Better Offline - Silicon Valley Fashion With The Menswear Guy

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

After earnings failed to reassure investors about their concerns around generative AI's return on investment, NVIDIA's stock suffered a record $279 billion loss in the space of a day. Nevertheless, the most important NVIDIA story is that of Chief Executive Jensen Huang, who appears to be one of the few tech executives that knows how to dress himself. In this episode, Ed Zitron is joined by fashion expert Derek Guy (AKA @dieworkwear on Twitter) to talk about Jensen's swag, and why more men should find ways to enjoy fashion. Derek on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dieworkwear https://www.dieworkwear.com/ https://www.putthison.com/ --- LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/ Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/  Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at Ed's Socials: https://twitter.com/edzitron https://www.instagram.com/edzitron https://bsky.app/profile/zitron.bsky.social https://www.threads.net/@edzitronSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Nvidia's stock has suffered a record $279 billion loss in one day's trading. It's truly, truly crazy. And today we're talking about the most important story in Nvidia. which is, of course, Chief Executive Jensen Huang and his wonderful swag. This man knows how to dress, which can be rare in the tech industry. But I've brought in men-wenswear expert Derek Guy to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks so much for having me.

So Jensen looks good, but how would you describe his general aesthetic? You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy, possibly having effects in politics, you know, many fear that this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character. I think he's very stylish, but he kind of dresses a bit like an evil character because he does these kind of all-black outfits with these, most of them look like to be cowhide or look like... cowhide, possibly goat hide, leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets.

But it's always this kind of very sleek, all-black look that, you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of ominous evilness. Yeah, and I always thought it was kind of more of a biker look, but what is he, do you think even going for here? Do you think he's going for evil? Or is he just trying to be a certain kind of cool? No, I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind of cool, a biker kind of edgy character, and I think he pulls it off well.

I think he's actually one of the few, I think there's a low bar for tech guys. But he actually, I think, clears the bar to be a pretty stylish figure. So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into what kinds? I know you've talked about materials, but what is it about these cuts exactly? Do you know the brands at all? I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect that they're custom made for him.

They fall very well on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a tailor jacket or a parker or a leather jacket, everything hangs from the shoulders. And if the shoulders are not cut right, then it's just the jacket's not going to fit well. And his jackets fit very well in that essentially he gets a very nice kind of upside-down V-shaped for the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well and the cut is, done intentionally to create that kind of a little bit more angular look. Some of his jackets, I believe, from memory, have what's called a long front balance. So when you're looking at

a jacket from the side, it's always fine for the front hem, the front of the hem to be lower or even with the back, but you never want the front of the jacket to be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't think of many exceptions to this rule. But his His jackets are cut such that he gets very, very, on some of the jackets, not all of them, on some of the jackets, he gets very low front balance. And it looks very stylish that way. It's just a little bit more of a stylized look. Clearly, I think, he hired somebody to style him.

His suits generally also fit very well. And my guess is that he just doesn't want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time. and this allows him to stick with a singular look and look pretty good in public life. Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people, and by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical evaluation of these people. This is aesthetic. But Zuckerberg, for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy. And I think people underplay how much of that goes into the fashion of these tech,

entrepreneurs. Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the history of kind of the impact the tech industry has had on fashion, or men's fashion specifically. I mean, if you think of basically post-war era in the United States, the suit has been kind of declining since the 1960s and 70s. The suit became too tied with the establishment and after kind of student war protests, freedom movements, and the Watergate scandal, people really did not want to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and started to take on different types of casual, often casual that represented the working class. But I think there was a major shift starting in the 90s. After the tech boom and the rise of Silicon

Silicon Valley kind of billionaires, essentially, it wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable. It's that another form of fashion became very desirable. And that fashion was the kind of like hoodie jeans uniform that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of new meritocracy to say that we don't hue to the kind of traditionalism of industries back east. We're in California shaking up the economy. And the only thing that matters is your skills. You know, SBF basically adopted this kind of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he did not dress very well. And I think part of that was this act to say, I am so in the world of intellectual thought and coding and I only care about meritocracy

that I can't spare a single thought to how I dress. But in reality, this, you know, this hoodie and jeans uniform, especially in the tech industry, became its own kind of norm, such that it wasn't just that people didn't care about fashion. It's that dressing a certain way signal that you are part of the group, part of the crowd. And now we see that the original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking, I don't want to say, you know, they're not, Mark Zuckerberg is not transforming his look. But at least since the fall of the fall of the of last year, he certainly has taken a slightly larger interest in his look, and he's transforming his look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish. And I think that that signals a naturally

