Better Offline - Everything Is Advertising with Ryan Barwick

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Ed Zitron is joined in-studio by Ryan Barwick of Marketing Brew to talk about how the entire tech ecosystem is controlled by ads - and whether companies like OpenAI and Perplexity can hope to plug the gaps in their leaky revenue models. Follow Ryan:  https://x.com/Ryanbarwick https://www.marketingbrew.com/contributor/ryan-barwick --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/  Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/edzitron.com https://www.threads.net/@edzitronSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multimillion dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

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I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also Media. Hello and welcome to BetRofline. I'm the single most. punished individual alive. My name's Ed Zittran. I'm your host. Today I'm joined by Ryan Barwick of Morning Brew and Marketing Brew specifically, of course. Ryan, thank you for joining me.

Hey, man. What's up? How's it going? We are in the beautiful New York studios of IHeartRadia. Daniel Goodman, of course, producing live with us, live to tape, of course. And Ryan's here to talk to me about advertising. And we're going to start somewhere fairly obvious, which is, what is the kind of status of the Google ads antitrust case? Where are we at? Yeah, I spent, in September, I spent two weeks in Alexandria, Virginia. Sexy Alexandria, Virginia, sitting on a wooden bench, listening to hours and hours of economists explaining auction bidding. I know you're very jealous of that. This is what we'll listen to this love.

No, but seriously, actually, you explain it on. Yeah, no, no, I mean, it was, I got a nosebleed halfway through it because it was at times very dull, but also very exciting. Essentially, the DOJ is arguing that Google doesn't just have a monopoly on digital advertising, but they own the entire supply chain, right? So Google owns the software that publishers use, like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, to run ads on their website and to monetize their content. Google also owns or has a monopoly on the software that advertisers are using to reach those audiences on the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.

And in between those two pieces of software, there's this auction software. There's a bidding platform. And Google also owns that, right? So they own every piece of, the DOJ is alleging, that they own every piece of the supply chain. And they really, I mean, at one point, the DOJ said Google sees, I think,

nine out of every 10 digital transaction. Hmm. So that's pretty large, right? That's a lot of them. That's pretty big. And it was fascinating. Over the course of two weeks, I was only there for two weeks, I believe it went on for a little bit more than three. We kind of got a history of ad tech, which is this incredibly complex, incredibly dense, incredibly dorky industry to just kind of explain how the internet makes money.

And Google has been on the receiving end of a lot of those advertising dollars, of those ad budgets. And it's fascinating. So we had the Monday before Thanksgiving, we had closing arguments, which is where the DOJ and Google get to make their final stand before the judge and make their arguments. The DOJ, again, just kind of pointed to Google's size. And that they own every single part of the stack. Right. Or certainly the most successful parts of the stack. And then Google essentially countered by saying, look, we're really good at what we do.

And it's hard to argue with them in this sense that. they have so much data that they can monetize these things really efficiently. Because they see so much, they can get really good at advertising. But it feels like the argument there would be, well, you have all this data from the monopolies you're doing. So I'm guessing that's kind of how the DOJ came in it. Yeah, yes. And it was interesting. On the first day, the DOJ said, you have all of these advertisers, but we never really delved into why they have so many advertisers. YouTube was almost never mentioned during the case. Really?

Gmail, Chrome, right? Obviously, there's a much sexier trial that is still ongoing. Well, has already reached... It's entering the remedy phase. Yeah, has already reached its conclusion. The real heads were at the AT-Tech trial, I like to say. The real dorks were at the much more complex and boring trial. So that wasn't really necessarily touched on.

And, again, it will be really interesting. One thing that I kind of took away from the trial, And this is called like, it's a rocket docket. So it happens really quickly. We could find out before Christmas or even in early January what decision the judge has reached. But one thing that I really took away from it is that the DOJ was basically pointing out issues or decisions Google made to maintain a monopoly, things that had happened 10 years ago, things that had happened 12 years ago in some instances. So Google does something. then the industry has to respond, and then Google does another thing.

Can you give an example? Well, there are these, you know, strategies. One was called, like, last look, where Google would get the last look at a bid between an advertiser and a publisher. Jason, Jason Clinton brought that up on a preview, like the idea that, like, right at the end they go, and we can just bid under them.

