Better Offline - Better Offline CES 2025: Day 4 - Pt. 2

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Welcome to Better Offline’s coverage of the 2025 Consumer Electronics Show - a standup radio station in the Venetian with an attached open bar where reporters, experts and various other characters bring you the stories from the floor. In Part 2 of our 4th day covering CES, Ed Zitron is joined by writer Ed Ongweso Jr, David Roth of Defector, Karissa Bell of Engadget, reporter Rob Pegoraro and Senior Transportation Reporter at TechCrunch Sean O’Kane to discuss mobility at CES, violent robots, furry robots, electric boats and, well, varying levels of potential fraud. Ed Ongweso Jr.: https://bsky.app/profile/bigblackjacobin.bsky.socialThe Tech Bubble Newsletter: https://thetechbubble.substack.com/ David Roth, Defector: https://bsky.app/profile/davidjroth.bsky.social It’s Christmastown Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/its-christmastown/id1407429849 Defector: Defector.com Karissa Bell, Engadget https://bsky.app/profile/karissabe.bsky.social https://www.engadget.com/about/editors/karissa-bell/ Rob Pegoraro: https://bsky.app/profile/robpegoraro.com Sean O’Kane: https://bsky.app/profile/seanokane.bsky.social https://techcrunch.com/author/sean-okane/  --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/  Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/edzitron.com https://www.threads.net/@edzitronSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined.

Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-I-Hart. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward.

At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world, like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last?

Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sponsored by Alaska Airlines, it's not sponsored by that Bat Ruff Line, sponsored by Alaska Airlines

who just want to be abundantly clear. However, my name is Ed Zittron that is not made up. It's on my passport and my birth certificate. Welcome to BetRofline with day four on our part two episode and we're joined now by Sean O'Kane of TechCrunch, the senior transportation report report, I believe? Yeah, among other things.

Wonderful. Carissa Bell of Engadget, how are you doing, Carissa? I'm doing great. Hell yeah. And of course David J. Roth. Hi. Which is what you have to type in to find you on Blue Sky. Can't just type Roth. No. There's another guy, there's a more famous guy with my name. No, there's just a bunch of other guys with, okay, Yol Roth might be...

No, the Van Halen guy. Yeah, he's not on blue sky. You don't know that, he's probably just lurking. I've looked. All right. He's on an alt. Yeah, it's Adrian Dittman. Oh, God, that's like hours of...

Panama. Panama. Okay, anyway. So, Sean, what have you seen at the show that matters? Well, it's a weird show for me because on the transportation side of things, for years, this was like, everybody was like, CES is a car show, CES is a car show.

All the people who ran Detroit auction, the other American auto shows felt very fearful that this was what was drawing all the attention. Right. That, you know, I don't know if it's accommodation of the pandemic or the U.S. automakers not caring as much about trying to show off

that they're innovative, that's just not, there's nothing here on that side of things, on the automotive side of things. So it's been a lot of trying to find anything else within our sort of scope of that kind of broad transportation stuff. So I don't know, it's been weird. Like the biggest thing that we've had keynote-wise, there's been two.

There was BMW, which was just showing off. It was the most, like, I always separate them into sort of, like, there's just the straightforward press conference keynote-y thing. There's the mid-tier one, which was BMW, was definitely that. It was like Tim Meadows, sadly, making jokes about, like, his dick. Because the whole conceit was, like, we were being shrunk to fit inside of a BMW car. I bet both the woman allowed into that

really didn't like that. It was, yeah, I mean, it was, it was not explicit, but it was, what fucking year is this? Well, and he was joined by Ken Jong, so, you know, at least 2017. Oh, good, he's subtle. But that was all just about, like, you know, a user interface that's years away from being here.

It wasn't even about, like, a new vehicle or anything. Nice. But then there's, like, the top tier, like, go all out. And this year, that was Delta, which Ed Bastion, the CEO of that, they did it in the sphere. They filled the room with what seems like many Delta employees.

Nice. So people were like going crazy. And they brought out. The whole thing started. Was this with Lenny Kravitz? Yes, it ended with Lenny Kravitz. It started with Viola Davis. Who is that?

The actor. Yeah. What did she? I know Lenny Kravitz played a song where he rhymes fly with fly. What have Viola Davis dude? Like, just come out there and have Gravitas? Yes. Absolutely.

I mean, you could, that is probably, that is definitely what they wrote on the invoice. Yeah, she rocks. I'm sure that nobody does it better. There is just kind of like... Somebody on our team that's been helping cover this made the joke that it was like the biggest gap between talent and substance as far as these like celebrity presentations of this week. And it was definitely true. But yeah, it was like...

The Orson-Wells-Paul Mason wine commercial. Yeah. I bet awesome Wells would really fucking hate apps. Anyway, he would be here at CES though, taking a check. I will not use the knowledge. Samsung Bolly. But it started with her... It started with her. It had, you know, it was very weird because Ed Bastion was, it felt like he was trying to

like justify being in the sphere and being at CES by talking about, we're going to talk tonight about the next hundred years of aviation. And I was like, that's weird. That wasn't in the embargoed press materials. But he never did. That's not what it was. It was like them spending. They had these little vignettes about how generative AI is going to tell.

you not to take the car through traffic and instead you'll take a electric vertical take off and landing thing to the airport. Cool. It was all I think it was the very real VTOLs that definitely exist. Exactly. Yeah. It was like here are all the ways we're going to treat the richest passengers on Delta like babies because that's what they want.

And then Tom Brady came out. Really? Yeah. This is why I'm surprised you didn't know about it. Tom Brady came out and two incredible gifts that he gave the world. one, they're launching an exclusive travel show hosted by him that will only be available on Delta flights. That's incredible. It's more of a threat.

And in addition to that, he wanted to offer the second gift, which was his top three travel hacks. Be rich. Be Tom Brady. And C1 and two. Do you remember what the hacksword? Yeah, actually genuinely wondering. Yeah, I mean, you're awfully close, sir. The first one was drink water.

Yeah. The second one, don't eat nightshades. The third one, some dietary shit that's even crazier than that. Yeah, I mean, you guys, I mean, I was imagining that you would be pretty close to the heartbeat on this one. You could have so many ideas other than water. Yeah, that's what he started with. Number two was make sure you're healthy. Make sure you're maintaining your health. Oh, boy. Okay. And then number three.

So no. Number three, get work done on the airplane. Use that time to be productive. What are you fucking doing? Thoughts of dog. Love it. That's really great. So, Carissa, how's your show beam?

What have you been on? Anything good? So I've been on the robot beat. Cool. That sounds like a real thing. Yes. Don't break his heart. Sure.

Mostly, the best ones I've seen so far have been cute robots that don't really do anything, but make you kind of happy. Uh-huh. I saw one that I found heart rending. We went down, Edward Onguoso, and I went down to the, like, the eureka room, which is basically, like, like, Gollum lives there most of the time. Yeah, the undercity from Arcane. And they had, it was a very cute robot dog, but it was for people that have, like, dementia or that, like, couldn't really have a pet, but that the experience of having a pet would work for them.

You know, that would be beneficial. And, I mean, that part was nice and it was heart-rending to me for reasons I don't need to, you know, put on this podcast because they're trying to keep the light. But mostly I was just like, damn, that's a cute robot dog that you've made. There are a surprising number of emotional support robots here at CES. Interesting. Is that like a long-standing thing? This is my first time doing it.

I've seen it a few years ago. Like, they've had them before. Yeah, they're not necessarily new. A lot of them are from Japanese companies, which is kind of interesting. Is there a reason behind that? I mean, I don't know if there's like an official reason other than I think they have like, they like weird stuff more there. No, that's cool.

Our favorite one, which we actually ate one in Nengaggettel board for Best of CES, was this cute little furry robot that can sit on your arm or on a purse or something. It all does a stare at you. Okay, they mentioned this earlier, and it chilled me to the bone. I'm just thinking of a Morrowind MPC, like I'm just snapping on you, like, criminal, put that down. No, it's so cute, and it's like soft, and it's not, what I like about it, it's not supposed to do anything other than just, like, make you happy when you look at it. And it does it. Does it need to be a robot? Because what you're describing could work as a stuffed animal to me.

How would it stare at you? What's the robot stuff that it does? Oh, the eyes follow you? Yeah, the eyes look at you a little bit. I mean, that's pretty much it. You know, it's more of a like souped up Furby. Yes. I mean, I saw a bunch of stuff that to me like in, you know, again, just as more or less

being ignorant with it, just I was like, yeah, that's a Furby of some kind. Like, I'm going to come back to that. But yeah, they're still like refining the Furby experience for different, you know, market sectors and needs, it seems like. Which I guess is cool. I mean, Furby is probably one of the... Was Furby here? Was Furby actually here?

I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. That's a disappointment. I can't stop thinking about the Furby... It's a missed opportunity. iterating on the Furby to return more shareholder value. Adam Sandler innovated as far as the Furby goes in uncut gems. Banging on a table on a Zoom call with like 300 people.

Kegi, check this out. It's a cryptocurrency. Yeah, he loves to say it wrong. This is how I love. So did you see any weird robots, though, other than the emotional support ones, did you see anything bizarre? Yes. So I was attacked by one. Perfect, ish. How was that? Slightly terrifying. So there's this Chinese company called, I think it's pronounced Unitary, that they have a, like, they have like knockoff Boston Dynamics robots.

So their new one is like a quadruped that's like spot, you know, it's like a, you know, it's like a, Those creepy dog ones that runs around. They kind of bounce around. Yeah. And then they have a humanoid one that I think is called the G1. And so we're at the booth and we're taking photos of it. And I'm standing right in front of it. And there's a guy controlling it.

And he puts the controller under his arm and mashes the joystick forward. So it runs at me full speed. Oh, my gosh. Just a 60 pound. Jesus. Probably four foot tall robot. And he didn't really realize what was happening at first. So there was probably about four seconds where it was.

