Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Bond Girls

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

‘Bond girl’ is quite a loaded term. Why aren’t they women? What makes them part of this homologous team? And what does it mean if they have red hair?In this episode, Kate speaks to Dr Lisa Funnell, award winning author and expert on all things Bond. She is here to tell us about the different eras of Bond girls and why it’s so important to revisit our old favourites.Produced by Charlotte Long and Sophie Gee. Mixed by Pete Dennis.Betwixt the Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society. A podcast by History Hit.For more History Hit content, subscribe to our newsletters here.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Lovely bit twixters, it's me, Kate Lister. I am here with your fair do's warning to make sure that nobody gets overly offended whilst listening to this complete nonsense that's going to come your way. We just have to be extra specially sure.

So, this is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, and you should be an adult too. I don't actually think this is the rudest one that we've done. No, we're looking at Bond girls today. So we'll probably be straying into discussions around sex, and there's definitely some swearing and just all the things that James Bond entails.

And if that's not for you today, then fair do's. You have been warned, and you can back out now while you still can. For the rest of you, let's do it. She's silhouetted in the opening credits. She's seduced by drink and some well-timed quips and chatter blinds. But however instrumental she may have been in Bond's mission, or however much that spy seemed to actually love her by the end of the film, don't even worry about it, she's magically forgotten by the time the next lot of opening credits roll around.

What is a Bond girl? Today, betwixt the satiny sheets, we are sliding in to find out. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs. by just turning enough and pushing the fun. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

Goodness, I'm beautiful done. Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie. And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal and society. With me, Kate Lister. 70 years ago, this week, Ian Fleming released the first novel in the series which has become entwined with Britishness.

Whether you like it or not. When you think of James Bond, What do you think of? Fast cars, cocktails, shaken, not stirred, some very questionable methods of international espionage. Well, you can hear about all of these things this month in a special series on our sister podcast patented the history of inventions. But you probably also have conjured up the image of at least one bond girl into your sordid little brains. So, who are these women? Why do we never actually call them women? They've always bond girls. Girls, little girls, it's quite patronising really, isn't it? And what about the female villains?

What space is there for them in the Bond franchise? Well, for this episode, I'm joined by none other than Lisa Funnel to hear about the women of James Bond. And no, it's not just pussy galore. Oh, and welcome to Betwixta Sheets. It's only Lisa Funnel. How are you? I am good. How are you?

I am mesmerized by everything that you've got behind you. And listeners can't see it, but it's just this absolute corner copier. I can see Star Wars thing. I can see Wookiees. I can see James Bond. This is like, I'm having a nerdgasm just looking at it. It's amazing. I love it.

And, you know, I've had the privilege of being able to study what I love. And even my office at work has pictures and posters and figurines. And it's the place where nobody wants to leave. So people who come into my office, I always have a problem of getting them out because they want to just look at my stuff. Do you have like a prized possession in your office? I'm sure it's all very precious, but like something that's like that if there was a fire, that would be the one that you went for. So not in my office, but right beside me, I have a VHS set of the James Bond films. And that's what my dad and I used to watch when I was growing up.

And they are my prize possessions. I did my first research project watching the VHS tapes, and that is literally in my box. So I used to live in Oklahoma, and you're in the middle of Tornado Alley. And I used to bring them into my, like, tornado shelter. Oh, my God. You realize, like, your house and all your possessions could go away. And so I would bring that box down with pictures, mementos. It was what I was safe.

And my dog. That's what I was safeguarding. The dog was down there first, and then everything else. just letting you know the order. But it was, you know, that prize possession that you're like, I just don't want to lose this because it means so much to me. Is that what brought you to studying James Bond was this, like watching it as a child with your father and it sort of clicked and just went, I need to know more about this? Yeah. So we would have Sunday dinners in front of the TV and we got to pick our favorite films. And of course, you know, Star Wars was on the list, Indiana Jones,

of course the classics. But we would always really lean towards James. Bond and really the Roger Moore James Bond films because they were fun and they were adventurous and we would laugh and it was just a really great bonding experience, pun intended, really with my dad, we connected on that really deep level. And so when I went to university, when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, it was a checklist of everything I didn't want to do, right? I didn't want to go into math or science. I was really attracted to film. I did an undergraduate thesis on Schwarzenegger films and masculinity, because I also love Schwarzenegger films.

And then when I did my master's degree, I had Jim Leach, who was a professor at Brock University, he's part of that first generation of Bond Scholars just coming out in the early 2000s. He says, why don't you just study James Bond? And so I did a whole master's thesis on the Bond Girl phenomenon. And then my research just took off from there.

I just kept researching and finding more things to think about, to discuss, us, different lenses. And really it is focused a lot on women because without women, I don't want to say James Bond is boring, but the world of bond has been made so much better by women and their contributions and his interactions with them. And so that's where my focal point has been. Who are these women? How have they evolved? How do they contribute for better or for worse? You know, over time, it doesn't mean that things have just gotten better. And then moving forward, or just trying to understand their legacy

because these women are icons. And so it's really important to understand what is their legacy cinematically in the world of Bond. How do we think about them? How do we remember them and represent them? So, I mean, it's been a really great job that I've had doing this, right? Oh, my God. When you were talking then, I had a sudden flashback.

