Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society - Cleopatra to Jane Austen: Perfumes of Powerful Women

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Why did Cleopatra soak the sails of her ship in jasmine? How did Queen Elizabeth smell? And why was perfume an essential tool of power for women across history? Whilst it’s hard to research the history of something that leaves no physical trace, we actually know a great deal about how some of the most iconic women in history would have smelt. Joining Kate to evoke these scents and what they stood for is award-winning fragrance journalist Suzy Nightingale.Here are the perfumes listed in the episode:Cleopatra: The Merchant of Venice Queen of the NightJoan of Arc: Histoire de Parfums Encens RoiElizabeth I: Frederic Malle Portrait of a LadyJane Austen: Commodity Book (Personal strength) Cora Pearl: Robert Piguet Fracas This episode is edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Discover the past on History Hit with ad-free original podcasts and documentaries released weekly presented by world renowned historians like Kate Lister, Dan Snow, Suzannah Lipscomb, Lucy Worsley, Mary Beard and more.Get 50% off your first 3 months with code BETWIXT. Download the app on your smart TV or in the app store or sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe.You can take part in our listener survey here: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? We'll sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles.

Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. People, twixters, it's me, Kade Lister. I am here to help you get through this podcast by giving you your fair do's warning. Here it is. This is an adult podcast book by adults to other adults in an adulty way about a range of adult subjects,

and you should be an adult too. I think today's fair do's warning is mostly around strong language, but, you know, what the fuck you're going to do about that? Let's get into it! If you could smell like any historical figure, who would you want to smell like? Would you buy Anne Boleyn's signature scent, or Julius Caesar's Cologne? Or smell like Jane Austen's favourite spritz? Well, some archaeologists think that they have discovered what Cleopatra smells like,

after unearthing remnants of a fragrance they think could have been the Chanel No. 5 of Egypt. They reckon that she would have smelled like myr, cinnamon, and pine resin. Pine, like Mr. Pledge? Surely not. But I bet it smelled better than that. But this perfume was found in an ancient perfume bottle, on a site believed to have been the home of a perfume merchant

from round about 300 BCE. That is an old perfume. It was rumoured that Cleopatra would use scent to announce her presence, soaking the sails of her ships in Jasmine so people could smell her before they saw her. I mean, that is a flex, isn't it? Apparently, she also seduced Mark Anthony with the heady scent of rose petals. But she is not the only icon in history who placed a lot of significance on smell.

Today, we are slipping betwixt the scented sheets to look at the perfumes of history's most powerful women. What do you look for a man? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning me. enough and pushing it's fun. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my beautiful time.

Goodness has nothing to do with it, Derry. And welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society. With me, Kate Lister, who, just so you know, is smelling extra gorgeous today? Sometimes it is easy to forget the importance of smell. You might arrange a date with somebody

who you think is drop-dead gorgeous and sexy, but if the smell is not quite right, and it works both ways. Sometimes just the scent of somebody is enough to make you like them. Smell can also be political. It can be an identity. It can send a message. And it has long been a tool of women in positions of power.

I am talking to the perfume expert, Susie Nightingale, all about how Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Elizabeth I first, Jane Austen, and Cortezan Cora Pearl would have smelled. I hope that you enjoy this one as much as I did. Welcome to Bed Twix the Sheets. It's only Susie Nightingale. How are you doing? I'm really good. I'm very excited about this. You know as excited as I am. For every episode, my producers, today's producer is lovely Charlotte. She puts together some notes so I know who I'm talking to and kind of what their expertise is. And next to your name, she has put Susie Nightingale, brackets, who is so cool. I'll take that. I'm going to put that on my CV in fact. So there's no pressure.

No pressure. I'm just, I'm cool. That is at the very top of the notes that I've got about you is that you are so cool. Well, Charlotte is very sweet. We had a little pre-record meeting yesterday and it kind of turned into a semi-consultation where I was suggesting fragrances that Charlotte should buy. That doesn't surprise me the least. She loves a good perfume to Shell.

And so do I. And so do you. How did you get into this line of work? Because you are, I don't say, perfume, jewell. Analyst, that sounds odd. It's a very odd niche profession and not one that I set out to do while doing my GCSEs. Yeah, I've always been obsessed by fragrance. My mum kind of got me into it. It's her fault. She's cost me a lot of money. We used to go on perfume shopping holidays when I was a little girl to Jersey because it was duty-free. And I used to go into these sort of beautiful, darkened boutiques

and look at the wares there and was just desperate to be part of this world because it was so intriguing and mysterious. And my first bottle of perfume that I chose, I was allowed on my 10th birthday to choose a full-size bottle. And I chose Coco Chanel, which I don't think I was their marketing demographic as a 10-year-old girl. Wow. I kind of thought I'd grow into it.

I kind of just knew I would. And so I remember spraying it on that day and people saying, oh, someone smells lovely in here. And me as a 10-year-old girl thrusting my arm forward saying, it's me, it's me. And then looking, going, no, it's not you. And then realizing, oh, yes, it was me. So a bit weird. But yeah, it kind of went from that.