It was just like fully... Pursuing you. Yes. What the hell? I know, but I can't even blame the robot because it was user error from this guy. But the funniest part was, was that the conversation that happened immediately after this implied that this was not the first time that it happened. Come on, man. That feels like a skill issue vis-a-vis the joystick, though.

Like, you just need to stow that shit in a different way. Well, maybe you're trying. But... I would kick that thing's ass. feel like in the four seconds when the robot was on the trail. Like a 60 pound piece of metal kneecapping you? Yeah. Like, does that, like, did it hit you?

Yes. Oh, no. Like, it made full contact with me. I thought it was, like, chasing you and you were kind of like, turn this off. Vegas is a personal liability haven. There are, like, lawyers everywhere. You can call one now. That company is dust.

I know. We're really disappointed that we somehow failed to get this on video. I was actually taking photos at the time, but I was so shocked by what it happened. I did not take photos of it actually. I mean, how would you, you were being assaulted by a robot? That is crazy. And happened multiple times. Any good ones?

Like, positives? We're really trying. The little staring guy. Yeah, the staring one. Yeah. It would never hurt you. That robot couldn't even chase you, probably. No, it just looked at you.

Yeah, just looks at you and gives you a little shot of serotonin. Yeah. I don't get that. I don't have that in me. So anything else, like, is it just robotics for you, you've been covering on this trip? No, I also, I went to Linda Yaccarino's keynote. Oh, wow.

So, I hit the power was crazy. I have to like watch that tape just as a, it's a long time fan of her work. Was she electric? Was the vibe in the room electric? Have you ever seen her speak? A little bit. And it looks, well, I mean, whatever, strangely rendered. Like it just doesn't, it's life like.

So credit words do, but. We were talking about this, you know, for somebody who, was a media executive for a long time. She's very, at least I I never saw her speak in her prior role, but you know, when she's speaking, her capacity is ex-CEO, she's just, you know, it kind of sounds like she's speaking in sort of like sound bites, but they don't make sense

together. You know, like she's memorized like these three word things that she's supposed to say, but then... Like somebody tucked a joystick under their arm? Yeah. It does have a, like, the bit that I always have as my comparison is like those like sound boards that they used to have online where it would just be like different like Arnold Schwarzenegger saying different lines from kindergarten cop

and you push a button and he goes no and you push another one and he goes, how are you? And like but that's like sort of she just feels like she's got the presets and then someone's just back there going to town, boop and whatever. I can actually explain running a PR firm,

I can tell you, she is perfectly media trained. The problem is that media training is very rarely prepared for a person who has nothing else. you usually ideally you're training them so they can use that magic inside them they can bring out the personality the problem is i don't know whether linda has one and she does she does everything she even does the accordion you're meant to gesture and bring them in and then gesture which is meant to not be literally doing these movements of your hands like out and then in instead she's going br-br-run the whole fucking time

and also she sounds like she's prepared the sound exactly but you're meant to fill those in, Linda. You meant to have other thoughts that connect these thoughts together, not just be like, X is where it happens, and that's what's online. So that's what you're saying then is it was sort of like similar to the experience of her feed. Yes.

Which sounds like it would be incredibly jarring to witness life. I mean, it was lots of, you know, the legacy media is basically fan fiction for something. Like, I was even just trying to get like a

usable quote is very difficult because it just when you look at it in front of you like the words together don't make sense it's fantastic she's spinning a big wheel the legacy media yeah it's like oh oh this was adjective this could be anything well no you say that but she talked about like the grooming gangs in the UK so it kind of was that it kind of actually did she she did yeah I kind of tuned out that part I would have too at that end but I think she just uses like whatever Elon Musk is tweeting about that day as kind of like inspiration Yeah, X has been great for the 14, oh, maybe not. No, she has managed to stay like for now somewhat pure,

but it is interesting that the CES thing, she started to just crack and she's letting the Elon Musk bits through. And I think by this time next year, she'll either have left or been fired and blamed for everything as the money runs out of X. The funny thing was that this keynote room was at best half full. and like half of the people were asleep.

But then the other half... It's hard to find a seat here, so... The other half were really into it. People were, when she started talking about the grooming gangs, people were cheering, going, yeah, like... Wow. So what were... How many, like, people should there have been in that room?

I don't know the space. It was one of those larger ballrooms in the Venetian, so it's definitely not, you know, one of, like, the mega keynote-sized rooms. I really couldn't... That's fine. But there's sort of, like, two... sections of seats. The answer is not enough. Like the front half was pretty full, but like there's an

entire back half that was completely empty. Just the idea of her getting up there and like free associating about grooming gangs in the UK to 60 people feels like this has been the whole, this is the actual, I mean like, you know, cards on the table. I don't really like Linda Yakorino's work that much. I was just doing, I was doing a bit. But I do think that there's something about her as like as a character and as a performance that I found really fascinating. Just be. because she has to get up there and, like, abase herself on Elon's behalf and in Elon's words. That, like, that's the actual gig, you know? And so the idea of seeing that happening to, it's like, it's weird enough, you know, to every now and then,

I don't really look at Twitter much anymore, but people will sometimes send me, when she says, like, a weird reply, like, the one where she just said hot dog or, you know, like, I got that a bunch of times. I'm really glad that I did. It's cool that that's my brand that people are like. He'd probably like this bit of... Check out this shit. But the idea of there being, like, a real person doing that in a room feels like I would have felt... I would have had a hard time, I think, watching it.

Like, I feel like I would have felt embarrassed for her. I'd been cheering the whole time. Yeah. Was there a point? Because she was being interviewed, right? It wasn't just her giving a speech. Was there, like, a point to the interview? Like, what were they trying to achieve?

Yeah. It's a good question. So they started off, you know, talking about... Mark Zuckerberg and him saying that he wants to, you know, do community notes on Facebook. Right. And of course, she was, you know, a very big fan of that. She had, like, this one very obviously canned line that was, you know, Mark Meadow, welcome to the party.

Okay. That's good, though. You got to have a couple of real. The racism, pause. But some real bangers written ahead of time that you know. I imagine that got a huge pop in the room. Everybody was like, yes, go off, Queen. I was silent.

Yeah. Oh, really weird. That's interesting. I'd love to be the guys that Woo! Yeah. Yeah, welcome to the party, pal. I pay 200 bucks a month for GROC.

Yeah, anyone check out the logo of GROC, by the way. I feel like someone brought this up before, but the logo of GROC is insane. I didn't know how to look at a logo. I now realize how impractical it's going to be to show everyone that's right. I'm just going to show this to David because... All right, I'll describe it. It's like an X-I. Oh, it's the XAI logo, isn't it, right?

Is that the fucking... Yeah, it's the logo for his artificial intelligence company. Yeah. It looks like a generative AI defect. You're talking about the one with the cat? No, no, I'm saying that it just the size is wrong. Fucking, that's my phone background, David. All right, sorry.

It's my beautiful boy, Pinguish. That's his cat, Grog. Yeah, Tingis Pinguish. Jesus Christ. This is why he's so mad at you. Brock. Stealing all the best ideas. I'm not an uncle with three horrible sons that each have a Ford dealership.

Jesus Christ. So I haven't seen as much about who's speaking here. I know that, like, Yaccarino I was aware of because, again, like, people in my life like to tell me when she does things. But the other stuff, is that like, again, as a, you know, noob to the CES experience, it doesn't seem like people are here to, well, they're here to, like, do deals and, like, have or be pursued by robots. that there's not like, it doesn't feel like there's a thing where people are here to like watch people talk. Is that a part of the culture that like speech is usually a big deal here? Yeah, I mean, yeah. Okay.

Historically. I mean, there's a really good one. I mean, if I could genuinely recommend one, there's one from 2009 that you should watch where Tom Hanks came out to do some presentation on behalf of Sony because this is when he was doing the Angels and Demons, DaVinci Code franchise. Oh, yeah. Okay. So it was basically like written into his contract. like come to CDS and CES and like talk about these new AR glasses that clearly materialized in the last decade. Yeah.

That was the first time anybody saw them before they became ubiquitous. Yeah. And it's just the best example of like someone who was really willing to take the piss out of the whole experience and not. Like Tim Meadows like the other day at the BMW thing was like sort of doing it, but in like the lightest touchway like making fun of like all these German automotive executives around him. But like, you know, within generous reason. Tom Hanks is like, you could feel them sort of like slipping the hook around his neck to get him off the stage. Nice. So it's definitely part of it.

Oh yeah, I haven't witnessed any of the famous person part of it. Because I know that's apparently there's like a celebrity. William's here? I hit William. William. William. Oh, Will I am. I wouldn't be surprised.

He's here like pretty much every year with some new bad product. Some new scam. Yeah. But there's always the first few nights. There's always some big event. It's, you know, somebody. different companies get it every year. The last time I was here,

2020, one of the big ones was Mercedes-Benz did a big, one of the big keynotes, and they rolled out some concept car that was sort of based on Avatar, and so the concept car had these like scales that rose up and stuff, and then James Cameron came out and was like, here's a still from Avatar 2.

Yeah, I'm still making it. It's coming. And like, you know, it was whatever. That was when people were still kind of unsure about that happening. But, so yeah, it's a part of the culture. Okay. It's a thing for people to do after they've been suffering on the show floor all day is like go sit in an arena and watch Michael Bay talk about Samsung displays. I was going to say, like I would have, by the end of today, like, I would sit pretty much anywhere and watch pretty much anyone talk about pretty much anything.

Not off in the back of the room with Linda Yakorinos. Yeah, I'm not sure that, yeah, like, if I could get in there and like charge my phone, I'd be like, you can just not the grooming gang stuff. It's bringing the mood down in the room. But the rest of it, I got 10 minutes before this thing's full. I just let me sit. So did you like anything? at the show Carissa, anything good? Anything like truly joyous? Like anything, put a big smile on your face. Anything I'm really trying with everyone.