Right, exactly. So then Google would do that, and then the industry would try to work around that. And ultimately, things have, have reached kind of a, I don't know if copacetic is the correct term, things have kind of leveled out there, especially as advertisers are more drawn to, like, streaming platforms, or more drawn to a platform like a TikTok or Twitter social media platforms. You know, banner ads are kind of, like, I think among most buyers are kind of like the least

sexy version of advertising. I think the common frame, like, can you name any banner ad you've ever seen? only that McDonald's one from like 20 years ago where it said I'd hit that okay there we go that was a great ad I've never fucked a burger but I thought about it for at least a second so but never let me correct and it's my question is is that kind of advertising dying is banna traditional that kind of media dying is it being replaced or is it just cheaper and shittier well you would hope it doesn't die because that is the kind of advertising that a lot of publishers

asking because I wanted it to happen. Right. That a lot of publishers use, right? And obviously, publishers have shifted to try to get subscriptions. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying it's dying, but budgets are definitely shifted. And in the same way that linear television is losing viewers every year and people are adopting like streaming platforms. Yeah, it's just, it's not as interesting. It's not as sexy. And I do not know to kind of tie the knot here.

I don't know what kind of remedy might solve that. Like if Google's forced to sell, it's auction software. It's exchange. What does that do? Like double-click. Just they finally, after buying it, they just sell it again. Couldn't they sell access to the data? Because that's kind of what they're suggesting with the search remedies.

Listeners, if you didn't know, part of the suggested remedies from the government have been selling Chrome, which I'm going to there on. But they're saying that they would allow other search engines to access Google's data dump. Now, could a similar thing happen with it? this, but it... Yeah, I don't really know. Like, they're, the bit streams here, it's so complex. There's so many players involved. Right.

I don't entirely know what that would look like. And I think that's part of the, I'm sure Google's lawyers and the DOJ's lawyers are, are wrestling over this kind of stuff. But you definitely got the sense, at least from the, the, however many reporters were there, that this stuff is so weedy and so complex that I don't know how much much of it is ultimately. I don't know what kind of remedies ultimately alleviate the concerns in the industry. Certainly, many people feel like Google is a monopoly, but I'm not entirely sure where else they would take their dollar. But again, part of that is because Google isn't a monopoly. Yeah,

because there's never been another option. Kind of makes me think of Facebook as well, because I know that there's, have they done an antitrust case against them? I forget. But I know the argument is that they have a monopoly over social media, which is true. But breaking up these companies seems, I want them to do it, they need to do it, but I just have no idea how they could possibly. Like, they're so deeply embedded in every corner of every part of the internet at this point. I just don't know how practical that would be. Yeah, it was interesting. Google brought up, on the last day of the trial, they brought up Microsoft as its competitor. Look, Microsoft has Xbox. That's inventory that Google doesn't have access to. That's an advantage Microsoft

has over Google. I don't think I've ever met a media buyer that has ever said, well, that Xbox inventory really makes a difference. Yeah, we've got to make sure we're on X. Right, right. So like, or the Microsoft has made a lot of in rows with retailers, for example.

Haven't Microsoft been trying to do ads for years and never really made it? Well, they make it like a billion from Bing. Yeah, well, they have a very successful business around it, but it's certainly not, you know, a juggernaut, like a Google or an Amazon. And for context, listeners, I think what, a billion in revenue compared to several hundred billion from ads that Google makes?

40 billion a quarter. Jesus Christ. This fucking company. But there was one story I did want to talk to you about that you wrote back in September that we've talked about a few times. This Facebook ad story, because I actually think that this may be a story that gets bigger and bigger. But you wrote this story about how you talked to a few ad buyers with Facebook and that Facebook's ads platform is kind of broken. Can you go into that a bit? Yeah, this is something I noticed on Twitter, or I guess we call it X now.

I don't. He dead names trans people. I'm dead naming Twitter. There you go. Essentially buyers were saying, hey, so there are advertisers, but advertisers aren't pulling the levers. Usually advertisers go to ad agencies and the ad agencies. I don't know if your audience cares necessarily about that delineation.

But I saw a bunch of buyers saying, hey, you know, we had $10,000 disappear. We put it into meta and it poof, it disappeared. It's gone. We don't know what happened to it. And, you know, one guy saying that, it's like, okay, maybe that is a bug. But then when you talk to eight media buyers, and they all say since roughly January that the platform has become really wonky, that there are a lot of hurdles to overcome. Wonky how? Bugs, essentially.