I used to watch the Sean Connery James Bond's with my granddad and we used to sit there and watch them. And I remember being mesmerized by the women on it. I mean, I was interested in James Bond, but these women just seemed so exotic to a very little girl in the north of England. Absolutely. And I remember I used to watch Octopusy a lot. And I wanted to be Megda. Yes. I wanted to figure out, like, if I need to escape, how do I use this shawl around my body and go backwards out of a window and descend? I thought it was just so cool and innovative, right? Yes. And I wanted to be part of that posse of, like, empowered women who could fight for themselves and protect themselves. as a young girl in Canada.

I was like, that's really cool. It's something to aspire to. And as you say growing up, I don't want to say we had limited role models and icons, but it was kind of like Wonder Woman, Princess Leia. And for me, it was the women of James Bond. Just women that I could see myself and I could see potential doing, that I could be heroic, that I could do whatever I wanted to and take care of myself. Yeah.

And I always found inspiration in that. They're really complex, aren't they, the women in James Bond? because I'd love to say that they were all inspirational. I suppose to me as a child, they all were. They were either amazingly beautiful or they could kick someone's ass. And that was all great. But as you kind of grow up and you know, you get your critical lens on it and someone goes, have you heard of feminism?

And then you're like, oh, okay, I'll have a look at that. And then you kind of go back to it and you're like, oh, hang on a minute. There's actually, there's quite a lot of head. It's a bit challenging. The whole idea of a Bond girl. Yes. That's quite, I mean, it's ubiquitous, isn't it? Like you said, can you have a James Bond without a woman in it?

but the actual idea of it being a girl, a bond girl? What's your take on that? Well, I'll preface my comments by saying this. As a scholar, as somebody who talks about this, we do need a term that is recognizable that we can utilize, right? So when I write a research paper, if I don't put the term bond girl in, then people researching that character or character type won't find my work. No, no, that's very true. Yeah. So like I understand the way that it's used, but sometimes we don't think about the meaning behind the language. So on the one hand, you mentioned the girl part. So talking about adult professional women as girls

could be used as a way to infantilize them to reduce their importance in the narrative. And when you think about it, there's a really great scene where James Bond interacts with Sheriff Pepper, and Sheriff Pepper calls him a boy, and that's considered an insult. And so I find it interesting

that the men of the films are not referred to as boys unless it's in an insulting manner, but the women are referred to as girls to represent their single status, for instance. And even if you look at the way that we talk about them, we call James Bond Bond or Felix Lighter, lighter. But typically we refer to the women of the films by their first names. It's not even even.

So it would be like referring to a male scholar by his last name and me by my first name, right? Yeah. Language matters. And so that seems to happen a lot. And is it to emphasize single status, but no matter what it's unequal. And then you have the bond factor, right?

are not just girls, they're bonds girls. The fact that the term girl is connected to the term bond as if there's some level of possession or they don't have an identity, they cannot exist without him. Yeah. And yet we don't have bond boys. No, I've never heard of a bond boy. Never heard of that, you know, whatsoever. And so it's an interesting term and there have been women who have felt uncomfortable with the term. So Monica Balucci came out and says, I am not a bond girl. I'm a woman. Wow. I want to be referred to as a woman. There are reports that the Bond Girl term is no longer used on set. And so when people ask me about it, you know, are you taking this too far? It's about understanding the language that we're using,

the fact that not all people who are in that type of role really identify with that term and respecting that fact, but also recognizing the importance of language of how do we talk then about these women or search for them. So language becomes a very complicated thing. And so I always say, think about the words that you use in the meetings that are being conveyed and do you mean it. So when I would write about these women, I might use the term bond girl once and then use variations. So the women of bond, bond heroes or women heroes, and just try to use variation in my language so that I'm not saturating it with a term that I'm not really a fan of, but that my reader already knows who I'm talking about. And so it's my way of just trying to like get around the issue or find a creative solution, just not. to use the term as much. When we say Bond girls, it's sort of one of those things that everybody kind of, like, we instantly sort of think we know what you're referring to. But does the term like Bond Girl, does that refer to all women in James Bond?

