifying how much Joel was manipulating, everyone in his orbit. So a new friend from my women's group said something to me that had just really stuck with me.

She said, it's like we were living in the Truman Show. Joel was the director and the rest of us were just cast members, just going along with the script without even knowing it. There was the life that he lived with us or the one that, you know, that he pretended to live with us. And then there was this version he showed to people at work. None of it was real. all of it was a performance. I think this is a good time to mention. We did reach out to Joel to give him the opportunity to share on the podcast,

but he did decline our request for an interview. However, he did send us a written statement, and I'm going to read that now. Thank you for reaching out. I understand the nature of the series and appreciate the opportunity to respond. However, I've decided not to participate in the podcast. I do want to acknowledge that I've made mistakes and that others have their own stories to tell. While I will not be adding to the conversation publicly,

I continue to reflect and work on becoming a better version of myself. I ask that this message be taken as my only comment. Sincerely, Joel. I think it's fair to say that we're probably never going to get to the bottom of why Joel did what he did, why he did this to your family, why he did this to you. But here's what I do know. There are so many people who've been betrayed by a partner,

and it's isolating and it's deeply lonely in hearing your story, your honesty, your strength, your vulnerability. It might be the moment someone else realizes that they're not alone. Thank you for giving me the platform to do it. year, new goals, and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt, and I'm Joel. We are from the How to Money podcast, and every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there.

If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.

I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body in mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection.

We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, this is Dr. Jesse Mills, director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health and host of the mailroom podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix, what's broken? But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Polter, a psychologist with over 30 years' experience,

helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught the name. In a powerful two-part conversation, we discuss why men aren't. emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others. Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy as in compassion. If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

favorite shows. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.

After months getting to know Caroline and her world, we had one more trip that we wanted to take, to watch her son run the Boston Marathon. It wasn't his first time running, but this was the first time Caroline and Nicole would get to see him cross the finish line. We were excited to go along. Before race day, we all sat down at dinner together. Nicole was grateful, not just to have the whole family in one place, but to finally share this experience and to talk together for the podcast. By the way, you'll hear the sounds of the restaurant in the background. This is our first time talking all three of us.

Now that I had them all at one table, I wanted to ask them about something I'd noticed. Caroline has lots of images of birds around, in her home, and even in a tattoo. I asked the family about it. My mom would probably be the best for that. So, life blows up and we're just for that. We would check in with each other every day. And we started talking about, you know, just different mantras and how we kept going. And one day my son said, I keep hearing the Bob Marley song,

and it just keeps chanting like everything's going to be all right. I actually thought to myself how fitting that obviously the chorus is everything is going to be all right. but the title of the song is Three Little Birds. And so we were a family of four, but we really dwindled down to three. And it just became three little birds. And after that, our mantra has been three little birds, or we sign everything off on to each other, TLD. It just has become our thing.

The next morning, we were off to the Boston Marathon. His freshman year, he had the goal of doing this, and it was a big deal for him to train and cross the finish line. And he was scheduled to do this in April of 2022. And so just a week before that was our designated D-Day when Joel blew up our lives. And we didn't know if he would follow through with it. And he said that it was a big deal for him to do it, that training and being a part of something bigger was just kind of keeping him on a path

to heal for himself since he was so far away and to keep his mind off of certain things. And so he did it. The first time he ran the marathon, Joel's betrayal was painfully fresh. The day that he did the race, Joel called and in the middle of the conversation. We were sitting in a car,

and Nicole actually had to say, you do know that today is a bigger day than you. my brother's doing this marathon and you completely forgot about it. There's so much more that's bigger than you. Well, this is the first year that we have actually gotten to see him cross the finish line. It's just been a slow, just a slow burn, a slow achievement to try to keep going. And if I were to tell you that I think the kids and I will ever cross like a finish line from the trauma that was caused, I just don't think that's realistic.

I think we can keep going, and I think we can continue to figure out our way through it, but I'm not sure that we'll really truly ever understand no reasons why or really get over anything, but we will get through it. But today was a good day. Standing on the streets of Boston near the finish line, the sky was clear, and we cheered runners as they crossed.

I was holding a sign that said, free beer at finish line, and we waited with anticipation for Caroline's son. The three of us have been through something that no three other people will ever have gone exactly through. And so to be able to say that we're still here, still standing, still achieving, and still together, I think that's incredible. Pure joy, pure love. Maybe every little thing is imperfect. But these three little birds are doing all right, just like the song says. That might be my baby boy.

Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content news and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do.

Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I-Hard Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin. Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Federman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Mulcuri. Our I-Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinsch.

Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing by Matt Alvecchio and Tanner Robbins. And special thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from IHeart, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How to Money.

If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back. Prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah, each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to How to Money on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm John Polk. For years, I was the poster boy of the conversion therapy movement, the ex-gay who married an ex-lesbian and traveled the world telling my story of how I changed my sexuality from gay to straight. You might have heard my story, but you've never heard the real story. John has never been anything that gay, but he really tried hard not to be. Listen to Atonement, the John Polk story on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers, but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught.

The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island serial killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally. And I'm Hurricane Dabolu.

It's a new year. And on the podcast, Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less. alone. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.