Like, again, someone in ad tech described these advertising platforms, like a Google, like we were talking about, or a meta, describe them that like I shouldn't think about them as platforms I should think about them as ATMs that like you put money in these machines and then maybe money will come out or at least you'll get a metric that tells you you made a metric which only they have right exactly that they have decided for you and they are the ultimate auditor as well right yeah they're essentially the buyers would say that these companies operate black boxes right that you can't really audit but the black boxes do sell do hickies and widgets right like people do buy stuff on Instagram and on Google and even on TikTok, basically. But anyway, I ended up talking to several buyers. They were saying that, you know, again, they would create a budget and then out of nowhere, I want to advertise on Instagram. And then in the middle of the night of three in the morning, the campaign only targeted people on Facebook and only targeted 80-year-old people on Facebook.

And it didn't really work. And again, when you have so many people saying that that's what they encounter, that the platform wasn't really working the way they had expected to or the way it intended. And meta essentially was saying kick rocks. Like there's nothing we can do. Would meta not refund their money or anything? No, I believe at the time I was talking to people. I don't think people had gotten credits yet.

And as they were saying this, meta had its like best quarter ever, right? Right. So meta doesn't necessarily need to help alleviate these small kind of buyers. Even though these people in many instances are spending six figures. on their advertising campaigns. Breaking that down. So these media buyers, they're not just for the listeners

to break this down. So they're not buying for like one company. They represent more like 10, 50. Yeah, they can work with 10 brands. They can work 15, yeah. So they're like an agency of sorts. Exactly. So, I mean, my thought of them that would be

is how is meta making all that money? And it's just, it's very, there's no, just very basic thing. There's no other way to advertise in these platforms, right? There's no other inroad with Instagram or Facebook, right? It's just this. Yes. That is insane.

That is bonkers. Like, did you hear from meta at all? Did they get back to you? Yeah, I mean, I think they would say that advertisers love meta, right? Great. And I think a lot of, and a lot of people, you know, a lot of buyers will say, well, it does work for them. Again, sometimes. Outside of, like, that's why TikTok has become so interesting because TikTok kind of presents this third option.

Where previously you could really only spend on a meta. Snap obviously exists. That doesn't always gain a. That company is not a good business. It never has been. I loved it in high school. No, but that's the thing. It's like an app that has uses, but when they tried to add the business stuff, it just immediately like, oh, this just burns money. Yeah, Snap's interesting because they take over every industry of that and they always have such a presence. And yet I feel like the story, at least every time I talk to people about Snap as a platform, I was getting, eh. Reddit has

impressed a lot of people lately. But again, it wasn't until TikTok that people actually kind of raised eyebrows about another platform, giving them, it gives advertisers kind of a, diversity outside of just meta and Instagram. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guide, not quite unhumored me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from

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I don't know if I could necessarily speak to that. I'm always looking for like a broader picture. Sure. I don't even mean a qualitative one. It's just like, what are people saying stuff? Or is it just not that effective? It's just not that, like, interesting. Like, I don't think that every time I ask people about that,

I don't get that many interesting answers. Reddit is fascinating. Reddit is, like, the Wild West of the Internet. And I use Reddit constantly. We've got the better off-line Reddit full of various criminals. And it's great. Do you see a lot of ads there? I move past them with the speed of Pegasus.

You've got the trained eye. Yeah, I've just like old-school internet just like, no. just my brain removes it. Do you do that with newsletters too? Yeah. See, I feel like this is the thing. I'm curious how this evolves is the dorkiest conversation ever. This is better off line.

We are the dorkiest. I'm curious in five to ten years, like, and I work at a newsletter company. But I'm curious if in five to ten years people aren't even going to look at newsletter ads, because we've just trained the behavior to look to know exactly what to skip. I've done test ads of like mates products. Like, I don't, no one will pay me for an ad other than them. that will humiliate me by trying to sell you AI software, which everyone loves to tell me about. But like with the newsletters, people do click, people do engage. And I found that across the board.