Or is it just his sex interests? Is there a differentiation? Would Pussy Galore be a Bond Girl? Is M in the later, once is she a Bond Girl? Like, who makes the cut? It's a great question. And so when I did my own research, one of the things that I wanted to do was untangle the web of women because there are women who are heroes and lead protagonists. There are women

who are antagonists. So the villains and women villains are delicious. They always tend to be more fun, more expressive, more transgressive, love women villains. And I tend to cheer for them in movies because I'm like, I would fight for that cause, right? And then you have a whole bunch of women, some who are named, some who are unnamed, some who you see. And then we have fragmented women in the credits. So there's this diversity of women and so forth. For me, I utilize the term Bond Girl for the lead woman protagonist. Okay. And then I use different terms for secondary characters because there are different sets of,

I don't want to say rules and regulations, but it's a different type of character or archetype. Whereas the heroes get treated in one way, they tend to be of specific demographic qualities. Villains have a little bit more flexibility and freedom, but they are destined and doomed to die because they challenge bonds, phallic masculinity. And then you have women who are considered a lot more disposable. And it's important to separate them out and see what those parameters are. And then the question is with M, how do we view her? Because if you define the Bond Girl as Bond's greatest love in the film, I don't know. I watch Skyfall and it seems to be M. So it becomes a really complicated characterization as you hit the Daniel Craig era, where they're playing around with a lot of conventions

and blending things together in some interesting ways. Not always the most progressive, but in some really interesting ways. Like listening to you say it there is that you're aware of the inherent limitations of the term Bond Girl, but it's also, it's iconic and it's recognizable. That must be something that they're dealing with in the films as well, because it's like, well, we can't just do away with this because it's as much of James Bond as the you know, the fast cars and the exploding pens. But, like, how do you revise it? My memory of Bond is the really early ones

because my grandpa was a huge Sean Connery fan. And I remember Domino. And I remember, I can't remember the name, the baddie who got shot when they were dancing. And then he puts her down and he goes, oh, she's just dead, artist. And it's like... Oh, Fiona Volpe.

Yes, there you go. And how have you noticed the progression of the iconic Bond girl from these early films, through to now. What's changed and what have we retained? So I would say in the 1960s, you had this binary or this dichotomy between good and bad women. So you had good women who, again, had liberal sexualities. It was the 1960s, right? But typically they would fall in love with bond, support his mission, and in some ways be domesticated by him. He ends up in a relationship with them by the end of the film. And typically they were either blonde or they had dark brownish

blackish hair, right? There were not too many with intermediary shades. And that came from Ian Fleming in his source novels. Whereas the villainous women, again, far more delicious, far more enticing, they actually challenge Bond's libidital masculinity. So somebody like Fiona Vulpé said, when Bond tried to seduced her and she was like, I forgot your ego, Mr. Bond James Bond. You only slept with women and he thinks that there are these heavenly choir singing and she's like, not this one. And she completely trashes this idea that he can sleep with her, make her side with him. But because she's dangerous in that way, she has to die, right? Like, she's a challenge, she's a foil. But he doesn't kill her. In the first three decades, Bond doesn't really kill off women. It's usually the villain who kills them

intentionally. Yeah. So the blame and the blood is on the villain's hands and not James Bond's hands. And these women, if you notice, if you watch the Connery films in succession, the vast majority of them have red hair, playing on those stereotypes of red-haired women. I never noticed that. The buddies are redheads. Yeah. And in the novels, Ian Fleming reserved the color red for male villains so that they had the red and the evil intent in their eyes, but not when it was adapted into film.

Instead, it was the women villains who ended up getting the red hair. And that's supposed to be a signifier of villainy for women in the 1960s. And so you've got this dichotomy of good and bad women. You've got the hair being a signal to us about who's going to be who. And you have this exploration of sex and sexuality, but you also end up at the end of the film with like, but at the end of the day, it's really about bond and women should be in a relationship. And then you hit the 1970s and 1980s. And so I call this sort of the sidekick phase.

You have a lot of American women. So either it's American actors or American. characters. And you see this emphasis on sort of the geopolitical connections between the U.S. and the U.K. So the women tend to represent U.S. interests. Bonn represents U.K. interests. But because he takes these women down a notch, there's also that geopolitical significance of the U.K. is still maybe the superior nation to the American spy partner. So that's an interesting dynamic. And I never see these women as being like true partners. I would say maybe Pambuvier in License to Kill is the most equitable. She's pretty hardcore, pretty badass. And she's a good precursor to what happens

in the 1990s and early 2000s. And my favorite era is the Brosnan era because it gives us the action hero bond girls. And so you have women who are coming in as equal partners to bond. They're engaged in action. Sometimes they have solo action sequences and they challenge. And they challenge. Bond. So you have somebody like Natalia Simanova, who's a computer programmer. She's the brains. Bond is the brawn. And he cannot complete the mission without her. So he's not dragging her along. She's a necessity. You have two of my favorite Bond women who are also the only two women of color to win Oscars, Michelle Yo in Tomorrow Never Dies, and Halle Berry in Die Another Day. Both of them play the most physically empowered, equitable women in the franchise to James Bond.

Super exciting to see them on stage and really carving out, in a sense, taking the archetype and really pushing it forward in terms of just empowerment moving forward. Okay. Then there's the Daniel Craig era. Oh, my goodness, what's happening in the Daniel Craig era? So let me give you a bit of theory. The way I've read it is that you have revisionism going on. So what you do is you take some formula that's really classic, really well-known, you break it down into its basic points, and then you reconfigure the points to build it back up.

