Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Ancient Goddesses: Rebellion, Magic & Sexual Liberation

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

Struggling for role models in the modern world? We've got your back, looking way back to the ancient world.Join Kate and Jasmine Elmer, author of her new book, Goddess With A Thousand Faces, as they explore the remarkable stories of some of histories most incredible ancient Goddesses and the lessons we can learn from them.What can Artemis the Greek Goddess of Wild Hunting and Virginity tell us about sexual autonomy? And what does Huitaca, the Goddess of Rebellion tell us about taking a stand when our freedoms are in danger?This episode was edited by Tom Delargy. The producer was Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign here for up to 50% for 3 months using code BETWIXTYou can take part in our listener survey here.Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, my lovely butt twixters. It's me, Kate Lister. How the hell are you doing? Well, I'm fine. Thank you very much for asking. I'm glad that we're both fine,

and to make sure that everybody stays fine, I have to tell you, fair dos. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And if you can't take all of those boxes,

then we don't want you here, quite frankly. You're just letting the rest of the side down. So be off with you. And for those of you that are sticking around, let's get on with it. Picture the scene. It's Friday night in the 13th century and you are looking for the best party on the planet. Where are you heading? Butlands?

Weather spoons? Well, I think that we can do a little bit better than that. Allow me to point you in the right direction. Get yourself down to the territory of the Moiska people in what is now Colombia. And ask for the goddess Huataka. Who attacker knows how to party. That is her whole thing. Her life is pure hedonism, and she is always on the hunt for pleasure.

And she's often quite pissed as well. She stands in stark contrast to her divine neighbour, Bochika, a rather boring, sensible bearded man who walks around talking about law and morals, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yes, there is a time and a place for all of that, but I think I know who I would rather go for a drink with. So what wisdom might Huataka share with us over a drink? How can Who Attacka and other goddesses inspire us today? Put on your dancing shoes and let's get ready to worship.

We are going to find out. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning it up and pushing the funny. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry.

Hello and welcome back to betwixt. to the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. When we're looking for role models in today's world, why not cast your mind back to the great goddesses of the past? Whether that's Freya, the Viking goddess of sexuality, war, magic and a whole load of other stuff, Artemis from ancient Greece, or our good friend Huataka. They've all got some amazing stories to tell. And sharing those stories with us today is Jasmine Elmer,

author of Goddess with a Thousand Faces, a One of a Kind Exploration of Goddesses from our ancient past, which is out now in all good bookshops and probably the bad ones too. If you're hungry for more stories about ancient goddesses, then why not check out our episode on Ancient Goddesses of Sex and War with the legendary Ronald Hutton. But without further ado, let's get into it. And welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Jasmine Elmere. How are you doing? I'm really good. How are you?

I'm thrilled to have you here. I've been wanting to meet you for ages and ages. Honestly, I'm properly stoked. It started with our red lipstick girl crushes on each other on Instagram, didn't it? It did. Yeah. It did. Yeah. But we should do something on red lipstick, you know. That's fascinating.

But we're not here to talk about red lipstick, Jasmine, because you have just published, not out yet, but shortly, a book, Goddess with a Thousand Faces. I did. I wrote an actual book. There it is, your brain baby. I know. My brain baby. I've had an actual baby as well, and that was harder.

the brain baby was harder than the actual baby. It was so stressful, isn't it? It's that at least when you're giving birth, you don't have an editor giving your notes back and telling that you have to redo bits of it. You don't have to put it back in for more cooking. You can just, it's out, it's done. So, I think that actually when this episode goes out, it will be the day of your book release.

So when people are listening to this, they can rush forth and get it. But for anyone that's unfamiliar with this book, what is it about? So the book is all about, it's 10 world goddesses from ancient cultures, but some of them are still contemporary in worship today. And we start with each of their stories, which is based on kind of real historical source material or oral tradition where we don't have that. So you go with the goddess in her story, get to know her. And then you learn about the context of that culture.

So sometimes it might be a culture that you know. Sometimes it might not be. But there are 10 different stories. And the whole point of it, the whole thread, is all about what these goddesses can tell us about our own aspects of femininity. So it's quite self-reflective as well. So it's kind of the mash-up is storytelling, history, I guess, like, almost self-reflection as well, a bit of spirituality in there too.