But I started out writing for a local magazine in Brighton and then tried to get beauty in there whenever possible, which they weren't very interested in, and then started writing for a few other publications. And just realized that my passion was perfume. So I'm very lucky to have made a career out of that. I am fascinated by scent. And I've got so many, not as many perfumes as you have got,

but I've got, it's such an expensive habit to have as well. Oh, my God. I adore it. But I'm also fascinated by the way that smell works on like a scientific level, not just like this is a nice perfume, this smells nice, but there's so much research coming out now about the science of smell and about how we engage with each other and the world around us in ways that we might not even be conscious that we're doing.

doing and it's just this world of smell. Absolutely. And I think it has been so undetplored and ignored. And I think really very recently, due to COVID loads of people losing their sense of smell. And that being one of the first early symptoms, the scientific community started to take it really seriously. I know people who've lost their sense of smell or were born without a sense of smell. And we're just kind of dismissed. And we now know that it's massively linked to depression, feelings of alienation, because we are so guided by our sense of smell all the time. and it's not until you lose it through a cold or COVID or injury or whatever, that you realise how much you missed it and how much it becomes part of the way you navigate your world

and your relationships with people. People couldn't smell their children anymore or their partner. They're worried that, you know, they could smell smoke and was it a phantom smell or was it real because that's parosmia, which is another smell disorder. And these things, like you say, have really only recently been looked at. losing your sense of smell or smell disorders is the first symptom of so many different things, including Parkinson's and dementia. And it's more than that, it's an emotional connection we all have. And that's now been scientifically proven because where we store our reactions, our emotional

responses and memories is right where we have our sense of smell. You know, those things are so connected. And your sense of smell is the closest that your brain comes to being outside of your body. So it's in the sort of bridge of your nose. That's the sort of the bridge of your nose. part of your brain is in there. I just think it blows your mind when you realize that and you really start looking into it. And I'm so glad that the world is kind of catching up. There has been some wild studies that have come out now.

They're not wild for people doing them, but the stuff that is now being linked to senses of smell is amazing. There's been a study that showed that people are born without a sense of smell have fewer sexual partners throughout their lifetime, that women who have a keenest sense of smell have more orgasms during sex than those. than those who don't. And there was one mad one a few years ago

that showed that certain smells can actually increase erection strength in men. In particular, cinnamon was one of them. So the smell of lily of the valley, apparently, is the preferred smell of sperm. So they're now looking at that for artificial insemination to see if they, because it helps guide them.

So basically what scientists, I love some of these studies. You think, who came up with that? And what fun did they have? because what they did is they traced shapes in perfume on petri dishes, looked under a microscope at sperm. They would just trace shapes in different fragrances and they kind of ignored them all apart from Lily of the Valley, which they just went mad for. They were loving it. So they just followed the exact passion of Lily of the Valley.

So there's something about Lily of the Valley that they love. See what I mean when I say random stuff coming. Who could have possibly predicted that sperms would have a preferred smell? I know. So bizarre. Oh my God. What's your earliest memory of smell? What's your earliest sort of scent memory?

Because the scent is so profound in memory. Like it's so evocative. That often like when you smell things, you don't even realize it is a memory until you smell it. And then you go, oh God, I'm back when I was four. Yeah, exactly. It's like time travel. I think really for me it was exploring my neighbours,

my elderly neighbors greenhouse and smelling sort of tomato leaves and things. because they would show me what was growing. And I just remember sort of scrunching up leaves and then going and looking at other leaves and thinking, oh, they smell really nice. And seeing what else around the garden smelled really nice. And, of course, doing the classic thing of getting loads of rose petals,

putting them in a jar with water, bashing them up and hoping for the best and ending up with a really sad brown sludge. But yes, I think children are so much more connected to their sense of smell than anyone realises. And then it's just kind of ignored, certainly in sort of Western culture, in other cultures they're much better at connecting children and as you're growing up,

your sense of smell is very much involved. But yeah, I think here it's just kind of, oh well, you've got a sense of smell and that's it. And then you might get into perfume, you might not. But yeah, I'm very glad that I have delved into this rabbit hole. I am extremely glad that you've delved into this rabbit hole because it's opening up a whole new area of historical research, which is the history of smells.

And the thing about the smell is it's so intangible. it's so difficult to try and, because by its very definition, it leaves no physical trace. So, like, how do you go about researching the history of smells? It's so difficult. Yeah, I mean, archaeologists are doing amazing things, and obviously scientific improvements have really helped. But, yeah, they've been able to recreate some ancient fragrances so that the ingredients have been found. And apparently some of them were still really pungent. So they would uncork these Egyptian jars.

and, you know, the incense still smelled great, which is just amazing. I mean, that is a long-lasting perfume. That is, isn't it? Yeah. So, yeah, there have been some amazing leaps in that recreation of smells. And I think to be able to smell history as well and recreate ancient fragrances, you know, you write up to modern day fragrances. There's the osmetech in France and they're kind of a museum of,

smells. So they have got all sorts of things that perfumers who train there have recreated fragrances throughout history. So they'll have found a tiny drop in a little bottle. They'll have analyzed it. They'll have recreated it as part of their trading. And now you can smell an Elizabethan fragrance or a Victorian fragrance or a fragrance from the 1950s or the 1980s that's now discontinued. And I just think those things are so important because it's part of all of our past. And when you start talking to grandparents, parents, friends about fragrances that they wore, even though that's not ancient history, they kind of come alive. And you hear all of these stories that you never would have heard of otherwise, because it's so connected to your personality and what you're

projecting out into the world, invisibly. That's so true. And there's a myth, isn't there, that people in the past just smelt of shit, that everyone just walked around just absolutely reeking from eye heaven and that people didn't bathe and things like that. Yeah, I mean, they'd have, I suppose, we would have the equivalent of a sink wash. But people did bathe for a long time up until kind of the 16th century when it was supposed that bathing opened your pores and that they were just kind of starting to understand germs and infection. And they kind of thought, oh, it's the bathing that opens your skin up to infection so you shouldn't bathe. You can wash, but you shouldn't sit in water.