So you're revising and reintroducing. So you have an origin story for Bond and his martini and you get the car, right? That's true. Yeah. There's a lot of reintroduction happening. And one of the things that happens is in this reconfiguration, you don't really have a Bond Girl proper. at least for a couple movies. So you look at someone like Vesper Lind who's like, part Bond girl, part villain, but Daniel Craig's James Bond is part Bond, part Bond girl. He's the one who comes out of the water in the bathing suit with the woman from the shore gazing at his body.

Is that different, do you think? Because I remember Sean Connery running around in his neckers quite a lot. Oh, well, he did. He certainly did. But the image that they're mirroring here is of Honey Rider coming out from Dr. No and Hallie Berry, right? and it's taking and twisting it in order to sort of blur and blend these lines, which is fascinating. We talked about Skyfall.

You've got so many times you're thinking, is Eve the central love interest? No. Is it Severine? No. Is it M? You really don't have a Bond Girl proper until you hit Spector, right? And that's where you get Dr. Madeline Swan, who's being presented as the woman for Bond. Like that is, from there on end, that is the argument.

that they give. And if she looks and feels familiar, it's as if they took bits and pieces from all of our favorite Bond women and put them there. So like Tracy DeVincenzo, so Bond's wife from Honor Majesty's Secret Service, you have her father who wants Bond to be with the daughter. You know, she's a doctor. She's ambitious and she tells Bond like it is, like Natalia Simanova. Like there's all these parallels of sort of the best qualities put together and they create the argument that this This is the woman for Bond. And they play that through No Time to Die. Okay.

So it's really interesting from a leading woman perspective where things fall. But there's also some very interesting sort of secondary women. So someone like Paloma, who's played by Anna da Armis, who I think is the most exciting part of No Time to Die. She comes in with that classic Anya Amasava type of energy with the dress, kicks butt and leaves the film. And I was left there. thinking, I will watch anything you do in action from now on because she was just so fantastic.

And so there are still exciting moments and other opportunities for women to still shine, even if they're not in that core sort of lead hero role. So sometimes going outside the archetype, outside of the frame, there's a little bit more flexibility. You can imagine them all sat around the table when they're like coming up with the new James Bond is like dealing with Me Too era because there's no way James Bond. would have survived Me Too, even as a spy, he would have been cancelled. And, like, when you actually go back and you watch somebody old film, you do that thing that

you do regularly when you watch something from even 10 years ago. Like, you watch it and you go, oh, fuck. Yeah. That's really bad. That would never, like, in some of the years, like, not even that long ago, but he's very sexually aggressive. He's a predator. He manipulates people.

He's really not very nice. And they seem to have dealt with that with Daniel Craig by making him recognize that. And there's lots of references to him being. quote unquote, a dinosaur. Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right. And so, you know, I've written a paper on sexual violence in the Sean Connery era, and I've talked about it in a couple of the eras. It's important to recognize the fact that this is not just a James Bond thing.

It was a broader cinematic thing. It reflects some attitudes and behaviors of the time. Yeah. But even so, was it ever okay? No. So that's sort of the way that I look at it. And I believe in looking back at these films and talking about them and critiquing them because we learn nothing when we just pretend that they don't exist, right?

Yep, definitely. There's going to be problematic aspects of everything. We're going to grow and evolve as a society. We can look back. I just don't want us to be afraid to look back at things that we love because that's where it hurts. Fandom is deeply personal. And when you look back or when somebody critiques something you love,

you take it as a criticism of you rather than a critique of the text. It's really healthy to critique the things that we watch. I would encourage everybody. Like, I watch stuff and I yell at my TV all the time, right? Because I want to constantly engage. And I think the Daniel Craig era is interesting because there is a scene with Severine in Skyfall that really crosses that line. So she has explained to Bond, you know, not voluntarily, but she's part of the sex trade, that Silva owns her now and that she wants Bond's help to, like, get away from him.

And so he agrees, I'll kill Silva. you'll be fine. And so she's showering on the boat and he walks in on her in the shower. And it just doesn't sit right with me that she's just told you that she's been so sexually exploited. And now, like, we're supposed to think this is a steamy love scene where it doesn't come across right. It seems like it's cringy. And then a couple of scenes later, she's killed off in target practice and completely disposed of in the film. And so there's something so regressive. So a film from 2012, To me, she's the most disempowered woman of the franchise. And that's saying something for a franchise that talks about women and the role of women and the support of women,

especially in the Barbara Broccoli as the producer, her era. And I felt like it was not the right look, the right tone. I always asked the question, who's in the room, who's approving. I'm a huge fan of having women being part of script writing teams from the outset. You know, Phoebe Wallerbridge did a brilliant job coming. in at the end of no time to die, sort of spot shotting and adding pieces in. But I love it when people are part of the creative experience from the beginning. And not just coming into like, add a dash of equity after the fact. It's really important like you're there at the beginning

to really carve things out because that might not have happened because it wasn't necessary. Yeah. It was trying to play to the old school bond and it really didn't land the way that it should. No, it didn't feel right when I watched that one. I mean, you know, when you look back at the older ones, you know, like you were saying is, I'm not a fan of going, oh, well, then they're all awful. We should just cancel them all. I actually think that it's a really positive thing to look back at it and go, Jesus, look at the difference.