So it's a kind of new vibes, new type of book, I think. Don't think it exists, so I think I've made it up. I'm loving it, because there is a lot of personal experience in here, and there is a lot of storytelling interwoven with who these goddesses were how they were worshipped, what their stories are. But how did you settle on just 10? That must have been a bitch of an editing process. Like, who didn't make the cut? Oh, well, there were a couple that didn't make the cut. This is going to sound a little bit strange, but I would start reading about someone and there would just be a feeling, which is like the most annoying answer, isn't it,

to anyone that's like, how do I write about goddesses or something? And I go, oh, it was a feeling. But it was a feeling. I'd read a story and go, oh, there's something in here that feels right. and I'll just follow it. And so basically the 10 that are there are the ones where I just felt the strongest feeling, which is really academic an approach, but never mind. Yeah, so I felt that they had something to tell us more than the other ones did. But truthfully, it was really hard because as you know, there are so many cultures, so many cool stories out there. It could have 100 volumes. It could be a 100 volume encyclopedia, couldn't it, of interesting goddesses. I think that the feeling that you described is also, it's not just a feeling because there is a narrative

through them all. Like you've obviously pulled them together to tell a story rather than just, I mean, it is like, oh, I just like that one. And that is actually what a lot of historical research is. You're not allowed to say that out loud, but that is true. It's just I quite liked that. Yeah, it was a bit worrying what that means about you then, Kate, isn't it, that you followed this line of work. Well, that's very true. It's my deep and abiding interest in the human condition. Yeah, well, no, I mean, you're right. I mean, it wasn't as random as a the sound but when I was choosing it, there were these narratives that spoke louder to me. But I was always very sure of the framework. And the framework was, as a modern woman today,

in my midlife, which of these gals is piping up to me and has got something to say to me as I am today? And that was always the thread. I was like there were going to be aspects of femininity that I recognise, which I hoped therefore would mean that other people would recognise it, especially women, but people that are interested in feminine qualities. So I kind of went with that. So one of the goddesses that you seem to be very attracted to, actually you could say that you're quite hot for all of them, but it's Freya, the Viking goddess.

What was it about her that made you go, yes, I want to tell your story, Freya? I don't think I can answer this without asking you a question first, which is how are you getting from the page that I've got hot for them? Where are you getting that from? There's a girl crush here. I'm sure. No, I'm a bit worried, like you've got some kind of like crystal ball and you've gone,

she fancies this one. It's a girl crush. It's not necessarily sexual, but like girls definitely develop those kind of like intense feelings. It's not like I want to have sex. It's like, I want to be you. And I think, got you. Or maybe you do fancy them.

I don't know. You can explain it. Well, I don't fancy them. But yeah, there is definitely girl crushes. I think, well, Freya's story, first of all, is just. so like immediately shocking. Certainly to me. You, not shocking.

You'd be like, oh, just random Monday morning. I was actually quite shocked by Freya's antics. Even I registered it as a, well, well, my goodness, Frey, very naughty young lady over here. Yeah, I mean, we should probably tell everyone what it is now because I'd be like, we probably should do. So, I mean, as I was researching, the many stories of Freya, this one stuck out a bit because the story, this story of Freya that I chose is from a 14, century work by some Christian chroniclers. That is called the Sala Falft, which is my

Icelandic. If you're not, if you're Icelandic, you've heard that and that was awful. I'm sorry. But the story goes in this text that she was wondering about and came across some dwarves, four dwarves in a cavern and they were making a beautiful necklace called the Brissingameg. And it was made out of gold and she wanted it. So she said, can I buy it? Which is the first way I'd think about getting something. But they go, no, no, no. We don't want. your gold or your silver. We want you. You're the currency. So they said, we want to have sex with you. And then you can have the necklace. And literally, she doesn't even bat an eyelid. She goes, all right. No. So she does four, a night with each dwarf. Four nights. Must have been a good necklace.

Exactly. What necklace is that? And then she's gone off with the necklace. And it continues the story. The necklace gets stolen by naughty loki. And it goes to Odin, who is sort of Freya's husband in different stories, but you never really know. When he gets a bit annoyed, that she's gone off with these dwarfs who had got a necklace for it. And he says, you can have it back, but two kings need to fight for, like, eternity. So these kings are fighting. She gets her necklace back. But in the end, Christianity saves it.

As soon as the Christians come along, then they can stop fighting. What a story. That's a hell of a story, isn't it? Freya is such an interesting little nugget of information about who this goddess was. Just put her into context in the Viking pantheon. Like, was Freya the goddess of shagging people for necklaces? Yes. Oh, wait.

Well, no, okay. No, but I really just like that description. So can we just say yes and just carry on? Yeah, that's her whole deal. She's definitely got like sexual connotation. So a goddess of sex in some ways for sure. But, you know, she's kind of got, like a lot of these goddesses, it's quite complicated what they represent.