But yeah, they still washed. Obviously, if you were rich, then the absence of smell. I mean, that's one of the things about fragrance as well. If you smelled lovely, you were signalling that you were rich. So you weren't just clean. You had got an amazing fragrance on, which would have cost the earth with rare ingredients. And you couldn't just pop your boots and bite.

You know, you had to have a quart perfume make it for you. So, yeah, it was a real luxury. And it wasn't really until the Victorian. era that fragrances became cheaper with the invention of synthetic or the discovery of synthetic in molecules. So it just opened up perfumery to wider classes. But very interestingly, I think that also changed how people wore fragrance and the strength of fragrance that they would wear because suddenly it wasn't so lavish to announce yourself with fragrance. In fact, it became seen as quite vulgar, certainly for women. So that is also kind of tied up in the political history of

women, you know, what was acceptable to wear, what announced you as a whore or a virtuous woman. Part of that was your perfume. I think it's still associated with wealth today, isn't it? Wealth and beauty and all those things, because that's what we're projecting out. And back in the past, people, they would have definitely not been as clean as we are today when we're like anti-backing the hell out of everything. But they were still. worried they didn't smell good. But let's think about like the Uber rich. One of my favorites, Cleopatra. She was known for a array of seduction skills, one of which was scent. She was kind of known for that. So taught me, if you were going to meet Cleopatra, what was she smell like?

Well, I mean, there are lots of stories that she would soak the sales of her ship in Jasmine oil so that you could smell her coming, which is such a brilliant arrival. What a way to end. How are they've? Yes. And she really did use perfume as part of her tools of power. Apparently she used a fragrance called Mendezian and some archaeologists and Egyptologists, including Dora Goldsmith, who's a brilliant Egyptologist, and a historian of science, Sean Cocklin. They reproduced a possible version of Mendezian perfume. And so they described it as being voluminous, red-colored, strong, warm. rich, sweet and slightly bitter with a powerful spicy musky aroma. So Egyptian perfumers were really highly valued. They were also part of the political goings on at court, not just perfuming things and making them smell nice. They had quite a lot of power. And so one of the first perfumers ever, in fact, I think it's the first perfume ever noted in a cuneiform tablet, was called Tipiti, and she was a woman, and she was also called a scientist and a political.

advisor as well as a perfumer. So which gives you an idea of the kind of status that perfume had. So she would have smelled of incense, definitely, because Egyptians used kiffy, unique blends of incense that would be burned in different temples by Egyptian priests, but they were also used in houses to sweeten the smell of the house. And you would waft your clothes over them as well as a layering of fragrance along with the perfume oils that you would wear. So I think she would smell of Jasmine and Frankenstein. and these strong, long-lasting smells. She didn't want a fleeting cologne-type fragrance,

not that they existed then, but you knew she was coming and you knew she left. I reckon she wanted to leave a trail. What is mandeasian? What is that? Is it a herb or an oil? What is that? So it's just the name of the fragrance, I think.

So it refers to the region that it was made in, I believe. Right. So Egyptians used all sorts of different ingredients, including lilies and mure. and honey. They were importing a lot of ingredients as well as local ingredients, resins, juniper. So they were burning these to kind of appease the gods and send messages to the gods. So if you wanted to send a particular message, you would use a certain blend of ingredients and then the smoke rising up would reach the gods. But also, you want to smell nice as well. So you're standing over

it while you're sending messages to gods. You're also waft in your dress over it. So you get nice scented breeze going. I imagine Cleo would need a perfume with a lot of what's called projection. You can smell it at a distance. Because I don't think that you'd be able to get super close to her to give her a sniffing. Just the average person. Yeah, I think she would have sort of burning incense along with her. So not only soaking your sails in jasmine oil, but yeah, people sort of carrying incense

that was burning somehow so that she was just cloaked in this scent. I can just imagine. In fact, so I had a little fun after talking to Charlotte yesterday and recommending her some fragrances because that's what I get most pleasure doing is kind of connecting people with the fragrance I think they'll love. It gives me such satisfaction

as kind of like a dating agency for your nose. So I think today, if she was about today, a fragrance that I would suggest for her. Go on. Would be the merchant of Venice, which is a niche Italian brand, Queen of the Night. So they have used a kiffy accord within this and they've also done a headspace of blue lotus from Egypt. So already it's up her street. There's saffron and cinnamon in there which

certainly the cinnamon was something that Egyptians would have used along with the incense and amber sandalwood, tonka bean and mer. So it's an incredibly powerful, unfortunately a very expensive for your fragrance. It's in an utterly stunning sort of arch piece bottle that you are going to keep forever, so I guess you can justify it like that. And it is, you only need a couple of sprays of it.