So we saw a cane for people who are blind that has AI in it. And it was actually like an... We thought it was a interesting use of AI and chat GPT. How did it use it? So it has a camera on it and a little speaker. So as you're walking around, it can tell you like when it sees an obstacle.

and help you like, oh, there's a stare ahead of you or there's, you know, a lamp post. This sounds really good until the hallucinations. But what we liked about it was that it's still cane. So like even if the AI stuff doesn't work, it's not like, you know, the person is stranded and has no way to maneuver around. Sure, but if the information source, I know, it sounds like it would actually be useful, especially because I assume that no one would trust it fully.

I mean, the person who made it, who runs the company is, you know, has been blind since birth. that is actually a genuinely good, sorry, that's not a good thing, just to be clear. But they have the experience to make a product that would be good. There we go. Yeah, the accessibility tech was the stuff today that I, it was like the first thing that I saw that, like, again, I'm a soft touch. So I'm like impressed by like a cool TV. There's a part of me that's like, damn, you got a lot of colors on that thing. Nice. Nailed it.

But the, yeah, there was some of the, I think if it's the thing that I'm talking about, there's like two of them right next to each other on the eureka floor, the smart cane. Maybe there's more of them here, but I did see... There was one that did have, like, the AI bells and whistles. And then there was one of them which I remember Edward and I both being struck by that was, like, you don't have to have the internet to use this. Like, it was, like, clearly designed for, like, people that were, like, older and wanted a simpler experience of it without any of that stuff.

But in both of those cases, there's, you know, so much of, for me, walking around on the floor was, like, seeing these technologies that could potentially deliver solutions applied weirdly to non-problems in really overdetermined ways. And in this case, it's sort of like, oh, well, this would actually help somebody have a better life. That's kind of a cool thing to do with technology. Yeah. But also, how does it connect to the internet? I'm now, chat GPT requires an internet connection. Do you have to have Wi-Fi for it? Is it connected to your phone? That is a good question. I didn't write our piece about it, so I don't know.

Not your problem. I will be looking at the piece later. But also, that's the thing. every time you hear as a listener, if you hear Chat GPD, remember this thing needs the internet. These do not have on-device models, which means that your cane's just like not telling you where things are. Every time I try and avoid the disk, I'll be open. So this is going to probably piss you off, but they have two different kind of models.

So one is that it's a subscription for the ChatGPT functionality. Oh, yeah. That's the good stuff. Yeah. Or you can buy the more expensive one, which comes with. it. The lifetime subscription. See, the thing is that stuff does actually cost money so they do have to do something, but it's also like, oh man,

Granddad, sorry. Life's being rough right now, I can't afford the cane. You're just going to have to work out for yourself. I'm going to have to turn the subscription off. Sorry, Granddad, we don't have the pro subscription. It's only going to tell you some objects. Although, again, it does have... We don't pay for the car at on.

If you turn the subscription off, it's like, well, your cane's going to be a lot quieter this month. It's not like... It's going to turn into an oblong cylinder of plastic, which it was before and now. It's just not kind of talk to you. Give them a, yeah. They'll make the subscription. They'll make it load bearing, I guess.

Yeah, the subscription stuff is really sinister to me. It's everything now. So, Sean, how do you feel about Delta, though? What did Delta do differently? What was the Delta thing? We're talking about useful companies. I assume Delta wouldn't buy the sphere out

to just shovel a bunch of operating system stuff, right? No, it was pretty much a lot of that. Oh. It really, I mean, like I said, it was the buildup that Ed Bashan did at the beginning of like, this is the next 100 years. And it was, it almost made me want there to be more bullshit. Like insane stuff. Yeah. And it's weird because like I haven't been here since 2020 and they were a big part of 2020 show.

I feel like I saw more from them then because at that point they were still working on, you know, adding a bunch more features to the screen experience. in the seat back experience. They were working on this thing, you know, sort of a privacy nightmare kind of thing, but an idea at least that was interesting to think about of like a screen when you go into the terminal that it has, there have been these kind of TVs at CES in the past

where you'll have sort of a screen display that can split what it's showing you depending on where you're looking at it from. So theoretically multiple people could see multiple different things on the same screen. They pair that with facial recognition. You would theoretically walk into the terminal. You and I could stand next to each other. We could each get personal information about our flights and where we're going and all that kind of stuff. At least that was like,

we're working on this tech and seeing if it works. Like a thing that might happen. Yeah. This year it was very like, you know, it's all of course about generative AI. And it really was just a really weak showing of what they think that can do. Because the experience they showed off in these vignettes. It's like it's some of that same stuff. It's really, the best way I can describe it is it's treating these people like a baby.

It's like assuming you are like a high class Delta Sky Miles person and you can't be bothered to get to the airport on time. You can't be bothered to relate in traffic. You can't be bothered to, it was like, it'll tell you which gate is, which gate your flight is at and where that is.

As if you can't look at the gate number and like count down you know, like when you, the airports are built pretty well. I don't have a way of finding out where my flight is. Yeah, like I know I'm at gate 17. I see gate three. Oh, look, the numbers go to 17 that way. I really do not need generative AI to tell me that. And it was just, you know, I, the other weird thing about it was they're clearly trying to, like so many tech companies subsume all of your experience into Delta.

So it's like, you'll be flying there. That's what I want. You'll be able to plan out your trip while you're in midair on your screen. And Delta will help you book your reservations at all of these places. And it's just like there's no room in the vision that they're painting for you to have any part of your experience outside of the Delta. So none of this seems to make the flight better. No. And that's, I mean, that's the thing that really bums me out, has bummed me out a lot about CES this year.

Not just at Delta, but for so much of it. Like nothing is about making a lot of the little stuff better. Yeah. Even the convention itself, like, it's just, there's so much about being here. Like, Vegas has built up all of this extra stuff to make the ES even bigger. There's this whole new hall that wasn't here when I was here five years ago. And it's still not enough to, like, contain the people. Like, I went to get lunch today at, like, a relatively off-peak lunchtime.

Yeah. There's not enough seats for people. Like, I'm going to sit at this one counter that I see available, and then I'm told that it's part of some sort of display. that I can't sit at because I don't belong to those people. So it's like, okay, I'm going to go sit on the floor, which like I've done plenty of times in the many years. I've come here and like eat my lunch. But it's just like no one's working on any solution

for the dumb stuff like that. Or even the weird thing is like not even using that as an opportunity to present some of the technologies that are being promised is like, oh, wouldn't it be? It's just like it's the most pedestrian mall-ass experience like here. And it's just, you know, you can just feel how no one's heart is in it. That's what I was thinking about when you were talking about the idea of like

the full, you know, stem to stern Delta travel experience is that like I flew Delta out here. I had a perfectly fine flight, but like, you're still going through an airport. Like, it's still the sort of thing where it's like I was at JFK on a security line that took 45 minutes to get me through. Like, and so

there's, you know, some of that's my fault because I don't have pre or whatever, or I'm not rich enough to have whatever the, I mean, like Tom Brady does not have to go through security. I don't know if he's Tom Brady. Flying private or if he just signs a football for somebody and gets sent through. But in all those instances,

it's like these sort of weird pie in the sky solutions to things that do not necessarily scan to me as problems. Things that are basically like minor activations of agency, like looking up at the board and finding the number of my flight

and then being like, what gate is it? Yeah. Like, I don't necessarily need that solved. If you could find a way to make it less unpleasant to get to or go through JFK, like, that would be sick.

And yet, like, that's harder. This is the thing we keep coming back to in these conversations is that, like, that's a systemic, like, structural. That would require, like, state level action. Whereas here, they're sort of like, with the power of generative AI, you are going to be able to read words on a screen while flying through the air. And here's Lenny

Cravitz. And here's, ladies and gentlemen. Enough about Mr. Cravitz. We have to finish up the episode. Sean, where can people find you? Well, this block of the episode, I mean. Where can people find you? I'm on blue sky. That's the best place. Okay, do you want to say where? Seanokane.

Byski, how do you say that? Seanokane, and you'll find me. Okay, where do you work? I work at TechRunch. I've been there for a year. It's amazing. Lovely. Carissa, where can people find you?

They can find me on Blue Sky, still on threads for now. Carissa B.E. on both of them. And gadget. Wonderful. David. Defector.com is the website and the distraction. It's the podcast. I do for them.

You can find me off to the ad. break, listen, download, buy it. It's been like hours of this stuff. Now, I'm not giving you anything special. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman,

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You know me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-Eyheart to get started. That's 844-8-4-8-4-I-heart. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them?

On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star, Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you,

but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything.

I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman, catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world. He doesn't look back. Ferrari's and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey.

I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levant this plant to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know.

Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. We've got Sean O'Keehanor, of course, from TechCrunch. We've got Carissa Bell from Engadgett and David J. Roth of DeFector. And we're – Chris has said something very important just before we broke. And that is that Faraday Future are here.

My favorite not quite car company. They love to be on fire, don't they, folks? So what did you hear of Faraday Future? I must hear. So they were here pitching their latest kind of pivot, strategy shift, whatever you want to call it. Okay. Which is FX, a new subsidiary of Faraday Future

that will sell cheap EVs, and their plan is to source parts from China, bring them here make them look nice on the inside and sell them for probably between $20,000 to $50,000. So perhaps you can give some history about how well Faraday Future

has done selling cars. Yeah, all of you guys are making faces that I'm hearing that. Please, Chris. Illuminate how great they are. They have, to date, have sold 15 or 16 FF9-1s, which I believe...

1,000, 15 or 16,000. No, 15 or 16. No, 5. That's more manageable. So good. Of the only car that they've ever managed to actually sell, the FF91. Yeah. They're making about one a month is what the FX is.

And if I sell, you mean essentially lease to these people. And in some cases, actually strike contracts with them that basically reimburse them for the cost of the sale of the car. How long is this company been around? 2014. That's so good. They're 11 years old. Do they advertise themselves as a small batch automotive? No, they should.