And my general view is right now is newsletter companies are actually going to do better. Do you remember back in like 2021 when every publication was like, we have to do newsletters now? And then they immediately junked it three months later. It just feels insane because that feels far more the future than any kind of subscription product. like subscribe like the verge has a subscription product now and it's like I get what they have to do it because money things cost money but it just feels that that the whole media industry right now needs to work out a way to connect with the readers and it feels like their email address is good because like a good place for it that's where I want a New York magazine launched an app and I want

it to succeed I love an app they launched an app they created an app as if it's you know the the iPad era of news, whatever. But like an app for the magazine? An app for the magazine. Apparently not, or they didn't put a lot of resources behind it. And I think that's great. I hope it makes money, but I just want a newsletter. And they do.

They've got amazing newsletters. I'll take another newsletter. I'll read something else from New York Macs. So this is no completely different subject, but it's my damn show. The thing that I've been really thinking about right now with the media is that this objectivity problem where everyone has to be objective, but it also feels like every. Every outlet is trying to suck the life out of the reporters. Not like literally, but no personality, no voice.

Morning Brew actually does a pretty good job with that. They've actually, like, allowed you to talk like human words. But it feels like the Times, the Post, both, well, New York Post has a voice, just not a nice one. Washington Post. Business Insider is experimented with the discourse thing, which I do right for, so I guess, can't trash them. You're describing much more successful reporters than I am, by the way, as you just share this. No, but Morning Brew, I like Morning Brew, even though the video stuff rankles me a little bit. I cringe easy.

But it's just, we're in this weird point now, and I think ads comes into this as well, where I'm not sure anyone in the media knows what the fuck to do business model-wise. I think everyone's a bit scared. I just want to report the news. Exactly. Like, you just want to get like... Yeah, I don't know. I have the timid cowardly reporter's attitude towards this.

You know, so my beat primarily is advertisers, right? there is a cottage industry of ad tech companies that actively or inactively prevent advertisers from appearing in news publishers. Really? There's a whole culture around. Oh, there's like a Jezabel article about this, I feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's these brand safety companies. There's a whole cottage industry around.

And the example that everyone uses in the industry is that if I'm United Airlines or JetBlue or whoever, I don't want to run my ad next to a story about a plane crash. Right. You can see why that's a conflict. Understandable. But I think the industry, several years ago, is not necessarily, the interest in this tech has waned. Right.

But the industry internalized that United Airlines example as I don't ever want to be near news at all because that is a negative environment. Right. I can't control it. Right. Exactly. You can't control it. And they shouldn't be able to control it.

Advertisers shouldn't have a say on what's on a front page of a newspaper. And the report to that is, I have never thought differently about an advertiser based on the content it's next to. I don't think that's how humans think. It fails any critical thinking. And yet, these are billion-dollar companies. And this is a very better offline thought, but a lot of that is the people making those decisions don't read the news anyway. So they're just like, well, this thing I've made up is very scary. Or they think consumers are kind of dumb, which I don't think is fair.

I don't think that's accurate. But I think that's a sense. And it also just suggests they haven't talked to consumers. Like I feels like you could ask someone. And so, thematically, though, kind of want to explain to listeners why I've had Ryan on, I haven't fact you're marvelous at this, is the reason I talk about ads so much is, it's kind of something you said earlier. Google's, what, nine out of ten of all digital transactions.

though advertising is this annoying thing that everyone hates and complaints about, it is the reason everything goes like there's ads on this show that's ads on every website. Every single publication you read has a bunch of ads, banner ads, whatever video. And everyone has been trying to work out how not to do that for some time. And I think it's how the internet exists. It's how the internet makes money. That's like the way I try to, and I think this is me stylizing it, but it is how the internet is monetized. Through ads, baby, Google is an advertising business. Meta is an advertising business. TikTok. It's an advertising business. Is TikTok effective? Do ad buyers actually like it? Uh, yeah, absolutely. They love it. They wish it wasn't Chinese,

but they absolutely love it. And, and they're still there. They still have a very large presence, even though obviously it's been diluted a bit since the election, but even though there is a threat that it could not, there was a threat that it could not exist. Yeah, it doesn't seem like that seems like Trump's going to keep it now, which is very funny. It's just like, okay, I'm xenophobic, but not that. It's interesting as well because I feel like the news media could have, I'm not talking necessarily about morning bro, it feels like it's an undiscussed thing that only a few years ago we had the first major online ad company pop up that challenged any of the monopolies. Like the fact that TikTok exists and just fucking popped up,

is insane to me. Because it's relatively new, like what, 2018, 2019? I mean, various versions of it might exist it before. And it's interesting. It makes me wonder whether any other company could spin up, just shove a bunch of money and do the same thing. Yeah, I mean, it's, I know this is something that you've talked about a lot, but every time I go on Facebook.com, I think, man, there should be cobwebs here.