significant change in how the tech industry thinks about fashion, and then also how that is impacting the larger cultural space. Yeah, I didn't really think about it, but Zuckerberg, he is kind of, he's dressing like a man dressed up as the 90s rapper at times, but he seems. to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes, at least. Like, what he is wearing looks nicer, it hangs on him better, versus feeling like, and I admit before this call, I didn't really think about how performative the I'm not really trying look is. But it seems like he's trying now, and I wonder if that is trying to signal a shift in the

industry, at least with him. You know, I'm not really quite sure what is his deal. There have been multiple articles written about his style. For a while, it was rumored. that all of his t-shirts were, his gray t-shirts were from Cuccinelli, and they bought them from Wilkes-Bashford in San Francisco. I can't remember the price of the T-shirts,

but it was rumored that he was spending something like $1,000 or $2,000 on hoodies and like $700 on T-shirts. That was published again somewhere, and I want to say it was maybe the cut. But afterwards, Mark Hoodie's... I'm sorry, Mark Hoodie. Mark Zuckerberg's team reached out to the writer to clarify to say that he does not, in fact,

by all of his hoodies from Bouchbashford, and that he did buy one once, but then just never did again. But he listed the names of where he gets his clothing, and they were pretty kind of, I would say, in-the-no brands. Not super fashionable, but relatively in the know. So he named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very in-the-no. I think some other brands that escape me at the moment.

But these brands essentially are very rarely sold in just one store. So I thought he was working with a stylist. His team denies that he works with a stylist. But the difference of his clothes is that they are a little bit more in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his Instagram handles Zuck, you'll see that starting in, let's say, like, October or November of last year, his wardrobe dramatically changed.

So before he wore pretty kind of standard T-shirts, jeans, sometimes a sweatshirt, and the cut was pretty basic. The shoulder seam sat on his shoulder bone, you know, like slim straight jeans. It's a very, very basic kind of look. But then starting in October and November, you start to see the cuts change.

He wore a drop shoulder seam. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist. What else was he wearing? He was obviously, he adopted a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think, in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate. And I think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think he looks better for it. So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what a silhouette is when you think of one as a person buying clothes.

So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's fit and there's silhouette. Fit is, I think, you should think of it in very narrow terms. So to give an example when you are, let's say, buying a button-up shirt, if you can't button up the shirt, it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and the collar lifts from your neck, even when you're not moving, it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you can't button the pants, they don't fit.

silhouette is slightly different. Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all of the details in the outfit, and you were just to think of the outfit in terms of shapes, think of it as an outline, that is basically the silhouette of the garment. So in that sense, sometimes, you know, when people see, like, pants that are very cropped, they say, oh, well, those don't fit. Not necessarily. Sometimes pants are designed to be very cropped, and that's part of the silhouette.

Sometimes sleeves are meant to stack around on the wrist. It's just part of the look. When you say stack, what do you mean? Sorry. So if you're wearing a very long-sleeve shirt, for example, if you go to a bespoke tailor to give an example, and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they would design the shirt in such a way

that the cuffs stay stationary on your wrist, even when you move your arms. So that means that, the sleeve length is a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, when you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However, some designers, such as John Elliott, I'm trying to think of some other. Bahrain is another designer that does this.

Probably Rick Owens, I assume, because he does these very long drapey silhouettes. The sleeve is so long that essentially you get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking around your wrist. and it's just part of the look. It doesn't have to be that clothes fit only in one singular way. Silhouette allows you to think of an outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit more creativity.

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I feel like you don't think of Silicon Valley. It feels that while there is some of the performative, I'm just a regular guy thing, I'm focused on my merit. I also feel like, especially in such a male-dominated culture, and especially now in the valley, there's a lot of this masculine kind of, oh, you want to be a big tough guy,

and fashion is not for tough guys. And I feel like it deprives them of something. It deprives them of something they could really enjoy. Like, there are so many parts of the valley that enjoy, I don't know, building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the architecture work. Yeah, the idea of doing so aesthetically is somehow feminine. in. It just feels like a loss for them.

Yeah, I am a strong believer that you don't have to pay attention to clothes. I think people are generally aware of clothes to some degree. I think more than they like to do. But I don't think anyone has to take a great interest in their wardrobe, and I'm a very strong believer that you should never judge a person's deeper and more important inequalities based on their dress. But I do think that if you, I think of dress as sort of like eating. Like, I have to eat to survive.

and I have to dress to go outside. And if I have to do these things, you know, I think it's nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me feel good versus something that makes me feel bad, something that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing to my life. And buying those items, you know, if you're like really deep into it, like it's, you know, like basically a core part of my life,

then certainly can take a lot of time. doesn't have to take a lot of your time. And if you just buy things that you like and make you happy, I think that just adds something to the beginning of your day. Yeah. And it's something to enjoy about your persona and a lot of these people are quite focused on their identity as well. And one of the reasons I had you on here is I've got into clothes recently, and it's a crazy way to word it, but the idea of being able to dress yourself in the way that makes you feel good about yourself is fun. And I think that societally, especially, well, definitely with men, there is this push away from it, but it also, I'm glad you mentioned what you did there. It isn't about necessarily

putting a ton of attention in. It's feeling good about what you're wearing. And the only time I've really thought of this happening in the valley at scale, are you familiar with American giant hoodies? Yeah. So there was this weird long period, like a year or two, when everyone wanted one, they were actually quite hard to get. They were these very heavy hoodies. And that was the only time I think there's been like a known aesthetic discussion in the valley. And it's so, It's something I think everyone could enjoy. Yeah, I mean, a hoodie is a perfect example. I like Canber.

American John also makes good hoodies. I'm not knocking them. Camber is another one that makes these very stout hoodies. Yeah, I like hoodies. And I think when you put, I dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body. And I like a thicker kind of roomier hoodie. And that's just personal preference. If someone likes the thinner hoodies, that's fine too.

I just think when you are paying attention to these things. things. You know, I don't know. When you walk around, you feel a little bit better. When you see yourself in the mirror, you like how you look. You feel a little bit more confident. I think of it just like, it's just like cooking, you know. You could eat boiled potatoes, but you know, you could also throw some seasoning in and it will taste better. So. Yeah. So actually, this is a good question. How can you dress like a hoodie, for example, and look fashionable and feel. Fashionable is probably the wrong word. What's a good, fun way to dress with a hoodie, I guess is what I'm asking? So I'm, I sort of feel that when we talk about aesthetics in this sense, there is one aesthetic that most people agree looks good.

And that tends to be aesthetics that are part of the hegemonic culture. So the suit, for example, most people when they see a man in the suit, if the suit is assuming it's cut well and it, you know, fits well and all of these things, they usually say, oh, that person looks good. Right. And it's sort of like how received pronunciation, even if you dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone recognizes that like, oh, yeah, that's like the hegemonic, you know, way of speaking, and it sounds good. Once you break out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all these niche territories, and there are going to be a lot of people that don't like how something sounds or how something looks, and that's the same with, you know, pronunciations of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies, I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very classic workwear look. So that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues. If you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged chino styled after the mid-19th century army chinos that were issued to U.S. vets versus the very kind of like business casual look.

And then, you know, like service boots, blunt stones, for a jacket, if the weather allows you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then trucker jackets, bombers, churcoats, like anything that seems rugged. Double-kneed carhart pants also go really well with hoodies. But again, recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic aesthetics and culture and all these representations, there are a lot of people who say, oh, well, you know, there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions, which I don't adhere to. But I think aesthetically, that kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks really good. And there's nothing about a look like that that has to be slubby. And I think that that's what people associate with sometimes.

True. Although I don't have a problem with looking shlobby. I think you can be slubby and also be stylish. There are ways to wear sweatpants cool, though I've yet to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes, he's mostly just looks like jeans, jeans leather jacket and black shirt, right? Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted his look, and you can kind of do easy comparisons to see why his works better. So when you look at Jensen Huang, if you pull up photos of him,

And you can also compare his look to Sequoia, partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black T's and black jeans. But his jackets just don't fit as nicely. They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like, you know, it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but his does not look baggy in an intentional, thoughtful way. It's just kind of like a limp, limp jacket that hangs on them.

And then when you look at Jensen Huang, there are very strong, angular lines that just make him look better, for lack of a better word. And yeah, I think Jensen just happens, I assume, because of his immense wealth. I assume he just, you know, hired a stylist to help him with this part of his life. When you look at early photos of him, he dressed as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts, chino's jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in this way, he looks great.

I will say that there was a moment, maybe like 10 years ago and still somewhat today, where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching tailor jackets, meaning sport coats, suit jackets, blazers, and the like, and substituting them for black double riders. And this was right around the time that black double riders started to become a fashion trend. And what is a black double writer? A black double rider is, so there are two main types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the Cafe Racer.

That's a single, I don't know if it's called a single breasted, but you can think of it in terms of a single breasted. The zip enclosure goes up and down, the center of the body, usually has a band collar, meant to fit very tight on the body. And then the double rider is what you think of when you think of Marlon Brando and the Wild One, think of shot perfectos and has an asymmetrical zip and usually a D pocket on one side has lapels and I would say like in 2014-2015

when Eddie Slamagne was appointed creative director at St. Laurent he and Kanye actually popularized the black double rider as a fashion piece and they made it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned into fashion piece by kind of making them out of softer lamb skin leathers. So that was kind of clear that the person was wearing it for stala, not for just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion conscious men, but it was especially popular among women

who were seeking an alternative to a tailor jacket. And one of the interesting things is that for the period of, I want to say, like, maybe 2014, 2015 to maybe about 2000, 19, 2020, figures like AOC, Cindy McCain, multiple CEOs that are women, the CEO of, if I remember correctly, Hewlett-Packard, I think maybe one of the American car companies, all of them started to wear double riders in somewhat like professional settings. Like when they're doing television interviews, I think AOC may have even worn a double rider into Congress. And it was considered a form of professional dress. And I think it's interesting when I see

Jensen wearing a leather jacket in this manner that communicates not, it doesn't communicate dangerous rebel. It communicates professionalism, put-togetherness. I think it's interesting that comes after that kind of moment where women made it somewhat normal in professional spaces. I wonder if part of it is it is also the silhouette. It's the fact it fits in the same way, maybe you're the expert here, but in the same way you say

that kind of suits give you a narrow of respectability in part because they usually, the fit is quite good, the silhouette's good. Maybe it's something like that because he looks well put together. He doesn't look like he just got off a bag. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. No, I think he looks great.

Of all of the tech people, high profile tech people that have tried to improve the look. I think he's the most successful. The other one that comes to mind is I'm probably going to butcher's name, and I apologize if he happens to be listening, but Adam Moseeri, I believe he's the president of Instagram. Yes.

He has an Instagram account under his last name, Moseeri. And you can see many of his looks there. His looks are a lot more, they're less edgy, a little bit more kind of, I don't want to call them basic, but they are, I think they're more approachable for many guys. So instead of like a basic button up shirt, he'll wear a camp collar. Instead of like the polos that you see at Lacoste,

he wears polos with a skipper collar, which is I think a little bit more of a stylish collar. He often layers with a jacket. He also, like Mark Zuckerberg, wears a gold chain. And all of these kind of touches, I think make him look a little bit better than most tech figures. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me.

Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, uh, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open.

Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Run a business and not thinking about podcast. Podcasting, think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

And as the number one podcaster, IHearts twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only IHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think IHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-I-Hart to get started. That's 844-8-4-4-I-Hart.

life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that.

Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you. you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeke. The ability to show gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything.

Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity,

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Help! Somebody! Please! But there's so much more to me than me. I'm an actor. I'm a comedian. And recently, I've become quite the helper myself. And on my new podcast, hope from a hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with my sage advice and thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff rant and recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to man.

If I'm calling you, even if you're on your phone, let it ring twice. One ring is too scary. Oh, cream of chicken suit. Hey, cream. Cream a chicken suit. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite as part of the Mike Coutura Podcast Network available on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So something you said on Twitter maybe a month ago, maybe I'm butchering the timeline here, is that men kind of get trapped in these tropes and they don't do more fun things like jewelry.

What are some other fun things that men can actually do and bring into their? their wardrobe. Well, I always tell guys to start first with thinking of fashion as social language. So don't think of it as just random creative expressions. So, you know, Jensen Huang, for example, we've been talking about him during this podcast. He wears, you know, these black biker-style leather jackets, black t-shirt, and black jeans, often black boots. So it would be, it would ruin the look if all of a sudden he tied,

like a colorful, I don't know, a colorful necktire around his belt loops, you know, like that would just be, it would ruin the look. I would say for many guys, start thinking about fashion and social language. In that sense, think of the different kind of forms of forms that that language can take. So, you know, you have to find an aesthetic that speaks to you. That could be like punk, skate, workwear, prep, whatever it may, avant-garde, whatever it may be. And then, you know, dress with that type of intentionality, dress with that aesthetic in mind. Don't be afraid of, I think when guys are shopping for a jacket, they go wrong when they shop for the blandest form of a jacket.

And what they should do is just think of the look that they want to create and find the jacket that communicates that look. So it's more about thinking of an outfit the way that you would think about how to write a sentence and less about like throwing paint on canvas, for example. Think of the sentence that you want to write and then find ways to buy clothes and create outfits that essentially communicate something as a sentence would. Yeah, and I guess express meaning that you want to just visually. Like almost like a costume, but not exactly like you're pretending to be something. Yeah, and I think it's fine to wear things that, you know, allow you to explore different facets

of your identity. I think as a general matter, most guys can benefit from wearing a layering piece. That usually improves a look. I would not... Just real basic. What do you mean by a layering piece? So if you think of a guy in chinos and a t-shirt or a button-up shirt and sneakers, you know, even if it fits well, it's kind of a basic look. There's not going to be a lot going on. So he would look a lot better usually if he has a finishing layer. That could be, like when you look at Adam O's Sari's Instagram, that can be anything from like a chunky textured cardigan to a cool jacket. Sometimes when it's too hot to wear a layering piece, you can do it with very lightweight layers. So in the summertime, or if you happen to live in a climate that's very warm,

you can do a layering piece just by wearing t-shirts and then layering a short sleeve open kind of shirt. Or it could be a chambray shirt, like a work shirt. You could even do a kind of like reverse layer. So for example, if you imagine a Western denim button-up shirt and a pair of jeans, that looks fine. But then if you want to create a more layered look, unbutton a few buttons on the Western button upshirt, layer in a rib tank and then possibly even a gold chain, and that will look better. I think when you create these layers, create a little bit more visual interest, that helps. Instead of wearing, you know, plain, smooth, merino, v. Nix, and crew neck sweaters that you find at the mall get a textured sweater. So like a rib sweater or

a Shetland sweater or anything with a bit of texture on it. Again, going back to Adam Moseri, when you go to Instagram and you look at sweaters, they often have a bit of texture. Anything to add those elements, a bit of texturing, a bit of layering, I think will help an outfit. And I think a little bit of it is kind of relaxing also, just accepting that, the Like, people get the, people can do whatever they want. It's their own thing. And that there is no, there is only you. And, but the one question that I always come back to with shopping in general is, how?

Like, what is the thing, how do you even start finding clothes that actually fit? Like, are there stores you recommend that have people that will help? Like Nordstrom, I know has some. It's just that I know most people, myself included, listening to this, probably can't afford, like a custom leather jacket, for example. Right. again, it really comes back to a look that you want to create. If you decide, I would start collecting photos of aesthetics that you like, and over time, themes will emerge.

And let's say if, for example, you prefer a very kind of like preppy look, then maybe you go to Jay Crewe. If you have a little bit more money to spend, maybe you do Todd Snyder, although they're not really preppy. They're preppy adjusting it, I suppose. I guess Americana. So the vaguest term I can give it. But let's say you want a little bit more of a rugged biker look than maybe you go to Self-Edge.

If you want a very minimalist look, maybe you look at LaMere. And, you know, there are going to be kind of more affordable options. Some listeners are going to look up Lamar and be like, this guy really recommended a shop that sells, you know, like $600 pants. But if you can't afford LeMere, then you can go to a store named Cost. COS, and they have clothes that are like Lamar. Or you could look at Lamar's collaboration with Uniclo, and they have a line called You, just simply you, and that will have many of Lamar's shapes, but in more, not only affordable prices, but more affordable material so that you're not paying for like a silk shirt, for example. And yeah, I think you start with the aesthetic that you want

to create, and then find stores that specialize in the... in that look. And one way is if you find a store or brand that you really like, go to their Instagram account, click the tag section, and then you'll see a bunch of people who are posting photos of outfits with those garments. Then you can not only follow the people that are stylish that you would like to kind of emulate, but you can also look at the other brands that they're wearing. So let's say you find that you really like prep

and you discover a store called Sid Mashburn, which is really good for that look. And you go to Sid Mashin's Instagram, and you click the tag section. You see all these people wearing Sid Mashburn stylish ways. And you click their photos and you find out, oh, I can also check out, I don't know, Mercer for button-down shirts and ratio clothing for, you know,

chinos and other types of button-ups. that's a way that you can essentially discover new brands and then go deeper in the rap. You know, on those pages, you can click the tag section. You start following certain accounts. You learn about certain brands and you start saving photos. You can either bookmark them in Instagram

or you can save them on your phone or your computer or whatever. And I think over time, you just start refining your taste and figuring out what works for you. It obviously helps if you can, if you're lucky enough, this does not always work.

but if you can find people online that are built similar to you. So if you're a heavier guy, it certainly helps to find, if you can find guys that are built like you on Instagram, because then you can see what brands they're buying. Yeah, so I would start there. I would start thinking about fashion and social language. Look at brands, look up those accounts, find stylish people, follow them, save photos, and then over time you'll figure out which stores to check out.

And now the final question. How do you go and buy a leather jacket? Where would you start? If you want to be like Jensen. Is this, can I get, can I get deep in the, in the, in the, in the, absolutely. Okay. If you are, I'm very excited that you ask this question. So, hell yeah.

I would say, first and foremost, you have to understand that leather is just a material. It's like wool, like cotton. So it's sort of like when someone. ask, how do I buy a leather jacket? That's as vague as asking, how do I buy a wool jacket or a cotton jacket? The first question is always, what kind of style, what kind of aesthetic do you want to do? And let's say the person is, you know, they fancy themselves as a real rugged, tough guy, you know, works with their hands, loves, I don't know, fixing motorcycles or whatever. Well, then probably for you, I would recommend a tougher leather jacket, maybe in a motorcycle.

style. So that would tend to be materials like goat skin, cowhide. Those types of jackets will look heavier and more like armor, for example. And if someone was searching for that, I'd recommend them to self-edge, standard and strange probably carry some leather jackets. I would recommend they check out shot, which is a classic leather jacket maker. Lewis Leathers, snake oil provisions. All of those shots. have those styles, and then additionally, they have the types of clothes that you can wear with that leather jacket. So they'll have the right flannel shirts and the right jeans and the right boots. You don't have to buy the entire look from one store, but, you know, when you go in that

store and you figure like, oh, this is the way I put together that look, then, but, you know, the flannel shirts don't fit me. You can look somewhere else for shirts that have those qualities. But let's say you're not that type of guy. And you think of yourself as kind of like, I don't know, like a, like a, the type of guy that visits to wine bars, right? And you, you love listening to like, I don't know, classical music or whatever. And you think, you look at brands like Laura Piana and you think that's your lifestyle. Well, then you probably want a leather jacket that's made out of softer materials, not that kind of like tough, rugged armor-like material.

So you're going to be looking at, for example, like lambskin. And for that, I would check out VALSTAR. which is an Italian brand. They do an A1 bomber that's very, quote, unquote, city-fied out of softer materials. That type of jacket goes really well with tailored trousers, like dress shirts, Shetland Sweeters, Chucco boots, things like that. Who else does leather jackets like that? I assume Mr. Porter's in-house line, Mr. P., is kind of, they do these kind of like, afford, I wouldn't call them affordable, but they're more affordable versions of the designer

lines that they sell. And Mr. P will probably have designs like that. Let's say you are, you don't think of yourself as either a wine bar guy and you don't think of yourself as like the rugged motorcycle guy. You think of yourself as just kind of like a normal dad. You know, you're just like a normal dude. You don't have these strong associations. Well, then I would maybe check out, you know, instead of like a double rider, which I like, but, you know, double rider has loaded with a little bit more meaning. So instead of a double rider, then maybe you can look at bomber jackets, so either an A1 bomber or an A2 bomber. And those are, you know, those are a little bit more neutral, I think, in terms of styling. I would look at Buzzrickson does some repo

repro bombers that people could check out. Double RL probably has. some repo bombers. You can also just go vintage, go to a vintage shop, check out like a G1 bomber, for example. An A1 and A2 is a little bit, like, it's very, it's very dad. But a G1 has a furry collar, essentially, that I think looks a little bit more charming. And, you know, you could wear that with, like, sweatshirts, jeans.

And it's not as, if you're a guy that does not identify, identify as wine bar or motorcycle jacket or motorcycle dude, then a bomber jacket might be your thing. Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been so wonderful. Where can people find here? They can find me on Twitter at the handle dieworkware and then also write on my own blog, which is dyeworkware.com. And also do a lot of writing for a website called Put This On, which you can go to put this on.com. That's where most of my service writing is. And if they go there, they click the start here button, they can look at a whole bunch of articles that can get them started to dressing better. Thank you so much. And everyone, thank you for listening. And then you're going to complain that

you're going to hear me say thank you for listening again. But that's your problem. Thanks for having me on. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Mattersowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattisowski.com. You can email me at EZ at Better Offline.com or visit Better Offline.com to find more podcast links and, of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat. Where's YourEd.com to visit the Discord and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of Cool Zone Media.

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