Asset light. Yeah. So the new plan is to sell a cheaper shittier car? A cheaper minivan, specifically. Right. So a smaller total addressable market. This company rocks. Listen, I actually don't.

We were just talking off Mike, they refused to let me come see it because they didn't answer my questions. Yeah, man, you've written like seven different very aggressive stories about them. I wonder why. Well, yeah, we don't have time for all that. but my assumption is this van is a thing that when they did still have some money, because they don't really have a lot of money right now, but when they did have some money, one of their plans was to make this type of vehicle in China. So my assumption would be that this is one of the prototypes that they developed back then that's just been sitting in China, collecting dust, and now they've been able to put some new veneer on it. The problem with this company is they, well, a problem with this company is that they need money because they've run out. of the money from the founder. The founder basically created what was at one point sort of like a combination of Netflix and Apple in China. It had grown to like 10 billion or more in valuation

and then it ultimately crashed because he just over leveraged everything. I believe the term that the New York Times used at one point was debt bombs. And those debt bombs started going off and he exiled himself to the U.S. in 2017 and has been here ever since running the company. But the point is they don't have any money left, and they've been trying to raise it from people related to him and close to his orbit. And so the idea of selling a $200,000 car to people that clearly don't really necessarily want to buy it at scale is unpalatable. So they are going after this idea of making a low-cost car because they think it's a more investable business. Carissa, when we say lower cost, I didn't realize it was $200,000 for the regular one. That's the regular one, ish. I mean,

I think it's a sliding scale. To be fair to them. From not existing to never existing. You won't hear me say this often. To be fair to them, the goal with that one was to always compete with like the Maybacks and Bugatti's of the world. So it's not like it was... So extremely well-engineered cars that are well-known for their design and their execution on said design. Eventually.

That was the hope. Well, eventually is kind of the whole Faraday future thing. Yeah. So how much is the van, like the cheap van that they're doing? unclear, probably around $50,000, I think, based on what they said. I'll just say the prototypes we saw. You said that maybe these have been sitting around for a while. Maybe that's true.

These were rough. I mean, I believe that too. Define rough. So there was two different ones. One had sort of the more finished interior where they were trying to show off how they were kind of going to make a minivan, but for grown-ups and fancy. Right. But had no door handles.

Okay. Our friend John said, of course, of course it will have door handles, the real one. Which is always great when they have to tell you. You know, so I had some, you know, white leather captain seats that had, you know, massage functions. And, you know, it was okay. Just no door handles. No door handles. Completely, like, wrapped in that.

Did they have to, like, airlift you into it from the top or how did you get in? I mean, the doors opened. They just didn't have the handle. Just don't clear how? Yeah. And then there was the one that. we could actually ride in, which was just covered in fabric that was held together by binder clips, like the entire interior, literally binder clips.

I love this show. They said it was a plug-in hybrid. I got to drive it around. Honestly, it could have been a Toyota Ciana covered in fabric for all I know. Did it feel like an electric vehicle? I mean, it felt like, yeah, kind of. Yeah. I just love the idea that they would, this company sounds like they would,

actually do the Toyota to see anything. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm not suggesting. I'm not accusing them of that, just to be clear, legalities. But it could have, though, been for like, especially, I'm not an automotive journal, so it was very funny to me that they invited me to do this. Right. Max did tell me that I was the first lady to drive that particular vehicle. Wow, what an amazing honor.

Thanks for knowing that. Really doing the, like, not having door handles thing is incredible. Like, again, from being completely outside of this story. Like, this company rocks to me. Like, everything that you've described where they're just sort of like, and this one, it's like got a tarp on the inside of it. Like, you're just getting into whatever Kurt Russell's car from death proof. And be like, just take it for a spin, take it around a lot.

Like, that's a wild thing. Why would you want somebody to drive a car that looks that messed up on the inside? I mean, maybe Sean can speak to this. Like, you don't expect a prototype vehicle to necessarily be finished and have all these things. But not held together with binder clips. But what was also. telling to me was that the one press image they gave us was so low res and it showed them. It was like these two vans like in a field like at a great distance. And also the vans are covered in like camouflage

like wrap but so but which is you know that's a traditional automotive thing but set in this field because I saw this image earlier today it just looks like cow cars because it's like you know blocky black and white but in the field in this weird setting that you didn't normally see like a prototype car and it was like, my brain just like cows. I just love the idea of it being just like a deep fried JPEG. It's like 75K, sending that out to the press field. So don't, you could use this as like your avatar on social media. Do not put it on your website.

This will not render on blue sky. It's going to be pointillist. Again, to be fair to them, they do not have many employees left. It's basically most of the people who are here on different types of work visas that staff the company. Remaining prisoners. Perload or laid off pretty much. Is there like an endgame, like the idea there that like whatever technology they have would be purchased by some other company?

Is there like, or what happens? I think the founder is singular in his vision of wanting to say that, I mean, from what I've heard from the conversations I've had with people who have worked at this company over many years, this man is, well, I'll say two things and then I'll try not to go too long on it. One is that he, since he self-exiled himself from China to hear, the thinking is he wants to build up. up a successful business that would let him go back into China without just being snatched and thrown into a void upon landing. Because that's like he was put on a debtor blacklist. And what is kind of just for? I mean, he, he left the company with like billions of dollars owed by himself. What are the consequences of a debtor blacklist? You could just probably be disappeared by the state. So can you not leave China? Is that one of the things? On paper,

the limitations are like, you can't buy train tickets or you can't, you know, like you have like actual economic, like, restrictions placed. Some of your assets are frozen, things like that. But like the realistic thing, given the scale of the collapse of his business there, is that he would probably be, you know, hidden in a corner somewhere in a place. But having lots of money would allow him to avoid that? I think in his mind he thinks that if, I mean, he's, he's, it's too much to get into, but he is a very specific person when it comes to believing in the value of, you know,

sort of billionaire entrepreneurs. So I think he thinks that that has enough cachet that it would like... Other than having the billions part. Yeah. That seems to be the problem. Yeah. So I will say this. If I see a car, I expect the bits to be on.

Like the, like, I think that like that feels like a reasonable thing. Did they react to the falling apartness of this vehicle that allegedly would buy? No. I mean... Sick. So good. It's a fairly common thing. to show up with a prototype that's like half-baked.

At CES, we've seen some weird stuff over the years, especially from these startups. I think there's gradations of how complete it is or how much polish you want to put on it. I will say, I think that this company's probably coming from the experiences they've had with the more expensive car,

which is actually quite technologically accomplished for seven years ago when they developed it. And they got away with a lot of bad finish sort of rough edge demos at CES in years prior because people would forget

about that because they jam on the pedal on this thing and it would I mean it's fast as hell like the more expensive car that they've built is like incredible because or incredibly capable because they hired when he started this company they had all this money that he had

and they just overspent so much I mean so they went from being founded in 2014 to 1,500 people by 2016. And they did that by basically paying 50 to 100% more than the going rate for like every position within inside the company. And so they attracted all this talent from Tesla, Apple,

all these other companies, but they were very secretive about what they were doing because they're kind of trying to hide who was backing it. And this combination of like secrecy and obvious signs of money, at one point had people believing that this was a front for Apple's secretive project car project. Yeah.

And so, like, that's how, like, crazy the mania was getting around, like, what this company was broke. But so the point of, the reason I say that is, like, when the people who developed to the car included, like, the team that made the GM EV1, which is, like, thought of as, like, the first real mass market EV in the U.S. So, like, they had, like, real engineering behind it. And when they were demoing that car years ago here, people were, like, kind of falling in love with it because they were like, yeah, this company's kind of crazy. And, like, it doesn't really look like they're anywhere near ready to build these things. but these things are fast as hell and fun, and it's a fun experience. And for a CES experience,

like, that just doesn't involve getting attacked by robots in a booth. Like, oh, yeah, that was one of my better experiences this week when I went zero to 60 in like one second. Do you not think that some of this is a reflection of how the tech presses looked at tech, though? Sure.

Because I feel like, thanks to the way Elon Musk was covered, there were a lot of companies that could kind of get away with this shit. Well, they've gotten away with it in the sense that they were one of the companies that did one of these SPAC mergers and raised another billion dollars in that. So just define a SPAC merger for the listeners? A special purpose acquisition company.

There's kind of a long history of reverse mergers like this on the public markets, but essentially if you are an investor or some sort of business type, you could theoretically create a company that's just basically a holding cell for cash that's publicly traded, and you can basically vaguely state your intentions for, we want to invest in this market or that market, and here's our pot of money. We're going to go look for a company in that space to acquire and take them public.

And so maybe there's merit to that approach to things, but that whole process got really perverted in 2020 and 2021 where a lot of different kinds of companies, but especially electric vehicle companies, were getting taken public left and right well before they were ready to be a public company. And Faraday Future doesn't sound like it should have ever been taken out of the box. Well, I'll put it this way.

They went public in 2021. And within four to six months, their board of directors decided to launch an internal investigation into the founder and the people around him for basically more or less allegedly lying in the paperwork that they filed to go public. And then eventually the internal investigation led to him being removed from a particular role of the company, having people around him. pushed out of the company, and they referred it to the SEC, which is still actually actively investigating the company.

Rough few years for this guy. I mean, listen, he's here and not in a cell in China. Yeah, I was going to say. He lives in a mansion in Rancho Palis Verdes in Los Angeles, so he's done well for himself. Yeah, we're four days in, and I keep trying to find, I bring in new people I love the voices we get, and I keep being like, well, maybe this will be the person who found a real company. I'll say, I mentioned this before. I got to drive an electric boat this morning.

Okay. That was fun. They're a company called Ark Boats. Okay. And they're based out of Los Angeles. And it's a bunch of former SpaceX engineers. That kind of stuff gets thrown around a lot with like Tesla and SpaceX especially, where it's like, you know, this company's founded by SpaceX engineers.