This doesn't look. This isn't appealing to me as a user. is a couple bad shit people I went to high school with kind of just screaming in the grocery aisles. Yeah. And even Instagram, I feel like has become that. I'm speaking purely. Oh, no, no.

I've said very similar things a lot of times and way more swear words. Like, it's fine. It's just really interesting and also kind of, what pisses me off about it? You don't have to agree. I can rent all I want. But is the Cobwebs thing. It's just like the products, like they're ad companies. and they've just stopped pretending they're not.

Like they're not pretending like, oh yeah, we're going to connect you with your friends. Your family's just like, eat you go pig. Eat your slop. Well, I'd say meta has gone as so far as to say, we're actually not as interested in connecting you with your friends.

What about this 70s funk band video? Would you like to see this content shown constantly? That's my algorithm. I just get bands. I get steely dan clips, which is cool. But that's, that is far.

from why I initially signed up for the app because I wanted to see everyone I went to high school with. For a solid six-month period, all I got was these insane self-defense things. It was just like three-second clips because they don't show you to click, they want you to click on it. And it would be like, how to stop a guy?

And it would like, you're watching, like, this guy, if I did this, I would die. Like, this is not useful information. And then a post from three weeks ago, just from like a band that I liked when I was 22 years old. and it's just, it's such a strange product and TikTok is extremely manipulative

with their algorithm, sure, but so is meta. But it also feels like more of a functional bit like a thing that you use and enjoy. I find it horrible. It upsets me. I'm too old. You find it horrible because... It's too much. I don't like him from that scrolling. I must be done. And like, so I don't even like scrolled on my Instagram pictures anymore because there's so much crap. You go like two scrolls and you've got an ad for a mobile

game that doesn't exist and then an ad for a direct to consumer, a low-carb product. I'm trying to be healthy. And it's just like discordant. The whole thing just feels like very weird. And then TikTok at least feels like, yeah, we're manipulating you, but we've got fun thing. Look at this.

I love it. I find TikTok, so I don't want to sound like a shrill. But I think in terms of just like the algorithm, as an entertainment platform, I find it fascinating. And again, I'm very dull and boring. So I'm looking at travel to Paris videos and cooking videos. I just get a lot of cooking and guitars. I feel like that's more representative.

of regular people, though. You don't need to go like three levels deep of irony to enjoy something. You don't need brain rot. Like I need like extra brain. I need the shit that is like a, like the golden Shiva looking thing that says, type yes to affirm that you have been affirmed. Like I'm like three levels deep. I'm deeply unhappy.

But you do normal stuff. Well, I want my friends to send me the brain rot stuff. That's how I get it. Curated content. I get the group chat. Now my Twitter is all brain rot. That's how I love. Like, perfect. And blue sky, blue sky's, yes. And we're, we're a pro blue sky platform. So you're, you're on blue sky. I got 103,000 followers. I'm cooking. I'm cooking. It's the best. And actually, blue sky's interesting because I don't know how much time you spent on it, but I've really been enjoying it and enjoying the posts that are like, yeah, wow, I shared a link on here and everyone saw it. Just the insane, we are beaten dogs. We're just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I can see the people I follow. And there's not just a griper in my reply telling.

telling me he's going to bomb my house or three different people. Well, see, you have a much larger presence than I do. I, I've been going, I've been AB testing. Right. What works on Twitter? Nothing works on Twitter. It's dying. I don't know.

I still feel like I still get more among my very small pool there. I feel like I still get more of a reaction. And I feel like Twitter is more unhinged in a way that I find pleasant. But to your point about avoiding newsletter ads, I feel like I can now avoid. avoid the Nazis. I mean, I've been, I was on the internet using like Usenet and V-bullet and shit. Like I grew up on gaming forums like, oh, a Nazi, that's just one of the many freaks that pops up an IRC. They should be stopped in numerous ways.