I did an event where this is one of the fragrances I got people to try, and there were sort of sexual groans from the audience, which I always take as a very good sign. Hellfire, that is some powerful smells. It is really powerful. It's a no messing about,

I own this universe kind of a fragrance. Yeah, I own you. I own everything around me. You're going to bow down and worship me on your knees. That is a definite upgrade from a spritz of Charlie perfume, isn't it? It's a bit, yeah. I read that Cleopatra used perfume to seduce Mark Anthony. Yes, apparently so.

Go on. Give us her seduction on her way to meet him. I believe that's when she soaked the sales of her boat. in Jasmine oil so that he could smell her arrival. And I guess that would just get stronger and stronger and stronger as she neared him. And, I mean, a lot of the women that we're going to talk about, they were so obsessed with their image. And we think that's quite a modern thing, you know, with social media, etc.

But these women, they had to make sure that their image was controlled because as women, they had to be strong, they had to be impenetrable, they had to be these powerhouses, almost mythical goddesses who were arrived on earth who you would worship, because any chink in that armour, then people would have destroyed them. So I think we can safely say that she would have made sure, damn sure that she was wearing an ultrasecti fragrance when Mark Anthony got near.

Scent is a chink in the armour, isn't it? It doesn't matter how good looking somebody is. Like they could be the most beautiful, the most gorgeous. And if they get near you and if they smell bad, if it's like smelling of pits and sweat, it really does turn you off, doesn't it? It does, yes. I think that it's very difficult to get away from that.

And yeah, the other flip side of that is someone that you don't think is attractive to you. And you smile and you just think, God damn, you are sexy. I'm seeing you in a different way. I'll be back with Susie after this short point. break. Hey, I'm Don Wildman, and on American History Hit, my expert guests and I journey across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made the United States. From first flight to first ladies, from stitching the star-spangled banner to striking gold in California, to shooting for the moon with Apollo. We've got you covered. Catch new episodes of American

History Hit, a podcast by History Hit every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. Now Joan of Arc, because Queen Cleo, I would expect to smell fucking amazing. I would expect literally to be groaning in her presence. I'm just like, oh my God, it's so good. Joan of Arc is an interesting one because deeply religious, her PR team is very much, I'm a virgin and very religious and modest over here. I wouldn't have thought that she did have a perfume, but that might not be true. I mean, I think she probably wouldn't because she's presenting herself as modern.

and this sort of vessel of God and holiness. However, there are references to Joan of Arc and smells. So before her trial, apparently the vicar general of the Inquisition in France, who was called Brother Martin, he claimed that Joan smelled of heresy. He did not elaborate. Oh, okay. I mean, that sounds quite good to me. I think heresy is the name of a fragrance I'd be quite attracted to.

What would that smell like for you? I think actually it would smell very religious, but then subverted in some way, I think. So to be heretic, you've got to reference religion in some way, but then subvert it, I think. So it's a bit like the upturned cross of Satanism. I reckon she would also smell of incense. I mean, incense was used in her era a lot as well to sort of fumigate and make places smell nice along with herbs. But then that was used in churches and brothels. Everyone was using that incense, and it wasn't necessarily an ultra-holy smell.

It had to have a darker side. So again, they were using frankincet's, mure, balsams, sandalwood, an ingredient called mastic, which is bitumen, we might know as now, which is sort of piney and woody and can be even floral in a fragrance. I reckon she would have smelled of incense and something holy, but then because people doubted her, because she was smelling of incense and holiness, in their minds, she must be a her heretic. So therefore, you know, a lot of people called her a witch. And witches are very often referenced throughout history as well of smelling of incense. So it's that kind of all you think they're holy, but they're not, they're evil, and that's how they get you.

That's how they reel you in. But really interestingly, so when I was doing a bit of research, and I thought there's got to be more, there's got to be more. And there were some remains that were worshipped as holy relics, sacred relic. of Joan of Ork, which fairly recently they've discovered are not, and they were actually bits of an Egyptian mummy. So again, probably smelling of incense. But the way that one of the tests that they use to determine this, apart from normal ageing methods, was French researchers employing perfumers to smell the remains. Which, what a job. What a job. Never a dull day. So the labelled remains were that they were found under the stake of Joan of Arc, Virgin of Orleans,

which a little bit too good to be true on that label, I'm afraid, because yeah, they were not, but apparently they smelled of vanilla and plaster. Now, vanilla is a really interesting smell because if you go into an old bookshop, a lot of people love that smell. I adore that smell. And that's vanilla in the paper, along with lignin, another ingredient in paper. When it breaks down, kind of smells vanilla-y, And that smell, if you also pump it into bookshops, there have been studies. People buy more books, like massively increased sales of books if you pump that smell into a bookshop.