And the fact that you're shocked by it means that we've done work and we've changed. I'll be back with Lisa after this short break. Hi there. I'm Don Wildman, the host of the brand new podcast, American History Hit. Join me twice a week as I explore the past to help us underwere understand the United States today. You'll hear how codebreakers uncovered secret Japanese plans for the Battle of Midway. Visit Chief Poetan as he prepares for war with the British.

See Walt Disney accuse his former colleagues of being communists and uncover the hidden history that lies beneath Central Park. From pre-colonial America to independence, slavery to civil rights, the gold rush to the space race. I'll be speaking to leading experts to delve into America's past. new episodes dropping every Monday and Thursday. So join me on American History Hit, a podcast by History Hit.

When you look at sort of like the Daniel Craig era Bun Girls and the later Bun Girls, you can definitely tell there's a difference from sort of the more submissive or the redheads that get killed off. There's been a distinct effort to make them more badass and be able to handle themselves. But they're still within quite a narrow age band, they are still predominantly white. Really what they're doing is they're kicking ass, but they've got amazing tits. sort of what's happens.

It's like they look amazing while they're doing it. And so there's something in it that kind of goes, I really appreciate that they could like throw a man around. But how much more empowered is this? Is Bond going to meet someone his own age? Is he going to meet somebody who perhaps doesn't have like an absolute ripped body? Or, you know, maybe he's a perfect woman. Isn't a doctor amazing firefighter?

She's just someone who works down the local bakery. I don't know. But what's your thoughts on that? They're still exceptional, aren't they? Yeah, and here's the thing. I agree with what you're saying. So when you look at Spector with Monica Balucci, you literally cast Monica Baloochie,

who is one of the most beautiful women in the world. She was older than Daniel Craig. You had all of this press about age-appropriate, but she was literally just like a sexy foil who he sleeps with, and then he moves on for Madeline Swan, who's like 20 years younger. So you had this moment where, like, I wanted her to be Blofeld. I wanted her to have a... But you were going to say something completely different.

No, no, no, no. I wasn't going there. I wasn't going there. I was keeping it clean. Right. Sorry. No worries. But it was one of those things where you had the opportunity.

And yet you fall into typical, I don't want us to call it the Hollywood standards, but sort of the cinematic standards where it's an older man and younger woman. And I've seen those graphs. You look at the Scarlet Johansson love interest graph, the Emma Stone one. And you see these massive. age gaps. And it's like when women hit 30, they're no longer considered valuable and viable. And you look at the treatment of Moneypenny versus Q. So you had Lois Maxwell and Desmond Llewellyn both started in their supportive roles. And there came this moment where they thought that Lois Maxwell was too old to

continue on as Moneypenny. And she said, make me M. And they said, no, we'll never have a woman as M. Spoiler, they did a couple years later. But Desmond Llewellyn was able to continue. until he died, right? He was there well into the Brosnan era, and he was a beloved character. And so we treat men and women on screen differently. And one of my big things for James Bond have always advocated for keeping him in the 40 range. I think we should have stories about men of all ages. And just because you turn 40 or 50, it doesn't mean you're no longer valuable. But we don't have the same narratives for women that you are still valuable at 30 and 40 and 50. And you don't have to play a at 40. And so I feel as though there could have been a great moment with Monica Balucci to make,

it's not even to make a statement, but to recognize the beauty and value of women that was missed. And to your other point about the average woman, one of my favorite relationships is with Kara Malovi in the Living Daylights. Kara is a cello player. She has zero athletic scale whatsoever. But I can tell you when I watch that movie, I believe the love between. Bond and Karam Malovey. I don't know if it was just Marion Diabo and Timothy Dalton, their connection. But that was one of the few times where I really felt like Bond was in love and she loved him. She was a talented cellist, but he didn't value her because of her skill set. He just fell in love with her as a person. And there's something about their relationship that

had always stuck with me where I was like, this is what love looks like. Whereas in most other cases it feels forced. The end sex scene, I'm like, where did this come from? Like, I didn't see any chemistry. It's just expected, whereas theirs, I felt that it was grown. And when you get to see that through a film, you become more connected to the relationship. So, I mean, I would love to see more of that because people vary in terms of their ideas and backgrounds. And I don't know, not everybody's going to be a rocket scientist. Does Bond fall in love a lot? Because they would obviously say there's that one when he got married and then she died pretty damn quick. Like there was obviously somebody that went, look, he married and he loves her, but we can't

have liked it's James Bond. But do you think, like, is there a sense that he's falling in love in these movies or is it? Falling in lust? Falling in lust, I think, yes. Yeah, they definitely try to emphasize that there's some romance involved, you know, whether he's in love with these women or not. I don't know. You know, when you're in an intense situation, you tend to really connect with somebody. Trauma bonds. Yeah, the trauma bonds.