But X, X Twitter, whatever we call it now, is just, it feels like it's falling apart. It actually, it's getting, not even like the cobweb feeling. It feels like being in like a big lots, which no one has been in for a while. It's just, there's just shit falling down. There's some weird guy in the corner and he's saying some things you really don't want it. You don't want any business with him. Yeah, it isn't quantified, but a lot of the ads that I see now on X, Twitter are now coming from Google. They're coming from, yeah, they're coming from X as a partnership with Google.

Just for basic, like, open programmatic advertising. So just add to... Oh God, they're in the hole then. No, they must be. If they're having to move on to like a Google partnership. Yeah, so, so like a lot of when I was back home in Delaware where I'm from, like the ads I would see on Twitter were from like the pizza parlor down the street. And I have to assume the pizza parlor wasn't spending.

That is... Hundreds of thousands of dollars advertising. Do you think that's a bad sign for X? Well, what's funny is I wrote a story about this. What's funny is when I went to the brand. that were advertising there. I said, hey, you know, you're advertising on X. They said, what?

Oh, no. They said, what's X? This platform, it's just, you know, used to be called Twitter. And they were like, no, we're on Google. And I was like, well, you have to go, like, did you go in and did you click on the X thing or whatever? And they were like, no, well, we don't know how we... It's in the window, mate.

Essentially, you know, the Google algorithm believed that they could find cheap impressions on X, and that's what happened. that feels like a bad sign. I'm sorry, if they are like the equivalent platform of, like they're going to, you know they're going to add Outbrain. They're going to add Outbrain and Tabula. And as a listener, if you don't know what Outbrain is, go to CNN.com, scroll down to paid content and take a look at that dog shit.

Also, and I'll say this with respect to the many great reporters at the Verge, it's also on the Verge, which is disgusting. These things are called Chumboxes. They're cheap, usually affiliate marketing content. You'll hear it on an upcoming episode. I'm really going to get in the guts of them, briefly and then punch them. I believe it's Tabula.

One of them has a partnership. They do the assail. It's definitely outbreak on CNN. Oh, yeah, but one of them has a partner. I believe it's Tabula. They have a partnership with Apple. They do all the in-app advertising, or they were doing a lot of the in-app advertising for Apple.

Like Apple News. Is it still content stuff? I believe it's like Apple News. What an evil company? What does it say about a society that that company makes money? They should be in the stockades, not in the stock markets. disgusting. The look on my face is couldn't say no comment. No, he has absolutely

no opinions about this just to be clear. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week,

my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation.

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From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star Laila Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki.

The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the podcast. the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Let's move on to another subject, which is my favorite thing at the moment, which is, so open AI and perplexity. So perplexity, generative AI-powered search engine to deeply unprofitable companies. Open AI has been hinting Sarah Fry, the CFO, I believe, has been hinting that open AI would go into ads. And the response I've had when I've said, this is silly, is, yeah, they'll just

add ads. And it doesn't sound like you can just add ads unless you just plug in Google, which I don't think they're going to do. It just doesn't feel possible. Maybe it's possible. It doesn't feel like something that can spin up overnight. So perplexity, which is obviously the competitor to OpenAI and chat GPT, um, they, um, they're. They have started rolling out an ads model. Right. At the time, they wanted to charge people 50 bucks a CPM, and that's very expensive. And that's cost per mile, 1,000 impressions.

Yes, exactly. It isn't unique, it's just 1,000 times this is shown. And that is about 50 bucks a CPM is what Netflix wanted to charge. Netflix being like the most premium inventory you could buy. And Netflix had to lower. What did they lower to, do you know? Like roughly 35. Oh, God, yeah, but flexity is not going to.

So it's interesting. you do see these AI search companies dabbling with this. SEO advertising is like light speed complex in terms of just like basic digital advertising. When you say SEO advertising, what do you specifically mean? I mean advertising and search engines. Right. There, it is, it's almost like a totally different ballgame. It's a different category.

People that call themselves, you know, search engine advertisers. I don't necessarily think they would consider themselves regular advertisers. They're very, they've got a niche skill set and they're really good at it. And forever, before Google did this, overview answers, that's how Google would work. You could buy and bid on certain terms. Right. And then your link would appear. Exactly.