And it also happens when human flesh breaks down. Oh. So, yeah, it's that kind of sweetness that people often report of rotting bodies. I've heard that, yeah. And it can obviously go really sickly and, yeah, nobody really wants the smell of rotting bodies, probably. But, yeah, that vanilla smell. So let's think her fragrance would be some vanilla and maybe something slightly rotten

to the noses of other people who smelt her but this sort of holy incense as well. See, I would have thought that Jod of Aks Remains would have smelt like charcoal. Yeah, you would, wouldn't you? Yeah, I think there was the sort of smell of smoke as well but I guess if you've set fire to an Egyptian mummy and jammed it in a jar

is going to have that effect. But I mean, Egyptian mommies have not been treated but respect through most of history, have they? So I'm sure you know, but they were used in paint in Victorian times. They were sort of ground down and you could have Egyptian mummy as your pharaoh and ball paint colour of the day. They were used as fuel for trains. What were they thinking?

I know. Yeah, I mean, I guess they found a lot of them. They must have found loads of them to have fuel for trains. But also they were ground down and used as medicine because it believed they could prolong your life. No, honestly, the Victorians did a lot of stuff. silly things. They did. What fragrance would you recommend for Joan of Arc, for the lovely Joan? I mean, I was going to go really literal and smoky. And in fact, when I was looking online,

there are loads of fragrances inspired by Joan of Arc. I mean, there's fragrances inspired by everything, including stiltern cheese. So, you know, I'm not surprised. But there were also candles inspired by Joan of Arc. And I kind of feel that's slightly ironically macaw. Bobber. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to set fire to this and think of Joan. The fragrance that I actually chose for her,

it is an incense one, but it's quite a naughty one. And I don't, I, maybe she wouldn't have worn this, but I think it's how I think heresy would smell like. Okay. So it's Histoire de perfume, encense ores. So royal incense. Histoire de perfume en sans au revoir. I'll send you the names of all these afterwards.

Thank you, please. I'm not going to spell that properly. And this is, I mean, they call it a mysterious whisper between the hallowed purity of frankincense and the mystical warmth of precious balsams. Encinsoirroix is an ode to the most scented and ancient of offerings. It's got kind of white chocolate in there as well, which sounds a bit weird. But with the incense, this sort of cold, it makes you think of churches and cold flagstones and that it's raining outside and there's a thunderstorm and there's kind of electricity in the air. That's what I feel when I'm wearing it. But then this weird sweetness,

you know, that sort of vanillay sweetness beneath it and is she rotten within? A lot of saints have are associated with smells and sweet smells, aren't they? I think she'd have rocked that perfume. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I would recommend it to her, definitely. I think she should try a sample,

get a travel size, love, and give it a go. Right. I would have recommended replicas by the fireside, but that might be a bit on the nose. You'd have to catch her in the right mood, I think, for that. She'd have to be, maybe a couple of glasses, wind down. She'd be all right with that. She might question, why are you giving me this? And then you'd have to go, oh, never mind, don't you'll find out. Let's skip over that.

I'm just going to leave the perfume recommending to you. I mean, Joan of Arc's a tough one to choose for, so I think you've smashed that out of the park. Let's think about another queen. Let's think about Elizabeth I first, because she strikes me as a woman who would have seriously cared about what she smelled like. Absolutely. I mean, talking about images, everything, her image was so controlled. And yeah, I'm sure you know, and your listeners know as well, but, you know, she sent out portraits for people to hang, which is kind of, yeah, her Instagram pick of the day, she'd send out lots of filters added. So that people thought, yeah, that's what she looks like. You know, she's the Virgin Queen and she is a goddess. You know, another woman who was basically

sort of sent to earth to save us. That's how she wanted to appear. And all of those portraits so carefully manipulated and controlled and the symbolism within that. So 100% her fragrance would also have been incredibly carefully chosen. I mean, she did set trends for fragrance as well. So Musk was really popular in that era and Rose. And there are existing contemporary recipes that were called Queen's Delight, which sounds like a euphemism for something else for us me. But yeah, so the recipe was, if you want to write this down and make it up, at home. Take a quarter of a pound of damask rose buds, cut clean from the whites, stamp them very small, put to them a good spoonful of damask rose water to let them stand clothes

stopped all night, then take one ounce and a quarter of benzarin, finely beaten, and also seared, if you will, 20 grains of civet, so that's from the civet cat ball sack, basically, and 10 grains of musk mingle there with the roses, beating them well together, make it up into a little cake between rose leaves and dry them between sheets of paper. So a lot of perfumes weren't worn on the skin during that era. You'd have pommanders. You'd have sort of things soaked in perfume that we'd wear about your clothes. And Elizabeth I first really popularized and made pommanders really fashionable because it was also a jewelry. So you couldn't just smell the fragrance. You could see this elaborate pommander brooch or necklace hanging from her neck. And she's very often shown with these in her

portraits. So they would have used ingredients like the damask rose and the benzarin in the musk. Also labdinum and galangal, which actually smells really strongly like Vicks paper rub. Oh! I mean, it's going to clear your senses, definitely. It would. Pine. And calamus root has a kind of cake batter smell. You can also smell woody and leathery and suede-like. So quite a complex blend of sense there in her preferred fragrance. Most fragrances were made at home still. She would obviously have a court perfumers and the entire palace would have been scented again with burning, different resins and different dried roses, etc. Herbs strewn on the floor. I imagine this as a time period where it's a perfumes

would have been incredibly heavy because this is where like sort of modern industries is really in its nascent and cities are starting to grow. So people are not smelling good a lot of the time as the sanitation is catching up. So in order to mask that, the smell has become incredibly heavy. Yeah, exactly. And there's such an influx of exotic goods during that area as well, you know, that have never been seen before. It must have been incredibly exciting. You've got vanilla and pepper, Peru balsams, cardamom, sandalwood clove, cocoa and spices. and just the excitement of smelling spices for the first time and then realizing that you could advertise how rich you were

by wafting these flagrant smells. And yeah, they definitely would have been really strong with something so different. And it's difficult to kind of imagine that now because we're so used to growing, you know, you've got those in your spice cupboard downstairs. But if you can imagine just smelling those for the first time and just being kind of rocked back on your heels,

like what the hell is that and how strong that is compared to, you know, some lavender and rose water that you might have been using previously. Some of the perfume ingredients that you were listed there that are still used very heavily in perfume today. Like when you actually break it down, they are revolting things. Like amber grease is whale vomit. Sivet, as you said there, comes from the bowl sack of a civet cat. And what is it that comes from a beaver's asshole? Is it colostarium? Castamium.

Castor me and smells like vanilla. How did people discover these things? And what did they think they were doing? Yeah, that is very intriguing, isn't it? And I do not know the answer to that. I think it was just such an age of experimentation where they're going, oh, what's that? What if we grind that down and eat it or spread it over ourselves or burn it?

So, yeah, I really wouldn't like to have been the first person to have picked up any of those things. Or just even to investigate the bullsack of an animal for something that you were going to wear. Well, if someone always said, do you smell nice? What are you wearing? Never mind.

I'll talk about it. It's a secret blend. It's bespoke. I am wearing the testicles of a civic cat and a beaver's asshole. This is so much. I know, but those things, I mean, if you think about it,

like blue cheese, who is the first person to get, oh, that looks rotten. That's so true. And it's true. And it's true. And I reckon I'll have some of that. And it depends how they're used. So, you know, Ambergris is actually a,

really beautiful, ethereal smell that just kind of smells of, it's more like a seasoning within a fragrance, so you wouldn't use a lot of those, certainly not now. And a lot of them now can be synthesized, thankfully. So yeah, we don't have to go squeeze in any glands. But yeah, a lot of these ingredients that you only need the tiniest, tiniest bit, and it just transforms a fragrance. And you can't always say exactly what it adds to it, but you know that if it's not in there, it's lacking something, this sort of magical note. It's just so fascinating. Yeah, who were the people who tried that and why?

And why? And what on earth did they think that they were doing at the time? Now, Elizabeth herself would not have been squeezing the testicles of a civic cat. But do we have records of what she smelled like? Yeah, I mean, it was the Damasque rose scented pommanders, really. So she was big on rose. I guess she was kind of the rose of English. England as well. So she's very often pictured with roses. She loved the musk. She loved the exotic

spices additionally to that. So she would have worn scented oils on her body. She would have definitely burned lots of herbs and incense. Again, you know, incense is just through the ages, really. But yeah, it's that showiness of wearing a pommander, wearing a fragrant jewelry. It's not only an invisible smell. You can have a look at how many rubies are on this bloody pommanza I've got around my note that's like the size of an apple. She wasn't into subtle, really, was she? No, she wasn't. She is another one, I think, who would have used scent as it's not going to be subtle. This is going to smack you in the face. Mostly because by the end of her life, I think all of her teeth had rotted out, hadn't they? So her breath wouldn't have been great. So she would have wanted something

that at least masked that. Yes, I think maybe a lot of peppermint tea in her itinerie. I think so. So what modern perfume then would you recommend for Elizabeth if she was to come to you? First one I thought of, and I thought, is it too obvious with the rose? But then I thought, no, just go with it. And I also love it. It's Frederick Moll portrait of a lady. So I think partly I was led by the portrait connection.

But this is not a polite woman who wears this. This is swaggeringly confident. It's extremely strong. It's ripe berries and spices. It's got tons of rose in there, but it's a dark rose. This isn't a sweet little innocent come hither rose. Ooh, I'm so innocent. This is not a virgin or rose.

Because while she was, you know, the virgin queen, she presented this image that said, yeah, you're not going to fuck me because you're not going to fuck with me. Yes. And, you know, we now, though, maybe she was having affairs left, right and centre. So you just didn't want to marry because she would have lost all of her status. So I think this is a fragrance to be.

be worn by someone who is rambunctious, who is not unsure of their reputation. They want their fragrance and their reputation to precede them. You know, it's quite dark with the resinous petulia as well in there. And yeah, I just think it reminds me of a sort of a box some woman or a woman whose breasts are on display, maybe with a pomander nestled in them with rubies and carmine-stained lips and an expression that just says. don't even think about getting closer. I love that. So you mentioned earlier that by the time we get into the Victorian period,

Jane Austen's not Victorian, but we're kind of moving through that kind of era, that things become a bit more subtle. It's not quite as, here I am, smell me now. It's a little bit more delicate. What was happening? I'm trying to think if I remember Jane Austen in particular, mentioning fragrances in her books. I remember Mrs. Bennett saying pinch your cheeks,

but I can't remember smells now. She mentions lavender water quite a lot. So it was very popular in the time for sort of soothing the senses. Because, you know, in those books and in sort of Regency books generally, women are just constantly having fits of the vapours and fainting or, you know, collapsing on hillsides and having to be picked up by men on horses and go and recover at their house and then marry them. I mean, it was just constant.

So there were vinegarets were really popular at the time. So if you're going to swoon or be overtaken by something, you would keep them in your reticule and you would wave them under your nose. Is that like smell insults? Yeah, basically. It's like tiny little metal boxes that have elaborate cut-out patterns on them. And inside there's a sponge that's soaked in vinegar but also perfumed oils. Now, they are obviously really, really strong. It was not done for women of that time to smell strongly of fragrance because that would just definitely. mark you out as a whore. Sex workers through history have been linked with animalic smells,

so that civet that we were talking about, sometimes rose as well, which is kind of ironic because, you know, the rose is seen as such purity, but it can also be subverted again. So really strong, civity, like dirty smells that they would soak sachets and wear around their nether regions so that your loins are giving out this smell of, it's kind of like an advertisement. so I'm hello my loins are here and they are available. I'm going to get one of those. One of my favourite sex worker history smell facts. It might be the only one I know is that apparently especially in France and across the medieval period,

sex workers were associated with the smell of lavender. This was because very, very poor sex workers were often lawn dresses. They worked in the laundry and would make up extra income. And because they washed clothes with lavender, they were often associated with that smell. In fact, in some places, lavender's, it's slang for a sex worker. Yeah. I mean, it just goes to show how there are so many contradictory things and rules and political nuances to what women should smell like.

Throughout history, there have been these strict rules, and there were etiquette guides that would usually mention, you know, polite women do not smell of, you know, strong smells. And you can only wear, you know, something very subtle. and you must just smell clean. You mustn't smell of over fragrance because you're basically announcing your naked skin. Certainly if you wear it on your skin.

So yeah, in Victorian areas, they would soak their handkerchiefs in fragrance. They might even fragrance their linens and their petticoats. But to wear a fragrance on your skin is basically saying, I've got skin. It's naked and you can smell it, can't you? Also, the strength of fragrance, you know, it's basically the invisible space that you take up in the world.

And we all know that, you know, the space that women physically inhabit in the world is such a political issue as well, you know, still to this day. But, yeah, in Jane Austen's time, she mentions lavender water quite a lot. Now, whether she really liked that or she was referencing it as a kind of, you know, oh, she's been overcome. So she must have lavender water applied and kind of slightly laughing at that ridiculous scene. We don't know. I doubt she would have worn a strong fragrance because we know that she was a. an observer of people. So she wouldn't want it to stand out, I think. She wouldn't have wanted to be really, really noticeable because her favorite thing was people watching, and that's what she excels in

in her books. You know, she's obviously, she's watched people a lot. You know, she's scribbling down little notes and caricatures of people, and she sees how they react with each other. So maybe she wore lavender water. I like to think that she may be in her. inhabited florists in German Street. So it's still there. It moved a few doors up, but it was opened in 1730. And really, you know, right from the

get-go is where the great and the good shop, including lots of celebrities. So it would have been great for people watching. So in their ledgers still today, you can go to their back room and have a look at their ledger. And they've got receipts from, you know, Mary Shelley, Beaumbrum or Florence Mighty Gale, Lady Emma Hamilton and her lover, Lord Nelson.

and shopped there. So maybe she shopped there, purchased some lavender perfume or, you know, treated herself to a nice soap. I'm a big fan of perfume, TikTok and like all the perfumes that come in. I'm trying to think lavender doesn't seem to be a big one at the moment.

Do we still have lavender-based perfume? You do. I mean, I would say it's definitely gone out of fashion. And if you think of, I always think of Castle gift shops, you know, when you're going at a Castle gift shop and there's always a blooming lavender bag, isn't there? Yes.

And it's just such a particular. particular smell and I think a lot of people don't like smelling of it now. In fact, the lavender production in the UK was such a huge industry and outnumbered the lavender production of France where it's mainly grown today. You can get some amazing lavender, like high altitude lavender is actually really expensive and it smells actually not like lavender very much. It's sort of very peppery and dark and almost spicy. So it can be used in fragrance. I think it's, tends to be used in inverted commas, masculine-style fragrances, you know, more traditionally masculine style. It is starting to be used more in female fragrances, but yeah, not as much. It's kind of gone

out of fashion. So what perfume would you have recommended for Jane? Because we can't leave her with just a dab of lavender water. What would you recommend for her? So I'm going to prescribe a commodity book for Jane Austen. So it does what it says on the tin. It smells like a book. Because I think she should, I want her to celebrate being proud of her writing and being such an amazing author that we still love to this day. But I think she would have gone for the personal strength. So the commodity fragrances are available in three strengths and the personal being the least strong, the less projection. It stays close to your skin. It's quite a private thing.

But I think she would have enjoyed that as well because it would be just for her and that she could say, yeah, I'm an author. I don't have to shout about it, but I know how good I am. And it smells, yeah, sort of woody, slightly vanillay, as I was saying before, the vanilla in book paper is the book smell. And it also has a note of black tea and a very, very soft musk that's like warm skin. So you'd have to be very, very close to her to smell that. But I think she would have really enjoyed that as a kind of her secret. That is perfect, perfect for Jane. Okay.

Thank you. I want to finish off by talk about one of my most favourite historical. women who was not subtle and was probably not someone that would have stayed in the background with a little dab of lavender water. Cora Pearl, but not the last courtesan, but certainly one of the most infamous and the last most famous quotas we have of the 19th century. And she really goes against this grain of like, you must be modest and you must be demure and yet nope, nope, nope, nope, cora was nothing of the sort. Tell me about this woman and what you think she would have smelled like I don't think she's subtle and demure.

No, I think not. I mean, you know, it's an invented name. She began life as Eliza Emma Crouch, born in Plymouth. And then, yeah, ended up in Paris. You know, she had a terrible earlier life. And she decided that she was going to take control of it and shape her image and her name. So definitely not subtle, definitely not.

I mean, she used to have the most elaborate dinner parties, 15 guests a night, we're told. And she would sort of serve herself up on a silver platter, decorated only with some sprigs of parsley. So she definitely wouldn't have had a close to your skin fragrance, I don't think. So I think her strong willedness and the fact that she wanted to announce herself, she wasn't ashamed of who she was. And she was an extremely clever woman, as many of those, you know, really successful courtesans were. And so I think that she would have wanted

tuberose fragrance. And I say that because tuberose in that era was absolutely, well, not forbidden, but strongly advised against for polite women to wear. So I think she would have delighted in wearing that and saying, you know, kind of F you, I'm going to mind the stink of tuberose if you don't like it.

Because it was such a, I don't know if you've ever smelled just Chubra's on its own, but it is so potent. It is a diva of a scent note. So it's a white flower. It looks unassuming. I mean, it blooms at night. You can smell it. And women were told in books of the time, etiquette books of the time, that you should not wear Chubaroes because it was believed to give you spontaneous orgasms.

Holy moly, wow. So I reckon loads of women went out. Chubberose fragrance sales boomed. That's a hell of an advertising gimmick, isn't it? Absolutely. Did you have spontaneous orgasms when you smelt it? I mean, Cheboreau doesn't work on my skin. It just goes really screechy.

And talking of divas, I often get with fragrances a kind of almost sound to the smell. And I know that sounds a bit weird to some people, but I think that there's sort of frequencies. So for me, very, very strong white floral notes like Cheaperoes are almost like that top. pitched note of an operatic diva that shatters glasses. Oh, I love that. It feels like that. A bit much for me.

I mean, I like a strong fragrance, but it's a bit much free for even me. However, a fragrance that I think Kora would wear now and would love. It actually came out in 1948, so it's not a modern one, but it's still adored. It's Robert Pige's Fraccar.

Now, this was made by a woman that I think she also would have approved of because it's the perfumer Jermaine Celier. who's just so fascinating. I want to write a whole book about her one day because I just think she's fantastic. She was ballsy. I mean, there were rumours

that she was a lesbian and that she used to see sneakers for inspiration, I know. And she did things like, you know, in the 1940s, she would send the runway of high fashion houses and she would send them models out in her fragrances.

And sometimes she would suggest things that they could wear as accessories, including like gimp masks. Hello? I mean, that is ballsy in the 1940. I would be ballsy now, and it was bloody bawlsy in the 1940s. Also, her male colleagues demanded that she'd be given a separate office because she was, in inverted commas, a difficult woman to work with. Oh, I love her.

She sounds like our kind of gal, I reckon. She really does, does she? So what was the name of that perfume that she? So it's Robert Peecom. Pige's Freckar. And it is another Devery fragrance. It is, I mean, it's very cool, I would say almost cold, standoffish. It's Baroque.

And it is not backwards in coming forwards. I mean, it will last all day. It will come into the room before you, slap people around the face, tell them to get their act together. I mean, it's apparently been loved by, among other people, Rita Hayworth, Bridget Bardo, Courtney Love and Isabella Blow. So it gives you a little bit of an idea of the type of lady who likes it. I love that.

Oh, Susie, you have been amazing to talk to. I think my producer, Charlotte, is right. You are so cool. This has just been so much fun. My favourite perfume at the moment, I've got two. Killian's Love Don't Be Shy, which smells like marshmallows. I love that. It's very sexy.

And La Labo's Flood Orange, because it's just so fresh. Oh, my God. Yes. So good. If you like fleur orange by La Labbe, I do suggest for you, Serge Lutant's Fleur d'Anger. That is a sexy, sexy orange blossom. I mean, it's beautiful. It starts off quite beautiful. And a lot of people have said that they would wear it on their wedding day, but I reckon it's more like the twisted sheets after the wedding night. Holy fact, well, that's me sold. Right. What was the name again? Serge Luton, Fleur d'Or. Right. As soon as we get off this call, I'm looking that up.

You have been amazing to talk to. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you? So I do a podcast called On the Scent, which is available wherever you get your podcasts. And I'm on Instagram on at Fragrant Maven and also at On the Scent podcast. Thank you so much. You have been an absolute treat. It's so much fun.

Oh, thank you so much to Susie for being so much fun and such an interesting guest. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just want to say hello, please email us at betwixt at history hit.com. We have got episodes on everything from senior sex to scandals at Hampton Court, all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delagie and produced by Sturie. Stuart Beckworth. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets of The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.