It's like these guys are actually genuinely smart at coming up with interesting ideas and trying to apply them to products. and their whole thing. I mean, there's a lot of different electric boat companies that are trying to find a way to replace gas boats, whether that's in water taxis or more traditional sort of just like fishing boats. These guys are really going after a market that I think makes sense, which is just like boats for rich people. You know, like originally they had one that it was just really kind of like a fast fun boat on the water.

This one's more specifically like almost like a wakeboard boat, like Wake Sports. It's like Taylor made for that. And it costs a lot of money. I think it's in the high $100,000 marks. But it's the kind of boat that you're already talking about spending almost that much with a regular gas version. And I am. Yeah, of course. So they've been around for a couple years.

I think they got founded in 2021. But they're actually delivering these. They started delivering this boat. They hand-billed them in, or mostly hand-billed them in Los Angeles. they started delivering them a couple months ago to the first owners. So they're actually generating revenue. They have a bunch of investment. They have some celebrity investors.

I can't remember who they are at the top of my head. That always makes me wary. But they're also... You drove it, though. Yeah, so I got to drive it this morning. Where? Lake Mead. Oh.

That's the only bummer of the experience was it was at Lake Mead, which is like... It's like fairly there. So it's like, you know, if I removed myself from the experience, it was kind of depressing because you're like, oh, this isn't it fun to tool around in this electric boat in the lake that basically exists anymore? Just in time for the end of the inland freshwater experience here in the United States. Yeah, but, you know, if I was able to set that aside for a moment, it was a pretty fun experience. Other than just the terrible threat to humanity. Yeah, you know, I mean, like, I think it's pretty clear.

Which I'm somehow putting on the boat company, I apologize. No, but I, you know, I think it's interesting that some of these products, these vehicles, you know, for a long time, especially it shows like CES, we're sold as solutions to that larger problem of what we're doing to the planet. As opposed to the fact that corporations are causing it. Yeah. And now that's just, you know, that doesn't, that doesn't really get put front and center anymore because I think people, A, they don't want to have to, like, live up to that.

Yeah. Right. And B, like, because it doesn't seem like that's actually going to help us. So, like, you know, I don't begrudge them for not trying to, like, put that front and center, but it was hard to separate it from the experience, but, you know, it was a lot of fun. Yeah, that was something I was sort of struck by, I mean, I guess just in general, I think that assessment is correct in terms of how people are thinking about, like, you know, not individually, but I think that, like, broadly speaking, that there's like a turn

in the culture towards like, well, we're not going to win this one. And so either people are being hedonistic and, you know, like sort of being like, oh, whatever, let's see what happens if you put literally the worst guy of his generation in charge of the country again and see where that goes. But in this instance it's like I haven't seen as much like very few of the, even in the big tech spaces that I saw this morning at the convention center.

Like people don't, like energy efficiency kind of seems like I expected to see more of it. Like even just in terms of people wanting to save money on bills or whatever. And I didn't see a lot of that. Like I don't know if it's just like if it's considered to be like you know off the vibe of like people showing up and wanting to get

excited about stuff and about having new things or. Yeah. I mean I think a place like this sort of incentivizes the people who are coming up with the weirder, dumber, more boisterous displays anyways, and it's kind of hard to like, you know, I think that's where there actually is some value in these like weird shows. They do the first few evenings like CES unveiled or PEPCOM where it's basically just like a gauntlet of like 200 startups in a room that don't seem very properly vetted, but like that's where you're going to find like the place that, you know, the company of like three people that's like, we can

actually use AI to like save you nine bucks a month on your energy. bill or something like that because like they're not going to be able to afford a show floor booth. I also need to be clear, Pepcom is an enemy of better offline. They're an enemy of better offline fully because we applied and they said I've run a PR firm, I can't be allowed in. Enemy. Everything of Pepcom diseased. I stand shoulder to shoulder you with it.

Thank you. I'm shocked. They have standards. I was too. That's what was so offensive. Yeah. Like, do you know how bad it is? Like, I already get looked down on quite a lot for many reasons, many listeners.

there's no. For your dangerous views. My dangerous views. Yeah. My political opinions of I don't know anything. But also just like, oh my God, I'm not going to spend money on a pepcom part. No one should have to pay to go there. The booth people, sure, but not me. Why would you do that to me? And that is why they're an enemy of the show now. Nobody has to agree with this. Everyone's looking at me like very worried. Don't worry. This is my opinion, not anyone else's. Not to be like self-promotional, but it was one of the things that I really enjoyed about going to our conference TechCrunch Disrupt a couple months ago for the because I had never gone to it before until I worked here.

And I was so almost like low level nervous walking in for the first time because it looks a lot like Pepcom and CS unveiled. It's like people at like these little like cocktail tables with like a sign behind them. And that's a lot of them. Yeah. There's 200 that we're there. And I'm just so attuned to like the like hawker vibe of these events here where it's like guys just popping out at you.

like they recognize your name or you're out and they're like hey can I tell you about the new robot vacuum like or whatever and uh and it was such a different experience because at least there we were trying to like find companies these events it's like they're paying to be here and there's really not like a vetting process there's like some sorting you know that like each day it's going to get a little bit worse but other than that there's really not much of a bar for most of it so it was it was I didn't realize how much like the PEPCOMs and the CES unveiled had ruined me for like that experience until we went to our conversation we have like a assault style. Yeah. And Carissa gets attacked by humans and robots, apparently.

Literal assaults. Do you feel that they treat you differently as a woman at the show? The robots? Well, I mean, I don't know a guy who got attacked by one, so yes. But no, do you get treated differently here? You know, you're the first woman to get attacked by that robot. They didn't specify that, man. But no, do you get treated differently? You know, I think, I mean, I don't think. I don't think. that I do most of the time, but then you have those moments where somebody makes that comment, like, oh, you're the first lady to drive this. And you're like, why? So in, first what? Yeah.

Second of all, like, why would you feel need to just say that out loud? So, you know, I think there's always those little moments, especially when you come to CS and, you know, you end up interacting with a lot of people who are maybe either, like, not used to interacting with so many people all the time or are just so exhausted from having to give their same speech over and over again that people say weird things. I try not to focus on it. That's very generous of you. Edward had a similar statement when he had some weird stuff happen when we were down on the floor earlier. And I think it's like the, I guess you just have to assume that like at baseline these are the, it's like the least socially adept salespeople that you're likely to encounter. It's also just such an unnatural

environment because you have so many people from all over squeezed into, you know, these really small spaces and you're just trying to survive. At least that's, you know, that's how I feel. They never get to go outside. It seems really brutal. You know what it reminds me of? Actually, this is like, that kind of puts a finger on something that I've been like kind of trying to figure out.

I covered the dog show, the Westminster Kennel Club show many years ago. So jealous. And it was amazing. I would do it again for no money. It was the best experience I had. Basically, I mean, whatever. like isn't sports writing you know like i was able to sort of fake it at the time and and have it pretend to be you know enough but the people that so part of that is like a trade show you know that

like the dogs competing you can go up on the floor it's like literally the floor the garden where like the nix play and watch like some corgis run in a circle and i obviously had a great time doing that yeah it's like you know better than anything that happened at the garden for like until like jalen brunswick came to town but everything that happens below that is breeders trying to, like, basically get you to buy either their dog's seed or to, like, promote their breed, you know, that they're like, because it is like there's a eugenics light aspect to it where they're kind of just like my, like, I'm a Belgian Malinwas guy. Like, that's everything about Belgian Malinuaz is more important to me than anything else about anything else in my life. And yet those people, so that's a level, again, like a baseline level of weirdness, like somebody that's just like such a terror. career pervert that they can't be normal that other stuff.

And yet, like, there is something kind of like wholesome-ish about it, too, because, like, they're under this incredible duress. They're in, like, the room under the room, under the locker rooms at Madison Square Garden. It's like the room smells like dogs and people intensely. We're talking about the dog show still. The dog show still, yes. And it gets worse and worse.

And yet, like, they wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't some part of it. of them that was like strange in the way that made that seem like a good idea to them at some point. Right. And I guess that's probably true to us. I mean, I don't know that that's true of everybody here. But most people are not like that here. Everyone is like just like, I gotta fucking come here for the, I gotta stand there and be like, yeah, this dishwasher can wash in five seconds. Please don't count how many seconds. It's eight. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's also there's like a level of uncanniness. It's more fun when it's dogs as opposed to a robot. But also with a dog, I feel like there's not that much abstraction.

You know you're getting like a fine-ass terrier. Yeah. Like this Pekingese is really going to do it for you. You know what comes out theoretically. But with this, it's like you've got PR people. You've got like sales development people. You've got random people who are just like, I kind of know the product and it's theoretical anyway,

so it's like, I can't take that next step. If you need depth, I don't have it, man. And the guy who pays me will be very angry if he has to answer a question for reasons that I've chosen to ignore. Yeah, that's true. The dog version of that was basically, like, guys being like, oh, yeah, he loves ice cream. You know, which is like, that's fine. You know, like, that was actually the most intense question that I had about this dog. The best is the look of panic that comes over, you know, someone in the booth's face when you ask what you think is a relatively simple, straightforward question. And they just get this look of sheer panic. And they're like, well, I can find someone.

When I was walking around with Edward, who actually is a tech journalist, there was a, there was a, a moment where, like, there was one guy that was talking to us. He's sort of doing his sales thing. And then, like, everybody started asking, like, the good follow-ups that a tech journalist would ask, like, in terms of, like, do you have a prototype? Is it? Like, and it was exactly that. Like, this guy who kind of reminded me a little bit of like Mark McKinney from kids in the hall, like just kind of like a big goofy Canadian guy being like, well, that's a great question, I think. But there was a moment where he clearly was like, there were reach and grasp issues that were not going to be reconcilable. And he tapped himself out.