And so, long story short, what does that look like for Open AI's advertising business? The thing I always go back to, and again, this is very broad strokes, but my mom isn't using a lot of the OpenAI. products yet. And I think advertisers, your blue chip advertisers, your bud lights, your Ford's, I don't, they're

interested in scale. They're interested in eyeballs. They want to reach as many people as possible. They don't want like a niche tech product, even though 300 million weekly users sounds big. Yeah. That's still kind of niche in comparison to Google's billions of regular phones. And there could be an audience. There's certainly an audience

in Silicon Valley and in New York. and into, I'm pointing at myself, into tech dorks that use these tools. But it would be really interesting to see how they build these tools out, what kind of questions they get, and who are the advertisers that are interested in this? Like, you could obviously, Google has seen interests from a lot of shopping, e-commerce advertisers.

If you're selling clothing, you might be interested in, hey, what's a good outfit I could wear? Like, that's obviously a stupid example. It'll be interesting to see how they build this out. That's actually a great example. I'm assuming obviously we've seen Open AI has hired executives

from Twitter, from Instagram, from Google. I'm sure there are a lot of smart people that are building that. It'll be curious to see how the market does respond to it and how much interest there is. But just to be clear, you don't just like plug the ads. You have to do like an ad exchange. You have to have a place where publishers

can buy ads and then you have to have an exchange for bidding on the ads and then there's something else I'm missing. Like a, like a... You'd have to build a platform that would allow advertisers to go in, set the parameters that they want. It's very technical. And you can't just buy that off the shelf either. I mean, maybe you can white label it.

You can go to a company that does that and say, hey, give us the tech and we'll pay you a But you'd still have to find a way to represent those ads within queries is the problem. And you'd have to have salespeople that go to the market and say, hey, you should buy our product. Advertising is outside of the monopolies in the space. You know, Google, Amazon, Facebook, those are obviously where every dollar goes. It's a really cutthroat industry in terms of there's a lot of competition. I think advertisers might be willing to test and try out a new platform, but it takes a lot of work to really pull the dollars from a meta, from a Google, from an Amazon. It took TikTok a while. It took them years to actually build up.

And TikTok's business doesn't lose money every time anyone uses it, every single time. time. It's just, I've also had a lot of arguments online this week, in general, but about this specifically, because the response is, we will just add ants. The ads will be there. But it doesn't even sound like the economics are there, because they're losing $5 billion, they'll probably lose $10 billion next year. An ads business that does $5 billion a year does not seem something that you just spin up overnight, right? That's not an easy lift? Yeah, I can't speak. I've never had to build an ads platform. Right. Although, I will say, And this is totally different.

Right. This is a totally different industry. But you do see companies like Walmart, companies like Costco say, hey, wait a minute, we can actually, we've got a lot of data here. Let's sell this to advertisers. Right. And those have very quickly become billion dollar businesses. That is not the same thing as a search engine. Right.

People are typing queries into and then getting responses. And it isn't even obvious if they want to advertise, do it on search GPT or whether they just want to do it on the regular chat GPT, because those are two different products. Also, I don't think people realize how difficult search engines are to build. Also, there's like tens of thousands of salespeople at Google, right? Am I right in saying that? There's a lot of people. Yeah, there's like, it just doesn't, it feels like an insanely big lift and also the act, somewhat in my opinion. Don't worry. I'm curious. What is your, you know, most people as a default hate ads, if they can get Netflix, they want to get it

without. I'm saying people that can afford it are going to say, hey, I don't want to watch ads. I don't want to engage with that kind of stuff. What do you think about ad supported media, ads kind of infiltrating everything? I think if the ads don't ruin the experience, they're fine. If the ads are part of the experience, and you see them, I like them in newsletters, even though I may skip over them, like, immediately, I don't mind if they're not horribly interrupting. The reason I loathe meta and low, like, specifically like Instagram in particular, is their ads are intrusive and offensive at times. They're annoying. And they're not annoying in a way. It's like, oh, there's a banner ad. I can click away from that. It's like, no, you will see this across your entire

phone, dickhead. Look at it. Look at the new kind of low-carb bagels that don't even taste good. Yeah, they sold some bagels to me. But it's just, I don't mind that. And I also like the option of paying not to have ads. Like, I will do it where I need to, like, pay for Netflix, I pay for Hulu. because I actually watch a lot of stuff on there. And then Amazon did that, which is rude. But I don't know. I think that ad support is fine. It's just, one of the reasons of what you want here is listeners need to know.