That is something that is there. But when Bond does fall in love, so he does marry Tracy DeVincenzo in Honor Majesty's Secret Service, he had a deep connection with Paris Carver, played by Terry Hatcher and Tomorne Ever Dies. Yes. His relationship with Vesper Lind.

And in all of these cases, I don't want to say the woman has to die, but the woman has to die. Yeah. You know, Bond's primary relationship, not at the moment anymore, but was with Queen and Country. He was a loyal servant to Queen and Country. He was married to his job. And of course, the head of that was the matriarch, the Queen, right? And so it's interesting in Honor Majesty Secret Service, there's this scene where a couple of scenes where Bond is looking at a picture of the Queen.

Is he going to stay with the service, so stay with her, or marry Tracy and he can't look at her? And so it's this idea that marriage, domestication, even having children will actually split the spy away from his true loyalty to queen and country. So think about it. You've got James Bond who's married or has kids. If you want to threaten him and you can't get to him, you go to his family. Yes. It becomes an instant vulnerability. And Bond will act probably in service to his family, which would be his number one loyalty. So there is this logic of the films that if you fall in love, you know, people die. Felix Leiter got married in license to kill and Della had to die. It's this really weird, but you can understand the logic

that really gets pushed through. And then of course, then Bonn becomes hardened and he's going to go out to the next mission and we can understand why he's that cold-hearted spy. It works within the logic. I find it interesting because in Ian Fleming's novels, Bonn said he would never get married, but he wanted to be a father. So I always found that quite interesting. Okay. That that's That's how in the 1950s, Ian Fleming conceptualized bond as potentially being a father someday. But there's all these rules that, for instance, women in the novels, they couldn't get married. There was the idea that you had to be 100% loyal to your job and that you couldn't get married. And if you were interested, then you have to quit the service.

So it's not as if this comes out of nowhere. These are ideas that probably stemmed from the 1950s that have just been pushed through the bond franchise. eyes. And then of course if Bonn, let's just say he gets married, how awkward is it if he like has to seduce a woman? How awkward is it? Because we're going to be like, but aren't you married? We'll all be sat there just going, boo! Yeah. Like, then we're not siding with him, right? And then sort of the salacious aspects that have been an appeal of Bond are no longer there. So then is he truly bond? Can't be humanizing these women for God's sake. Right? I mean, you bring up a good point. Like, are these women humanized?

Do they have a range of personalities? Again, I always like my women villains because at least you see a broader range and usually a motivation as to why and some autonomy of purpose, which is, to me, exciting. And so I think it's interesting. Are these women humanized?

Are they meant to be humanized in a film that's about James Bond? Or is that just secondary? I mean, that brings me very nicely on to the question of the names because I think the names play a rather big part in potentially dehumanizing them. And I think that you probably could make quite a strong case for that. I mean, that you've said earlier that they referred to as girls, which is quite infantilizing bond girls. They belong to him.

And they've also got these incredible porn star names. Yeah. And so there are the double entendres. And so a double entendre, it has a literal first meeting. But usually there's some sort of secondary meeting. And in the bond world, it's usually a sexual meeting in nature. So you have have pussy galore, Dr. Holly Goodhead, Anya Amasova is known as Agent Triple X. And there's a lot more as we go forward. And so the question is, what is their purpose? And so I've had people say, it's just fun. It's funny. And I think there's a difference between laughing with someone and laughing at them. And in this case, it puts them as being the butt of the joke based on their name. So Bond laughs at them and at their names. We laugh with Bond. And in turn, the

question is then do we take a doctor who's named Dr. Holly Goodhead seriously? She's an astrophysicist and a CIA agent and she's flying a rocket. She's an accomplished woman. Yeah. And it takes her down a notch. And I think that is also part of these naming conventions. And we have to recognize

that that is the way that we receive it and the way that it's positioned in the film for us. Like it's not just like it's there and we're coming to it from a vacuum and making our own decisions, it's being positioned in a certain way that we're supposed to laugh at them. And they're not in on the joke. Yeah. And it's not considered that funny for them.

How have the names evolved? Because I don't, I'm trying to think now of the most recent women in the Bond franchise. They're not like walking around called a vagina go lightly or anything like that. There's an interesting moment in Cassina Royale. So Vesperlind believes she's going undercover with James Bond into a hotel. And he gives her the cover name, I think, is it, Tiffany Broadchest or something like that? And she gets mad at him. Pouty McBoop.

Yeah, like something ridiculous. And then it turns out that's not her alias and everything's fine. So they did poke fun at it in Casino Royale, like, here's a nod to the past, but we're kind of not doing that moving forward. So they did have their moment. But I would say a lot of that, even the 1990s, was reduced down. So you've got Natalia Simanova, you've got Wei Lin. Jinks still has a double entendre.

She's good luck. But not to the same sexual components or natures. I mean, they are cool names, aren't they? You'd have to say that. But then I think perhaps you'd have to say that's Hollywood, wouldn't you? Maybe. I don't know how many Vespers. No.

