Between the Moon - 17. Unbroken: I Ching and Cycles of Change with Benebell Wen

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome, dear listener, to Between the Moon, a podcast about self-study in relationship with cycles. I'm your host, April McMurtry, founder of The Moon is My Calendar. On today's episode, I have the wonderful pleasure and honor of speaking with author Benabelle Wenn. Benabelle's most recent book is Eaching the Oracle. This is a practical guide to the book of changes with an updated translation that is annotated with cultural and historical references that helped to restore the eaching to its shamanic origins. It's so much fun listening to Benabelle's stories as well as an appreciation of her generosity in. all of the information and scholarship that she has synthesized and shares through her work. So if you're not familiar with Benabelle's work or haven't visited her website, I will put the link in the show notes.

Starting point is 00:01:14 It is like going to a library for the esoteric arts. There are videos and articles on tarot basics, astrology basics, numerology basics, numerology basics, functuary basics, And when I say basics, it is vast. It is not just surface level stuff. Benabelle goes deep. There's also a companion course to Eaching the Oracle. So if you enjoy this conversation and want to learn more, I'll also put the link for that companion course,

Starting point is 00:01:47 which is free and full of wonderful information and ways of applying the knowledge and understanding of working with the Eaching as an oracle. So the book itself has practicums that are sprinkled throughout all of the chapters, anything from bottling thunder magic to healing your spiritual center. This book is an incredible reference. It's almost a thousand pages, and I will say I was so relieved and delighted that almost every single page has an illustration, a photograph, a diagram, some kind of visual element that pairs and goes along with the text. There's even in-depth instructions for divination methods. The book itself has a

Starting point is 00:02:47 lot of the theory and historical references as well as mythology and shamanic roots. For anyone who is new to the Iching, we do talk a bit about the foundations and the building blocks, these lines of code. And the name of this episode is called Unbroken, Eaching and Cycles of Change, because of a kind of a misinterpretation or misunderstanding in the English language and in the west of Yiniching and Cycles of Change. As it's represented by the broken line, a lot of the qualities of yin are underappreciated. And Benabelle gives an excellent explanation of the cosmology and the relationship of yin and yang, these solid and broken lines that come together to form lines of code that are the basis of the itching that come from through the Tao into this binary yinianian. yang that then forms the four faces of God. For example, one of those faces being elder yin.

Starting point is 00:04:04 So two lines, two of the broken pass-through lines of yin. That is the elder yin. All of this is explained in detail in her book, but just to give for anyone who might be new of like, what's the difference between the trigrams and the hexagrams and all of these lines that are, for me, it's like accessing and understanding a language that is symbolic and embedded with historical and cultural wisdom. So that elder Yin, when it has another yin line added to it, becomes the element or the agent of change that is earth. And when Elder Yin has a line of Yang added to it, becomes Mountain. In the conversation Benabelle speaks to,

Starting point is 00:04:58 and I ask her to talk a little bit about the distinctions between Earth and Mountain that have very different energies to them, same with lake and water. Those trigrams, the three lines of code, then get doubled up. So two trigrams together form the hexagrams, and there are a total of the 64 hexagrams that have their foundation in what Benabelle calls the eight immortals. So those are fire is the philosopher, thunder, the spellcaster, wind, the shaman, water, the healer, mountain, the alchemist, earth, the enchanter, heaven, the virtuoso, and lake the warrior. So those 64 hexagrams. In her book, I'll just read a little passage about the foundation.

Starting point is 00:05:52 So at a fundamental level, when you endeavor to interpret a hexagram, you are accessing the alchemical functions of the yin and yang lines. That is how the different combinations of yin and yang forces in nature are being transmuted. For me, whenever I'm learning something new, I know that it helps to have something familiar to relate to. So in this conversation, Benabelle shares a correspondence between the eight immortals and the eight phases of the moon. There's so many connections that the moon has with being in a constant state of transformation from light to dark, from dark to light and back again through this cycle. I am so grateful because having that connection with the lunar phases can then help the, the energetic qualities of those trigrams, those three lines of code, then can have something that's a reference and a correspondence with the moon.

Starting point is 00:06:59 Benabelle does talk about which hexagram corresponds with this year of the wood dragon and speaks a little bit about the qualities of that particular hexagram and what that may foretell about the energy of the year. There's so much more that I could share as an introductory. but hopefully the conversation will just speak for itself. I'll just start by introducing you. My guest today is Benabelle Wynne, and she's the author of the E. Ching, the Oracle, recently published through North Atlantic books here in the Bay Area in California.

Starting point is 00:07:36 And I just love reading even just the description of your publisher, that they're committed to a bold exploration of the relationship between my, body, spirit, culture, and nature. So beautiful right there. And you've also published the holistic tarot, the Tao of craft, food talismans, and casting sigils in the Eastern esoteric traditions. Thank you. Yes. I love North Atlantic books. I'm really glad that I publish with them. They've just been phenomenal. So I wonder if just, if starting out in sort of framing this conversation around your most recent book, your work is so vast for anyone who has not visited Benabelle's website. It goes down through tunnels and places that it's really, you know, accumulation of many, many years of study,

Starting point is 00:08:34 practice, and sharing. When did you start to share, I guess, online or in these public spaces? I think that website is 12 years old. And so it has 12. years of work on there and hopefully nobody goes and checks the oldest stuff there but like because it is over a decade there's definitely things there that you know you evolve after 12 years i hope you've evolved so there are things there that i don't feel like represent me anymore but it's still up you know just look at the dates if it says you know 2008 i don't know how much of that still represents who i am today but yes 12-ish years of of content beautiful and through that evolution I'm almost, I'm just curious about the process of writing this book.

Starting point is 00:09:19 When I received this book in the mail, I was like, whoa. It's how many pages? 900. Yeah. What a work of, I mean, research, but also what you've infused in it with your own personal practices. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about just, yeah, that process, the inspiration from sort of, I don't know, beginning to and I don't think anything begins really or ends, but just how it came to be. I think at any given time, like a lot of writers, I have multiple pots,

Starting point is 00:09:55 incomplete, half-baked manuscripts that I don't know for sure which one is going to go to the finish line or which one at any point I really want to, you know, finish. So it's kind of like casting multiple, you know, hooks out and then trying to figure out which one, you know, kind of has a bite to it. And so this book, I did the translation. My first draft of the translations happened about seven or eight years ago. It was the first time I translated the classical Chinese with the English, and that was just the translations. That's it.

Starting point is 00:10:23 And then a few years later, I went back, did a second, like a review, revision, a second look at the translations, made a couple of improvements to it, and then added my annotations, which is to kind of explain and give a little more cultural and historical context to a lot of those verses. And then in 2020, 2021, during the quarantine, that was when I went back for. a triple check, did another revision, another update. And then at that time, started assembling a lot of that cultural context and putting together the mythology, things that we all intuitively know if you're a native practitioner, but just finding a way to sort of concretize it into chapters so that it can be presented to a Western audience. So the whole work itself took an evolution of about seven to eight years. And it wasn't until 2020 that I really decided. I think my next book is going to be the Eaching. And a funny reason for that was actually my misinterpretation of

Starting point is 00:11:17 Confucius. So I don't know where I got this. It's fake news. But for some reason, in my head, I thought Confucius said that you don't truly understand the Eaching until you're over 40. Now, it's something else. It's a little bit nuanced. I won't get into it. But it's a different quote. And I just misremembered the quote. But for some reason, that's what I thought. So I kind of felt like, well, until I hit the age of 40, I really don't have any right to be telling anybody. anything about the Eaching because I'm still learning my connection and dynamics with the teaching myself. So I wait until after the age of 40 and then it's not like I'm 40, you go ahead and publish 40. I forgot about this. I went and did other things. And it wasn't until a couple

Starting point is 00:11:55 years later that I said, hey, maybe now it's a good time to revisit that text, the Eaching, because that kind of is that one great thing I really want to put out there because it's so close to my heritage and my roots. Yeah, so beautiful. And speaking of that, there's a story that you tell in the beginning of the book and just your own personal relationship of working with the E Ching as a mode of communication with your grandmother, would you be willing to share just a little bits that really, I mean, it almost brought me to tears how beautiful that was in talking about that opening up like a line of communication, really. I think it definitely can. And then it wasn't until I did that intuitively, not knowing that was actually a well-established practice. So from

Starting point is 00:12:40 What I had been learning, what I watched my parents do, not fortune telling, but they don't necessarily have this like clearly articulated intention for it to be not a Ouija, but like basically like a Ouija but where you're using it to communicate with the dead or the spirit is beyond. So that's never been a thing I've seen my family members use the E-Chane specifically before. We have other mediums for that. So at the time I was in college. My grandmother had passed. My mom had said, no, you can't stop finals week.

Starting point is 00:13:15 You're in college. This is a really important time in your life. You can't just stop everything, upended, and go to Taiwan. And at the time, the funeral rights for those who are Buddhists, it's 49 days. And so it's a 49 day funeral rights. Mom's like, nope, that's not happening. You're staying in school, finish school, all of that. And so because I had a lot of, I felt like unfinished business with my grandmother.

Starting point is 00:13:37 You know, I think we had a difficult relationship, not in a bad way, but just in that cultural barrier kind of way, where I wasn't at the level of, you know, filial piety and respect that I would have wanted her to remember me by. I was very Americanized. And so I was like, well, I have plenty of time when I'm a little bit older. I can then really show my grandmother, I'm really Asian. I know my culture and all of that. And then I never had that opportunity. So I don't know what her last memories of me are. And so at that time, I really felt like I needed something to communicate with my grandmother. And so what I had, of course, was the aging book of changes. And so I use that as a form of mediumship. And you do that through invocation. You set the right ceremonial

Starting point is 00:14:19 space. And then you have that intention to connect to a particular ancestor. And then the words that come through the oracle are your grandmother's words or the ancestor's words. And so I thought I made this up. This was totally my own thing. Then, of course, many years later, oh, I did not make it up. You know, this is a long established tradition among Taoist practitioners in Asia. You know, I was just intuitively feeling out something that has a long established tradition. But yes, it's absolutely a tool that can be used in mediumship, in particular, communicating with ancestors. Thank you for sharing that. The whole book gives this context. It gives a personal connection and it gives a lot of historical and mythological context for understanding.

Starting point is 00:15:05 I wonder if just even sharing, like, what is that source that the itching flows from? Well, if I knew that answer, I'd probably be enlightened. I wouldn't be here I'd be off in some paradise. Not sure I can answer that with any level of, you know, substance. But I can... In cosmology, right? Like, you know, in whatever way you want to describe, bringing us to, like, origins. source of where it branches off from on the intellectual level and then on the spiritual level.

Starting point is 00:15:37 I think it's really interesting where there is that more intellectualized view or philosophicalized view of the I Ching in the West, but I get where it comes from because the I Ching system at its most fundamental form, it's mathematics, it's permutations, its combinations, it's pure mathematics. It can be explained through mathematics. And it's actually mathematically perfect. It's very cool how that system works. It's calculus and even it inspired calculus here in the West as well. And so because of that, there is this Western belief that you tie mathematics and algebra, trigonometry and calculus to sort of, this is the left brain.

Starting point is 00:16:20 I know you can't use that anymore. Like there's a concept of it's purely logic. Science. Whereas in the East, it's a little bit more fluid. it. There isn't that same sense. And so even though it is mathematics based, we see that as more of an expression or emanation of a divinity or divine presence. So if something is mathematically perfect, it is quote unquote proof of God in a sense. And so we do have a very spiritual perspective of something that is mathematical perfection. And so we use this concept of, well, it's a mathematical representation

Starting point is 00:16:53 of the divine. Therefore, we can use it to commune with the divine to understand the divine. And divine. And that's essentially what the E. Ching, divination, communion with the divine. In terms of what is emanating that, I think it's really interesting what Crowley said, Alistair Crowley. He said the sort of the spirit intelligence behind the taro is Hermes. And so there's a trickster energy to it. His words, not mine. Whereas he said that the E. Ching has, it seems like a spirit intelligence that does not have an axe to grind with you. It's less rooted in the mundane world. aspect. It doesn't interfere as much with our everyday lives and therefore it has almost like a hollowed objective view. So if you think of mathematics and you think of this concept of communing with

Starting point is 00:17:42 the Tao itself, it's a very non-personified concept of the divine that you're communing with rather than personifying deity and then speaking to deity through your personified representation of deity. And because you're going straight to that concept of an unperson, like it's not human, right, that concept of communicating with that concept, a mathematical concept of God, I think that's why it's a little bit, it can feel more objective. So coming from that doubt into the binary or the binariness of this either or, there's a broken line and a solid line. There's an either orness. I think there's even a diagram in your book, which I appreciate so much for the visual, the beauty of photos, the images. Almost every page has a picture on it.

Starting point is 00:18:39 It's all brought to life. I think there's a diagram that sort of shows that flowing from the yin yang down through the elements, this sort of almost, I don't know, I imagine it like trickling. Like there's a source of like in these streams or whatever that are coming from that source. just in that describing of the yin and yang, which even within a binary, then, there is that part of the other within it. So it's clearly not separate, but how they kind of come down into separate form identity and then down to the hexagram, the trigrams and the hexagrams himself. Yeah, that was a delineation of the creation myth or our belief in how the universe was created.

Starting point is 00:19:21 So the yin and yang, this concept of a binary zeros and ones. So to begin with, that is nothing that would be conceived or materialized here on the worldly level that we live on. So it's like a binary code, the code that is the fundamentals of all computing systems and our virtual reality. But nothing is just a zero, nothing is just a one necessarily. So this idea of the very, very primordial concept of how something was produced, the zeros and ones is the binary code. That binary code, if you pair it, you get four. Those are the four faces of gods and shang. And it's very interesting how you find a lot of correlations in Western esotericism as well. But if you take the binary and then you do the pairing, it gets into the four.

Starting point is 00:20:05 The four become a trinity. Those trinity becomes the eight trigrams. It's just basic permutation. And then if you stack the eight trigrams, you get a total of 64 hexagrams, the idea of six lines of code. And then those six lines of code form a circle. this cycle or mandala of a 64 that repeats itself over and over again. And so the fundamental philosophy there is that we live in a cycle of changes and might manifest in slightly different ways because of how we interact with the core archetypes, but that history repeats itself essentially in a cycle of 64. Just even reading the four faces, right, the four faces of the elder yin younger yin younger yang elder yang and in the book it just kind of spells it out is like

Starting point is 00:20:58 those mating with yin or yang to create the elements and how one creates earth and one creates mountain and so even in this exploration that feeling into how do i know earth different than mountain I think for me too, coming from tropical Western astrology and the elements of fire, earth, air and water that repeat themselves in a cycle, mountain seems like it's a part of Earth. And so if you're able to speak to some of the approaching the relationship with the five elements, which are the five phases that go through that are the wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. And then there's the eights that sort of are based in those, but then also expand on those and what their relationship between those two are. Well, for earth and mountain, one way that I think of Earth as the trigram, it's underground Earth. You know, and so instead of thinking of Earth in a more, I guess, not superficial, but I think we're thinking of it in a very visual, like I go outside soil, you know, the dirt outside Earth.

Starting point is 00:22:08 That's, I think of the Trigram Earth as underground. So that's why it's often associated with the underworld. But whereas water is, because it's that yin energy, that dominant yin, it's underwater. And so there's that darkness of deep underground and deep into the depths of the oceans in the water. That's a very deep level of water compared to, for example, lake, which is the marshes, a shallow level of water, which is a lot more fertile. And so if you have shallow levels of water, a marshlands, it's going to be extremely fertile. So the energy from that's really, really different from the water that's really, really deep. the primordial chaos water.

Starting point is 00:22:44 That's how I see, whereas mountain is high. Like, mountains very, very high. And it's all, to me, it's very, very different. I don't think of necessarily as a soil earth. Like, I think it's different from the classical, neoclassical four elements that you find in the West. In terms of the Ushing, the five changing phases, it's the five changing phases,

Starting point is 00:23:04 expresses five ways that the trigrams, which represent aspects of what you are going to see in material, reality, how they change from one to the other. And so if you think of computer programming, the virtual reality, what you see on screen, there's going to be different aspects of different types of code will create different categories of what you're seeing in virtual reality, in our material reality. But then we're going one step back in the philosophy and saying, okay, well, how did this change into that?

Starting point is 00:23:34 How did A become B? How does the trigram earth become the trigram mountain? And how does one hexagram change into the next hexagram? And what we're saying is the explanation for that are these five changing phases, five phases of change. So that's how I see them as different. One represents energy and the other represents the byproduct of energy. One represents energy and one represents the byproduct of energy.

Starting point is 00:24:01 Do you want to giving an example just to explore that? So for example, metal is one of the, one of the Ushin five phases of change. And so metal is what drives the creation of heaven, hexagram one. Well, first of let's start with the trigram heaven. Okay. So it drives the change into the three, three yang lines. And so that's a very strong light, a very strong active force. It's the force of creation rather than the force of receptivity. And so metal in a more mundane when we think of as tools, weaponry, music creation. Music is associated with mathematics.

Starting point is 00:24:48 So there's that connection between numerology and mathematics, trinities, things like trigonometry and music. And so there's that idea of that being something that creates that first trigram heaven. And then when you stack or double the triagram heaven, you get the hexagram one. And that is the first sort of the dragon, the entrance of the dragon. And this dragon is the most potent form, the most dynamic idea of creation. And so that's kind of how you will see the metal become, for example, trigram heaven and then hexagram heaven. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:25:25 I had mentioned to you, I was the other day, I was in the chocolate dragon, which is a cafe in Berkeley. And I knew that we were going to have this conversation and even exploring. the connection between the time telling and the layers of significance and meaning as were coming into the year of the Wood Yang Dragon. And in Chocolate Dragon, there was a book that was called Just Dragon with a dragon on the cover. It was published in the 70s. And it talked about that first, the hexagram and the solid lines, which, you know, for listeners who may be familiar with Eaching, the relationship.

Starting point is 00:26:06 of the solid line corresponding to Yang. And for those of you who aren't familiar yet, of course, Benabelle's book is a great way to really have, you know, in some ways I'd say this encyclopedia, but I also felt like it was this cookbook with all the ingredients, like all the things that you would want to have for like a feast. So the solid lines then being the expression of this Yang energy solid, and the broken lines being yin. And in the language and when I first, myself as a young teenager first found that the symbol

Starting point is 00:26:46 representing the yin and yang, anything that I read or came across, the yin just felt like all the language was like, wait, I don't think I want to, I don't want to be weak. Like that doesn't seem like all the associations, at least in their translation into English, had this negative connotation would say like a lot of reframing for understanding the immense value of both together but also you know on its own so even a broken broken line feels like oh wait broken broken broken's bad like the things that are equated in that kind of binary duality of good and bad of it seems like something that's broken you don't want something's broken you want it like whole so those are really interesting perspectives i i don't share those perspectives

Starting point is 00:27:29 So for example, I guess it's a translation where we use the word broken line. In Chinese, I've never, it's not like the direct translation isn't broken line. And so we don't have that same connotation. So that connotation is just completely non-existent in my culture. And so it's a very Western construct you call the Yin line broken line. And I can see why, because it's visually, that's just how it looks. I see it as, well, if you have the, there is a pattern. through. And so if something passes through, it can't break. And so it's almost the complete opposite

Starting point is 00:28:06 of broken lying to me. And then if you look at all of Taoism, the Tao Te Ching, anything you look at when it's talking about true strength and true resilience, it has to have like be like water. If you're like water, you're at your pen ultimate level of power. And so I think that's something that might be a little bit different. We don't see receptivity and divine in the concept of that as weakness. It's receptivity and it's a different form of strength. So hexagram one and hexagram two that six lines of yang and six lines of yin, it's one and two because it shows the two sides of strength, the two sides of penultimate power. If you only have one and not the other, you don't have omnipotent power or knowledge or wisdom. And so I've never seen one as like a profound

Starting point is 00:28:56 level of weakness. It's both two sides of the same coin of power. I just wanted to because I was like, oh, I've never really seen it that way. Yeah, thank you for things get translated, like lost in translation. Totally lost in translation and filtered through a cultural lens that puts anything that is associated with the feminine or a softness, gentleness, and the gentle strength within that that has degraded that for how long. Thank you for setting the record straight. beautifully. What appears so visually simple as lines and if not broken line, a way to describe the yin representation? We just use yin yang. That is our, that's language that we use. And

Starting point is 00:29:43 the both types are yow, they're types of lines, not even line. Like yow, it's unit. It's like calling them units, you know. And so there's two different fundamental types of units is essentially what we're saying. And then one unit we just label in and then one label one unit we label young. And I think when you're trying to explain the system to somebody who's not native to that system, you have to import a brand new set of vocabulary. And then I think the thing with language is language is absolutely driven by cultural understanding. And so the cultural understanding isn't there. It's really hard to translate certain words. Because instead of just one word that needs to be translated, you have to

Starting point is 00:30:25 translate a whole body of knowledge. And so I think without that, the simple is, okay, well, this is a broken line because it's literally descriptive of what you're seeing on the page. But I guess when you're using like an eastern lens, we don't say it's a broken line. That's just ing. And then we understand ing, but then I think in English, you have to now go that extra level of explaining what's in or what's yin, right? So.

Starting point is 00:30:52 Yeah. Thank you. I'm the language piece of it. And I think that for so long, I had seen the hexagrams, or it's just been on the periphery in the field of vision. And it's like any language to, it's not even like cracking a code. It's like, what is an entry point for being in relationship with a system that is embedded with so much of the cosmology and understanding and cultural references that you share a lot of in the book?

Starting point is 00:31:21 So it's really a compilation for going deeper. with the curiosity. I'll get back to the dragon. So this is a passage from a book called the dragon by Francis Huxley that draws a correlation between the moon cycle and the dragon cycle and specifically the first hexagram. The river of light basking in the abyss of heaven is the genius of our world, and it continues to lay its egg on earth at the start of every new year. It also does this at the start of every month, inso much as the moon is the dragon's most precious wish-fulfilling jewel. Reborn, however many times it dies. The dragon cycle of spirit and flesh is the same that governs the transformation of the elements into each other. It described the first hexagram.

Starting point is 00:32:10 So this usually translates as the creative and is composed of the ideogram showing the sun penetrating the jungle with its rays, which draw up the hidden vapors, the hexagram itself, describing the six stages by which the dragon ascends. And I'm wondering if that's just a way to lead into speaking of the dragon and the dragon's relationship within the I Ching and this entering into and coming upon a time for the year of the dragon. Well, what's interesting is hexagram one when you have six lines of yang that's it corresponds in terms of time with the summer solstice and then we'll get back to the lunar solar calendar and looking at the sun and the moon and then the trigram heaven which is the foundation of the hexagram one that corresponds to the full moon

Starting point is 00:33:03 or the harvest moon so i think that's really interesting and i love how the iching because of the way the text is is is written you know there's so many different ways to interpret it and to find your own sense of meaning and to find your own metaphors in it. So I do love that perspective that was provided. And even some things that you've said about the I Ching and other interviews that I listened to that it is like a mirror. And that to me is like, that's how I relate to the moon. The moon is like the mirror that we look into or we look to for whatever messages or help

Starting point is 00:33:40 or support or healing that way we may be calling in, that that can be offered in this mirror like reflecting back to us kind of way. So you shared something on Instagram, the hexagram. And again, I looked at it and I was like, wow, I have such limited understanding that it was just this world opening up that I feel like this attuning even just senses and visual to these deeper layers that are embedded with something on the surface, the simplicity of it that goes so deep. So you shared about the dragon and the relationship with Hexagram 43. And I'm wondering if you can describe what is that relationship and things to kind of know in this approach of this particular year.

Starting point is 00:34:37 It would be the year of the wood dragon. So it's more specific to say wood dragon that corresponds with hexagram 43. And what's interesting is so dragon gears are usually considered, you know, stream lucky. It's this idea of creation, innovation, research development, a lot of that, that creative force that should be happening. But then when you look at the alchemical, the alchemical connective correspondence between having a, the hexagram 43, which was all metal, very pure metal. And then that metal of the hexagram interacting with the wood, with the wood and metal defeats or dilutes and debilitates the wood energy. And so there's this idea of always taking one step forward and then being pushed back two steps. There's this idea of

Starting point is 00:35:25 there's, for every great innovation that comes this year, something more negative will come as a consequence or byproduct of that great innovation, that great leap forward. And so it becomes a question of cost benefit analysis, this great leap forward in innovation or advancement that we have taken as a collective society, is it worth it considering the byproduct and consequence of that advancement? So that's going to be sort of the theme that defines this year. Interesting. So this goes back to, I think, the Song Dynasty, where you're starting to see a lot more Buddhist

Starting point is 00:36:03 influences and how we interpret Taoism and also the Eiching itself. And so in Buddhist and esoteric Buddhism, there is a fundamental belief in multiple galaxies, multiple universes, like many different universes. And so the presumption is that the concept of the Eiching is a fundamental truth that would apply to any system, any universe. And so how do you anchor the 64 Heciching? to a specific universe. And so what we believe is there's this particular arrangement of the eight trigrams that is unique to Earth, or to different planets, this one's to Earth. And so what you do is because the lunar solar calendar that is as old as its own dynasty, which is the same age essentially as the E Ching, is a 60-year cycle. It's a 60-year cycle based on tracking the sun

Starting point is 00:36:58 and the moon. And so a long time ago, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our, week was a 10-day week. And the reason we have a 10-day week is because for every degree of the sun, you know how, if you know astrology, every day is one degree of the movement of the sun along the square path. And so if you do 10 degrees, that's one deacon ruler, the deconids. And so what we do is the deacon ruler system that you find in Babylonian and Egyptian astrology. It's also in the oldest Chinese calendar system, which is why we tracked our calendar by 10-day weeks, because each deacon ruler, you know, is that one week, and then that's the 300, it forms that 360 degrees of the circle, the solar path. And so we have a 10 day week that we use the 10 heavenly stems to track,

Starting point is 00:37:43 and then we have the lunar cycle of 12 months, 12 moons, you know, 12 lunar cycles, and that corresponds with the solar path, the one revolution of the sun. And so the 12 cycles of the moon represent the 12 earthly stems. And then if you do the math for that, that gets to 16. years. And so you have a 60 year calendar. For anyone who's over 60, then they would have lived through that 60 year repeating cycle of... 1964, Civil Rights Act. And then that leaves four hexagrams out of the 64 hexagrams. So in this theory, you have to find the four hexagrams in the book of change in the E. Ching that anchors the system, that architectural blueprint to your particular

Starting point is 00:38:31 universe. And so we have four that were particularly, I can't remember it off the top of my head, but there's four that angers it to Earth, and then you take the other 60, and you superimpose it over the 60 year calendar. And if you do that, when you get to the year that corresponds with the wood dragon based on that sun and moon alignment, it corresponds with hexagram 43. Wow. My mind, the wheels and the gears are turning. They're turning. Thank you for laying that out because I've come across just the heavenly stems and the earthly stems and one of my questions like, okay, why the 10? Deck and rulers.

Starting point is 00:39:11 Everyone who does a Hellenistic astrology will be familiar with the deck and ruler system. And that's what we use for the 10 heavenly stems. Beautiful. The moons then, so the calendar and what you're describing that, the solely lunar calendar. So there's so many calendars and ways of time keeping and time telling and the Gregorian calendar that is, it's so unimaginative. I think that's like in just describing like, wow, it really puts a box around everything and doesn't refer to nature in any way or give us some of those cues about endings and beginnings. So what I'm interested in my work in exploring, like, how to shift that understanding of time, especially for those of us who have lineages, and then here's this word broken, right,

Starting point is 00:40:07 that have been separated from an understanding of time as a part of cycles, and the moon can help us to see that and experience that on a very visceral level. I'm wondering if just in describing me the timekeeping and the connection perhaps of the system of the of the Eching and hexagrams as a timekeeper, where the moon might play into that in lunar timekeeping? Well, the lunar solar calendar is an agricultural calendar. So you begin with the four anchor points of the equinoxes and the solstices, which is mathematically observed. And so then from there we have 24 points. So it's a 24 seasonal point agricultural calendar. And it's mapped out to the moon.

Starting point is 00:41:03 And so some of our holidays, for example, the last harvest in autumn, if you think of an agricultural calendar that would be applicable to China. there's a late autumn like September, early October-ish date, which is that full moon, that is considered the last harvest of the year. That's when you go out into the field. That's the last harvest that you're going to get. You have to start preserving everything and whatever you've got. That's going to define your winter until spring.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And so it's a day of celebration, right? It's going to be a cause for celebration. So there's this interesting connection that you find among all agricultural societies that connects the harvest, the concept of harvest with the moon, with a full moon specifically, although we get a little more specific. So what I find interesting, and I found this to be anecdotally true when I garden as well. So if you sow seeds during a full moon, they grow faster, but then the longevity of the plant isn't as good. But if you sow seeds during the new moon, they grow a lot slower, but then the longevity of the plant itself, like how it recital.

Starting point is 00:42:12 and replenishes year after year, especially if it's a perennial, is a lot stronger. And it's going to yield a plant that is going to bear, for example, trees will yield more fruit than if you sow a seed for a tree during the fullness. It's just really interesting things that you see that I wouldn't mean, like to put it, like our ancestors knew this because they had thousands of years of experience that they passed down. And this was their livelihood. It was like life or death to them. So they understood these things. And is it to superstition? I don't know. Like, is it a scientific? I don't know, but I mean, it's oral tradition. And I think if it's something that's life and death base, it's part shamanic in the idea that you do need superstitions because there's so much uncertainty.

Starting point is 00:42:53 Even today in 2023, 2024, like whether or not I'm going to have a good harvest with my plants, it's such a, like, look of the draw. And it's just, we're just lucky and privileged that I don't have to, you know, survive on how many fruits and vegetables my plants yield. But, you know, it's still a bummer when they yield nothing. And it's just so interesting how even today, there's such uncertainty around the crop harvest. And so imagine if that was a life or death situation. And so you do kind of bring in a little bit of that shamanic superstitions traditions, and you also bring in, you know, thousands of years of agricultural science. And so that's kind of where it comes from. But yet, moon phases is very much a part of how people dictate their agricultural calendar, which is why

Starting point is 00:43:39 the calendar system is absolutely connected to moon phases. And then because the I Ching shows that Yin and Yang lines, I mean, it's very visible and visceral where you look up at the sky, full moon, evenings is going to be a lot brighter, right? And then if you think about the summer solstice, evening's also brighter. And then if you think about the new moon, it's going to be a darker evening. And then you think about the winter, the, you know, the winter solstice also darker. And so it's almost not, like, it's very visual how they're describing the correlations. And are there certain hexagrams that map then onto the different phases? You've described the, you know, the ultimate yang of full moon and then the yin of the new moon.

Starting point is 00:44:24 Yeah. So Earth, which is three yin lines would be the new moon. And then heaven, which is the three yang lines would be the full moon. And then you have thunder, fire, and lake. which represent that phase. So there's eight trigrams, right? And so they represent the eight phases of the moon, the eight points. And so if you have, you have thunder, fire, and lake, it's expansion energy,

Starting point is 00:44:46 it's the idea of expansion, expanses, and proliferation. And then what's interesting is, so in, like, Western as, like, sort of astrological traditions, we think of the waning gibbous moon as related to, like, dissemination of news, media. So there's this idea, you were born under a waning, gibbous moon. You're probably good at writing. They're good for journalism, media folks, things like that. And what I think is so fascinating is our correspondence with the waning gibbous moon is wind,

Starting point is 00:45:15 which is this idea of dissemination. It's the spreading of seeds, this idea of sowing so that you have capital reaping, things like that. So that concept of dissemination, the idea of capital and ideas disseminating is correlated to that idea of wind, the waning gibbis. And then you have water and mountain, which is the waning crescent phases that get down to the new moon. So those dark moon phases is about contraction. They're darker.

Starting point is 00:45:44 They're more yin lines. And so that's how you see the eight trigams corresponding with the eight phases of the moon. And then if you want to talk about esoteric philosophies of the moon phases and the 64 hexagrams, there are also hexagrams in routes of 12 that correspond with the lunar calendar. So the 12 month and then 13 moon cycle. So you know how we have the leap years? That's where the leaves come in. How it's, I don't know the whole figure out how I can't figure it out exactly, but I do know sometimes it's a 12 moon cycle, other times it's a 13 moon cycle.

Starting point is 00:46:17 And that's the reason we have leap years. Yeah. I love that. My birth moon is the disseminating gibbis. So that description of that and wanting to like kind of like wanting to share and teach of like here's all these things that to share them in a way that then they plant seeds for other people. And that's my my greatest hope for this podcast too, is that it plants seeds for people to like, oh, plant that into their own, like the soil of their own life and see where that grows for

Starting point is 00:46:47 them. I'm like losing words because of bringing in the lunar phases with just all of that is, yeah, even for me, a seed planted that I will hope that grows more in my life. Want to hear something funny? Yes, please. Yes, yes, yes. So the moon phases, also correspond with beauty, like in terms of beauty routines. And so like there's like an old wife's tail, never cut your hair during a new moon. And the reason for that is because if you cut your hair during a new moon, the likelihood of it growing out, the way you don't want your hair to grow out is more likely. Whereas if you cut your hair during a waning moon, it's more likely to have control of the style. So you can control the style of your hair and how it grows around your face

Starting point is 00:47:31 better during a waning moon, but during a new moon, it's going to sprout like chaotically and you have less control over how your hair grows. It's just a funny little thing. I found it to be true. Again, I don't know if it's just like my brain or what, but like conditioning, but I find that every time I've cut my hair during a new moon, it's true, the style doesn't grow out the way I want it to. I have more control over my hairstyle of my cut during a waning, funny little beauty tip. And my approach has always been like, okay, well, I want to, I just want to see this for myself. Some of it is lifetimes and generations passed down. So you're like, okay, I guess I can only observe this much in my own lifetime. But to have those kinds of notices and to play with it,

Starting point is 00:48:12 you know, I think that's the experimentation in play that can come. So I've been publishing a moon calendar. This is the 10th year. The first year was 2014. The new moon was on winter solstice. I didn't know that that was a, you know, looking back, the synchronicity and the sort of that only happens every 19 years, like the metonic cycle where the phase lands on the same day. I didn't know that that wasn't like a usual thing, that that correspondence really of, you know. The sun and the moon. Yeah, that yin, the sun and the moon coming together and the ultimate depth of the dark before the beginning of the light that it just landed on the same thing.

Starting point is 00:48:56 The metaphorical womb, the metaphorical cave. Yes, all of that, that would be this place and the starting point for the moon is my calendar. Some years, I have to fit another moon in there. I have to, like, add pages to the calendar, and then other years I have to take away. And if you really study the moon, you know the majority there's 12 moons. There's 29 and a half days times 12. It's 11 days less than the solar year. And so that was the key that I found.

Starting point is 00:49:22 It's 11 days less. So after three years, those 11 days will catch up to, you know, like 33, a whole other cycle. So a whole other lunar cycle then gets inserted every two to three years because of this 11-day discrepancy between 12 lunar cycles and then the 365 and a quarter solar days. So the calendar I create starts the new moon closest right after winter solstice, the second new moon after winter solstice being the lunar new year, why that particular moon is chosen out of all the other ones? So the first moon after the winter solstice is too dark.

Starting point is 00:50:05 So that's sort of like the depths of winter. And that's the reason for that because there's a winter solstice. And then that new moon there, it's still really dark in terms of that potent yin. And then the first sort of sign of spring, which although it's not visible, but we know it's deep underground that first sprout of, is that that second, the next new moon over. And that's the reason that one becomes lunar month one. I know that because every time I do the Gregorian calendar,

Starting point is 00:50:31 in January, when I try to superimpose the Chinese calendar, it's always like lunar month 12 in January. And then in February or something like that, then it's the lunar month one. It's really interesting how we have that overlap. Yeah, right. And seeing when anything is lunar base, there's this shifting. And so there's this,

Starting point is 00:50:52 an invitation to be more flexible, really, because it's not marked to one day on the Gregorian calendar where it starts. I just feel like there's so much effort even within timekeeping that is around control and boxing in that when the moon comes into play, you're asked to be fluid in a very different way. And I just see with my very novice entry into the world of the eaching is this invitation into seeing that even though there's this binary of either or of the lines themselves, that there is, it's almost like, I don't know, it felt like this fractal when you can take the most simple building blocks, what can be what's created from there. Yeah, even though it's defined within 64, it feels like it's just, there's so much, each hexagram,

Starting point is 00:51:44 it feels like there's just a world within each one. Right. Because if you do the 64 times six, so it's actually a 384, there's 384, divinatory, you know, like revelations that come out of that 64. And so there's the idea that every hexagram, even within itself, the six lines tell a cohesive narrative within itself. And so that's, it gets really into. So then you get into different types of interpretations, different schools of thought,

Starting point is 00:52:11 where people really get into the granular in deep dive into how to interpret each and every one of the lines of the six lines of each and every hexagram. It's endless. It's more than one lifetime. But I would say, yeah, don't let that deter anybody from just beginning because, yeah, there's such beauty in each one. I wanted to wrap up and just end with the hexagram you chose for the cover of the book. So I will say when I first received this, I didn't even read that as a hexagram.

Starting point is 00:52:44 It looked like this design element. And to me, that speaks of often when we don't know something. We don't know that we don't know it. And we're not able actually to perceive it until I pulled this. I have the Dow Oracle. I pulled hexagram 30 on one of my first readings. And I was like, wait, that's actually on the cover of the book. And I'm wondering if you'd be willing to speak to that choice and maybe the significance

Starting point is 00:53:10 of that hexagram to you. Funny enough, I didn't choose it. And the initial hexagram, I think it was 63 or 64 that they put. And I think it wasn't on purpose. I think the designer just put Yiren Yang lines, they thought looked pretty. But I was like, well, you know, if I'm writing a book on the Eaching, it needs to be a little bit more meaningful. And then there's a go, which one would you like? So I gave them a list, a short list of various hexagrams that I really like.

Starting point is 00:53:37 And I explained what each of the hexagrams meant. So in a very short form way. So hexagram 30, it's about enlightening, in light. other, it's about being a pillar of light, which actually was my least favorite on my short list of favorites. So it was the one I really didn't want them to choose, but it was still my short list of favorite hexagrams, not for myself, but just generally, like in a very generic general way, it was one of my top favorite in my portfolio favorites, but it was my least favorite in that portfolio. So there were a lot of other hexagrams that would have preferred that they chose.

Starting point is 00:54:11 one's related to the collective, one's related to a cauldron, concepts of like everyone coming together, more collectivist philosophy rather than like one standing out as I am the pillar of enlightenment, you know, that that kind of concept. I wanted a more collectivist view, like feel to the hexagram they chose for the cover, but they went with this one. And I was like, wow, all the ones that I gave, you literally chose my least favorite, but it's fine. And so that ended up on the cover. it wouldn't have been my preference. Well, thank you so much for this. Anything else that you would like to share?

Starting point is 00:54:47 I've been at work on illustrating a reconstructed Ataya tarot deck. So, you know how it's a very different system from the Rider-Waid Smith that thought of Territi-Marcy. And so I haven't seen that many sort of modern takes on the Atea. It seems like it stopped in like late 1800s and we never evolved the way, for example, in the writer-weetsmith, there's like millions at this point, like millions of iterations of the writer, Wade Smith, and the less than millions of the Marseille and the thought. And so I was like, oh, let's work on the Atea. And so that's an illustration or art project I've been working on

Starting point is 00:55:19 for the past few years. But I think right now, I don't know. Like it feels a little bit like, I think, you know, almost kind of like postpartum depression that someone has? So I find that after a huge project that I put out into the world, it's not depression, but I go through this phase of just kind of like not like feeling directionless, you know, like not quite sure where you fit into everything and anything anymore. And so I'm kind of going through that phase after you produced something. And so I think in the past, I've kind of let it overtake me and I've learned because I've done so many projects that you just kind of have to lean into it. Like you just have to coast it, you know, you just have to allow yourself to feel the emotions and not to really feel the

Starting point is 00:56:08 need to get rid of it or to overcome it. Instead of trying to overcome it, you just have to lean into it and see where it plays out. So that's kind of where I'm at. And the result of that is I don't have any projects that I'm necessarily working on at the moment. It's more about just feeling feelings. Yeah. Thank you so much for naming that. I have experienced that and that feeling of, wait, I'm supposed to be so happy. I'm supposed to be whatever in that feeling of like that purpose and where all of the energy and attention was focused onto has has a completion and has a life of its own. So it's, yeah, beautiful to just hear you. There is pressure from society of like, well, what's next? What's next? And to really, whew, let that be. There is one other thing,

Starting point is 00:56:55 if you have just a couple more. I meant to weave in because I know for people who are listening, a lot of them who also work with human design. And I know that it's, again, something that is for me still, very tip of the iceberg. There's so many layers in that, the hexagrams are drawn into that, too. There's so many systems that are all brought together in one place. What I don't know a lot about human design. What I do know about it is it is attempting to bring in a particular perspective of the Kabbalah, of I Ching, of various systems that have long established cultural traditions. And I don't know a lot of. about it. I think it's creative and innovative when people find something in other cultures' traditions

Starting point is 00:57:45 and resonate so strongly with it that they want to find ways to assimilate it into something that they've created for themselves. So I think that's a really beautiful thing and I want to celebrate that. In terms of what it implies, it's meaning, like all of that, I don't know enough to really comment about that. But I do appreciate that people resonate so strongly with cultural traditions like Kabbalah and Eaching, that they want to find ways to assimilate it into what they're doing for themselves. So that's a really cool and should be celebrated exercise. I would recommend for anybody working with that who really wants to go deep and deeper into the understanding and roots, like what is the Eaching and as it's the Oracle, the practical guide to the book of changes,

Starting point is 00:58:34 and its shamanic origins to get a hold of Benabelle's book. And I would say if you're interested in the Eiching and human design, there's a much longer established tradition of correlating the Eiching hexagrams with acupunctureal points. Like that's a very well-established process. Traditional Chinese medicine and the intersection between TCM and Eiching is also a long-established tradition. There's like books, volumes and volumes of books written on the subject that go back at least

Starting point is 00:59:04 a thousand years. And so if human design is of interest, I would strongly encourage people to look into traditional Chinese medicine and eating or acupuncture points in itching. So, so vast. I feel so full right now. Like I have literally, I'm like, oh, like that digesting after such a delicious meal of like so, so much. I want to just thank you, Benabelle, for sharing for all. Yeah, my true honor and pleasure for what you share that comes from, that just feels like comes from just such a generous and beautiful place of offering. And I don't know how you do it because looking at what it must have taken to organize and compile and bring everything together in one place, wanting to appreciate that and putting yourself in that position to be the one, bringing that through into this earthly form. tangible resource.

Starting point is 01:00:07 Thank you so much. It means a lot to me since it was a book very close to my heart. So it means a lot to hear that. Beautiful. Well, thank you. So anyone wanting to find Benabelle's work can go to your website. I can put all everything into the show notes and you have a YouTube channel and just I love how you follow your passion and where you're at and share from that place.

Starting point is 01:00:28 Right, which means it's kind of all over the place. Which is, it's fine. It's what it is. No, no cohesive branding whatsoever. I know. The judgment of it should be some other way is definitely the external pressure to, yeah, have everything be like nice and nice and tidy. But yeah, thank you again.

Starting point is 01:00:47 Thank you so much. Thank you. If you like this podcast, please subscribe, leave a review, share it with a friend, all the things to help it reach more people who will benefit in some meaningful way. I'm April and I'll be with you next time on Between the Moon. moon.

Between the Moon - 17. Unbroken: I Ching and Cycles of Change with Benebell Wen

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