Because she's also goddess of magic. So she's kind of the goddess that gave magic to the same. Searesses of Viking culture, the vulva, the vulva spelt differently, more like Volvo, and war as well. So there's one of those things, it's sexuality, war, magic, that sort of thing. And, you know, in terms of the pantheon, it's very male-dominated, shock, like most of my book will tell you, most of these have that element. But, you know, she has a role in mythology and we hear about her stories, but often they're kind of, she's a bit like a bit character a lot of the time,

which is why I really liked this story because she was the main character. It was mainly about her, even if some of the focus was still on Odin and Loki, there was more about her in it. So she's kind of fascinating. The bit about her worship as well

is going to be really interesting because she, because of the fact that she's a female goddess and a quite male-orientated pantheon of gods, you know all the stories. We hear a lot about the male stories in Viking thinking. But I think that she,

it's a bit like an unknown quantity. I believe that the Vikings held her in a lot higher esteem and had much more personal relationship with her than we can probably know through the archaeology and the history. One of the things I didn't know about Freer until quite recently, and I still haven't had an answer to this question, is like, you know how the hall of Valhalla is Odin's deal? Like that's his big hall,

and when people die, men die in battle, they get to go there and live it up and have a great time. I didn't realize that there's actually two holes. There's Odin's hole of Valhalla, and then there's Freya's hall. And Freya gets to decide which Viking dead go with her. So effectively the people go into Valhalla are her rejects. But nobody can actually explain why there are two halls. Like who gets to decide?

But the fact that the only one that people really know about is Valhalla, and Freya's over here going, excuse me, I think you'll find that I have a hall as well. I think that's astonishing. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It's a really unusual aspect of her story. And like you say, I'm going to do the annoying thing and say, I can't give you a straight answer either because we just don't know exactly what the distinction is. It's not like everyone that was called Thor went to her one

and everyone that wasn't went to the other one. What's the characteristics? What's the criteria? I don't know what these, you know, war dead, why they would go to one or the other and why it would be her or why it would be, you know, Valhalla. It's really, really confusing, actually. But I think if we step back from trying to figure out why someone went there and why they didn't. Isn't it really interesting that she had such a powerful position,

but we don't know about it? It's not actually very easy to find that information. It's not very well out there and we don't really understand it. And we're sort of given up on it. It's testament to that kind of the hierarchy of male stories being more important and prominent than female. Yeah. I mean, she must have been very, very important and central, despite her shenanigans with dwarves, although maybe because of it, for her to actually preside over the world of the dead. Well, absolutely. I mean, of course, this is the thing about her. And because we don't know a great deal about how they worshipped her, now there are plenty of place names in Scandinavia that have connection to her name,

where it suggests that it could have been like one of her temples or one of the sites or shrines to her. And they're quite numerous. But in terms of like strong evidence for how widespread her worship will have been, we can't know. And actually that's something you'll see a lot in the book. We can't always know a lot of this stuff because the spaces, the archaeology, the spaces are all kind of harder to pin down. And we don't have that kind of a chain of evidence of interest that goes back far enough to understand exactly the origins of these things. So what is it that you think you can learn from Freya as a goddess and her story? I mean, I'm sure you'll have a take on this as well.

The point of my thing, I give a take each time there's a story. I have my own view. I try and make it a bit more like amusing so that you can read it as the reader and go, oh, this is, I agree or I don't agree or this reminds me with something in my own life or what have you. I mean, if you've had sex before,

dwarfs or something to you, but I don't know how people relate to it directly. But the point I want to make is that you take it and you go, what does this mean for me? So for me, when I see Freya's story, I think this is a woman that used her own sexuality, her own sexuality as her own currency. she wanted something, she weighed it up and decided that was okay.

And I think that's quite a powerful story for the ancient world. I mean, when I say ancient, we're talking kind of 8th, 11th century AD. So, you know, there's still a long time ago, right, long time ago. There's a woman choosing, albeit mythical woman, choosing to use her body as currency and being okay with that decision. But it's interesting to look at the fallout for men. But none of the men like this. Like Odin has to wade in and try and take control of the situation.

She can't just have her. necklace and chill out, can she? No. Like a man has to come in and take control over it, have his dominion. And I think for us today as women, I mean, you think about things like slut shaming. If women want to use their bodies for their own kind of, let's say pleasure, because it can be any type, right? It can be if it's a necklace for her, whatever it might be for someone else. We're still shamed for that.

And in some ways, although Odin doesn't shame her, he punishes her by asking these kings to continue in this feud, which is a bit weird, I get. It's a bit of a weird punishment, but it's there. I'll be back with Jasmine after this short break. So moving on to another goddess, who I'm never, ever, ever going to be able to pronounce their name because I am an ignorant fool. No, you're not.

I'm going to have a go at it. Utaka? Yeah, Huitaka. That's good. Oh, wow. The goddess of rebellion, sexual liberation and the moon. So tell me about this goddess. She's going to be your favourite, for sure. Okay, hit me.

Because, so she comes from the Moiska people, which lived in. Colombia, like the Andes in Colombia. And the reason why you might find them like, oh, I sort of know this buzz, buzz, buzz word is because they might have been connected to the legend of El Dorado, but the famed golden place, the golden hordes. That is possible that it comes from that culture. And it's a really like not well known, I'd say culture in particularly in Western thinking.

You know, it was a right bugger to research. I had to dust off some old Spanish there. what, a bit tough. But it was amazing to look at because, you know, there's probably about one to three million inhabitants of this culture. And it's possibly about 13,000 years old. So it's like really massively prevalent. And so Huataka is one of their main goddesses in their culture. And she's the goddess of like, yeah, like partying, sexual rebellion, liberation. Like, I mean, I know this isn't a real term, but I sticking it to the man. I feel like that's her vibe. That's her thing. Why do you say that? Because it must be so difficult to get stories from the

sources that are available to us. You just alluded to it there. Like, what is it that's in her story that would make you and other scholars go, she's very specifically about a kind of sexual liberation. Like it's not a fertility thing. It's not like just a sex thing in general. This is like an actual stance that she's making. Yeah, I mean, a couple of answers to that. I think one is because of the main story that we have about her gives you a concept. of what she's being put up against. So I explain that in a second. But the second one is also a reflection of the society.

So what's cool about the Moiska people is women in that society held quite high, you know, powers and privileges. But also they had a very open attitude to sex. Like, so they had polygamy was quite normal. You love the concept of virginity. So they didn't really regard virginity highly, which is quite unusual in ancient cultures. Because as you know, that's a currency for. for, you know, like, oh, here's my virgin daughter, give me five yak,

or I don't know what they do, right, that sort of thing, yeah? But they think that virgins are kind of the ugliest, and they seem to have kind of like a reasonably open attitude to sexuality. So when you put that context in, it makes more sense that you have a goddess that's like dedicated to the pursuit of pleasure. Yeah. It doesn't make so much sense if you think of other cultures which are densely patriarchal, but it does for this culture and also has story.

So the story of Wittaka is really interesting. So ultimately she's, like I said, she's a partying goddess. So she's into any kind of hedonistic pleasures, including sex, but also kind of free-spirited, wildness. And in lots of ways she embodies that type of feminine quality. And one of the reasons we can be quite sure about her is because she has an opposite. And the opposite of her is Boquika, who is a masculine energy. And he represents kind of, he's a god, he's not an energy,

but he represents, you know, kind of a masculine energy. and he's all about like, you know, kind of order, morality, rules. And so they're opposite. In some ways you can see then she's the opposite. She's like kind of like lawless, wild. So the story goes with her that she goes out party and does her thing. Bokika doesn't like it because obviously he wants law and order. And so he turns her into a white owl.

So I quite like that motif as well because she's destined to be at night when you imagine a lot of hedonistic stuff goes on, right? Partying, sex. I mean, you can have sex in the day, but you know what I mean? I think that people think of the night as a sort of sexual time. I don't know. And I think that, you know, there's this concept of her, like being this owl that's constantly watching in the night,

like doomed to watch in the night, watch on, which is quite an interesting concept. Is this one of those stories that is kind of left to us through the lens of colonizers? Because that's always a tricky one. isn't it? It is tricky. Yeah, this was really annoying in the book, Kate,

and I know you understand this as a history. I feel your pain entirely. I almost decided to quit about five seconds in when I realised how blooming hard. I mean, basically, that's why I've got, when you read the book, guys, there's an introduction, which is kind of like, there's an old introduction to the book,

then there's a bit like a caveat section, which is a bit like, these are the things I can't do. A lot of scholars shy away from these kind of stories because of the difficulty with the evidence. but because I'm not an academic in a university I felt a bit freer and I felt like I could explore things

with some caveats and not completely terrify myself over like the academic rigour of it but be honest when I come across some material that's complicated but you're right yeah this is another one that's through because what happens is the Spanish

come and colonise and so you get a lot of kind of Catholic chroniclers writing about it and conquistadors and yeah you can imagine the dodginess and it's so and it's so difficult because what when you're trying to claim women's voices back from the past?

Like the number of times I've marched into history going, I'm going to tell women's story from women's point of view, and then within like five minutes, you're going, oh, fuck. Yes. It's just not there. The sources aren't there. And here you are trying to tell the story of women in an indigenous culture that's been colonised.

I mean, that is a tall order and you've done it spectacularly well. Oh, thank you. I mean, I think also the other thing is the way I've chosen to do it. So I write about this as well. I don't go into loads of footnotes or nuance. And I leave a bibliography for others who want to kind of get into the sources a bit more. But I think that's where this book was good because it is a, I could call it a first date in the book. I'm like, it's a first date with a culture. So we don't need to know that nuance. We can have a general understanding of a culture. And I leave like the in-depth, crazy,

deep academic stuff to people like you that are doing it from universities. Up to you. you can do that. I'm a bit freer. I can just do some research to get the general concept out there. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense. I think that you can get hampered and bogged down with like the kind of responsibility of like, oh, but it's who's saying it, why they say it. And it's important to acknowledge it. But I think that just because it's been written by a colonising asshole doesn't mean that there's not some value in it somewhere. I think that's the problem, Kate, and you'll know this as a historian. People then, because of that issue, that barrier to entry, if you like, people go, I'm not doing it. And I really respect that. I'm not, I'm not, this is not bashing anyone, so I totally understand how difficult it is. But because of that, we don't get the stories.

And we get a bit obsessed with like, like, in some ways, we have to defend it more than if you were defending something else. Like, if you were writing about war, people wouldn't ask you to go through so many hurdles to defend your evidence in the same way we do with women. And I get that there are more difficulties with the source material, but not always. In some ways, we don't bother because it's like, oh, it's too hard. That's not fair. There are a lot of people bothering, but I mean,

there is a barrier, isn't there? It feels hard. But it's really hard to get to this stuff. Like, it's so, so difficult. If what you're looking for is a first-hand account of somebody who worships Huttaka back in the 17th century, a diary somewhere, that just doesn't exist. No, it doesn't exist. I think that's why I've also got some storytelling weaved in. And it is a work of nonfiction, but it has an element of this sort of artistic license I can do when I do a story where I can imagine a little bit.

And the thing I want to say is it's always very clear in the book when I'm doing that. Yeah. She's not just making shit like people. No, now I'm thinking it sounds like I've made it up. No, I made it up. It's quite clear each time. If I've got a source and I've used it, I've explained and I've always said that I'm, if I'm going to, storytelling sections elaborated.

But there is a slight frowning upon, I think, in academic circles about goddess scholarship. Ooh, that's interesting. Why do you say that? If you go back into the first scholars that are kind of writing about this, I'll say the first, but there's a wave of women from the 60s and 70s academics that chose to look into goddess worship. And their male counterparts kind of poo-pooed that as a kind of like Earth Mother motif. Like they're kind of like, oh, they're just sort of spiritual hippie-dippy kind of things. And again, because of the additional issues with the source material like we've discussed,

it became a bit of a difficulty. And I actually know some scholars that are working in the areas of goddess. who are struggling with like getting funding and stuff because there is this there is this confusion and concept about well is this really a thing you know like it's not like it's not a thing like it has no validation to look into it which sucks and I'm not in for that so if everyone buys this book they'll tell everyone that it's really important and they'll become really popular and then we can get more evidence

but it is really important because I suppose if you're an asshole you could maybe make the argument of like but these are effectively stories from thousands of years ago, I suppose if you were going to be that kind of person to go, well, of what value is it? But actually, looking at the mythology and the culture of people in the past and what they believed and what they thought possible, there is a value in that, like knowing that there was a goddess who was a goddess of sexual rebellion. And we know that because she had a counterpart who was about law and order. That tells us something about sex in the past that's very important. Oh, completely.

from an academic perspective, you're absolutely right. Like, you know, what is the point of mythology? Mythology is created by the minds of the people that lived there. So they're customs, their values, their interests, their fears, all of it is entrenched in that mythology. So the point of mythology is to do that, is to look at mythology and go, what is this reflecting in the society?

And then you can look back at the archaeology, the history, and see where you get things matching up. And then that's when you can be like, oh, cool, this is what they thought. But, I mean, if we just step out of this and just be normal people, for a minute, two normal people that live on the planet Earth in 2024. There's nothing wrong with wanting the stories. Like stories, they were stories back then. They were there.

I mean, in most mythologies, they were both religion and entertainment. Why can't we go back and look at these stories again, just as people today and go, oh, what do I feel about that now? This is our shared ancestry, it's our shared history. So I think it's all right to just read my book and not get into the nuance of this and just go, I kind of like that story. That was interesting. These are good stories.

And I felt good reading that. I didn't feel good because some are a bit intense. I'm not going to lie. That's fine too. That's the point about it. I hope that it's got layers, the book, so you can go in whatever layer you want to go in at, you know? It absolutely has layers. And when you were looking at somebody like Fetaka or Freya, have you found other goddesses with sort of similar traits? I think what's kind of interesting about them is how they've been described in the past. And you've got a chapter on Ishtar Anana, sort of the original bad girl. And when When you look at historical descriptions of like how scholars in the past have described these goddesses,

they're often described kind of very casually as goddesses of fertility. Oh, yeah. Fertility goddesses. But they're not really. No. They're not. Like Anana isn't a fertility goddess. She doesn't have any kids.

Like Freya isn't a fertility goddess. She's not banging dwarves to make babies over here. No, exactly. Quittaka's not, from what we see, there's no children associated to her, I don't think. Artemis, another goddess in the book, I tried to keep away from that fertility element. Not that it doesn't exist, it would be wrong of us to sit here and say,

oh, they're not involved in fertility. They are, but you are absolutely right that nearly all of these goddess are gone, they'll go like, oh, it's a bit sexual over there, that's fertility. That was how it went for like decades in this scholarly work. It was like, oh, she's got her boobs out, fertility. Fertility.

You know, that's it. Oh, boobs there again, fertility. What is sort of the danger in that, do you think, of just ascribing any goddess that's kind of a little bit naughty. Fertility, that's what's going on over here. It's fertility. Well, I mean, the danger is if I look at you as a woman today and say, you're just something that makes babies, Kate. Doesn't that make you feel a bit annoyed? Slightly, yes. This is a tiny, tinty bit, maybe a little bit angry.

I mean, that's the reason, because I get that these goddesses are not real women, but they represent aspects of viewpoints on femininity at least, right? even if they don't reflect even the real women of the time because they don't, their goddesses. But what they do do is they give us, I guess, the picture of what people think women are. So if a man wants to, in 1975, making up a time when they used to call it fertility all the time, right, look at a naked woman and go like a sculpture of a goddess and go, oh, that's fertility. No, no, because you can't do that. Because what was somebody else looking at like 3,000 years ago, looking at it and thinking?

And I think this sort of just watering down women to be this thing that just have babies is obviously, I mean, we've got to get to the main point that that is actually what was going on in most of these cultures. Even some of these cultures with cool aspects where women were doing cool and interesting things. 99% of the time they are there to have babies and they are making babies. And that's the main role that they have as housewives and mothers, right? And I haven't really come across a culture where women, although there were lots of aspects. where they were freer, that's still kind of the main point. So I can't deny that there isn't aspects of fertility,

but it is really dangerous to kind of demote women at any time in history as just these things that pop out kids. I mean, that annoys me now. It annoys me too. And if you were a goddess and you happen to be a goddess of infinite sexual power and someone's going, ah, fertility goddess. I think you would be a little bit miffed at that mischaracterisation too. Well, yeah, I mean, Freya's not having sex with a dwarves, is she to have babies.

She, that wasn't the point, she wanted a necklace. And Huataka is having sex because it's fun. And Inanna says, who will plow my vulva? I mean, that doesn't sound like in brackets to have a baby. But you say, Anna has no children as far as we know. Artemis is a virgin, but is her choice. Before we move on to Artemis, what do you think is the lesson of Hittaka? I mean, just like, own your own sexuality.

I mean, in some ways it's a bit like Freya. I feel like those who have a bit of similarity, to be honest, a bit of crossover. But it's just not just, like not having to justify your pursuit of pleasure. I mean, again, it's a man that kicks her down, right? If you just like wiggle out from under that a minute, like, why can't a woman go do partying? I mean, what all these hashtags now? Brat summer, hot girl summers. I don't know what that means.

I mean, I know what brat is, but I think it means like, I think it's just like doing things the way you want to do it and not giving a shit. Well, that sounds like, that sounds like Hittal. That sounds like Wehaka. Like she can be a brat goddess, right? For sure. Why not? I think it's that sort of vibe, you know, and I think it's also rebellion. She's very rebellious. I mean, that's the point. I'm not doing what you say I'm going to do. I'm going to do what I feel like I want to do. And I think that's quite a powerful thing for women. How many women do you know that are just gone, I'm done with these rules. I just want to. Quite a few. It tends to be as you're getting older, sort of around about 35. I think all women and men have this moment of like, oh shit. Fuck this. This is ballacks. Yeah, exactly. I'll be back with Jasmine after this short break. But let's talk about Artemis, because it's very important that we say that it's not all sexy naughty, sexy goddesses.

Some of them have turned that down entirely, and Artemis is one of them. Yeah, I mean, Artemis is like probably one of the goddesses that more of your listeners will know of, because she's one of the Greek goddesses. And the story I choose to tell about Artemis is the story of Actaeon. So Artemis is like goddess of quite a few different things, but nature, fertility, hunting, animals, the wild, that sort of thing. The story goes that she was in the forest, as you do, bathing, naked, as you do. And Actaeon was knocking around hunting, probably.

And he caught sight of the goddess naked. Bad move. And that's a big no-no, can't do that. And so then the wrath of Artemis is pretty decent. So she turns him into a stag and his own hunting dobs rip him apart, tear him limb from limb. It's a very kind of Game of Thrones-esque, isn't it? Kind of brutality that I was kind of quite into.

And that's the thing. Like, she has often been relegated to a little demure little virgin goddess. Don't think so, love. Just have a look at that. She was known to be quite jealous and angry, wasn't she a lot, Artemis? Like, she had a little sort of girl squad around her. The squad of nymphs is just, they're kind of like a sidekick, so I don't really do much. But the wrath of Artemis is really interesting.

Because if you know about Artemis, then you'll know about her wrath, but most people who have like, you know, kind of a more general knowledge of of her think of her as this virgin goddess that just knocks about in the woods. Yes. Yeah. That's what, especially, I don't want to, I feel like I'm man bashing a lot today. I like men. I'm not having to go at men, but there's been a lot of this male driven scholarship, again, not necessarily today, but, you know, historically, where they really quite like to make a massive point of her virginity and kind of make that about everything about her. Whereas I think actually, she's so much more than that. And look at the wrath is the part of her, which

makes her even more multifaceted and interesting to me. Why do you think there's been a big focus on Artemis the Virgin? And what, I mean, I know you've just said that people focus on it too much, and I'm going to focus on it. That's all right. But what is it about this virginal status of this goddess? And I think that it's really interesting what he said, because it often misses off the point that she wasn't just that.

She wasn't like this little Jimmy O' nun type of a character. She was very angry and quite bitchy. and I don't know if you'd want to be her friend if I'm completely honest. I'm definitely scared of her. I would be, wouldn't you? Yeah, you'd be like, oh my God, do you want to write something wrong in a WhatsApp? She'd go, she goes to do. God, Artemis's WhatsApp group, like she would kick your ass out within seconds if you'd said something wrong.

Yeah, it would be bad. What is the significance of virginity to this goddess? Well, I think you've got, again, go to the culture. We know obviously so much about Greek culture that is even more easy to answer that question. I think there's something the other goddess is. So again, very patriarchal and virginity needed to be guarded. Lots of obsession with legitimacy. So you can't have a baby out of wedlock.

You know, it's we want our women pure and chaste and everything. So we know that when we have babies with them, no man's touch and not sullied. And then the baby's definitely ours, right? That's the sort of like male thinking in Greece about their wives and women. And so it doesn't surprise me that they would put her up on a pedestal as a young maiden. that looks after her virginity so harshly like that. And that's true.

And that's the thing that sometimes these viewpoints are actually true. But you almost hide behind that and don't get to the nuance or the interesting parts, which is the bits I'm more interested in this book. You know, she was a figure for young women, especially women going through puberty. And you got to remember as well, they get married younger in Greece than they would have done today. It's not like not getting married at like 45. Probably they're getting married at like, you know, 13, 14, 15, something like that, you know.

So she was a very important. very important goddess to that age group and there are a number of like kind of festivals and initiations that relate to that age group. The age group of those go through puberty. So like in some way she just reflects that group and what they're interested in. But it's really important to note as well that like Artemis is also related to childbirth. So you're like, hang on a minute. That makes no sense. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, women in childbirth might also pray to Artemis because she's also the goddess

of the wild, of nature. It's an interesting job share she's got going on, isn't it? They've all got interest in job shows. They do. Their CVs are very flexible. I think they could go for any job. And I often look at them and think, how did you end up with all? I guess it's just because the goddesses, they must merge over thousands of years with other belief systems somewhere. Because they can't have just emerged.

If like someone was designing a goddess, you wouldn't be kind of like, right, so she's the goddess of virginity. Okay, that's good. The moon, okay, I can kind of see what you're doing there. Childbirth. Oh, right. Okay. And you sort of list, like, how is it? come all of these different things together.

It fascinates me. It makes sense that it's because there's an evolution, of course. Like you said, like you might start off with one major thing, but then as time goes on, connections. I mean, you know, some of these things are connected. So, like, you know, like she's clearly a goddess in the domain of women because you see childbirth and virginity. The moon has feminine qualities as opposed to her twin brother Apollo, who's the sun.

So that makes some sense to me. The wild is actually nature. we often feminize nature as she, don't we? I can see that. The wild. All of this stuff is quite feminine. So in some ways she's just got different facets of femininity. But that doesn't necessarily explain people like Inanna,

goddesses like Anna who have got like everything, like war and sex and marriage, all sorts of stuff, you know. I think one of the things that we kind of miss a trick with Artemis and other goddesses of virginity is it's not about being sexually demure. It's quite a defiant statement. It's the, I don't want to have sex with a man. I don't want to get married. I don't want to be tied down in this patriarchal system.

And that angle of it is often lost. Yeah, that's right. I mean, again, I think we're reading that from a more modern perspective. It's a bit hard to know what the ancient Greek women, especially that worshipped her will have seen in her. Whether they would have seen like a wild abandon and freedom that they don't have, that's quite possible. but we can't know for sure, as the usual thing,

caveat the beginning of this conversation about can't know what women thought back then and all the usual stuff, that same problem. But I think for us today, that's interesting. Because she can easily become an icon for people today. This is the thing, like you say, you have your girl crushes, you have the people you look up to today.

You can make ancient goddesses, one of those for you. And I think also, like her connection to the wild is really important because I think that that whole concept of nature, and femininity be quite entwined. I think it's quite interesting. What is the lesson that you have learned from Artemis? I mean, I think for that particular story, because there's obviously millions of stories, I think thinking about a particular story in general, I think I would say about her agency, her choice and her power. She's very powerful. I don't know what you would say

to this, but I think a modern notion of virginity being like a weakness or like a bad thing. I don't know how many people who are virgins feel empowered by being virgins. I'm sure some people have chosen it and feel empowered in that choice. Boys, not so much. There's been some research on that and boys find it quite shaming, whereas girls have a much more complicated relationship to it. So, you know, like, I think that that's interesting, isn't it? And I think that she has chosen this and we're not just choosing it, but like, vehemently defend it.

She will rip a literal man's legs off. Even looking at it. They even sees that naked. So I think that like I said In all of these goddesses There's the chance to find new icons Maybe at a time when we're losing our shit a little bit It's a bit hard, isn't it?

The world's a bit crazy It is And I suppose that her rage being celebrated Almost It's certainly not a reason for her to be kicked out At the Pantheon I think women getting angry Is still quite a taboo thing

Yeah There's a lot about that in the book as well About rage and owning your rage and anger I've got a really Really angry goddess in there called Rangda from Bali and I think yeah this is an absolute

really important point we're not really allowed are we to lose it I mean I'm not trying to say go out there and get like go and rip a man's legs off like she does with Actaon but I mean

it's a bit much guys don't do that it's been illegal in most countries as far as I know but yeah I definitely feel like that aspect of anger that is very uncomfortable for a lot of people

men and women actually all genders to express anger feels very taboo I think I think so. And I think there is a gendered bias when it comes to anger. There's a lot of research around that as well that shows that women are viewed as angry, much quicker than men will be reviewed as angry. A man in the same situation, if he raises his voice, will be viewed as assertive, authoritative, passionate even, but a woman doing exactly the same thing. This is under clinical conditions, by the way. They are perceived by the respondents as being much more aggressive. So it is still a taboo thing. Yeah, absolutely. And you add in women of colour, especially black women. Yes. And how much that amplifies that exact point.

So let's get pissed off. But my final question, you've been absolutely amazing, is do you have a sneaky favourite of all your goddesses? Maybe one that didn't even make the cut. But if you had to, it's like Sophie's choice, but if you had to pick one. I know, it's like all my children, you're like, pick one. I like different things. I like a variety as a person. So you will get a different answer. If you ask me tomorrow, it would be a different answer. Today, I'm feeling Rangda, the Balinese goddess.

The angry one. The angry one. You know, she's a goddess of literally evil, but she is needed because to have evil is to have balance. It's like a yin yang concept. You need your dark. Otherwise, you're not balanced. And so she represents that. And her story is cool and brutal.

And again, I doubt very few people have heard of her or understand her story. So I think she's my favorite because that concept of like, it's what I really love it when it's things that we really, really feel like we have to suppress, and I'm trying to get us to not suppress, you know, let's get it out there. And her story is cool, it's really cool. And she's actually got us of real evil, you know, like it's evil her stuff. Her followers eat newborn babies. It's not normal stuff.

Oh, yeah, that's pretty evil. Yeah. It's good stuff. It's good story. But like also, we need our dark. We need that. So, Rage we just spoke about with Artemis. We need that.

We need the ranger inside of us. Jasmine, you have been fabulous to talk to. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? They can find me on the old Instagram. I don't really go anywhere else anymore because there's a lot of effort, all this social media malarkey. So I'm one Instagram as legit classicist. My website's got quite a lot about what I'm doing. Got a nice shiny new website.

My whole vibe is History of Soul. And give us the full title of the book, which people can buy as of today. Yeah, you can get it everywhere. So just wherever you like to buy your books. And it's a goddess with a thousand faces by me, Jasmine Elman. and if you buy it, you'll be my best friend forever, even though I might never meet you. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

You've been so much fun. Yeah, I loved this. Thanks so much, Kate. Thank you for listening, and thank you so much to Jasmine for joining me. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to explore a subject, or maybe you just fancy saying hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. We've got everything on episodes on The History of Underware to Sexuality and Atecuality and Ate. ancient Mesopotamia, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delaghy and produced by Stuart Beckworth. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets,

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