And the thing is, like, Vesper Lin comes from the novel. So that's definitely putting it through. But, like, there are others who've just been added in. Well, then that's there to crack that joke because people laughed the first couple times. So it's a very formulaic aspect. And it is a question, should that continue on? Does it need to continue on? So would sexual violence need to continue on?

Is Bond more than those elements? Is it the same bond in the Daniel Craig era? Is sexism just a core part of this franchise and even Bond's identity? They could maybe deal with this by revealing James Bond's middle name. if it was dick or something like that. And then he could have just had a stupid name as well the whole way through. Yeah. Like it's one of those things where I think James Bond as a name was probably the most mundane

name that Ian Flott, like the most unremarkable thing he could come up with, you know, for a reason. And then everybody else could be kind of exotic. And then Bond could maybe just be sort of that standard by which everybody else is judged. Yeah. I mean, what do you make of, it's really interesting. like where are they going to take it in the future? One of the things that I noticed in the more recent Daniel Craig's one is there's this strange mother figure now that's hanging over him.

Like there was M and it's kind of like, well, obviously he can't possibly fancy Judy Dench so we're going to turn her into this maternal figure and then we're going to kill her as well. Naturally. But then there's this whole like ghosts of his childhood and he was so horribly abused and traumatized. But that's interesting, isn't it? That there's suddenly this family background maternal thing going on

that we haven't seen before. Yeah, and I would pair that with the fraternal thing as well. So you have like in Skyfall, Silva is a fellow agent. And so there's a lot of brotherly fraternal conflict. Oh, yes. And then you go to Spector, same writing crew who makes Spector his actual stepbrother. And it's just, I'm sitting there being like, there's a lot of fraternal struggle going on here. And then of course you've got the motherly and the maternal thing. And I think, I feel like they painted themselves into a corner. They did so well with Cassina Rial, right? It's this prequel, where do we go from it? And I sat there and I was like, then give me my one-off missions. Like now that he's an agent, go do some cool stuff. But instead, they kept doubling down for this personal narrative and they keep digging and where are you going to go?

I guess it's going to be a brother here and a mother there and a child here. They've made it so personal that it's less about bond engaging in the world, even geopolitically. And it's more about the personal internal struggles. and trauma that Bond faces. And for some people, this is great. For someone like me who's watched all the old films, I don't like it that much. I'm just like, go do your job.

Like, I got a job to do. I don't want to see the guilt repercussions. I want to see James Bond just like anonymously massacring anyone coming his way without any thought whatsoever. Don't make me think that he's actually a serial killer and a psychopath. Yeah, and it's one of those things about even the notion of fun. Like the Daniel Craig era is just one big downer.

Yes, not funny. is it? No. And when you look at like the Mission Impossible films, they're positive and bright. And I'm just like, wait a second. Why is Mission Impossible? Why does it feel more like a classic Bond film than the Bond franchise? Like they really took a turn. They went the Batman Begins route. And they just rode that train as far as they could go. And I'm hoping, you know, when you talk about pivoting into the future, can Bond just do his job? Yeah. Can he have gadgets? Can he just do cool stuff? because that's as a fan, that's what I want to see. I want to see that.

Right? I want to have fun. The last couple years have been hard. Can't Bond be fun? Yeah, don't make me unpack this person for God's sake. Does he still do like the quips? Like the, oh, sorry, I have to put it down. She's just dead.

And like just those awful, like when you actually break them down, look at like, actually that woman's just been murdered and he's making jokes about it. Does he still do that? Does he make jokes? Here and there. He's not the most witty. And the thing that sucks about it is like, Daniel Craig does have a sense of humor.

And he is somebody, you know, who's got a really big, broad personality, but he's so moody and broody as Bond that we don't get to see some of those lighter colors and those flavors. And I feel like you get a bit of that in No Time to Die. And I'm saying that's all Phoebe Waller Bridge coming in and being like, I want to give you something to laugh through. And I felt like the first maybe third of that film, it felt like a real Bond film where I was like, ooh, okay, here we go. But really, in my opinion, no, and I love to laugh. So at the end of the day, I love quick-witted people.

The fact that you can think that quickly to have that type of response, I find it admirable. I'm like, wow, it's funny, but it's also smart. And I tend to laugh a lot after the fact. So I love that witty component of bond. I'd like to see that come back in full force. Just be cheeky. Yeah. Have those comments. Be an antagonist. If someone's going to be mad at you, let them be mad at you for a real reason. Go be cheeky for a bit. Yeah. That's what I want to see with Bond. A little bit brighter, a little bit more Atlanticish. Dad jokes with a gun, basically.

Yes. You know what? I think that's my sense of humor because I love dad jokes, but you're right. Dad jokes with a gun. That's what we want. It's just the spy version of it. Oh, yeah. I'm going to have to ask you the question.

I bet you get asked by everybody who talks to you about this. So my first question is going to be, if it was up to you, if the writing team came to you and said, We're doing a new James Bond movie. It's up to you to pick the woman who's going to be in it. What would you want for a James Bond? I'm just going to say Bond Girl, because that's easier. Sure. What would you want for a Bond girl in the future?