He was like, there's our product guy's eating pizza back there. Can you wait like 30 seconds? Because like, I'm not going to like lie to you and I can't tell you the truth. I don't know it. Which, you know, I found honorable. Most honest guy at C. Yes, obviously. I walked up to the person I told this story in the show already and I was like,

it was a thing claiming to be a new hope for autism and dyslexia. Yeah. Shocker, it wasn't. And I walked up and said, if you talked to the FDA about this and they just went, what's that? Which is what we call a good stuff. start and I had to walk away because I was too pissed off. But that happens a lot to me with

almost everything. It's just so weird having a show with so many, I keep coming back to this point. I've said it, I think every episode where it's like, it's so weird how much of this is fake, just completely made up. Even the expensive ones. Yeah. What the, I, even with cars, I didn't think you could fake that one. They got fucking wheels. They go forward and backwards and side to side, Tesla's sometimes a little too much. But it's like, you can fake cars. Hundreds of millions of dollars, it sounds like. Yeah, and across multiple companies.

I'm going insane. By the end of this trip, I'm going to... I think it's nice. And I guess they're doing this so they can get more investment capital. They just like keep doing the con? The car company in particular. Yeah, yeah, Faraday. I mean, they're trying to raise money from the Middle East now.

Again. Yeah. From the UAE. Oh, my God. I got a lot of money over there. I just I keep bringing people in and hoping they'll help and help redeem this show but they can't do it I keep coming back well the dog door there's a really good dog door yeah okay I talked to the cat door door company just to be clear and I said what was the training data you used for the company

and they said oh my cat and he was British so I gave him a little easier time they're simple people and but I wanted to be like you never seen those different shapes of cats alone and it just had this video of this cat with a bird in its mouth just shoving its face in again and again. And I just stood looking at it. And I think the guy worked out that I was already coming up with an annoying question and just turned his back to me. So it's honestly a pro move. No, no, that is expert offensive line work. But before we go, Carissa, how many CES is this for you? I think this is number seven. Nice. Sean? I think around the same, yeah. Yeah, is this better or worse, would you say?

worse in the sense that I see less fewer things that are really cool and interesting and excite me and that might also just be because I'm more jaded now from having done this seven times it's their job to impress you but better because I also get a lot less stressed out when I first started coming to CES you know I used to show up and be so stressed out and make too many appointments and spend the whole week running around and forgetting to eat and you know now I feel like I can maybe not relax is not the right word but I can you know have a I don't get too too worried about it anymore sure as I think that's a really repeatable experience for the people who do it a lot where you start to realize you realize you can let go of what

seems important but I do think it tracks with there being maybe less interesting stuff because we're also just in this weird it's like a a moment where so many people have started over the line with the AI stuff. And people feel like, oh, I better do it too, regardless of the product. So I don't know. In that sense, I feel like it's worse. But better in that I know how to like hack the experience more because I... More efficient.

I got... Well, I came here with goals and I like accomplished some of those goals. But those goals are not about like finding a lot of new technology. It's like, I know people are going to be here who I need to get information out of. Right. Or build a relationship with. and it's like that's more of what I'm after although you can't separate yourself from all the other stuff so

so I will now get information from you where can people find you Sean I'm I'm at TechCrunch go to TechRunch.com it's a great website I'm on Blue Sky Sean Kane Carissa I'm at Engadgett and social media blue sky threads still technically have an account on X the everything app yes of course You just Google my name, you'll find. Okay.

And David? Right for Defector.com. I have the podcast. There is the distraction. I have a podcast about Hallmark movies called It's Christmas Town. It did the alternating thing like we discussed earlier. I'm still putting it in everything. And yeah, David J. Roth at B-Sky, or dot B-sky.

Or dot B-sky. Dot B-Sky. dot social. My name's Adam 38 years old, and I just started a podcast called Better Offline. It's paid for by the bloody ads that follow this. So can you please click them this time? I'm going to lose the podcast. If I'm not careful, so please look at the ads. I need this.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group?

The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from, from Harvard. You only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard herds, right?

That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

You love me. I need some. jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, IHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-844-Eyehart. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness,

professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions, to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it.

An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeke. The ability to show gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.

He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapulted Jacob in the world, to an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.

When Jacob met Levant this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you. know is somebody coming after me. Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Welcome back to the show. It's me, Ed Zichron. You're listening to Better Offline. You're still within the same episode. Why am I reintroducing you? You don't need this. But more importantly, I'm joined by Rob Pagoraro.

Hello. Old School Dogs of Freelance Tech Journalism. I'm feeling very old after. five days here for CES. Yeah, this place age. It's the beach that makes you old of tech. So what are you writing for right now? PCMag, fast company, wirecutter,

various other publications as they come up. How many CES is? This is the 27th for me. No. That's not... Hell, yeah. How many they had? I see 98 onwards.

So the only one I did not attend in person didn't happen in person, in person, 2021. And at the start of that, I realized, yeah, my kid has never seen me that week of January, either as my wife. because we started dating in 1999.

So was it always called CES? It was originally the Consumer Electronics Show, then it was the International CES, now it's just CES. It's like AARP. It doesn't stand for anything anymore. Right. That's interesting.

Yeah, we had the debate a day or two ago. Honestly, at this point, I have no idea what day it is. Let's be honest, fellas. Four, five. Flores day. It's a day. But we, no one really knew. It's definitely a week day.

Yeah. That seems clear. Now, we're at the point in the week, and you will know this from your immense experience, the CES begins to just crackle. Like, everyone left over on the Thursday is just like, I just want to see my family again. Yes, yes. But also traffic starts getting a little bit better. Right. The line to get lunch or a cup of coffee or a beer or whatever.

It's not as bad as it was two days ago. Right. Well, have you had a good show? Yes, I have. Is anything fun or enjoyable? Yeah. You know, uh, to me, the most interesting transformation of CS,

I've seen it for the years, how first it started becoming a car show to the extent that they've basically killed off the January, Chicago, North American International Auto Show, although Chicago weather in January may have had some factor in that too. Right. But then it's become all these other aspects of it. So now you have the West Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center where you have like giant earth-moving machinery from Caterpillar.

Right. John Deere's got a lineup of agricultural and construction machinery. You have boat makers. Right. You've got Oshkosh showing off a battery electric garbage truck and the cute little duck bill truck they're building for the U.S. Postal Service. Right. Oh, they have that here? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like my dream to see that truck because I feel like they're going to spike the project. I'm a little worried about, yes, my new neighbor coming to Washington, D.C.

They're super behind on it, right? Or is it there's another company that was screened up worse? No, there are times that the Wall Street Journal said, yeah, they've shipped way fewer than they should have. Yeah, they say they're delivering in volume now, and I'd like to see them because, yeah, the letter carriers of my neighborhood are using these Carter administration vintage. The ones without AC. Yeah, and I'm like, every time I see what I'm like, is the wheel going to fall off while I'm looking at it? Yeah, it's miraculous that they're still upright. It's like the pictures you see from Havana where they're just like kept a second.

Studebaker going for 60 years. We're actually going to sell them to the Cubans next. I'm surprised we haven't threatened to take over there at this point. Don't give any money an idea. I think they've already had this. We're going to do a great deal. It doesn't even feel free. We're going to make it again.

We hate doing it. I hate doing the voice now. Yeah, the voice is less enjoyable due to the consequences. But have you enjoyed any? Is there something you've seen that actually felt good? I'm really desperate at this point. Everyone I talk to is just like, well, I saw something that worked. Well, yeah, so there's a lot of junk.

There's a lot of AI slop out there. So I stopped by Amazon's booth. They have this feature where you can have your Fire TV show art on the wall. Samsung did that with The Frame. I've always wanted to put stuff on my wall that look good. That's a good idea. I hear you can go to stores that sell exactly that stuff. That sounds implausible.

Anyway. So you can ask the Fire TV to do some art via generative AI. Oh. And so, well, okay, I'm going to be a nerd about this. I said, draw a New Glen, rocket lifting off from Cape Canaveral in Florida. And the first time I'd heard nuclear rocket, and then it drew this generic rocket, and like, okay, at least it's not a rocket with a reactor, cooling tower attached to whatever.

Then I said, it's slower, and it's still a generic rocket. I thought, shouldn't Amazon's AI know about its founder's space company? These things don't know anything? Yeah, people are throwing AI into anything and everything. So see, now I'm just complaining about stuff. Yeah, just bad. I'm just going to stick with that for a little while. That's fine.

Delta had this keynote. So this is a mix of good and bad. The production values were nuts. I'd never been to this fear before. Right. And so they had this thing at the start where it's the screen that envelopes you, goes all around and above and around you. Right.

It's a sort of cockpit perspective of taking off down the runway. That's kind of cool. Seeing it speed at you, the subwarfers and the seats rumble, as if you know you're like Shrek 40 and they've got these fans blowing wind faster and faster exactly like Shrek 40 yeah yeah and so they have the whole smell of vision feature which I didn't actually know about going on

man yeah I don't want to smoke part you know the guy next to you on the plane you can smell the awful lasagna that they're serving on over the plane that's good comfort plane food Uber's CEO showed up because they're doing a partnership,

and he had a sort of joke delivery of two hazelnut lattes. And so they had the smell of it. It actually smelled like a good hazelnut or caramel latte. And that guy got paid $3.00. Probably, yes. And the last part was maybe they wouldn't do this now. It was fireworks bursting over downtown L.A. And the air filled with the sort of smell of gunpowder like you would have if it were actual fireworks.

Yeah, they might. One of those poorly timed ones by accident. It seemed like a great idea two weeks ago. Yeah. So, great stagecraft. It was really neat. But then the announcement, they had this Delta concierge, which will be this Gen A.I.

Assistant in the Flight Delta App. We've heard a little bit about this, but I love specifics. Yeah, so I'm an half-geek. I fly a lot. Nice. I'm usually United being based in D.C. And they're talking about things like it will suggest alternate ways to get to the airport.