It is not just like you go and do like ad company.com and then buy that for OpenAI and then it works. I also don't think they have a lot of time, but that's a completely different subject. So, all right. To wrap us up, what do you see for the next year within ads? It feels like a very chaotic time, especially with Lena Khan. be on the way out, probably on the way out. What do you think is going to happen? What are you excited for or even just interested in? Yeah, that's a good question. One thing I'm particularly interested in is this kind of, to my point earlier about everything, there's this cliche, I think

Eric Sufert coined it, he's an analyst in advertising that, everything becomes an ad network. Like, if you have an audience, which Ed, I believe you do. I do. You're going to start selling ads, whether you like it or not. Because it's found money. It's money. You looked under your shoe or you looked in your pocket. He's got people to sell to you sell to them. Exactly.

And everyone from, to what I was saying earlier, everyone from Walmart to clearly open AI has basically figured this out. Figure it out the same thing that Google and meta did, you know, 20 years ago that, hey, you can actually monetize this technology by selling advertising. I'm curious to see that now that everything is an ad network, How do you compete within that? If Uber is selling me ads while I am in their car, if I'm an advertiser, well, is Uber a goodbye?

Is that better than a Google than a meta? There's going to be a lot of competition in the space and all of these kind of tertiary platforms. I'm really curious to see, like, does that mean there's going to be consolidation? Does that mean that there's going to be these kind of like partnerships that pop up like United Airlines? They're going to start targeting people with ads in the plane on the back. of the screens. Some of them have done that. United Airlines, I believe, is the first to do it.

Really? I swear to God I saw one. So you might see an ad, so you might see an ad that everyone sees it. Oh, no, I'm thinking of the Wi-Fi. That's my bad. Yeah, they're going to customize the ads to each flyer on a United Airlines flight. And that's interesting. That's interesting. So also, leave me alone. And there's an Elon Musk connection because the way they can do it is because of Starlink,

because they have a partnership with Starlink, which gives them the internet to power the advertising. So they're able to actually. And a closing question thought, how at some point, to your point of the thing about ignoring newsletter ends, at some point, I wonder if people are just going to get so oversaturated that they just stop breezing past this stuff, that they just like, I don't care. I don't believe in, like I don't want to be harassed like this. because talking to the few normal people I know, the non-dorks, the people aren't smashing cars, windows, steal people's wallets and such, we listen to the show, of course,

their general thought is like these fucking ads, they're just like overwhelmed by it. Everyone's overwhelmed by everything, but the ads part, I'm actually really glad you brought up that everything becomes an ad network thing because I think everything really kind of has. It's in your Kindles, your phones,

your planes now, I guess, back of the car, you've got some weird thing on the back of Uber drivers things that advertises to you now. it's so weird. Yeah, I mean, I think, yes, people's eyes glaze over, but that's why they're willing to spend $7 million to get in the Super Bowl, right? Right. You need, there are so few opportunities to get as many eyeballs as possible

and to get people to pay attention. That's why, as there's less and less surviving media out there, it becomes more valuable. Ryan, thank you so much for joining me. You are one of the best advertisers out there. I'm so glad to have you. Where can people find you? Find me on Twitter.

Ryan Barwick, Morning Brew. I'm so sorry I had to describe ad tech to you. No, I feel sick that I had to do that. This is literally the most important industry in tech. Like, other than like microchips. Like, this is actually genuinely unlying thing. You can, of course, find me, and I have actually changed my Blue Sky name. And no, no, Mattisowski, I have not re-recorded the end.

I'm very sorry. You can find me on at Edzitron.com on Blue Sky. You can still find me on Twitter, but I think I might be bloody done. of it. That's what they all say. No, but I barely check it now. I feel like, I feel the same way as I do with Facebook. I'm looking at Instagram more. It's disgusting. Anyway, you've been listening to Better Offline. Thank you so much. Thank you to Daniel Goodmanoff, producer as well. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks to the listening, of Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Mattosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Matersowski.com.

M-A-T-T-O-S-O-S-K-I.com. You can email me at E-Z at Better Offline.com or visit Better Offline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat. Where's Your Ed dot at to visit the Discord and go to R-S-Better-O-Line to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions

about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on,

a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance, Science last.

Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.