And also, the question, who would you want to play James Bond next? So in terms of a woman, I think we need a little bit more diversity when it comes to leading women in James Bond. Yes. We have a good track record, Women of Color and Oscars. would be lovely to add a third person to that. There aren't too many women from Latin America in the Bond films and leading roles.

That would be lovely from a diversity perspective. Somebody who's just capable and competent. And you want to know what? Before when we were talking about it, I was thinking of Wonder Woman, the first Wonder Woman movie with Gal Gadot and Chris Pine. And that is my argument for why you should develop sort of the partners in a film.

I liked Wonder Woman as a movie even more because Chris Pine was developed as a character. And I could feel him and I could feel the relationship and he was funny and I actually liked him. And so I was more invested in the story because I actually liked who he was. And it took nothing away from Wonder Woman. It actually added to the film. And I think that is a marker for me of why I want to see if we're going to have, if Bond is a man and we're going to have a woman in the film, build her out, make her fully form. because it only helps us as an audience be invested in the film. It doesn't take away from Bond.

And I think that mentality needs to shift. As for who should play Bond, I'm going to answer it with the philosophy answer, and then I'll give you my actual answer. Let's do it. I usually get asked, like, who should be Bond or should Bond be a man? Should it be a black man? Gay Bond.

Yeah, a gay bond, a woman. And typically my answer is, why is it that people want to see themselves in the character of Bond? That to me is the really pressing question. You know, this is one figure in history. Yes, a person around the world that people have connected to, what is it about Bond that we want to see ourselves in him? And I come to my response after thinking about this for a lot.

It's because for so many of us, Bond can do things that we cannot do. So for instance, Bond can sleep around with a lot of people and never be judged for it. If I was to do that, I would be labeled as being sexually promiscuous. I don't have the same flexibility and freedom as a woman that Bond does. So there's something attractive about Bond being able to do what he does. Bonn can get mad for whatever the reason. And just kill people. Yeah, and kill people. But there's so many people based on their skin color who cannot do that, who get labeled angry, transgressive. There isn't the flexibility and freedom to be judged based on what

you say or do and not based on who you are. And so what I think is very interesting is I think we're attracted to Bond's privilege. The fact that he has access to places, spaces, resources, he's important, he's never limited by who he is. Is rich? Yeah. And so I think a lot of us want to see ourselves in that position, which is why we oftentimes advocate for people who might look like us to be in that position because we're like, it's time for a woman to do this or a black man to do this and move it forward. So that's my philosophical answer. That's a good answer.

I've thought about it a lot because, as you say, I've been asked a lot. So that being said, I love Idris Elba. Idris. I just watched the new Luther movie and they're kind of making him a spy by the end of it. That man, I think he's a brilliant actor. I think that he looks the part. He's got the little mannerisms. Like, you know, Daniel Craig had the cuff links.

When Idris Alba steps up, he flattens his. tie. Like he already has a classic grooming mannerism. That would be great. And I would be fine with just one Idris Elbefilm. Give me my one and done. Let it be as flashy and over the top as possible. And then I'll be happy and we can call it a day. Will they do that? Probably not. You're right, though. There's a demand for it. We want it, don't we? We want to see Idris's Bond. He was so good in Luther. He's so good. Even the car chase. And I'm like, this is more exciting than no time to die. Please don't email me about that.

But I was so excited when I watched it and I thought, you know, he's compelling. And I'm hoping that there's more movies because like I'll watch anything with Luther in it. Fine. That's fine. You can make a six-part series. I'll watch it all. But it is a question of is it what people want? It's what I want.

And you have to also think in global terms. So this is not a franchise that only operates, say, in the UK, the US and Canada. This is a franchise like a lot of franchises that gets 70. of its box office revenue overseas. So there's going to be a whole broad range of considerations as to who bond is going to be, how bond is going to be. I'm sure it's going to be interesting and complex. I have not been asked by anybody in that world what I'd like to see. But this kind of gives you a flavor of what I'm asking for. So I think I'm on the same page as you, you know. You have just been so much fun to talk to. Thank you. And if people want to know more about you and your work,

and frankly they should. And I'm imagining now you're going to get a deluge of Bond-related quiz. But where can people find you? Lisafunnel.com. That's my website. I'm on LinkedIn.

I'm on Instagram. If you Google me, I'm sure you'll find a link to me somewhere. Two ends, two Ellis and Funnel. Fabulous. But this has been so much fun. I love talking Bond and doing it from a position of fandom

because, you know, I'm a fan. You've watched the movies. I have. But we can have some really smart conversations and still be fans at the end of the day. I love that. Thank you so much, Lisa. You've just been a treat.

Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. And thank you so much to Lisa for sharing your research with me. How much fun was she? You could just sit on her sofa with her and a glass of wine all night, couldn't you? And if you enjoyed hearing a bit more about Bond, do check out our sister podcast patented, where Dallas Campbell is looking at the inventions of Bond cars, cocktails, gadgets imagined and real.

But please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Join me again Betwixt the Sheets, the History of Sex Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit.