Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - A History of Queer Women

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

One thing’s for certain, queer people have always been a part of society. The language may not have always been there to describe them in all of their wonderful forms, and the history books may not have always told their stories, but they have always been there. To celebrate the start of Pride month, Kate is joined by author Kirsty Loehr, who’s book A Short History of Queer Women is here to shine a spotlight on some of the marvellous people and their lives. From the woman who’s thought to be the OG lesbian in Ancient Greece, to more modern intersectional gay black feminists via a runaway lesbian pirate in the 18th century, it’s important their stories are heard. Produced and edited by Stuart Beckwith. Senior Producer Charlotte Long. Lyre music provided by Michael Levy: https://www.youtube.com/@MichaelLevyMusic  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. My lovely bit twigsters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here, as I always am, with your fair do's warning. Kate, what is a fair do's warning? Well, I'll tell you. A fair do's warning is the warning that we have to give you at the top of each show to make sure that you know what you are in for,

to make sure that you are prepped, primed, and ready for the horrors that lie ahead. The fair do's warning is us protect. you from yourselves and certainly from us. So here it is. This is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults in an adulty way about a range of adult subjects. And you should be an adult too. If you're not, get out now. If you are of a sensitive disposition, get out now.

We're actually looking at the history of queer women today. So we will absolutely be getting into some rudy, nudie, naughty territory. Wouldn't it be disappointing if we didn't? But if after all of that you continue to hang around with us, then you really have nobody to blame but yourself if you do get offended by this, because fair dues, you were warned. With me, betwixters, we are going on holiday to a Greek island. We learnt it, after all.

Well, no, I certainly have. But it's not just any holiday, mind you. This is very much a historically based holiday. And this one takes us back in time to round it. about 600 BCE on the island of Lesbos. We are here to drink some lovely wine and to meet the legendary Sappho, the famed poet, musician, and as many historians will tell you, the OG lesbian. Oh yeah. Of course there were lesbians before her, of course there were, we know that, but Sappho is the first one we have documented

evidence for. Hmm. And I was just reading one of her poems actually, a poem about giving her favourite instrument a good strumming, the liar. I took my liar and said, come now my heavenly tortoise shell, become a speaking instrument. Wow, that's some pretty steamy stuff if you're a liar. Ah, lovely. Serenade as Sappho, if you would be so kind. Beautiful liar playing, just delightful, absolutely extraordinary fingering going on there. On today's episode, we will be going betwixt the sheets with Sappho and many other queer women in history. We are going to be finding out about their lives, their experiences and why it is so important that these stories are told and keep being told. What do you look for a man?

Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you I make perfect confidence of whatever my boss needs by just turning enough and pushing the button Yes, social courtesy does make a difference Goodness, I have nothing to do with it, Dary. Oh, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister.

Although language may not have always been available to describe queer people in the past, there is absolutely no doubting that the people who made up the queer community were always there. However, it has been that they've defined themselves. Of course they have. And whilst their stories have not always been in the traditional history books, as we will find out, representation is a very important thing. It can help you validate who you are and your place in the world,

which is why it's fantastic that today's guest, Kirsty Law, wrote a short history of queer women. It is a marvellous book and I thoroughly enjoyed giving it a good thumbing. Come with us as we travel back through time to explore some of the amazing people in Kirsty's book, people that have been unashamedly queer in societies that just weren't ready for them. From runaway pirates to intersectional black feminists, I am ready if you are Betwixters. And welcome to Betwixta Sheets. It's only Kirsty Law. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you?

Beyond excited to be talking to you, the author of History of Queer Women, which I have been very fortunate enough to read, and it is a magnificent and super fun account of queer women in history. Well, you endorsed it for me, didn't you? So thank you very much. I liked it that much. Honestly, it was so much fun to read. What was it that made you want to write that book? There was two reasons, really, for why I wanted to write it. I think the first one was I'm 36 years old, which in terms of technology, it's just, you know, it's ancient really, isn't it?

I mean, 36 is young, you know, but like when you speak to kids in their 20s, it's just that it's a completely different world. Like an apps is completely different. So as a child, I didn't have the internet. I didn't have that at school, didn't have it in the house. And I realized I was a lesbian when I was about 15, but I think before that, I definitely, knew something was up, something was going on, but I had no idea what, you know what I mean, I just didn't know what was going on. And I had nothing really to compare it to that. I'm from Manchester, which is a big gay-friendly city, but really where I was from on a council estate,

one of the roughest council estates in the city, it wasn't really the thing to be. And I didn't know any lesbians, didn't see any lesbians. There was Ellen, but, you know, you didn't say anything about Ellen because you'd get called a lesbian. So that was it. So I didn't know anything. So I love history. I've always loved history. And I would always try and find people that were like me, but it was just impossible. So I always thought, wouldn't it be great if there was just a little book, like with a chronological timeline of just queer women, lesbians, just from right at the beginning of time, just like heterosexual people have, up until the present day. So that was the first one, it's selfish reason for me, basically.

But then also for all the other people in the world that may want something like a timeline, just a chronological timeline. of themselves. And then secondly, I love queer theory and lesbian studies and gender studies, and it's just very academic. It can be quite inaccessible. Yeah, it's a bit inaccessible. And it can put a lot of people off. You know, Judith Butler, Gender Trouble is a great book, but it's, yeah, and I just, I don't know, I don't know what's going on half the time. I mean, I'm into it. I know that I'm into it and it's groundbreaking, but I'm like, I don't get it. So it took me a long time to kind of get into that work. And then I thought, why am I so desperate to be in this world when I could just maybe write something accessible for people like me who'd want a bit of sex or some swearing or some humour or just an easy read, you know, and that was the second reason?

These are both excellent reasons. Thank you. I'm really interested in what you said, well, in all of it so far, but the first thing that you said about how when you grew up, you were aware that there was something different about you, but you didn't know what it was. And although that was Manchester before the internet kicked off, is there. there was still more conversations around sexuality that are widely accessible. And it just made me think, like, how did people understand their sexuality 100 years ago, 200 years ago, when there was nothing at all? I think that's the best thing about queer people, or maybe just minorities,

is that you're always going to look for someone like you, and you're always going to find a way to find someone that's like you. So whether it be wearing a monocle like they did in Paris or in the, the gay culture in like the 50s and 60s where they would put a handkerchief of the other colour in the back pocket there's always a way of finding other people like you so like even Anlister would ask people if they liked Byron so she could just figure out their reaction clever yeah so she'd be like hey do you like Byron and she'd like wait for them to either be like really shocked or like yeah I've read Byron then she'd go oh right I'm in right let's do something

so people will always figure out a way to find each other really won't they oh they will absolutely the world. The other thing that fascinates me as well is the language around it. I think that's because you just mentioned Judith Butler and we're veering into deconstructionist territory and hopefully veering away again quite quick.

But a lot of this is caught up with what is the language around your sexuality? What are the words that you use? Because if you don't have the words, if the word, I think the Oxford English dictionary traces the word lesbian back to the 19th century, I think. Yeah, it was. Yeah, right?

But like, what would you have said? Now you've said. come out, you say, I'm a lesbian, I'm gay, I'm queer, whatever it is. But in the past, what language was accessible to people? You can't just be going around going, do you like Byron? Mum and dad, I like Byron. I've been experimenting with Byron. I'm a Byron fan. Well, the word lesbian, it was in the dictionary then, but it was actually used in reference to Queen Anne, actually, back in the 18th century. Yeah, yeah. So it was in, I think it was called a poem called The Toast or something in the newspaper. And it was the first reference to a lesbian being

of a woman that is interested in another woman. But as with all, lesbian history, it was swiftly ignored and only include in the dictionary a lot later. Why do you think that is? Because that's lesbians, that's being really general now. I'm very, very fascinated by how lesbian sex and an act and culture has been treated when it comes to gay sex and culture. For example, gay sex in Britain was criminalised under the Henry VIII came out with this sodomy act. And punishable by death. And lesbians, everyone seems to have gone, nah, they're fine. It's just jolly japes.

It's a really weird, like, why? I mean, I'm very pleased that lesbians weren't executed. That's really good. It's terrible gay men were, but why have men been imprisoned, executed, mutilated, and lesbians have not attracted the same. They're sort of flown under the radar. Yeah. Yeah, but then some definitely were executed and drowned, but I don't know.

I think it goes from one extreme to the other, so it's either they're just ignored, and it's mostly in the idea that it just could not possibly ever happen. So two women together could never, ever, ever want to have sex without a penis, just would never happen. So it doesn't even go into their consciousness. It's as simple as that. It's that we cannot conceive of sex unless there's a dick involved. It's as simple as that, even today.

Wow. Even today is true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's a massive reason, yeah. I have heard people say, in all honesty, what do they do? Exactly. That's the biggest question I've had that throughout my whole life. Like, what do you actually do in bed? It's such a weird question. I know, isn't it? And like really, like invasive as well.

Really invasive. What's your response to that? Depends it on feeling. Depends it. Yeah, it depends on what mood I'm in. If I'm in like, let's wind them up mood, then I'll just push it. But I'm actually an English teacher and I get a lot of students from across the world. And yeah, a lot of them from where the majority of them are from, yeah, it doesn't even go into their consciousness. Just something

that is not a thing. God, the power of the penis, eh? I don't know, right. Absolute centre stage it's had for far too long. But you mentioned the word lesbian there and being attached to Queen Anne. Lesbian, the word comes from Lesbos, because that's where Sappho came from.

Is she the earliest type lesbian woman that was attracted to other woman that you, you've found an exam that maybe that survives. That's the earliest evidence that we've got. Yeah, for sure. She's like the OG lesbian as in... Yeah, that's what she's referred to, the OG. I mean, yeah, because that's where lesbian came from, doesn't it?

And she's very... I don't like to use the word unapologetically, because it's like we have to apologise for being a lesbian. But she was very open about her sexuality and wrote a lot of songs and poetry and played them to women. And yeah, and was very open. about it. So it's really funny that even today historians are just like, no, she was straight.

She just liked women as friends. And that was it. And that was it. Lesbian history seems to have suffered with that particular phrase more than a lot of other history. They were just friends. And I think maybe it is from this weird idea that when women get together, that we do braid each other's hair and we just have pillow fights. And that kind of weird idea that that's just what we do anyway. So that's what girls do. It's, it's, it's. true, we do do that, but we also have sex with each other. Yeah, in between the pillow fights or braid in the hair. But Sappho, not a lot of people know this, but she actually invented the guitar pick.

No. Yeah, so she could fuck more women because... No. She loved playing the guitar and she had to have her fingernails long to play the guitar. And obviously, to have sex with women, you need short fingernails. So she decided to invent the pick so she could play guitar and have sex with women, which is genius. I see that, how do you know that? What?

What? I just might need to just take a pause. Just to, wow. All I do is just research lesbians, and that was one of the things that I found. That's literally the whole life. It's just like, what did Sappho do? How, like, is that in her poems?

Does she put that in there? I don't know where the exact reference came from, but I've heard it a few times in a few podcasts. There's a podcast called Sweet Bitter, which is about Sappho, the Satho expert. And I've read it in the few books that exist on lesbian history. I've read it in a few there. But yeah, it does seem to come from credible sources, yeah.

The other thing about Sappho is, so we have fragments of poems that survived that were written by her, just like little bits and pieces. Do we know if she was, like, widely read at the time? Was she just a guitar-picking lesbian that nobody was reading? Or was she, did she have, like, a big following? I think she was reasonably favoured in that, she, because she lived on the island. So on the mainland, women were treated a lot differently. I mean, she was still treated like shit.

But she was allowed to have female friends, and she was allowed to write. A lot of women in the mainland weren't even allowed to write at that time, or couldn't, were illiterate. So, yeah, she was literate, which meant that she was learned. And then she had these opportunities that not a lot of other people did. So that would have gathered a following. And she was often surrounded by women. So she was independent, maybe not independent of men full. time, but you could obviously tell that she was independent of men and had this life that was

independent of men in some aspects of their life. I suppose if the word lesbian and sapphic is traced back to Sappho, that sort of suggests that she must have been reasonably well known if, like, her name has impacted the language, right? Yeah, like she pissed off a lot of people because, well, men, she pissed off a lot of men because of what she was up to. And they would use it as a slur. So they We used sapphic, saffice, lesbian. The word lesbian, because they were referring to all the people of Lesbos, not just her. They were just saying that all the women there were lesbians. Wow.

Yeah, they're all just fucking each other, which they probably were. Maybe they were. Well, probably. They're on an island. What else are they going to do? Play guitar. Cut the fingernails. And then, yeah, that just pissed off a lot of men, so it became a slur.

And I think that's probably still the reason why the word lesbian, it's had its ups and downs that word for lesbians too. it's a word that doesn't easily come off the tongue, pun intended. No, it doesn't. Sorry, it had to do it. It doesn't, does it? It's got a z sound to it. And it's... I'm trying to bring it back. Are you a fan?

Oh, I'm a big fan, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think another thing of it is that when we use gay, I'm gay, we use it as an adjective, don't we? But when we use lesbian, we use it as a noun. So I think that's part of it, too. It's a bit jarring sometimes. Yeah. And I know a lot recently with Gen Z, they are more into using the word queer than lesbian or gay or they prefer to use the word queer, which I totally get because queer is a gift.

That is a gift word really. But yeah, it's a word that some say might die out, but we'll see. So we've got Sappho way back when doing her thing, pissing men off, picking guitars, writing epic poetry. What is some of the evidence that comes in after that? Because the problem with sex history, any sex history, is it's actually quite difficult to find because you'll find what lawmakers think or moralists think or people holding the pen, think, but actually first-hand account is quite difficult, and lesbian history, as you've already

said, often gets ignored or dismissed as well, it's just girls being girls. What is the evidence of after Sappho that you found? Well, you have maybe around the same time, but there was in Pompeii when Vesuvio exploded and erupted. There was graffiti on the wall, which indicated it was written by a woman for another woman. But in my book, I do tend to, it's creative non-fiction. So I like to fill in the blanks, but I feel like historians have been doing that forever. So it's true. We have. We just talk absolute shit. Just make it call up. I just thought, like, if they can tell me that these people aren't gay, then I'm going to say they are gay. It's just the same thing, isn't it? I'm just going to say that they are. Yeah, and there's evidence that

it's not, I didn't just pick it out thin air. There is evidence there that this woman wrote this other thing to another woman. And I just filled in the blanks in that they were going down on each other at the time. Nice. I mean, that's some skill, in it, to be able to

write on the wall and be able to do that particular act. During a volcano erosion. Women have always been good at multitasking.

Exactly. Yeah. That's to a whole of the level. So you said there that there have been some punishments for women

having sex with other women. And I'm aware of some that happened in the Netherlands in the 16th century where some women were burnt to death

as female sodomites. What other examples of punishment, of sanctioning women, and what were they put on trial for? Were they put on trial? So, yeah, a lot of the time they were ignored and then it wasn't stopping, so they couldn't ignore it anymore. So they didn't know what to do. And then... We've tried ignoring them and they're still doing it. Still having sex. So what they did was they charged them with the same as what men would, so like buggery or sodomy and things like that. They were charged with that. But without the penis. So it didn't really make sense, but they still did it. A lot of women or queer people,

because obviously now they could be considered trans for sure. So a lot of people had wooden dildos that they made that they would carry or wear. And that was enough for the authorities to charge them with sodomy because they had a replica of a penis, yeah? So they would get charged with that. So there wasn't actually a law. Then there was a German lady called Catherine Herzldorfer, I think. And I think she was the first person recorded charged for having sex with another woman. So a woman having sex with another woman. Wow. And she was drowned. Yeah. So they drowned. Oh, Catherine. Oh. What was the date for that? So it was 1477. God, that's the middle ages, isn't it? And that was in Germany? I believe so, yeah. And the thing is,

like when you said before, why they ignored? Sometimes I think it's annoying. that we are ignored and I'm like, burn us and drown us. Like you do the gay men, like acknowledge that we exist. But then obviously it's really sad, but then it's just a two-way thing. It's like we either don't exist and you don't acknowledge us, or you do treat us the same as gay men by executing us. Yeah, and it's a weird feminist hill to die on that one, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah, more executed. Nobody wants that. No one wants more executions. So do you get a lot of these convictions where women are really, running around with dildos? Yeah. Is that the main evidence? Again, we're back to the penis, aren't we?

Is that you've got to have a pretend penis and now we can convict you? Hey, but I'm not knocking the strap-on because it's genius. But a lot of women, I mean, I don't necessarily want to say women in these contexts because, again, a lot of these people would have been trans. So they've been recorded as women because that vocabulary and terminology and identity didn't even exist. So a lot of them would wear strap-ons, dildos, homemade ones, either just to have sex. a lot of people who said it was pleasurable. There was two women that went to court because one of

them said it wasn't pleasurable and the other one said, oh, you weren't saying that when I was fucking you. So that was funny. Wow. They were either lesbian, trans, queer. But yeah, a lot of them were carrying dildos wearing strappons and making good use of them. And do you write about the Italian Stalin, Katerina Vazanzi? Tell me about Katerina. So I think with this one, I would be comfortable saying she because when she passed away, she asked to be buried in female clothing. So she was just like top shagger. Before like any of the other top shaggers. On the headstone.

Yeah, like she started young. She was like 14, I think, when she started. And she had an affair with her embroidery teacher. As you do. Right. This just thought it was hilarious. Then she just kept having lots of affairs, but she kept getting caught by her lovers, like their fathers, who just kept trying to shoot her or.

beat her up. So she would just go around Italy, sleeping with all these women. Their fathers would find out, try and shoot her. She'd escape. So she got bored of that and decided that she would dress as Giovanni so she could kind of get away with it a bit more. But the fathers were still unimpressed because they were not married. And she ended up getting shot in the leg. And then she was Giovanni then, and that's when she asked to be buried in female clothing. And was that what killed? Yeah, yeah. Shot in the leg. By one of the dads. So all these dads were just pissed off with a running around Italy, sleeping with all her daughters. And then she got shot on the leg and then passed away.

And after she died, they were fascinated with her because of what she was doing, cross-dressing, sleeping with women. So they completely just, like, dissected her anatomy. Just to try and figure out how she was a lesbian. Where does the lesbian come from? Yeah, basically, yeah. But they just took everything out, but found nothing, of course, because unfortunately, under your ovaries is not a big L that says lesbian.

I'll be back with Kirsty and lesbians after this short break. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and on my podcast, not just the Tudors from History Hit, I try to make sense of everything that baffled our early modern ancestors. Like, what do you do with your waist? If you put your dung hill up against your neighbour's wall, you're going to cause rising damp. Would Henry the 8th ever consider executing his wife,

the Queen of England? And Berlin. I'm not even sure if the Billins took it seriously because why would they have any reason to suspect Henry the 8th would really get rid of his queen? And why do men grow beards? During puberty, the male body heats up and a smoke rises in the body

pushes out the hair in the face. So the beard is actually a form of excrement. In other words, not just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. Twice a week every week. Listen and follow on Apple, Spotify or web. wherever you get your podcasts. And then you've got historical characters

that are kind of a myth or a suggestion of lesbianism grows up around them. And I'm thinking of your two pirate queens and Bonnie and Mary Reid. And there's a kind of like a swirling around them of like, maybe, maybe, maybe. Like it's not enough that they were just pirates. No.

What's your take on that? Do you think that they were lesbians as well? Or maybe... Oh, 100%. What do? Massively. Like, there's a lot of evidence that Anne Bonnie was just a character, though. She was just really, really funny.

This is another thing that I find with lesbians in history is that we have this bad reputation lesbians. I've just kind of been the boring member of the LGBT community, you know, tepid, lukewarm. I feel like, yeah, we have that a lot. Really? Yeah, like the lavender colour or we tend to get into partnerships and then stay together for years and years. Which is true. I've never thought of lesbians like that. I'm quite surprised. Yeah, we're sexless individuals. We don't have a lot of sex. But it's rubbish.

As you can see, we have a lot of sex. You have a lot of sex. Yes, and piracy. Very, very, very funny. Very, very funny people. Why did you think that they were funny? What was Anne Bonnie doing that makes you laugh? Anne Bonnie was just a nutter. So she moved from Ireland to the US and just had the shortest temper. She just couldn't deal with men. She'd like burn down their plantations. one of them looked at her funny, she'd break their arm, she was arrested for stabbing one of them to death, but then she also stabbed a maid to death, so that's not nice. Well, it's not nice

killing anyone to death. No, it's definitely frowned on. But she'd beat up would be rapist. She was just very angry and a very angry individual, and her father kept trying to make her get married, and she was like, no, I don't want to. And then she did marry someone, and then she was over it and then ran off to see because she met a pirate. I love that frown. And yeah, like you said, it sounds like very mythical and like out of a story. But yeah, she actually did run off. She met a pirate, ran off to sea and was supposed to get with him. But then ended up getting with the other woman on board.

What I love about that is that, just as you would say in there, because I was thinking, is that actually the myth that they must have been together? And I was just thinking to myself, that just seems a little bit on the nose. I was like, but they are pirates, Kate. Like they did like how the story is already quite extra, isn't it? You know what I mean? There were only two men on board. And if they were both inclined in that, I mean, that's very lesbian too.

It's like find the other lesbian and then marry the lesbian and then have children with the lesbian and then get 10 cats with the lesbian and then divorce the lesbian. That's basically what they did. I'm glad that there's less piracy amongst the lesbian community today though. Yeah, I think lesbians and pirates go quite well together, though. I think it's a life that lesbians should lead. Whereas the gay men can continue to have sailors. Yeah. And the lesbians can take piracy.

Yeah. I like that. What about royalty? Let's talk royal lesbians. Because with all kinds of history, the stories that are lost to us are just the everyday stories. Because I was about to say, we don't have a diary of a lesbian, but we do and we'll get to her. It's the most famous diary in the world. It really is.

But just like your average bog standard person on the street. And even today, we're not recording things. We tend to have sex diaries. And if you did, you're going to leave it to the British Museum. It's a weird thing. Like, you don't leave it for a few hundred years, and then it becomes valuable, right? It's just you recording how many times you masturbated in a week. If you send that to someone now, it's harassment.

Give it 200 years, and it's like an historical treasure trove. I know. Imagine. That'd be so cool. It'd be so cool. But we lose the voices of just your everyday, your working-class people, people who couldn't write, people who just weren't thought-worthy to be written about. But royalty, we have quite.

a few records on your aristocracies. So walk me through the royal lesbians. Well, I guess Queen Christina in Sweden was one of the most famous in that as soon as she was born there was questions, but not necessarily about her sexuality,

but they all thought she was a boy. Why? Because she had a big nose. Hashtag science. She had a big nose and Harry back. So they were like, she must be a boy. And then they found out she wasn't. But yeah, like you said,

She was a royal, so life was not that tough, and she could do near enough what she wanted to do, which is quite lucky, really, for her at that time. But in royal households, I guess they, well, I guess it depends who in mother and father are as well. But luckily, her father was quite chill. I mean, they were Swedish, so renowned, chilled individuals. But she was just sleeping with everyone. Again, she would refuse to wear dresses. She was the air as well.

She had a partner that she called her Bedfellow. It was an open secret. They split up. Christina did not want to become queen. And she rode off into the sunset just to fuck other people. Wow. And this for the 17th century? Yeah.

I suppose when you've got that much money, it's a different level of accountability, really, isn't it? It's just you've got a lot of fuck you money, really. Yeah, but then you think you've got that. But then on the other hand, why do we only have Queen Anne, who we know is a British, queer person, or lesbian and why is no one else comfortable enough, especially now? I mean, you can't tell me there's not one single queer person in the royal family. No. I'm just thinking mentally, just like, who would I pick?

Ann. Yeah. I mean, did you see her at the coronation? But talk to me about the other queen, Anne. So what's the evidence for this stuff? Because this is where historians get hold of it and they go over the nitty gritty and they go, well, actually, this could mean this, that could mean that you're reading it through modern perspectives. What is the evidence that Queen Anne was get, apart from the fact there was a brilliant

film with Olivia Coleman in it, which we can't really use as evidence. But like the actual Queen Anne, what is the evidence that she was a queer woman? The thousands and thousands of letters that her and Sarah Churchill sent to each other. One side of the letters are gone. Not all of them, but the majority of them, they were burned. But the letters are always like, I miss you, I miss you, come stay with me, I want you to be in my bed. And it's flowery writing, but that's just the writing of the time. But you read between those lines and it's basically, I want you in my bed so we can have sex. I miss you. I want to fuck you. You're the love of my life. Come home. And the favourite is obviously fiction, but a lot of it comes from truth. And the relationship between them

was very much so like that in that Sarah Churchill was trying to meddle or get higher in a position. But there was love between them, for sure. And Queen Anne had a not a very nice life, really, considering. She was a lot of pain, weren't she? And she, lots and lots of babies that didn't make it and miscarriage. And just a loveless marriage and gout. And so I think it's unfair to take that relationship away from her because it seems to be the only loving relationship that she had in her life, apart from when the cousin came along and stirred a few feathers. But I think the letters say enough. And I just think it's really unfair and just a bit silly when historians just discount that because it's like, no, they're just friends. And it's like, no, they're not because they're talking

about being in bed with one another and having sex. You do have to be careful as a history, and I understand, like, the hesitation. Because the thing is, is when you look back at history, and, like, we're so keen on reclaiming marginalised histories that it is really tempting to look at things and go, oh, my God, they were gay. Yeah. And you want that history, you want to bring it back and you want to be excited about it. And I understand that there is a need to go, right, just slow down.

They might not be as gay as you think they are. But these letters, even by the standards of the time, they were inviting each other into their bed. You'd have to prove to me that that was happening in platonic friendships as well. And I haven't seen the evidence for that. Yeah. And this is the queen as well, you know. She has other beds, right? You can't even make the argument that, well, the people did share beds. Not if you're the queen, you fucking know.

No, exactly. And she ain't just going to invite some random person into a bed. This is the queen of England. Like, she's not just going to be like, oh, come into my bed so we can change. That's not her. I mean, I'm not necessarily saying that these people are lesbians, but the element of queerness is there all the way through with so many things through history, that queerness in that it challenges heteronormativity.

And I think that's the good distinction between the two in that we're not just going, she's a lesbian, she hates men, she doesn't want to have sex with men. That's probably not true because she was marriage, you know, and that maybe there was some love in that relationship. She had a lot of miscarriages. There was probably mental health issues. but then she did have that love with Sarah Churchill and that's important not to discount that.

So it did challenge tetranormitivity and I think that's the main key in history really to take away from is that factor. And it seems that they were widely spoken about at the time and like not even like whispery whispery but like there's satirical pamphlets written about them and like jokes being made quite openly about them as well at the time. Yeah, yeah.

Like that's where the word lesbian was first referred to in those newspapers and those jokes. and people were just taking the piss because that was all they could really have on her at the time and people were not mad about it. It was just like, oh, the Queen's having sex as Sarah Churchill, ha ha. Or maybe it was just like, no, that could never happen, but it's funny. Yeah, it's funny.

Or the other thing that lesbians throughout history seemed to have got is they're almost like, I don't want to say a terrorist attraction, that sounds mad. But like people want to sort of gawk about that. I'm thinking of before we get to an enlisted because I know that she met them. the ladies of Langolin, I'm not if I'm pronouncing that particularly right, but they in the 18th century lived in Wales, like people just turned up to have a look at them. Oh my God, yes, they did.

They were fascinated. I don't think it was a sexual thing. I think it was more in that they had set up this amazing house. Not really a literary salon, but it was just a cool house with cool things in it. Fair. I mean, I can understand that. They're wanting to just go and look at a cool house. Yeah.

Definitely. Like, if Byron went there, Percy Shelley. was there. Or Byron just can't keep away with these things. He apps, galleywag that he is. Anything like not heterosexual, he's all over it, isn't he? If he stays still long enough, he'll have a go at it. So who were the ladies of Lang Golan? And what were they up to? I don't want anyone to think that like there was tourists flocking there to see them having sex, because that's not what was happening. But they were widely known to be, I don't know, like a couple? Is that what they were known for? Apart from having a lovely house?

They were 100% a couple. They met in Ireland. That's where they're front. on, they met on a walk and as lesbians do, they just fell in love with each of the straight away and decided to run off together. They were stopped a couple times by their parents. They'd go and hide in each of those houses. They got a dog. They ran away with their dog. They finally ended up in Wales and settled in the nice little quaint village.

People were not that happy. At the beginning, they were into it. They were like, this is nice. This is cool. And I think, like we said before, there was that element of they're just really good friends that are quite different. I just don't think it would have ever occurred to them that they would have slept together. But they did. And they called each other, my love, my wife.

They had lesbian friends. They would sleep in the same bed. They would have sex. And yeah, people would come over and hang out with them because they were educated, smart women, interesting women with a cool house with cool things in it. When they passed away, though, that's when the people of the village got a bit annoyed because the village became famous because of this couple that lived there. So they tried to steer away from that because it was becoming known as like the lesbian village

and all these lesbians would come on a pilgrimage just to see the house, which they still do today. Oh, did they? Oh yeah. I was supposed to go last weekend, but I actually went on my own lesbian pilgrimage last year up to Yorkshire, your ends. Well, no, don't say that. You went under pilgrimage to my end. Yeah. Well, we have to talk about the great Anne Lister, who unfortunately is no relation of mine.

I know I've done the genealogy. It's really depressing. But Anne Lister of Shibden Hall, hugely famous diarist, famous lesbian, she went to visit the ladies of Langolling, didn't she? Yeah, she did. She was very much interested. She'd heard about them through the grapevine, the grapevine. And she was very interested in how they'd concocted this life where they could live with each other

as a married couple. Anne Lister was desperate to get married, not to a man though. She was desperate for a wife. She really wanted a wife. Just the idea of that having a wife. she wanted and she was really intrigued by what they'd done in Wales so she went down there to have a look and in her diary she does come across quite shy really when she was there it doesn't really shout the analyst that you kind of see in the other aspects of her diary and I think she was

very impressed and moved I think by it because at the time she was trying to figure out her lifestyle and and how she was going to settle down because she just really wanted to settle down that's what she wanted yeah I think that there's so much about the history of analyst her that really surprises you when you get into it. But I think the thing that surprises me most is how certain she is around her sexuality, and how confident she is. And although she's got to be discreet, she writes her diaries and codes, again, people around her knew, people around her talked about it. And she is very open and confident with the fact that she, in her own words, loves only the fair sex. Yeah. Again, though, as we did say before, people may have known,

but not to the extent, I don't think. I think the idea of her having sex with other women was just unheard of and just wouldn't come into their consciousness. Obviously, some people would, but even her family, I doubt that they would have known the extent of, I think they knew that she was maybe in some kind of relationship with women. But the sexual part, I don't know, I just feel like a lot of people, it just wouldn't go into their heads. No, it's like they're just very, very, very good friends and they might romantically love each other. It's almost like this kind of celibate.

But when you read the diaries, nope, nope. She knew what she was doing. Oh, ho. Like she's chopping pubic hair off her lovers. The word she uses is grubbling, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. She uses queer for vagina, which is pretty interesting.

Yeah. She uses kiss for an orgasm. So she definitely knows what she's doing. She sounds like she's dynamite in bed as well. Do you think so? Oh, yeah. I read that she had contracted some kind of... Oh, yeah, she did.

The area is one of her lovers. And that she was much, much, more of a giver than a receiver. She was a hardcore top. Hardcore top. Oh, yeah. She had top vibes. But she does write about how she has orgasmed.

Oh, okay. Yeah, has received a middle finger. Right. Okay, because I was at the international analyst a summit online and somebody was making the argument, or at least they were explaining that she didn't let people touch her very much. Analyst, yeah. I think to an extent, maybe she did definitely prefer to give. but no there was definitely some versatility in there from what I've read in her diaries yeah definitely

brilliant she was clearly very seductive because there's not many that turned her down it seems once she'd set her sights on someone said the gift for the gab and I think yeah she just had that appeal of like you just know she'd be good in bed as well you just look at it just go yeah you know you just see someone and you're like yeah they know what they're doing you know your way around that yep and speaking of people that know their way around things and prolific lovers. Natalie Clifford Barney. She's one of my favourite historical lesbians. Again, because she's so open and unashamed with it. Again, like Annalister, she has the privilege of money and class that kind of get people off the hook a lot. But tell me a bit about who she was.

It's weird actually Natalie Barney, because she's very unknown, isn't she? Not many people know about her. But I guess probably because, I don't want to say the only interesting thing about her, but one of the most interesting things about her is her being lesbian. She did have other qualities, of course, but it was the way that she just went about it. She loved women and was very open about it. She had a temple in her back garden in Paris, where she would just fuck women in a temple in her back garden in Paris. Well played. She opened the literary salon just to get women around. It was kind of like one of the first lesbian bars as such, where they just hang out and get off with each other. She kind of set up like a network of lesbians where,

you'd introduce them all to each other. They'd all date each other, very much how life is like today with lesbians. You always know someone's ex who's been with someone's ex. And this is what kind of time period we're talking here? 1920s, Paris. There was a woman called Marie Suvestre and she opened schools for women and Eleanor Roosevelt went to one of these schools and so Natalie Barney, so both of those people who are queer, Eleanor Roosevelt is queer. She's in the book as well. and it's just I think that whole thing was quite interesting that they both went to the school that was run by this queer lady who encouraged young women to be themselves

and to be as independent as possible and it's quite interesting that those two came out of that with the road that they ended up following. But yeah, Natalie Barney, interesting character, but then also she, I don't know if you've read the book Bad Gays. Yes, I think I have, yes. We have this thing, don't we, with historical queer, people and that we must celebrate them all.

