Betrayal - Waking Up | EP 10 | Saskia's Story

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

Seven years have passed since Saskia’s discovery. This episode is a reflection on how Saskia got here – and how she's trying to move forward. Find Jessica Baum’s books Safe and Anxiously Attached here.   Content Warning for rape, tech-enabled sexual abuse, nonconsensual intimate image distribution, and mental health struggles.   If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com.  For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available. If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Lori Siegel, and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO, Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility

to the products we put out in the world. An in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd

was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scott Steelewell. police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Roll Doll. He thought up Willie Wonka and the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more.

What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Roll Doll, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1,

including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mishap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone, Andre here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have not.

never spoken before and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show, our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are about abuse, left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of these stories, there are similarities. Like in the way people talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed. Our life blew up on April 11th. April 2022 is when D-Day happened. And everything just blew up. All of this

blew up our life, our kids' lives, our community. completely ruined my family. For so many people, a betrayal is an ending, a death of the light they knew. I often get asked if it's depressing, working on stories like this day in, day out. And the truth is, a lot of the time, it's the opposite. Because as much as these are stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what happens after that moment. how people get up the next day,

how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life. And yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing. I think it would surprise him to see how much stronger I've gotten even since his attempt to totally destroy me.

I was not going to be just a dispensable person, someone that you can use and abuse and then discard. His focus was on my weaknesses, and he didn't realize how strong I am. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 5. Episode 10. Waking up. Before we talk about where Saskia is today, there's something I want to share. It's a bit of a left turn. But it has a lot to do with why I do this work and why I felt drawn to Saskia's story.

In college, I was raped. At the time, I was going through a really bad depression. And much in the same way that Saskia did, I drank to cope. One night when I was drunk, a person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't until the next day when I woke up that I knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe I let him on. Maybe I deserved it.

It's a feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience. And like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia. As soon as she found out what Mike did to her, she saw the truth clearly. He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. I said, no, no. I have mental health issues.

You're a predator and you're a monster. This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story. And it's actually pretty rare. Immediately, she knew the gravity of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then she took the stand and stood up to him. You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a sexual predator, Michael Levin Good.

You do have this inner strength that comes out at times. That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayals' producers. Where did that come from? I don't know. I really don't know. Wherever it came from, I've always admired that strength in Saskia. And back in those early days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand, seeing her divorce trial through,

no matter how many insults she had to face. But there's more than one way to be brave. This came up with Ashley Inderfur, the original prosecutor on Saskia's case. At the end of our interview, just before we stopped recording, there was one last last thing Ashley wanted to say. We talked about how brave Saskia is to have come forward and to have been willing to go through this process. But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms. While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery is just getting up the next morning and living your life. This was something I needed to hear. And I imagine some

listeners out there need to hear it too. Ravery isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up, graduating, and just getting on with my life was the bravest version of myself. And today, that form of bravery is what Saskia is practicing to. Kitty, chickie, burrito, hippie, pumpkin. The days of pursuing. justice are now behind her. These days for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and starting

her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking a walk. After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper-alert. It really felt like this is it and that there's no light at the end of the tunnel. Nowadays, she's not only back to a normal routine. She's creating that routine for herself for the first time in her adult life. Seven years ago, I was like a baby, just starting out, just learning to crawl. And learning to crawl was learning what I would choose to do on my own. I had never really been single until a few years ago. And just learning when I'm by myself, what do I choose to do? What do I choose to do? What do I choose to do? to eat? What do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that into who I am, for me to get my

agency back and be able to do what is good for me is where my power lies now. Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia needed someone like Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa. I've always viewed her as my baby sister as a very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable. And he gave her a sense of stability. Today, Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of, on her own. She's standing alone. She's doing life.

She's creating her own stability now. There's been so much change in the right direction. But there's a flip side to all this growth. I feel like I've started spending most of my my time alone. It's not just that Saska is taking time for herself, as Marisa told us. I would say that she socially isolates more so than she ever did. Saskia has her kids, but they're older now, and most of the time they're out of the house or with their dad.