Your best path through it. I thought, is that really AI? Because, like, United Zapp will say, you can use TSA pre. Don't forget the United Club is here. I was doing things like it will book an Uber for you when you land,

which in the example was a woman taking a business class flight to Tokyo. Like, take the train, man. It's Japan. What are you doing? Take the butt, like, but also, you can also just do this by using your finger. Right, yeah.

And so all these sort of contrived examples. And of course, obviously, you can't talk about AI and Airlines, out. Air Canada had a chat bot which made up a customer service policy. Which wasn't even GPT,

by the way. It wasn't even generally who's eligible. Oh no, I've been over this one because people really want to make this one. No, it's going to be shit in the future, not in the past.

Yeah, and so I'm like, there's lots of ways this could go bad and the actual examples seem kind of, you know, are you sure this isn't just software? But also not that exciting or useful? Yeah, you know, I'm like, I'm thinking areas where I could use help

AI would be useful if when like your flight gets canceled. Or if you were trying to fly here on Monday when there was a snowstorm in DC, evaluate my options. What's the best chances of me getting here? Yeah, like flighty, which is one of the best apps of all time. Flighty is just what if an air, a flight tracking piece of software worked. It will tell you, it will tell you usually more reliably whether your flight is being moved or canceled. But Delta appears to have come up with a new idea.

which is less useful. Yeah, you know, they're talking about they're going to have YouTube clips curated in the Seaback Entertainment. Yeah, that's fine. I never know what I want to watch on YouTube. You know, the Uber partnership. A lot of it was just a whole lot of stagecraft. And apparently it didn't go over well on the YouTube stream. In the audience, it was a lot of Delta employees.

So it was a big love fest for all the Delta employees. So I guess really do like their CEO, which you cannot count on in the airline industry. Right. or they were probably worried to not like me. I don't know. I don't spend enough time on the airline. Was he a real showman? You guys are?

At Bastion, he's, he's, he's not enough. He's not like a natural ad it, but he didn't seem like overwhelmed or, you know, like I've seen a lot of Muskev keynotes. Not what you want? No. Well, even less these days. Yes, well, that's true.

Yeah, just form and content being separated in this case. Right. Yes, form, content, substance style, etc. What was Lenny Kravitz like? It was good. Like I'd not seen it play before. Did he play circus? It's the other song I know by him.

Yeah, no. It started out with Are You Gonna Go My Way? And of course, the closing song was Fly Away. Got to do that. How many songs did he play? Was it like a 45 minutes? It was like, you know, a brief set. You got a decent set.

You got like a festival set. I mean, I was glad it was that short because they did have to go on to the next step. And you were in the pit? Now, the press seats were in like the 200 level. Those are actually really good, though. I watched the NHL draft there, and it was really cool. But the sphere is objectively cool. Yeah, so the parts of CS have enjoyed the most are the unusual experiences.

The sphere, Sunday afternoon, I had a ride in a Zook's Robo Taxi. How was that? Pretty cool. Very smooth in general. It gets a little skittish around traffic cones, and we had this part at the end, which there were a lot because you all apparently never stop repaving or rebuilding the streets. Yeah, yeah, but constant state of chaos here. Yeah, and so this one road, there was a lane, a row of traffic cones, a lane, another row of traffic cones, car drives between the two of them and stops as if it's just been like, uh, now what?

Yeah, this seems like you got the actual robotaxie experience. Yeah, and so then apparently there's some sort of overseer who could say, you can back up. And so for people who haven't seen this, this is a pure robo taxi. It's not a converted car or anything. Like Waymo is like a jaguar with a wheel. So it's just two seats on each side facing each other. There's no front or back end. There's an engine over the motor.

That's kind of cool. Over both sets of wheels, right? Yeah. And so it can reverse front end becomes the back end, whatever. We backed up when into another lane. It was fine. Right. And we had a couple of moments where people looked at it.

You know, if you're in a robo taxi, there are these rock star moments where people are like, is that what I think it is? Right. So this guy of Tesla starts doing video of us at a stoplight, mind you, not driving. This couple on a Jeep were like waving high, and they were rolling down in the window, but you can't open the window on a zoo. Should have banged on the side. So, help me. You could have held up a side. You just like, thumbs up.

Can't get out. Yes. And Monday afternoon, I took a little field trip to Lake Mead. Right. This company called Arc. The electric boat, Sean O'Kand just told us about. Battery Electric. Yeah.

And that thing hauls ass. That's cool. Yeah. And apparently I'm not a boat guy. I like other people's boats. Right. I had not looked up winterization checklists for boats. You don't want to do that.

It's a whole lot of work if you have a gas engine. And this is why I don't have a boat. Well, also this thing is like it will cost $258,000, I think. Only? Yeah. I don't know what boats cost. I don't. My regular series of boats.

I prefer boat as a service where somebody else you know has it. That was quite literally a 2013 era startup called Boatbound, I believe. Sure, why not sounds plausible. No, it actually existed. Probably for the end. Anyway, but it sounds like the fast electric boat was fun. Yeah, and, you know, the whole way we're finding ways to electrify all these different modes of transit. That's good.

Yeah. That's good and useful stuff. How do you charge that thing, though? Same, it's actually the same kind of plug on most non-Tesley EVs. The J1772 slow charging. How does that do with water? It's all sealed. So the whole thing, yeah, the batteries in a sealed compartment.

The plug itself is at like the top of the hole. You step over at boarding. Right. And the whole model is this is something built to tow like water skiers. Right. People are like surfing on the wake. So you don't spend overnight with it. You do like four to six hours.

Everyone is tired, needs a nap, dock it, plug it in. And slow charging is overnight. It's fine. Right. But it worked, though. Yes. Yeah. And also, like, just pulling out in the no wake zone on the lake, like, really quiet.

And there's no smell of gasoline, like regular boats. They make a certain amount of noise. Yeah, it's not an efficient engine. Yeah. So Ed, David, you went to the Venetian Expo and you went down to the Eureka zone. Yes. Real toilet. I was there earlier today.

What did you fellas see? What wonders? Did you... I thought it would be weirder than it was. It really is disappointing. I've seen weirder stuff there. Yeah, that was prepared to go down there and it was just going to be like a hairdriar that's been trained to scream at you. You know, it's like nonsense tech sold to you by maniacs.

Yeah. Let me look through my nose to see if anything sort of jumped out of me. I think the biggest challenge for us, and this is maybe my sense of direction issue, is just finding stuff that there's multiple food courts and then there's a lot of like country type zones. Yes. The French tech one is the single biggest occupant of space. Yeah. Yeah, it was, I mean, like some of the stuff I saw was like boring but useful.

There was some French startup. They make a little pod you stick on the floor of a garage to tell you, is this an ice car or an EV. Has the EV been there too long? And ICE means internal internal combustion, yeah. Which, you know, boring but useful. Yeah. Probably need that. Yeah. But

nothing really weird and fun. It was weird. So I had, I don't try to gas you up here on the podcast, Edward, but guess him up. As an actual journalist, watching you ask good questions of people that were, we were sort of wandering around the, like, accessibility tech area. And that stuff is like, kind of

hard to parse in some ways because it's like it seems useful to me i don't have it's well meaning limited mobility right and it does have that sort of veneer of it and yet you were able to and i don't i don't want to make you like break down your own tape here like it's the john gruden's quarterback club but well i think there's one major reason why that would well right but the in this case it's like you asked a series of questions about that uh the like bluetooth earpiece thing that i found like really illuminating in terms of like how this stuff gets sold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, there's a section of the area that was for digital health and some of it was for people who are unable to use their arms and so you want to give them some tech that

they can put in their ear or somewhere close enough to the jaw so that when they clench, that can be assistive. Right. To be used in place of their arms. When we first approached one of the boots, the guy was pitching it as some, um, some, you know, something that would be useful immediately in retail. Let's say you're at like a fast food restaurant or at some sort of store and you are unable to use your hands because you're doing another task. Right.

You can, you know, clench your jaw or use it in a certain way. And he was talking about how, you know, these firms love their product because they are able to have the workers, you know, do multiple tasks at once. Perfect. And then we talk to the product guy and there's actually, there's nothing. There's no real product. It's in development. And the core concern is accessibility, which makes sense. It is people who are not able-bodied, and that all this other stuff is proposed.

It feels as if a way to attract investment so that they can do the core thing that they actually want to do, which is... One would hope. Yeah. I would hope so. Or it could be reversed, which is that you are developing something that is clear, concrete, and has a definite use case. But then pitching investors, the much more speculative and spurious, so that you can scale up and build and never really eventually land there

but keep pulling in funds, interest. I feel bad for the investors now. That sounds terrible. Also, what was interesting to me about that was like tonally, and we were talking about this, the difference in the approach between like the marketing guy who like kind of knew some stuff but was mostly just like a goofball Canadian dude.

And then the product guy who was more or less able to be, like not only in the sense that one guy is like, we've already got a prominent fast food place that's like ready to place an order so like act now. And then the other dude was just sort of once you got into the like as you were saying like for the accessibility stuff

like it more or less makes sense. Yeah. Like there's the things that you'd be doing with it are you know which is basically it's like a very small facial gesture that can do different stuff. What are the things you actually do? Like what are the commands you're making?

So in conjunction with moving your hand or maybe tilting it with some sort of micro expressions or small gestures. With clenching your jaw, you'd be able to move cursors, click. You know, very simple commands. But the way that the marketing guy was talking about, it was as if you would be able to immediately,

as someone's making an order, parse through a menu or a screen faster than you could tactilely. And then, like, make change. Yeah. Right. And so the product guy was basically, like, the way that he explained it, which I thought was, like, pretty honest.

It was like, you know, so it's like building, like a sort of a user interface and like theoretically you could get really complex with it. You know that it could all of these could be different applications but at some point you're making a lot of expressions and you're like moving your nose very slightly because you're basically like scrolling

through this long series of options so that you can select that this person is trying to get like a four piece box. Right. Yeah. Right. And like he you know obviously he was like professional he wasn't like that's a stupid use for this technology but it was the sort of thing where you could see how

that is not just like sort of harder and like further down the line it's also like it's hard to make something that is designed to be one thing, do something else like theoretically it could happen. It sounds like it isn't designed for anything because it doesn't exist.

Yeah. That's the other bit. It doesn't sound like they've tried it. Like they didn't even have a prototype. When we talked about it, they said they were in late stage prototype development with partners and tried to press on what that meant. Doesn't seem like they can cover a multitude.

Yeah. Is there like any transitive state of superposition? Oh, okay. You're the PR guy. Yeah. No, no. So speaking to the,

I can actually speak to this. Nothing exists. In my opinion, this is my professional opinion, not having seen it. But anytime, and I don't work with, never work with clients like this,

I think the time I stopped was in like 2014 when I had my first client that just had something completely fucking made up. And like the, they had a thing, like a nutrition thing.

as vague as possible. And it's set on fire during a demo, which is traditionally not a great nutrition thing. I guess if you're eating something. Nevertheless, that was there,

I'm like, I need to up the quality control. Because if they're saying, yeah, late stage prototype development, that phrase has been through a few people, none of them lawyers.

Yeah. Because the lawyer would be like, don't say, don't say, don't say. It's kind of a lot of words when you said, it is sort of taken

a long time for you to say that you don't have a thing. Yeah. Like, there's nothing to you. use. And if they're saying, if they had the way around that professionally is you actually have a video of someone using it and they go, well, we'll do rendering. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's none of that. All that was was, it felt like there was an earpiece that someone had, but there

were no efforts or, you know, attempt to demonstrate it. And purely, sort of like the x-ray blue outline of a body, illustrations, illuminating what muscle groups would be used when clenching. your jaw, which is... These also feel like very different use cases, though, because the experience of, I imagine, not having arms, like not actually being able to move one's body, and the things

you would need to do as a result are vastly different to someone who just doesn't have their hands free. On top of that, people have different sized faces. Yeah, we talked about this a bit where it's like, you know, what you would need to do to be able to, with

micro-expressions, muscles, whatever, outpace tactile manipulation or do it fast enough where you could do it and have it as a secondary task. I mean, we're getting into like sci-fi territory at that point because you need to be able to, what, create some sort of design that, you know, it would distinguish between all these gestures,

be able to immediately and reliably 100% of the time get them to get to there and be able to internally manipulate them with... Because this is also a non-invasive alternative to brain implant. So it has to somehow create a mental schema that's one-to-one matching with gestures, movements. You know, we're getting into territory where each step is less and less feasible or even constructed. Did they say how they receive the signals? Would it be...

What did they say? EMGs. It was EMGs, which is, I don't remember what that stood for. it honestly it seemed legit enough to me again as a simpleton I also invested $300 million I mean we all will but the

it was like one of those things where like more or less the technology seemed to make sense the usage didn't seem to make sense like I believe that there is probably like high level engineering that could make something like this work I don't think that there's anything

that's like gonna make it work for Wendy's you know but that was Also one example I think of there, I've seen, I think, two different companies doing some kind of powered exoskeleton. And it is it will help you hike. Oh, I want the robot suit. Like I want to be strong. My thought is if you can do that.

And so it works naturally with you, not like against you. You know, older people who might have, be the risk of falling. Which that's, one thing I've learned from having, you know, ask anyone who's got older relatives, gravity can kind of be terrible for older people. Yeah. That's why we're going to retire to a space station. I can afford it by then. But yeah, it's interesting also how you'd market it. Because I did see those, that was yesterday.

I saw that. And it was definitely sort of like a lifestyle enhancer. Like the way that they were pitching it was being like, you know, you're going to be able to hike like you never hiked before. You get the tech bro who wants to be like Iron Man. Right. I'm trying to. Make that money and use it to then, you know, productize it for a larger market.

Yeah. And in this case, it was like the idea that you had to imagine the larger market because, I guess of like how comparatively unglomerous to investors the actual market would be. Pivot. Yeah. So Rob, would you say this is a more bullshit or less bullshit? Yeah. Hmm. I might say slightly less. Like one thing I've seen less of, uh, and this is a piece I still need to do for PC Meg. AK television. You go back like four years ago or six years, everyone was like, well, it's going to be the next 4K. I'm like, actually it's the next 3D. And 4K is yet to be the next 4K as well. It's become a sort of Pyrrhic victory for the industry.

They got it adopted. It's in any set you'd buy bigger than like 42 inches. But because everybody's doing it, there's no profit margin left, which was the problem it was supposed to solve. Right. But yeah, A.K., Samsung is still trying to make it happen. No one else is. Right.

And I'm like, that's great. The industry realized no one actually wants to buy this. So they found a new thing that no one wanted to buy it? You know, yeah, like. AI. Just add AI as a label. And like what Delta is doing with the concierge that may be just software. I just...

You know, your AK TVs now have AI upscaling instead of just upscaling. No, they were doing that last year. They absolutely were doing that. If they're trying to sell that shite again... Is there a distinction between those two things? Well, 8K is actually 8K resolution versus upscaling, which is effectively filling in the freight... Which you need because there's nothing to watch an AK.

Well, you can't even watch terrestrial television. television in 4K. So in theory, you can't. There's a standard called next gen, but that's not going to be doable until stations take that. Note, my first CES was the introduction of digital TV in 1998. Jeez. That's, you all can't see the gray hairs on my head. Most of which your CES is fault. Why would you watch something in 4K? I would watch a football game. I don't, if it's a big enough screen, if it's a big enough screen, I don't, if it's a big enough screen, I don't, if it's a big enough screen, I don't, I was a skeptic for a long time. The monitor on my Mac at home is a 4K screen. And yeah, for all mankind,

is pretty great at that level. And sport, like baseball especially with very precise placement, but past that point, really. Yeah, now there's no reason for 8K and, you know, maybe, I guess the sphere, I guess, has 16K screens on the wall. But that's the definition of an edge case. Yeah.

If your case is a $2 billion building in Vegas, maybe that's not a mass market. Also, to your point on the watching things of 4K things. Like, I think, so we're also current on for all mankind. Last two seasons

are pretty preposterous, but it's like, you know, it's guys in strong seats. I've noticed that, and this is the case with a lot of the Netflix stuff, which they make them shoot on 4K cameras, right?

I've also never seen this show, too, yeah, it's a really goofy show. It's like a space soap opera, but a lot of the issues, I like it, I like it too. So the effects look incredible. The scenes of people talking in rooms often look like a telenovela to me.

Like, they're overly sharp. Yeah. And that's like an issue with a lot of Netflix stuff too because they shoot in 4K and then they have to mush it down to get it through your pipes and then it expands again on your TV and that's why everything on Netflix kind of looks like you're watching it on your phone even though you're watching it on your TV I think

this is like my understanding of it. But I do think that there's like, as much as it would be cool to like watch sports like that and I do think it's true. Like I have my mind blown by like how good a lot of the TV displays were in the big, you know, TV manufactured things that I looked at this morning and yet it's like

you do kind of at some point like bump up against the like necessity question on any of this stuff like the whole Apple definition of a retina display like can you no longer see the constituent pixels which is absolutely a thing in TVs

and so yeah you need such a huge screen for AK to be discernibly better and so yes content for it like no there's nothing the odds of that EFA in Berlin I want to say like two years ago. And that's, what is IFA?

Just for the... It's the, basically the European version of CES. Okay. It originally stood for German for international radio show. I don't speak German, but I'm talking like... International Fonkastelung. Now they say it's innovation for all. Well, I do, and that was flawless.

Okay, good. I don't. Okay. And that EFA has gone on from like 20, 23, except for a few years in the 40s I don't like to talk about. And so Samsung, had commissioned an AK version of the series Dost Boot. Okay.

And that's like literally the only time I've seen a TV vendor gets you something to watch in AK. And that shows like... The movie's like four and a half. Isn't that very... I didn't even know they made a series out of the movie. Oh, sorry, the series. Yeah, yeah.

I know the movies very long. I have watched the movie. And it was in an old school theater in D.C. and Connecticut Avenue. Yeah, the movie's from like 1985, too. Yeah, I feel like watching that in 8K would feel like you were on LSD. Yeah, over-processed. Yeah, like, you're so much closer to Juergen Prunk now than you really need to be.

Juergen Prunk. We love Juergen Prong. We love Juergen Prong. He's a good actor. So let's bring this to an end. Rob, where can people find you? You can find me at PCmag.com, mass company, dot com. My website is Rob Pecorrera.com.

I am on Blue Sky at the exact same handle. Lovely. Does on Blue Sky. Everyone has the website. Mr. Rangway, so. Newsletter, the techbubble. Substack.com. podcast, this machine kills, and on X-D-Everthing site

and Blue Sky, Big Black Jacobin. I'm right for Defector.com. The podcast I do there is the distraction and I am David J. Roth dot B-S-K-Y dot social on Blue Sky. So you're at the end of day four of the CES coverage.

We are absolutely high energy. All of us are peaking out. More awake than we've ever been. I'm going to take these boys out for burgers. after this. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. Two more days. You've got another double tomorrow, another two pairs, another two pairs. Jesus Christ, 90 minutes each, two episodes tomorrow. And then a finale on Saturday. Jesus Christ, man, it's not that bad.

No, I am, I have not been this tired for God knows how long. Where do you get to be my age? I'm brimming with life and I'm like a decade older than you. Full of the spirit of CES, of John CES, the fan. founder, the Christian cult leader. He gave us so much. At the first CES who did a sacrifice, and that's why the show is still around. Yep, that's facts.

Anyway, I'm Ed Zichron. Thank you for listening. You've really indulged me this week. More to come tomorrow. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matt Rosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattersowski.com.

M-A-T-O-S-K-I.com. You can email me at EZ at betteroffline.com or visit betteroffline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat. Where's Your Ed?at to visit the Discord and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Coolzone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Life is full of hurdles, so how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner. of IHart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know.

Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.