But there must be dead nice all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heroes. But there's a bit of uncertainty with her and that during the war, she had to go to Italy to escape. And we don't know if she kind of gave up people that were Jewish or if she, yeah, there was some uncertainty there in that she did it to protect herself or she did it for other no reasons or we don't know.

So there could have been like some anti-Semite stuff there. Which I think it's important to tell because we talk about these women were like, she's great, she's amazing. that she had sex in a temple in her back garden. You might have taken the shine off of her for me now. Yeah, but then on the other hand, she also may not have been the greatest person. So lesbians can also be assholes.

She broke Dolly Wild's heart. Yeah, but Dolly Wild was a bit of a wet blanket. Oh, now then. Yes, yeah, that was Oscar Wild's niece, right? Yeah, I think she fell in love with everyone. When I was doing this, yeah, this research, she always pops up, like. Just being sad and in love.

with people. Yeah, like Ethel Smith, the composer. She kept falling in love with everyone and no one was interested. Oh, right, okay, so maybe she's not my favourite historical lesbian anymore. I might have to recategorise that one. We don't know for sure, we don't know for sure, but... Just a kind of a dark cloud hanging over that one. What about Barbara Smith? She's someone else that you write about in your book. Fascinating figure. I think around that time, second way of feminism, I guess, was becoming the norm, but it was excluding a lot of people, especially black people. So Barbara Smith and Audrey Lord were just like one day sat at their kitchen table, just like, what shall we do?

We need to do something about this. We need to do something about black voices. And they were just sat at their kitchen table having this chat and decided that they were going to do their own publishing house. And from that, they were going to publish people of colour and the voices that they wanted to hear. Wow. That's incredible, isn't it? And it's raising up those voices.

I mean, the history of lesbians of colour is a really interesting history as well. And again, doubly marginalised, doubly silence. Oh, I know. When you look at things like Harlem, which in itself is such an amazing time period in what happened then with black voices and creativity and literature and music, also the queer element is huge. Huge. Massive, yeah, yeah. So not only does it get ignored, I mean, the history is there. If you look for it, it's there.

But the queer history of it is rarely there. So it is, like you said, doubly neglected. And if you look at something like the blues history as well, your early female blues singer is Bessie Smith. Marini. Lesbian singing about two women, about women, very openly, it seems as well. Yeah, and very openly got arrested

for having an orgy with loads of chorus girls. All right, I've switched alliances now. I'm having Bessie Smith as my favourite historical. No, that was Marini. Oh, Marani. Right, okay, both of them. They can be my favourite historical lesbian. Bessie Smith may have busted her out of jail.

I think she helped bust her out of jail for it. But there was a movie about Marrani recently, that's surprising me, wasn't included. Really? We're still cutting this stuff out, still not telling news story. It was alluded to, I think. That's where we are now. There's allusions to queerness,

but it's not the main focus. Yeah. Kirstie, you have been so much fun to talk to her. I can't even begin to tell you. Thank you. And I could just sit here and just name historical lesbian and just keep going forever and ever, but I'm not allowed to.

But my final question, just because now I've recategorized my favorite historical lesbian to be Bessie Smith, do you have a favorite historical lesbian? Who would you have liked to have hung out with? Well, I'm quite obsessed with Virginia Woolf, but I think she's just my favorite person. I'm just obsessed with her. But I guess favorite lesbian would be Vita Sackwell West, who was her lover. Just because her story is just really funny. She was Anne Lister on steroids.

No, there's a thought. Okay. But also she had this relationship with this other woman called Violet Keppel. He was just also a fascinating figure in that her mom at the time was sleeping with King George's 7th. Like he'd just come to their house. Hello, okay. He'd just come to their house and have sex with their mum and then just leave. Like, imagine that happening now.

Imagine a royal being sexually indiscreetly. Oh, no, I know, mental. Vile behavior. Her and Violet, Vita and Violet were together and they were very much in love. And it was very intense and very emotional. and they ran off to France and their husbands had to charter a plane to cross the channel to go collect them, which just made me laugh so much because lesbian relationships are just so intense and emotional and dramatic, and it was just the drama of all that killed me.

But also Vita's husband was gay. So they had like this lavender marriage. There was a big love between them, but they had this lavender marriage. And at the time, he was also dealing with the Treaty of Versailles. So he had like really important things to deal with. But he had to go and get this plane. just to go and get his wife who was like getting off with this woman and he just had to go and bring her back while he was like dealing with that. So that whole story just really makes me laugh. And I just

think it's lesbianism in a nutshell is just how dramatic and intense we can be as as lesbians. I love that. Oh, Kirsty, if people want to know more about you and your work and your research, where can they find you? So I'm on Twitter, but I don't really use it much anymore. So Kirsty Law, L-O-E-H-R, and then on Instagram where I'm more active Kirsty Lord L-O-E-H-R. And give us the full title of the book. A Short History of Queer Women. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

You have just been a ridiculous amount of fun. Thank you very much, so have you. Thank you for listening. And if you like what you heard, you know the drill by now, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. I know everybody says that, but it actually does help us quite a lot.

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