She works from home and stays there through the evening with her pets to keep her company. since finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller. I was so devastated and shocked by everything that happened, that I had no choice but to start to protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering, right, to know that I can make my own choices and I can stay as safe as I need to or want to. But by putting up these walls,

she's not only protecting herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family. Here's Marisa again. She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long. I want her to be open to the good in people, and I want her to know what that feels like and to know that he didn't take it from her. When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to meet Saskia,

we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and what to expect. She was fully on board. In all of her interviews, she was open. But whenever we weren't recording, the walls went back up. In a way, I'd never encountered before with other stories.

For instance, during our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to dinner with our team. Saskia was the first person I've worked with who didn't really want to go. That was a real learning moment for me. The idea that going out to dinner with us could be hard. It was. I stopped doing those things for a long time.

It's been really hard for me to get back out there. I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that? On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes months of building rapport to get to that point. By the time we're When we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to share her story, but we questioned if she was ready

to really put herself out there with this show. So I asked her about that. I said to you, we don't have to do this. We don't have to go forward with this. You can always circle back when you are ready. How did that occur for you? It made me feel a little bit vulnerable. Like they're seeing how hard this is for me. Like, what am I doing? This is so difficult. Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead, she made a choice, the choice to keep going. I feel like this was the journey that was put in front of me,

and I was going to see it through, regardless of how difficult it was. I'm Lori Siegel, and I'm mostly human, I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they won't need a lot of guardrails around AI. This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration.

The world we live in is a competitive world. And I don't think that's going to stop. Even if you did a lot of redistribution, you know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others. And it's a multiplayer game. What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out on Mostly Human. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

You know Roll Doll, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Rolls, Doll is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What?

And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Doll got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film.

How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new. F1 romance novel suddenly popping up every year.

He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Wag Agetten change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper, into the wacky mishaps, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it,

that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the true. truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Grega lesbian, Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and other mental health providers.

But in choosing to do this podcast, we wanted to ensure she had extra support. So we connected her with Jessica Baum. I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an author of two books, anxiously attached and safe. If you've been listening to our show for a while, you might recognize Jess from season two, where she worked with our subject, Ashley Linton.

I studied interpersonal neural biology, and that is a study of how we form as infants, and young beings in relationship with others. It's how we form our attachment patterns. And I work a lot with my clients on getting into their body and starting to be with their nervous system and starting to connect all those dots. Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly.

And I'm going to continue working with her to the other side of this. Whenever she gets to the other side. Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up throughout the production process. It took strength to report the crime and get through those early days. But in many ways, that strength was a reflex. She saw no other path than to fight. This choice, to revisit what happened to her, to trust other people with her story,

has demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back to these recordings, and now she wants other people to hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might help somebody else. In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it felt profound, but it also was so scary and so uncomfortable. I honestly was like a little kid, like I hid my face in my shirt

because it felt so strange, receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what Mike did to me. And you had to start to recognize how bad it was. Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough to really do the deep diving into me and my story and my life. It feels wrong to me because I'm not used to doing that. And we have to get in touch with all the pain to do that. Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want to run.

100%. I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it, Part of you wants to do the work and the part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it. And I think that's actually a very normal part of this experience or the re-experiencing of it all. I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to Caitlin. Caitlin is one of our producers.

And she saw that I visibly got tearful and then started crying. And Caitlin's response, of course, was empathy. And, like, if this is too much for you, let's stop. And I said, no, like, I need to feel these feelings. It's hard, but I know that this is necessary. It's harder before it gets easier. Yep. That's what I'm finding.

And, you know, Saskia, some people don't have the capacity. It takes a lot to slow down and feel. Yeah, it's been really hard a few years. I'm proud of myself for taking the time to be by myself and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing to do at 47 years old. I wish that it would have happened a lot earlier for me, so I could have avoided some of these consequences. I don't know how many clients I have that are like 40 or 50 or 55 who say the same thing.

like, I wish I could have done this sooner. I remember asking my mentor once, when I got out of a really unhealthy relationship, I said, did I need to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this healing process occur? Like, was there another path? Sometimes we're just not ready to go there until things get bad enough or we need a wake-up call. Yeah, right. We have no choice but to slow down or stop and deal with things. In slowing down, Saska is not only facing these emotions coming up through the podcast, or sitting with her trauma from Mike.

She's going back further to her childhood, to understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike, and to try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Sasquia grew up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat. It had a real impact on her. She always had a lot of friends, but on the inside... I still felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I remember crying in the bathrooms

and not really knowing why. Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety. That's a big part of why she turned to out. alcohol. I remember the first time getting drunk and how good it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of things that I hadn't dealt with yet. We're under the surface. Stuff for my childhood. Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desire is we go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what feels a sense of belonging, and you weren't getting any of that at home. Right. Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I didn't get what I needed emotionally. And so that's always what I was

searching for, that feeling. Sure. Mike was really the first person that I thought actually loved me and was safe. It would be awful even if it was a stranger who did this to me or someone I had just met, but the fact that this was my partner for seven years. Supposed to be the safest person to you. I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before in my life. When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that very young part of you is looking to be taken care of.

Yeah. and attracted to someone who appears safe, who appears like they're going to take care of that little girl. And it ends up becoming a nightmare. Right. Mike presented as someone different. He presented as someone safer. He presented as not your normal type.

And it's almost like a fish on the hook. Your inner child is projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going to be the solution. because now this person is safe, they're meeting all your needs, and the truth is your attachment needs, we're still underneath the surface. 100%. I mean, you've helped me realize that I was seeking validation and feeling, yeah, taking care of. And he was in a position of power because he met those needs so well for you.

looking at how I got to this place has been really important because I don't need saving. For the first time in her life, Sasquia's not dating. Through this work in therapy, she's breaking patterns, sitting with her pain, putting herself first. I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and time as I need to heal. I don't have time or anything. to prioritize somebody else over me right now,

and that's when the healing has really started. I feel like I need to be able to trust myself before I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do know now is that I can do it on my own. If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with my feelings, I can walk away and I can still be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard lesson for me to learn,

But I don't think there was an easier one that would have hook you up. Oak me up. I'm Lori Siegel, and I'm mostly human. I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO, Sam Alman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers.

I think they won't need a lot of guardrails around AI. This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration. The world we live in is a competitive world, and I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution. We have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others. And it's a multiplayer game.

What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out I'm mostly human. My highest order bit is to not destroy. the world with AI. Listen to mostly human on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roaldahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it.

You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.

How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is strange. than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age. What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year? He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction.

And how did a 2023 event called Wag Ageddon, Change the Paddock Forever. That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on no grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it,

that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen's, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case.

I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alesspian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap.

Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until Justice has served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session, I heard something that made me smile.

Saskia was looking back on the early days of working with us and how much has changed since then. I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me, that makes me happy. And with this podcast, there was a lot of that. Like, I didn't know what support to expect. So it was all very kind of scary. But slowly, through lots of interviews, check-ins, and visits, our team earned Saskia's trust.

Today, our conversations are as much about what happened to her as they are about what shows we're watching, but our pets are doing, good days and bad days at work. Saskia's walls are down, and to me, that's an honor. For really the first new people Saski's let into her world in a long time. The support that I felt from working on this podcast, it's been something that I've never felt before, the empathy and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened, and I don't really believe in fate, but it was just what I needed

to deal with it and heal and... Yeah, do all the hard work. I know it's a re-experiencing, but I think it's the re-experiencing with the support that makes the difference. I totally agree. Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere. But just wants Saskia to take this experience of learning to trust us and translate it into trusting others again in her everyday life.

The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the work with me, but also other people who you can be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness with you. Instead of finding a new man and a new solution, we need to slow down and start to learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds. And a way to break this pattern is to lean on other people who don't medicate the trauma

but can be with you in your pain. I do have people that I know care about me. Who's one of those people? My sister, I think I used to feel like she wanted to be there, but it was just one more thing in her life that she felt like she wanted to fix. Now she kind of asks, like, do you just want me to be here to listen? That is literally the only thing we need is we just need people to be with us. In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones you've heard from throughout the season.

But it hasn't always felt easy to open up to them. I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not to show how much pain I'm in. I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and like us when we're messy and can be with all our parts. So we're like, I have to perform. I would never reach out to a friend to vent. I wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood. I would look internally and be like,

how can I fix myself so I can be okay for other people? Before Mike, Saskia was the silly, bubbly one in her friend group, no matter what she was going through on the inside. But after her discovery, there was no putting on a happy face. Everything went dark for me. and being around people that just had normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about.

I don't know what they bought at the store. It was easier for me to stay away. But connection is a two-way street. Sometimes her friends haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia, if they should or could talk about what happened. When we were in Maryland, I brought that up with Saskia's friend, Heather. Do you guys as a friend group talk about hard things? No.

Oh, let me rephrase that. Not with the person in the room. Why do you think that is? I think a lot of us are people pleasers, and so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And it's not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something. It's genuine concern, but not having the confidence to bring it up directly with the person. There's also the guilt her friends feel about.

about what happened to Saskia. Looking back now, knowing what Mike was doing, Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember, she was the friend that told Saskia to go through with the wedding. After the first time, Saskia saw something on Mike's laptop. I wish I would have given her that out

and been the friend that can be like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. Like, if you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to go through with this. It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could have done anything different. That guilt can make it hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia went through.

It's the reason why, for years, there weren't stories like this one out there. And it's a big part of why it took so long for men like Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby to be held accountable. We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's too violent, too gross. something meant to be kept private, especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy, or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence,

the photos and videos of her rape that will live on, on the internet, forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part of Mike's crimes, one that is hard for anyone to talk about, even Saskia. I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it. You feel like just trying to block it out of your psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it? Yeah, for sure. I don't think I knew how hard it was going to be how much I had suppressed in this to just get by. Marisa can see the effect these images have on Saskia.

She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display, and that makes her want to shrink. But I think the side of her that wants to stand up for herself and will feel no shame is stronger. Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light, despite how upsetting it can feel. She's being brave. For their part, her friends are starting to do the same. They're showing up for Saskia.

and talking more about what happened on the podcast, but even more so, with each other. I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried. Realizing how much people care about me, it's nice. Like I'm, you know, I'm growing and also, I think my relationships have kind of transformed also. She's finding new stability with the people who've been there all along.

On our last night in Maryland, Saskia invited all her people over for a party. In the days before, she almost canceled the whole thing. It had just been a full week of interviews. I was so anxious about doing a good job in telling my story that my nervous system was just in overdrive, and it felt like too much to go out or entertain. We assured her she didn't need to throw a party on our account.

Her people would understand too. But she wanted to do it. I want to actually enjoy life and I don't feel like I always have to show up with a happy face. I can just be me. So she gathered everyone on her back porch, her siblings, her friends. It was a tail end of summer. The sun was setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake, and trading funny stories from growing up.

We heard you could get fake ideas in Georgetown. throw all of us down to Georgetown. I could tell. It was a lot for Saskia. She looked tired and she couldn't seem to sit still in her chair. But in the midst of all of this, I heard something. So we were like, oh. So then we had to drive back down again.

Saskia's laugh. It was mentioned a lot in interviews with her friends and family. But this was the first time we really heard it for ourselves. And throughout the night, we kept hearing it. There's no clean end to the journey Saski is on. She'll never reach a point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal. I think healing is a series of smaller wins.

Maybe there will come a day when she'll wake up without her trauma on her mind. Maybe she'll call her sister or a friend the next time she feels alone. But for now, just having moments like this again, when she can just be with the people that love her and laugh. That's enough. Seven years ago, I really thought that my life was over. I felt humiliated, and I still think that that's true today. I feel exposed. But that, to me, is not as important as exposing somebody who thought.

that they could just operate in the dark. For a while, he pulled me into that darkness. And I refused to live there. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org slash betrayal. That's r-a-in-n-n.org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673.

or call 1-800-656-5-6, hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at Gmail.com or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. To access additional content

and to connect with the betrayal community, join our Substack at Betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group

in partnership with IHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasen. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Federman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo.

Production management by Kristen Melchuri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our I-Hard team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kreinschek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Sampi. Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The trail's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by Mib Music.

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